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Sunday, May 18, 2008
Robert Bluey :: Townhall.com Columnist
McCain's Global Warming Plan Threatens Economy
by Robert Bluey
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Exactly one year after angering conservatives with an amnesty bill for illegal aliens, Sen. John McCain managed to fire up the right again last week—only this time he’s proposing a massive plan to combat global warming that would have severe consequences for the U.S. economy.

During a West Coast trip to Oregon and Washington state, McCain outlined his global warming strategy, which in many ways resembles legislation offered by Senators Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and John Warner (R-Va.). Their plan will be debated on Capitol Hill next month.

Although he’s spent the past several months trying to mend his rocky relationship with conservatives by putting forward a market-based health care plan and vowing to appoint conservative judges to the Supreme Court, critics wasted little time going after McCain’s global warming proposal.

It’s not that conservatives don’t care about the environment—they do. But in the case of McCain’s proposal, the benefits—lowering Earth’s temperature by no more than the Kyoto projection of 0.007 degrees Celsius—would come at a great cost to America’s economy.

What’s in McCain’s Plan?

McCain, who previously teamed with Lieberman to draft global warming legislation, supports a cap-and-trade proposal designed to reduce U.S. carbon emissions by 60% from 1990 levels by 2050. He argued that such a system “harnesses human ingenuity in the pursuit of alternatives to carbon-based fuels.”

McCain’s two Democratic rivals, Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, support an 80% reduction by mid-century, a recommendation in line with the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The Lieberman-Warner bill supposedly would cut emissions by 70% by 2050.

A closer examination of cap and trade reveals the pitfalls of such a system. Even if it works perfectly, which is unlikely, it essentially amounts to a new tax on energy. In its analysis of the Lieberman-Warner bill, the Congressional Budget Office said the legislation would increase federal revenue by $1.21 trillion from 2009 to 2018—money that can best be described as a tax increase.

Several studies of the cap-and-trade proposal reveal its high costs. The Heritage Foundation last week released its analysis of Lieberman-Warner, showing skyrocketing energy costs, millions of jobs lost and falling middle-class income.

“The burden would be shouldered by the average American,” the study’s authors conclude. “The bill would have the same effect as a major new energy tax—only worse. Increases are set by forces beyond legislative control.”

The resulting higher prices for electricity, natural gas and home heating oil would send a typical consumer’s total annual energy bill through the roof—$938.63 more in 2030 than 2012 after adjusting for inflation, according to the Heritage study. Based on Department of Labor data, that equals about six weeks’ worth of groceries for a family of four.

The impact on the overall the economy is even more alarming. The current U.S. economic output of $14 trillion would sharply decline by 2018 because of higher energy prices. Even under the most generous assumptions, the Heritage study estimates cumulative losses to gross domestic product (GDP) would be $1.7 trillion by 2030 after adjusting for inflation. The total could be as high as $4.8 trillion.

Europe’s experience with cap and trade offers the clearest example that it can have a harmful impact on the economy while offering little benefit to the environment. Emissions are growing at a faster rate on the continent since the European Union implemented its program in 2005 to comply with the Kyoto Protocol.

Technology Doesn’t Exist

McCain cites the success of the 1990 sulfur dioxide cap-and-trade system as evidence that his plan would work. “The key feature of this mechanism is that it allows the market to decide and encourage the lowest-cost compliance options,” McCain said. However, there are important distinctions between combating acid rain though cap and trade vs. carbon dioxide.

When the acid rain cap-and-trade system was added to the Clean Air Act, the technology to reduce sulfur dioxide was already in commercial use.

There’s nothing comparable for carbon dioxide. The method, known as carbon capture and sequestration, is still in development. Carbon storage, as it’s also called, “requires capturing carbon dioxide from power plants and other industrial facilities, transporting it to suitable locations, injecting it into deep underground geological formations, and monitoring its behavior,” according to the World Resources Institute.

There’s no clear evidence that carbon capture and sequestration will be ready for full-scale commercial use 10 years from now. Without this technology, the goals outlined by McCain and those included in the Lieberman-Warner bill cannot be accomplished.

The so-called “green jobs” that would be created from the legislation are also largely a myth manufactured by activists. While it’s true that a proposal such as Lieberman-Warner would have a short-term benefit over the next five years, annual job losses after 2013 would exceed 500,000—even approaching 1 million in 2016 and 2017.

Manufacturing would be among the hardest hit with 2.3 million lost jobs in 2029 as a result of government-imposed changes to the economy. Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Illinois and Maryland are forecast for the biggest losses in the short term, according to the Heritage analysis.

Criticism on the Right

McCain’s embrace of government solutions for the environment represents a major shift from the Bush administration’s approach. It also means the country’s next president—Republican or Democrat—will craft a far different global warming strategy at a time when Americans are already feeling the added costs of energy.

“For the market to do more, government must do more by opening new paths of invention and ingenuity,” McCain said in Portland, Ore., drawing a sharp distinction from the conservative philosophy of former President Ronald Reagan, who famously said, “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

Bob Williams, president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation in Washington state, said he was disappointed with McCain’s reliance on government. Voters in the Pacific Northwest, Williams said, would be leery of government’s attempts to “do more.”

“In order to implement McCain’s proposal,” Williams said, “government would do more by telling the taxpayer what size car they are going to drive; when they are going to drive it; what size house you will live in; and how much electricity you will use.”

He cited government policies that destroyed thousands of jobs for the Spotted Owl, ruined the Pacific Northwest’s fishing industry, shut down America’s nuclear industry and increased the price of food through ethanol mandates in fuel.

Similar criticism is reverberating with many conservatives, who remain skeptical of global warming. These conservatives care about the environment, but want to ensure that the tradeoffs made with legislation do not pose economic problems in the future.

“I have not faced a situation where a major Republican presidential candidate sounds just like a liberal Democrat,” radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh said. “This is embarrassing, and it is frightening.” During his Fox News show, Sean Hannity quipped, “He sounds like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Conservatives are angry.”

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About The Author
Robert B. Bluey is director of the Center for Media & Public Policy at The Heritage Foundation and maintains a blog at RobertBluey.com
 
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McRINO's just Lieberman in drag

Has anyone ever seen the two of them in the same room at the same time?.......



It's the sun, stupid
Unless McCain's plan includes reversing the naturally-occurring increase in solar activity, it's doomed to fail.

How bad would it be, really?
"The current U.S. economic output of $14 trillion would sharply decline by 2018 because of higher energy prices. Even under the most generous assumptions, the Heritage study estimates cumulative losses to gross domestic product (GDP) would be $1.7 trillion by 2030 after adjusting for inflation. The total could be as high as $4.8 trillion."

That does sound bad, but I'd like to remind everyone that the first figure is $14 trillion per year, while the second one would be spread out over twenty years. So you're looking at a cost of around $100-200 billion per year, approximitely 1% of US economic output. I'm no economist, but that doesn't sound so ruinous to me.

Lestat
What increase? Solar activity hasn't increased in twenty-five years.

What’s in McCain’s Plan?
It is whatever he feels will have John McCain go down in history as POTUS. Period.
Screw conservatives..screw the U.S. it all John McCain, all the time and that my friends, is straight talk.

So Chuckles? Where's the data???

Are you....
1. Impersonating an officer?

or

2. Violating the UCMJ?

duh
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/2008051517243 7.aspx

Oil is trading at record levels, in excess of $120 a barrel. Leading Republican Sens. James Inhofe (Okla.) and Jeff Sessions (Ala.) both told the Business & Media Institute (BMI) energy prices would drastically increase if the Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act (S. 2191) is signed into law.


How much will it be when the Saudi's get the price up to $200 a barrel. Their minister has already said that's where the price needs to go.



Am I to believe that McCain's handlers (CFR) really don't know what the consequences will be?

It's obvious to all of us, but they don't get it?



Someone needs to tell Robert , there ain't going to be a Republic any more.






Global Energy
Unfortunately, McCain is just more of the same lack of vision that the democrats have shown. No real world solutions for our short term energy needs, like drilling in Anwar, and the Gulf, and any place else that we can.
He said drilling in Anwar is like drilling in the Grand Canyon!! He is "stuck on stupid", we need short term drilling, and a long term plan without selling out our sovereignty to a global initiative.
We need "none of the above" on our ballot, when that category wins, maybe that will get their attention. In the mean time, nothing will change, we have McCain the liberal, or Obama the even more liberal. We're stuck with no solutions.
Mike
Hawaii

Crfooks and fools
Where has McLame tried to mend fences with conservatives???? All I have seen is a short speech he made right after nominally getting the nomination that conceded NOTHING. He continues to side with the Lamocdrats and talk down to conservatives.

And to all of you idiots who say there is no evidence for the sun we have posted link after link to scientific article showing a better correlation to solar activity than CO2. Evidently like all stupid liberals your constantly resetting memory has caused you to forget.

Once again, no reputable scientist believes this scam anymore. Only crooks and fools.

AGW + BIGGER GOVERNMENT = POORER USA

It's a real disappointment that McCain does not have a strong economic team that can point out to him the gallacy of AGW. Please wake up, people! These presidential candidates, whether Obama, Clinton or McCain, are on their way to ruin us all. Even if it costs 1% of GDP for the implementation of carbon dioxide cap and trade it's still a cost that I, as a tax payer, is not willing to support. Cap and trade is a non-solution to a non-problem. I'm afraid that we have a new slavery class in the 21st century: the US tax payers serving the whims of the politicians. Whether they are Democrats or Republicans these politicians are evil doers more concerned about wielding power and serving for the good of the citizens. This is the drawback of a two-party system. Both parties have morphed into each other. There is no competition for new ideas.

AGW + BIGGER GOVERNMENT = POORER USA
Sorry for the following typo errors:

1) gallacy ---> fallacy

2) "and serving for the good of the citizens"--> "and not serving for the good..."

Crooks and fools
Vic, you're absolutely right. We have a lot of crooks in the government and ex-government politicians. A case in point is Al Gore who has built a fortune ($100 million) based on hot air.

For more information on the fallacy of AGW I'd recommend the reading of Christopher Monckton's report "The cost and futility of trading hot air" published in http://www.scienceandpublicpolicy.org

King Abdullah want $400 USD a barrell
The King has already stated he thinks oil should be $400usd a barrell...maybe he is thinking the dollar is not worth squat!

McCain might have a revolt on his hands with the Bob Barr libertarian run and Ron Paul delegates lodging a protest because they refuse to let Ron Paul speak at the convention.

When McCain loses and Obama becomes the next Marxist Socialist President who wants to place a tax on the American people...I am not gonna get my blood pressure up....next time I will be listening to something nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AlESqqAZGU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUbI0m3BcaY

Global Warming BS
It's just a part of the New World Order.

Sam
You are not serving any good purpose when you make rash statements like reply #18. You just make it easy to believe anyone else who opposes McCain favors lawless assassination too. There may come a time when 2nd Amendment rights must be exercised, but an election is not one of them.

threats to

global economy and global warming.. threat. so does a potential invasion of iran yet nobody seems to be geting too excited about that.as fot the second amendment, wait unitl November and well see. there'll br some change made. by the way consideruing thr number of Muslim charities out ther ol geord w, may regret thathe paid so much attention to
his faith faith iniatives.

In Case You Hadn't Heard
U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007 Senate Report Debunks "Consensus"
Report Released on December 20, 2007

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority. SenateReport

McLame and Newt on the bandwagon of libs
The Three candidates forced on the American voters must be stopped. McLame is out of control and he will get worse ie. Global warming fiasco and Illegal amnesty. Hopefully his age will cure that ill quickly and we might get a resonable choice..Mitt Romney or such. Even Newt with Pelosi on the Global Warming bench was sickening. Our country is in serious trouble with these candidates..very serious decline ahead for all of us.

Where Do I Get A McCain Vaccination?
Political pundits say that my (so-called) friend John McCain will pick up the Independent vote. They think it will lead him to victory. They, like the Republican Machine, erroneously assume that supreme lefty Barack Obama is so distasteful that we'll vote for the less lefty lame-o they crown at the GOP convention. When only the liberal Independents and black-fearing Democrats vote for McCain (because the rest of us will be sitting home on Election Day), how will that translate to victory? And I hate to tell my (so-called) GOP friends in the Senate and House but those same liberal Independents and black-fearing Democrats aren't going to be voting for you, so you better hope Mr Obama has some kind of plan to lower the unemployment rate because you're all going to be looking for jobs. Sorry, but I think a dose of Obama will be better for conservatives four years from now than some Global Warming, Illegal Alien Loving, Tax the Rich (how you vote, not what you say to get elected), Don't Dunk the Sheik, Economy-Challenged maverick.

McShame's Poor Choice
Another dumb move by another dumb RINO Republican. The walking and talking idiot jumped on the Daily Kos, Hollywood and Soros bandwagon by his talk of adopting glowbull warming as part of his platform. He chooses warming instead of conservation and reduction of our dependence on foreign oil. By the way, do you notice that the path of Bush et al and Demos is along the same lines that Reagan used to defeat the USSR? Bury it outspending it. China, the middle east and Russia are doing to us what US did to the USSR during the Reagan era. McShame would have come out a lot better if he had emphasized alternative clean fuel resources rather than the Owlgore routine. I could buy that but not man made warming. If you examine solar activity and temperature and ice you will find a very good correlation. We are probably heading for a cold spell and it is related to solar activity, not more gas - a substance that has been around for a few million years.

Updated
The Maverick
Apologies to James David Buttolph, Jr. with lyrics by Paul Francis Webster

Who is the grey, old liar there?
Maverick is his name.
Preachin’ the word of libs to share,
Graham is his companion,
Amnesty is his game.
Smooth with the lies to the press.
Maverick is the name.
Pokes us in the eye and craps on all our best,
He loves that warmin’ scam,
For Teddy and him know no shame.

Riverboat, ring your bell,
He can go to h*ll.
To liberals he takes a shine.
Phoenix to New York City
He’ll tax you without pity
Maverick is a legend in his mind.

Riverboat, ring your bell,
He can go to h*ll.
To liberals he takes a shine.
Phoenix to New York City
He’ll tax you without pity
Maverick is a legend in his mind.


Thanks, Vic
Maverick is one of my all time favorite TV shows.

McCain is one of my least favorite, self-serving, SOB (stupid old Ba$tard) politicians. He pizzes me off every time he opens his yap.

As for the AGW nonsense, SINCE WE AREN"T THE CAUSE OF IT THEN HOW ON EARTH WOULD WE EVER STOP IT??? If it is actually was a reality, WHICH IT ISN'T!!!

Sorry for 'yelling' so early this morning.


To vote or not ?
I was leaning toward "the lesser of two evils" approach voting for McCain,but I just don't see any future "Conservative Revolution" unless It's the Democrats that screw things up for 4 years.

Remember when
Right after he clinched the nomination a reporter asked what plans he had mending his relationship with conservatives and his answer was "I will not pander to them". It seems the only ones he feels obligated to pander to is everyone on the left.

After he became the nominee I sincerely tried to find a reason I could manage to hold my nose and vote for him, alas, it just wasn't possible.

I guess it is going to be a rough 4 years but the light at the end of the tunnel is the backlash liberals are going to suffer after 4 years of another Jimmie Carter type presidency.

roadmaster
My pleasure

Sam
Sorry. You are correct that the 2nd, along with a lot else will be under attack. I have been on both sides of mis-interpretations before, and doubtless will again. Thank you for your clarification.
The last gun ban i sold 4 rifles with pistol grips and 20 round mags for 4 to 5 times what i paid for them. I just bought a couple more in anticipation of doing it again. If I'm wrong, its a good excuse to pick up a few nice rifles.

Education
Since our school system has failed to educate. or even teach people to read so they can self-educate, and the MSM has abdicated any educational function, only the University of Hard Knocks remains. Its a harsh teacher, but some folks will have no other. Some people learn from the mistakes of others (history). The rest of humanity has to BE the others.

McCain best cut it out!!!!

OF COURSE his gloBULL warming plan threatens our economy... and that's just the beginning!

He's already lost a significant part of the Republican base, and too many are going to vote, not FOR McCain, but against the other bozo, whomever that might be.

If McCain doesn't stop this gloBULL warming crap, his best bet for being elected will be if BHO is nominated and the HRC supporters actually do vote for McCain as many have already promised!



THE RISE AND FALL OF GOP CONSERVATISM

.....Reagan, Bush Sr, Gingrich, GW and now McCain ...

.....After Reagan the GOP spiraled downward ...Gingrich offer some hope but is was transient ...GW blurred the lines ...and McCain is selling us out ...Conservatives no longer have a Party or a voice ...

.....Both Partys offer only bigger government and higher taxes (cap & trade is an energy tax) ...there is only one Party that still stands for less Government and greater individual Freedom ...the Libertarians ...check out their platform ...

.....Read my latest blog entry "ONE MAN'S SEARCH FOR A PARTY" .....COLOSSUS

Anne

Amazing isn't it? In one breath this guy says he doesn't understand economics very well. And then he decides to introduce the largest economic plan in world history.

Worst yet. McCain has a better chance of passing this Global Warming (socialist) agenda than Barack Obama.

It's as if the Republican leadership is telling us to vote for Barack? Are they that out of touch?

Anne
Good morning. Wouldn't that be a hoot--McCain elected by disgruntled Feminists. Or by disgruntled blacks if Hillary deals her way into the nom. My guess is that half the country will be irked at whoever loses in November, and within a year those who voted for the winner will join them. Like Sam says, buy gold.

THE UPSIDE OF C02 EMISSIONS


.....Has anyone considered that this insane quest to
limit CO2 emissions might actually harm the Planet?
...plants need CO2 to thrive ...are we trying to
starve our Flora? ...a warmer Planet means a longer
growing season and thus more crops ...the melted
glaciers release trapped water into the atmosphere to
create more rainfall thus ending droughts ...

.....More rain, a longer growing season and growing
more food in Northern Latitudes sounds like a good
thing to me .....COLOSSUS

Marxist, Mercantilist Monopoly of Carbon
Today’s would be aristocrats are trying to institute a new lucrative measure of control and rationing; carbon credits. In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy, Barack Obama and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite. ( Also include Senator McCain in this attempt to bbe a Commissar of Combustion_

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen.

The GOP will not exist next year
You can't be taken seriously as a major party with registrations which may very well sink to below 20%. As it is, the RNC doesn't even have enough money to pay for the convention. Maybe they'll hold it Mexico where it is much less expensive and election laws don't prevent their goverment from paying for it.

Cap and Trade
Your republicans push incentives. That is what cap and trade is about. The companies that can reduce their Co2 emissions are rewarded for it, and money can be used to protect forests that absorb C02, especially those in Indonesia that are being leveled to provide lumber for furniture in the US.
Action must be taken to reduce C02 emissions. C02 absorbed by the oceans has turned their waters acidic, bad news for coral reefs and the tiny plankton that makes up the food chain in all the oceans.

The mid west has been battered with heavy down pours, and numerous Tornadoes. Farmers still cant get into the fields to plant the corn. My home in southwest missouri, tornado alley has been hammered with more tornadoes this spring that the total of the last 5 years. In this heart land my friend overheard this conversation as neighbors surveyed the destruction. "Yep I suppose they are going to try to tell us now that this isn't caused by climate change"!.
The train has left the station. Both Bush and McCain now call for action to reduce C02 emissions.

Frey
Perhaps I can put this into the right perspective for you. This years federal deficit, when factoring in the recent rebate stimulate, and the supplemental bill for the Iraq war, is pushing %500 billion on expenditures of $3.2 trillion. McCain, so far, has indicated that he wants to expand military spending, and his market solution for health care is to provide a $2500 individual and $5000 family tax credit. (This does not include all the small promises made). The projected $100 billion to $200 billion cost of this program must be added to the $100 billion or so it will cost to grow the military. Then, the reduced tax revenue that will come from enabling all working people to deduct $2500 to $5000 from their taxable income must also be factored, as that will reduce federal tax income by $100 b to $150 b. Then, we have $50 trillion in unfunded entitlement liabilities whose cost are now growing faster than revenue because the 75 million boomers have started to retire. So, just on the face of it, how does this work? At a time when we have had 8 years of chronic budget deficits that are averaging about $500 billion, McCain wants to add $200 billion to $300 billion in new spending, while reducing tax revenue by $100 billion or more, and do nothing about the rising costs of entitlements which threaten to swamp the system.

And this is the problem. It's dangerous and irresponsible for these candidates to go on proposing massive new spending programs given our existing deficits and the raising costs of unfunded entitlements mandates.

Global Warming???
How arogant of us to think that only 100 years or so of Industrialization would ruin an Earth as old and resilient as it is. Only the Liberal minded uniformed and unenlightened of us could possibly believe that CO2 will be the ruin of our planet and all mankind. All of them must have been educated by the US Government. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the political idiocracy also. Independent minded educated people understand that there is absolutley no way we could possibly hurt the planet with a little bit of CO2 in the air. If one would really think about what they are saying instead of being sheep, then they would come to the realization that it is just not possible. Let's try to solve our economic and social issues that we alone have caused. That is what we need Governement for. Not this babble.

Idiots....

baseballdoc

I like your thinking. You have chosen "critical thinking" in your observations. A difficult task for the "typical" global citizen.

McCain and Obama are "surface thinkers". They take another persons ideas, re-write them, and then claim them as their own. Neither possesses the ability to think beyond the thoughts they snatched from others. Yet, they each claim originality?

In the famous words of Dan Quayle... A mind is a terrible thing to lose.





Despising McCain
The man is a fool. Let's not elect him to the Presidency, folks. Jeez, can you put up with another four years that are worse than what W. gave us? I mean have we fallen so far that we are going to elect a man who falls for the makind is causing global warming hoax? The candidate should be taking his Gerotol and getting some sleep. Nothing worse than an old geezer trying to be hip. Whether in policy, or otherwise.

Fray incorrectly states...
"What increase? Solar activity hasn't increased in twenty-five years."

Wrong. Solar activity increased dramatically in the 90's peaking at a strong maximum in 2000-2001. The increased solar activity coinciding with temperature increases.

Solar activity has declined since 2001, also coinciding with stable or decreasing temperatures.

Pasadena Phil...

I just read that the Michigan Republican Party is millions in the hole. Bankrupt in cash, leadership, and conservative values. No one is donating.

Feel free to put Michigan on Obama's list of gimme states.

Frey
The impact depends on how you look at it. If you consider a figure of GDP per capita, then a $200 billion per year decline would be $667 per person of today's population. A GDP-per-household decline based on a four-person household would be more than $2600 annually. While this figure doesn't, of course, translate directly into INCOME, it relates directly to individual and collective productivity, and hence both individual buying power and collective production -- what is available to supply our needs.

The important point is that this is not a one-time decrease of that much, but an average decrease year after year. Granted, we expect our population to grow over the prediction time period, so the average decline per person would be less. However, that is not a mitigating factor, because with a population increase, we should expect overall GDP to increase. Instead, we would see a growing population and declining GDP.

Moreover, the hardest hit element of the business sector will be small businesses -- low margin entrepreneurs whose businesses create 70% of all new jobs. This will mean not just that retailers and small manufacturers are more likely to fail, but that independent entrepreneurs like plumbers, other home contractors, truckers, and landscapers -- people whose livelihoods depend on not adding arbitrary, non-market costs to transportation energy -- will fail in the tens of thousands.

There are many permutations we could consider. An annual loss of up to $200B in GDP will indeed be painful. Remember, it's not a one-time loss, it's GDP declining every year.

Thanks, Redlac
You also make an excellent point about attacking the economy from both sides: debt commitments and regulation. We can certainly never hope to service the federal government's commitments if we add arbitrary costs to all economic activity, and thereby suppress it in the aggregate.

I'm not sure even sensible conservatives have thought hard enough about the fact that the decline in GDP produced by the Lieberman-Warner proposal would occur in conjunction with a national population increase. Increasing population combined with declining GDP, over the next 40 years, equals an economic depression of unprecedented and catastrophic proportions. Neither the US nor the world could survive it in peace.

One-world Plantation or Gulag
The Democrats have fettered our factories and businesses with fines, diktats, regulations and restrictions. They have betrayed the unions and become paid servants of the Europe and Chinese corporations that ruin American Industries by environmental restrictions.
Meanwhile, the "let them eat cake" Republicans force American businesses to compete with companies that not only have low wages, but no health care, social security, compensation and other cost. I can only conclude this is done to benefit Americans who have become business partners with Communist China and are part owners of the foreign factories that put Americans out of work. It is the international plutocracy, including the wealthy American who control both parties, that invest in the third world to sell in the First world. This is the agenda of Senators Obama, Clinton and John McCain. Hey brother can you spare a dime?
In the Middle Ages there were competing classes or “estates. There were the 1) ecclesiastical clerics, 2) The nobility , 3) the Monarch and his appointed court officials and 4) the wealthy bankers and merchants. Membership in the new Progressive Parliamentary House of Lords is by utter devotion to the Party and its Sybaritic Socialist agenda. . Business that support the claim of the political Estate will be awarded chartered monopolies, lots of carbon credits,.
The Republicans are equally supportive of an aristocracy, but their primary landed gentry caste will be the wealthy plutocrats.
We the people end up with a choice of whether we wish to be subservient proletariat to a one-world politburo or whether we are serfs and peasants in a neo-Confederate plantation or hacienda extending from Columbia to Canada. Mike Guy


Sorry Robert
There is indeed plenty of data to support "sun as cause" statement.

Data over the last 300 years show a strong correlation between solar activity and Northern Hemisphere temp, arctic temp, global temp, U.S. temp, sea levels and glacier shrinkage.

The data does NOT show a correlation with CO2.

See
http://www.oism.org/pproject/GWReview_OISM150.pdf for references.


Rationing for Rationing's sake
In his Oregon speech, per the AP story, McCain said he'd do "cap and trade" (i.e. energy rationing) even if the anthrogenic CO2 induced climate change (ACO2ICC) hypothesis was PROVEN false. He thinks energy rationing is the right thing to do in & of itself. Al Gore never dared propose such a radical thing openly & boldly. Go back to the 2000 campaign & see.

This is how so many federal initiatives go so far out of control & threaten us like packs of feral dogs; they are never coupled legally or logically to the alleged problems they ostensibly were created to address. E.g. the Endangered Species Act that has been leveraged into an imperative to ration the right to generate CO2, based on armwaving. Did anyone seriously imagine the ESA would come to mean such a thing?

This is not & never was about ACO2ICC, but about rationalizing federal control of our energy use, comprehensive rationing & constant need of permission just to go about our lives. It would be a deadly new fascism, totalitarian control of almiost every aspect of the economy.

On this issue alone, Mack has demonstrated himself absolutely unfit & unworthy to be POTUS, regardless of the alternatives.

McCain's Global Warming Plan
Weren't any voters paying attention during the
primaries? If you didn't know where John McCain
stood on the environment, you were either living
in a cave or had your heads stuck in the sand.
Let's especially thank the smart New Hampshire
voters who trudged through the blizzards to
vote for Mr. "global warming".
Let us also thank the rabid neo-socialist
evangelicals and their false gospel of "saving
the planet".
No candidate ever specifies what kind of won-
derful new jobs they'll create with their "green" policies or if we will even want
them: my guess is that beyond making us be
rickshaw drivers or collective farm workers,
they haven't a clue.

Broken window economics
I have a personal perspective on this myth of broad government restrictions & control leading to innovation & opportunity.

When I left college, I got a job in the chemical "solid" waste field. I thought it had tremendous potential for innovation, recovery and safe destruction of waste. Trouble is, the government couldn't set policies & stick to them; the goalposts were constantly moved, more & more paperwork & bureaucracy, investments trashed because new standards obsoleted them. Finally the emerging philosophy was that they didn't want to deal with hazardous waste but to simply not create any (i.e. shut down industry by constipating it to death).

By the same token, I suspect any serious attempt to actually manufacture energy in compliance with this new regime will be a lost cause, as it will constantly be jerked around. The elites' REAL goal is to ration people's energy & make them do without, & that's where this will head, regardless of what anyone comes up with.

You know the elite simply want to kill something off (like the private energy industry & free access to energy) when they propose a lot of onerous open-ended restrictions & then simply drop it in the lap of industry to try to "innovate" its way around fluid constantly changing restrictions, need for constant mother-may-I permission, & uppity activists given veto power. When they do want something to happen, they subsidize it, e.g. ethanol.

Mack is a lost cause. Vote, but vote independent, & get the word to your Congressperson. This stuff needs an open honest debate & exam, not rubberstamping by a bunch of leftists & spineless wonders.

chicaree, it may interest you to know...
If you're so concerned about too much CO2 in the oceans, it may interest you to know that the amount of CO2 in the ocean is determined by the solubility of CO2 in water, which is inversely proportional to temperature. That means that warmer air temperatures will remove CO2 from the oceans and colder temperatures will increase ocean CO2.

Also, statistical analysis shows that the frequency of severe tornados has declined over the past 60 years. - Data from U.S. National Climatic Data Center.

Robert, your reply is irrelevant
You statement, "Solar activity is at an all time low.there is not solar activity NOW that corelates with a CO2 increase." has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You simply built a straw man and knocked it down. My comment to you said nothing about CO2 and solar activity. In fact, it says that there isn't a correlation (at least not on a hundred year time scale.)




I suspect that we are in...
a game of "Rope A Dope" and we are loosing. I cannot debate the scientific data because it is impossible to get a real answer. Truth being relative to whose lips are moving.

Therefore, my gut tells me that the GMan has arrived at our door and as always is the case when that happens, he is not here to help us.

While we are debating things like climate change and the affordability of health care, we are being led around by our noses at the whims of who is in control of oil worldwide and what their reasons are for soaking us at the gas pump. I have a feeling that we are being sold into slavery and paying for the privilege of being enslaved.

When it comes to our ability to provide for our families, who wins the Presidency will not make a difference no matter who it is.

Tax payers all, no matter political ideology need to take a hard look and decide how much more we can pay for.

Make no mistake, oil prices will continue to control our lives and if we don't demand some fiscal responsibility from government the American taxpayer will have to go on the endangered species list.

TTAPS
Have any of you heard of the TTAPS study that was done back in the early '80's?

Why has it not occurred to these elected officials to use the information in the TTAPS study to deal with global warming?

Hey Chuckles, what's it going to be???

Leavenworth for impersonating an officer?

Or

Leavenworth for gross violations for the UCMJ?


Just wondering. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

we have the government....
that we have put in power. These few hundred people some 545 of them I think are in charge and things are the way they are because that is the way the folks we elect want it to be.

They continue to distract us by pitting us against each other along dividing lines. Doesn't matter what we are arguing about as long as they can keep us distracted, they can continue to do things without our knowledge until it is too late to stop them. Of course, it is always for our own good.

Anybody believe that?


SAVAGE response and diddy McCain weiners
You say...Wouldn't that be a hoot--McCain elected by disgruntled Feminists. Or by disgruntled blacks if Hillary deals her way into the nom. My guess is that half the country will be irked at whoever loses in November, and within a year those who voted for the winner will join them.

Never happen - liberals have no foundation or principal. Their perspective window is about 5 minutes behind and in-front of their little snivveling noses. Same thing with McCain supporters. Their masters wlll tell them what to believe and how to behave when it is expedient - and like the brain-dead little cowards they are they will nod their pea-brain capsules.

Same thing could be said for you "hold you nose" RINO voters who sell your very souls for a bowl of soup. The ONLY reason we are in this mess is because of YOU. You get what you deserve. I cyber-spit on your voter registration cards!!

I can't wait until the day comes when things go revolutionary. I will go ISLAM on your sorry little existance...you socialist libs and ignorant, no character or integrity hold your nose voters.

I've had it with you little pu$$ys running my life through government.

So, which is it, Chuckles....


1. Impersonating an officer?

or

2. Violation of the UCMJ?



I'd really appreciate it if you'd answer... People are emailing me wanting to know why you won't answer such a simple question, and my email is getting full.....

C'mon, Either answer the question, or let us know why you won't.


someone in the room ...
seems to be trying to say something but that stain of arrogance on his character is drowning him out.


CHICAREE
Respectfully, you need to study economics: try Dr. Thomas Sowell's works, start with his Econ 101, and go to the numerous web sites noted here or research yourself to see the evidence that AGW is a hoax and that CO2 is not a pollutant and it isn't endangering anything.

All you apparatchiks & RINOs posting at TH, don't bother, we're on to you and no one is converted.

Robert, Robert, Robert...
You seem like a nice, reasonaby intelligent guy. But you're still barking up the wrong tree. You keep arguing that there is no correlation between solar activity and CO2 levels.

*Nobody* is saying CO2 levels are driven by the sun. So your argument is indeed a straw man.

What people are saying is that variations in solar activity causes variations in temperature and the correlations between temperature and solar activity are very good.

As for Mars, I haven't done the orbital calculation recently, so I can't tell you if Mars is near perihelion right now or not. But if you want to claim that that is the reason for Mar's warming, the burden falls on you to show that Mars is at perihelion.

While your at it, you might also want to explain why temperatures are also rising on Jupiter, Titan, Neptune and Pluto. Are all of these planets at perihelion?

Thanks, JamieR
Thanks for the Wobbie profile.

My conversation with Robert is hereby terminated.

DrPaul: Chuckle (aka Robert, aka Wobbie,

and aka Roberto) is totally irrelevant himself...

He claims to be a Naval officer, while he knows NOTHING, and has been busted countless times, and at the SAME TIME, violates the UCMJ....

If you haven't noticed already, he has the grammar and spelling of a 3rd grader.

He's a narcissist, at best.... (and he IS being "watched!")

But, Chuckles and halD are our resident Town Hall idiots... so, what can I tell you???

You can't take either of them seriously.... no one else does...


King Liberal
You are truly in need of positive attention if you've now stooped to the point of looking to "Robert" for some atta' boys!

Just one leftist troll butt-slappin' another.

-----

As to AGW - it is the greatest fraud perpetrated on the unsuspecting since the coming ice age predicted by these same scam artists in the 70's.

There is zero evidence that the planet is even in a sustained warming cycle and there is absolutely no incontrovertible evidence that "man" has had any effect on climate change.

Science does not work by "votes".

And "man" IS part of "nature", BTW.

One for the archives!
I have copied & pasted Robert's Reply # 78 into a text file for posterity.

To my knowledge, that is the first time I have ever seen the fraud apologize for anything, much less admit a mistake.

Better make your own copy today - as his posts are likely to disappear at the beginning of the work week.

At least I got to witness it firsthand - there's little time left for him to post.

Chuckles writes: "Anne I dont know who

you are asking the questions of since there is no one by the name of "Chuckles" on the thread..."

WELL, OF COURSE the twit knows who I'm asking the questions of.....

OTHERWISE he wouldn't have come back with that comment in the first place.. HA HA HA HA HA HA

And, the twit answers to "wobbie" and "Roberto" knowing that it's HIM... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ... so he KNOWS that Chuckles is HIM as well.

So, on one hand he "claims" to be a Navy Cpt. while at the same time making public "VALUE JUDGMENTS" on the trend of policy, as established by the CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP” which is in direct violation of the UCMJ!!!

Bit of an conundrum there, don't you think, Chuckles???

So, what is it? Impersonating an officer or violating the UCMJ?


Chuckles is our resident narcissist:


1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.

2. self-centeredness, smugness, egocentrism.

3. Psychoanalysis. erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.


Who else but Chuckles (aka Robert, aka Roberto, aka wobbie) would EVER come up with such an outlandish fantasy as being a Naval Cpt. while violating the UCMJ?


get a grip, bluey
McCain hasn't even said what he thinks about the Global Warning "problem." he only says it may be real; he can't tell without more research.

I assume that would be impartial, by some government source allied with the scientific community. This hasn't the clout to commit the taxpayers as yet. He can promote it, but it won't have legs unless a larger part of the public understands everything and backs some official reaction. Nothing's carved in stone.

Variation on a theme
One of the reasons the "surge" has been successful in Iraq, is that our troops are embedded with and living with the people they are there to protect and serve. We have learned much from that association. We understand how these folks really live, their customs, the requirements of their daily lives and especially their culture.

Our elected officials are equally isolated in their plush offices, (Congressional FOBs) from the realities of the lives, hardships and burdens our own population face, as a result of their "regulations," that typically amount to no more than tax revenue schemes.

Our candidates for president show up at the local diner and declare their affinity for main street America. It is about time that those who hold the power of creating the laws that the rest of us must live by and with, be forced to be "embedded" with just plain folks. They need to fully understand the reality of the consequences of the power we have given them.

Consider the joy they will have explaining why the financial drain on those who can afford it least is worth the goal of a ".007 degree C" reduction in global temperature. They can further enjoy the lively banter of the reality that global temperatures are expected to drop for at least the next 10 - 15 years.

Should they fail to comprehend the consequences, our next option is to hand them their "pink slip." Maybe the next "surge" will be a whole new contingent in our legislative body.


So, Chuckles... what is it??????


One cannot be a Naval officer AND be in such gross and flagrant violation of the UCMJ?

Can't be both... they are mutually exclusive!

So, we just want to know which one it is...

are you 1. Impersonating a Naval officer, or 2. In direct violation of the UCMJ???

Having just a little trouble with that now, aren't ya... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA



You need a new example Robert
Re: Robert's Reply #88
-----

Robert - you need a new line. I've seen you post that same old, tired leftist talking point for months.

But I guess it DOES give you another segue to a "RBB", aka, "Robert Bush Bash".

Did you earn another quarter from moveon.org for that one, troll?

Do your bosses monitor your posts in real time?

I ask because you've got little evidence of your presence here since your latest batch of bannings.

Bye, Coward (aka, Robert)
Run away like always!

BTW, you show your complete ignorance of the definition of "ditto heads" - I thought you said you were a regular Rush listener?

If you were, you'd know what "ditto" means.

Just another in a long list of lies - what a shock!

ha, ha, ha....

Mack Thinks Rationing Is Good Per Se
TH lost my prev attempt to reply to Robert's Q re McCain's statement he would do cap & trade regardless of scientific proof or disproof:

"McCain has long expressed a belief in global warming, arguing that even if he is wrong, acting as if the planet's temperature were increasing would only benefit the environment if scientists subsequently proved he was mistaken."

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/05/12/ mccain_urges_free-market_solution_on_warming?page=full&comm ents=true

He also backed off on penalizing China & India for refusing to do likewise but still exporting to us, & instead promises "diplomacy" hee hee ha ha.

TH is just ungodly horrible operationally. Takes all day & 2 clicks to load anything, even w/ broadband. I have to use IE because it locks up Mozilla or Firefox now. At least the flickering epileptic seizure inducing ads over content seem gone now.

Every time I read "John McCain Master and Commander" I picture Lindsay Graham in a leather harness, dog collar, & leash.

Dan
I don't know how long you have been reading and posting here at Townhall, but in case you are unaware:

Do not be fooled by the poster known as "Robert" (among many other names).

He's is a paid leftist troll of moveon.org that is being monitored by the government for anti-American activities and impersonating a US Naval officer.

He has been directly contacted and threatened with criminal action if he persists - which is why you see him ignoring direct questions about his military status. He is viewed as a sociopath.

He has been temporarily banned from Townhall at least 7 times in the past week - and will be permanently banned in the very near future.

Any alleged McCain support is an invented smokescreen for his other leftist views.

Control
I see the issue as the left siezing yet another excuse to make the vast unwashed masses sacrifice even more comfort and loot for their benefit, not ours. Essentially they want to make us live like the Amish(no cars, no electricity, etc.) while they live in mansions, fly around in private jets, and ride in stretch limos traveling around the country reminding us how fortunate we are to have them to lead us to the promised land. Strange, but I feel more like a lamb being led to slaughter.

Primus54
Thanks for the heads up but I am well aware of Robert, I made the mistake of responding to him a couple of times, now I just bypass his posts. I suspect it would help if most did as well.

There does seem to be a group of liberal instigators that regularly post here. I made a conscious decision after jousting with one of these types yesterday, that it serves no purpose and is nothing more than an exercise in anger management. I will try desperately to not allow myself to engage them again.

Supply and Demand .
If ""Supply & Demand " Socilaist and Tree huggers(Mc Nuts) don't beleieve in and say is a Lie .
Then why is food prices on all Foods we eat and all our energy
needs 42 % to 1000 % higher than they were only 22 months ago with no end in sight but far higher prices while only America cuts back on our energy explorations and say No No No to enegry we have in our own ground and CURRENT technology like Nuke power ?
Is it that China , India and Asia (4.1 Billion human being ) are growing more in the past 10 years than they did over the last Century .....Duh !
I believe that our own Congressman in Wash DC and Global warming nuts are the worst enemy will ever have .
We can beat any NATION at War but this is a ENEMY FROM WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY .

Take your own advice.
Hey, I took you guys' advice and stopped engaging Robert. Then what do I see? All I've seen is 22 out of 24 posts by or about Robert.

Just a suggestion, but maybe you guys should take your own advice.

DrPaul
Your observation is well-taken, however it has become a little bit of a guilty pleasure to see how quickly some of us can make Robert disappear once confronted with posters aware of his true purpose.

Sort of like a cat toying with a ball of yarn.

Former warming expert changes tune!
Now a leading proponent of global warming admits that there are NOT more hurricanes due to global warming -- See here

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/scientist-shifts-view-on-globa l-warming/20080518143309990001?icid=100214839x1202415481x12 00096856

WASHINGTON (May 18) - Global warming isn't to blame for the recent jump in hurricanes in the Atlantic, concludes a study by a prominent federal scientist whose position has shifted on the subject.


So liberals are getting more conservative, and McCain is getting more liberal?@!?! How about that?

We need to lose in November, fellow real conservatives. Let it happen, stay home or vote Libertarian. It is the only way to change things, don't let McCainiacs take us down 8 more years of liberal RINOism.

Part 1
There are several time scales on which to consider the relationships between temperature, CO2, solar activity, orbital dynamics and continental drift.

ON very long time scales (billions of years) there is no correlation whatsoever major Ice Age cycles and CO2. These cycles are most likely due to changing land masses which affect the ocean currents and distribution of heat.

On somewhat shorter time scales like millions or hundreds of thousands of years, we consider the Glacial and Interglacial periods during the present Ice Age. These periods correlate well with the Milankovitch Cycles which deal with variations in Earth's orbit and rotation. The change in solar flux due to these orbital variations is, by itself, not sufficient to to cause the observed glacial/interglacial temperature variations. However, positive feedback via the resulting longer snow seasons bringing increased reflectivity is sufficient to lead to the observed results. This is not controversial. It is the standard theory.

On shorter time scales (thousands to a few hundreds thousands of years) we see some correlation between temperature and CO2. But in all cases, we see that changes in CO2 lag changes in temperature by about 800 years. Because temperature changes first, CO2 cannot be a cause. It is simple to understand why temperature controls CO2 and why there is a several hundred year lag. It is because the solubility of CO2 in water is inversely proportional to temperature. When the oceans warm up they release CO2. When the oceans cool, the absorb CO2. Since the oceans have a very large heat capacity compared to the atmosphere, it takes hundreds of years for the oceans to respond.


Part 2
On still shorter timescales, we have solar variability. There are several different solar cycles, typically on the order of tens of years. Again, the variation in solar luminosity is not itself sufficient to account for associated changes in temperature. However, increased solar activity is also accompanied by increased solar wind. Increased solar wind shields the Earth from cosmic rays.

Cosmic rays have been shown to aid in cloud formation. More solar activity, fewer cosmic rays, fewer clouds, higher temperature. This positive feedback mechanism, coupled to solar luminosity is sufficiently strong to account for all of the temperature change that has been observed and correlates with solar variation.

The fact that solar activity and temperature are well-correlated, and that nothing on the Earth can affect the activity of the sun, it doesn't take a genius to see that the sun is where it's at.

That's just about all you need to know about global warming and why CO2 is simply a side-affect.

Why is CO2 increasing now?
In an earlier post, I mentioned that changes in CO2 typically lag changes in temperature by about 800 years.

CO2 has been increasing recently. This begs the question, what was happening 800 years ago?

It turns out that 800 years ago was the Midieval Climate Optimum or Warm Period.

Right on schedule, 800 years later we are seeing the resulting increase in CO2 released by the oceans. It's so beautiful it almost makes you want to cry, doesn't it?

DrPaul....

Research shows that the average High School graduate in Michigan believes in the Global Warming theory (most will call it a fact). Research also shows that less that half of graduates can pick the "mitten-state" out on a map.

I think we have more in common with North Korea than latitude.

another nostradamus


Now it's Sam; doing his best to foretell the future.

What makes guys go out on a limb to predict the outcome of a national election in those uncompromising words? Sam out to stick to predicting the weather.

Frey
“ . . . approximitely 1% of US economic output .. doesn't sound so ruinous to me.”

Perhaps not, but it sounds more ruinous than global warming to me.

sam...sounds logical
perry..open borders guy...mc cain!
I said logical...not pleasing!?
elvis

Sam, C.Cassandra, Aslan
You guys are smoking today. Finally, some people who are getting it and addressing the fundamental issue!


"This is about massive human and population control. This is about our criminal government leading sheep for the slaughter"


"Today’s would be aristocrats are trying to institute a new lucrative measure of control and rationing; carbon credits. In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use"



The only thing I would say is that the democrats didn't think this up. Rockefeller may be the most significant engine behind this. It is totally bi-partisan and just about money, and power to get more money. A worldwide slave labor class.




"Who are some of the past and present members of this anti-American operation? Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, Porter Goss, Alan Greenspan, John Bolton, Paul Wolfowitz, Gen. Richard B. Myers, Henry Hyde, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George Bush Sr., Sandra Day O'Connor, George Soros, Christopher Dodd, Diane Feinstein, Gerald Ford, Bill Frist, Newt Gingrich, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Katherine Harris, Teresa Heinz, Antonia Hernandez – President of Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Gen. John P. Jumper – current Air Force chief of staff, Joseph Lieberman, John McCain, Rupert Murdock, David Rockefeller, Diane Sawyer and Tony Snow."

In other words the establishment.




more
“It is Kissinger’s belief, according to his aides, that by controlling food, one can control people, and by controlling energy, especially oil, one can control nations and their financial systems. By placing food and oil under international control along with the world’s monetary system, Kissinger is convinced a loosely knit world gov operating under the frame-work of the United Nations can become a reality before 1980” Paul Scott (in the 70’s)


Energy and Food!


“But if more nations achieved independence in food production, much of the impetus for world gov would disappear faster than a freeloader when the check arrives. In order for the Rockefellers to achieve their New word Order, first they must create famines and the fear of further suffering. All that is required to create a famine is to put all agriculture under control of gov. bureaucracy, then wait awhile. The bigger the bureaucracy, the shorter the wait, and international bureaucracy is the 'ne plus ultra' in producing red tape instead of wheat."


Shortages, famine and fear of more suffering? Coming soon the the USA. Rioting over food shortages already happening in other countries.


We shall have world government whether or not you like it-by conquest or consent. Paul Warburg (CFR member, before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Feb 17,1950 Also founder of Federal Reserve. He became a director of the CFR at its founding in 1921, remaining on the board until 1932.)


Our privately owned central Bank (FED) already controls the money. Here's who owns the FED


the Stock Holders of the Federal Reserve banking Corporation.

Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin

Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris

Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy

Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam

Lehman Brothers Bank of New York

Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

Chase Manhattan Bank of New York

Goldman Sachs Bank of New York.








and more!

“Before such a merger can be consummated, and the US becomes just another province in a New World Order, there must at least be the semblance of parity among the senior partners in the deal. How does one make the nations of the world more nearly equal? The insiders determined that a two-prong approach was needed; use American money and know-how to build up your competitors, while at the same time use every devious strategy you can devise to weaken and impoverish this country. (The plan IS to de-industrialize the US) The goal is not to bankrupt the US...Rather, it is to reduce our productive might, and therefore our standard of living, to the meager subsistence level of the socialized nations of the world.

Notice that the plan is not to bring the standard of living in less developed countries up to our level, but to bring ours down to meet theirs coming up.



We have only traitors to vote for.

I am also sickened by Fred (CFR) coming to townhall to shill for his handlers.


It is nice to see a few getting what is going on and not just usual rearranging the deck chairs over and over.

SICK OF THE PARTY and ITS HACKS
This party needs an enema!
Call when it is done.

An Observation
I try to read every article I can find, by authors for whom I have some level of respect for their objectivity, on the subjects of Global Warming or the pending energy crisis. More importantly, I take the time to read the responses to these articles. What is clear, is that the American people have had just about enough of using both as political footballs.

It is also clear that liberals are going to go kicking and screaming into any plan to drill for domestic oil. equally clear, is that Republicans will do nothing to drive this issue to the level of full blown debate, mandatory for its resolution.

From the level of absolute frustration I am beginning to sense from the public at large, both parties may get marching orders with a public mandate they can't refuse.

Go ahead and explode people, it is the only way we are going to burst the self-serving bureaucratic bubble that insulates our government from their real responsibilities.

Sam
I know. There are very few decent men in gov. Only a few.

All the patriots were marginalized from the very beginning. Someone I was talking to the other day said it's all a conspiracy theory...if it was true why wasn't Rush talking about it?!! Murdoch is CFR, Buckley was CFR.

It's global and well advanced. Guiliani's law firm negotiated contracts for foreign co to get toll concessions and the rights to build parts of the Nafta super highway.

They've been trying to get this done for a long time. When you look at the big picture I don't think it is going to be stopped. There will be no rebellion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3dAnSMzUlo&feature=related

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 57228


The bible predicts there will be one world gov. It will happen and unfortunately I think we are going to see it.

I have also read water rights are being bought up.


McCain is Supporting a Fraud
...The current political battle over global warming/climate change boils down to the fundamental issue of: "Does CO2 cause global warming?" Regardless, how can carbon dioxide (CO2) be a pollutant when there would be no life on Earth, as we know it, without carbon dioxide (CO2).

.....Carbon Dioxide (CO2) does not cause Global Warming because there is no past historical scientific factual evidence, data and/or records that link CO2 as a forcing factor or a cause of an increasing temperature rise climate warming period. Any current rising temperatures is not causation. ALL other global warming arguments are irrelevant, since humans are incapable of controlling any natural occurring climate change. Climate has and will forever change. There is no such thing as normal Climate. Enjoy today's climate while it lasts.

....Proxy scientific data from the past few 100,000 year 'Ice Age' terminations, reveal that the rise of CO2 levels trail the relatively abrupt temperature rise by 800-2000 years. This is the equivalent of 11-76 human lifetimes; a very, very long time.

.....There is scientific proxy evidence/data from past climate periods that reveal CO2 levels about 18 times greater than the CO2 levels present today; which were concurrent with non-rising temperatures equivalent of those present today.

.....Three major differences today, compared to previous climate warm periods are: (1) There are now millions of humans living in vulnerable areas where there were none before; (2) most of our current infrastructure was built based on recent or today's climate conditions; and (3)the presence of satellite worldwide media coverage to record every unusual weather event by the major national media and turn it into a major disaster.

.....The best that could happen now is for an abrupt short period (30 year) climate shift to cooling. That certainly would put an end to the current global warming hysteria.

Sam, C.Cassandra, Aslan

This will interest you. I bought the DVD called "The Money Masters". This is the transcript.

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/money-masters.html

Oh really, Robert?
Reply #125
"those remain lies that you cannot back up..."
-----

Sorry, Robert.

You are incorrect.

But I've learned from the "Robert School of Prevarication" to just put out "truths" and dare YOU to prove otherwise.

I'm not going to do your work for you.

hwm982xx
Well said.

Since solar cycle 24 is getting off to a slow start, there are predictions that it may be fairly weak cycle this time around.

On the one hand, that's good if it will put an end to all this gloBull warming nonsense. But who wants cold weather?

I think that, after the Ice Age scare in the 70's and this globull warming B.S. now, I don't think people will buy into another Ice Age scare any time soon.

It'll just be something else.

Hey Primus: Chuckles STILL has not

answered the questions....

Is he....
1. Impersonating an officer?

or

2. In violation of the UCMJ?


Wonder why?

wobbie writes: "I've met Musk...."


What a joke... I happen to know him... no way would he bother with a twit like Chuckles...


Game over, wobbie......

Are you
Impersonating an officer?

or

Violating the UCMJ?

Anne
Anne,Please check your mail...

Question for you, Robert
Do you still contend you'll "be here" a year from now?

If so, will it be because Townhall allows you to stay?

Or because Townhall is incapable of permanently banning you?

Global Warming CO2 stupidity
If you look at the Ice Core studies concerning CO2 levels, including the one Al Gore used in his so called "documentry" movie, they show that CO2 levels follow the rise or fall in Temperature by an average of 800 years. Given this there are two facts to consider. 1. 800 years ago the world was warming during the mideivel warm period. 2. Man's contribution of CO2 to the enviroment is a small fraction of the total CO2. What this means is that CO2 levels will continue to go up even if man stopped all CO2 production, but don't worry CO2 level have been as much as 10 times higher and the world didn't burn up. Global warming is a hoax designed to extract your tax dollars and make it easier for the government to control you. The best defense is to call government represenatives and tell them you won't vote for those who support this stupidity.

Ah yes, Wobbie claims yet even more
"fields of expertise."
Now he's an expert on Global Warming and Space exploration. On top of that he's now an OpEd writer for a magaizne on space exploration.

The list of your "accomplishments" just never ends, does it Wobbie?

I notice that you did provide a link to Space.com, even if you added a couple periods to make it unworkable to anyone who didn't catch what I'm sure you'll try to claim is a "mistake."

So how about now backing up your claim to have "Written OpEd's" for them by providing a link to one of those.

Bet you won't do it. Will you?
Undoubtedly because like everything else you claim, this is just another of your lies.

More challenges for you Wobbie
This should be easy, it's multiple choice:
Are you...

1. An active duty officer in the US Navy?

or

2. Are you just in flagrant violation of the UCMJ, and U.S. Law, by impersonating one?

Everyone
Good morning.

Stop by the Abbey, got some new parodies for y'all to enjoy.

Click on my name, or use the following link:

fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com

Slues...
Actually, it's even better than that.

Throughout the Ordovician Ice Age, the CO2 level was seventeen times higher than today.

It is obvious that CO2 is a minor player and easily overwhelmed by other processes.

DrPaul
Thank you for your excellent posts on the subject of solar activity and this AGW fraud.

I have copied them to a text file for use as needed!

Cheers!

remember in november
a clueless person like this should remain in his comfortable padded Senate chair instead of running amok in the White House.

Gorebull warring on the U.S.
The reason that so much of this planet has had drought for so many centuries is that we’ve been in an ice age, and the water needed for normal condensation has been frozen into glaciers. Glaciers are frozen water needed as condensation for barren and frozen lands of this planet, causing drought and flooding. When glaciers melt, some water runs into the oceans. Some water thaws the ground below where the glacier was, and soaks into the ground. Some water evaporates into the upper atmosphere where it becomes normal rainfall for the whole world.

The heat of the sun, and the absence of cold from glaciers and sea ice will cause more water to be evaporated from the oceans, lakes, and rivers into the upper atmosphere than there presently is; and the winds will blow it evenly around the world, providing normal rainfall world-wide, even where there presently is drought, and barren and frozen land, preventing flooding.

The worldwide rainfall will cause long-dormant seeds in barren lands to sprout and grow into new plants: The best way to go green. The new plants will inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen, which we breathe. There will be so many new plants, that we might have to increase the amount of carbon dioxide we generate, to provide enough for all of them

A glacier in Greenland is melting, returning the land to the way it was a millennium ago. Larger crop yields are already the result, and the codfish have returned. Put the UN there.

Snow fell before leaves, and a month before winter started. Parts of the country and the world have record low temperatures and record amounts of snow and ice. We’re entering another ice age. How soon will Greenland be frozen again and the codfish gone? We need global warming as soon as possible.

We have the capture technology.
It's been in operation for millions of years. It's called PLANTS. Plants inhale CO2 and exhale oxygen. It's a perfect system. All we need to do is let the planet warm up and release the water that is frozen into glaciers. That will end the drought and flooding, and allow plants to grow in the drought areas and on the land covered by glaciers. These trillions of new plants will inhale so much CO2 that nature might have to increase the natural supply.

ALgore and his partners-in-crime insinuate that a one-degree temperature increase will instantly turn ice into water and cover the world with 20 feet of water. This is BS. The melting process will take years, and much of the water will soak into the ground under the glaciers. More of it will evaporate into the upper atmosphere and become normal rainfall. What enters the oceans will do so gradually and not cause any problems. All we have to do is stay out of the way and let nature work.

The newspaper headline today says that warming cuts the severity of hurricanes.

Alice in Wonderland
As we careen down this unstainable track we are on, we can only listen in amazement as the two parties and their leaders compete only on the basis of who can pander more. Every sensible person knows that we cannot pay for the entitlements we have and that they will swamp our tax base, we know that we cannot add new spending of any kind if we don't reduce spending in other areas - but we don't, and we spend our time debating cap and trade and massive subsidies for ethanol, when the actual solution is to reduce our reliance on others for the energy we use, while strengthening the dollar to take it back to the levels that existed in 03 and prior. Europeons were paying 60 or so Euros per barrel then, just as we were paying $60 or so. Today, the Europeons are paying some 80 Euros per barrel, whereas we're paying $120 or so. But, not one candidate wants to take the action necessary to strengthen the dollar - so they don't. And not one candidate feels that they have the clout to combine conservation with the expansion of the use of coal, nuclear power, and drilling - so we don't do that either.

It's Alice in Wonderland time. And, since sufficient numbers of Americans are buying into Alice's new world, the rest of us are left in Kansas. The problem is, there aren't enough of us.

All you have to do is read Novak's column to understand how far we've gone down the spending and pandering track. The house and senate passed a $300 B ag bill which is 44% higher than last years. 100 GOP members in the house voted for, and only 91 against, and 35 in the Senate voted for, and only 13 against. And, on other matters, 32 GOP house members voted to raise upper income taxes.

And, we will run a federal deficits this year of some $500 billion, or almost 20% of the total $3.2 trillion budget.

BREAKING NEWS! - RULING REVERSED
Washington, D.C. - AP

In a suprpise announcement today, government spokesman Dimwhit Bumdas disclosed that the Department of the Interior has removed polar bears from the endangered species list. The move amounted to a reversal of action taken by the Department just days ago.

A somewhat sheepish Mr. Bumdas announced that "the whole thing was a false alarm". Questioned further by reporters, Mr Bumdas stated that "the reduced numbers of bears obsered in the Artic regions appoarently resulted from a large number of the bears stowing away in the cargo hold of a Carnival Cruise Line vessel and travelling to the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico, where the bears were discovered lounging on area beaches and raiding local fish markets".

Your Obedient Servant,

George Washington

Stop exhaling so much (part 1)
Combat GlowBull Warming hysteria! Breathe into anti-hyperventilation bags!

After calming down, investigate these factors and forward to J. McCain’s bus/plane/other fuel-burning vehicle. Many of you have seen these (because some of us have posted them before), but perhaps others have not...

Report: Nature, Not Human Activity, Rules the Climate
S. Fred Singer, et al, Feb 2008; Second printing, Apr 2008
http://www.sepp.org/publications/NIPCC_final.pdf

From the Conclusion (pg 27):

"This report shows conclusively that the human greenhouse gas contribution to current warming is insignificant. Our argument is based on the well-established and generally agreed-to ‘fingerprint’ method. Using data published by the IPCC and further elaborated in the U.S.-sponsored CCSP report, we have shown that observed temperature- trend patterns disagree sharply with those calculated from greenhouse models.

"It is significant that the IPCC has never made such a comparison, or it would have discovered the same result – namely that the current warming is primarily of natural origin rather than anthropogenic. Instead, the IPCC relied for its conclusion (on AGW) on circumstantial ‘evidence’ that does not hold up under scrutiny."

[continued]

Stop exhaling so much (part 2)
Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007, Senate Report Debunks "Consensus," 20 Dec 2007
Cited by ChipsMaster above

Open Letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations by 100 Prominent Scientists, 13 Dec 2007
Re: UN climate conference taking the World in entirely the wrong direction
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/reprint/open_letter_to_un .html

"It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages...

"The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued increasingly alarming conclusions about the climatic influences of human-produced carbon dioxide (CO2), a non-polluting gas that is essential to plant photosynthesis. While we understand the evidence that has led them to view CO2 emissions as harmful, the IPCC's conclusions are quite inadequate as justification for implementing policies that will markedly diminish future prosperity. In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions. On top of which, because attempts to cut emissions will slow development, the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it."

continued

Stop exhaling so much (part 3)
Weather Channel Founder: Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’
John Coleman, 11 Nov 2007
Intro: http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/comments_about_glo bal_warming/
Full comments: http://icecap.us/images/uploads/JC_comments.doc

35 Inconvenient Truths: The Errors in Al Gore's movie
C. Monckton, 18 Oct 2007
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

Hearing on Climate Change and the Media
Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, 06 Dec 2006
http://www.agiweb.org/gap/legis109/climate_hearings.html
Dr. R.M. Carter of the Marine Geology Laboratory at Cook University in Australia stated that... ice core evidence illustrates that a change in temperature precedes a change in CO2 levels by hundreds of years (a point later described as uncertain and synchronous on a geological timescale by Schrag). Therefore, according to Carter, stating that an increase in CO2 causes an increase in temperature "is the same as saying that lung cancer causes smoking."

If you can’t curb your breathing, tell your Representative, Senators, President, and wannabes to curb their spending (plans)! If they don’t listen, show them the curb.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

BREAKING NEWS! UPDATE
Washington, D.C.
- AP

U. S. Department of the Interior spokesman Dhimwit Bumdas, speaking before a group of Washington reporters, has announced a massive new federal program aimed at polar bear re-education.

Mr. Bumdas, citing the recent discovery of polar bears vacationing in Mexico, a phenomena which caused Interior to prematurely place the creatures on its endangered species list, proclaimed a need for federal intervention.

Interior is now calling for the program, with an estimated cost of $500 billion over the next fifteen year, which will corral the vacationing bears and return them to the northern ice floes "where they are supposed to be".

The plan also calls for a "re-education" policy, wherein polar bears will be instructed by Federal bear intructors to believe that "grouper and red snapper do not taste just as good as salmon and seals", and that "the idea that summer in the Yucatan is preferable to frigid Bering Sea ice floes is misguided".

Stay tuned for futher updates on this continuing story.


I remain,

Your Obedient Servant,

George Washington

Face it ,it's a TAX increase
with no real foundation. Global Warming true or not true has not been proven to be a certainty. We shouldn't be taxed for "maybe/could be/mightbe. Almost sure hooey.

National suicide
The way I see it, global warming, as part a normal earth weather cycles, is promoted by individuals making profit on it and those scientists depending on grants and federal money to continue their pet projects. Meanwhile, energy costs are continuing upward on a DAILY basis. Mccain is just another RINO trying to garner more left-leaning votes.

This has serious consequences economically, politically, and strategically. I get the impression the liberal priviledged would like nothing better than to inflict these problems on the majority of the rest of Americans while they continue to pad their bank accounts and convince the weak-minded to continue to re-elect them and continue the process.

What has the Pelosi-led majority accomplished other than bad mouth our country, run down economy and parade pro atheletes infront of arrogant committees to explain their use or non-use of steroids. MAN! are we getting our money's worth or what! How about getting an actual energy policy not based on unproven "scientific" voodoo. Or, trying to rebuild our manufacturing base which started jumping ship under the Clinton administration. These are a couple of issues I'd like to see done in my lifetime.

Tax Evasion
This Lieberman/McCain plan will work.

Once they tax, punish and drive the last bit of industry out of America, we will become the most environmentally friendly land on the planet.

Good luck getting China to follow your feeble little environment plan. Does anyone believe China's military buildup is for the goodness of mankind? NO, but it will go a long way in keeping the UN global warming policies out of their way.

Chicaree,
For future reference, please grow a neocortex first before you waste more of your time, my time, and Townhall's bandwidth with nonsensical drivel.

McCain's Lobbyist Connnections
This excellent article had its link removed from the home page, where it appeared earlier today. It appears that another of McCain's lobbyist staffers/bundlers have foreign connections.

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/05/19/ mccains_national_finance_co-chair_resigns?comments=true#com ments

No way McCain
This man may well drag the GOP even further down than GWB has. Just wearing a "Republican" label isn't going to do it.

Global warming nonsense, lobbyists
No surprise that the liberal Republican is embracing global warming.

The following link is to an article found on the home page earlier today but since removed. It seems another high-ranking McCain staffer has been forced to resign, due to foreign lobbying revelations. I'm not sure what the big deal is, though; McCain is a major lobbyist for Mexico.

It would be so refreshing to have a major candidate whose only loyalty was to the United States.

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/05/19/ mccains_national_finance_co-chair_resigns?comments=true#com ments

I look forward to the Wednesday after
McCain loses. Nothing would make me happier. Conservatives, join me in voting for Bob Barr. I am hoping McCain loses by a narrow margin, the difference being the Bob Barr votes.

McCain is a moron
Like most liberals, McCain thinks what you believe on Global Warming is a moral issue. It shows what kind of person you are. Facts, science, none of that matters.
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