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Thursday, June 12, 2008
Rich Lowry :: Townhall.com Columnist
John McCain: Let Them Eat Honor
by Rich Lowry
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The price of everything, not just driving, is going up in the era of $130-a-barrel oil, but our presidential candidates have a hopelessly thumbless grasp of pocketbook politics.

Their mutual slogan could be "Let them eat abstractions." Barack Obama famously couldn't connect with working-class voters in the primaries, offering them an airy diet of hope and change. John McCain rose on his personal honor, which is why on energy he's fumbling away the GOP's best domestic political opening in years.

For a politician whose forte has never been domestic policy, McCain has a peculiar taste for complex, verging on unworkable, regulatory schemes -- from campaign-finance reform, to comprehensive immigration reform, to a cap-and-trade system limiting carbon emissions.

The attraction for McCain of these plans isn't their intricacies, but their symbolism. Campaign-finance reform demonstrated his incorruptibility; comprehensive immigration reform his belief in an America open to all comers; cap-and-trade his commitment to fight global warming.

These positions were all the more alluring in that they placed McCain in opposition to what he considered the loose ethics, nativism and head-in-the-sand denial of global warming of his own party. They marked him as a bold reformer refusing to compromise himself: Here I stand, I can do no other.

Without this branding, McCain wouldn't have a chance this year. But a gestural politics of personal honor has its limits -- namely that there's very little in it for anyone besides you. McCain's other domestic crusade has been pounding his fellow politicians for giving constituents what they want, but shouldn't get: earmarked spending that isn't justified by the general welfare.

If this is all very admirable, it's not a good fit for the public mood when rising energy prices mean that the average worker's wages are falling. For many families, this is a crisis. Besides a summer holiday from the federal gas tax that would save the average family an estimated $30 this summer, McCain's signature energy initiative -- cap-and-trade -- would increase energy prices.

Live by the gesture, die by the gesture. From there, his position on energy only gets messier. He opposes drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, another position undertaken largely for reasons of self-image -- as the Teddy Roosevelt-style conservationist defending the country's big open spaces.

At a town-hall meeting in Philadelphia, McCain said he could no sooner drill in ANWR than in the Grand Canyon. This is like comparing a roadside flea market to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Five million people a year visit the Grand Canyon, whereas 1,000 visit ANWR. Why would anyone want to go? It's a frozen wasteland during the winter and a mosquito-infested bog during the summer.

McCain opposes drilling off the shores of Florida and California as well, saying that the states should be able to decide. But Alaska desperately wants to drill in ANWR. Its opinion apparently doesn't count. In an interview on the "Today" show, McCain ridiculously held out the prospect that advances in alternative energy might lower the price of gas by November. He's touting fanciful revolutionary breakthroughs within months without acknowledging the real technological advances that make it possible to drill with minimal environmental impact.

McCain calls energy independence a national-security issue, but rules out obtaining here in the U.S. more of the most efficient form of energy readily available. By his own logic, the national-security candidate is putting aesthetic considerations -- the sheer unsightliness of drilling, even though most people will never see it -- over security.

The dirty secret is that, as a believer that global warming is a dangerous crisis, McCain should want gas prices to be high. Obama has been more forthright about this, saying that current prices may make for a "more efficient energy policy," although he would have preferred a more "gradual adjustment" in gas prices. In other words, slow-motion pain at the pump.

The McCain campaign tried to pounce on this, but how can you attack someone for positions you share?

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About The Author
Rich Lowry is author of Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years .
 
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Shameless Fraud
McCain can not connect the dots between supply and demand for oil, domestic need and domestic extraction. He puts out feel-good soundbytes to make the issue go away.

Same thing with immigration, free speech, the Savings and Loan debacle.

He is devoid of principle. He doesn't even wear a glove when reaching across the aisle.

Want $10 a gallon Gas
Keep electing Democrats!

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans:91%Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

McCain's Concern
with the issues you mention in this article are not based on actual improvements for the country's energy prices. They are based on his desire to become POTUS. Reality no longer matters in politics, perception does.
He said he believed in, ran on, and voted based on conservative principles for decades.
Now it is difficult to differentiate his plans from the Democrats.'
Is McCain a liberal convert or only a poser who wants to be President?


John McCain
I watched John McCain's'Town Hall'meeting this afternoon. It was hard to watch. He is trying to please too many different factions.

He boasted about 'reaching across the aisle' to work with Russ Feingold on campaign financing and Ted Kennedy on the amnesty bill.

Does he still not care that these are two of the reasons conservatives have many misgivings about him? Evidently,not.

Every time I see and hear him,I have to keep reminding myself that "he's better than BHO","at least he is not anti-American,like BHO".

When will he say or do something that makes me WANT to support him,instead of feeling like I HAVE to?


VERGING ON UNWORKABLE?
Rich, you are an optimist. I admire that quality. Excellent column. McCain is tone deaf/too stubborn for his or the countries own good and a terrible campaigner. I admit I am not going to vote for him, but I don't recall a candidate that came across as poorly and seemed so unprepared. Except maybe Obama without his teleprompter. Anyone recall other really poor campaigners? If so, please remind me. McCain is just really awful, and I'm just talking about his campaigning. Nevermind his policies for this post.

What plan helps the economy?

McCain’s Tax Plan Aids Wealthy, Says Group

What plan helps the economy?

WP-A detailed analysis of the candidates’ tax plans confirms one of Barack Obama’s top arguments against John McCain: the Arizona senator’s proposals would offer substantial benefits to wealthy Americans.

An analysis of both campaigns proposals by the Washington-based, nonpartisan Tax Policy Center found that for people with incomes between $66,354 and $111,645, Obama’s proposals would cut their taxes by more than $1000, compared to around $300 under McCain’s plan. But for Americans with incomes above $603,402, Obama would raise their taxes dramatically, by more than $115,000 a year, while McCain would cut them by $45,000.

“The Obama tax plan would make the tax system significantly more progressive by providing large tax breaks to those at the bottom of the income scale and raising taxes significantly on upper-income earners,” the group concludes. “The McCain tax plan would make the tax system more regressive…. It would do so by providing relatively little tax relief to those at the bottom of the income scale while providing huge tax cuts to households at the very top of the income distribution.”

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/mccains-tax-plan-a ids-wealthy-says-group

Conservatives
Are you excited about McCain? Me neither. But why sit around moaning and groaning while convincing yourself to hold your nose and vote for McCain? Why not abandon McCain completely and instead contribute to and volunteer for good conservative Senators and Reps? And vote third-party for president.

The Republicans in Congress will not fight McCain on his disastrous energy and global warming hoax policies. They will fight against the same policies if Obama is the president proposing them.

The only thing that worries me is that Obama is so outrageously far-left that, even in a favorable year for Democrats, he could lose in another landslide like Mondale did.


Stop the knee-jerk "party loyalty" reactions. And don't give me the "lesser of two evils" speech. Either one of these liberals could devastate this country. The only strategy that makes any sense for conservatives is to oppose McCain and work our butts off to ensure a sufficient Republican minority in Congress to stalemate President Obama.

If you just want to dismiss my argument out of hand, then don't pretend you're using reason to do so. If you want to be logical and reasonable, then you must engage my argument and soundly rebut it. ("Moderates" and liberals need not reply; this challenge is for real conservatives.)

Rowley
I watched it also. One thing about him he didn't come off as a tongue tied boob like Obama did in W.V. I heard that on Rush and it was painful, gave me an earache.

I know what you mean, if the stubborn coot would
accept the fact that Americans want us to DRILL and recover our own oil and campaign on that, it's a winner. He says the oil if finite..huh?
Who sez? Even if it is, it will last for the decades we need to create alternative fuels. And all this baloney about oil is so bogus. It's not just for fuel but there are so many every day consumer products that use fossil based chemicals to create them. From cell phones to fabrics. This propaganda is dependent on a stupid populace that only thinks
the oil we use goes into gasoline, and if there ever came a day when there were no cell phones,
the politicians would face the wrath of no only adults but every pimply faced teen. (Not that I don't think the demise of the cell phone would be such a bad thing.)

JimP
Rudy and Fred. I think they ran such pathetic campaigns on purpose. My theory is they were only in it for the purpose of splitting up the vote, essentially blocking left and right for McCain.

VAPAT
You may be correct. I haven't given that idea any thought before. My only point to Patti was that Mac wasn't the only one who could win this time. See ya later on other posts.

Lestat,
I am with you !

Tea Party
You are right.Everything and everyone in this country would come to a screeching halt without oil.

For the life of me,I cannot understand these people who have let us get where we are when it does not have to be this way.

We just have to sit back and watch the politicians destroy our livlihood. I wonder what or who is behind it. It is not an accident,that's for sure. It is a master plan to bring us down.

I heard BHO's ramblings on Rush's show,too. He stumbled and never did get it straight. Without a script,he is lost.

BAMAddox
Thanks! That's one with me so far. I know others, such as the vocal mick and BrianR, are with me. Let's hear from some REAL CONSERVATIVES who think McCain's goal of 70% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050 will not decimate our economy and ruin our nation.

We are supposed to be
so afraid of Obama that we will all vote for McCain. If the Republican party was really afraid of Obama, they never would have nominated McCain. I'm tired of the Republican party playing me like a pawn. You made your bed, now sleep in it.

Lestat... absolutely

McRINO's an absolute dolt on this issue (as with most issues, frankly).

We have a foreign policy driven by our dependance on foreign oil, while at the same time we have the capability of being energy independant utilizing our own reserves. That makes absolutely zero sense to me at all. If we were energy independant, we could basically just flip off the entire Middle East, instead of being dragged into their endless dramas.

Oil shale: we have 1-2 TRILLION barrels in proven reserves, the largest proven reserves in the world, enough to make us independant into the next century. Canada's development of its Athabasca oil sands has proven the technology sound and economically viable.

We can't drill in the 2,000 acres of the 1.9 MILLION acre ANWR.

We can't drill offshore; meanwhile, China among other nations do so freely, right in the Gulf of Mexico.

We haven't built a new refinery in over 2 DECADES.

I mean, really... what the bloody hell?

Further, Lestat

you are absolutely correct that "Cap and Trade" is an absolute economy killer for this country.

Therer is no substantive difference between McRINO and Obambi other than on Iraq; they argue over matters of degree.

Better that McRINO loses -- hopefully in a landslide -- so that the GOP may finally get the message to which they've been totally deaf, even in spite of the butt-kicking of 2006; and which will further create the possibility of a mid-term (2010) resugence of conservatism in at least the House, a la 1994/Clinton/Gingrich.


And one last thought

How many people does McRINO think are going to be interested in voting for him when it's costing them 80 bucks to fill their gas tank?

That won't hurt Obambi; his natural supporters believe in high gas prices to enforce tree-hugging and driving roller-skate-sized cars and riding bicycles.

But hard-working conservatives do NOT like this at all, when it's so easily solved by simply saying "Stop" to all this enviro-craziness.

Like Nancy said, "Just say No"

BTW, conservatives
I'm not trying to bully anyone. I want you to think this through carefully. There's no shame in changing your mind. Early in the primary season I was arguing here that conservatives should lay off McCain because they risked souring other conservatives against him if he became the nominee. Unfortunately, I didn't know just how bad McCain was. I didn't know about his energy and AGW policies. I didn't know about his class-warfare rhetoric opposing the Bush tax cuts. In short, I didn't realize he was a closet liberal just acting as conservative as he had to in order to get elected in Arizona.

No Choice But No Drill and No Drill?
Please! Don't "Just say No!" voters!

Say "Chuck Baldwin, Constitution Party candidate!"

Conservatives should know by now that the Republican Party is no longer the Party of Reagan - and they are not welcome, except on election days!

Check out http://www.constitutionparty.com and http://www.BALDWIN2008.com - there is an alternative that WILL DRILL, WILL SECURE BORDERS, WILL DENY AMNESTY - AND MORE!

Have you noticed that no conservative" leaders" will even mention CHUCK BALDWIN? OR CONSTITUTION PARTY?

It is only the third largest U.S. political party, but apparently our so-called "leaders" can't count past "2"!

Sadly, not even Ann Coulter.... She did say "Bob Barr" once though!

gf
For the hundredth time,Republicans,alone,did not nominate McCain.

They participated in his nomination,but so did many others because they knew they could demonize him and that conservatives would not support him.

Well,lo and behold,the liberals were correct. He is being demonized,but the liberals are not the only ones doing it. Just like they predicted,conservatives will not support him.

No matter how we got McCain...we have him now. If you don't support him, then you are supporting Obama. Why not go ahead and start speaking and campaigning for Obama?


Why is it so hard for anti-McCainers to see? We conservative voters will never get what we want by supporting BHO. The Republican Party will be history,especially conservative Republicans after the Democrat takeover.


Half a loaf is better than no loaf. We may be able to take this half-loaf and make it work for us. With Obama we will have nothing.

Go ahead and vote for Baldwin, Barr, Paul or whoever you please, but for all intents and purposes, you are voting for Barack Hussein Obama. A sad situation.








3rd party 4th party.
A vote for either is a loser. It favors Obama.

It's total surrender. Just say "I Quit".

You can spend the next four years bragging, I didn't vote for either one. Rah, Rah, yippee. Have a sticker made put it on you car in the driveway, you won't be driving anywhere.

Maybe if there is a dem president, I won't have to listen to Pelosi, Reid, Durbin or the creep from NY.spew their nonsense every night.

The snitches will be out in full force, just like the commies, he used too much gas, his home is too comfortable, he is no comrade send him away. Chilling isn't it.

Can Any one explain to this old coot
That Anwarr is a frozen waste land, there is no trees for 700 miles and very few animals. How can he even say pristine when he has never seen it. He's just been told, by who, Al Gore. Sorry gang but I can not vote for a fool who has been in DC as long as he and does not even know, he is suppose to represent the people, not exploit them and defend the constition not corrupt it.

Rowly
"Half a loaf is better than no loaf."
And a half rotten apple is still rotten.
I don't buy rotten apples.
Old Lady's wise words "I cannot vote for a fool who has been in DC as long as he and does not even know, he is suppose to represent the people, not exploit them and defend the constition not corrupt it" sum it up well.

I Would Add,
he knows, he isn't concerned about the people or the constitution. He is focused on himself and his place in history as POTUS.
That explains why he is all over the place.
On some issues he is liberal, on others he claims to be conservative. He is willing to assume whatever position will gain him favor with the media nd the jellyfish in the middle.
He isn't a maverick, he is a panderer.

Sorry, Rowly

I've been hearing that same "half a loaf" metaphor for almost two decades here in Leftifornia, and it's led us to a GOP Governator who is a flaming liberal, who proposes his own incredibly Leftist agenda (UHC, state "global warming" initiatives, raising taxes, etc.), caucuses with the Sacramento Dems, and treats the few remaining conservatives like they have rabies.

I absolutely WILL NOT participate in repeating the same grotesque error on the national level. I love my country too much for that.

PS, Rowly

If, as you say, the Republican Party "will be history", I say "It's about time". Let them go the way of the WHIG Party (which was replaced by the GOP). They've come to stand for nothing; the Dem-Lite Party.

Maybe it's time to burn the house down to the ground in hope something more meaningful will arise from the ashes like a Phoenix.

BrianR
Brian,you and I have exchanged several posts and I always read yours and respect your opinions greatly.

I agree with you wholeheartedly up to a certain point.Everything you say about RINO'S is true.I wish they could be purged from us or us from them.

My only tired old point is; it is too late this election to change it. Like changing horses in the middle of the stream.

Why not accept what we can get this year and start working for a third party,or remaking the Republican Party? You can't do in in CA.,but it could be done nationally.

I am afraid with the Fairness Doctrine and conservative voices shut down,there will be no way to ever change our present party. Obama and a veto-proof congress can and I believe,will do that.

Whatever you and others do,we will all live with it. I will vote against Obama out of total fear of what the socialist/Marxist agenda will do to us.I do appreciate your opinions,though.

McCain Is Unacceptable

When I heard McCain's Hispanic Outreach guy was none other than Smiling Juan Hernandez, I knew John McCain has heard nothing we have had to say.


Smiling Juan Hernadez
We know who he is, we know his loyalties are to Mexico, we know he wants to erase our borders and immigration laws.

JOHN MCCAIN, YOU NEED A NEW HEARING AID

Smiling Juan Hernandez
In case you don't know him, he used to work for the Mexican govt., lately he has been shilling for "rights" for illegal aliens in this country. He has said he wants Mexicans to remain Mexicans even if they are living here. His loyalties are to Mexico, not U.S.



Questions for illegal alien apologists like John McCain:

Why does The National Council of the Race (la raza in spanish) and the Chamber of Commerce get to negotiate a "Comprehensive Shafting of The American Citizens" behind closed doors? Since when does an organization representing foreign nationals breaking our laws get to rewrite our immigration laws to suit the lawbreakers? Isn't this akin to allowing NAMBLA to rewrite our laws regarding child predators? Or allowing organized crime syndicates to rewrite racketeering, gambling, prostitution, and extortion laws?

We The People are being told by our representatives that we should sit down and shut up while they invite in the entire world. We The People should get some say in this matter. Another amnesty will set off a stampede like we have never seen before. There is not much time to save our country. All the power and money are on the side of shoving this amnesty down our throats. The RNC wants an amnesty candidate, don't vote for one.

BAMAddox
I agree with you,also. He should know better. I have come to one conclusion.He knows we (conservatives)will not vote for Obama,under any circumstances.

He thinks we will vote for him out of fear of Obama. He is trying to appeal to moderates,liberals and independents,who actually helped him be the nominee.

By doing that,he is alienating any conservatives who are planning to vote for him out of fear of Obama. I will vote against Obama even if it means voting for McCain.


No, Rowly, that's

exactly my point. EVERY election is always "the end of the world and civilization as we know it", and we're always supposed to wait for the NEXT time.

There never IS a next time, and that's the problem.

In 2006, it was all the hysteria about "Speaker Pelosi" and "Majority Leader Reid" causing the Universe to implode. Well, you know what? They've been pretty harmless; can't get a damned thing done, Congress's approval ratings are in the tank, and it turned out to be a lot of Chicken Littling about not much at all.

If Obambi's elected, maybe the Congressional GOPers will find their gonads and their principles again; don't forget the first mid-terms in Clinton's first term in 1994 (which has all now been squandered). The GOP always seems to play better defense than offense.

But if McRINO's elected, who's going to say "no" to him? After all, he's one of "our guys", and the leader of the party.

It'll be just like Schwarzenegger and California, writ large. A bloody disaster.


PS, Rowly

I forgot to mention, I always read your posts with respect also, and have the same for your opinion, though we disagree.

At least you DISCUSS, rather than rant.

That's a lot more than can be said for a lot of the McCain supporters here.

PS, Rowly

I forgot to mention, I always read your posts with respect also, and have the same for your opinion, though we disagree.

At least you DISCUSS, rather than rant.

That's a lot more than can be said for a lot of the McCain supporters here.

BrianR
A veto-proof congress and Obama is my fear. Maybe the calamity I invision will not come true. Let's hope not. Also,I am a 'reluctant voter',
not ncessarily a 'supporter'.

Long Shot
Granted it would be a long long shot, but wouldn't it be possible to overturn McCain's presumed coronation at the Republican convention? After all he didn't receive more than about a third of the primary votes anywhere, and that was with the help of some Democrat voters.

Yes, Mel, it would

If he didn't win on the first ballot, the convention could then be opened for further balloting/brokering.


Rowly
First, ditto to BrianR's respect for you.


You wrote:
"Why not accept what we can get this year and start working for a third party,or remaking the Republican Party?"

I answered that question in my first post:
"The Republicans in Congress will not fight McCain on his disastrous energy and global warming hoax policies. They will fight against the same policies if Obama is the president proposing them."

We won't get much of anything good with McCain, but we will get a lot that's bad. The only way to stop the disastrous carbon reduction plan is to let Obama propose it so the Republican minority will block it. They will not block it when President McCain pushes it.

I laid out the best strategy for conservatives this election. What part of it do you think is wrong?

Rowly
I've been waiting for someone to respond that McCain will fight the War on Terrorists harder than Obama. Maybe, but what does that mean? Iraq is more or less won. No president will stop Iran's nuclear program because the atmosphere has been so poisoned by the MSM and the Democrats against war. And what good would it do to defeat the terrorists while destroying our own economy? How long could we maintain any war effort without our industrial economy?

Some might think the Supreme Court appointments will be important. But who is likely to retire? The oldest and frailest Justices are liberal activists. If Obama wins, he will replace liberals with liberals. The liberals will not retire if McCain wins, hoping instead to survive until the next Democrat administration. Even if one dies, McCain is more likely to appoint another Souter or Kennedy than a Scalia or Alito. And the lower courts will not change much either way. The Dems will obstruct McCain's appointments just as they have Bush's.

What is it that we get with McCain?

If McCain loses
It will not be attributed to his not being conservative enough thus bringing on a rightwing revolutionary return to true conservatism.
It will be attributed to an overwhelming mandate for leftist policies, an hunger for "change" and the "inspiration" brought on by Mr. Obama.
Fool yourselves all you want.

lestat
You asked me to respond to your first post. I did not mention McCain in regards to the war. That is not my fear about not supporting him.

Please read my posts to BrianR.Those are my reasons to vote against Obama. A vote for anyone else is a vote for Obama. Tell me how it isn't.

Thank you for your reply.

Rowly
I read all your posts. You did the same thing I see all the time. You avoided my arguments. You changed the subject. You did not explain what McCain gives us that is so great that it offsets all the bad policies he will push through Congress with the liberal Democrat majority. You did not explain why you think the Republicans in Congress will fight McCain's bad policies as hard (if at all) as they will the same policies if Obama is the president proposing them. Or, as BrianR put it, the Republicans play better defense against Democrat presidents and congressional majorities than offense. BrianR responded to all your points and you had no sound rebuttals. It all comes down to the simplistic fear that Obama would be worse than McCain. It's simplistic because you're not considering the complexities of how our government works, which I have explained to you.

I was not attributing the war argument to you. I was throwing that out there in case you or others believe it mitigates McCain's other disastrous policies and proclivities. I probably shouldn't have used your name as the subject of that post.

Rowly
I will vote FOR the candidate who most closely represents my ideology.

A vote for Obama is a vote for Obama. A vote for McCain is a vote for McCain. A vote for a third party candidate is a vote for a third party candidate. It is simply illogical to say that a vote for a third party candidate is a vote for Obama. It's political rhetoric, propaganda, a lie. If I don't vote at all, is that a vote for Obama? Half a vote? That would make counting ballots very tricky business.

Besides, I am open about my preference for Obama over McCain for the strategic reasons stated above. In chess, it is sometimes better to sacrifice a piece or pawn to gain a positional advantage. Same concept applies to McCain, except he isn't really on "our" side (the conservative side).

But that's really secondary. My real preference would be that a third party candidate wins. I realize that is unlikely, but that is only true because there are so many people like you who can see only R and D. Fine. Vote how you want. But don't claim that you're following the best strategy for advancing conservatism, and therefore the best interests of the country. I have laid out the best strategy and you have rejected it without refuting a single component of it. Your response is that my strategy gets Obama elected. That's exactly my point!

Obama is worse than McCain. No disagreement here. But is the country better off with McCain or Obama as president? That's the more important question that my strategy addresses and your posts do not.

Yep, Lestat

I agree totally. Particularly with the chess analogy; I really like that.


lestat
How many times must I say it before you understand? Either McCain or Obama will be president,as it stands now. I emphatically do not want Obama to be my president !!!Period.!!!

I have not lauded McCain's credentials for president,but as I said several times...HE IS NOT OBAMA !!!

There are many who feel as you do. More power to them. I am tired of the subject.I want no more of it.


That is my argument.Now,you vote any way you like and I will do the same.I have said all I intend to say on the subject.

rowly
You've fought the good fight. They're stuck on the idea that if they vote for some 3rd candidate, and Obama wins, somehow...magically...in some alternate logic universe...people are going to say, 'boy I better get more conservative'.
In reality, they'll say 'boy, I better move to the left if I want to get elected.'
Sigh.

Well, Sunthe1

Could happen, in which case this country's doomed, the Great Experiment is over, and it ended in Failure.

That's pretty simple.

You're simply willing to be the frog sitting there in the pot while the water gets hotter and hotter.

I'd rather do something to turn off the burner.


Debatable Choice
I think there are valid arguments for both voting for McCain or not voting for him. I currently plan to vote third party. I do not view that as a "throw-a-way". At some point conservative have come up with a viable alternative. McCain, although short-term might be argued as slightly less bad, long-term is just going to wreck more damage. He has shown zero inclination of caring for conservatism, save for a very few narrow areas. He is not going to change the direction of the Republican party. Republicans in Congress, again with a few exceptions, are pretty much in the same boat. We need a dramatic reversal of the slide to the left, not a just few taps on the brake pedal.

Rowly and SunThe1
That's fine, but there are others whom I want to convert to my side.

It took me many years to break myself out of the habit of thinking that electing any given Republican is always preferable to electing a Democrat. But after I did, I demonstrated that I do not reflexively vote against any Republican who is too liberal or "moderate" for my taste.

In 2004, I supported Pat Toomey over Arlen Specter in the primary - with my money, my time, and my vote. But when Specter won the primary, I supported him in the general election. I reasoned that even though Specter is pro-choice and would likely gain the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee, he probably would not obstruct Bush's appointments. (He fulfilled that expectation.) I also decided it was more important to ensure continued GOP control of Congress than to purge a liberal Republican from the Senate. If the Democrats won the majority, they would give the chairmanship to a liberal who is not beholden to President Bush in any way and who would obstruct (as the Dems have since Jan 2007). And they would reject many originalist nominees who managed to get out of committee.

I'm not a "take my marbles and go home if I don't get my way" type. I'm focused on what's best for our country in the long term. I think you guys are being short-sighted and not appreciating overarching strategic considerations.

SunThe1
You offer nothing but an assertion. Let me give examples.

The misery of the Carter years and his defeatest rhetoric led the country to reject the Democrats and elect Reagan. In 1994, the country was appalled by Hillary-Care, a blatant socialist power grab, and chose to give Gingrich's Contract with America a chance. The Republican Congress and the vocal electorate forced Clinton towards the right. The same will happen during the Obama administration.

As BrianR wrote, I'm not ready to accept defeat and fight over the scraps from the GOP "moderates" table. I think it's still possible to energize this country to restore the free constitutional republic as it was founded. It will be a long fight, but it's worth it.

SunThe1
I can understand anyone wishing for a better candidate for us. I certainly do. Barring an intervention by Divine Providence,it won't happen.

I hope I am wrong about the damage that can happen with all four branches of Government in the hands of the left. I don't think so.

Thank you for your kind words. I always like your posts.They are always thoughtful.


Rowly
Many of my friends and family are, like you, voting for McCain out of fear. I continue to agree with, Brian, Lestat, and others here that to do so is accepting defeat for the country just as an Obama win is a defeat for the country.
I prefer the fast acting poison of straight up liberalism rather than the slow bleed of McCain's stealth liberalism. I hear with respect what you are saying and appreciate the discussion even if I cannot agree.
To other Town Hall posters I would like to say thank you for the things I have learned from you and the many laughs and tears we have shared. Reading the posts here is an indication that this country is still great because of people like you.
Now that is real hope!

BAMAddox
You are too kind.As I said,I can understand anyone not having the stomach for McCain. Believe me,he is making it hard for me,too.

I still believe with him,we stand a small chance for reform.We stand NO chance the other way. Obama is already making rules for us to obey. I worry where his allegiances lie.

Someone said congress would not go along with Obama in what he is promising. A few Blue Dogs,may not,but they cannot be counted on.

If they have a veto-proof congress,they will drive the stake in our hearts for good,I'm afraid. That is their aim.

I pray McCain will do something in the next five minths to change some minds.So far he has not.....have a good evening.

Rowly, good convo

A couple of things to consider.

Since FDR, only ONE Dem President has successfully run for re-election; Clinton.

Since FDR, only ONE GOPer has UNSUCCESSFULLY run for re-election: Bush 1, when he ran not as Reagan 3, but as his own RINO self.

This conflict between conservatives and Country Club/Rockefeller Repubs isn't anything new. It's been going on for over 50 years.

Historically, the GOP takes power, gets sloppy and complacent, takes conservatives for granted just like the Dems do with the NAACP, they have to be corrected, we get one term of a liberal Dem Prez, and everyone walks off into the sunset licking Sno-Cones until next time.

Same old, same old.

Time for the Dems to take their turn, that's all.



BrianR
One last post before I turn in tonight.
As I read yours and some other's post,I clearly see I am far less educated,travelled ,etc.than some of you. I am a simple person,but I love my country and I am afraid for it. Very afraid.
In all the elections in the past,and I have participated in many,I submit,we have NEVER had a person like Obama,with the baggage he has and the people who are backing him.

They are anti-American and have programmed and polished him for this 'take-over'. I firmly believe it. I hope I am wrong. I pray I am.


Rowly, don't even START down that road

All I write is my opinion, and my reasoning. I control one vote: mine.

Your opinion is just as valid and worth as much as mine, and you ALSO totally control your own vote.

My goal here is to give people something to think about while having fun debating politics, because I'm a junkie. Nothing more.

Education level, travel experience, that kind of BS: meaningless. Common sense, values, logic... those have value.

I've known a lot of extremely well educated dolts. I've known blue collar wise men. Don't let the superficial crap intimidate you. That would be a waste.

I hope you read this before you totally tune out, my friend.

Brian/Lestat/Bamaddox
I do respect your views, and will even admit that you may be right.

Yes, after misery of Carter we got Reagan.
But that was followed by Clinton.
Yes, we got a republican congress in '94.
And a democratic one in 06.

On the other hand, while I don't agree with all of Sen Mccain's positions, I do not find him quite as objectionable as you do.

We have military who have fought too long and hard in Iraq to throw it aside, as I believe Mr. Obama would do, and Mr. Mccain most certainly would not.
We have troops in harm's way in Afghanistan.
If for no other reason, I could not vote for Obama.

Mr. McCain will not make naif deals with Iran in exchange for acting nice for awhile.
3, maybe 4 SCOTUS nominations.
Some of the damage this guy does would be very long term.
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