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Saturday, October 06, 2007
Rich Tucker :: Townhall.com Columnist
We're the Answer, Not the Problem
by Rich Tucker
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


It really may be impossible to mock liberals. No matter how absurd a proposal seems, a liberal can always pretend it’s serious and even take it one step further.

Say all human beings agreed to leave the planet by blasting themselves into space. Environmentalists would complain that the rocket they left in was damaging the planet with its toxic emissions.

Luckily for libs, though, author Alan Weisman has come up with a neater way for us to leave the planet. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And that whimper would be the sound of billions of people around the world choosing not to procreate. His book is called “The World Without Us,” and Slate magazine calls it a “strangely comforting vision of human annihilation.”

Comforting? Speak for yourself. I kind of like it here.

Oh, but things will just get better and better when we’re gone, the book claims.

“Nature lovers can take solace in the idea that the planet will thrive once we’ve finally destroyed ourselves with global warming,” Daniel Engber writes in Slate. “Freshwater floods would course through the New York subway system, ailanthus roots would heave up sidewalks and a parade of coyotes, bears and deer would eventually trot across the George Washington Bridge and repopulate Manhattan.”

Two observations here: If it’s such a great idea to pump water through the subways, why are we fighting global warming? We ought to be speeding it up to raise ocean levels and inundate our costal cities so much more quickly. Also, who’s going to maintain the George Washington Bridge so the animals can stroll across it? As we saw in Minnesota, even the bridges we humans are actively trying to maintain sometimes collapse. Surely they’d all fall apart pretty quickly if we weren’t around to repair them.

The Slate piece starts with the assumption that greenhouse gasses will destroy humanity. If that’s true, the first thing to do would be to kill all the cows. After all, as a U.N. report last year noted, “Cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in CO2 equivalent, than transportation.”

But the Slate story misses the implications of its own observations. “Our kids won’t spew as much greenhouse gas as we do—automobiles, appliances, light bulbs, and everything else will become more efficient in coming generations,” Daniel Engber writes in passing.

Well, of course they will. Because humans, the planet’s greatest resource, will make everything more efficient. Unless, of course, we follow the author’s advice and stop reproducing. In that case there won’t be enough humans to solve the planet’s future problems the way we’ve solved its past problems. It wasn’t so long ago that the Cuyahoga River was on fire and Lake Erie was dead. Today they’re cleaner than ever. Once, TV stations across the nation ran an ad featuring an Indian crying as a passerby littered. “People start pollution, people can stop it,” the ad warned. Well, we did. We’ve cleaned up litter, cleaned up the water, cleaned up the air. And become more fuel efficient in the process.

For example, just a few hundred years ago we got most of our energy from wood. A scientist projecting humanity’s future in 1786 would have predicted disaster. Americans were hacking down forests at an alarming rate to create farm land, generate fire wood and build ships. Then we discovered coal and petroleum. Where once we cut down trees and killed uncounted numbers of whales (for oil), we now plant trees and protect whales.

We’re the only species on the planet that’s even capable of thinking about protecting the world around us. If a pride of lions could kill every zebra in Africa, it would, and there wouldn’t be any more zebras. The lions would never get together and say, “Hey, there are fewer and fewer zebras these days. Let’s kill some gazelles instead and let the zebras repopulate in a protected area.”

Or consider our predecessors, the dinosaurs. They seem to have died off when a meteor hit the planet. Of course, they never saw it coming and never knew what hit them. They simply disappeared.

We humans might at least be able to track the rock that would destroy us, and maybe even take a shot at it. We might fail, as in the 1998 Tea Leoni movie “Deep Impact.” Or succeed, as in the 1998 Bruce Willis movie “Armageddon.” But at least we’d have a shot.

Without humans around to protect them, lions, tigers and bears will face extinction when a meteor inevitable drifts in this direction. Ironically, though, while most other life might be killed off, human adaptability might just allow us to survive even a direct meteor hit. Don’t bet against us.

What’s amazing is that humans can be smart enough to study our environment and write books, yet many of us aren’t smart enough to realize that humanity will be the solution to -- not the cause of -- our planet’s problems.

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About The Author

Rich Tucker is an editor in Washington D.C. and a columnist for Townhall.com.

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Crust Shifting

When they have capped the volcanoes and turned down the sun to control the climate, they really need to get busy on Crust Shifting!
More people die from earthquakes every year than have died from climate change in the past 100 years. Someone needs to stop this Crust Shifting!
In California billions of dollars of prime real-estate is at risk, from Crust Shifting!
Crust Shifting!
Crust Shifting!
Oh my!

Divided We Will Fall
“It really may be impossible to mock liberals. No matter how absurd a proposal seems, a liberal can always pretend it’s serious and even take it one step further.”

Labels, labels, labels – what is it that you get some self-gratification by caricaturing people with labels? Liberals and conservatives built this country. They together wrote our Constitution, fought our wars, invented our technology, and built our economy and our culture. We are a big family of 300 million, yet it seems to write an article on Town Hall one has to appear to have some absolute certainty of his/her opinion – and to spew that opinion as God’s certain truth.

Where is intellectual neutrality or at least objectivity? Where is a realization that continuing to add to our tectonic polarization cannot lead to a coming together as a nation to deal with our common problems?

To act as if all liberals are Michael Moore incarnate or all conservatives are Ann Coulter incarnate is to only make a juvenile simplification of the true nature of America’s character.

Debate is good, facts are good, logic is wonderful, but playing to the crowd with propagandist innuendo and a constant drum beat diminution of the legitimate political values of the right or the left is bullying and petty, and we are a better people than this level of discourse would suggest.

DUMBER THAN ROCKS
There are no dumber humans than these annihilationists who wax so freaken' stupid, they would startle a raging Kodiak.

Educated, intelligent people understsnd that the real challenge is to figure a way to make it with humans included. Giving up on Man is the most gutless, cowardly way to proceed.

But that is what they bring to the table - time after time after time.

Virginia Patriot
You disappoint me. When i saw your heading of crust shifting, i thought it would be about stealing someone else's piece of the pie. Instead, you merely babble on about the death of the human race due to natural catastrophe. Please confine your future posts to something important, like whether another ice age will wipe us out before global warming does the trick. And by the way,if you are handing out pieces of crust, i'll take mine on a tectonic plate.

Anybody have a clue
as to what the hell Rusty Gun is talking about?

Chopper John

Let me go you one better - anyone care?

Uncle Max,
thanks, I needed that. Thankfully, my peanut butter and jelly are starting to kick in.

Virginia Patriot
Was that a sarcasm?

Global Warming is a good business! Grants! Research! Jobs! Money!

Yeah right!

Chopper John,
Rusty Gun is telling us, in his own "special" way, that roadies can always find the strongest drugs money can buy.

On Geezer Rock and the Nanny State
Rolling Stones are the best of the Geezer Rock bands.

And don't you forget it. But if you forget it, it's OK. Alzheimers will do that to a person.

We poke fun at radical environmentalists at our peril. These folks have just about hijacked the democrat party. John Edwards has already said we Americans will just have to give up our suvs and pick-up trucks, for our own good, of course. And Manhattanite Thomas Friedman also insists we give up gas guzzlers.

In truth, these zealots are one step removed from fascists or even communists who will dictate what we can purchase, all in the name of bettering the world.

No Humans?
If we all disappear who will be around to enjoy this great paradise of nature that these nuts claim will happen? I recall a Jack Ryan/John Clark novel written by Tom Clancy years ago where a group of people decided to spread a very virulent form of Ebola virus to reduce the world's population from its current 6 billion or so to about 10 million. Their idea was that man was the source of all the planet's problems and if we could eliminate 95% or so of the world's population we would be in a paradise. Of course they didn't mean themselves and had an escape planned to a remote area of the Amazon rainforest. Of course our heroes defeated their nefarious plot. These econuts scare the heck out of me sometimes.

Try This!
One sheet of toilet tissue for Algore, lovable Mikie Moore, and Soros. Then as time wears on, let's hear it from them to see if that test works. If so, we may adopt it. See - look at all of the trees. The dinosaurs were not killed off by asteroid impacts, there were cave-agore men who were cleaning up the flatus makers to improve the world. And we just cannot continue to increase the world population. Look what the heavy weighted Indonesians are doing to their rim of fire nations - the Crust Shifting is causing 7 - 9 earthquakes. Proof? You do not see this type of violent earthquakes in Utah and North Dakota. It's fewer people per square centimeter, or inch, or hectare, or whatever.

Hey Chopper: My question exactly!

But I think doug has the answer... Pretty pathetic, isn't it.



Anne, et al.
Good morning! I took a chance, and actually read an exerpt from this book. Why the author didn't call it 'The Environmentalist's Final Solution' is beyond me.

RustyGun
There's a difference between saying that most groupies (if that's the right word) are women who come from conservative households and most women from conservative households become (even if it's just for one night) groupies.

Not that I believe either one.

Not quite Stormrunner...
You say (and I assume you are talking about the early days of this country):

"Liberals and conservatives built this country."

There are very few people left who hold the views of those who "built this country". Even social conservatives are generally more liberal than the guys who built this country. But Stormrunner, if you can find some socialists (aka modern liberals) amongst those who initially formed this nation, please point them out to us.

Then you say: "They together wrote our Constitution"

There were no socialists amongst the founders. Maybe among the Mayflower travelers but that experiment failed. Pretty much all of the founders (except for maybe Thomas Paine) would today be considered to the right of Pat Robertson.

You continue: ..."fought our wars".

Certainly there have always been a few socialists in our military. But they would be the exception. As Ann Coulter points out in her aptly titled book, "If Democrats had any brains, they would be Republicans", even our current military is disproportionately Conservative by a huge margin: Bush voters 73% to Kerry voters of 18%.

As for labels, when used correctly, they are absolutely essential for ongoing dialog. I never understood the desire to eliminate shorthand in a conversation.

Sure, I COULD say, "you know, those people who believe in statism, abortion, higher taxes, government control of our lives, minimal private property rights, banning of guns, no foreign interventionism except when they are in power, the hoax of global warming, and and a desire for only Muslim rights in the public square."

But it's just quicker to use the word "Liberal" instead.

Or there's the other option:

Vizzini: Move the "thing". And that other "thing"!

-The Princess Bride (1987)

Beeblebrox
While reading your post, I couldn't help but nod at all the salient points you made, until I read Vizzini's quote, and burst out laughing!! And you are correct: there were no liberals as we know them today during our founding. They would have been considered heathens.

Beeblebrox
Nicely stated well considered points.

YLG
They would have been considered the town idiots. 18th century life in the colonies had no place for those looking for big govt to help out. Govt was usually a long long walk away, and in any case had few to no funds for charity. Issues like abortion were handled at home because doctors were nothing like today and not available. There was no 2nd amendment, but a firearm on the mantel. Anti-gunners were virtually unknown. Those who didn't know the differences between men and women were laughingstocks, not members of NOW. Those who didn't contribute to their best level and were not personally loved, were left to their own devices and usually a sad end. Reality was in every person's face, even the stupid were motivated to do what they could. Now the economy is so specialized, weird and even unfair access to affluence so prevalent, that PC fantasies abound.

Mocking Liberals
As a Staunch Conservative Christian Republican myself, I find it beneath Conservative dignity to spend so much time skinning the liberals, while at the same time the Republican Party, more and more smells like the stinkiest outhouse ever, Mr. Tucher? The same goes for Ann Coulter. If you and other Conservative liberal skinners had any brains, the Republican party would be like it should be! However, I conclude, this is typical of selfdestruction as always, all the way back when man Christ walked the dusty roads of Galile, while the Pharisees gloried themselves as idiots know best!

The idiots have cleaned up the planet
I'm a little confused by the authors examples of cleaning up litter and cleaning rivers, etc. I thought conservatives have always accused liberals of being behind these ideas. Now the author says these are good things.

Savage99
It is amazing how far we have regressed, isn't it? I come from a backwater little town in Puerto Rico, which still operates in this manner. It might be an hispanic Brigadoon. However, in that town, charity is managed by the townspeople, not the gov't. I bet they have never heard of NOW or the environmentalist movement. However, they have heard of the Nanny State concept.

Cleaning the planet
Proud Liberal writes:

"Now the author says these are good things."

Why wouldn't he? Conservatives have always been conservationists. The Christian doctrine of being stewards of the Earth is central to our belief system. If you destroy the planet then you have minimal opportunity for advancing the Christian ethic of sustainable self-reliance.

- look at socialist countries around the world. Are their environments cleaner than ours?
- Look at the aftermath of a U2 rock concert vs. a church service. Where will you find more litter?
- Look at the Liberal desire to stop the practice of hunting even though hunting is the very thing that is keeping deer, elk and other burgeoning wildlife populations from completely destroying natural habitat.
- Observe the Liberal desire to take private lands away from the individual (who has the motivation to keep his land in pristine condition) and turn it over to the government where there is no motivation to maintain the land for future productive use.
- Observe the effect of Liberalism's Endangered Species Act which demonstrably harms wildlife habitat.
- Observe the advance of capitalism which produces technological innovations that make vehicle emissions cleaner, energy production more efficient and cleaner, and so on.
- Notice that conservatism/capitalism rewards those who take care of themselves and the environment around them while Liberalism promotes sloth and apathy (ever seen government "projects"? Tell me they are environmentally friendly.)

Others could probably come up with dozens of examples of how Liberalism harms the environment. And don't even get me started on the hoax of anthropogenic global warming and how its adherents are undermining the funding of real scientific inquiry that could honestly advance a cleaner civilization.

Morning YLG, and others.
Beeblebrox, you must be a conservative to be so logical. My my, careful now. You'll have these liberals foaming at the mouth and calling you all sorts of nasty names if you continue to invoke sanity. Tsk tsk, sir. Control yourself.

GLOBAL WARMING PREVENTS ICE AGE

.....Attention Al Gore and all eco-freaks ...

.....Stop Global Warming and in 20,000 years we'll be up to our armpits in glacial ice ...

.....We can handle a little inland flooding with dikes and levees the way the Dutch hold back the North Sea ...but what do you clowns propose to do about a mile high mountain of ice as it approaches Manhattan? .....COLOSSUS

Motley
Morning! Sorry to leave in the middle of this thread, but I'm driving to my parents for the weekend. I might be able to come back tonight, though. Keep slapping some sense into the envirowackos!

Robert
I want to be a superhero

Environmentalists
Lets take a good look at the future if we follow the lead of Enviro"mentalists" Wecan start with
their Capital, California. You can not buy land
to build a house and you can't Tear a old house down to rebuild on the site because that land would then be protected for the enviroment and the
average home 1500 square feet is $300,000.Taxes
are the highest in the nation.Gas is over $3 a gallon. There are more cars on their roads than
any where else and they can't exopand them or build more because some envion"mentalist" found
a mud fish in a rain puddle and called them an endangered specie. Let's ship them all to Mars and that they can have a pristine planet all to them selves. They might last thirty days in the
ship because they all voted not to step out on the ground and defile nature.

Sorry to see you go, YLG.
I myself must follow suit shortly, although hopefully not before a liberal or two is eviscerated. At my age, I have to take my pleasures where I can find them.

AirForcetoo. With your kind permission
I shared your magnificent post of last Saturday with many of my associates and family. It was the one in which you laid out exactly who we are at war with, and why that war must be fought. Thank you.

Hey Anne
and others, I was gone awhile. Had to crank up the pickup, ATV, motorcycle, little car, and all my fossil fuel burning lawn toys. If we are all doomed anyway, might as well go enjoying myself.

MotleyCrue
Get unedited book "America is God.s Country"
ISBN 1-4241-9049-5 and find out more.

Liberalism destroys the environment
@ MotleyCrue: You're probably right. I will be more careful in the future. not.

@ AirForceToo: You bring to mind the reality of socialism run amok in California. Socialist policies are driving the money that would help the environment OUT of CA.

Upper, middle class businesspeople are moving to states with more favorable government policies toward business and housing.

A standard nuclear family can no longer afford to live in many areas of the Central CA and So CA because of environmental and central planning policy. More critically in Southern California, the huge influx of illegals is turning once bright, clean neighborhoods into dirty, broken down barrios with dozens of people to a house.

In Santa Cruz county it is almost impossible to get a building permit so homes are built without them. A "remodel" can be tearing the house completely down except for one wall and then putting a new shell up. This gets around onerous new housing permit requirements. Of course, it also is more environmentally unfriendly for a wide variety of reasons.

Most importantly, if the car is the most evil thing on the planet, it is ironic that Liberals ENCOURAGE its use. The high cost of close-in suburban housing is typically the result of high taxation, over-regulation, idiotic requirements of developers (to build bike paths, fund new infrastructure upgrades, sidewalks along the edge of their developments) and so on. This forces developments farther and farther to the fringes of the cities, forcing people to make massive environmentally damaging commutes every morning and evening.

A Santa Cruz example follows...

Liberalism destroys the environment II

In the city of Santa Cruz, one of the most liberal in the United States, they have had a growing traffic congestion problem disproportionate to their population for a decade or so. Near the center of town is the confluence of highway 17 (which goes from SC to San Jose) and Highway 1 which goes along the coast from beyond the Golden Gate, through the center of town and down along Monterey Bay into areas that are less expensive to live. The city council has refused to fix the tangle of intersections found where 17 and 1 meet because if they did "people would use it more". To their way of thinking, if people sit in a huge snarl of traffic everyday, they will give up their cars.

But they fail to realize that not only do idling cars on a freeway cause more pollution than the free flow of traffic but also that their idiotic land use planning has forced more commuting.

They are their own worst enemy and the avowed enemy of the environment but they don't even recognize it. Quite pathetic actually.

Beeblebrox writes: 9:38 AM
Excellent post. Well done.

Not quite Beeblebrox . . .
I suggest you pull out your Webster and refresh your understanding of the labels “liberal” and “conservative”. I’d further suggest you afford yourself of the studies that indicate how those with conservative leanings are apt to be individuals who are attracted to authoritarian control. This may, in part, explain the spilt in our current volunteer military. I imagine the military in Myanmar has even higher percentages that are conservative.

Our earlier wars that were soldiered by a draft would certainly have cut more equally across the population.

In the context of the time, democracy was a very liberal concept. In the context of the time Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and many more of our founders would have been seen as liberal. Certainly the Loyalists and the Tories occupied the conservative niche at the time.

If a liberal characteristic is the ability to see things in the context of the time and place they occurred, then I value that characteristic. If being liberal means I am less drawn to authoritarian father figures, and am more independent, questioning, open minded, and take responsibility for my own path in life, then I value that characteristic.

Yes, there is a broad swatch of the population that can be mesmerized by an authoritarian figure who suggests he/she, and thus you, belong to the superior race, religion, creed, etc. And I suppose that is why there will always be unquestioning followers of a Hitler, a Pope, a Castro, a Pat Roberson, a Osama bin Laden, etc.

It is authoritarian led conservatives who end up being the cadres of recruits for authoritarian headed conservative movements. Thank God for those not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms -- they are the “liberals”.




Not quite Beeblebrox . . .
I suggest you pull out your Webster and refresh your understanding of the labels “liberal” and “conservative”. I’d further suggest you afford yourself of the studies that indicate how those with conservative leanings are apt to be individuals who are attracted to authoritarian control. This may, in part, explain the spilt in our current volunteer military. I imagine the military in Myanmar has even higher percentages that are conservative.

Our earlier wars that were soldiered by a draft would certainly have cut more equally across the population.

In the context of the time, democracy was a very liberal concept. In the context of the time Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and many more of our founders would have been seen as liberal. Certainly the Loyalists and the Tories occupied the conservative niche at the time.

If a liberal characteristic is the ability to see things in the context of the time and place they occurred, then I value that characteristic. If being liberal means I am less drawn to authoritarian father figures, and am more independent, questioning, open minded, and take responsibility for my own path in life, then I value that characteristic.

Yes, there is a broad swatch of the population that can be mesmerized by an authoritarian figure who suggests he/she, and thus you, belong to the superior race, religion, creed, etc. And I suppose that is why there will always be unquestioning followers of a Hitler, a Pope, a Castro, a Pat Roberson, a Osama bin Laden, etc.

It is authoritarian led conservatives who end up being the cadres of recruits for authoritarian headed conservative movements. Thank God for those not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms -- they are the “liberals”.

Tell me about it, Beeblebrox.
I live in Marina del Rey, a coastal community surrounded by Los Angeles. My daughter's new 1bd apartment in Playa del Rey rents at $2500 per mo.
Mine's overlooking the boats in the Marina. I can't bear to think how much this 2bd is going for, I'd commit suicide. But family keeps us rooted here, grandkids, etc.

stormrunner writes:
"Our earlier wars that were soldiered by a draft would certainly have cut more equally across the population."
---------------------

One can conveniently forget that Canada's population swells considerably whenever America goes to war, and it certainly isn't from young men who happen to think the USA worth fighting for. Could it be they are "Liberals" perchance, and possibly cowards to boot. Both, I would imagine.

YLG opines
"Why the author didn't call it 'The Environmentalist's Final Solution' is beyond me."

That was beautiful. Thanks for the grin.


Oh, now it's the dictionary :rollseyes:
C'mon Stormrunner,

You're going to go to the dictionary definition of liberal and conservative as a debating point on current political labels? This is bogus freshman-level poli sci argument.

The founders were, what we would today call, conservatives. Or if you prefer, modern conservatives would be what they, in 1776 would have called a liberal. There. You feel better now?

I can't believe I am even having to explain why, by the dictionary defintion modern liberals are actualyl "conservative". Today's liberals want to "conserve" the status quo of big government, public education, abortion on demand, illegal immigration, yadda yadda yadda. So since Liberals want to conserve the status quo I should now call them "conservatives"? Please.

Your's is the height of obtuseness.

In the context of political labels, since you are apparently too thick Stormrunner, to understand the nuance of the issue let me explain...

Conservatives claim the name because we want to conserve the founding principles of the first conservatives (known today as CLASSIC liberals.) I am a classic liberal. The founders were classic liberals, Reagan was a classic liberal, Bill Buckley is a classic liberal.

Do we have that cleared up now?

I stick to my statement modern liberals (aka socialists) WERE NOT PART OF THE FOUNDING nor did they build this country. PERIOD.




MotleyCrue opines . . .
Thanks MotleyCrue – let’s extend your analogy to George W. Bush, Cheney, Rove -- your argument is specious.

Use you return Key, over and over
I am going to keep posting this until … …

I would have more esteem for TH posters if they used short paragraphs.

No one has time to read all this fascinating stuff in detail, so if the paragraphs are short, they can be scanned, if they are long, they should be skipped.

Beeble, hmm, must have struck a nerve
As usual, you show your colors -- bullying, ad hominem attacks, and the arrogance of ignorance -- sorry Beeblebrox, you don't intimidate me with attacks. But I can be persuaded by civil discourse, logic, facts, and rational debate.

Climb down from your high horse for a moment and perhaps you will be a more credible poster.

There are different kinds of flight.
There is "white" flight from expanding urban ghettos. There is "The Flight of the Bumblebee." And then, of course, there is the phenomena of "YELLOW FLIGHT." That is the flight of liberals across the northern border when America even hints at flexing its muscles.

Open-minded liberals?
Stormrunner, you wrote "those with conservative leanings are apt to be individuals who are attracted to authoritarian control", and you say that liberals are are open-minded.

But, at every turn, modern liberals are agitating for more authoritarian control. Eaxamples: A higher minimum wage, enforced by government thugs eith guns. Authoritarian.

Nationalized healthcare in some form. Penalty for those who don't join in, enforced by government thugs with guns. Authoritarian.

Higher taxes for rich. All taxes are collected under threat of violence, otherwise no one would pay them. That's right, by government thugs with guns. Authoritarian.

You seem to imply that Hitler was a conservative, or someone conservatives would follow. He was actually more like today's liberals. He promised national healthcare, taxes on the rich, strengthened labor unions. Sound familiar?

If you are still a liberal, you are not open-minded. When I was a liberal, I WAS open-minded. My open-mindedness caused me to realize my mistake, so I switched over. Now I believe in freedom, and I bet if you really thought about it, you would see that freedom is better than the police state liberals are so desperate to create.

Police State Liberal no more

Beeblebrox
What a preposterous piece of anecdotal evidence to support such a broad-brush claim. So traffic in Santa Cruz “proves” liberals are bad for the environment , eh? Try at least some perfunctory attempt at research first (looking out your window doesn't count) before launching some platitude as evidence. Here, I’ll help you.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/sep_sum/plain_html/rank_use_per_cap.html

Now, compare per capita energy consumption of the fifty states. See any trends there? Besides an occasional exception, it should be apparent to all (except the ideologically hidebound and intellectually stunted) that the most “liberal states” use less (substantially less in many cases) energy per capita than the most “conservative” states.

My desire is to see energy independence from the countries that we are helping to prop up today, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and Venezuela. Energy efficiency should be a common goal for Americans. Unfortunately idiots like Rush Limbaugh advocate wastefulness and inefficiency for no other reason than to avoid giving the appearance of caving in to a better idea...an idea that just happens to be more popular among liberals right now. I hope that changes.

stormrunner writes:
"Thanks MotleyCrue – let’s extend your analogy to George W. Bush, Cheney, Rove -- your argument is specious."

Then he goes on to say to beeblebrox:

"As usual, you show your colors -- bullying, ad hominem attacks, and the arrogance of ignorance --"

Tsk tsk, stormrunner. Can't we be civil?

calm down Police State !
I suppose, to carry forward your incoherent argument, it would be “government thugs with guns” who collect the revenue to pay for our war in Iraq, who collect support payments from deadbeat dads, who enforce our civil rights, who break up monopolies, and who regulate the air space for aviation – and on and on.

Your Timothy McVeigh mentality is surely not my idea of either true liberalism or true conservatism.

Motley
Please step back and notice that I was stating the argument as specious - I was not attacking personally its author. And notice that there was no counter to my assertion that Bush, Cheney, and Rove went to some length to avoid being on the front lines during a time of war.

If you have facts of the conservative/liberal breakdown of draft dodgers, them please share them.

My Rap
Back in 1964,
We learned the future was no more.
The path that our species chose
Means the world will have froze
By A.D. 1995.
Well here we are, still alive,
And know that we'll soon be dead meat,
'Cause CO2 lets off much heat.
So much rises up from Bossie's farts
We mustn't buy the beef in marts.
Never mind that elephant gas
Will beat poor Bossie's farts in mass.
What now is clear is that the Green refrains
Show pudding in the head for brains.

Campy writes:
"My desire is to see energy independence from the countries that we are helping to prop up today, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and Venezuela. Energy efficiency should be a common goal for Americans. Unfortunately idiots like Rush Limbaugh advocate wastefulness and inefficiency for no other reason than to avoid giving the appearance of caving in to a better idea...an idea that just happens to be more popular among liberals right now. I hope that changes."
-----------------------

And what is that idea, Campy, old boy? Pray, do tell.

Thanks campagnola
Working from data, facts, and some reasoned debate is refreshing.

It is similarly instructive to see how divorce rates in the red states compare with the divorce rates in the blue states:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

it will be filled in a hundred years
I am still waiting to hear of an Environmental Impact Report (EIR) that intends to do anything but delay or discourage a project. If you need a new trash dump, the EIR will say that if you dump things in that hole, it will be filled in a hundred years.

Hooray, and you get that report for a modest $1,000,000 of tax payer funds.

We must make sure hospitals have a complete list of the anti-nuclear people. We wouldn't want a mistake to be made and have their lives saved through the application of Nuclear Medicine.

Remember the lady who was incensed to receive a drink of water in a Styrofoam cup while on a cross-country flight on a 747?

The environmaniacs still fly, but they don't want to drink from a Styrofoam cup. That is by now an Urban Ledgend, but I actually saw it happen, on one of the first ever 747 flights, in the late 1960s.

Don't you wonder about those windmills. Last I heard, they were tax shelters, and were never planned to produce a profit for anyone but the people who produce, install and run them.

Will one ever last long enough to produce more power than it took to mine the ore, smelt it, form it, produce it, ship it, install it, maintain it, etc.?

The government requires that the electric companies buy the high-priced electric power, and the public has to put up with the ugliness.

kepha's poem
Tee Hee!

That was right on!

@ campagnolo
"So traffic in Santa Cruz “proves” liberals are bad for the environment "


Yes it does. Next question?

Motley -- how about this as the idea
Dependence on unreliable foreign energy sources is a threat to our country. Demand for fossil fuels is outpacing supply and world reserves are dwindling. And the burning of fossil fuels pollutes our environment and, according to the best scientific consensus, is altering our protective atmosphere such that historical and projected burning of fossil fuels may have serious global consequences.

Having a stewardship of our natural world and a responsibility for the legacy to our children is both a conservative and a liberal idea.

Conservation, leadership on educating and persuading the world to this environmental threat, leadership in developing alterative energy sources – these should all be policies where both conservatives and liberals find common ground.

VHEMT
The nut Weisman, the subject of this column, has plenty of company. Check out the website of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, at http://www.vhemt.org/ .

Fortunately, this movement is self-defeating. Those who accept its teaching will remove their genes from the gene pool.

You state my argument is specious,
stormrunner, then go tiptoeing through the tulips as if that's the end of it. Therefore, for the sake of edification and clarity, (sigh) I will reprint my statement.

To wit: "One can conveniently forget that Canada's population swells considerably whenever America goes to war, and it certainly isn't from young men who happen to think the USA worth fighting for. Could it be they are "Liberals" perchance, and possibly cowards to boot. Both, I would imagine."

To which you replied: "Thanks MotleyCrue – let’s extend your analogy to George W. Bush, Cheney, Rove -- your argument is specious."
--------------------

(a) Are you telling me that GWB took the Yellow Brick Road to Canada, and that those photos I've seen of him in a flight suit were photo-shopped?
My God, sir. Why have you waited this long to share this with the rest of us?

(b) As for Rove and Cheney, I haven't a clue as to their service in the cause of their country, unless of course, like Clinton, Reid, Chucky Schumer, Barney Franks, Kennedy, et al, they considered their political service as sufficient.

Oh, just a reminder. Civility above all things is considered de rigueur on TH, so if you can't come up with a reasoned argument based on facts, then screw off.











Hitler=Pat Robertson
This comment from a guy who is lecturing me about ad hominums and demanding I be civil.

Show me one place, Hunter, that I used an ad hominum. Meanwhile, your posts are full of contrived straw men, ad hominums (as in the aforementioned comparison of Hitler and OBL to Pat Robertson), lies, distortions, and down right idiocy.

You have consistently failed to defend your rabid positions, stooping at times to the sophomoric dictionary definition minutia of what constitutes a "liberal" and a "conservative" as if any liberal/socialist has anything in common with the Founders.

Go back to class Hunter and learn some history. Then rejoin the adults for a real discussion.

BTW, thanks for this civil comment: "Climb down from your high horse for a moment and perhaps you will be a more credible poster."

Credibility comes from producing a quality argument. The altitude from which that argument is made is irrelevant. If you want to support your position (I know, "proving" one's point is evidently beneath you Hunter) please do so. And by the way, I am not bullying you with attacks, I am bullying you with FACTS. There is a difference.

Thatisall.

stormy writes:
"Thanks campagnola. Working from data, facts, and some reasoned debate is refreshing.

It is similarly instructive to see how divorce rates in the red states compare with the divorce rates in the blue states:"

Huh???

Hillary will
I believe that if Hillary prevails in '08, we will soon have global warming on the run. I've heard that she plans to institute fart police to reduce noxious gas emissions; also, she favors a national flatulence tax. Fart at your own peril, America -- if you can't control yourselves, Hillary will.

Yep, Motley, it's specious
Motley,

And again you insist on being hoist by your own petard. Unable to maintain civil discourse, you throw a prissy fit. And you seem to believe that pushing an unsubstantiated claim about Viet Nam draft dodgers proves some point about the character of liberals. That is specious.

Notice, I’m not defending either draft dodgers who fled abroad or draft dodgers who managed exclusion through deferments and connections -- both made decisions to avoid serving on the front line of an American war.

should a Liberal Government consist of
Let’s not continue to use the Internet as a place to bi*ch and scream and call people names. For fun and for education I have a request.

Will one of you proud Liberals list 5 or 10 items that you say are most important in any proper (read Liberal for this task) Government. What exactly do you want, that the people on the other side of the political chasm do not want.

And don’t waste your time on Bush and Iraq, those won’t last forever, but if you have your chance, your Government will. What policies exactly, should a Liberal Government consist of.

And I assign the same chore to a proud Conservative. What is it you are talking about, and what are you afraid of, in a Government bureaucracy.

motley writes: "Huh???"
"Huh???"

Duh, check out the link. Facts are useful, even better than assumptions, stupid insinuations, or closely held mythologies. The point is that despite the vitriol towards "liberals" fostered on this site, there is an opposing argument. An argument that data from red regions of the country can be compared with blue regions of the country that conservatives may not want to open-mindedly consider.

Similar to the fact that for six years of Republican control of all branches of government, there seems little of a conservative legacy that would be expected?

Two threads in one
Having a discussion on two threads with two leftists is fun, but at the risk of forgetting to whom I am writing. I blame the TH software for this but I apologize for confusing the various names of Hunter, Stormtooper and Hal.

I have to keep refreshing just to see how the thread is going and the ministrations of having to do that causes the challenges of tracking who said what and where.

In any case, the last comment was for StormTrooper, not Hunter over on the People of Deceipt thread.

Cheerio.

TH forum software
is so crappy that I can't tell if my posts are going up or not.

Giving it up for today...


Someday, maybe TH will hire someone who knows how to run a web site.

Needed:

Snappier software, whatever TH is using, it is a dog.
Preview functionality
HTML markup including blockquoting
subscription to thread
option for flat or threading
avatars
IP tracking to prevent multiple registrations
full posting of article on one page rather than broken into two parts.
point system for tracking offensive posts (like calling columnists pedophiles and such)
Post number tracking
self identification of ideology

Just to name a few


Lions and Rifles
"If a pride of lions could kill every zebra in Africa, it would, and there wouldn’t be any more zebras."

Lions would need the intelligence that humans possess to do such a thing. Now, give lions the intelligence to manufacture a rifle and scope, zebras may very well disappear.
As it stands now, lions stop eating when their appetite is sated. Enough zebra and gazelle remain for the lions to enjoy them for lunch or dinner. Anyone that has seen a film clip of a pride of lions lazing away the day while herds of zebra or gazelle are within striking distance should know this.

"We’re the only species on the planet that’s even capable of thinking about protecting the world around us."

True statement.
It is also true that we are the only species that routinely obliterates or wantonly exploits - much to our detriment - resources that are crucial to our survival, no thanks to our superior intelligence.

The human species is just turning the corner and beginning to understand this. It is up to humans to govern their divinely or evolutionarily gifted intelligence in ways that will abate or diminish
the rape and pillage of natures bounty. We have to stop doing these things simply because our intelligence allows us to. This will be no easy task. It is counter-intuitive to our superior intelligence and knowledge, but it isn't really. It's necessary for our survival, and that is intelligence used in it's best manner.
Use the resources we absolutely need, no more or less, and leave the rest alone.
Like lions do.




Hoist by my own petard?
To hoist, stormy, or to BE hoisted. Methinks you should take a quick refresher spin through "Ye Olde Tome of Salient Zingers." Petard also means to break wind, and there's more than enough flatulence coming from your direct, old girl.


Oops. Apologies, stormy.
That should read "direction" in my last post, old girl, not "direct."

Jim - here is my "liberal" list
Well thanks for asking for a liberal wish list. I am not the spokesman for the “liberal’ agenda, however I am a progressive person who has liberal social and conservative economic views.

(1) Where we keep ourselves safe from attack – by controlling our borders, enforcing laws against employers of illegals, inspecting goods entering the country, focused actions against terrorists and governments that sponsor them, constructively engaging the world to advance, justice, prosperity and security.

(2) Take a common sense approach to health care accepting the reality of rapidly rising heath care costs and the implications to children of lower income families and also the implication of catastrophic illness or accident to those without any or adequate heath insurance

(3) Where we recognize the importance of education to our economic prosperity and work to make quality public education universally available and college education accessible and affordable to all who are qualified.

(4) Deal with the burgeoning incarceration rate that has 25% of the world’s incarcerated in a country with 5% of the world’s population, that incarcerates at a rate 14 times that of many western countries, that has two million incarcerated, that has a third of all black males as incarcerated or previously incarcerated (and thus disenfranchised), that has a broken drug war that is refusing to deal with substance abuse as more of a medical than a criminal problem.

(5) Revise the tax code to unwind the decades of complexity and disincentives to business and workers by eliminating personal and business income tax as its base and replacing it with a balanced formula of property tax, national sales tax, and carbon tax. Return an equitable death tax that allows reasonable inheritance, passing on of small family businesses and farms, and heavily taxes vulgar family fortunes to generations who had no hand in its creation.

Lookout Teddy boy. Stormy's coming.
Stormy writes:

"(5) Revise the tax code to unwind the decades of complexity and disincentives to business and workers by eliminating personal and business income tax as its base and replacing it with a balanced formula of property tax, national sales tax, and carbon tax. Return an equitable death tax that allows reasonable inheritance, passing on of small family businesses and farms, and heavily taxes vulgar family fortunes to generations who had no hand in its creation."

"Vulgar family fortunes" says everything we need to know about Teddy (the swimmer) Kennedy.

I should add that old Joe Kennedy
made his millions from running booze in prohibition days, and Teddy boy's been swimming in it ever since.

stormrunner
Keep setting them up stormy, and we'll keep knocking them down.

"how about this as the idea
Dependence on unreliable foreign energy sources is a threat to our country. Demand for fossil fuels is outpacing supply and world reserves are dwindling. And the burning of fossil fuels pollutes our environment and, according to the best scientific consensus, is altering our protective atmosphere such that historical and projected burning of fossil fuels may have serious global consequences."

Let's see, We wouldn't be dependent on Foreign Oil if you idiots would let us drill in ANWAR, and off the coast of florida.

We pretty much proved wrong that arctic drilling was going to kill off the caribou, they seem to be thriving alongside the alaska pipeline.
The chinese are allowed to drill 60 miles off the florida coast to steal OUR OIL, but We Cant!
Because some rich lefties are afraid they may catch a glimpse of an oil derrick from their penthouse in miami.

OK, I'll admit burning oil is bad for the environment, but do you have a REAL alternative?
Of course not, lefties don'thave ideas, they just know how to tear down those who do.

We could be using clean nuclear plants instead of oil/gas powered to generate electricity, but of course that's not allowed because you idiots think it's just too scary.

When you can show us a REAL alternative, feel free to share, till then STFU

Robert:
Back when I was a general in WW2, hal and I used to like blowing up german soldiers.
Hal inflated them better than me though.




stormrunner
Your complaint of foreign sources of energy would have more weight if the progressive left of this country would admit we are reliant on foreign sources due to their lack of progress. We have sources that we are not allowed to use.

Where is the Dems plan to get off of this? Where's the drilling, the dams, nuclear energy plants, refineries, etc?

No they would rather hold endless investigations and phony hearings, attack private citizens, and waste time in general.

And why in the heck are the Chinese drilling off of our coasts taking our resources?????

If the only plan you guys can come up with is raise taxes on the smokers and the rich for everything then I have a box of rocks that is smarter.

Joe kennedy
Hey motley, Don't forget the fact the Pappa Joe was also a big fan of that "Agrarian Reformer" known as Adolph Hitler. He thought hitler was a great guy.
And teddy has the huevos to accuse bush of fascism.


Robert:
When I was a climatologist, I discovered the source of Global Warming.
Al Gore Farts.

Jackpine Savage
Don't forget all of the Natural Gas and oil off of the coast of California as well.



This issue makes me mad every time I think about it.

Motley Crue
don't forget that little Teddy Kennedy forced through HMO's that caused a lot of the health care problems today.


Problem with health care issue is liberals love to complain about the cost without understanding why it does cost so much.

Motley Crue
Gee I wonder if stormrunner would complain of that so called vulgar wealth if he was the recipient of some.

The rich leftists all complain then go and hide their money in the Cayman's.

Lolo1
I agree 100%.

Uncle teddy the drunk cries about Gore-Bull warming, but then blocks a wind farm off the coast of marthas vineyard. it would be like 20 lies offshore, so no visible from even the highest building on the island, but he wants to "preserve" the natural beauty. Al Bore wants us to all use candles and walk to work to save the earth, while he fles acroiss the room in a private jet to change channels on the TV.

And lefties wonder why we call them Hypocrites.
The deeper in the hole they go the louder they get, and the faster they dig.


Robert: During my career as a Cartologist I proved the world is Flat.
Oh wait that was Hal's head.

stormy writes:
"(4) Deal with the burgeoning incarceration rate that has 25% of the world’s incarcerated in a country with 5% of the world’s population, that incarcerates at a rate 14 times that of many western countries, that has two million incarcerated, that has a third of all black males as incarcerated or previously incarcerated (and thus disenfranchised), that has a broken drug war that is refusing to deal with substance abuse as more of a medical than a criminal problem."
---------------------------

With your kind permission, stormy, old girl, let me point out the fallacy of your statement.

(a) Our incarceration rate is burgeoning because of two things, ie the influx of criminal gangs from south of the border, resulting in higher crime rates, not only here in L.A., but across the American spectrum. And also, once again because of our open borders policy, the huge influx of drugs.

(b) Higher crime rates=higher incarceration rates.
Blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites, known fact, although I don't have figures at the moment to back that up, so I'll let it stand on its own merit. Black on black crime is higher around the world than any other ethnicity. Rwanda as an example. Same thing here in the states. I can't bleed for a race of people who scorn their own kind when lectured about responsibility, Bill Cosby for one, amongst others.

(c) I think prison is preferable for drug dealers and others who would destroy my children and grandchildren, as opposed to what I would do to them if given the chance. Prison or execution, that would be my sentence.


Follow their own advice
I personally think it would be an excellent idea if eco-nut liberals stopped having children . . . there is something to be said for some species extinction.

Greetings Lolo, JPS.
Gee, give old stormy some credit. She was told to go on TH and post a load of liberal garbage, not for any reasonable hope of debate, but just to screw up the works with stupid, dimwit talking points.

TO: Lolo1
Seems the Republicans had six years with complete control of all branches of government to initiate new refinery incentives, begin some new nuclear power plant projects, drill anywhere they wanted – if they could spend a trillion dollars on a preemptive war, surely they had the power to make inroads into some of these conservative wished for energy initiatives.

----

and to Beeblebrox' complaint about the TH software, I'd add -- allowing posters to hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonym handles is cowardly. And a civil discussion in the light of day and with identities exposed would promote accountability and reduce the current coarseness. Most scientific debate is in the light of day, why would anyone of courage not want he same for political debate?

back atcha Motley
I know, but it's just so much fun slapping down uninformed libs who think they're "oh so smart"

Robert: When I worked for Al Gore, I helped him invent the Internet.
Hal: No you didn't, you had 2 of shaggy's dog food cans and a piece of string.

Motley Crue
Greetings.

What I notice with liberals is they want to do all of the blaming while excepting none of the responsibility.

But then again they have always been allergic to responsibility. Perhaps we should come up with a medication for that particular ailment.

stormrunner
Do you have any clue as to how the world works in which you live? Really you ought to change your handle to clueless. then read my post about lack of responsibility to Motley.

Six years? And the Dems have had control of Congress for most of our nation's history clueless! This problem did not happen in six years and will not be solved in six years. Notice I am being kind and not calling you a swear word that begins with dumb, even though it fits.

WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE BLOCKING ON THESE ISSUES THE DEMS HAVE DONE??????

If you had a brain cell you would know having a majority is not enough hence the reason the Dem majority in the Senate gets knocked on it's a** daily. the congressional majority also takes it in the shorts. How do you get dressed every day being that dumb?

OH GEEZ!!!!
Stormrunner I expect you to post your full name and address along with DOB immediately and quit hiding behind your handle.


BTW I have a handle at Huff n' Puff and Democratic Underground doofus!!!

Ever hear of identity theft genius?

Motley Crue & Jackpine Savage
Have you ever listened to the Great One Mark Levin on the radio. One of his favorite tag lines is "Get off the phone you stupid dope!"

We need to start using a version of that line.


Get off the thread you stupid dope!

Good grief the stupidity gets deeper every day. Never realized I would need my hip waders to blog.

Lolo1
Seems Lolo1 that you are incapable of civil discourse but find you must attack the messenger rather than responsibly dealing with the message.

Come on Lolo1, let’s see some intelligent thought, some facts. Any bully can spew invective and go off on unintelligible rants.

Stormrunner
"Seems the Republicans had six years with complete control of all branches of government to initiate new refinery incentives, begin some new nuclear power plant projects, drill anywhere they wanted"

Talk about Stuck on Stupid.

There is a HUGE difference between holding a Majority, and Holding Power. Your argument falls flat on it's face and I can't believe you were dumb enough to even post it.

We haven't had a new nuke plant started since 3 mile island, and as I recall, there were both dems and republicans in charge during that time.

Oh, your line about Carbon Taxes, is even dummer.
Do you know what comes out of your face when you exhale? Carbon Dioxide! So we need to start taxing alBore's face. to stop all those greenhouse gasses from escaping.


Robert: What is the sound of One Hand Clapping?
Shaggy, I know, but Hal yells at me when I do it on the rug.


stormrunner
I have responded intelligently by reminding you of the left's responsibility and role.

When you post something that even has any modicum of intelligence then I will respond intelligently.


I asked you what the Dem plan was and your oh so intelligent response was to blame the Republicans.

And you wonder why I can't take anything you say seriously?

Jackpine Savage
It seems even when we dumb down for her/he/it intelligence level it isn't dumb enough.

It seems the grandkids have arrived.
Therefore, on goes the granddad hat, and no more Mr. Nice guy on TH.

Oh, and stormy, m'dear. Take some basic reading and comprehension courses. Might help. Remember, Liberals can't be all bad, just most of 'em.

Later, y'all.

Letter to the Editor
The problems and the solutions aren't new, here's my thoughts from several years ago.

=========
*Oct 16, 2002

Oil Wells

President Bush could solve the whole Mid-East/Moslem/Arab problem in a moment, with the stroke of a pen, without loss of a single life. Give the order to drill 100 oil wells off the coast of Florida, 100 off the coast of California, and 1,000 in that worthless wasteland called ANWAR.

The Arabs know that without oil exports they will have only sand to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That part of the world lives on the oil they sell. Have you ever seen a Saudi car, an Iraqi TV, an Iranian computer, or have you heard of any product, or any comment or thought of value that ever came from that part of the world?

In “Innocents Abroad” written by Mark Twain 150 years ago, he wrote, “How they hate a Christian in Damascus!” He chronicled the hatred, the filth, the inhuman nature of “those” people, and I have heard of nothing that has changed in the years since.

So don't think this all started because of the Jews and Israel, it's been the Moslem/Arab way of life for a thousand years. When we drill for our own oil, maybe they will stop their inherent hatred and stupidity, so they can eat.

Lolo1
Lolo1 -- when asked I submitted my five point "liberal" agenda -- other than your insipid drooling, what have you contributed? Let's see your five-point list. Let's see your facts (facts are actually different from assertions).

And if you think inflaming the ongoing red/blue divide is patriotic, then you are part of the problem.

lol1,jim
No wonder the progressives fight so hard to have twain's books banned in schools, they're allergic to common sense.

Let's face it, Libs don't want to Solve any real problems, that won't keep their hold on the power they crave. They just point out the problems then blame someone else.

Anyone notice they're still running against GWB, they're so stupid they haven't figured out yet that he isn't in the race.

It's hard to be a conservative, you have to think for yourself and come up with your own conclusions. It's much easier to be a Liberal, just shut off your brain (if you have one) and do what George Soros tells you to do.

And they claim to be the Party of Freedom!


Let's keep it going, stormrunner
stormrunner writes: Saturday, October, 06, 2007 3:03 PM
Jim - here is my "liberal" list
===
Thanks for your response, I am sure that if we could discuss this in detail, we would have many details that are unique to our particular view of the Political landscape.

You said = (1) Where we keep ourselves safe from attack – by controlling our borders, = and to that point I couldn’t agree more. If you came here from across the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Great Lakes, or that muddy stream below Texas, you’re a Wet-Back until you are here legally.

You said=(2) Take a common sense approach to health care accepting the reality of rapidly rising heath care costs = but I must admit I do not have the solution for the costs. I remember when my renters could not pay the rent this month, because they had company who wanted to visit Vegas, so no rent money. If you don’t try, you don’t get any Government help for anything.

You said=(3) Where we recognize the importance of education = and I say let’s do that, but make sure that Liberal Professors, Hollweird, worthless parents, and the sewer sounds of the garbage generation do not spoil the whole idea.

You said=(4) Deal with the burgeoning incarceration rate = and I have long said we didn’t declare war on the couple of hundred Japs who bombed Pearl Harbor, we killed their mothers, their grandmothers, and everyone who backed them. Same for gang members and drug dealers in our country, now - eliminate them and their support.

You said=(5) Revise the tax code to unwind the decades of complexity and disincentives = and as far as this statement goes, yes. But remember Libs have passed most of the unjust difficult tax laws.

Carbon tax is a misstatement for a goof-ball economy, and inheritance tax is wrong if the penalizes successful people. Remember, inheritance money keeps businesses running, and that money is available to supply home loans, car loans, and credit card loans

stormrunner
You didn't submit a plan. You submitted a wish list with a back door critique.

When you submit a plan to implement your said wish list let me know.

Here's an example...

What's your plan to solve the looming Medicare and Social Security Crisis?

I will await your response.

BTW I whole heartedly agree hands down with jim's post to you so that may give you an inkling.

jim
Your letter to the editor was absolutely priceless! Have you sent me that one yet? I can't find it if you did.

Please re-send it!

Was it published?

Innocents Abroad
As one who has lived and worked in the ME I concur with Twain and jim.

Nothing much has changed and you cannot understand it unless you live it.

Jackpine Savage
What is ironic about the left censoring Twain was he was also a liberal!

It is well documented how he despised Teddy Roosevelt.

Some people are .....
Some people are so obviously crazy, senseless, outrageous, ridiculous, fanatcal, etc. that it is hard to understand why anyone pays any attention to their ravings! IMHO!

Stormrunner
I admire your patience and civility. You are paying the price for the usual tactics left wingers use on TH. Give me a shot at your agenda.
1. I agree, and i notice no one else here voiced disagreement. Nice of you to put it first, it is not just very important but must be dealt with soonest.
2. Take a common sense approach to health care noting the cost is rising and children are going without it. I agree completely. We may or may not agree on what a commonsense approach is, but we can get into that later.
3. I agree education is in desperate need of revamp and improvement. I am a retired engineer teaching 7th and 8th math and science as a hobby. If i wanted to work i would be making 5 times as much at my old job. The Public School system is an unaccountable monopoly mired in excess and incompetent management above the principle level. The Federal Dept of Education should be abolished and most state functions. County school boards should be stripped of most decisions and control returned to local schools and parents. I teach at a Public Charter school and we are outperforming the conventional schools in every way, despite the best sabotage efforts of the power structure. Parent choice is the key to better education. You mention "qualified". Where do you stand on AA?
4. Incarceration. A comparatively minor problem at this time, easily avoided by anyone. Just don't break the law. We can go more into why people break the the law in further posts if you like.
5. Taxes and the tax code. I am in near perfect agreement. Simplify is the first step. The code is criminally complex due to scurrilous pols selling tax exemptions to campaign contributors and worse. Pols vote themselves more power and more protection against challenge by those who seek to replace them. This could take some sort of bloodbath, literal or figurative to change, human nature being what it is.

STORMGUTTER

....Do your homework ...before you make easily refutable statements ...

.....A bill to drill in Anwar was introduced in Congress ...the Democrats in the Senate killed it ...ever hear the word Filibuster? ...the Democrats killed all of Bushes and the Republicans initiatives ...only a solid 60% majority works if the opposition wants to stop a Bill ...comprende? .....COLOSSUS

STORMGUTTER

....Do your homework ...before you make easily refutable statements ...

.....A bill to drill in Anwar was introduced in Congress ...the Democrats in the Senate killed it ...ever hear the word Filibuster? ...the Democrats killed all of Bushes and the Republicans initiatives ...only a solid 60% majority works if the opposition wants to stop a Bill ...comprende? .....COLOSSUS

More ignorant absurdity
Jackpine Savage writes (and is parroted by others) “ Let’s see, we wouldn’t be dependent on foreign oil if you idiots would let us drill in ANWAR and off the coast of Florida.”

Show me some numbers instead of empty assertions if you want to prove a point.

While I’m sure you are perfectly content to remain completely uninformed and ignorant, I’m going to try to help bring you to some level of understanding about how ridiculously delusional this comment really is.

Just follow this simple line of reasoning

Determine the following:

1) U.S. demand requires how much petroleum daily?
2) U.S. imports how much petroleum daily?
3) How much estimated recoverable oil is located in ANWR?
4) How much estimated recoverable oil is off the florida coast
5) What is the estimated daily production rate of both of these sources at peak capacity
6) how long will it take to achieve peak capacity?
7) factor in the slowing rate of production of current U.S. oil fields and increased demand by the time the new oil fields are brought online.

Take the daily total U.S. demand for petroleum, subtract the daily U.S. production including the ANWR and Florida coast, and what do you get? Hey I’m feeling generous and I will spot you the first two.

Sourced from: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

1)20,802,000 barrels daily
2)12,549,000 barrels daily

And if you do some actual research, instead of mindlessly ingesting whatever snake oil Limbaugh or his ilk are selling , you will find that the addition of ANWR and Florida Gulf production will not even come close to weaning us off foreign oil. It may at best reduce our dependence from 60% to 50%.














campagnolo
Ok, assuming you are right, tell me how we get off foreign oil.

What choices do we have?

1) Ethanol, Although I realize it's a temporary boon to the farmers, ethanol is not the answer.
At least not ethanol from grain. It costs just as much energy to grow the grain, truck it, and refine it into ethanol, as it creates. Plus cars on ethanol run 18% less efficiently, Creating more CO2. (Al gore won't like that)
Our food prices are already going up, (along with Beer prices) because of the competition for grain.

2) Solar, Far too expensive for large scale use. The technology just isn't there yet.

3) Wind, It's great if you're on a mountaintop, or in the plains, but large areas of the country don't have enough sustained winds to generate power. Plus if you've ever been around a big windmill, they're Loud.

4) Geothermal, I don't know about you, but I don't have a volcano in my back yard.

And, you still didn't address the fact that China, right now, is drilling in cuban waters 60 miles off the coast of florida, yet we can't drill within 150 miles. Now you gotta admit that's just plain stupid. And I don't care if there's only 10 years worth of oil in the arctic, that's 10 years we'd have to research some real alternatives.

So what are your solutions?
Burn candles and ride bikes to work?




Robert: I once wrote a book called Inside the Mind of Robert Robert.
No company would publish 500 blank pages though.

TO: Savage99
Thank you, I think I see some common ground – and an opportunity for discussion rather than disrespect.

I wish there were a side bar on here, as I’d like to talk to you about your teaching experience, of which I really commend you.

I also don’t think our high incarceration rate is just a pat on the back for how good we are at rounding up criminals. I think it is a measure of both criminality in our society and our inability to deal with its root causes. An inability to solve recidivism, and to deal with the environments that many children grow up in that promotes criminal activity.

Incarceration deals with symptoms – it does not alleviate the suffering of victims – both those who are transgressed and the even the families and communities of those who are incarcerated. A criminal/justice industry that has such a vested interest primarily in incarceration may not be the better answer

My liberal side does wrestle with the practical and the hard-nosed while at the same time can see the trends, accept reality, and envision better approaches. But none can come about without reaching common ground – and a respectful and civil discussion is how that is reached. Thank you for reaching across the divide.

globull warming
exactly who is dumber, alldull and all the blather he expells but doesn't understand or those dumb enough to believe in all he claims as truth. It appears the only one who has profitted from the globull waqrming nonsense is all dull. He picked up $100,000. speaking here in arizona and who knows how many other mega thousands speaking around the world. He has sold books and got thousands to prostrate themselves in front of their new messiah. He has perpetrated a carbon offset scam so his airhead followers like dicaprio can fly around in their corporate jets while planting a few treees as though that will make a diference. Other knuckleheads like robt. kennedy jr. turn against cape cod wind farms because uncle teddy doesn't want to view them while he is getting on aother drunk at the kennedy compound.But all dull and his acolytes simply cannot understand that humans have solved a myriad of problems throughout their history and will certainly find ways to continue to protect the environment even though alldull tells his idiot followers we aren't cap[able of solving the problem, unless of course we turn to him as the environment's savior

Tucker forgets
In his rant against the human element being at the root of global warming, Tucker suggests that instead of causing our demise, humans are capable of thinking our way out of disasterous outcome.

But he is forgetting the ONE strike we humans have against us in achieving the goals of outwitting annihilation: Republicans.

Whuh? Let's be serious, shall we?
"It really may be impossible to mock liberals. No matter how absurd a proposal seems, a liberal can always pretend it’s serious and even take it one step further." What on EARTH does this have to do with the issues at hand?

Overpopulation isn't a liberal myth to help kill off all the wondrous entrepreneurs, freemarketers and whatnot that are supposed to use their Invisible Hands to save the planet. It's a commonsense observation that the planet has a finite carrying capacity, and we would all be better off with fewer of us -- not zero, as the author seems to content -- riding along, and using up all those resources it took eons to lay down.

Humans are only solving problems humans create. And we're only doing it to help ourselves. Please, let's be real about our own self-interest. And about the supposed "liberals" who want to kill the rest of us off, who fail to exist.

afriKa
Kodos -- excellent post and congratulations on your insight and clarity on this issue.
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