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Friday, May 16, 2008
Rich Tucker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Global Warming: Playing It Cool
by Rich Tucker
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Sorry, but is this a bad time to discuss global warming?

Here in the mid-Atlantic, the month of May has been a washout. Record rainfall has made last year’s drought seem like a distant memory. And the temperature just can’t seem to warm up. It feels more like March than May.

But maybe one month isn’t a fair sample. “When you look at climate change, you should not look at any particular year,” cautions Michel Jarraud, the World Meteorological Organization’s secretary-general and a global-warming proponent.

Well, then. Is 10 years long enough? As BBC news put it last month, “temperatures have not risen globally since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world.”

Oh, but Jarraud has an answer to that, too. “La Nina is part of what we call ‘variability.’ There has always been and there will always be cooler and warmer years,” he explained, “but what is important for climate change is that the trend is up; the climate on average is warming, even if there is a temporary cooling because of La Nina.”

Well, few people are meteorologists. But almost anybody can identify the key word in Jarraud’s explanation: “variability.” The weather in New York is different from the weather in L.A., which is different from the weather in Chicago. And tomorrow, the weather will be different in all three places. Weather “varies.”

But scientists aren’t celebrating our decade of cooling. Since the planet hasn’t been getting any hotter, they now talk about how the problem is “global climate change.” But that shouldn’t be a concern. The climate is always changing, and there’s simply no way for humans to alter that.

Oh, but we’re going to try.

Next month, lawmakers in Washington (which might have warmed up to summer temperatures by then) will take up a bill called “America’s Climate Security Act.” It aims to control global warming by reducing the amount of carbon dioxide (you’re exhaling some right now) our country emits.

The bill’s complicated, of course. But it would do what government does best: Attempt to address a problem by creating a bureaucracy to manage it. That approach has failed completely with, say, education policy. But maybe it’ll work to cool the planet.

Tellingly, the proposed climate change bill relies heavily on a technology known as “carbon capture and sequestration,” where carbon from fossil fuels is, instead of being released into the air, collected and buried. But the technology to do this doesn’t exist yet, and may never exist.

Ironically, the entire bill is unnecessary.

Americans are increasingly interested in protecting the environment. We don’t want to lose our jobs to do so (one study predicts that this bill would cost hundreds of thousands of jobs, especially manufacturing jobs). But everyone wants to live in a clean world.

If CO2 is a problem, American inventers will solve it. The market’s demand for a cleaner planet will force us to find ways to remove CO2. Meanwhile, we’ll move past the internal combustion engine and find a fuel that burns cleaner.

It’s worth noting that our country could reduce its energy use right away -- but the government stands in the way.

In the May edition of The Atlantic, Lisa Margonelli noted that “A 2005 report by the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory found that U.S. industry could profitably recycle enough waste energy -- including steam, furnace gases, heat, and pressure -- to reduce the country’s fossil-fuel use (and greenhouse-gas emissions) by nearly a fifth.”

Why don’t we? Overregulation is a big reason. “The Clean Air Act has succeeded spectacularly in reducing some forms of air pollution,” Margonelli writes, “but perversely, it has chilled efforts to reuse energy: because many of these efforts involve tinkering with industrial exhaust systems, they can trigger a federal or local review of the plant, opening a can of worms some plant managers would rather keep closed.”

Of course, the scope of the Clean Air Act pales in comparison to that of the Climate Security Act. Imagine the government attempting to manage the output from every manufacturing and power plant, under the guise of reducing global warming. It’s a disaster in the making.

Around 1900, many forward thinkers worried about the future. How, they wondered, would the United States deal with all the horses its urbanizing culture would require in the 20th century? They couldn’t foresee that the automobile would completely replace the horse and solve that problem.

Today, in a country with more cars than drivers, we can’t imagine an economy that doesn’t depend on oil. But we’ll develop one.

Washington should encourage that, perhaps by setting up some sort of prize for the person who invents an effective hydrogen engine. But mostly by staying out of the way and letting the market work.

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Rich Tucker is an editor in Washington D.C. and a columnist for Townhall.com.

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Typically Ignorant Cherry picking

The minute Tucker said "one month isn't enough", I knew I'd see 1998 soon. I debunk the 10-year-cooling nonsense here:

http://scienceavenger.blogspot.com/2008/04/kevin-mccullough -on-global-warming.html

You guys need to get new material.

Global cooling is a fact
NASA just announced last week that the earth is now entering a multi-decadal cooling phase, similar to the last one that operated from the 1940s to the mid-1970s. The 2007-2008 year (winter to winter) had the largest temperature decrease ever recorded, and wiped out most of the warming that took place in the last 100 years. In general, the earth's climate since the beginning of the pleistocene has been dominated by ice ages .. we are in a temporary warm phase in between ice ages, and the next ice age is inevitable.

In the meantime, we only use hydrocarbon fuels because they're cheap and easily available and provide the most energy per unit of fuel weight of any fuel that is used for transportation purposes. As oil gets more expensive, other sources (principally hydrogen) will become more attractive as a substitute.

We already have technically feasible hydrogen fuel cells - indeed, Honda is about to start marketing its fuel cell car by next year.

The problem with hydrogen is that it is not a fuel source, but rather, hydrogen is an energy carrier. You still have to generate the original energy content using electrostatic or biologic process, or by generating electricity from other sources to be stored as energy in hydrogen.

The most promising means of generating electricity for hydrogen fuel production is through alternative energy sources - such as wind energy, photovoltaic solar, and the exciting Brussard Fusion Reactor technology - which has the potential to make hydrocarbon fuels obsolete.

It's all about money, investment, and the profit motive, as well as supply and demand.

We don't need to worry about AGW - we DO need to worry about sending our dollars to terror-supporting OPEC regimes.

science avenger clown guy
Looking at all the data, going back thousands of years, debunks your entire agenda and your nonfunctioning "models". Any SCIENTIFIC approach inevitable shows that CO2 is only a minor player in the vast climate swings the earth has experienced.
And BTW, what is the "right" temperature for the earth?

All well and good
and certainly a testament to American ingenuity if we can get away from using petroleum as a primary fuel to move our economy. It will take time, and because of the nature of progress, such things as hydrogen cells won't be mass-produced for quite some time.

But until we get to that point, wouldn't it make sense to develop our own resources so we're not hamstrung at a critical moment? Who really believes that China is sitting over on the other side of the Pacific playing mumblety-peg?

Boy, it looks like science avenger's...
blog link features some guy named Kevin who's an expert on everything: global warming, abortion, genetic engineering; religion even.

I'll sleep so much better tonight knowing that Kevin is solving all the world's problems. What a guy!!!!! Thanks so much Kevin. We'd all be living in caves and scrounging around for acorns to eat if it weren't for really smart people like you.

GW koolaid anyone?
More and more people are drinking the koolaid on this one. I watch and listen to the arguments supporting "global warming" and I am still unconvinced this so called warming is anything but natural climate cycles we would experience even if the internal combustion engine and every other natural resource fuel burning mechanism never existed. Greenhouse gases would exist anyway. Can you imagine the test levels during the time of often and fully active volcano eruptions? What about the "great American dust bowl" during the era of the great depression? What caused that?

"Global warming" is just the next big thing for political rhetoric and economic stiflization (is that a word?) Look at California, probably the most liberal democratic state in the union. Liberal policies are really working well for them right? Last I heard, they had one foot on a banana peel and the other foot in the biggest budget deficit of all time. It's working well for them!

I'm starting to wonder if congress wants to inflict national self punishment for how terrible Americans are. We seem to be the global 9-1-1 call center for every natural disaster and national disturbance for every little two-bit wicked dictatorship. SHAME ON US! I still believe turning Iraq into rubble when we started this war would've been globally the better bitter pill. Mainly because all the countries with perpetual bitter strife and American hatred would hopefully take notice.

My last perspective on this deals with the war being conducted on us right now. We are contributing to the energy and financial war we are now subject to by accepting "global warming" as purely man made. The countries controlling energy output and natural resources are killing our dollar. It's almost as if they have a undeclared war on us and we are their best ally.

Climate change alarmist
pseudo-science is a cult. It has nothing to do with science. The alarmists have a preconceived agenda, and all of their 'research' and 'data' are fudged to 'prove' the agenda. Completely opposite of The Scientific Method.
Fear is the weapon of the alarmists. Ad hominum character assasination, fraudulent claims, discertification and defunding of 'denialists', and emotion driven media campaigns are their tools.
The goal of the alarmists is to gain absolute control of global energy production, for social engineering purposes.

There are legitimate scientists, who do legitimate climatic research, trying to understand how the Earth's climate cycles work; but they are being hamstrung by the alarmist cultists.

Science Avenger
The United States will enter a Moderate time in weather.

May 15 2018:
At exactly 0001 hours the temperature all over the United States will read exactly 65.8 degrees Faranheit and at daylight the temperature will read 75.2 until sundown.

This moderation of weather will last exactly 76 months and 12 days.

I expect to win the Nobel Peace prize and my own movie "A Moderate Truth".

You will begin to see scientists from all over the world agreeing with this forecast.

Debunk this Science Avenger.

Talk about cherry picking...
If you knew even a modicum about the subject, you would see that the artificial point, as Kevin talks about in his article, chosen to promote the warming trend, was in the depths of the little ice age of the nineteeth century.
And if you would use your head, you would realize that using the last ten years of cooling debunks the alarmist AGW models that purport to show a steadily upward trend.
Where they once cried wold, they are now trying to say that just because there was no wolf this time, doesn't mean there won't be one in the offing.

The whole deal is for socialists
to get the reins on world energy so they can tell you when you can buy gas or drive to work or take a plane to Disnesy World, not for another ten years.
It's for your own good, or your health, or for world peace, or whatever is the lefty mantra of the moment.
The 20th C.'s warmest decades were the 20s and 30s, a la the dust bowl and the crop failure that were major contributors to the Great Depression.
The years between the 40s and 60s were so cool that a new ice was predicted all throughout the 1970s. The climate is likely never STABLE, because the earth is alive and changing all the time.
If we are warmer, it would fit the sun's rsdiation cycle of 1500-3000, approx. because we don't really know, as ALL THE PLANETS IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM ARE WARMING. If the earth is slightly warmer than say, 1500, then so is Pluto.

Armigerous,
That contributed to the conversation how?

In actuality, the sun plays a far bigger role in our climate changing that a trace gas like CO2. My favorite quote of the week came from the Daily Telegraph in Australia. David Archibald, a climate scientist who hasn't bought into the AGW nonsense, said, "The more carbon dioxide you put into the atmosphere, the more you are helping all plants on the planet to grow, and of course that makes you a better person. Virtue is in direct proportion to your carbon dioxide output."

That just about sums it up. If you'd like to see the rest of what Archibald wrote, you can find it at http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php /dailytelegraph/comments/archibald_prize/

independant thinker
Should we go with the roman or medieval warming then, then when grapes were grown in Britain and Newfoundland and the Beech tree was dominant in southern Ontario (hint - it's too cold there for them now). How about during the 18th century when there were skating parties on the Thames?

The cyclical nature of solar events (partly in response to the center of gravity of our solar system changing) is just one of the drivers of our climate. The cherry-picked graph on "science avenger"'s website shows what bad math and cherry picking can do.

When Nasa, the ARGO array, and non-urban temperature records disagree with the models, that likely means that the models are wrong.

And I thought I was alone
After reading the posts here I realize that I am not the only one that sees mega holes in this GW theory (aka GW agenda). Unfortunately too many people buy into the current fad du jour - be it food, exercise, diet, medication, climate or whatever. They assume that the "experts" are looking out for them and know what's best. Since an "expert" is merely someone with a degree and an opinion (a thousand experts, a thousand opinions), I prefer to do my own research. My major in college was Geology, so I feel I have a pretty decent head start on this issue. However, most are basking in their ignorance and have no intention of chancing the possibility that they might be following the wrong star. Largely because of these type people (can't blame the experts for laziness and lack of inquisitiveness on the part of the general population), we might live to see the consequences of the junk science that is global warming. Since no one is putting the breaks on this delirium and our political figures and governments everywhere seem to be signing onto this pile of garbage post haste assuming it will help them win elections, society as we've known it could well cease to exist. God help us all if these ego driven, money grubbing elitists have their way. Another "dark ages" will be upon us.

oh, how funny....
John McCain wasn't mentioned once in this article (didn't he just wrap up his global warming tour yesterday?).

All you people who think that global warming is a giant hoax will be forced to go underground by next year, forced into the closet (you are the new homosexuals). Both presidential nominees are strong advocates for anti-GW legislation. John McCain is now billing himself as the "green conservative", an outright evironmentalist who unequivically opposes oil drilling in Alaska's Artic National Wildlife Refuge.

Like gays, you guys can kick that closet door down & come out! You're LOUD & you're PROUD!

Watermelon
The proper term here is watermelon.

Green on the outside.....Red on the inside.

whoops
Sorry IT, I skimmed your letter the first time and missed a few terms. We're looking at it the same way.

I do wonder which of the above maxima/minima the AGW folks would prefer to use?

PS - a plug for http://www.surfacestations.org They've collected pictures of 534 of the 1200 or so long term US weather stations. And found that over 70% of those sampled are close enough to buildings or pavement to have had an increase of over 2 degrees F because of the change in their surroundings over time.

They need help photographing the rest: any takers?

More crooks promoting the scam
Science Avenger should change is handle to "Brainless".

Why is it that the solution is always a tax increase or an influence peddling scam?

Vic
Because politicians can speak only their language. Because you rich people need to pay your fair share. Because evil corporations need to be punished. Because Mother Earth would be better off with a lot less humans. How's that for an answer? end sarcasm

CalPERS as an example
Even liberal fruits and nuts in California know better than to let politicians directly manage things that are really important. California law puts government employee’s retirements out of the reach of politicians.

The green/liberal nuts are driving us to depend increasingly on Middle Eastern and foreign oil.

YES – drill in Alaska
YES – drill off the coast of Florida and California
YES – build more refineries and pipelines
YES – build more coal and nuclear power plants
YES – build wind farms near Ted Kennedy’s summer estate
YES – encourage the development and deployment of plug-in electric cars
YES – invest in alternative energy

If it were not for the green/liberal nuts, politicians, and bureaucrats wanting to tinker with things beyond their abilities, we could have solved these problems back in the mid-seventies.

We need to tap domestic oil when prices are high. We could be using oil lease fees for research and investment. Set up a mostly-autonomous venture capital investment fund to leverage the capitalist system to find long-term real solutions to our energy problems. Many state governments already do this with their pension funds. For the most part, political zealots and liberal nuts are bared from tinkering with these investment funds because the purpose is too important – the retirement of government employees.

National energy security and economic stability must be less important that bureaucrat’s golden years! We knew enough to take the retirement of government employees out of the hands of politicians… it is time to do the same for national energy supplies and policy.

The mandate for the mostly-autonomous investment fund should be (in rank order):
-Make a profit
-National energy security
-Resiliency / diversity of energy sources to provide fail-over

On the list of things to ignore:
-Social feel-good crap
-Environmental feel-good crap

sheldon
Thanks for bringing up the whole "plants use CO2" issue. This is something that never seems to get mentioned by the talking heads.

Will
Thanks for the new titles. Will I suddenly be imbued with good taste in interior design? My wife says that I have pretty decent taste but no vision. BTW, when is the Global Warming Deniers Pride Parade? "We're close by, we deny, so deal with it!" What kinds of costumes and floats would one see at that parade? Thanks for giving the gay viewpoint on a topic that really needs no sexual orientation. It was kinda funny, though, which is, I believe, the direction that you were headed in. cheers

Please read the entire BBC article
Please, for the love of real science, Cons need to read real science and articles and not just the pundit's. This is the warmest decade. The trend is up. If a sine curve is tilted upwards, you get variability with an upward trend, but with slowdowns. This is what we can see right now.

Cons would crack me up with their intense dislike of anything intellectual if it would not interfere with real decisions.

inthestupidity
which category of warmie are you?

Crook or fool?

Well, if it got any warmer here
we'd never have summer.

We've had a real winter in our valley for the first time in years; there was snow on the ground before Christmas instead of the usual January. For once, it snowed in measurable inches, and it stayed. We're also having a genuine, if late, Spring. Runoff is already high and will go higher; plans and people are already in place to deal with it. Earlier this week we got rain-some parts of the mountains were warned to expect up to 14" of snow-and all of them received record snowfall this past winter. Temps are milder than usual for this time of year; we just passed the danger zone for the fruit growers and usually that occurs in mid-April.

Warmer? Where?

And who determines what the ideal climate should be, anyway?

athing
Where did you get your info that NASA announced the global cooling was a fact? My search of yesterday's announcement found the exact opposite, that NASA found a stronger correlation between human activities and global warming. See this link.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/05/nasa-satellite .html

Alive - The only meaningful trend would be to show the growth in a glacier somewhere. All of the temperature growth trends shown in An Inconvenient Truth show jagged lines. Short-term cooling periods don't disprove anything climate scientists are saying.

The ideal climate (sea level) is that which works with the trillions of dollars of infrastructure that's been built around the globe. Rising sea levels will create major, expensive problems.

Sequestration
An interesting idea passed my desk this week.

Seems that if we pipe gaseous CO2 down about half a mile below the ocean floor, the combination of cold temperature and great pressure will liquefy the gas. We plug the hole, and the CO2 would then stay stable and out of the atmosphere.

Any ideas on this?

Rising Sea Levels
Has anyone heard this one on how to solve rising sea levels?

Apparently, if we pump ocean water high enough onto the Antarctic ice cap, some of it freezes and adds to the ice cap. The proposal is to use windmills to power the pumps. It is very windy down there, apparently.

energyguy
I've heard of the idea, too. It's been around for a couple of years, although I don't know what progress has been made towards making it work.

energyguy...Another Idea...

How about Soylent Green? We could have the liberals try it out first, and then report back to us later :)

to athingortwo
You state: "NASA just announced last week that the earth is now entering a multi-decadal cooling phase, similar to the last one that operated from the 1940s to the mid-1970s." However, I cannot find an official NASA statement that we are in a multi-decadal cooling low. Perhaps you are referring to the statement of John Casey of Space and Science Research Center which received some press. From what I gather Casey's is a director of a one man research center. According to what I have read NASA only states that we are currently at a solar minimum. They make no dire prediction of a decade cooling trend. This is the prediction of John Casey who is not a representative of NASA as far as I can determine. By the way there is no cooling trend in the years since 1998 when one considers the average temperature for the decade before 1998 versus the decade after 1998. The average temperatures in the years 1999, 2000 to 2007 where higher than the years 1989 to 1997. 1998 was a two decade high. But there is no cooling trends. Record highs tend to occur once every several decades in a cooling or warming trend. With regard to the winter of 2008 there were many anomalies. Norther Europe has the warmest winter on record . Eurasia had record snow by warm weather in April caused the snow to melt and reduce it to a record low levels. March 2008 had the warmest global land temperatures on record while April was cooler. April on the other hand was relatively cool. See the NOAA site for details.

I look forward to your info from NASA that confirms your statement. One must challenge almost everything written on blogs these days. I am interested in facts not fiction or wishful thinking facts that support an agenda.

the best way to enslave an entire nation
is to convince people to give up their liberty of their own volition. Al Gore and all the greenies are playing this dangerous game and people all across America are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

Now we hear them talking "climate change" rather than "global warming". Well since climates have been changing since the beginning of time, how can they be wrong?

Carbon credits and "cap and trade" agreements are nothing more than a new way to make money at the expense of the consumer of energy of all kinds. You can go to the following link and click on The Inhofe EPW Press blog or just google EPA Cap and Trade study for more info.

http://epw.senate.gov

Doomsdayers have been around always and used to be dismissed as the crackpots that they were. This new bunch, however, have it down to a science (forgive the pun) because they not only want your freedom, they are gonna get it along with all your money and they don't even have to fire a shot.

Whether you believe the earth is millions of years old or just a few thousand, doesn't it make you wonder how it has survived for so long without Al Gore and all his minions?

Now I have nothing against good stewardship and sensible, commonsense approaches to taking care of and respecting the environment. The radical nonsense we hear today is not being spread by people who are themselves conserving or preserving anything except their own fortunes and bigger ones in the future, nor is there anywhere near a consensus in the scientific community that humans have caused climatic changes.

Nature always has and still does adapt to environmental changes. Places that are covered in ice today, were once green and growing things and places that are green and growing things today were once covered in ice. All these things happened long before Al Gore decided to turn CO2 into a commodity that could be traded and sold and turned into gold in his pocket!

Farmer's Wife
Yeah, the hypocrisy of The Church of Climatology high priesthood makes the real motives of this quasi-religious 'green crusade' very obvious.

Did you catch the cartoon showing Algore addressing the senate from his coal burning jet throne? LOL

Climate Change Deception
...Why do the Global Warming Alarmists now always use the term "climate change" instead of "global warming"? The current frenzy is actually about only ONE debate - "CO2 causes global warming". ANY global cooling is totally irrelevant to "climate change" since there is not any hypothetical scientific "consensus" to justify any human connection to nor resolution of cooling. So; the term "climate change" is a meaningless expression as relates to current political/religious hysteria over anthropogenic global warming.

deerhunter... no I
missed that! Thank the Lord!

Johnnyp
"If it were not for the green/liberal nuts, politicians, and bureaucrats wanting to tinker with things beyond their abilities, we could have solved these problems back in the mid-seventies."

Don't blame this on the green/liberal "nuts."
It wasn't making a big enough profit for anyone,
they couldn't get enough government subsidies
to carry on, so it was dropped. I guess risking
their own money was not a consideration.

Sounds very "conservative" to me.

P.S. Really and truly, do grow up. You are not
impressing anyone with your bully talk.

Seems every time...
the GWarmies have a big shindig God makes it really cold there...It would be great to be God for one day and put about a 100 thick ice sheet over Albore's plantation...

AGW people are stupid...
idiots. Thats about all I can say because they have no reason, logic or common sense to listen much less analyze facts. I am in the process of putting up a company to milk each and every one of you stupid morons out of every last penny you have and will be laughing all the way to the bank just like your pope and the masters you think you vote into office every election...

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!! Do as I say - not as I do you stupid fools!

numbers please
The last paragraph of the article:
"Washington should encourage that, perhaps by setting up some sort of prize for the person who invents an effective hydrogen engine.

Quite ironic, because these cars have already been invented, well, electric equivalents. They aren't that cheap, but on the other hand they aren't that expensive either. Considering that no major auto manufacturer is producing electric cars, and that they are being built be small startup companies, it can be expected that their price will drop substantially once mass production starts.

http://www.teslamotors.com
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.php
http://www.think.no

The major auto manufacturers have deliberately killed their electric car programs because they know the impact on oil profits if electric cars were to catch on in the market place. And those with financial interests in the auto industry also have financial interest in the oil industry...

And then,
"But mostly by staying out of the way and letting the market work." This is an even more ridiculous statement, because the market is not free. You Cons are so blindly devoted to your capitalist religion you can't accept that, along with big governments who get greedy and corrupt, the same also applies to big corporations who get too big and greedy and corrupt. Corporations are controlling the market, and Chevron / Texaco holds the patent on the Nickel Metal Hydride battery for the electric car. It's nice how they have used this patent to bring electric cars to the world...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2= HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G &l=50&s1=6969567.PN.&OS=PN/6969567&RS=PN/6969567

temps have not been cooling
As usual, the Conservative garbage being spewed on this website references no graphs or charts, yet has the gall to criticize the science of global warming researchers. If you want to look at a real graph of global temperature history, look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Instrumental_Temperature _Record.png

You will see no significant drop in temperature in the last 10 years. Rather, 1998 was an extremely warm year, and in comparison everything looks cooler. If you took out 1998, there would still be a strong warming trend, which there is even if you keep 1998 in.

WFalicoff summed it up well.

Once again, I have to repeat my request that has remained unanswered for months on this site: SHOW ME A GRAPH WHICH DISPELLS THE CONCERNS OVER GLOBAL WARMING. They go on and on at this site about this science that supposedly discredits AGW theory, yet NO ONE CAN PROVIDE A SHRED OF THIS EVIDENCE. IT DOES NOT EXIST.

hydrogen cars
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are a bit of a dead end, mostly being used by oil / auto corporations as decoys to prevent you from focussing on the real future of transportation, that being electric cars. The problem with fuel cell cars is that they are very complicated, and they cost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. The auto / oil companies do everything to make you aware of this. But electric cars are just as good, and if mass produced, would be just as cheap as any regular car. This is what they don't want you to know, but things will quickly change, the cat will be out of the bag and it will be unstoppable. The oil age is soon to be on its way to being over.

Hydrogen does have usefulness as fuel in internal combustion engines though. The hydrogen could be produced from gasifiers, which are big incinerator-type things that don't actually burn fuel. They just heat it up in the absence of air and the solids turn to carbon monoxide and hydrogen, both of which can be burned for energy. This is how the future of solid waste disposal will go == no more landfills, it will all go to the gasifier. So in all these respects, the future does hold promise, assumign the oil corporations don't find new ways to drive wedges to stifle the progression of new technologies.

mudmucker:
You seem to think that the auto companies are refusing to sell (and make a profit from) a new product because that would impact the profits of completely seperate companies in a completely different industry... You must get lots of job offers when people hear your creative management theories!

And on your next comment: You can't show me proof that unicorns don't exits. But no sane person denies that global warming and global cooling exits. And have since the planet was formed. And will until the planet's temperature reaches absolute zero. So thats a silly question.

There is, however, no evidence whatsoever that humans have anything at all to do with it. And it certainly has nothing to do with human generated carbon dioxide. Look at the actual science, not the opinion pieces.

Science Avenger
Use your data and run a correlation study between atmospheric CO2 concentration and temperature.

Then do the same for segments of the data.

AGW is a scam and the truth is in your own data set.

Warming is good
My corn is yellow ,my tomatoes wont grow, our ground temperature is akin to mid april

If the GW's can reverse the warming ,,it will be catastrophic. The growing of edible crops depend on heat units. Inthemajority,thats why you cannot grow crops in the winter ,when temps are below 50 degrees.



Here is a chart Mudmucker, for Indiana growing degree days for the last month,and you can go for decades if you like,
http://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/State_Crop_Progress_ and_Condition/current/current_in.rtf

,,Mudmucker , if you want charts,all you need to do is look,,,,or take off the blinders.

This is why cool weather is bad ,and warm is good,,,food grows ,we use less carbon to warm ourselves,and basically, humans live easier in a warm climate.


In short .

Winter (cold) bad ,,,summer (warm) good.







Soft data on global warming
Don't you love the way the true believers are now talking about 1998 as the warm year? Up until about a year ago, they were always saying that the most recent year was the warmest year on record. Then a critic pointed out that that wasn't being calculated right and when the calculations were done right, lo and behold it was 1998 that was the warm year (and 1934 as well).

Now these same people, having lied to us once, expect us to continue to believe them. WFalicoff even wants to talk about the anomalies in the data of us skeptics, but never talks about the anomalies in the global warming data.

There are just too many problems with the data that is being given to us. It's been manipulated and twisted in all sorts of ways. I don't trust any of it.

I expect that twenty or thirty years from now, they'll be teaching about this era as a warning on how not to do science.

Pigskinner...
I'm with you all the way here...put me in for warmer rather than colder...I yearn for global warming, or what we could call "Positive Climate Change"....

Low on Oil?
A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil shortage here in our country.
~~~
Well, there's a very simple answer.
~~~
Nobody bothered to check the oil.
~~~
We just didn't know we were getting low.
~~~
The reason for that is purely geographical.
~~~
Our OIL is located in:
~~~
ALASKA
~~~
California
~~~
Coastal Florida
~~~
Coastal Louisiana
~~~
Kansas
~~~
Oklahoma
~~~
Pennsylvania
and
Texas
~~~
Our
DIPSTICKS
are located in
Washington , DC !!!

Any Questions ???
NO?

I didn't Think So.




MuckRucker -pull your head out man...
You say....Once again, I have to repeat my request that has remained unanswered for months on this site: SHOW ME A GRAPH WHICH DISPELLS THE CONCERNS OVER GLOBAL WARMING. They go on and on at this site about this science that supposedly discredits AGW theory, yet NO ONE CAN PROVIDE A SHRED OF THIS EVIDENCE. IT DOES NOT EXIST."

hey idiot, the earth has been warming since the last ice age. F'ing MARS is warming you clown! PROVE TO ME - you dolt - that man has anything to do with GW - you noe none of your brain-dead little pu$$y hippies CAN PROVIDE A SHRED OF THIS EVIDENCE. IT DOES NOT EXIST

Job Oportunities
Employment Opportunities
Several hundred job oportunities are available for the DNC convention.

Experienced fainters (bring smelling salts)

Experienced chanters are needed.
1) Yes we can - experts
2) Change we can believe in - experts
3) Hope - experts

People to assist those with extreme leg shivers.

People to assist those having involuntary orgasms that will not stop. (bring wipes)

Apply today!

Press 1 for Spanish
Press 2 for English

Pigskinner
It takes one to know one. Warm is best. Thanks for the Indiana Farm Report. Orrin Samuelson is also a disbeliever and that's good enough for me. Straight talk from Indiana. Thanks.

COME ON GLOBAL WARMING!!
We have just suffered through one of the longest,coldest winters in many years. We even got fresh show on our mountains LAST WEEK!

The AGW coolaid drinkers are the ones ignoring the science. When your computer simulation doesn't reflect what is actually happening, a real scientist would look at his program to find out why. The "deniers" are those who stick to the AGW theories even when they can see that they were wrong in their original hypothisis.

Our atmosphere has only 380 PPM CO2. Try this, write the fraction 380/1,000,000 and reduce it to get the picture. Now realize that most of that 380 is absolutely natural. You can't get rid of it and without it WE WOULD ALL DIE! Now realize that back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, the CO2 level was TEN TIMES THAT AMOUNT!

The Earth has been "sequestering" CO2 naturally since the beginning of time. Our puny efforts would be like spitting in the ocean and expecting a tidal wave. Look at the REAL science. AGW is JUNK SCIENCE!

Retired Greek
After reading through this entire thread, your "DIPSTICKS" post is absolutly the best of the best. You summed it up nicely!

Retire Geek
Your post on the "dipsticks" is great.
Do you mind if I use it in emails?

global warming
if you are going to talk about climate ca=hange and global warming it sghould be a requirement that all of you talk to at least one eighth grader. ask him the definition of sciece, and have him explain in vert simple terms (the simplest) the difference between climate and weather. if you as a ninth grader he will just laugh at you and ask if you are kidding so be careful in your choices,

I've reached the point of going postal
I've had it with both sides of the gw arguement. NO ONE gets the KEY point, well, except Hollywood - Men in Black (seriously).

Tommy Lee to Will after showing him the 'aliens':

"1500 years ago, everybody KNEW that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody KNEW that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you KNEW that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow."

That's the key. Science is a JOURNEY, not a destination. At every point in our history we thought we KNEW all the answers. And at every point in the past we were WRONG. What logical reason can we have for thinking we have it all right now? Why should today be different?

Science is NOT democratic. If every single scientist in the world believes something with all his heart, that doesn't make it true!!!

Part 2

In 1904 if you asked every single scientist this question: 2 bicycles approach each other at 3/4 the speed of light. From the point of view of one of the bike riders how fast is the other bike approaching him? Every single scientist would have said 1 1/2 times the speed of light.

In 1905 Einstein changed that. The universe didn't change - our understanding of it did.

Just a few other simple examples:

Newton said that if he knew the position and velocity of every particle in the universe he could predict the future. Now, Heisenberg proved that wrong.

Einstein spent the last 10 years of his life trying to show that Heisenburg was wrong ("God does not play dice with the universe"). He was wrong - as a simple demonstration with 3 pieces of polarized plastic can show.

In the early part of the 20th century everyone knew the continents were fixed and immovable. Plate techtonics showed that wrong.

When I was in school everyone knew the smallest partices of matter wre protons, neutron, and electrons. Murray Gell-Man changed that with quark theory. String theroy changed it again.

Black holes have such strong gravity that nothing, not even light, can escape from them. Then Hawking showed how black holes can evaporate.

There are MILLIONS of other examples of that.

This is what people don't get. If you overreact to WRONG science you are more likely than not to make things worse - not better.




mrbmrb, HUH??????????????????
Did you say something?

Deep Thought
Now THAT is a thought that should be posted over every science classroom door and placed on a giant banner in front of congress. Of course, I am refering to:

"If you overreact to WRONG science you are more likely than not to make things worse - not better."

to Deepthought
That is an interesting misinterpretation of science you are presenting.

I wonder ... do you believe that....
- contact lenses don't work? since everyone, including scientists, believes in that science, otherwise people wouldn't put them in their eyes.
- cars don't move? since everyone including the scientists believes in the thermodynamics behind that, otherwise they wouldn't get in a car and expect it to move
- believe that animals can't be cloned? because everyone who has cloned an animal or believes that animals have been cloned -- believes that the science behind cloning has produced clones.


The mistake you are making is that you are presuming that either Einstein or Heisenberg was wrong -- well, neither was, they are both correct. Their respective disciplines simply expanded the knowledge of science to beyond what our previous understandings limited us to.

There is very clear evidence showing that AGW is real, and we need no new great leaps in science to show this.


to wally
yes, back in the earth's history, CO2 levels were much higher than they are today. But the important fact you are missing is that the Sun was also much dimmer. It is getting brighter and will continue to do so until it engulfs the Earth. The fact that CO2 has decreased while solar output has increased, yet temperature on the whole has remained constant, is yet further evidence showing that CO2 and global temperatures are intimately linked.

to Wally
your argument that CO2 is tiny in comparison to other gases in the atmosphere is not valid, because the other gases are not greenhouse gases. Even water, one of the other main greenhouse gases, only constitutes 1% of the air. It is estimated that CO2 contributes to about 30% of the Earth's greenhouse effect. And the concerns are that increasing CO2 could lead to a positive feedback relationship where increased temperature allows the air to hold more water (a 1 degree increase in temperature means the air can hold 7% more water).

to Stan
OK, then tell me where this real science is. I have been repeatedly asking for it for months now and nobody can provide anything.

To Deepthought
That really was a great thought.
I agree with Wally it should be posted above every science classroom door and especially up in front of Congress.
I think politicians should take the same oath as physicians: "First do not harm."
This would have saved the country a lot of heartache and expense in the past and should put a quick halt to the GW bills that are going to stiffle the free market even more.

to JFP
That's a very interesting topic you brought up, the issue of the "corrected" temperature chart.

Let's investigate that. Well, let's go to CO2science.com, that great bastion of "real" science being trumpeted by the GW deniers. Down at the bottom you will find a link to the report of the NON governmental IPCC, the antithesis of the IPCC. It exists to supposedly provide a balance of opinion to the IPCC. Seems like a great start. You can download the report.

Let's look at one f the first graph it shows, on page 5, figures 4a and 4b. Look at the 2 graphs. What is you first impression, the one you'd have if you looked at them for 10 seconds and then walked away? That after the correction, the warming trend disappeared. Well let's go to the source of those graphs, the NASA website noted on the graphs themselves.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

In this website:
""This August 2007 change received international attention via discussions on various blogs and repetition by some other media, with no graphs provided to show the insignificance of the effect. Further discussions of the curious misinformation are provided by Dr. Hansen on his personal webpage (e.g., his post on "The Real Deal: Usufruct & the Gorilla")."" -- this is NASA talking.

Hmm, pretty suspicious, coming from the VERY REFERENCE THEY USED IN THE NIPCC REPORT!!!!!!

to JFP
let's continue by following the link provided on the NASA website to the scientist's blog who actually made these changes to the graph:
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20070816_realdeal.pd f

In it, he says, "What we have here is a case of dogged contrarians who present results in ways intended to deceive the public into believing that the changes have greater significance than reality. They aim to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I believe that these people are not stupid, instead they seek to create a brouhaha and muddy the waters in the climate change story. They seem to know exactly what they are doing and believe they can get away with it, because the public does not have the time, inclination, and training to discern what is a significant change with regard to the global warming issue.
The proclamations of the contrarians are a deceit, but their story raises a more important matter, usufruct. It is the most important issue in the entire global warming story, in my opinion. The players in the present U.S. temperature story, we scientists included, are just bit players. The characters in the main drama are big fish, really big fish. But before we get to that matter, I need to expose how the deceit works." and he continues on, it's great reading.

This was written by the VERY SCIENTIST WHO MADE THE CORRECTIONS TO THE GRAPH the NIPCC uses in its anti-global warming report!!!!!! The very reference listed in the NIPCC REPORT!! Obviously they didn't want you to spend any time following up their references..... The irony is unbelievable!!!!!!

You are being deceived by big oil and big business, just like big tobacco tried to decieve the public into believing that smoking wasn't dangerous.

Debunking debunked
Science Avenger claims to have debunked the 10-year cooling nonsense.

Sorry. You've done nothing of the sort except cherry-pick your own data. Why stop at 1998? Why stop at 1880?

Over the last two thousand years, there are no less than 20 periods of temperature increases and decreases that are at least as large and usually larger than what we see today. That's an average of every hundred years.

Furthermore, despite at least 20 periods of temperatures with more rapid rising than today, the overall trend has been downward.

And why stop at 2000 years. Go back 10,000 years. Then we just came out of the last glacial and then trend has been flat or downward.

Fraud
"I personally cannot in good faith continue to contribute to a process that I view as both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound. As the IPCC leadership has seen no wrong in Dr. Trenberth's actions and have retained him as a Lead Author for the AR4, I have decided to no longer participate in the IPCC AR4."

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/scien ce_policy_general/000318chris_landsea_leaves.html

to mud
You are WRONG with a capital W.

The fact that everyone agrees doesn't mean it is right. It also doesn't mean it is wrong. The reality of something is independent of the consensus.

As for the other... Heisenberg WAS right, Einstein WAS wrong. When you limit your reality to that where uncertainty is largely irrelevent (too small to matter) things simplify to the 'older' answer.

My gratuate work was in physics, FYI. I've taught physics (from basic to college level) for several years.

GloBULL warming is right in the same sense that static continents were right in the ealry 1900's, etc. Whether or not it turns out to be true will only be decided many years from now as our knowledge increases past the 'by guess and by golly' era in climate analysis. Then there's the question of what causes it. My personal OPINION (not 'fact') is that the sun has far more to with oure temperature than anything we've done or are likely to do.

Also, I believe (opinion, not fact) that this planet will 'self adjust' to changes... that is there is a natural tendancy to vasilate around a core range of temperatures.


to deerhunter
I'll give you that. But it concerns the frequency and intensity of hurricanes, which the article correctly states has had very little observable correlation with CO2. I agree, and it got politicized.

But the science behind the correlation of CO2 and historic temperature is undeniably strong, and that the Earth's ice fields are mounting at very high rates, is inarguable.

That's 9 points for the GW supporters, 1 point for GW deniers.

sorry
I should edit more. That should say "melt" not "mount"

to Deep Thought
For someone who has taught physics you have displayed an astounding lack of understanding of the scientific method. You seem to think that by bringing up Heisenberg and Einstein this will bolster your scientific credibility so that you can have a valid informed opinion of GW. Yet you have provided not one shred of evidence around GW. You have stated that it is "your opinion that....", an then have the audacity to criticize the scientific method?!?!?!?!

You have repeatedly brought up the idea that scientists used to believe that tectonic plates were fixed. But the mistake you are making is assuming that these people were following the scientific method in coming to that conclusion -- well they weren't, because they simply couldn't have had access to any scientific tools which would have allowed them to answer the question of whether plates drifted. So their belief that plates were fixed was personal opinion, not scientific conclusion, because they had no science to work from!! Much like your unscientific opinion that AGW is not real!

"""Whether or not it turns out to be true will only be decided many years from now as our knowledge increases"""
But the fallacy of this argument is that it may be too late. OOPs, sea levels rose 20 feet, I guess we know it was real... And as I have provided many times here, we DO have evidence to show that GW is real.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co2-temperature-plot.svg
And look at all the information of ice melting around the world and the large increase in T in the polar latitudes. I don't have a graph handy but you don't have to search far.

to Deep Thought
""Also, I believe (opinion, not fact) that this planet will 'self adjust' to changes... that is there is a natural tendancy to vasilate around a core range of temperatures.""

Yes, you are correct, at least half correct. The Earth has indeed tended towards maintaining a steady temperature. In the past, the Sun was much dimmer. Correspondingly, CO2 concentration was much higher. Now, the Sun is brighter, and CO2 is lower. Overall, temperatures have been largely constant. Now we are again raising CO2 concentration.....

To: RetiredGeek
Quote:

Subject: Job Oportunities
Employment Opportunities
Several hundred job oportunities are available for the DNC convention.

Experienced fainters (bring smelling salts)

Experienced chanters are needed.
1) Yes we can - experts
2) Change we can believe in - experts
3) Hope - experts

People to assist those with extreme leg shivers.

People to assist those having involuntary orgasms that will not stop. (bring wipes)

Apply today!

Press 1 for Spanish
Press 2 for English

That really had nothing to do with the argument at hand and really wasn't helpful.

But it was flipping funnier than hell

mudmucker
Far more scientists denounce ACC than agree with it. Magnitudes more. Only 'pro ACC' viewpoints are politicized and gain media coverage.

From my own field (optical radiative heat transfer):
Why does NASA assign 41% of global heat dissipation to IR band radiation?

Why does IPCC conclude that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from 357ppm to 714ppm would increase atmospheric heat retention?

Why has there never been evidence of thermal runaway before?

Why does IPCC conclude that anthropogenic CO2 levels accumulate in the atmosphere; while natural CO2 dissipates? i.e. The 3% of anthropogenic contributions ENTIRELY account for the 30% increase in atmospheric CO2 levels.

I don't expect any scientific anwsers to those questions; because there are no scientific to those questions.

to deerhunter
"" Far more scientists denounce ACC than agree with it."" Where are they? Can you point me in the direction of their research? I'm sure these scientists, which are so numerous, could band together and form a coalition, and start their own peer-reviewed scientific journal. Why haven't they? Maybe because they don't exist?

If you had downloaded the NIPCC report I mentioned earlier, you would quickly notice the poor editorial quality of the publications being presented -- a testament to the quality of work going into it, even with the monetary support of big oil behind them. Surely with thousands of scientists lining up to be a part of this they'd be able to produce something of decent quality.

to deerhunter
to attempt to answer your questions:

I'm not sure what you are asking. The concern is that greenhouse gases are "transparent" to higher frequency light coming from the Sun, which then warms the planet. The lower frequency IR radiation produced by this warming is then absorbed by greenhouse gases and the planet warms even further than if all atmospheric gases were not greenhouse gases.

I don't quite follow your argument about the 3% anthropogenic CO2 emissions, etc. I'm not trying to downplay it, I really want to know what you're asking.

There is lots of evidence of past thermal runaways. Every time an ice age starts or ends it does so very quickly.

mudmucker
You didn't understand what I was saying. I'm saying the data on global warming is soft. I'm saying it's not trustworthy. I'm saying I have no reason to believe it.

And what was your response? The only response you have is that the data on the other side is also soft. How does that make the data on your side hard and reliable? It doesn't.

WRONG AGAIN, mud.....
True, you cannot apply the traditional 'scientific method' to techtonics, just as you cant to gw.

So by your very argument you cannot conclude gw is true either.... you cannot have controlled and manipulated variables. In fact you can perform no experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis... all you can do is interpret observations and make predictions based on MODELS (note, not reality, but simplified models). Only time will tell which models are more and which are less accurate.

I have neither the time not patience to argue with someone who worships at the alter of 'absolute facts' in an area of science climatology)that is still in its infancy. Our knowledge of that area as probably as sophisticated (and accurate) as Aristotle's knowledge of motion and impetus.

I would certainly hesitate to make societal changes based on estimates made from the impetus model of motion. As I would hesitate to make changes based on gw.

As an aside, I refer you to Adam Smith: I have never known much good to be done by those who affected to trade in the public good.

Deep Thought
Well I encourage you to once again learn about how the scientific method works.

""I have neither the time not patience to argue with someone who worships at the alter of 'absolute facts' in an area of science climatology)that is still in its infancy""

Me thinks that you actually CAN'T argue since you have no knowledge of this subject. Climate science is not in its infancy, it has been around in its modern form for over 30 years.

""you cannot apply the traditional 'scientific method' to techtonics, just as you cant to gw."" This is not correct. You can apply the traditional scientific method to both of these subjects. You simply make a hypothesis, and along with this a null hypothesis. If the hypothesis cannot be disproven after repeated attempts by rigorous scientific scrutiny, then it begins to become a theory. This is how all the physics you spout off came into existence. I don't see what the problem is here.

to JFP
""The only response you have is that the data on the other side is also soft. "" What?? Have you actually read what I said? I have referenced several graphs which are definitely not "soft". Do I have to provide them again?

So you'd rather believe the oil companies?

Research for Sale
mudmucker says:
"If you had downloaded the NIPCC report I mentioned earlier, you would quickly notice the poor editorial quality of the publications being presented -- a testament to the quality of work going into it, even with the monetary support of big oil behind them."

Well, there ya have it. All of the scientists who are in any way in disagreement with mudmucker's conclusions on AGW are being payed off by "big oil". It seems that scientists aren't very ethical doesn't it? Of course, "mudmucker-approved" scientists aren't being paid by anyone, right?




stop global whinnign
I am still riding my snowmobile in Colorado on a fresh foot of snow in the middle of May. If this is global warming...I LOVE IT!! The amount of snowfall we recieved here in Colorado ths winter is amazing and should provide riding into June.

mudmucker
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to discuss science (I mean above the elementary school level).
The fact that you don't what I am talking about clearly indicates that it is not possible to discuss any of the 'climate model' assumptions with you at the scientific level.

Deep Thought
You're obviously out of your league here. You're used to dealing with college seniors in a profession setting, not grade schoolers on a playground.

The scientific method stipulates that science is NEVER settled. Einstein fixing a "hole" in Newtonian physics is an example of that. Had Einstein tried doing that under the current attitude about research and "proven science" he would likely have been tarred and feathered by folks like Mud.

And here's a few top ranked scientists whose work cast doubt about AGW (I'm not saying that they do in all cases, but that their work does)
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/pages/clima te-change-the-deniers.aspx

deerhunter
what??? Show me what you are talking about.

""The 3% of anthropogenic contributions ENTIRELY account for the 30% increase in atmospheric CO2 levels."" What is the question here? What does "3% of anth. contributions" mean? What does "account for" mean? It has nothing to do with my understanding or lack of understanding of science, and everything to do with basic English skills. Can you provide the reference to which are referring?

I have studied GW for several years now and have a sound footing in the physical sciences to work from, and I seriously cannot see how your random queries are relevant without further elaboration.
Rather, I think you don't really understand how your questions even relate to GW theory, and can't back them up with any logical line of reasoning, but then shift this back onto me.

to minky
did you actually follow the links I posted, and read the comments of the scientist whose graph was used in the NIPCC report?

and BTW
I'm an engineer (otherwise known as the school of applied science). I work with mathematical (geological) models on a daily basis. A model is only as good as its inputs, and should never be mistaken for the real thing.

That's part of why I mentioned http://www.surfacestations.org above: one of the main inputs in the historical weather gathering system in the US is broken, with over 60% of tested weather stations being situated where there would be over a 2 degree change in temperature since the advent of pavement and air conditioning. This is also part of why 1998 can show as being extra-hot, because of increased urbanization.

Garbage in, garbage out. And we shouldn't hamstring our economy for garbage science.

who's been providing the evidence here
Well now the debate has sunk into attacks of academic credibility, which I generally try to avoid since that side-steps the issue.

To C_Miner, my 2 undergraduate science degrees (one in mechanical engineering, one if forest ecology) would I think take me beyond grade-school playgrounds. I am currently working in energy production, with my current project being a natural-gas fired combined cycle power plant.

I find it quite ironic that the GW deniers here have resorted to labeling myself and others as playschoolers, when I have been the only one providing any credible science!!!! No one has provided ANYTHING, besides the above post to the link to the Colorado scientist bowing out of the IPCC over the politicized hurricane issue --- which I granted due credit accordingly.

to C_Miner
Everything in science is a model. Whether it is generated by a super-computer or a simple Newtonian equation, a model is a model. And if that model is consistently successful in predicting observed phenomena within its specified range of applicability, then it can be relied upon to answer questions when in doubt. And that is what global climate models and historical climate / CO2 graphs provide -- consistent evidence linking CO2 and temperature trends.

see you next time,
Well I have to go do some work on my power plant, a little bit of Saturday work. In the last 4 hours no one has provided anything of relevance, except the Colorado scientist leaving the IPCC. If I add up all the time I've spent monitoring the responses and articles on Townhall, that's about 50 hours of nothingness as a result of my repeated requests for links to legitimate science discrediting GW theory.

See you next time, and please someone prepare some links for me. I usually come here on Saturdays.

to Mudmucker
The academic credibility only came up after you challenged another rational poster on the nature of the scientific method, and did not follow up with anything related to a debunking.

And its curious that you quote CO2 / temperature graphs from the historical record when it is well known that the CO2 lags by 800-1000 years. Indeed, what portion of the current CO2 increase is attributable to the medieval warming?

And you've obviously ignored my two references to top-of-their-field scientists as profiled in the national post and the known discrepancies in the US long term temperature records. I suppose that the ARGO array will now be dismissed as irrelevant as the expected "missing" heat has not been found in the oceans, as predicted.

Sorry, but your 3:18 post proves our points better than yours: we who test the AGW have found it deficient in many ways. AGW models have NEVER successfully been proven. And those who depend on them are finally noting outside cycles as overriding them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7376301.stm

oh, and note
I'm using a computer model from an IPCC reference group (in the BBC link) that counters other computer models used by IPCC reference groups. That doesn't mean that I agree with them, only that I find it interesting that they disagree with each other.

Credible Science
mudmucker says:
"Well now the debate has sunk into attacks of academic credibility, which I generally try to avoid since that side-steps the issue."

"I find it quite ironic that the GW deniers here have resorted to labeling myself and others as playschoolers, when I have been the only one providing any credible science!!!!"

If I'm not mistaken, it is you who have attacked the credibility of hundreds of scientists by insinuating that they have been bought off by "big oil". Do you remember saying "So you'd rather believe the oil companies?".

I am not a "GW denier". That is your blanket lib-speak generalization. I believe that science has a long way to go before they have the data to conclude that humans are the primary cause of this little upward trend in temperatures.

By the way, you do not have the proper credentials to be "providing any credible science" to the discussion.

mudmucker
You want to discuss Athropogenic Global Warming; but don't understand what 'Anthropogenic Contributions' means?

That's like saying you want to discuss 'addition' but don't know how to add.


Also...
It is your opinion that the quantative level of IR radiation emanating from the Earth's surface, and CO2 IR absorbency characteristics, are irrelevant to the issue of global warming.

And

It is your opinion that radiative heat transfer principles are 'random queries' when regading global warming.

Pretty clear to me where you are coming from.

mudmucker
"I have referenced several graphs which are definitely not 'soft'."

How do you know the data in them isn't soft?

Go back to my first post and re-read what I said about the year 1998. A year ago no one like you was talking about the year 1998. You were talking about how warm the previous year was. But then someone noticed that the calculations weren't done right, and now you talk about 1998 as the warmest year. And you now expect me to believe all your other stuff.

Moreover, this change wasn't made with a lot of publicity ("oops, we goofed") and apologies, but was done on the sly. In other words, it was done with a total lack of integrity.

Then there's the hockey stick....

"So you'd rather believe the oil companies?"

Do you have some data showing that every scientist who is a skeptic is in the employ of the oil companies? If so, I'd like to see it. If not, it just confirms for me that all your data is soft.

Actually, the first scientist I heard about who was a skeptic was a woman who was an astrophysicist, who warned that we couldn't be sure if the sun wasn't responsible. Do you think oil companies employ astrophysicists?

mudmucker
"see you next time,
Well I have to go do some work on my power plant, a little bit of Saturday work. In the last 4 hours no one has provided anything of relevance, except the Colorado scientist leaving the IPCC. If I add up all the time I've spent monitoring the responses and articles on Townhall, that's about 50 hours of nothingness as a result of my repeated requests for links to legitimate science discrediting GW theory.

See you next time, and please someone prepare some links for me. I usually come here on Saturdays. "
~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry, your 50 hours of nothingness could have been better spent watching grass grow.

Also sorry you could not learn anything.

And, thanks for the warning about Saturdays.

I will avoid your Saturday appearance, and your tripe.

I will take my own advice, and watch grass grow. A good use of gaseous carbon dioxide.


global warming
global warming is just another Al Gorbasm. The poor little rich boy has nothing else to do.

mccain gave a speech, i swear he did
dos anyone remember that Mccain gave a speech last week, a speeech that he himself labeled as major. It was his "Impossible Dream" otr "Wouldnt it be Loverly " speech. Ill bet he is doing all he can to forget it also. therin lies the answer as to who will win in Novwember. does anyone remember bushs stupidity and Obams reply. Of course you do. therein lies the answer as to who will win the election in November. As long as obama can keep running against Bush hes a shoo in.

A CYCLICAL ARGUMENT
Isn't it funny that when someone points out an unusually cool day or month or year, the global warming cult says, " It's just a snapshot that you're using. Global warming is a phenomenon that can only be measured in decades of measurements; not with these 'snapshots'.

But just you wait. As soon as the first hurricane hits ANY coast, these same blowhards will say, "See, we told you. Look what humans have done".

So whatever happened to their big picture; their 'decade cyclical' argument?

I'll tell you. They only use that argument when it suits their position.

Hey, global warming guys. I guess now's the time that we should all stock up on supplies and get ready for the next 'swarm' of hurricanes, huh? Just like the last few years?

So experts, how many 'canes have hit since Katrina? Even Al Gore can count those on one hand.

But I guess I should be seeing the BIGGER PICTURE.
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