Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, March 18, 2007
Robert Bluey :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Left-Wing Echo Chamber
by Robert Bluey
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Death threats. Harassing phone calls. Threatening e-mails. Such was a day in the life of Drew Johnson a few weeks ago.

His crime? Johnson is president of the Tennessee Center for Policy Research, a free-market think tank that broke one of the juiciest stories of 2007. A day after the Academy Awards, on Feb. 26, Johnson’s organization reported details of Al Gore’s enormous utility bill. The former vice president had consumed nearly 221,000 kilowatt hours of electricity in a single year -- more than 20 times the national average.

The story skyrocketed to the top headline on the Drudge Report, sending tens of thousands of visitors to the Tennessee Center for Policy Research’s Web site. With Gore facing charges of hypocrisy just a day after winning an Oscar for "An Inconvenient Truth," the news traveled fast.

Unfortunately for Johnson, it meant enduring days of attacks from liberals -- even though the facts of the story came directly from public records.

Last week he visited Washington, D.C., to share his story. Johnson told a group of conservative bloggers at The Heritage Foundation that he heard from hundreds of angry callers, many of whom used profane language. The research center’s vice president, whose phone number was listed on the Web page, eventually had to change her number when the attacks became so persistent and threatening.

The phone blitz was only one avenue liberals used to intimidate. Johnson said his organization received thousands of e-mails, the vast majority of them negative and hate-filled.

Shortly after the story made headlines, popular liberal blogs Daily Kos and Huffington Post, laid out their plan of attack. A blogger called NeuvoLiberal wrote on Daily Kos, "please post any specific (action oriented) ideas you have for fighting back…. We'd like to target every person out there that is spinning in various rightwing and other outlet for this kind of smear job (the damage is done before you wake and smell the coffee)."

Over at Huffington Post, bloggers Dave Johnson and James Boyce issued another call to action: "Al Gore is a hero. Even heroes need help - join us, add to the comments, let's find out everything we can about these guys and stop them in their tracks. Now."

Their pleas were answered. Liberal blog Think Progress led the way with 655 comments on a post about the Gore story. Daily Kos was close behind with 481 comments. And 125 comments are attached to the Johnson-Boyce call-to-action post.

All this added up to one giant headache for Drew Johnson, who didn’t know where to turn to respond to the attacks being lodged at him personally, his employees and the Tennessee Center for Policy Research. While the initial Gore story received favorable coverage from conservative bloggers, these same people were silent when liberals began to distort the record.

One of the most outrageous charges, Johnson said, had to do with his background. The liberal "watchdog" Media Matters dug into Johnson’s past, noting that he had been a Charles G. Koch Summer Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington. Since ExxonMobil has contributed to AEI, that bit of information was enough for Media Matters to assert that Johnson was bought and paid for by ExxonMobil. Immediately, the liberal echo chamber began to hype the allegation, though Johnson swiftly denied it. Johnson had merely interned at AEI. Neither he nor the Tennessee Center for Policy Research has ever received money from ExxonMobil. But that didn’t stop MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann from playing up the mythical connection.

Instead of backing down and retreating, the episode has inspired Johnson. His three days of meetings in the nation’s capital introduced him to a wider network of contacts and left him eager to help build a network of bloggers who could defend conservatives under attack.

He has also hired an investigative reporter to produce more stories similar to the one about Gore -- an unorthodox tactic for a think tank. But Johnson said sometimes that’s what it takes to discover the truth, no matter how inconvenient it may be for him personally.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Robert B. Bluey is director of the Center for Media & Public Policy at The Heritage Foundation and maintains a blog at RobertBluey.com
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Mr. Johnson
has my deepest sympathy having to put up with the screeching monkeys from the left simply exposing AlBore's huge utility bill. AlBore, the Fraud, the left's newest fascist henchman. One must not present facts or reality to the left. It's a big no-no.

Heh heh heh
No wonder Kimberly and some of the others have been MIA recently. They've been busy spamming this poor schmoe who had the absolte temerity to publish the.... ohmigod.... wait for it.... TRUTH.

Ah, well, like gnats in summer, they'll be back soon.

Pepp
All the Whale had to do was come to me, and I could have helped him solve his A/C bill problem.

I am, after all, not an engineer for naught.

Now, let's face it, the guy gets his suits tailored at Omar the Tentmaker.

Sooo, we simply rig up a basic framework over the top of his house, and hang a couple fo the sports coats he's not wearing in the framework.

Not only will his house be shaded from the sun, cutting his A/C bill, but since the shadow will undoubtedly cover most of his yard he can also cut back on the watering bill for the lawn.

Much easier than those pesky carbon credits.

It's interesting how people respond
to facts. Some ignore them. Some argue that the facts are not really facts. Some accept the facts but look for excuses, mitigating factors, etc. Some allow the facts to change their thinking. But some just attack the messenger. For these unfortunate wights, facts, truth have ceased to have any coherent meaning. Evidence is seen only as an attack and must be met with a counter-attack. Not to refute the evidence. Not to offer additional facts that may give a clearer picture of the truth. But to destroy the messenger.

Or, Brian,
he could've done what his Brit buddy, David Cameron, did and install a wind turbine on the roof of his house.

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/pruden031307.php3

BrianR and Cynewulf
Good one both of you.
I think Gore could solve his utility problem via the means we were discussing on another thread the other day. Putting tubes up people's butts and collecting the hot air, they get taxed for it also, and that ends the heating problem. AlBore has plenty of hot hair and obviously is full of gas, so he's good to go.

Why doesn't AlBore
have solar panels on his roof?

Guys! You're cracking me up!
Cyne, BTW, a new column today (George Will - RINO) on guns for your blog essay. I was going to tell you over there when I get through here.


But how come I don't get even a chuckle for my AlBore sports coat routine?

Man! Tough house!

BrianR
I like your sports coat idea. It was quite funny.
Good engineering idea. You should send that idea to him to help him. He obviously is so stupid, that while he runs around yelling the sky is falling, his own house is big leaker.

Hey BrianR
I wonder how many of those angry, profane phone calls that Johnson got were from Kimbat.

Pep,
like Brian said, no wonder she's been MIA. Especially since Olbermann chimed in. He sets all the moonbat sleeper cells to action.

Brian, re: GWill
Yeah, I saw that column, thought about linking it to my blog post, saw your review, and thought better of it. Maybe I will anyway.

Cynewulf
I like the reference to the "moonbat sleeper cells".

The TH server seems to be operating well tonight. There aren't too many of the moonbats out yet.

Cyne, Pepp
Pepp: Thanks for acknowledging my profound witticism. Your check's in the mail.

Cyne: Yeah, link it, but use the URL that goes directly to the page with comments, so others can see that stuff, too, and chime in if they wish. A suggestion, sorry if it sounded like direction.

Yahwol. Sieg Heil!

Pepp: LOL
Sure the server's working well.

It's late Sat night/Sun morning. There are probably only the three of us on the entire site!

Wow!
I just thought about the implications of my last post.




I HAVE to get a life!

Cynewulf
What a good article from that link you posted. Two zeros coming together. What a hoot.

BrianR
:-) Yeah, the both of us. I just got back home from baby sitting my grand kids. Then, I have to keep running out with my dog because he had to hold all of his business. Otherwise, I'd probably be in bed.

Brian,
sir, yes, sir!

Hey, if I knew you were handing out checks ...

And, I don't know if I need to get a life (probably), but I do need to get some sleep.

Pepp
Thanks for sharing the info about your dog's "business".


That was probably TMI (Too Much Information).


LOL

Pep, yeah,
that article is pretty funny. I particularly liked the part about Cameron riding his bike to work with his limousine following him with his briefcase inside.

Brian,
"Thanks for sharing the info about your dog's 'business'."

Thanks for bringing it up again. LOL

Hey guys
Sorry about that. Did you all just have a snack?

Cynewulf
And don't forget the shoes that Cameron's limousine driver brings too. Brief case and shoes. Cameron and Gore can share stories how they are defrauding everyone while their lifestyles are the height of decadence.

Great
Right Wing Electric Conspiracy to Embarrass Poor Al Gore
Just After His Acceptance of an Academy Award for a Deeply Flawed and Somewhat Inane PC Movie.

I just popped over to KOS and Huffing-post [sic], and I noticed---without much surprise---that the liberals were irate that Gore would be set up for embarrassment by publication of his energy use. There were all sorts of excuses: ex VP needs big house [does he have a litter of kids?]; it's too expensive where he lives to renovate his house [if he can afford $1400 a month for electric, he can afford fixing his house]; he can use all the energy he wants because he's a hero. And yet, there's no hypocricy according to many of them.

KOS was hard to follow. The format is typical liberal-speak: lots of calls to arms without any basis other than that the right wingers were "smearing" poor old Al.

If these people weren't so dangerous, they'd be hilarious. Who needs The Nose on Your Face, when you can visit a liberal site?

The threats to and harassment of Drew Johnson are execrable. The problem is that I'm not surprised at them. Such activity is par for the course for liberals who don't want the truth about anything published if it contradicts any of them.

If Air America [which I haven't heard] is anything like these liberal sites, I can see why it's failing. No ideas. Just rants and raves against the "right wing conspiracy."

Normally, I wouldn't propose the exile of anyone who says something I don't agree with, but liberals would do well in Antarctica where they can spew their hatred and inanities to the penguins.

Cheers.

great post!
Hey tnmcoy,
I like your last line:
"Normally, I wouldn't propose the exile of anyone who says something I don't agree with, but liberals would do well in Antarctica where they can spew their hatred and inanities to the penguins."

But I think, even penguins would get tired of them.

tnmccoy
Why does Algore From The Planet Eco need a house 10x the size of the average American home? Multiple choice;

1. Because he's part of the elite'. They need their castles to remind the rest of us that we're the peasants.

2. It's the actual White House. After all, he really won the 2000 election- according to him.

3. It's actually quite cramped inside. Or at least, his ego feels like it is.

4. All of the above.


Yes, (4) is the correct answer.


cheers

eon

Truly befuddled
The liberal elite--Gores, Huffingtons, Hollywoodies-- honestly don't expect to be questioned. They're genuinely puzzled by it, and so assume it's because someone doesn't like them (cause it's all about feelings), and not that there are some hypocrisies to address (that would be about facts).
After all, they are the champions of the poor. They see their rightful place as a palace, from which they can feel and advicate for the downtrodden. A 'cause' is the salve for their conscience.
They are truly befuddled by someone turning the camera back at them.
Otherwise, you'd just have to wonder why a guy would launch a world campaign to make himself the ecology king and never expect to have his own practices questioned.

tmnccoy
No, no, penguins are too cute. Don't sic the lefties on them. I think they should all be exiled to an island where they can bore each other to death.

blustrmom/grndmomx2
Don't worry so much. You've forgotten about the poor, starving polar bears (innocent victims of global warming). An influx of Loud-mouthed Libs will be a real godsend for them, not to mention some much-needed relief for the penguins.

Algore's Zinc Mines
If you want to see some more Algore inconsistent truths go to his home town newspaper. Today there is a real nice article about his zinc mine lease. Poor Al.

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070318/NEWS01/70316074/-1/NLETTER01

Will Kos Kids now flame Time magazine?
Time published this CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER editorial suggesting that if "Gore really wants to save the planet, he can try this: Turn off the lights. Ditch the heated pool. Ride the subway. And spare us the carbon-trading piety."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599714,00.html

Johnson started something very good. Let the Kos Kids and Huffies flame! With a few elegant karate moves we can use their own excesses to our advantage.


Excerpts.

Goldman Sachs has been one of the most aggressive firms on Wall Street about taking action on climate change; the company sends its bankers home at night in hybrid limousines.

--The New York Times, Feb. 25

Written without a hint of irony--if only your neighborhood dry cleaner sent his employees home by hybrid limousine--this front-page dispatch captured perfectly the eco-pretensions of the rich and the stupefying gullibility with which they are received.

Remember the Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore global-warming pitch at the Academy Awards? Before they spoke, the screen at the back of the stage flashed not-so-subliminal messages about how to save the planet. My personal favorite was "Ride mass transit." This to a conclave of Hollywood plutocrats who have not seen the inside of a subway since the moon landing and for whom mass transit means a stretch limo seating no fewer than 10.

Algora's box now open to rummage thru
southerncon writes: about Algore's Zinc Mines article.

Johnson has clearly opened up Algora's box for other's to rummage through.

Oh, Oh! Kos Kids and Hffy alert:

Bill Theobald left his e-mail address on this piece.

algor
This is really off-topic but (at least to me) interesting.

In the early '90's, I began listening to Rush Limbaugh, and he kept referring to Gore as "Algor." I wondered why, so I looked it up in my very old (from my high school days) dictionary, sure that it would somehow relate to "algorithm," though I couldn't imagine how.

Nope, no way "algoritm" or its base applied, but in my dictionary I found "algor," defined as "a chill felt during fever"--and it seemed to be right on.

Of course, later I learned that Rush was playing on "Igor," assistant to Dr. Frankenstein. Very, very good, but I like "algor" better.

Unfortunately, I have not found "algor" in any recent dictionary, even online. Do you suppose the Gore's, at some point, legislated it out?

Edicts from the 'elite'
Poor Mr. Johnson. What naivite'. He didn't realize all the edicts handed down from rich and famous people like Al Gore about conserving resources, and the dangers of Global Warming (Duh! like this is the first time), apply only to us! Not to Mr. Gore's family, or Barbra Streisand, or anyone one else in the rarified atmosphere of the 'elites'. They deliver edicts on how warm we should keep our house, how we should hang our clothes out, instead of drying them in a dryer, what kind of car we should buy,how much energy we consume, etc.
But those 'edicts' just don't apply to THEM.

Silly man!

Take Heart
Mr. Johnson's of Algore's hypocrisy was brilliant in its simplicity!

My 13 year old son recently had AIC forced down his throat at school, and I was fighting a battle to convince him it was full of nonsense. I was reading article after article, but the movie was so terrifying to him that he was still questioning the validity. When he learned about Algore's energy usage, even his young mind could instantly grasp that this guy didn't believe a word of what he said.

Mr. Johnson can take heart in the fact that his fact-finding mission delivered the irrefutable message that Algore is a hypocrite and a liar.

blustrmom
Funny post. And, have AlBore as the chief bore on the island. The others will soon commit suicide.

Power guzzling Gore
Gosh darn him. Talking about Global warming and then using using electricity. I can't really tell why he uses so much energy since the report cited by Bluey and Drudge doesn't break it down, just that He uses 20 times the power of an average home. shame on him.

I don't care if he runs a business from his home. I don't care if he employs several people (hundreds maybe?). I don't care if his home is on a farm and the bill is for everything.

I don't care...Well actually I don't know, because the moral pygmies reported what they wanted to, not the circumstances of the power usage. One more republican cheap shot.

He talks global warming and the right uses unemployed shills of the tobacco industry to cast doubt on his data. He uses lots of power, therefore he can't be serious about global warming. Gee, what do you suppose Bush uses on his farm? Or, how about Quayle and his mansion? No, No, because Gore uses more power than average, he is a hypocrite.

Dumpster diving logic by the right.

We might be having a cold spell this winter. Its dropping down to the low 80s today.

BLH
It's 23 degrees where I live. Your reference to a temp doesn't prove anything. Nor do your references to Al "employing" hundreds of people at his residence is silly. He doesn't work a farm either.

Read upwards
If you want to see the perfect definition of an echo chamber, read upwards.

In fact, read any thread on this Blog!

Bleeding Heart Liberal
Let's see! The Nashville Electric Service is the Author of Republican Cheap Shots.....Giggle! for keeping record of Gore's energy usage? And Mr.Johnson is a bad guy for presenting information that is 'public record'?
Sorry Dude! If you talk the 'talk'......you better walk the 'walk'.
Al Gore getting caught in another 'lie' isn't "cheap shots".....It's predictable!

Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth
It's very simple.....either Al used the power or he didn't. It does not matter about "offsets" that the Liberals want us to take into consideration, either they burned through the energy or they didn't.

Public records indicate that Al did consume excessive energy, therefore he is a hypocrite (big surprise), period!! End of story, rhetoric, and spin!!!

JR

JR
What I admire about conservatives is that their lives and world views are so simple....or is it simplistic?

Well, who cares, anyway, none of it is working.

JoJo
Y'know, some issues really ARE simple.

You Lefties are the ones who like to muddy the water with all your "nuances", a la Jean Francois Kerry.


How to Be a Hypocrite
It is impossible to be a hypocrite without actually sanding for something first. When in the public eye, there are many, many people always looking for hypocrisy. Gore is a hypocrite because he took a stand that he didn't actually live.

What I find interesting is how people on the right deal with being caught in hypocrisy as compare to those on the left. We've heard no apology from Gore, no attempts to change, not even excuses. Meanwhile his supporters go on the attack. Contrast this with Ted Haggard, Rush Limbaugh, and others.

Lefties
We all know that the lefties are the "do as I say, not do as I do crowd."
They can push for the hybrid cars all the want, but here's a news flash for them.
With them all Hispandering to the Hispanics, they have let the Legal US citizen down, way down in wages. SO how do these ba$tards think that the new poor can afford these hybrids???
After all their world view doesn't take in the US, unless there's something in it for them.
Newsflash to Hollyweird also, I don't watch YOUR movies either. THEY are one of the biggest users of energy on MAKING their movies, BUT then they get to use CARBON CREDITS, got that folks, that means they can us YOURS AND MINE, but never mind, it is all about THEM. THAT is the Inconvenient Truth.
They could give a fat fig less about us, it is all about them, and what they want US to do, like someone else said, Baba Streisand has a 10,000 sq. ft. beach house using up the kilowatts, but don't you DARE bring that up.
AND Bill Gates, the GREAT Philothranpist, sure fighting aids in Africa (a good cause), he has his BILLIONS, BUT he is LOBBYING CONGRESS FOR MORE H1B Visas, so he can bring in CHEAP LABOR for Microsoft and the other users of our Engineering and computer degrees, SURE $CREW US CITIZENS WHO HAVE PAID THOUSANDS FOR THEIR DEGREES, THEY WON'T WORK AS CHEAP AS THE PEOPLE FROM ASIA. So you see, the elitists are ALL ABOUT ME, $CREW the rest of us.
Just remember this MR. Gates, at one time YOU were one of us.
I'm ready to tell Microsoft to go to the place they are telling us to go to.

I'll Take Gore Seriously
When he rooms with Ed Begley Jr.

Bleeding hear Liberal says:
Are you talking about the same Tobacco shills that he SOLD HIS tobacco to???
And here's another for you.
DID Global warming ONLY come into affect since he LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE???
The self same lefties who were going to cover the polar ice caps in the 70's because of, dare I say it. Another Ice Age.

BrianR
"You Lefties are the ones who like to muddy the water with all your "nuances", a la Jean Francois Kerry."
-----------

God, Brian, you are so deep. Maybe George Will can use that in his next column.

BIG AL's "Live Earth" Concert

The Senate is considering a 'Special Resolution' that would allow Al Bore to stage a "Live Earth" concert on the STEPS OF THE CAPITOL BUILDING!

Considering the global warming crowd sees GW as their Religion, shouldn't this be DIS-allowed under the 1st Amendment > the doctrine of 'Seperation of Church and State'?

Also heard a Dem. strategist refer to Mr.Bore as get this,
"...not a multi-time loser. Look, he's an ACADEMY AWARD WINNER now..." ROFLMAO

BUT the fact is...give BIG AL a Nobel Prize and, you'll be amazed at how fast a guy his size can move as he gets into the race for the White House.


Support Fred Thompson '08

Visit: Draft Fred Thompson



Mimimary
Actually, Bill Gates grew up very well off. His father was wealthy and he suffered not as a fledgling. His father is a limosine liberal too.

The correct response ...
...to character attack is not to answer the "charge" but to find more juicy stories.

Not much is said
about the economic crisis this pseudo global warming is going to cause us. Yesterday I heard economists saying that with the controls that Gore wants to put on our industries that will raise the price of oil at the pump to at least $4/gal.

Then, all the industries who use oil will have to charge more for their products.

Once again, as mimimary was saying, this only hurts those less financially well off as others such as Hollyweird.

I can see it now. The price of everything suddenly sky rockets due to all the government regulations on businesses and their products. We are all taxed for the carbon we use or give out. People stop spending because they don't have the cash. Next thing we're in a recession. Nice way to spell a death knoll to the good, rolling economy we have right now.

Meanwhile, while China will be holding to no one on what pollution they give out in the world, their economy can continue to boom, at least for awhile until our economic demise hits them and everyone else since we are "global" economically now.


Hypocrisy insufficient to win arguments
The Left's reaction to this "inconvenient truth" is just more proof that morality to them is determined not by a person's actions, but by what political causes he supports.

With regard to the charge of hypocrisy:

"How often have conservatives asked rhetorically of liberals: 'Why do you care about THIS (reducing the average Joe's energy consumption) but not about THAT (Algore's obscene energy consumption)?' But the conservative always leaves it as a rhetorical challenge implying some kind of hypocrisy on the part of the Left, but not spelling out the decisive conclusion about the Left. The decisive conclusion is that the Left DOESN’T CARE ABOUT THE THINGS IT PROFESSES TO CARE ABOUT. It doesn’t care about oppression, say. It uses the charge of oppression to target parties it doesn’t like.

"One of the great intellectual failures of modern conservatives is that they think the charge of 'hypocrisy' is sufficient to win an argument. Hypocrisy is not the problem. Everybody is hypocritical in various ways. Charging someone with hypocrisy carries no particular charge. Also, hypocrisy is not necessarily so bad, since hypocrisy may only be an affirmation of standards that the person may actually believe in but is not acting consistently on in all circumstances. For example, a politician who presents an image of a happy family life but in fact has cheated on his wife may be a hypocrite, but he may really believe in fidelity as the standard, he’s just failing to live up to it in his own life.

"But the Leftist hypocrisy points to something far graver. The Left claims to care about man-caused global warming, and seeks to destroy offenders when it gets them in their sights. But the Left really doesn’t care about global warming per se. It cares only about advancing its agenda and power.

"A great demonstration of this in recent years was when the feminists, who a few years before had sought to destroy Clarence Thomas over an infinitely lesser charge of merely speaking to a woman and had destroyed Bob Packwood for grabbing women and kissing them, didn’t come to the side of Juannita Broaddrick in her charges that Clinton had raped her. That proved conclusively, not just that feminists were 'hypocrites,' (again, a charge that carries no particular charge), but that the feminists literally don’t care about the things they profess to care so passionately about. They use these things only to destroy the people they don’t like and advance their own power.

"If conservatives in debates with liberals did what I’ve done here, if they went beyond merely saying, 'You liberals care about this (fill in the cause), but you don’t care about that (fill in the cause),' and if they instead said, 'You liberals DON’T CARE about (fill in the cause). You just want to use the charge to oppress your enemies,' that would expose the Left for what it is and alter the whole course of political debate." -- Lawrence Auster

Peppermint
That was what Non-acceptance of the Kyoto accord was all about. The way it would have worked would have been an across the board (13%? to begin with) cut in emissions from every signatory nation.

When you factor in how much of the US economy is reliant on 'fossil fuel burning' industry, as opposed to say, France, Germany, England or any other participant, the harm to the economy here would have been catastrophic while the Euros would have had a relatively minor impact on their own economies.

Another point is this, none of those countries has even come close to meeting the terms of Kyoto but you can bet if we had agreed to it they would all be whining and griping that we weren't meeting our obligation.

Also, there is right now, a movement going on among the Dem leadership to create legislation that would keep third world, under-developed countries from burning fossil fuels if they expect to recieve any US aid. Just another example of the elitists telling the peons that what is good for the goose, isn't necessarily good for the gander.

Not to mentioon it is a fine way to drive potential trading partners into the arms of our economic and political rivals (Russia, China, Venezuela etc.). Leave it to the Dummycrats to undermine their own people at every possible turn.



Another side of the story
I was just over at Huffington Post, reading comments on another Gore-related story. Several suggested that Gore needed to gear down his lifestyle and make his energy use more consistent with his message. That's from people on the left who generally like the guy.

Interesting contrast, isn't it? Sure, there are some on the left who don't like to admit unpleasant realities about the people and policies they support, but generally speaking, they are far more in touch with the "reality based world" than conservatives. Witness, for example, the desperate attempts on the right to deny the plain facts of the Plame outing case (i..e, people in the White House wrecklessly outed a CIA agent, thereby endangering lives) and global warming (i.e., the "inconvenient" number of scientists who agree that it is real, serious, and largely human-induced).

Why, thank you, JoJo
I'll be happy to let him do so, for a nominal fee.

sedonaman
Aside from the idea Lefties don't give a rats a$$ about being hypocrits...

The fact is they wear the lable like a badge of honor. Hypocrisy = Superiority to them.

It is a strange and mysterious world way down inside the rabbit hole.

Magnificus
Yes, I know that's why we don't sign the Kyoto treaty and I hope we never do.

As you say, the Democraps are always willing to do what is best for others, but leave us in a ditch.

Where am I?
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Those living in an echo chamber should not accuse others of doing so. Though liberal and conservative ehco chamber web sites have some things in common, the conservatives are a whole lot dumber, on average.

If Bluey had read the dailkos post that the comment section was from, he would have seen that the Gore electric bill story had been debunked. The comments were on the subject of how to get mainstream news publishing the Drudged up slime on Gore also to publish the rejoinder.

johninoregon
You submit this gem,
"I was just over at Huffington Post"

"Witness, for example, the desperate attempts on the right to deny the plain facts of the Plame outing case (i..e, people in the White House wrecklessly outed a CIA agent, thereby endangering lives) and global warming (i.e., the "inconvenient" number of scientists who agree that it is real, serious, and largely human-induced)."

Rather than waste my valuable time arguing with you, I will instead say;

PUHL-EEZE...GO BACK TO HUFFPO!


BrianR
I too am really impressed with the compliment that Jo Jo gave you.
You do write impressive posts.

The FlamePlameDame
is a perjurer. She friggin lied under oath before the senate committee.

The woman, who co-authored the bill regarding undercover CIA agents testified the PlameDame was NOT covert under the law.

On top of that, do any of you liberals wonder why, if PlameDame was outed, your hero Fitzpatrick did not indict and try the person who outed her?

Duh, because she was not covert.

iberalgoodman
So...
"the Gore electric bill story had been debunked"

Does this debunking you mention fall under the category of "if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth"...? Because I gotta tell ya', IF it had been TRULY DEBUNKED I would think I would have seen it as the lead story or above the fold headline in every MSM outlet in the free world.

Nice try though.

Pepp: LOL
Why, thank you, ma'am.

(Digs toe of boot in the dirt while looking down abashedly)

BrianR
Ah. That's such a cute image you paint. You're most welcome. I do think you are a very good debater with good references and thoughtful points. I was not just kidding.

Thanks, Pepp
.

Rainmakers
Oh, good grief. Humans can't even make rain when there's a drought, and now we are to believe that we control the entire global climate.

Manfredo
We love it when you talk dirty to us.

Manfred, BrainR, Peppermint, etc.
I'll even elaborate on my compliment - I think you are at the top of the Conservative Intellectual forces - without a doubt, you are the smartest and most literate of all the conservatives I've seen posting, the obvious brain trust of the entire Republican Party.

That probably explains why you are all doing so well politically.


Shameless plug
for my blog. I have an article that referencing global warming and the Creation on my site. Come on over if you get the chance. Just click on my handle.

JoJo
Thanks for the compliment. Appreciate it.

Small islands
When you have houses the size of Edwards' and Gore's, which are about the size of small islands, the electricity bill has to be astronomical.

By the way, if what is said is the truth, can it be a "smear"?

I have a question.
Aren't right wingers suppoesed to be the shrill, ignorant extremists?
And Liberals are supposed to be the enlightened and reasonable defenders of scientific truth.
Death Threats... I thought that was just another right-wing extremist tool, Liberals could never stoop so low as to send death threats... right?

CC
"if what is said is the truth, can it be a "smear"?"

ONLY if you use Leftist/Socialist ILLogic.

This is why the country is in so much trouble these days. Libs can explain away anything & everything by attacking the truthful messenger.

Just a bit over the top
dontcha think?

peppermint
i am astounded at conservative lack of morals when it comes to plame.

the facts are these.

valerie plame swore under oath she was covert.
(if she lied why aren't republican congressman calling for her to be charged with perjury)

the federal prosecutor who spent 3 years and read 50000 pages of classified materials said she was covert.

the newly appointed (by bush) cia director says she was covert.

this is a perfect example of the conservative echoe chamber. i have asked again and again for one the name of one person who has DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of plames status who contradicts her story.

cons cannot do it. they spin and spin and spin and ultimately come back to the immoral position that a traitorous act was just fine by them.

they invoke clinton and gore and liberals but never ever do they talk about facts.

anyone who supports this spin is simply supporting immorality and in your heart you know that is a fact.

JoJo
Yes, I second Pepp's thanks.

I, too, am impressed with your intellect...


By the way, the "i" comes before the "a" in Brian.

How about the Senate Intelligence cmte
They don't say whether she is "covert" or not, but they have evidence that definately contridicts Plame's testimony.

I will also say again. How is an individual "covert" when she has been outed twice already? Is that person only "covert" if our enemies know who she is, but the American public does not?

religiouslib
Spin? Tell me then oh, wise one, how come Fitzpatrick tried and convicted Libby on a charge of "lying" instead of convicting Armitage of "outing" this PlameDame?

Got an answer for that one?

Victoria Toensing, the woman who co-authored the law about covert agents is the one who testified to the Senate in direct contradiction to PlameDame's testimony. Victoria Toensing stated that according to the law (that she wrote) PlameDame was NOT covert.

Now, do your best liberal spin on that one.

Now, once again, tell me why Armitage is not being prosecuted for "outing" Plame?

BrianR
JoJO wrote Brain instead of Brian because he/she thinks of you as a brain. It's a Freudian slip.

Peppermint
If you recall, Victoria Toensing didn't have much of a chance to testify about the law. Rep. Waxman was more interested in furthering his ideological stance than actually finding out the facts.

Norman
You asked, "Aren't right wingers suppoesed to be the shrill, ignorant extremists?"

Not at all! Here is a typical example of the tempered, articulate, and smart comments by right wingers:

jojo is a stupid monkey
who eats his own poo
he's in love with Al Gore
they're going to get gay married
in a big mansion
that burns coal
becuase monkeys
like to burn coal
and get gay married
and they also make out
with terrorists
in filthy terrorist-
monkey-fat former vice president
threesomes that are
surprisingly oily
considering how
monkeys and
terrorists
and former vice
presidents are all
supposed to hate
oil so much.

------------------

I think this is considered fairly representative of the right-wing mindset. I think, actually, peppermint and Brian are co-authors, but I wouldn't want to steal credit from Manfredo...after all, he's about the closest conservatives come to wisdom.

norman
Yes, I do recall what Waxman did. He tried his best to shut her down because he didn't want to hear the truth. Oh, so like the left. Forget the facts, the law, whatever, forget it, if it doesn't agree with our agenda, like you said.

One thing I have to say for Victoria Toensing, irregardless of Waxman's harrassing, embarrassing, and rude handling of her, she remained the calm and collected, class act she is.

JoJo
Wow,
I am definately ashamed by a few on my side of the aisle. There shouldn't be any excuse for that kind of talk in any debate. I didn't see that in any post, but I have seen on other blogs some of the extremists. If someone really did post that, I apologize.

There is no reason to stoop so low no matter how idiotic we feel their logic may be.

Peppermint
Yes, she did. And he came across as everything Liberals try to portray us as being. Bullies.

Fact is...

Plame was never directly asked "Under the law, were you a covert agent?"

When Victoria Toensing testified one of the members asked her, no actually TOLD her
"Ms. Wilson was SWORN when she testified."
To which Toensing replied;
"I am SWORN also."

The exchange was a backhanded threat to Toensing who stood her ground. Her performance in standing up to the worm Alan Colmes later that evening when he pulled the same inquisition style tactics of the committee by cutting Ms Toensing off mid-sentence, attempting to put words in her mouth, talking over her answers, etc. should leave even the most ardent Plame/Wilson supporter ashamed and embarassed.

The real questions remain;
If plame was actually covert why isn't Richard Armitage under indictment?
And if Fitzy knew from the beginning it was Armitage who 'outed' her, why was the investigation continued?

How do Libs spell Inquisition? j-u-s-t-i-c-e



Magnificus
You're right, she wasn't asked if she was covert under the law. When she was confronted about the law and covert status, she said she didn't know how the law covered her.

Okay JoJo
I saw the poem. But it's unfortunate that you've tried to implicate others when Manfredo admits that he wrote it.

Should I take that as typical of the Liberal side, to place blame on everyone else with whom you disagree.

Manfredo
Please tell me that you're not as idiotic as you are making yourself out to be
"is so filled with hatred that he doesn't understand how much I hate him."

I don't like Liberal ideology anymore than you do, but I do have friends that are Liberal. Just because I disagree with them doesn't mean that I have to spit out the hate filled rhetoric of an extremist.

Manfredo, I think you make some good points, but they are all lost under that pile of vitriol. It's okay to get angry at Liberal idiocy, but when you serve your retort up like you have, you become marginalized.

Or maybe I am wrong
Or maybe you just have a really strange sense of humor

religiouslib
From the transcript:

REP. DAVIS: The Intelligence Identities Protection Act makes it a crime to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert agent, which has a specific definition under the act. Did anyone ever tell you that you were so designated?

MS. PLAME WILSON: I'm not a lawyer.

REP. DAVIS: That's why I asked if they told you. I'm not asking for your interpretation.

MS. PLAME WILSON: No, no. But I was covert. I did travel overseas on secret missions within the last five years.

REP. DAVIS: I'm not arguing with that. What I'm asking is, for purposes of the act -- and maybe this just never occurred to you or anybody else at the time -- but did anybody say that you were so designated under the act? Or was this just after it came to fact?

MS. PLAME WILSON: No, no one told me that. And that --

REP. DAVIS: How about after the disclosure?

MS. PLAME WILSON: Pardon me?

REP. DAVIS: How about after the disclosure, did anyone the n say gee, you were designated under the act, this should not have happened? Did anybody in the CIA tell you at that point?

MS. PLAME WILSON: No.

idahogal
if you read carefully davis says he doesn't argue with the fact that she is covert.
isn't that something, i thought conservatives have claimed for 2 years she wasn't covert. now you are arguing that she wasn't designated covert under the act.

how does it feel to be in bed with bill clinton because you might as well be telling me what the definition of is---- is.

Brown Shirts
So... somebody took the unprecedented initiative to consult public records and determined that the undisputed "champion" of AGW does not appear to be able to manage his own energy use - at least nowhere near the "carbon footprint" he believes the "rest" of us should leave behind.

And so, predictably, our "Champion's" supporters react in typical "shoot the messenger" fashion, hurling insults and death threats and beating the drum loud & often that the truth is a lie... until the lie becomes truth (see "liberalgoodman's" 3:11 PM post that this story has been "debunked").

Other than actually resorting to violence (yet), these liberal/socialists employ the exact same methods used so effectively by Hitler's personal guard, the Brown Shirts", prior to his "election" as Chancellor. The first and most important tactic -- the ends justify the means.

Hmmm... also sounds a little like the Quran which teaches that lying to infidels is NOT immoral!

magnificus
as usual with conservatives you want to re-write history.

yes armitage leaked but so did rove (by his own admission) and libby.
that is why miller and cooper went to jail remember.

the question should be who told them.

never-the-less plame was covert. spin all you want and if she lied why havent republican congressmen accused her of perjury or even better proved that she was lying.

because they can't because she was not lying.

Norman
You are right, but if you read (past tense) up the thread you will see why I implicated peppermint and BrianG as co-authors of the poem. I have never responded to right-wing accusations that include generalities, bumper slogans, or vitriol with anything but quotes from other conservatives. I never make them up myself. I have been told I am a cancer that should be excised, a stain upon the earth, America, a liar, and that I should try suicide, so when I read conservative statements about how low liberals are I just send back what they have sent me. Childish? Yes, of course, but temporarily satisfying.

There are almost no thoughtful or sincere attempts to persuade or debate on this blog..there are exceptions, but they are few and far between, terribly hard to find. I would welcome a discussion with conservatives that is a product of good faith and an attempt to see both sides of an issue. That doesn't have much chance of happening here, although I continue to look for it.

What I really feel badly about at times is when I respond in kind to people who are just this side of developmentally abled or are alcoholic, or so homebound that they have nothing else to do, or nothing else they can do but sit at their computers all day and spend hour after hour in this form of ideological onanism. Yes, I know it happens on both sides, I just hoped that the level of discourse would be a little more enlightened here.

Nobody here really cares what anybody else thinks, or says, it's just a form of X-Box with words, a game where shooting down your opponent is the object of the game, not political discussion or the sharing of viewpoints. Nobody reads anything longer than a paragraph (nobody will read this) because nobody wants to consider any other point of view.




religiouslib

I note you and all of your bedfellows just don't seem to be able to construct a cogent answer when asked a perfectly sensible question, that being:

If Plame was covered as a covert agent under the law, why didn't Fitzgerald indict Armitage for her "outing"?

Until you (or another of your fellow travelers) answer this question with any degree of sincerity & common sense, then I will assume the rest of this entire "Plame' affair is just a distraction from the truly important issues facing our great nation.

peppermint
exactly what information does toensig have to contradict plame.

does she know if plame was stationed overseas. no
does she know if plame was on secret missions. no

as far as armitage, libby and rove who all leaked.

you guys just don't get it.

fitzgerald was after whoever it was that leaked to rove libby and armitage.

that is why he charged libby. libby would not tell him truthfully who told him. sheesh

armitage was not engaged in the effort to discredit wilson. we know from the libby trial that someone in the white house was.
and if there was an organized effort to release plames name and status than that was illegal.

draw your own conclusions but literally denying facts is so conservative of you.

bush doesn't lie.
everyone else does.
cheney doesn't lie
everyone else does
libby doesn't lie
everyone else does.
rove doesn't lie
everyone else does.
gonzales doesn't lie
everyone else does.

isn't it amazing that the adminstrations is full of people who never lie but anyone who questions them is immediately the liar.

republicanism has become the standard for immorality in this county because you are willing to overlook morals for political purposes.

JoJo
Engaging in literary absolutes with words such as -- "nobody here" does this or "nobody here" does that -- is not a method likely to induce the intellectual interaction you claim to want.

I know from experience as a semi-regular here at TH that if a liberal truly wishes to engage in debate and truly wishes such debate to stay above the fray and not degrade to name-calling and insults, the more successful liberal posters have refrained from insults and generalizations despite what they have endured from our less than tactful brethren.

Remember that TH IS a conservative site, just as I recognize the Kos is a liberal site. If I post on Kos, I do so knowing I'm the "visitor" of many liberals who see Kos as their "home".

Just some food for thought... Primus54 :-)

religiouslib
Excuse me, but there is a difference between being "undercover" and being "covert" as defined by Intelligence Identities Protection ACT. Any CIA agent working overseas is "covert" in Plame's interpretation. You cannot leak that which is known. Plame drove to work everyday. She entered the building everyday in plain sight. She was not "covert" in the sense of the ACT. That is why no one else has been indicted. And Libby was convicted because he had a poor memory, IMHO. He should have taken the Clinton's way out - "I don't recall" repeated 500 times.

And I don't appreciate your assessment of me. I am not willing to overlook morals for political purposes. I have an honest disagreement with you. I'm not calling you immoral for disagreeing with me. But I am getting mighty tired of the name calling on both sides. It serves no purpose and if your only reason for being here is to do so, well, I pity you.

big al
With all the smears that the original posters had to contend with I noticed that noone denied that the statements were true.

Facts are stubborn things.

Primus
I have done it both ways - in the end, it's lost time.

I understand that TH is a conservative blog - the problem is that one has to dig through too much muck to find anything worth thinking or writing about. I'm sure that's true for various blogs on both the left and the right.

Anyway, I think I'm still learning about the whole blog thing, and I'm guessing that trying to find a blog with serious, interesting, and civil discourse is more about finding the blog that attracts those kinds of posters, whether they are conservative or liberal - I would love to find a conservative blog, for example, that just operated on a different level - that probably would bore or disinterest most of the posters I see here (or on the same type of liberal blog).

If you know of any, I'd appreciate the link.


Idahogal
I have a poor memory also, but I would not be likely to forget 9 separate occasions that had to do with the same thing.

If Libby's memory was really, truly that bad he shouldn't have been working in the white house.

In the end, this isn't much different than the Martha Stewart case - did she lie, or didn't she?
Did she really forget that she had ordered her stock to be sold the night before it crashed?

Courts, and justice are never about justice, as any legal historian or expert will tell you. It's about applying the law which is often unfair. Twelve people decided after more than a week that the idea of Libby forgetting he ohad told reporters 9 seperate times was just not credible.

Also, why are you throwing up Clinton? He was impeached, for God's sake. He hardly got away with it.

JoJo
Well, I see that in my absence you have now accused me of writing something that was actually written by someone else, evidently simply because you don't like me or the post you accuse me of writing.

And while doing it, you've once again managed to even get my name wrong. It's BrianR, not BrianG. At least this time you got the "Brian" part right.

And you accuse others of lack of clarity, when the best you seem to be able to come up with is ad hominem nonsense?

I am underwhelmed, as you seem to be shooting intellectual blanks in your attacks on me.

JoJo
You are right, I haven't taken the time to read what everyone has written so I wouldn't know what others have said to you. I personally welcome the debate and definately get irritated at ignorance, no matter what side of the aisle the person is on.
_____________________

As far as "why Republicans haven't pressed perjury charges" I can think of several reasons.
1.) They are in the minority, and it would be embarrassing to them to have the Democrats block their attempts at bringing up charges against Plame.

2.) This investigation just barely started. It took several years before they ever brought charges on Libby after he made "false" statements.

3.) The Republicans have this nasty habit of trying to appease their Liberal counterparts. Example- Remember how over the last few years Liberals have accused the Bush administration about lying about WMDs to get us into war with Iraq. Remember last year when Senator Santorum brought forward the fact that we had indeed found 500 canisters of chemical weapons in Iraq. And then remember how the Bush Administration came out and said "no, those weren't the weapons we were looking for. Those were their prior to the first invasion." So, even though Saddaam was supposed to account for what happened to all of his WMDs, and was unable to do so and therefore we invaded Iraq. Then after we invaded, the Bush Administration kept the knowledge of these cannisters hidden. And when this finally was exposed, the Administration undercuts itself all so that Liberals could keep chanting "Bush Lied!" Why do you think that a party with absolutely no new ideas won the last election. Conservatives are getting sick and tired of Republican's self defeating attitudes in regards to Liberals

SPIN
You have a nerve talking about spin!!!

"fitzgerald was after whoever it was that leaked to rove libby and armitage.
that is why he charged libby. libby would not tell him truthfully who told him. sheesh"

Now lib...let's try this one last time.

Q: "The Intelligence Identities Protection Act makes it a crime to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert agent, which has a specific definition under the act. Did anyone ever tell you that you were so designated?"

A: "I'm not a lawyer."

Q: "That's why I asked if they told you. I'm not asking for your interpretation.

A: No, no.

AND THEN she does go into HER interpretation even though she has admitted "I'm not a lawyer."

..."But I was covert. I did travel overseas on secret missions within the last five years."

ie THAT meets the criteria for ONE PART of the LAW

Q: I'm not arguing with that. What I'm asking is, for purposes of the act -- and maybe this just never occurred to you or anybody else at the time -- but did anybody say that you were so designated under the act? Or was this just after it came to fact?

A: No, no one told me that. And that --

Q: How about after the disclosure, did anyone then say gee, you were designated under the act, this should not have happened? Did anybody in the CIA tell you at that point?

A: No.


So you see libs one and all... we are talking about A LAW... THERE IS NO GREY AREA!!

Plame was either COVERT UNDER THE LAW or SHE WAS NOT!!

PS
The jury is in...she wasn't covert as described in the articles of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (THE LAW)

We can be sure of this because you can bet the house that SHE would be SURE OF IT if she indeed were.

Because even if as she admitted "I'm not a lawyer." HER LAWYER IS A LAWYER & HE WOULD HAVE TOLD HER BY NOW.

yet to the question

"How about after the disclosure, did anyone (HERE IS WHERE ONE WOULD THINK HER LAWYER FITS IN) then say gee, you were designated under the act, this should not have happened?"

her answer was "NO"

Think about it.




Hey JoJo
If you manage to find that Blog, tell me. The one thing about the internet is that everyone has a voice, no matter how far out there their opinion is.

I dislike
having to resort to redundancy...but you LIBtards make it so's I must reiterate the same point over and over....sheeeesh

BrianR
Sorry, Brian, I really mean it. I did get you confused because I responded to something you said on another post and apparently was thinking of that.

In all honesty, though, I think I had lumped you in with some of the others because your post from yesterday seemed full of insults..If i'm wrong, I'll accept it.

"Tehran Kim" Alert
May of you have noticed and commented on the absence of our resident "Tokyo Rose", aka, "Tehran Kim."

Through deductive reasoning, which I confess may be completely off-base, I believe Kimmie is on "Spring Break".

I base this on the presumption that she is a fulltime "professional" student, probably in her sixth or seventh year of ever-changing majors, still pursuing that first bachelor's degree... that she still lives at home and her wealthy parents feel obligated to send her on these annual sojourns as a way of coping with their guilt for being alive and liberal.

Since Kim is normally one of the first to post comments on threads that begin at midnight, I further surmise she's a left coast gal.

Does anybody know if Berkeley has been on break this past week?

:-)

JoJo
Like BrianR, I take umbrage to your putting my name to a poem I did not write. To insults that I did not use at you.

Are you sure you are not the drunk one? I don't see either Brian or myself having tossed any insults in your direction.

We did thank you for the compliments you gave us on one of the posts.

JoJo
You must have me confused with someone else; I've never written a comment aimed at you before. This thread is the first.

I did notice yesterday there was another poster, "Brian" with no "R" at the end, writing a bunch of posts. I didn't pay him any attention, so I have no idea what he was writing about other than to the extent that I noticed the tone was definitely not one I would have used.

Anyway, no harm done. It happens. I'm glad we cleared the air.

JoJo
Frankly, this site at one time was more like what you describe you are looking for.

Tonwhall began advertising the site in mainstream hyperspace and the overall level of discourse has declined with the addition of many newbies here, of both political bents.

BrianR is one of a number of truly intelligent posters here... and his personal blog (click on his name) is a must read for many of we conservatives.

All of us, myself included, occasionally lose patience in a debate when we cannot find any common ground of agreement, or when this site has been obviously penetrated by a "professional" blogger doing nothing but spewing pre-packaged talking points.

Stick around a while... you will no doubt get insulted, but you'll also find some fine debaters.


Thanks, Primus
I appreciate the kind words.



And the blog plug!

Norman
Here's what I think: The charges of perjury that were brought against Libby were based on his testimony to the Grand Jury, and the second jury just wasn't convinced that he had forgotten nine separate occasions of telling reporters about Plame. That's a really, really bad memory - mine is bad (ask Brian) but not that bad. I don't think anybody can say that the jury was made up of liberals, or they were out to get Libby. They deliberated for a long time and even admitted that they hated seeing Libby take the rap for Cheney, etc.

I said somewhere else that anybody practicing law in any capacity will tell you that law is never about justice, it's about applying the legal standards to all situations. The results are often unfair.

Here's the thing: I'm not disagreeing that Conservatives didn't bring perjury charges for the reasons you state; but I think that these things happen in a continuum that all kinds of other issues feed, like streams into a river. Even the press is saying now that they laid down and rolled over when Clinton was impeached, for example, or when Bush conflated Hussein and 9/11 twelve times in the same speech and it went unchallenged. They now say that history might have been different had they not been so swept up in public sentiment. I even read a NY Times reporter say that Bush got better coverage right before the first election because they treated the press better, and had better food, which caused travelling reporters to just feel more amenable and less critical.

To you, a conservative, it may seem like Republicans don't stand up for themselves, to me, a liberal, I feel the same about the Democrats.

For the record, I don't think that many liberals think Bush deliberately lied about WMDs in the sense that he knew they weren't there. Most liberals think that B. really did think they were there, wanted to believe they were there and constructed a supporting case where everything that argued against it was thrown out.
Liberals are angry because they feel it has been an incredible blunder at the cost of too many lives.

religiouslib
You still have not answered a simple question: Why has Armitage not been charged if he allegedly outed PlameDame?


If Rove "outed" PlameDame as you alleged, then why is he not being charged? Fitzpatrick is certainly no champion for the administration.

And, you libs are wrong about conservatives. If someone commits a crime, then we believe they should be held accountable. The problem here is that no crime was committed.


BrianR
There is a lib... a far left lib who goes by BrianJ... Gotta admit when I first came to TH I think I attributed some of his stuff to you.

So sorry if I ever accused you of anything he wrote or displayed an attitude towards you way back then...but that guy is really out there & it gets frustrating trying to deal with him.

JoJo
I'm still waiting for that apology you owe me.

idahogal and magnificus
explain to me how you have information that no one else has mentioned.

the jury is in writes magnificus.
not according to anyone who had direct knowledge of her status, they all say she was covert. but please dont be confused by facts.

the woman who wrote the law cannot verify what plame was doing or not doing so how can she pass judgement.
if you have documentation that would show that toesing had information as to what plame was doing on a daily weekly monthly or yearly basis please share it with us.

you can't but all you and she have is supposition.
you simply don't KNOW, unless you have access to classified cia documents. does she, do you?

idahogal,

who told you she drove to langely every day. seriously what records do you have to prove that.

you guys really don't know anything about what plame was doing you have simply accepted the word of the biased conservative media.

as usual conservatives don't want to base decisions on facts, just their feelings and emotions.

sad that you would condone immorality at the best and treason at the worst.

JoJo
Another thing, most of my posts, except for the very early hours when Brian, Cynewulf, and I were funning around, have been posts speaking to the points of the different conversations going on thread. I have not been engaging in attacks of other people on this thread. I have disagreed with some things people have posted.

I fail to see how you are lumping me in with what you are talking about.

Now, up to this point I felt no anger or animosity towards you, but when I get accused of something I did not do, I start to get somewhat cranky about that.

JoJo
you write;

"that they hated seeing Libby take the rap for Cheney, etc"

should at least cause some doubt about the jury. It sounds to me like they already had a pre-conceived notion of what the "truth" was.


"that law is never about justice, it's about applying the legal standards to all situations"

So please explain Sandy Burglar... I am confused.




religiouslib
You still have not answered my question.

Fitzpatrick spent two years with a grand jury investigating this PlameDame game.

Why have Armitage and Rove who you alleged outed PlameDame not been charged with a crime?

Magnificus
Hmmmm..... A BrianJ. Interesting. There was a period from about mid-Dec to about the end of Jan when I was on hiatus. Perhaps he was writing then, because I don't remember that handle, and typically I'm aware when I see someone using any variant of the "Brian" name, as I don't like my writing to be confused with those of others.

And this is a perfect illustration of why.

Anyway, Magnificus, I appreciate the thought, but I've never taken anything you've written as being derogatory toward me.

ridiculouslib
The jury of public opinion. Anyone who watched the "proceedings" now knows this woman is like so many others trying to build a nest egg through lawsuit...

by the way...

"feelings and emotions" are the domain of the lib-left... be careful about claiming it is a conservative trait or the Huffpos and Kos-kiddies might start harrassing you with death threats etc.

BrianR
At least you got an apology. I haven't as yet and I never wrote any poem about JoJo. Whew! Then liberals wonder why we question their senses when we see accusations made over things that never occurred.

Pepp
Yeah, I've been waiting and watching.

BrianR

Even more recent than that, in fact like two weeks ago I saw him on a thread, left and got on one where you were posting
(that is when I thought I might have carried my disdain for him along and insulted you in error)
after reading several of your posts I had to flip back and check thats how I found the last initial switch (aside from the fact that your posts were of much better quality and, made quite a bit more sense).

Magnificus
Thank you, sir!

I must have missed him, and after what you wrote I'm glad I did.

Can you imagine if he and I were debating each other? The confusion?

JoJo
Sorry, I forgot to point out that what I was saying in that part was towards religious lib.
As far as Libby forgetting 9 different times. Remember that Libby "lied" about who told him about Valerie Plame. Just a few minutes ago, you yourself admitted that you had confused different people on this site about who called you names. I'm not calling you a liar, and believe that you were called some rude names. In this atmosphere there is a lot of information that is passed back and forth, that unless you have a chance to review notes of certain events, it can be difficult to remember who said what. Now, imagine that you are Lewis Libby, and with the amount of daily information and meetings that cross your path. Add that to the number of times you talk to reporters on a daily basis. Now, off the top of your head, tell me where was your original source of information about Valerie Plame's name being leaked to the public.
As far as Bush manipulating evidence or only using the evidence that supported his theory. There was a governmental investigation into that too. The intelligence analysts that were interviewed, said no they weren't harrassed into giving the President what he wanted and no, the evidence was not manipulated. If Bush the intelligence had shown Bush was wrong, why didn't the Congressional intelligence committes say anything or any of the prior Democratic Presidents (all ex-presidents have access to the same intelligence briefings as the current president. In fact the first President Bush still recieves daily intelligence briefings.)
I don't have transcripts of the speech, so I can't say for sure. But I remember President Bush claiming that Saddaam had ties with al Queda and other terrorist organizations, which was correct, I don't remember him saying anything about Saddaam having anything to do with 9/11. We do know that al queda members had been Iraq for medical attention. Saddaam also sent an envoy to meet with al queda representatives. He was also giving $25,000 to the families of Hamas suicide bombers. We also have mounds of governmental paperwork that hasn't been translated yet or released for public knowledge, that could still point to Saddaams relations with terroristic entities.

JoJo and religiouslib
It's been about an hour and I still don't see an apology from you.

religiouslib:

You still have not answered my question:

If Armitage, Rove outed PlameDame, why have they not been charged by Fitzpatrick?

Pepp
Starting to feel lonely?

Yikes!


norman
My advice would be to set youself some sort of limit, time maybe or the three strikes rule for the number of chances you give ridiculouslib to answer your question. You know, debate.

He is one of those "answer a question with a question" types who never answers a question.

Just thought I would let you know. You can deal with ridiculouslib in whatever way you see fit of course. I just don't like to see people get old and gray before their time while waiting for a real debate to break out with his/her kind.


norman
In your latest post, one can make the case for Libby having forgotten who said what, when, how.

Just on this thread today, BrianR and I have been accused of writing a poem that someone else on this thread wrote. Now, here is the gist.

Another poster named Manfredo writes a poem to JoJo.

But, JoJo remembers it as BrianR and Peppermint who wrote it.

When confronted by it JoJo recalls that BrianR did not write the poem, but still thinks Peppermint did although Peppermint did not.

So, this occurs in the here and now, today, no past weeks.

Libby then is supposed to recall who told him when, where, what from months, perhaps years ago.

Seems like people can make mistakes with memory if you go by a simple little transaction that happened right here on this thread.

Peppermint
If you ever expand your blog to include another section you might want to think about calling the new space

"Peppermints Patio" LOL

Magnificus: LOL
I had to think about that one for a while before I got it.

BrianR
Yeah, it looks like JoJo and religiouslib ran off.

I just got a little aggravated with JoJo. I go off for a couple of hours to walk my dog, I come back and find myself accused of something I didn't do.

Oh well. I guess I should consider the source.


Pepp
Yeah, I think JoJo has left the building.

It is aggravating to be accused of something you didn't do. I don't mind taking the heat for the stuff I've written, but that poem was, frankly, trashy, way beneath anything either of us would have written.

Heh heh heh
If I want to call someone a poophead, I can usually find a five-syllable way of doing it!

Magnificus
Peppermints Patio LOL :-)

Magnificus
Thanks for the advice, but this is all just for fun. Although my best friend is Liberal and will conceed to different points if my case is solid enough, just as I will when he makes solid points, I don't really expect to find many on the Left that are like my friend. I don't take any offense to it. The same can be said of many of the ideologues on the right too.
So far though JoJo seems to be one of the exceptional few who are truely interested in an honest debate.

By the way
Here is a great video for you all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

Norman
There are a few others, sanity102 coming immediately to mind.

Wait until you run into Phylo!

Yowzah!

Honesty is the best policy
Just ask this of anybody (Libs especially) when discussing Libby.

Ask them to answer honestly, then ask;

"When did YOU first hear Plame was a CIA agent/employee?"
AND
"Who did you hear it FROM?"


That was the crux of his "lie".
He answered "Tim Russert".

When Russert was questioned he said "Wasn't me"

Jury, already predisposed to getting someone from the White House as one juror put it so succinctly;

"We were wondering why this guy? Where was Cheney? He was the one who should've been on trial"

About Russert's testimony they said "We believed him over Libby because after all, he is a journalist,"



Norman
I just watched that video you linked. I got the impression it was a pro-Dem video, though it's kind of ambiguous.

I dislike
Phylo








Phylo out


religiouslib - you said:
who told you she drove to langely every day. seriously what records do you have to prove that.


From the transcript (which you really should read):

"While I helped to manage and run secret worldwide operations against this WMD target from CIA headquarters in Washington , I also traveled to foreign countries on secret missions to find vital intelligence."

This would suggest she was "going to the office."

"In February of 2002, a young junior officer who worked for me -- came to me very upset. She had just received a telephone call on her desk from someone -- I don't know who -- in the office of the vice- president asking about this report of this alleged sale of yellow cake uranium from Niger to Iraq . She came to me, and as she was telling me this -- what had just happened, someone passed by -- another officer heard this. He knew that Joe had already -- my husband -- had already gone on some CIA mission previously do deal with other nuclear matters. And he suggested, "Well why don't we send Joe?" He knew that Joe had many years of experience on the African continent. He also knew that he had served -- and served well and heroically in the Baghdad Embassy -- our embassy in Baghdad during the first Gulf War. And I will be honest. I had -- was somewhat ambivalent at the time. We had 2-year-old twins as home, and all I could envision was me by myself at bedtime with a couple of 2-year-olds. So I wasn't overjoyed with this idea. Never the less --...We went to my branch chief, or supervisor. My colleague suggested this idea, and my supervisor turned to me and said, "Well, when you go home this evening, would you be willing to speak to your husband, ask him to come into headquarters next week and we'll discuss the options? See if this -- what we could do" Of course. And as I was leaving, he asked me to draft a quick e-mail to the chief of our Counterproliferation Division, letting him know that this was -- might happen."

This would also suggest she "went to the office."

He drives me nutz
with that sign off......LOL

IdahoGal
ridiculouslib has run off...probably back to Huffpo to gather up some more "insult points"

JoJo - you asked...
Also, why are you throwing up Clinton? He was impeached, for God's sake. He hardly got away with it.

From religiouslib:

how does it feel to be in bed with bill clinton because you might as well be telling me what the definition of is---- is.

That's why I threw in Clinton. Wasn't addressed to you.

It was Pro-Obama
But what made it so much fun was how anti-Hillary it was

Magnificus
Yeah, ole Phylo's pretty sanctimonious.

I hate to talk about someone when they're not around to defend themselves, but...

Phylo out (of his mind)

Crap
I must not be doing enough. I found out that according to this survey http://www.blogthings.com/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/ I am only 95% conservative. I feel like such a loser.

IdahoGal

Did you take note of how at one point she was asked when was that phone call received and she was sure it was Feb.12th... the problem with that is that there is something from the Libby trial and Grand Jury testimony that says it was Feb 13th when the initial conversations within the administration about the yellow-cake intelligence took place.

I did a little better on this one though

Norman
Yeah, I got a 38 on Mad Rabbit.

I think I lost points because I don't see a problem with domestic partnerships.

Ah, well.

Magnificus
PlameDame messed herself up on that date.

For a second there,
I thought I had stumbled onto a column about Scooter Libby. Looks like someone played the ol' switcheroo.

Pep, how's
the dog?

Cyne
My dog is fine. He got a really good walk today and good exercise. So, he's happy with me today. Poor little pooch. He's my best buddy ever.

How do we?
How do we pay these libs back? I'm sick and tired of the libtard's attacks on honest people. Seems to me there's enough professional brainpower on this site to compose a fitting reponse to these morons. Any Ideas?

I have a soft spot for porn
I got a 39 because I don't believe that graphic porn should be banned. I believe in stricter limits, to prevent access to minors, but I don't think that it should be banned altogether.

apoplectic
We Conservatives are all caught up in a Catch-22. If we try to use normal discourse, then the Republicans start caving to the Liberals, and the Liberals assume that they are right. If we fight back, we are accused of being biggots, mean and ignorant and therefore the Liberals assume that they are right.

Bob Dole
I scored a 35
Where did mt parents go wrong?
Oh yeah. They were Massachusetts Democrats.

religiouslib logic
religiouslib writes:

"fitzgerald was after whoever it was that leaked to rove libby and armitage."

It should occur to any person looking at this issue logically that Rove, Libby, and Armitage, as second-in-commands to the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of State, would have security clearance levels that would authorize them to know about Plame's status, whether she was covert or not.

It should also occur to anyone looking at this logically that if, as Joe Wilson claims, his "mission" to Niger stemmed from a request from the Vice President's office, the VP and/or his Chief of Staff would have a vested interest in knowing all about the man that was being sent on this "mission", including who his wife was and what she did for a living.

Summarizing, it would not be considered a "leak" for Rove, Libby, or Armitage to know that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA. It only becomes a "leak" when that info is given to someone who is not authorized to have it. Further, it only becomes a violation of the law in question if Plame was covert for the purpose of the law.

The author of the law, contrary to lib contentions in this thread, DID check on Plame's status before testifying under oath that for the purposes of the law Plame was not covert (much to the chagrin of Democrat Congressman/blowhard Henry Waxman).

Further, regardless of who religiouslib claims Fitzgerald was after, if Plame was in fact covert under the law, then it was a 'crime' for Rove , Libby, and Armitage to have told Miller, Cooper, Russert, and/or Novak. Given that Fitzgerald did go after Libby for offenses that were secondary to the main theme of his investigation, it is not logical that he would have declined to indict Rove , Armitage, and Libby for disclosing Plames ID if in fact Plame qualified as "covert", regardless of who he was "after".

It's strange how no one in the entire country except religiouslib has managed to fathom Fitzgerald true intentions. Maybe that's because the intentions religiouslib assumes for Fitzgerald are entirely illogical and exist completely outside the realm of fact.

Magnificus
You are way to Liberal for this site. :)

norman
Obviously we cannot sink to their level, but the dimwits are frothing idiots. I'm thinking there may be a creative response without acting like the libtards. Just something to ponder.

Ali G inda house
This just in from MSNBC, Keith "Conspiracy" Olbermann

Al "As the World Turns" Gore invites all earthlings to visit his Tenn. mansion. This will be an all "inclusive" weekend retreat.

A "diverse" list of guests will include his new friend "Oscar" and the Mormon Tabernacle Boys Choir, led by Mitt Romney.

Invocation will be given by Sen. Hillary "I AM WOMAN" Clinton.

Vanity Fair will be present for any PLAME-WILSON photo-ops.

Entertainment will be provided by "Earth, Wind and Fire."

Games will be conducted by Sen John Kerry and Jane Fonda (Pin the Medal on the Hero!)

All uninvited guests arriving in SUVs will be handed subpoenas by Senators Leahy and Schumer.
(Appearence is mandatory and all eight of the fired US Attorneys will provide pro bono defense.)

For those wishing to make a small $5000 donation, a private showing of "An Inconvenient Truth. How a Swiftboat Sunk the Titanic" will be shown at 11:00pm

Cocktails will be provided by Sen. Ted Kennedy.

3am: Ground tours provided by Patrick Kennedy.

A drawing will be held for a Non Sponsored trip to Niger, Africa. (Bring your own yellow cake)


Benediction by Al "Tell Me No Lie" Sharpton.

PS: Leave the polar bears by the pool alone. The ice sculpture of Michael Moore is melting for their pleasure.

Liberals ALWAYS assume they're right.

Nothing anyone can do about it. Only time can fix them. They will either grow wiser with time, or die stupid.

It's like the elites thinking they're better than everyone else. The average Lib wants to be just like the elites (hero worship) or to just be liked by them.
When we point out their heroes foibles we become the enemy. Libs do not criticism well.

They think their owm educations are worth more than anyone elses, especially a 'backwards thinking' conservative.

Most are either too young to know how the world really works or are old enough to remember how the Democrat party used to be, and they fail to see how the party really is today (in large part thanks to the MSM).

The younger, more impressionable Libs cannot be reasoned with. For the most part they are spoiled and, have been taught by their parents, those of the Me First generation, that if they scream loud enough or hold their breath long enough they'll get what they want.

This is what drives their debate (argument) style. If they are losing a debate they tend to stop answering the questions and, turn to ad hominem attacks. Calling conservatives homophobes, chickenhawks, bigots, racists... are among their favorite slurs because there are far too many people that will back down at that point rather than risk having someone think they actually are what the Libs are unjustifiably calling them.

The best way to combat this tactic is to keep right on debating the issue, whatever it is. The Lib will eventually run away (just pray they don't have your phone number or address (remember that guy recently who was confronted in his own house after a Lib showed up at his door?).

Above all, don't give up your own belief system. Stick to your guns (no pun intended). It drives the nutty Libs nuttier than they already are.



wiseone
does the quote "there is still a cloud over the vice president" by fitzgerald at end of the libby trial give you any clues/

oh so you know for a fact toensig had clearance to "check" on plames status. please explain how you know that and who gave her clearance to"check" and why she didn't mention that in her testimony.

sheesh

you keep insisting i am the one who has got it wrong but again i ask, give me the name of one person who had DIRECT knowledge of plames status.

the immorality of the republican party is stunning at this point.

how does it feel to be in bed with the clintons.
it is a vast left wing conspiracy and never should have gone to trial.

replace left with right and you are quoting the clintons verbatim.

a jury of his peers finds libby guilty.
they were duped.

the federal prosecutor says plame is covert.
he was duped.

the cia director says she was covert.
he was duped.

i guess it depends on what the definition of is---is. lol


what a sad commentary on the patriotism of conser atives. they will believe unknown and indirect sources before admitting the truth.



apoplectic
The big problem with formulating a response to these Bozos is that they:

A) Do not accept the reality of fact.

B) When 'we' begin to make any sort of sense to them an alarm goes off (Danger Will Robinson! Danger!) and they either change the topic or start their incessant babbling about "Bush, Cheney, Halliburton, Rove, etc. (was it Joe Cocker that put out the album "You can't argue with a sick mind")

If only the Libs would see that is true they wouldn't argue with their sick minds. They would seek professional help and come back when they've been cured or medicated.


my belief system is truth and morality
magnificus.

yours is the republican line no matter the morality involved.

you are patronizing and insulting.

the main stream media has duped all us poor liberals and we are to stupid to know it.
only the true conservatives know the truth.

what hubris.

your belief system condone capital punishment.
your belief system condones torture.
your belief system condones pre-emptive war.
your belief system condones ney, cunningham, foley and all the presidential candidates who have been married and divorced multiple times.

conservatives like you are the leading purveyors of immorality in this country because your
God is the republican party.

i will stick with my belief system thank-you because it is religiously based not politically based like yours.

religiouslib
Don't pay any attention to minificus. Don't think for a minute he is a conservative, because he is not. The idea that he would claim to be is hilarious. He is however, very successful at driving people away from conservatism when they see his stances. Perhaps that is his goal.

ridiculouslib
You sir, know NOTHING about me! And I would appreciate you keeping your insane rantings to a minimum... It doesn't surprise me in the least that you consider yourself Gods gift to the rest of us. You prove the point of my prior postings with you're raving lunacy. You should be more charitable to those you know nothing about. Remember, your belief system is "religiously-based".

BUT I CAN SAY THIS IN ALL HONESTY....

Your Party's Belief System;

condones the murder of innocent unborn children.

condones genocide (in Iraq if we leave too soon and by their rules).

condones giving criminals (illegal aliens) preferential treatment even Americans don't get.

condones Ted Kennedy, Barney Frank, Gerry Studds, William Jefferson, etc. (at least Republicans force their bad seeds from office).

condones and idolizes all the presidents who have had extramarital sexual affairs in the oval office.

condones hypocrisy and you fit right in.

What religion condones all that stuff?
(my belief system...is religiously based)



LOL
Now they're coming out of the woodwork...

Hey Liberty...how is the Ron Paul candidacy working out? ROFLMAO

Ripped from the Headlines!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Oscar" is the real Golden Boy

Valerie and Joe will host a "Silent Auction"
(One-way adventure trip to Niger, Africa. Must bring own yellow cake)(Pre-order copy of book at this time)

Sen John Kerry and Jane Fonda sign game deal with Mattel. ("Pin the Medal on the Hero")

Polar bears sighted in Tennessee.

James Cameron has new movie. "How A Swiftboat Sunk the Titanic"

Cong. Jack Murtha will host "Deal or No Deal" on NBC next week.

US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and former Sen Fred Thompson swap jobs.

Sen Barack Obama heard during a karaoke session at Chicaco nightclub with his version of Three Dog Night song "Black and White"

POTUS elect Hillary Clinton will wear blue dress to inaugural.

Monica Lewinsky will perform "My Boyfriends Back" at inaugural.

Al "Global Warming" Gore has Earth, Wind and Fire sing "Winter Wonderland" at Oscar party.

MoveOn.org has moved on. Catch them on "The View"

Rosie O'Donnells hair stylist is Khalid.

Stayed tuned for your 10:00 newshour after these brief commercials.

religiouslib
Talk about misleading. You quote one little thing that Fitzgerald had said, but you don't say anything else.
Let me refresh your memory a little.
This is from Byron York who attended the trial

What became unmistakably clear, though, was Fitzgerald’s fundamental theory of the case. As much as the prosecutor talked about Libby’s alleged lies, it was obvious that Fitzgerald, on Tuesday as well as throughout the investigation, believed his chief target was — and perhaps still is — Dick Cheney.

“What was all the hullabaloo about?” Fitzgerald asked as he discussed the reaction in the vice president’s office to Wilson’s attacks, which had begun after the CIA sent him on a fact-finding trip to Niger. “The question of who sent Wilson was hugely important, and they wanted everybody to know it wasn’t the vice president.”

That was undoubtedly true; testimony at the trial established, and the prosecution conceded, that the vice president’s office did not, in fact, send Joseph Wilson to Africa.

Or this part
Among other things, Fitzgerald charged, with a gravity prosecutors reserve for discussing nefarious acts, Cheney had scribbled in the margins of Wilson’s Times op-ed. “He wrote those notes,” Fitzgerald told the jury. Couldn’t they see? Fitzgerald seemed to be saying. Couldn’t jurors see the criminality? Just look at the talking points. “There is a cloud over what the vice president did that week. We didn’t put that cloud there, and that cloud remains because the defendant has obstructed justice and lied about what happened,” Fitzgerald said. “The cloud is something that we just can’t pretend isn’t there.”

And the cloud wasn’t just any cloud, Fitzgerald argued. It was a killer cloud. As he built up to the climax of his presentation, Fitzgerald told the jury that exposing Valerie Plame Wilson’s role in Joseph Wilson’s trip to Africa could have gotten her killed. And defendant Libby — remember him? — knew it at the time.

Fitzgerald argued that Libby must have known that the subject of Mrs. Wilson’s role was important — and therefore it is unlikely that he forgot about it, as he contends — because he was “discussing something with people that could lead to people being killed.” “If someone is outed,” Fitzgerald said, “people can get in trouble overseas. They can get arrested, tortured, or killed.”
At that point, the defense objected, in part because Fitzgerald had just bulldozed over one of the main trial rules set down by Judge Reggie Walton. On the first day of the trial, Walton told the jury, “No evidence will be presented to you with regard to Valerie Plame Wilson’s status. That is because what her actual status was, or whether any damage would result from disclosure of her status, are totally irrelevant to your decision of guilt or innocence. You must not consider these matters in your deliberations or speculate or guess about them.”

If you want the full article it is here: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjZiMjQyY2RlMjM5YzY1ZTQ4M2JkZTMyZTVlMWYxYTM=

As you can see, Fitzgerald leveled the same charge that he was initially investigating at Libby and the Vice President. And although he knew that he couldn't charge them with it, he still implied to the jury that Libby and Cheney were guilty of that charge. Fitzgerald violated the judges own rules to take a cheap shot at the Vice President, and gave them the excuse to find Libby guilty.
If you couldn't tell that that charge weighed heavily on the jury, just listen to the things they said after the trial.

“There was a tremendous amount of sympathy for Mr. Libby on the jury,” said juror Denis Collins, the only one of the 11 jurors who chose to speak to the press after the verdict. “It was said a number of times, ‘What are we doing with this guy here? Where’s Rove? Where are these other guys?’ I’m not saying we didn’t think Mr. Libby was guilty of the things we found him guilty of. It seemed like he was, as [Libby attorney Ted] Wells put it, he was the fall guy.”

This trial ended up not being anything about whether Libby lied or not. They couldn't get anyone on the original charge, but that's what they were prosecuting for.

religiouslib
Re: "does the quote "there is still a cloud over the vice president" by fitzgerald at end of the libby trial give you any clues?"

Yes. It makes me think Fitzgerald is a frustrated political hack who tried to use this case to become somebody only to find he didn't even have the grounds to claim the original, alleged, underlying offense was a crime, because Plame wasn't covert.

Re: "oh so you know for a fact toensig had clearance to "check" on plames status. please explain how you know that and who gave her clearance to"check" and why she didn't mention that in her testimony."

In an op-ed that appeared on 2/17/07 in the Washington Post, Toensing wrote "The CIA is well aware of the requirements of the law protecting the identity of covert officers and agents. I know, because in 1982, as chief counsel to the Senate intelligence committee, I negotiated the terms of that legislation between the media and the intelligence community. Even if Plame's status were "classified"--Fitzgerald never introduced one piece of evidence to support such status -- no law would be violated.

"There is no better evidence that the CIA was only covering its rear by requesting a Justice Department criminal investigation than the fact that it sent a boiler-plate referral regarding a classified leak and not one addressing the elements of a covert officer's disclosure."

Re: "sheesh

you keep insisting i am the one who has got it wrong but again i ask, give me the name of one person who had DIRECT knowledge of plames status."

You"ve got it backwards again. Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty'"? (Probably not. It comes from the Constitution. A document abhorred by liberals.) The absence of such specific information constitutes "reasonable doubt". Especially since the prosecutor NEVER CHARGED ANYONE with outing Plame. But you and others like you go on stating that 'Libby leaked', 'Roved leaked', 'there was a conspiracy to get revenge against Wilson', all without evidence, or even an indictment, let alone proof, and then you ask

"how does it feel to be in bed with the clintons.
it is a vast left wing conspiracy and never should have gone to trial?"

You are the one claiming there was a conspiracy.

Re: "the immorality of the republican party is stunning at this point."

Why? Because unlike Clinton and the Democrats they cooperated with the investigation? How many times did you see Bush claiming executive privilege? How many times did you see the Bushies accuse Fitzgerald of being obsessed, the way the Clintons accused Starr of being a voyeur? How many Bushies claimed the 5th, demanded immunity, or refused to testify a la Susan McDougal?

Re: "replace left with right and you are quoting the clintons verbatim."

Oh really? Please tell me at what point in Whitewater/Monicagate that the Clintons claimed that the Whitewater fraud wasn't a crime? Please tell me at what point they said that sexual harassment in the workplace wasn't an actionable tort?

Please tell me how a finding that Bill Clinton was in contempt of court, the other 11 convictions in Whitewater for the actual crimes being investigated, and Clinton's out-of-court settlement with Paula Jones, all of which resulted from the Whiteater/Monicagate investigation, equates to a consolation prize (for the prosecutor) of nailing Libby for process crime and NO INDICTMENTS on the original alleged offense.

Re: "a jury of his peers finds libby guilty.
they were duped."

Libby lied in court. He was guilty (you never even heard Clinton actually say the words "I'm sorry").

Re: "the federal prosecutor says plame is covert.
he was duped."

Please cite for me when and where Fitzgerald ever actually issued such a statement for the record. After you've done that please explain why he never charged anyone with outing her.

Re: "the cia director says she was covert.
he was duped."

As Toensing asked Waxman while SHE was under oath, "Did he say Plame was covert under the statute? If not your point is meaningless.

Re: "i guess it depends on what the definition of is---is. lol"

No. For you libs it only depends on whether the accused is conservative or liberal.

For us conservatives it depends on whether the investigation is about an actual crime or just politics and ambition.


Re: "what a sad commentary on the patriotism of conser atives. they will believe unknown and indirect sources before admitting the truth."

What a sad commentary on liberals that they never let facts get in the way of one their hate-inspired kook whacko conspiracy theories.

If you have real evidence that the Bush White House conspired to ruin Plame/Wilson by outing Plame, show it. Remember, Bush instructed all his aides to cooperate, and Fitzgerald had TWO YEARS of subpoena power. If you really think there was this huge conspiracy and the only thing Fitzgerald could find of it was Libby lying to the FBI and a Grand Jury about what he told Russert you're the one whose patriotism is in sad shape. (Hint: even Libby's conviction is evidence only that Libby lied to protect himself. It doesn't indicate he was part of a conspiracy and even Fitzgerald never claimed such a conspiracy existed.)

norman
you quote me byron york a partisan with national review?

so you admit fitzgerald was after cheney and like he said he couldn't complete the investigation because libby lied.


wiseone
so you are backing away from your statement that toensig "checked" on plames status.
just as i thought.

rove admitted leaking o wise one. same with libby.

why did miller and cooper go to jail. because they refused to say who gave them plames name. then libby and rove let them testify that they were the guilty parties.

i have it backwards how illogical.

the cia director and a federal prosecutor say she was covert. i don't have to prove anything, those are facts. you have to prove they are lying.
lets see you do it.

yea bush instructed all his aides to come clean or be fired.

libby and rove told fleisher they had nothing to do with it. that was a lie. why werent they fired.

because republicans have lost their moral compass thats why.

as far as clinton i never voted for him and i deplore his morals also.

besides the entire country is tired of the "clinton excuse". some conservatives are like children "but mommy he did it too, but his is worse"

please take responsiblity for yourselves.

religious lib
Byron York was the source of the Fitzgerald quotes from the trial. This is why I edited it down as much as possible to just those quotes. But I also added a link so you wouldn't accuse me of only editing the stuff that made my point. If I had the transcript to the trial, I would've been more than happy to read you the same quotes from the transcript.

How is it that Fitzgerald couldn't complete an investigation on whether or not the covert operatives law had been broken due to Libby "lying" about whether he had heard about Plame from Russert or Cooper? Shouldn't he have been able to bring charges up against the administration officials for violating that law anyway?

magnificus
i guess i touched a nerve huh.

i don't believe in abortion.
as far as iraq, bush through incompetence and ignorance has turned this war into a nightmare.
if he had prosecuted the war correctly, we would not even be discussing it. we would be out of there by now.

as far as removing people from office, the only way they leave is under indictment.

i don't admire presidents who have extramarital affairs but of course we could go back to burton,hyde, livingston barr and now gingrich.

see what i mean-- you bluster about the horrible liberals and their lack of morals but conservatives aren't any better except that they claim to be.

hypocrisy thy name is republican

Manfredo Tancredo
I know everyone's gone now, but if you read back through the thread and pick out MF's posts, any true conservative should be able to discern the liberal in conservative's clothing, if only from the blatant stereotypical rant. Its TOO patent and obviously represents what a lib would hope to see here so they can legitamitely diss us on Kos or Huffpo. I wouldn't be entirely suprised to learn that jojo and manfredo tancredo aren't college roomies with laptops in Daytona as their only companions. No self-respecting conservative I have witnessed on any site was as vicious and shallow as MF's poetry rant. It was all an act so someone can quote it as coming from here with semi-honesty! It might be called sniping, if it weren't so much more akin too a drive - by with a full auto AK! Watch to see if it appears in some media outlet soon, as an example of "typical" small - minded conservative blogthought.

okay, i'm done
Religiouslib, while I enjoy debate, I have a hard time with people calling for evidence and when it's given to them, they refuse to believe it and claim that no evidence was given. So I'm going to go pop a few Excedrin. Have a wonderful night.

norman
all i know norman (and by the way thanks for keeping your posts civil) is that fitzgerald was not a partisan hack and has a reputation for by the book.

he had just finished convicting the former dem. governor of illinois before this case.
he had a stirling reputation and he is much more believable for no other reason than he spent 3 years investigating and saw all the classified materials.


i have no dog in this hunt i am just after the truth.
i really can't for the life of me understand how moral conservatives can disregard the statements of a federal prosecutor and a cia director.

neither one as i can tell has any motivation to lie.

but of course that is too logical for some on this board to grasp.(i didn't mean you)

I will agree with you on one point
I don't think Fitzgerald was a political hack either. Fitzgerald was a mafia prosecutor, and was well versed in getting a conviction through any means necessary.

I will give you, that Fitzgerald was just doing the same job that he has done for years. Find something to prosecute for. And he did.

I may not agree with his methods with regards to Lewis Libby, but he did what he was paid to do, to get the conviction.

I know it's not much, but that's all the ground I am willing to give on this one.

norman
ridiculouslib writes;

the cia director and a federal prosecutor say she was covert. i don't have to prove anything, those are facts. you have to prove they are lying.
lets see you do it.

Kiinda proves the point I was making about ridiculouslib earlier doesn't it?


ridiculouslib
you are a waste of my precious time. in fact, you are a waste, period.
Now take off the tinfoil hat and go join lib-t over at kos.


ridiculouslib
BTW

in your response (if one wants to stretch the meaning of response) to wiseone when you said;

"the cia director and a federal prosecutor say she was covert. i don't have to prove anything, those are facts. you have to prove they are lying.
lets see you do it."

you forgot > "Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah."

Woulda thought your Me-First-Lefty parents taught you better than to leave a snappy retort like that out.


magnificus
i see alot of words but no rebuttal.
you have lowered yourself to name calling because you have no answer.

if something is proven to be a fact by those with direct knowledge of the event, how can it be logical for someone to say you have to prove they are right.

that is like saying the police say a man was caught beating someone up, a witness says he saw it and then magnificus walks up and says no the police and the witness have it wrong and you still have to prove he beat someone up.

you are making no logical sense my friend.

if you don't take the federal prosecutors word and the cia directors word, then give me the name of the person who had more direct knowledge of plames statement than them.


and of course you cannot do it because truth is on the side of facts not conjecture.

religiouslib
You never did answer a simple question I put to you.

Now, I'll put it this way for you.

Armitage "admitted" he was the one who "outed" the PlameDame.

My question to you is now, why has he not been charged with a crime by Fitzgerald? He admitted to it.

magnificus
i really don't think anyone will support your strange post.

reasonable people can see you are making no sense.

i simply ask for a name of someone that proves fitzgerald and hayden are lying.

if i am wrong why can't you provide that name or that person.

pepermint
i answered it but you may not have seen it.

first don't ever forget that libby and rove admitted they leaked also.
armitage was the first but not the only.

the reason is simple. armitage had no ax to grind with wilson but cheney did.

fitzgerald was trying to determine if there had been an organized effort to out plame in retaliation for wilson.

armitage was not part of the inner circle of libby rove and cheney.

a question back at you, who told armitage, who told libby and rove.

religiouslib
What difference does it make if Armitage had no axe to grind with Wilson. If he outed PlameDame he should be prosecuted.

Your argument does not wash.

i think they may call fitzgerald to
testify about this. that should be interesting.

no my argument washes
because fitzgerald was after the person who knowingly released a name.
obviously armitage did not do so knowingly or he would have been charged.
once again though you dodge around the main point.

who told armitage.
who told libby and rove
why did fleisher ask for immunity
why did libby lie
why did both libby and rove deny at first that they had anything to do with this when it was not true.

i mean come on peppermint if you were a prosecutor wouldn't those be the questions you would want answered.

why the lying?
why the immunity?

i mean how would you go about answering those questions if you were fitzgerald.


pep
If we quit humoring ridiculouslib maybe he/she/it will go back to where it belongs... LOL

we are never going to get a coherrent answer or debate from a fool like this who "has all the facts" and all the "simple answers".

Simple is about the only thing that even gets close to this one. Thats why I won't answer ridiculouslib's BS questions.

At least not until I hear a real answer from it that doesn't start with... "a question back at you"

This one just will not accept the reality of fact.


hey ridiculous... question back at YOU
(2 can play this game)

"When did YOU first hear Plame was a CIA agent/employee?"
AND
"Who did you hear it FROM?"

ridiculouslib
the facts are so simple 1. Wilson gets sent to Niger after his wife
recommends him.
2. He finds out that an Iraqi official tries to
make a deal to do business with Niger but is
turned down beause of UN sancitons against
doing business with Iraq.
3. CIA concludes that in fact an attempt was
made for yellowcake purchase.
4. Wilson LIES when he says Cheney's office sent
him on the mission.
5. Wilson LIES when he says in his NYT piece
that there was no evidence that Iraq tried to
purchase yellowcake.
6. Novak hears from Armitage that Plame works for
CIA and recommended Wilsons trip.
7. The White House has a right to get the TRUTH
out when a person with a title and media
access is telling LIES about the
administration.
8. Liberals scream and the Bush-hating media
picks up the ball and runs with it.
9. White House knows they did nothing wrong so
goes along with having an investigation.
10.Armitage realizes what's going on and comes
forward to investigators.
11.All that needed to be established then was
whether Plame was covert-which we all know
now she was not OR ELSE ARMITAGE WOULD HAVE
BEEN INDICTED.
12.What took place after this was a bogus
witch hunt by a prosecutor mad with power.
13.He dragged-for no reason since he already
knew Novaks source-every high ranking Bush
official before a grand jury and grilled
them for hours, JUST WAITING FOR AN
INCONSISTENCY. And wasn't he so proud of
himself when he snagged one in his net.
14.Fitzgerald should be prosecuted for
misconduct.
15.If you libs had an ounce of intellectual
honesty instead of being so blinded by
your irrational Bush-hate you would see how
scary it is what happened to this man in the
United States judicial system

(someone elses work...but it was worth finding)


i don't hate bush
i think he is a good person just incompetent.

man you have alot of hate built up.

your facts are wrong as usual.

CIA concludes that in fact an attempt was
made for yellowcake purchase.
if that were true why did the cia have him pull the remarks before he made them in cincinatti.


1.All that needed to be established then was
whether Plame was covert-which we all know
now she was not OR ELSE ARMITAGE WOULD HAVE
BEEN INDICTED.

you persist in the lie that plame was not covert even though you cannot produce one person with direct knowledge of plames status that contradicts it.

if you are right than why don't fitzgerald, hayden and plame be brought up on perjury charges because they all say you are the liar.

2.What took place after this was a bogus
witch hunt by a prosecutor mad with power.

again the clinton defense?


;you are the one who is blinded magnificus.

everybody is a liar but the bushies. lol


why did libby lie.
why did fleisher ask for immunity
why did rove and libby lie to fleisher.
who told armitage
who told libby and rove.

you have no facts just conjecture and outright lies.

magnificus
if you read the transcript of fitzgerald the day he announced libbys indictment the answers to your questions are right there.


Huh?
First came this:
"Shortly after the story made headlines, popular liberal blogs Daily Kos and Huffington Post, laid out their plan of attack. A blogger called NeuvoLiberal wrote on Daily Kos, "please post any specific (action oriented) ideas you have for fighting back…. We'd like to target every person out there that is spinning in various rightwing and other outlet for this kind of smear job (the damage is done before you wake and smell the coffee)."

then came this:
"He has also hired an investigative reporter to produce more stories similar to the one about Gore -- an unorthodox tactic for a think tank. But Johnson said sometimes that’s what it takes to discover the truth, no matter how inconvenient it may be for him personally."

I am not sure this story debunked the hack that he is.

Kimberly
Wow, there have been no Kimberly sightings for a few days now. I sincerely hope she's somewhere in the tropics, on vacation, getting a lot of pleasure and losing some of the hatred. I guess we'll find out someday.

Magnificus
Following thread regarding Libby. Am a retired Investigator. A rule I learned long ago was when the person you are talking to uses the term "Prove it", "Proof'you have hit a nerve and that person knows they have been nailed.

religiouslib demanded you "prove" something early in the thread. They know you are right but are conditioned to repeat their lie over and over.

Remember that Lib believes anything they think of as true because they thought it. That also applies to anything they hear other Lib.'s say

Ken

kcken
actually if you had read the entire thread you would see magnificus was the one that asked for proof.when i said that the federal prosecutor and the director of the cia said she was covert that made it a fact.

he denied it and said it wasn't so, i then asked for one name of someone who had DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of plames status who contradicted the the cia director.

so everything you said about me actually applies to magnificus. lol
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.