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Saturday, November 10, 2007
Robert Bluey :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Bonbon for Big Labor
by Robert Bluey
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Free trade has fallen on hard times in America. With commentators such as CNN's Lou Dobbs promoting protectionism and liberal politicians pandering to Big Labor, the tide has clearly turned.

The U.S. has enjoyed years of economic growth resulting from liberalized trade. Since the late 1990s, gross domestic product has increased nearly 40 percent, and jobs have grown by 13 percent. Now, however, repeated attacks on free trade -- mostly from liberal politicians, but some from conservative quarters as well -- threaten significant economic damage.

At a time when the world is becoming smaller every day, it seems only logical to tear down walls rather than build new ones. But legislation making its way through Congress would erect new barriers, costing the U.S. government millions and doing American workers no favors.

The Trade and Globalization Assistance Act was supposed to be a modest patch to the Trade Adjustment Assistance job-training program administered by the Department of Labor since 1962. This program helps workers who wind up losing their jobs due to trade pacts get the training they need to find new jobs. But thanks in part to the clout of unions, House Ways and Means Chairman Charlie Rangel (D-N.Y.) has turned the measure into a boon for Big Labor and an assault on free trade. The legislation prompted a strongly worded veto threat from the White House, citing both the high cost and vast scope of the bill as reasons for rejecting the measure.

Doubtless the administration is doubly disappointed with the current bill because it was originally intended to renew the president's Trade Promotion Authority (which expired June 30) in return for the modest “patch.” However the TPA renewal is no longer in the mix. In its stead are provisions that help the administration advance only one trade deal: the Peru Free Trade Agreement. The House approved that pact on Thursday, 285-132. But similar deals with Colombia, Panama and South Korea are languishing without any sign they'll win congressional approval.

How did the administration get stuck with such a bad deal? Growing hostility toward free trade has prompted many Democrats who espoused trade liberalization during the Clinton administration to question whether deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) are good for the United States.

Those attitudes are fueled largely by political pressure from Big Labor. Despite a sound U.S. economy and historically low unemployment rate of 4.7 percent, liberals have swallowed the union-made Kool-Aid and embraced the claim that free trade hurts the middle class. In fact, the contrary is true. Research from the Institute for International Economics shows that the typical (middle class) family of four saves around $10,000 per year, thanks to the lower tariffs that result from free trade. And there’s a bonus. Because their money goes further due to trade-lowered pricing, families are able to buy more, triggering economic growth and creating new jobs.

Yet despite the well-known benefits of free trade, Rangel and about 40 co-sponsors were able to ram their Trade and Globalization Assistance Act through the House with little resistance. Rather than reform the current program, the new initiative makes it worse by expanding it and giving the government an even greater role.

One of the biggest flaws of the Rangel bill is its expansion of the nanny state. The current program offers trade-displaced workers job training and unemployment benefits for two full two years. The Rangel bill would let some workers stay out of the workforce for up to three years, collecting taxpayer-funded unemployment benefits all the while. (Older workers could qualify for cash handouts if they take a lower-paying job.)

It's unclear how displaced workers will benefit from taking a three-year hiatus from real-life work experience, but that's exactly the approach favored by many “progressives.” An alternative, advocated by Rep. Jim McCrery (R-La.), takes an "earn and learn" approach that allows workers to hold a full-time or part-time job and receive training simultaneously, using the same logic as nighttime higher-education classes for full-time workers. McCrery’s bill also attempts to streamline operations at the U.S. Department of Labor so that it is reoriented to provide workers with the services they desire instead of the services favored by Washington bureaucrats.

No one in Congress argues that the government should “abandon” American workers. But given the relatively minimal number of jobs displaced by international trade each year -- loosely estimated at only 3 percent of all jobs lost in any given year -- Rangel's extravagant plan to expand the job-training program to service workers makes little sense. The administration estimates this expansion would instantly increase eligibility for the program by at least 30 percent.

American workers in all segments of the economy face far greater challenges than free trade. To name just two, there’s the need to keep up with new technologies and to identify and respond to changes in consumer behavior. Those challenges are hard.

But politicians vastly prefer easy targets to hard challenges, and the unions have made free trade an easy -- albeit inappropriate -- target.

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About The Author
Robert B. Bluey is director of the Center for Media & Public Policy at The Heritage Foundation and maintains a blog at RobertBluey.com
 
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Oh no! Not another protectionist!
.

No such thing as Free Trade in America
Free trade has fallen on hard times in America. With commentators such as CNN's Lou Dobbs promoting protectionism and liberal politicians pandering to Big Labor, the tide has clearly turned.
---------

How on earth could anyone think America has free trade?
Mind boggling, its as if you do not know how many rules, regulations, licence fees and taxes are imposed on free enterprise.

Its as if you do not know about how its government stepping into the business world making agreements for business corporations, that leave American workers wages spiraling downward.

You do believe that blue collar people are Americans too don't you Robert?

You do understand that every single thing sold on the market today in America is through one corporation or another don't you Robert?

We do not have anything close to Free Trade in the USA.
What we have is Marxism, and you call it "free trade" is all.


Sickening Chinese Imports

Does anyone trust the FDA under Bush?

FOX-Report: Aqua Dots Recalled for Possibly Containing Date Rape Drug

Millions of Chinese-made toys for children have been pulled from shelves in North America and Australia after scientists found they contain a chemical that converts into a powerful date rape drug when ingested. Two children in the U.S. and three in Australia were hospitalized after swallowing the beads.

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/sickening-chinese- imports




Happy Days
Everyone should step back here and look at the big picture. What is this all about? Congress has adopted the stance of the unions and is fighting the trade agreements. They use a provision that was to extend presidential authority to take away authority and extend socialism instead. At the same time they seek to end free trade and bring back protectionism. How is that for a host of Orwellian Newspeak?

Doesn't anyone see the parallels here to the 1930s? I warned of this months ago. We are due now for an economic downturn as part of the normal business cycle. These downturns occur about every 10 to 12 years and since the end of the depression have been like previous downturns, generally mild.

Well the Lamocrats have taken over now, and despite campaign promises to the contrary, they are about to embark on the same stupid policies that caused the Great Depression and extended it for twenty years.

First, in the middle of a downturn:

1. Enact strong anti-trade legislation.
2. Enact a host of government spending on socialism
3. Enact huge tax increases
4. Enact strict and stifling regulations on business

When the downturn accelerates, just keep increasing those things above. That my friends is what is called "regenerative feedback". It will cause any engine to run out of control if used as an engine control method. It works the same way with the economy.

Cone on Commiecrats, let's sing

Happy days are here again,
The skies above are clear again,
So let's sing a song of cheer again,
Happy days are here again.


Free Trade?
If current free trade policies are so great, why has this country had staggering trade deficits for thw past 30 years?

I just love the "free trade" capitalists who are building up China's armed forces so they can increase their profits.

Lou Dobbs is one of the few in the media that keeps Americans informed.

Mr. Bluey
There is a huge unemployment in USA - but people who work for a fraction of previous wages or those out of unemployment payments are not "in statistics".

Dobbs is the only reporter doing his job.

Write about NAU, SSP, open southern border (6 years after 9/11!!)

Vic has it right
See post at 6:36.

And that's precisely what you are proposing!

Robert Bluey is illogical
Robert Bluey is so drunk on free-trade kool-aid that he cannot even write a coherent commentary.

The article's primary theme is that we should not be providing training to Americans who are displaced when jobs move overseas thanks to Congressional Acts. But then he closes:

"American workers in all segments of the economy face far greater challenges than free trade. To name just two, there’s the need to keep up with new technologies..."

What "new technologies" is he talking about? Are steel mill workers supposed to be obtaining PhD in genetic engineering in their spare time "just in case?"

Robert balks that it might take someone 2 to 3 years to gain the skills to enter a new profession. But he doesn't cite any examples. I know of computer programmers displaced by offshoring who are entering nursing. That is a 2 year program. What "new technology skills" does Robert believe the Average American can acquire in a short time?

Furthermore his putting the onus on Americans to "keep up with new technologies" is misplaced, because, within computer programming, "keep up" doesn't work. If a COBOL programmer is laid off, but has been taking JAVA and ASP.NET courses at night, they still will not be hired, since virtually every job ad requires "3+ years EXPERIENCE in JAVA or ASP.NET." This is a catch-22 that ivory tower Robert conveniently ignores.

Robert ignores that Bush's misguided free trade actions have driven the dollar down 40% of its value. The bottom is not in sight. "Free Trade" has meant "move all U.S. manufacturing to China and all services to India." Now China has a big pile of USD, the US is 9 trillion in dept.

And what is Bush solution? Like a drug addict, he thinks just a few more trade deals with Peru and Costa Rica will turn things around.



Free Trade did not create jobs cited
Robert writes:

"The U.S. has enjoyed years of economic growth resulting from liberalized trade. Since the late 1990s, gross domestic product has increased nearly 40 percent, and jobs have grown by 13 percent."

Robert falsely suggests that "liberalized trade" is responsible for this 13% increase in job creation. But this increase was simply caused by population growth. There is no reason to believe that unemployment would be 18% today if not for "liberalized trade."

U.S. population has increased by 13% since the late 1990s:

November 1, 1997 268,738,000
Current: 303,333,320

Why does Robert ignore that factor?



Free Trade, A CFR Love-In
"Research from the Institute for International Economics shows that the typical (middle class) family of four saves around $10,000 per year, thanks to the lower tariffs that result from free trade." "saves" means that the family of four and me use the $10,000 to pay for the public debt and the government slush funds to support the open borders and "free" trade. NOTHING is free. We are essentially bankrupt. If our enemies chose to do so, our currency would be worth the paper it is printed on. One false move, such as some weird support for Formosa and China could easily blow our currency to smithereens. A couple of arab nations could do the same with their oil. So we should feel good? This leveling of the international playing field is made to order by the Bilderbergs, Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission. Bushes, Klintoons, and numerous members and attendees of those groups are spread throughout our governments and business. We little people never had a chance.

Free Trade and Poverty

MSNBC-Newsweek-Many economists argue that free trade is a magic bullet—the quickest way to fuel growth and alleviate poverty. Yet free trade hasn’t much helped the 47 least developed countries in the world, the poorest of the poor. According to United Nations data, their share of world trade has declined sharply since 1950, and now accounts for a meager 1 percent of global trade volume. Collectively, the number of people living in abject poverty in those nations is expected to rise to 471 million by 2015—up from 334 million in 2000. Even East Asia, long the poster child for export-driven growth, owes much of its rise to government-led and -financed industrial strategies, as well as outright protectionism. Japan still impedes imports of foreign rice, for example, while South Korea blocks a variety of agricultural products.

This is not old-fashioned populism. Serious thinkers have concluded that neoliberal economic policies are little help to the world’s poorest nations. Columbia University economist and Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz argues that the WTO’s agenda as currently constituted should be scrapped.


READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/free-trade-and-pov erty




All of you folks who are complaining
about free trade and places like China are complaining about the wrong thing. What we have with places like China and Japan is not real FREE trade. U.S. goods are restricted going into these places to a large extent while some of their goods (mostly agriculture) are restricted from coming into our country.

You also complain about massive trade imbalances and American jobs going overseas. The myth here is that this happens because of low wages in these 3rd world countries. Wages are only a small part of the problem, actually very small. The major problem is the HIGH cost of doing business in the U.S. due to the “billions and billions” (excuse me Carl Sagan) of government regulations. The last time the government did anything to try to curtail this (on paper) was during the Klinton admin and he assigne Al Gore. RITFLMAO, Albore reducing regulation.

If you really are serious about keeping jobs in America and reducing the trade imbalance you would be harping on regulation, not trade.

Bonbon for big labor
TeeHall: Should be the one writing the column, he is obviously better informed than the author on the subject.

The history
is too long of government interferance in our capitalist system with regulations, tax advantages to the chosen ones and supports to various employers like farmers and steel. It has been years since the old "let the market work" rings true. Also, the job picture isn't as rosy as it looks given that much of the job growth is in government and the "cooked" inflation numbers are out there so social security benefits don't need to be raised.

Another Free Trade Kool Aid Drinker
This post is laughable, since it seems to ingore ALL the facts on the ground - most notably, the fact that we have HUGE trade imbalances with the rest of the world, and have for well over a decade. The whole idea was that this "Free Trade" nonsense was going to exponentially increase our EXPORTS.

As for Vic's assertion that cheap labor has had no role in the sucking of almost ALL of our manufacturing base from this nation, pul-eeeze. What are you trying to sell us here?

The policies of the Bush I, Clinton and Bush II administrations have given us a hollowed out economy, the loss of our manufacturing base (to the point of endangering our ability to create much of the equipment necessary for our defense) and has made China an economic superpower.

We've all been sold a bill of goods. TRUE free trade would have meant that we would lower our barriers over time, ONLY when labor costs and work standards were equalized.

The mantra of "too many regulations in America" havng caused our woes becomes a rather pathetic rant once we realize that the choice is between good paying jobs and slave labor, and between a safe working and natural environment or no safety regulations and toxic sludge in our rivers and skies. The Chinese will learn quickly that there's a high price to pay for their fast, reckless growth. We're starting to learn that the Neocons and Libertarians that own the GOP have had the same Robber Baron future in mind for us as the Chinese are experiencing now.

Age counts
A further thought. Can we get someone to post articles on Townhall who is OVER 17 please?

Some real life experience might do wonders for the quality of analysis here. These kids who have just learned politics and economics at the knee of neocons and libertarians simply don't have the depth to make cogent arguments.

politicalguy
You need to go back to your neo-Marxist school and leave real political discussion to the adults. You don’t have to go to the politicians to get the story on why jobs are going overseas. You can go to the actual companies moving overseas.

In addition, if you knew how to read you would have seen that I did not say ALL of the reason. I said wages were only a small part of the reason.

And finally, nobody is against needed regulation. What people are against is useless regulation that goes far beyond what was originally intended and regulation that has never achieved anything but added cost.

Vic


We have the Marxist Plan for the economy in the United States.
We DO NOT have Free Enterprise.

Not sure if you see this or not.

Talent Scout
Yes, we have the beginnings of Marxism and already a lot of socialism. But ultimately, that is not the major reason for trade imbalances.

Free Trade and Jobs
I am all for free trade on a level playing field. However, the playing field is not level; therefore since big business will not devote the necessary resources to make sure the field is level the Congress must.

I am very disturbed when politicians and columnist say, “Just look at all the jobs being created”. I say look at the kinds and types of jobs that are being created; and those filling those jobs. I am a former IT worker (displaced by H1B) doing one of those newly created jobs, earning about one-quarter of what I was as an IT worker. Those benefiting the most from free trade on a non-level playing field are not the workers, but big business.

Cut it, slice and dice it
Vic writes: AM
Talent Scout
Yes, we have the beginnings of Marxism and already a lot of socialism. But ultimately, that is not the major reason for trade imbalances.
----------

We are ruled by Marxism, totally.
So many different approaches to this doctrine and placed upon Americans through the years since 1933 that we are now boiled frogs.

Marxism Rules America
No longer are we a free people under a United Constitution.
The US Constitution has not been observed for many many many years and a multiple places.


Businessmen run America
And their partners, the politicians.
No different than the communists of Red China, and the Old USSR.

Free Enterprise is NO LONGER alive, it is DEAD.
It has been killed, murdered and slain by the new owners of America.
Businessmen and Politicians.

The Eagles Feathers have been PLUCKED, and He no longer flies over this Nation of a Free and Independent People.

We are one of the very worst ruled people in the entire world, simply because we have a MONIED ARISTOCRACY ruling us and we are so decived in thinking we are "free". ha ha


Gov't creates waste, not jobs
Wealth comes from private enterprise.

Gov't intervention creates stagnation and misappropriated resources.

All the money being poured into ethanol distorts the energy market, because it takes a gallon of oil to make a gallon of ethanol and practically a river to support an ethanol refining plant. Iowa will not in the end have enough water for King Ethanol. People would not get involved in this losing proposition save that gov't is subsidizing it.

Whatever new source of energy we discover beyond will come some private source, not the gov't. It is too diverse, too tied to special interests, too slow to respond, and too fearful to really design new inventions or pursue radical ideas.

Gov't is smothering. As I am now tied into Soc. Sec. and Medicare, I cannot tell you how oppressive these "benefits" are when they can tell what kind of earned income you can make for yourself and what kind of medical attention you can elect.

Bluey your full of Huey!!!
We Americans need to take care of American workers for a change.

Check out
The lable on the new Milwalkee(sp) tools that you buy. China just bought them out and built a one million square ft plant in China. Right now they only have the corded division there, but with a plant that size it's only a matter of time before they move the rest. They will make the product for 50% less there under the same name and then send it here and a lot of unsuspecting consumers will buy them at the same price they were as they think they are buying AMERICAN made. What a pile of s-it! Tell all of your friends to check the label! I heard that the makers of PEEPS marshmallow candies are outsourcing to China on some of their products now too. We need to start listing all of the companies that do these kind of things and boycot them for awhile. See how fast they change their minds.
SEAL THE BORDER BEFORE WE SEAL OUR FATE!!
HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"


GOLDFINGER
I love James Bond and "Goldfinger".Remember when Bond asked Goldfinger;"How are You, Going to Get the Gold, out of Fort Knox"?Goldfinger's plan was to contaminated the "GOLD".Not REMOVE IT!Globalization increased the value of assets, held by the "RICH".HOW?By putting money in more hands, you increase the bidding and the bidders.For people who are wealthy,this is the easiest way to insure your wealth.The Politicians are the people who conduct the AUCTION.The only "JOB" they have is to make sure, that the AUCTION is uninterrupted.No coups,unless we are the sponsor.Revolution,a 20th century term,never to be useful again,ETCCCCC.Each of you;Sgt.Relic,vic,talentscott and "OTHERS" have correctly identified the "LANDMINES" which fair-trade and Globalization conceal.NOW WHAT!!!

Sam
With all due respect I will not trust words anymore. Bush made promises he didn't keep. Hunter, at least, has demonstrated that he will close the border. He has forced the government to build 56 miles of the fense and is still pushing to build more. If you saw him on Glen Beck last night, he is not for any type of amnesty and will fight the good fight. I will support him any way I can and definatly vote for him in the primary.
SEAL THE BORDER BEFORE WE SEAL OUR FATE!!!
HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

Hooey from Bluey
We don't have FAIR TRADE! What planet are you from?

Dangers of Free Market
Bear with me here, as I have never taken an economics course in my life. But also never in my life (and I am old) have I been fearful of buying products on the American retail market. Now, I am. So I am thinking that this famous globalized free market is not working in my interest.

I used to buy frozen seafood orginating in Asian countries: China, Thailand, Indonesia. Now, I read the label. If it mentions any Asian place, I put the package back in the freezer.

I used to buy candy and cookies made in Mexico and other exotic lands. Now I know that these are made with chemicals coming from unregulated China. So I stick to candy and cookies made in the USA or some nice clean country like Belgium, breathing a prayer that these, also, weren't made with Chinese ingredients, but who can be sure any more?

I used to buy toys in American stores without worrying. Now? First lead and now the date-rape drug. I used to buy toiletries without worrying. Now? Dead kids from Chinese toothpaste.

Our products used to be safe because regulatory law, enforced by regulatory government agencies, kept them safe. Now that the GOP has successfully spread the word for the past 30 years that government is bad and regulation is worse, we are back in 1900.

Good economics? Not if I stop buying. Am I the only consumer worried?

Hi Sam
Re "If you know anybody who has ever been polled": I keep getting phone calls at the dinner hour, "You have been selected to participate in our survey". Either the call is made by a robot speaking on a computer and I immediately hang up, or by a cheery human who does not know me but addresses me by my first name and I immediately hang up. Am I missing some great opportunities here?

Maybe the "polls" are taken on people lonesome or desperate for somebody to talk to or just not interested in eating dinner.

for Sgt. Relic
Sgt. Relic claims: "Evironmental interference by the green looby makes building plants overseas far more enticing, not to mention the impediment these groups pose to anything resembling a sound energy policy."

WRONG.
Japan has a trade surplus with the U.S. DESPITE strict environmental controls there. The Japanese are the world leader in solar power--nearly half the solar panels in the world are in Japan--and one of the leaders in nuclear power for electrification. Their cars get a average fuel economy than ours. They have a terrific passenger rail system.

That's because Japan doesn't have any oil to exploit, so they HAD to diversify their energy supplies. There are still people in America, some of them right on townhall.com, that cling to the fantasy that the U.S. can solve its energy problems by producing its own oil. Little do they know that we don't keep that oil--when it's drilled, multinational oil companies will ship it to whatever country is willing to pay for it. And we'll be no better off.

You try mentioning solar power on townhall.com and you hear "Oil, oil, oil--drill more oil!"

for politicalguy
politicalguy writes: "This post is laughable, since it seems to ingore ALL the facts on the ground - most notably, the fact that we have HUGE trade imbalances with the rest of the world, and have for well over a decade. The whole idea was that this "Free Trade" nonsense was going to exponentially increase our EXPORTS. "

It did.
Boeing continues to be the world leader in passenger airliners.
Microsoft continues to have a virtual monopoly on computer software.

The U.S. does not have a problem with aerospace, high-tech, pharma--those industries are doing well and ship all over the world.

The U.S. is losing its manufacturing base because that's old industry. If a developing nation can build cars or machine tools cheaper than the U.S., let them. So far at least, they can't build better airliners or better computers, and the U.S. continues to be the leader in those fields. That's called comparative advantage.

When technology and industry undergoes shifts, the workers in the old industries suffer. What do you suppose happened to blacksmiths, telegraphers, telephone operators? They all lost their jobs. What society can do is offer retraining. But we shouldn't be protecting the horseshoe and telegraph industries from inevitable advancement.

Vic
says it all for me. I do so agree with you.

Two sides to every coin
SteveL writes: 6:57 PM

The U.S. is losing its manufacturing base because that's old industry. If a developing nation can build cars or machine tools cheaper than the U.S., let them. So far at least, they can't build better airliners or better computers, and the U.S. continues to be the leader in those fields. That's called comparative advantage.
-------
And you cannot sell partial truths to anyone
And the one truth you or many will not look at is what tells the truth of who wins and who loses.
Corporations win, Citizens lose

quote:

All 50 states and the District of Columbia have experienced a net loss of jobs under NAFTA, with the U.S. losing 766,030 actual and potential jobs between 1993 and 2000 (see NAFTA's Hidden Costs from the report NAFTA at Seven). With exports from every state being offset by faster growth in imports, net job loss figures range from a low of 395 jobs lost in Alaska to a high of 82,354 in California. Other hard-hit states include Michigan, New York, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Indiana, Florida, Tennessee, and Georgia, each with more than 20,000 jobs lost. These states all have high concentrations of the kinds of industries (motor vehicles, textiles and apparel, computers and electrical appliances) that subsequently have expanded rapidly in the maquilidora zones in Mexico since the implementation of NAFTA.

The U.S. manufacturing sector lost 544,750 jobs (72% of all jobs lost) between 1993 and 2000, due to growth in the net export deficit between the U.S. and Canada
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/NAFTA@7/impactstates.ht ml

Manufacturing is exactly what is making MAKING RED CHINA the global boss of the WORLD MARKETS.

Get it?
Manufacturing that "old industry" is leading the world from CHINA.

Past technology? Hardy ha ha


Bzzzt
"talent" scout claims a relatively small number of jobs have been lost as a result of NAFTA.

The fact is that 20 MILLION jobs have been CREATED. See:
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID =900003&contentID=251512

And before anyone whines that this URL points to the Progressive Policy Institute, please understand that "talent"s data comes from a union shill.

Coming from a corporate shill
Horse manure
Bull pucky
Hagowash



MellorSJ2 writes: Saturday, November, 10, 2007 8:42 PM
Bzzzt
"talent" scout claims a relatively small number of jobs have been lost as a result of NAFTA.

The fact is that 20 MILLION jobs have been CREATED. See:
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID =900003&contentID=251512

--------

Quit whining about the facts Mellor, grow up some will ya.
Find any site you want about what NAFTA has done to American workers and exports.
That site I gave is 7 years out of date anyway.
Typical airheads will say "the site" "the site" blah blah blah.

Manufacturing is EXACTLY why China is expanding, and anyone who wants to look the other way as you do, have at it, its still the FACTS.

Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies

Bluey Shmuey - whose Kool-Aid?
About the "growing hostility to free trade":

It ain't "free trade", it's CORPORATISM - the new religion into which the administration has cast all its chips - the view that corporations can do no wrong, as long as they're turning a profit and cooking the numbers right. Snagging market share is perfectly OK even if it is done by using the government to strangle your competition. Raking in advertising dough is perfectly OK even if is gained by selling airtime to promote foreign dictatorships. Re-development is worshipped as the answer to "sprawl", sold to municipalities as a goody-bag of increases to the tax base, and achieved by forcing homeowners off their land with eminent domain. And firms of nearly every stripe have decimated the "free-trade" landscape, undermining the rule of law which sustains it, by trading blackmail with the government - cheap exploitable labor, tariffs, subsidies, price controls, enviro-bribes, multi-language accommodations, tax favoritism and lax border security.

"Capitalism" is exactly what is NOT being practiced. It is uber-mixed-economy toadying for favors from whomever appears to have influence to peddle. Laissez faire is NOT the same as anything-goes, and we need the old-style capitalists who actually knew how to operate on principle.

talent
"Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies"


I'd agree if you were talking about the 18th & 19th centuries.
The 20th century has belonged to service economies.

What a moron!
'talent' scout writes: "Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies"

Sure. As in:
- Singapore
- Hong Kong
- Japan
- UK
- and, yes, the US, where 75% of people work in services

You're the kind of fool who complained when the number of people working on the farm dropped from 90% to 50% between 1800 and 1900.

Still, when you believe in fairy tales....

Mellor writes:
The fact is that 20 MILLION jobs have been CREATED. See:
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID =900003&contentID=251512
----------

What nonsense
The US Population has exploded.

"The US population has hit 300 million people, just 39 years after it reached 200 million, according to US Census Bureau estimates."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6057004.stm

More jobs are created in the service industry than any other.
And that due to a very fast population growth in the last 20 years.

NAFTA is not doing anything for American workers, unless he is with the corporation management.
Yeah, they are doing well

scout
What's next the great depression was caused by industrial OVERPRODUCTION?

YOU ARE AN IDIOT MELLOR
MellorSJ2 writes: Saturday, November, 10, 2007 9:18 PM
What a moron!
'talent' scout writes: "Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies"

Sure. As in:
- Singapore
- Hong Kong
- Japan
- UK
------

YOU INDEED ARE A COMPLETE moron YOURSELF, MORON!

What do you think all those financial districts BASE THEIR WEALTH IN IDIOT!

Goods and services you MORON!

Vic
I can't agree more. The stock market ups and downs are likely reflections of the instability of the dollar, interest rates, and the over extensions lenders made into the real estate market. These are corrections that will slow the economy down but not maul it.

But let the demos, madam klinton and (S)Rangle get their greedy hands on it, and they'll tax and regulate the nation right into a bad recession. And think about all the whining and demagoguing, gov't must 'do something' propaganda regarding the hordes of low skilled illegals, displaced workers et al once they start hitting the welfare apparatus.

This is exactly the scenario they hope to create because nothing would serve their socialist agenda better.

More moronic statements from 'talent'
"NAFTA is not doing anything for American workers"

NAFTA is doing a LOT for American workers, because it is keeping prices down.

"unless he is with the corporation management.
Yeah, they are doing well"

Maybe when you find find that talent you're looking for, you'll get a good job.

Vic
I can't agree more. The stock market ups and downs are likely reflections of the instability of the dollar, interest rates, and the over extensions lenders made into the real estate market. These are corrections that will slow the economy down but not maul it.

But let the demos, madam klinton and Rangle get their greedy hands on it, and they'll tax and regulate the nation right into a bad recession. And think about all the hand wringing, whining and demagoguing propaganda over the hordes of illegals et al once they start hitting the welfare apparatus.

This is exactly the scenario they hope to create when the gov't is called upon to 'do something' because nothing would serve their socialist agenda better.

Great Depression
Satan2Liberals writes: 9:22 PM
scout
What's next the great depression was caused by industrial OVERPRODUCTION?
---------

Was caused by the Federal Reserve Banking Corporation.


He's getting angrier
...and, hard though it is to believe, stupider.

Yes, once again our deluded friend 'talent' scout raises the intellectual level of the discussion with: "What do you think all those financial districts BASE THEIR WEALTH IN IDIOT!

Goods and services you MORON!"

Services certainly. But how many goods do you think they make in Singapore (692.7 sq km)? Eh, 'talent'?

Try spending a little time in the UK. They worship the financial and media sectors. Manufacturing is done elsewhere to British designs. That's where the money is.

Not that you'd ever find it. That's why you're so bitter.

Any of you brainiacs
Understand what is causing the Prosperity and Growth of Red China?

MANUFACTURING YOU MORONS.


I just decided to respond to
Your own name calling Mellor, you moron.

Felt good to just get it out of the system
Moron
So do not start something you cannot handle

You are too stupid to argue with
Mellor

This says all I got to say to you


MellorSJ2 writes:
What a moron!
'talent' scout writes: "Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies"

Sure. As in:
- Singapore
- Hong Kong
- Japan
- UK
------

YOU INDEED ARE A COMPLETE moron YOURSELF, MORON!

What do you think all those financial districts BASE THEIR WEALTH IN IDIOT!

Goods and services you MORON!

And add this:
Manufacturing is the base of it all, without manufacturing you have no goods or service you idiot

Even when he's right, he's wrong
'talent scout' shouts: "Any of you brainiacs
Understand what is causing the Prosperity and Growth of Red China?

MANUFACTURING YOU MORONS."

Of course. It's the natural flow of things.

We used to make TVs in America. Then they were made in lower-cost Japan. As Japan became richer, they outsourced their manufacturing to S. Korea. (Note, BTW, that the Japanese divide the work so that critical steps in the manufacture are carried out only in Japan, thus keeping the IP in house.) Now, manufacturing is moving to China. BFD.

But who controls it? The developed countries. They are the ones who develop the IP, and who profit from it. Those toys we've been hearing about are not made to Chinese design, but to Mattel's.

The clothing industry treat China as a workshop. Their profits come from rapid response to fashion (Zara), fast supply chains (Esprit), or customer-relationship management (Uniqlo).

Please try to get a grip on the facts.


Sam
Don't forget http://www.immi.gov.au/immigration.htm

I recall you saying you left college recently. Good. Australia's point system rewards youth (more years to pay taxes!)

That, and an election cycle is only 6 weeks, not 18 months!

PS When I last looked, programming, per se, was not a desired skill, though management was. Check it out.

Grip this fact Mellor
Red China is prospering and growing from one single reason.
Manufacturing
They are not smarter, they have manufacuring.

Same thing that Made America Strongest in WWII and the same reason we bombed the Ruhr Vally in Germany.

Manufacturing is critical to a nations economy and its an absurd and unreasoned person who ignores the very basic truth

Sam asks
"Anyone know how to accept a currency other than US Dollars for a business account? I don't want to have my business that I am going to create on the side to accept US Dollars as payment.... "

One option, of course, is to set up the account in the foreign country in which you do business. This can be difficult. Because of money-laundering "know-your-customer" laws, banks now require a property/council/city tax bill, voting/visa record, or a utility bill addressed to your home. It took me ages to open an account in the UK, though I was able to procure a credit card in Australia even though I'm not a resident.

Another option is Switzerland, but they charge high fees and very low interest. It's so bad, I've just closed mine.

Finally, you should be able to open a multi-currency account. I know that it's possible in the UK, though one bank I checked insisted on minimum balances in each currency. WTF? I also heard that in the US SmithBarney/Citibank now has multi-currency accounts. I have not tested this.

We all know what you're gripping, talent
"Manufacturing is critical to a nations economy and its an absurd and unreasoned person who ignores the very basic truth"

Nope. _Control_ of manufacturing is critical to a nation's economy.

In times of war, you might have a point. But that applies to a limited number of industries.

holy crap
Sam writes: Saturday, November, 10, 2007 9:46 PM
Accept a foreign currency business acct?
Anyone know how to accept a currency other than US Dollars for a business account? I don't want to have my business that I am going to create on the side to accept US Dollars as payment....


What do you think is going to happen, the entity paying you in non-US$ is going to overpay you just because you asked for another currency?

If you want to stick with this idea , just pay to have it converted into the currency of your choice by your bank once deposited.


"We" We who?

MellorSJ2 writes: 10:10 PM
We all know what you're gripping, talent


ts
Name it then moron
You and all the "we's" you know, lol.
-------

Mellor writes:

Nope. _Control_ of manufacturing is critical to a nation's economy.

In times of war, you might have a point. But that applies to a limited number of industries.
------
ts:
Different subject moron.
Typical,exposed how dumb you are and now after getting your eyes opened to manufacturing is the base of all nations economy, you now say:
Nope. _Control_

Yeah "we" all know as in WE over here with brains, lol.

This is what I said to begin with Mellor.
Manufacturing the base for EVERY NATIONS ECONOMY. period.
That covers all points

satan2liberals asks
"What do you think is going to happen, the entity paying you in non-US$ is going to overpay you just because you asked for another currency?"

I have no idea what Sam is thinking, but it does make a difference in what currency you price your products.

For years, we sold products for a percentage of the USD price, the remainder going to the distributor. When the $ rose, we lost business, and suffered lots of pain from customers and distributors alike because their prices were going up.

Had we priced in local currency, we'd have saved that hassle, but not made as much money...until the dollar drops, that is.

Not saying one is better than the other. Merely that you have to think about it.

Separately, if you're paid in local currency and want to keep it in local currency, you'd do well to avoid the bank's ripoff fees for currency conversion.

The only point, 'talent' is on your head
"Manufacturing the base for EVERY NATIONS ECONOMY. period.
That covers all points."

Proof by Repeated Assertion, eh? Much like your equally annoying god-bot posts. Let me have a go:

I repeat: 75% of US jobs are in services.

I repeat: Places like Singapore get along fine without a manufacturing base.

I repeat: The UK economy relies heavily on finance and media.

Here's a new point for you. Let's pretend we shut down China. (I dunno: gunboats?) How would we make our toys (say)?

We could make them in the US with expensive labor. Costs and prices would rise.

Or we could offshore it to, say, India, and put up with their poor infrastructure slowing the supply chain.

Still Mattel designs the toys. We control the manufacturing. Where it gets done is neither here nor there. (And it's a small added value too.)

sj
mellor:I have no idea what Sam is thinking,
s2l: I'm not sure sam does either.



mellor:Separately, if you're paid in local currency and want to keep it in local currency, you'd do well to avoid the bank's ripoff fees for currency conversion.

s2l: Obviously sam should do business where the local currency is the one he desires.

I don't see sam doing himself a favor in demanding non-US denominated funds as payment.

s2l
(now that we're on familiar terms...)

"I don't see sam doing himself a favor in demanding non-US denominated funds as payment."

Agreed. Most companies will pay only in their local currency, and they no idea how to do anything different.

Some US companies have offshore entities and they are willing to pay from there, but (believe me because I have tried) it complicates the contract process immeasurably.

Take the money and run, I say. You can, as you said, change it later. But to hold it, he'll need an account in his selected currency, either offshore or onshore.

Mellor (the moron)
Has now gone to talking points and spittle is dripping down his chin as his eyes bug our of his head,
And shows why I have avoided talking to this moron as I seen what that attempt would bring.

This blah blah blah from the moron.

Believe whatever you want to moron

Way to go, 'talent'!
Your best comeback is to make not a single point whatsoever?

I'll agree with you on this, though: "Believe whatever you want to moron."

We can all see how far _you've_ gotten in life.

Free World Trade
Yes, Mr. Bluey, you forgot to mention that this free trade has made America lucky in as much as Communist China, is now America's most favored and trusted Banker, right? Yes, this free trade has also blessed America, with only God knows how many millions of illegal immgrants and provided another language etc., ect., etc., to America to facilitate the flow of information, because, it seems like one language cannot create new words to cover all the progress America is making. Yes, this free trade has also made it possible so that America can now consume two thirds of all illegal drugs consumed by the whole wide world, while only 4% of the world population; what a blessing for the millions of American dope heads. Yes, this free trade provided enough riches for America to having spend already between 600 and 800 billions in fighting illegal drugs all over the world, so that now cocaine in the American streets now sells for only one third it sold a decade or so ago. Yes, this free trade also allows America to sell evermore more ist evermore sophisticated arms to so called friends, and of course, they will never end up in the hands of the terrorists, because they would know how to use them anyway. Well I guess never to forget this free trade also made it possible so that now the Towers that once stood tall and strong can now be replaced with something better, without America having to spend a dime to take them down.
Oh yes, our a jails are also a blessing to the ones that work there, for job security, as some of these illegals are no good, but like in all things there always a silver lining! As a Stauch Conservative Christian Republican, lets start with true free trade and not the complete and absolute lawlessnees/anarchy that in reality has a grip now on America, while America's guns roar all over the in reality for what, may I ask? That is also part of this modern free trade?

sj
Take the money and run, I say. You can, as you said, change it later. But to hold it, he'll need an account in his selected currency, either offshore or onshore.


I don't know which currency holds his fascination but that would be the pefect situation for buying a currency ETF.

We need FREE BUT FAIR TRADE
It seems to me some of you are pretty much trapped in horizontal, back and forth thinking and your bickering is not accomplishing anything, much less convincing to anyone. What we need is a more Vertical approach to politics in general, as well as a Vertical approach to finding solutions to problems that will lift America and Americans up. There is one viable candidate who practices Vertical leadership and has real ideas and solutions for implementing FREE BUT FAIR TRADE. It's refreshing to see and hear real common sense and leadership in a presidential campaign.

Check out what he has to say to Glenn Beck about this and a host of other important issues here:

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Blogs.View &Blog_id=597


UNHOLY ALLIANCE

.....Between the Labor Unions and Government (Democrats) makes "Free" trade "Regulated" trade which is anything but "Free" or "Fair" ...

.....With union dues ...Big Labor contributes to Democrat politicians and then lobbys them to write laws that protect union jobs ...it is a symbionic relationship and is nothing more than old fashion protectionism ...the same type of shortsighted thinking that led to the "Smoot - Hartley Act" and the great depression ...

.....check out the following websites to get a picture of what is wrong with our Country ...in a few words it is "Government over regulation of Business and the Economy" ...

... http://www.unionfacts.com ...
... http://www.capitalism.net ...

.....COLOSSUS

LILLY

.....Re: Sat 5:51 post ...

.....You wrote that you never took an economics course in your life ...believe me it shows ...try reading Thomas Sowell's Economics 101 to get started on your education ...if you get through that book I have several more that I can suggest ...

.....What I get out of your post is that you think that more Government regulation is the answer? ...

.....Written like a good little Communist ...Old Hippies never die ...they just write nonsense on conservative blogs .....COLOSSUS

How refreshing
And what a blessing for our nation that there are some starting to stand up for working American's citizen's rights. Free trade is ONLY free for the rich, as we have learned in our suffering. And it certainly takes it's toll on the people, when the products of free trade is poison.

You really need to get
This understood
---------

:
talent
"Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies"

Satan2Liberals writes:
I'd agree if you were talking about the 18th & 19th centuries.
The 20th century has belonged to service economies.
----------

Reality check for you and the others who preach such as this.

You have no service industry without the basics of manufactured goods. NONE

Not even a maid can service the cleaning of any hotel without the furnishing of the goods that ALL came from manufacturing.

Nor a Mechanic a car
OR
A Pilot without an airplane
A carpenter without wood
Do you have any idea what is the reason Red China is growing wealthy and prosperous?

Do you know why they have over 1 trillion dollars of our money and can destroy the US Dollar if they go ahead with their plans to dump the dollars for the euro or any other nations money?

Let me tell you this, the "leaders" of the US are scared to death that is going to happen and soon.
On the other hand, we have "leaders" who are globalists who have worked very hard and PLANNED this destruction of the US Dollar.
Believe it

We cannot comprehend how much money a trillion dollars is, Hal Lindsey gives this to bring it down in understandable terms.

quote:
So it would take 12 days to pay back a million dollars at a dollar a second. But if you started right now, you'd pay back a BILLION dollars, at a dollar a second, in the year 2039.

A trillion seconds is roughly 32 thousand years. At a dollar a second, you'd pay back a TRILLION dollars in the year 34007.

The U.S. debt stands at $9 trillion. If my calculator is working, then at a dollar a second, the U.S. could be debt- free in the year 290007

Peru Outsourcing Agreement
Why don't we just lose the D.C. doublespeak and call these agreements what they really are: outsourcing agreeements. The winnners are the multinational corporations, who ceased being American a long time ago. Remember Cisco CEO John Chambers' comment that Cisco is now a Chinese company?

We need to look at the actions/votes of "our" representatives and dump those, regardless of which branding organization they belong to, who have not voted in the interests of the U.S. citizens.

This writer just doesn't get it. Or he doesn't care.

Corporations have destroyed
Free Enterprise
The merchants have worked the system over a long period of time to gain the monopoly they now possess over trade and commercial business.

It took men with lots of money to keep a steady pressure on our lawmakers to allow them to gain the power over the business world as they now possess.

Not only in America, but the world.

We are under the rule of the partnership of government and business.

They make all the rules and its all self interest, the self interest of the merchants.
And truly their love of money is the driving force for all lobbying and deal making with the politicians.

Everything is for their benefit to increase profits.
The National Culture, Language or Borders mean nothing when its a choice of making money and the choice of loyalty to the Founding Documents and Limited Government this Nation is Founded in.

Open your ears and LISTEN:

"An equilibrium between the occupations of agriculture, manufactures and commerce shall simplify our foreign concerns to the exchange only of that surplus which we cannot consume for those articles of reasonable comfort or convenience which we cannot produce." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Pennsylvania Citizens, 1809. ME 16:356

Baseball
T.Sowell has a book Basic Economics that should be required reading for everyone. It is amazing that how much oil can be recovered at $100.00/bl.
Gold is now recovered from mill heaps at 800.00/oz. We have to be carefull and not think of things as a zero sum game. This thinking causes people to jump on the idiot bandwagon. The biggest impediment is lack of logic once Dr. Sowells ideas are used. Oil spills and oil related problems are not caused by drilling, but by transportation, yet we don't drill. there are many examples but read the book.

There are Founding Principles

The very basic MORAL TRUTH is life has two choices.


America was Founded in the Highest of Principles and fought for, placing Liberty above every other concern or power on earth and material goods.

This is no longer the case in America, as the Love of Money has replaced the Love of God who Gives Liberty.

We are prisoners of nature and common identity in our needs and desires.

All created equal in this world, born rich or poor.
Rich men do not worry about having daily needs met, food, clothing, work or shelter.

Their thoughts are not common to these needs, as the average man's and who cannot concern himself with much else, and he is thankful for any leisure time to enjoy an hour with no pressure he deals with day to day.

The rich man may speak his concern for what concerns the average person, but his heart is fully intent to increase his own wealth.
Whatever that costs the average man, they sluff it off as "best" for all.

They have no more concern for the average persons needs than they care for smelling dead flesh.

These are the very people who are now controlling America, the super rich men who look down their nose at you, the average man.
And you listen to his justifications for his robbing you and bow down to him as just being superior, and are now a serf, a consumer, a tool for nothing but his own goals and desires for riches.



"The system of banking have... ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our Constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:18

"The banks... have the regulation of the safety-valves of our fortunes, and... condense and explode them at their will." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819. ME 15:224


Jefferson,Jackson and Lincoln was right.


NoTalent copies his jokes to this thread
'talent' scout writes (as he has on the free trade thread): "Manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies."

And then quotes Satan2Liberals: "I'd agree if you were talking about the 18th & 19th centuries.
The 20th century has belonged to service economies."

'talent' gets back on his high horse with: "Reality check for you and the others who preach such as this.

You have no service industry without the basics of manufactured goods. NONE"

By this logic, agriculture is the BOSS of all economies. You'd have no manufacturing industry without food.


Mellor (the moron)
writes:
By this logic, agriculture is the BOSS of all economies. You'd have no manufacturing industry without food.
----------

That is not logic you moron, thats a fact of life

Mellor
What about the 50 year old worker that is too old to train for other work? There are a lot of american manufacturing workers that know nothing else. their jobs are moving out of this country and not being replaced. Please tell me how this can be good for America? Too young to retire, too old to retrain. most employers want younger cheaper employees. Isn't that going to be a drain on our economy? The loss of any kind of jobs isn't good and never will be.

SEAL THE BORDER BEFORE WE SEAL OUR FATE!!!

HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

who is protecting workers? Not the Right
Free trade is clearly the source of economic problems we face: the trade imbalance, jobs moving overseas, shrinking value of the dollar, and environmental degradation. In the historical transition from an agricultural to a predominantly industrial society, the robber barons and captains of industry could have cared less about the sufferings of workers. In accordance with their social darwining philosophy, they had nothing but comtempt for workers at home and the so called "inferior races" abroad. These right-wingers and neocons of today take a similiar attitude towards American workers. Even if you could show the advantages of letting China make cars more cheaply, it still does not address the issue of labor protection. No free trade until there are equal standards of labor and environment protection at home and abroad.CZ.

What about?
Eastlake Joe asks: "What about the 50 year old worker that is too old to train for other work?"

What is it about being fifty that makes one 'too old' to train for other work?

"There are a lot of american manufacturing workers that know nothing else. their jobs are moving out of this country and not being replaced. Please tell me how this can be good for America?"

It's good for America because we get cheaper goods.

"Too young to retire, too old to retrain. most employers want younger cheaper employees."

Too young to retire? I'm only a little over fifty, and I'm (semi-)retired.

"Isn't that going to be a drain on our economy?"

Aha! Here you have a point. But less of drain than the total savings that come from cheaper goods.

"The loss of any kind of jobs isn't good and never will be."

Rubbish. It's called creative destruction.

Beyond parody
'talent' scout has been ranting for some time that manufacturing is the BOSS of all economies. Yet when I write: "By this logic, agriculture is the BOSS of all economies. You'd have no manufacturing industry without food," 'talent' scout replies "That is not logic you moron, thats a fact of life"

So which is it, 'talent'? Is it manufacturing or agriculture that's the BOSS of all economies?

(And why do the insecure write in caps?)

Only a moron would have to ask
MellorSJ2 writes: 1:56 AM


So which is it, 'talent'? Is it manufacturing or agriculture that's the BOSS of all economies?


------------

Some things are a given you clown and you know it.
We are talking of the economy, not the necessities of life .



We also need air and water, (if you want to keep it up with your moronic posts.)
We can continue playing this game, until I get too bored with your idiotic posts that is.

WHAT A MORON


Production of Goods
Is the bottom line and farming does that very thing, provide goods for the market place, as in Farmers Market.

It is production for the sale of goods, just exactly like all other products that are created for the Markets.

Farming is nothing but the manufacturing of food.

Without manufacturing a nation is poor, period.

America is being sold out and has been for a long time now.
We have globalists making all the rules and regulations for international trade to THEIR BENEFIT.
Not the Nations or the culture or any other value, just for the profit of the super rich men who own this country now.
They work the system from behind closed doors.
---------
W. Wilson:

"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our
system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our
activities are in the hands of a few men.

We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely
controlled and dominated Governments in the world - no longer a
Government of free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and
vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of
small groups of dominant men".

(Just before he died, Wilson is reported to have stated to friends that
he had been "deceived" and that "I have betrayed my Country". He
referred to the Federal Reserve Act passed during his Presidency.)

Been going on a long time.

Bluey is sooooo wrong
Robert Bluey is a marvelous example of how many people confuse Republicans for conservatives. Apparently, he's never really worked outside an office his entire life. I (as so many other American Citizens), have grown tired of training and retraining for "new careers" only to find those "new" jobs "downsized, outsourced, or off-shored". Indeed, its the insanity of the past few administrations in toeing the "chamber of Commerce nonsense" that has made our economy and our security precarious. According to Bluey and his ilk, apparently, only management and shareholders should benefit from a burgeoning economy, and the workers be damned! The fact that not every American Citizen can occupy a corner office, or pontificate as a media pundit seems to have escaped Mr. Bluey's attention! We need to get a grip on reality and recognize that "our people" need to work, "our people" need to live and prosper if our democracy is to survive. Premising an economy on "consumer spending" is both dangerous and unsustainable. Even more dangerous and unsustainable is the concept by many "republicans" that conservatives, true conservatives, even remotely share these views. Certainly the results of the most recent elections (lost the house and senate in one swell foop) should have served to enlighten morons such as Bluey. However; the fact that America's Citizens are united in our opposition to comprehensive immigration reform and increases in immigration numbers overall, might also tend to reinforce this perspective. Companies that refuse to "compete for American workers" should be denied access to American markets for their products. Any nation that cannot produce the goods its people consume, or that cannot feeds its people from the bounty within its borders will always be at the mercy of foreign interests.

Ron Paul & Free Trade
Correct me if I'm wrong; but doesn't Ron Paul advocate the "libertarian" perspective on free trade? To be honest, I've contributed to his campaign, but so too have I contributed to Hunter, Tancredo, and Thompson, and none have come out specifically for an "America first" sort of trade platform. Ron Paul's "free trade" agenda would further reduce limits on imports, while depending on "competition" solely to balance the inequalities. Certainly this sort of absolute free trade policies would not serve "American workers" interests any more than the Bush practices have. Come to think of it, I've never actually hear Dr. Paul categorically state that he would deport illegal aliens, or establish policies that would make hiring American workers preferable. I'm not saying he hasn't, or that he won't, I'm just saying that I've never actually heard or read anything declarative from Dr. Paul on the subject. Absolute Free trade, in a world where some workers subsist on pennies a day, cannot be viewed as either free or fair with regard to American workers and our quality of life.

What?
Based on the running arguments regarding whether or not "manufacturing" is or isn't the basis of a solid economy, this forum is rapidly declining to a state of disservice to readers. Even the most uneducated pin head recognizes "making stuff" beats the hell out of "managing a foreign company to make stuff for us". Primarily, the fact that we are undergoing grave doubts about the state of our economy, that we are even having this discussion at all, should serve to silence those who feel that a "service based economy" is economically or socially sound or sustainable. Truly disturbing in all of this are those who assert that England, Singapore, etc,,, are all doing well. Nothing protects an economy and the interests of workers as well as an industrial base. Particularly when "service based" economies falter. These economies still require food, products and parts that will have to be obtained from those economies that still "produce goods".

Making stuff
edweirdness writes: "Even the most uneducated pin head recognizes "making stuff" beats the hell out of "managing a foreign company to make stuff for us". "

Oh. You mean 'talent' scout. There's an uneducated pinhead for you, and I'll bet my bottom dollar he agrees with your statement.

Which is better? Making a product at $20/hr and selling it for $25, or paying someone to make the product at $10/hr and selling it for $20?

You do the math and let me know. For extra credit, which is better for the consumer?

Once we have that clear, we'll move on to comparative advantage.
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