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Monday, April 21, 2008
Rich Lowry :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Wages of Polygamy
by Rich Lowry
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Members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Texas can be forgiven for thinking they are being punished for making just another "lifestyle choice."

The compound of the polygamous sect -- a breakaway from the Mormon Church, which long ago forswore plural marriage a century ago -- was raided by Texas authorities, who took more than 400 children from their parents. The group's family tree is so opaque that DNA tests are under way to determine which children belong to whom.

"It's just like in any society in America," one woman at the ranch told a reporter, by way of explaining the confusion over the children. "A mother might have been in two or three relationships, and a child may be confused about what name to give."

There's some truth underneath that self-justification. Family relationships in America have become broken and convoluted -- although nothing on the order of the bizarre sect led by Warren Jeffs, now serving time for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old cousin. But with so many people divorced or having children out of wedlock, it's easier to elide questions of family structure and focus on child abuse.

That's the grounds on which the state of Texas moved on the FLDS ranch and confiscated all the children. The problem is that Texas authorities admit that the children were well cared for. The young children and the boys were in no danger. It's only the teenage girls who needed rescuing. That's because it's not child abuse that is the sin of the FLDS, but polygamy.

A polygamous society is inevitably going to tend toward the abuses of Yearning for Zion Ranch. This is why even if Texas went too far and probably will have to give most of the kids back, it acted out of the right motives. Polygamy is fundamentally inconsistent with our values as a society, and people shouldn't be able to maintain islands of it in violation of U.S. laws.

The dynamic of polygamy is that older, higher-status men take as many women as they can. They work to crowd out young men and to make young women as pliable as possible, so as to eliminate any competition from the former and inhibit any tendency on the part of the latter to fall for men their own age. It inherently features brutish sexual competition among men (the winners get many wives, the losers none) and the subjugation of women who are made to serve a man not, in turn, fully devoted to her.

This is exactly how FLDS works. It looks for any excuse to kick out teenage boys. These "lost boys" are left to fend for themselves on the streets. Meanwhile, teenage girls are taught obedience, which can mean, as 13-year-olds, marrying men old enough to be their grandfathers.

With its emphasis on hierarchy and the degrading of individual choice, polygamy is traditionally associated with authoritarian cultures. Jonathan Rauch of the National Journal writes, "No polygamous society has ever been a true liberal democracy, in anything like the modern sense." In his classic book "Men and Marriage," George Gilder argues, "Monogamy is egalitarianism in the realm of love." It promises one woman per man, and limits the ability of powerful men to dominate.

One disapproving columnist says of the Texas raid: "There is a whiff of cultural imperialism here. This is about further marginalizing an already-marginalized way of life." Indeed it is. There are limits to pluralism. In the 19th century, when the Mormon Church still supported polygamy, the U.S. government harried it mercilessly. As Stanley Kurtz points out, the campaign against polygamy related to the effort to democratize Utah.

Now, polygamists are trying to ride on the liberal wave of nonjudgmentalism and of hostility to traditional marriage. Who are we to say what marriage is? As liberal democrats, we've said it before, and have to again.

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About The Author
Rich Lowry is author of Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years .
 
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As Appalling...
...as is the plight of the young women in a polygamous cult, it does make one realize that the plight of young women in the inner-city underclass is not so great either. Ann Romney tells of speaking to a group of inner-city girls. She asked: how many of you plan to have a baby before you graduate from high school? Most hands went up. Then she asked: How many are planning to go to college? Again, most hands.

Well, you can't do both, said Ann. But the girls couldn't see it.

I see them everyday waiting for the bus outside my office. Teenage girls with their babies coming from the nearby alternative school. The girls feel validated by having some gang-banger's baby and going on public welfare. A 70% illegitimate rate is as sad, in my opinion, as the young girls brain-washed and held hostage in a polygamous compound.

HUH?
I don't know what's worse,white men wanting marrige & children by more than one woman& providing for them, or black men having children by more than one woman & taking care of none of them.

Lowry protecting Mitt's Religion
"The compound of the polygamous sect -- a breakaway from the Mormon Church, which long ago forswore plural marriage a century ago"
I suppose Hugh made him do it. This almost sounds like how the GOP ticket will spend time defending Mitt's religion if McCain is dumb enough to pick him for VP. It's like Obama defending Wright's other 'good deeds'. So, Lowry what sect does Mitt belong to? and why are they different than this sect?

Sarah
Nope. Mitt's not going to be VP for the very reason you mention. Too many ignoramouses will make an issue of his religion. They will not be able to make the distinction between a bunch of wacked out actual cultists and a brilliant, accomplished main stream guy with a record of improving nearly everything he touches.

However, give men like Hewitt and Lowry credit for trying to help the idiots understand the difference.

I just love it
This society is rotten to the core, the hypocrisy is smothering in its insufferable stench, but they go after these people like they are do damn holy themselves.

This entire episode stinks to high heaven

ILAGUY
What makes you think the men are taking care of their polygamous wives and families? A whole lot of welfare is being paid there.

And what about the Lost Boys who get booted by the old bulls in the polygamous settlements? Not only have I read about them, but a news program was on about them last week.

http://www.josephlied.com
http://www.outofpolygamy.com

K.G.
It wasn't that long ago that Romney was extremely liberal. cf. His run against Ted Kennedy for Senate. Then he was liberal. cf. His run for governor. While he was running for governor, he was asked about the federal criminal prosecution of DDi and Bain Capital. DDi was directly overseen by Romney. It was charged with massive Medicaid fraud in billing. Romney said he has been the "whistleblower" on the case. U.S. Attorney Stern said that was a lie. Stern said it was corporate greed run amok.

When Romney presented himself in this third incarnation, that of a very conservative candidate, it was beyond any leap of imagination. We are not talking about a ten year span here. We are talking about very fast turn arounds in politcal approach. It was just too incredible. Further, Romney did not present himself as anything other than a stiff figure. He simply is not likeable to many.

Sarah
Are you still on the thread? Before it is over the crowd will gather. I saw what you went through that the other day.

I will be in and out checking.

LA Guy
On the contrary, polygamists have been shown to collect welfare, food stamps and medical care (courtesy of us taxpayers) for the women whose names are not listed on a legal marriage license and of course all their children who were born out of wedlock.

The father might be present in the polygamist community, but that does not necessarily mean he's paying the bills.

Even if the real father is identified and his wages garnished, it's obvious the government will never come close to collecting back the amounts paid out.

A women named Laurene Jessop, who escaped from the FLDS, had grown up in a polygamist family. Her father had 4 wives and 54 children.

integrity1
Jessop has written a book. I have seen her, and others who left, several times on TV interviews recently.

Don't forget the Lost Boys. They are thrown out with no money, no job, nothing. They struggle to find a place to live. While these communes have money, it seems that they don't see fit to take care of all of their children.

an insightful article
That George Gilder book looks very interesting.

It is no secret that traditional marriage elevates the position of women in society, but I had never considered that it also elevated the status of the younger, less powerful men.

I did read that the way the Temple performs plural marriages is by initiating a divorce from one wife, performing a ceremony of marriage to the next wife, and then not completing the divorce to the first wife. Could this be more widespread than we ever imagined, or is it a mere anomaly?

We have laws against polygamy and sex with a minor, and I agree with Texas that this whole affair is child abuse, as well as brazen breaking of the trust and laws of the people of Texas, and the US.



Yttrium
Your comments are the first I have heard of any "divorce proceedings". I have read all I can find and have seen interviews on TV. Never have I heard divorce mentioned.

As these are "spiritual marriages", they seem to by-pass any legal matters.

If the story about the marriage bed in the temple at the Texas commune is true, it is absolutely one of the most disgusting things I have heard.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

zedsmom
Apparently you and Sarah are fellow travelers re: Mitt and Mormonism. Whatever you think of either, I'm certain you will agree that they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand: laws posssibly being broken by a crazy sect in Texas.

It's my understanding that polygamy is a felony in Texas. But assuming that these are marriages in name only, not legitamized by the state, polygamy is simply adultery in the eyes of the law.

Also, Texas law permits girls to marry at 16 with parental consent. If laws are being broken in Texas, go after the culprits. If Mitt broke laws in Mass, go after him.

But let's not confuse the two. Your biases are clouding your thinking, I fear.

These the only people in Texas

Breaking the law?
One would think so, reading how holy all Texas is in this situation.
I remember a saying.......ye who are without sin..
Take a look at your high schools in Texas, and tell us once again how 'morally" whole you people in Texas are, how righteous you all are.

Bunch of hypocrites.
Sure the law should be observed by all, BUT it also should be enforced equally, and it is not close.
High Schools are full of underage pregnant teenagers, no difference.
If a teenager marries with consent by herself and her parents, that is evil.
But if she just screws around all over town and ends up pregnant, help her, don't judge her all you nasty people.
Hypocrites

Also
As Texas gives underage teens the right to get an abortion, without a parents consent.(from what I heard, and have no reason to doubt, yet)

-------------




Yttrium writes: 10:40 PM

We have laws against polygamy and sex with a minor, and I agree with Texas that this whole affair is child abuse, as well as brazen breaking of the trust and laws of the people of Texas, and the US.
-----------
So prosecute the men, and leave the kids alone and with their mothers you hypocrites

K.G.
KG, I see your point to a certain extent, but zedsmom made her ~purely~ political differences with Mitt Romney crystal clear in an earlier post. You should appologize to her for misunderstanding her motives.

The only person who brought up Mitt Romney was Sarah, and I think her point is that if McCain picks up Romney on the Republican ticket, prepare to discuss EVERYTHING about Mormonism on a national scale.

talent scout
Polygamy is illegal and the women are equally culpable.

Sorry..
...if I misread Sarah in the beginning. I totally agree Mitt's religion would be baggage among the ignorant that Mack doesn't need. If that's what they are saying, we agree. And if Mitt's not their guy for political or personality reasons, that's their perogative.

But I read Sarah's post as saying she was critical of Lowry for making it clear that LDS is not FLDS and "protecting Mitt's religion."

I'm still unclear where she's coming from. I guess she will have to speak for herself.

Right
Yttrium writes: 11:54 PM
talent scout
Polygamy is illegal and the women are equally culpable.
---------

I bet adultery is too.
I bet using false ID papers is illegal in Texas too.
What happened to the assumption of innocence before the law in Texas?
So do not give me your "righteous" demand about the "law".
Not in this day when the government itself supports law breaking.
Like I said, hypocrites.
All over this country they are picking and choosing which laws are to be enforced, when and on who.
Its not just Texas, but in this case they shine like the hypocrites they are.

How about the laws on that great evil of marrying outside ones skin color still in Texas?
On the books, why is it not enforced like this law on these people are?


A bill specifically to repeal §21.06 of Texas Penal Code has been proposed in three of the last four regular sessions of the Leg:

* 75th session, 1997 - HB 1329
* 76th session, 1999 - HB 337
* 77th session, 2001 - HB 389

None got out of committee.

Texas, ya'all are not saints, ok.
Leave the kids alone and with their mothers UNTIL CHARGED WITH A CRIME.
So far, they just want to experiment with their DNA, lots of money to be made there for someone huh.

Just the Mormons in Texas
Get charged with crimes in Texas?
Looks like it to me, I mean under this law anyway.

Any High Schools being raided in Texas?
Why not, there plenty evidence this law is not being followed, by anyone down there.
Well, it is on the Mormons.

Definition of Indecency with a Child - Texas Penal Code Section 21.11

§ 21.11. INDECENCY WITH A CHILD.

(a) A person commits an offense if, with a child younger than 17 years and not the person's spouse, whether the child is of the same or opposite sex, the person:

(1) engages in sexual contact with the child or causes the child to engage in sexual contact; or

(2) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person:

(A) exposes the person's anus or any part of the person's genitals, knowing the child is present; or

(B) causes the child to expose the child's anus or any part of the child's genitals.

(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor:

(1) was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex;

(2) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the victim at the time of the offense; and

.........

Talent Scout
Just so you're clear, these people are not Mormons. That's the point Lowry was trying to make.

not saints, but still lawful
talent scout,

It seems to me you have to sign the speeding ticket, even if the officer has not been recognized as a holy saint of divine consistency in all things.

K.G. - You were basically right
Sarah is one of the worst anti-Mormon posters on TH. Last year when Romney was doing well she was going crazy at the thought of a Mormon in the White House. She had plenty to say and most of it outrageous.

zedsmom is also anti-Mormon, but not as outrageous as Sarah. She likes to find obscure things about the LDS faith to challenge Mormons on and she takes quotes out of context to make Mormonism look bad - all in the guise of searching for truth. She seems obsessed with it.

Thank you for reiterating that truth that the LDS Church and the FLDS are in no way connected. I agree that this may impact Romney for VP, but I don't think McCain is the kind to worry about it. If Romney is right, McCain will be fearless. The majority of people are fair-minded. They know Romney is a fine man, and the LDS church is a credit to this nation.

Cherry-picking from the morality tree 1
It seems odd to me that we as a society cherry-pick the moral issues that we want to do something about. Polygamy is punished severely, but a man is allowed to sleep with as many women as he can convince, father as many children, and never get married without breaking any laws. It just doesn't make sense. Adultery and promiscuity are legal, and have no legal consequence, but for some mind-boggling reason we care about polygamy?

Let's say, hypothetically, that our polygamy laws are in place to avoid a situation where children are likely to be sexually abused. With abuse as the issue, we really need to re-think our approach to solving it.

So we lock up all the polygamists on a suspicion of sexual abuse...? If polygamy is a risk-factor for sexual abuse of children, shouldn't we also round up all the single moms who bring their kids with them when they move in with their new boyfriends? There are plenty of studies that show how often that leads to abuse. Shouldn't we punish other common behaviors that foster environments of abuse, such as making it illegal to get drunk as a parent? Wouldn't we get so much more millage out of making it a felony to be caught PUI (Parenting under the Influence) instead?

Cherry-picking from the morality tree 2
I think we really missed the target on this one. Family values are falling apart in our country, children are getting abused, and we don't make laws, nor do we give incentives, to avoid behaviors that are destructive to families and which breed environments where children are abused. Why do we care about polygamy, when we don't care about other behaviors that as bad or much worse for children?

Enforcing the laws against polygamy is fine by me, but I can't help but feel that we are wasting our resources by rounding up an entire village worth of children and putting their families on trial for "suspicion of child abuse" because they entered the compound with a "good faith argument". I think there are better ways of dealing with the problem of child abuse.

End Ranting

Separatism…

This incident is more about separatism than polygamy. The state has already demonstrated that it will not tolerate a religious group to separate from the culture.

We may not agree with FLDS doctrine and practice, but do they not have a right to religious freedom and due process? The state is way off the reservation on this one. They think that public opinion will allow them to run over these people.

We are now closer to state harassment of churches that hold to the moral absolutes of the Law of God if this stuff is allowed to stand.

The Mothers
I find myself highly critical of these FLDS mothers. They looks so innocent and yet they are not. To my mind, they are just as bad or worse than the men because they will not protect their daughters, and they simply throw away their sons. And they teach their children to keep secrets, to lie, and to give up their own free will in subordinance to a "prophet".

I don't know if there was a better way for authorities to go about fixing the child abuse problem, but I prefer that they err on the side of protecting children from further abuse.

The Law is good, if used lawfully
Yttrium writes: 12:48 AM
not saints, but still lawful
talent scout,

It seems to me you have to sign the speeding ticket, even if the officer has not been recognized as a holy saint of divine consistency in all things.
--------
Its tyranny to abuse it as Texas is in my Judgment.

Do you not believe in Innocence until proven guilty before the law any longer?
Or did you ever believe in this foundational part of American Jurisprudence?

I agree about enforcing the law, but I want it enforced EQUALLY.

I also want to keep my own rights and that means I must protect everyone else's.
Everyone knows these people are singled out for their religion, their morals are way above the average Texan it appears to me.
I have been reading about that, and they are a mountain higher than the public schools, in Texas and the Nation.
Their morals being judged by those fornicating adulterers down there just galls me.


I understand
K.G. writes: 12:43 AM
Talent Scout
Just so you're clear, these people are not Mormons. That's the point Lowry was trying to make.
-------
Was not sure if they consider themselves Mormons or not.
I am not one, but that is not the point for me.
They have rights just like everyone else does to due process of law.
AND the Presumption of Innocence, until PROVEN Guilty.
They have already been "proven" guilty by the State of Texas in the way they are treating them all.


ValiantforTruth
Their right to religious freedom ends with the abuse of children. These children are clearly living in abusive conditions. These girls have no freedom and are raped with the consent and demand of "religious" leaders.

Their parents right to due process is being accomodated as much as it can be under the circumstances. There is no perfect way to remedy the unacceptable situation at the ranch, and they have brought this upon their own heads.

Lowry's point?
I thought the point of the article was that polygamy is basically an abusive system making "pliant" females, and "powerful, dominating" males.

I also thought the author was pointing out the US government was essentially "democratizing" Utah, by refusing to accept its polygamous practices.

These people in Texas broke many laws and we all know it. Now let's watch and see who jumps to their defense, and why.


Lowrys point?
Who cares
My point is lets watch to see who defends Texas Abuse of Law, and show the world what hypocrites they are.
Let watch to see who supports the violation of the Civil Rights of US Citizens.
Lets keep an eye on them

Talent Scout
These people no doubt consider themselves to be Mormons of some sort, but are completely disavowed by the mainline "Mormon church." However creepy and evil they appear, they deserve to have their Constitutional rights observed. I heard today that the ACLU is on the case. So the plot continues to thicken.

No matter what happens, it's a heart-breaking mess for the poor children.

e-quiv' o-cate'
e-quiv'o-cate'

to use equivocal terms in order to deceive or mislead


It's not a persecuted church, it's a criminal activity.

It's not just the same as men committing adultery.

It's not just the same as girls having babies and going on welfare.

It's not just an obscure law against perfectly acceptable polygamy and statutory rape, selectively enforced.

PC
Thanks for the headzup re: certain posters here.

I also agree with you totally re: the polygamous mothers. Something very evil going on there, abdicating your free will and sacrificing your children to this sinister "religion."

Government should remove children #1

Yesterday I just happened to find an article I had set aside months ago to read:
“Escape from Polygamy,” Glamour Magazine, By Kathy Jo Nicholson with Jan Brown, July 2007
It’s on the Web as well: http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_Glamour_escape_from_poly gamy.html

Kathy Jo came from this same FLDS sect in another state. It doesn’t matter now that the woman was deranged who made the call. The FLDS has been exposed—that’s the important thing.

First, please take a look at these quotes from the article. They tell me these kids—all these kids in the FLDS cult—are under extreme emotional abuse. And now I believe the government was right to remove them from their homes and place them in foster homes. It sounds like many of the foster homes would be with folks from local Baptist churches who would care lovingly for them. Remember that non-acquiescence to polygamy means eternal damnation to them, and girls can only get into heaven through their husbands. That right there is extreme emotional abuse.

Article quotes:

“I started sewing my wedding dress when I was 14 years old. Most girls would never think of marriage at such a young age, but some of my peers were already wives and mothers.”

“If a woman serves her husband faithfully, he may invite her to join him in the celestial kingdom of heaven. But should a woman disobey the Prophet and refuse a life of polygamy, she will be damned to eternal hell.”

“It was painful for my mom to give way to a younger wife. She rarely laughed after that.”

“He banned the dances and sporting events that had brought the community together.”

“The rules Warren (Jeffs) laid down for us were always changing. Wearing certain colors was evil one week but perfectly OK the next.”


“During a moment alone with my mom right before the wedding, she sat me down and told me she was happy I was living a normal life.

Government should remove children #2

Further article quotes from:
“Escape from Polygamy,” Glamour Magazine, By Kathy Jo Nicholson with Jan Brown, July 2007
It’s on the Web as well: http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_Glamour_escape_from_poly gamy.html


“To say yes to Matt's proposal would mean a life free from polygamy — happiness on earth but eternal damnation in hell.”

“I'd never been allowed to make my own decisions growing up, and now I needed Matt — who was equally adrift — to validate every one of my choices, from what to wear to whether I should polish my nails to when would be a good time to do a load of wash.”

“Drinking and substance abuse would dominate my life for years to come.”

“My brother made an amazing transition into public school life (after leaving the FLDS sect). By age 14, he had finished only fourth grade, but he dug into his studies and completed eighth grade with a straight-A average.”

Talent Scout
Did your Mama not teach you that EVERYBODY ELSE DOES is not a valid excuse? The fact that you believe Sis is getting away with something does not mean you are allowed to do the same. Just because your brothers room is a sea of garbage does not mean Mama isnt going to get to it as soon as she has cleaned yours.

As far as polygamy goes, personally I have no objection to it if all parties involved are informed, consenting adults and if the husband is fully supporting them (or if they have agreed on who is going to support them -- perhaps he has married Power Wives and they will work while he farms). HOWEVER, men being what they are, i.e. beings ruled by their wee-wees, the odds are pretty good that the system will end up a lot like a toddlers sandbox with one brat hogging all the toys and shrieking MINE! MINE! MINE! And all girls getting to be the toys.

As for this FLDS fiasco, if the mothers will agree to allow the girls to leave the compound the day they become women, perhaps to attend boarding school, until they are of legal age, and if the community will open up to regular commerce with the outside world so no harems will be established, AND if anyone dumping boys on the street corners is prosecuted for child abandonment -- then let the kids go home. I know that a lot of men dream of a world in which women are brainwashed sex toys bought, sold and traded by middle aged men, but come on. The 1400s are over!

For dsslm
So you think the government can raise children better than their own parents? I haven't seen any government that can do that.

For PC: a lot of TH'ers (including myself) consider Mormons/LDS as a cult (the paucity of nonwhites in it being strong evidence).

What about
the Constitution? This whole raid was based on a bogus false claim and the state is aware of it. But yet, continues to imprison almost 600 Americans and has forcibly taken their DNA.

We can argue til we are all blue in the face about polygamy, or what is sinful, or what is not. I think it is wrong.

But just because, I think it is wrong, does not give me or the state the right, to violate individual rights, due process, illegal search and siezure, wrongful imprisonment, etc, etc..

It is no different than what happened in New Orleans, when the state and military went house to house, from a list of registered gun owners and confiscated private firearms by force of arms. All the while thugs were running in the streets, raping, pillaging and burning down buildings. When citizens needed their firearms, the most for personal protection, the state targeted law abiding citizens, in their own homes. What was their excuse? For the citizens own safety?

There is no difference with what is happening in Texas. The state is blatently violating the individual rights of all those they hold in captivity. They have forcebly ripped children from their mothers, based on a known false accusation.

Yet we argue about polygamy. If the state can do it to them, openly and publicly, then they can do it to any one of us. Perhaps, just the mere fact of your child not wearing a safety belt in a car, is enough to have them removed from your care. Guess what, it is. Children are being taken from their parents for just that.

It is time you people wake up.


Three observations
"...is fundamentally inconsistent with our values as a society, and people shouldn't be able to maintain islands of it in violation of U.S. laws."

There are a number of words that could begin this sentence from Lowry's article. Since this is multiple choice, pick the atrocity of your choice or use several.

Talent Scout, under the title "I just love it" (the first of his many tirades)...complains. Apparently Scout loves to complain. His several follow-ups bear this out. Easily as dull as the "number of angels dancing on a pin" controversy.

Mitt? As with a first black president or a first female president, perhaps one day there will be a first Mormon president. However, in all three cases, the ones involved in this year's election obviously aren't the ones! Mitt flip-flopped into a convenient "position," while Obama and Hillary are pathological liars that couldn't fool bright children, but CAN fool your avg dem voter! And Chris Matthews, whose obnoxious idiocy outweighs his entertainment value as a braying jackass.

;>)



PC
Thanks for giving the "heads-up" on me. I don't want anyone to be confused by my direct statements.

The "obscure statement" came from that obscure man named Brigham Young. That same dark shadow in obscurity has had a university named after him. He didn't die that long ago. If I say or quote something incorrect, correct me. If I ask a direct question, try answering it rather than running off yelling bigot over your shoulder.

When the outrageous insults made by LDS founders and leaders are retracted as to Catholics and Protestants, I will adapt my opinion accordingly.

As to this thread, I will point out that the Lost Boys have support in the Diversity Foundation in Sandy, Utah. Thankfully, more people and groups are reaching out to these precious boys to help them as they are cut off from their families when they are "expelled".

The Hope Organization, a non-profit organization headed by Elaine Tyler, helps women leaving "plural" marriages.

Those two organizations deserve thanks, in my opinion.

As to this thread, Banking on Heaven by Laurie Allen is an interesting and informative book.

PC
To add to the comments I made about Romney being the wrong man, I would have thought much more of Orrin Hatch or a man like him.

PC - point of clarification
Understand that what you call Mormon bashing under the guise of seeking answers is rather paranoid thinking on your part.

Does/did God have sex with the God-mother? Is that a belief you hold?

Did God physically have sex with Mary that lead to the conception of Jesus? Is that a belief you hold?

Do you believe in the Holy Trinity or do you believe it consists of two physical persons and one spiritual person currently, and ever, in physical and spiritual form?

Is there one, everlasting God, or are there incarnations of God through the sexual acts between successive Gods and God-mothers?

zedsmom
I've never called you a bigot, and I've never had a religious discussion with you. But you do seem to be obsessed with Mormon Doctrine. If you don't agree with it, fine. What is the point to tear it down?

When you are corrected as you were the other day about Catholics and Protestants, you ignore it and call for a retraction from the Church. Ha, ha. You say you are searching for truth, but you don't accept legitimate explanations. You basically just want to malign the LDS church. You give out links to things like josephlied.com. Give me a break. I question the value of spending so much of your time obsessed with proving how rotton Mormonism is. There is something amiss - why don't you just enjoy your own faith and move on?

Yes, I graduated from that great university and I'm proud of it.

zedsmom
The other day hillplus told you that our doctrine about the birth of Christ is nothing more than believing that Mary was indeed a virgin when she gave birth, and that God is the literal Father of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more - you can speculate all you want. You were given the info you asked for and yet you came back again today with the same scandalous charge.

Again, zedsmom - why this paranoid obsession? It seems to be eating away at you.

Lowry is right
What is so troublesome about polygamy, much more than simply the fact of plural marraige, is that the system in practice always involves marraige between people of completely different positions of power to the degree that the girls involved do not have a real choice in the matter.

This should sharply be contrasted with our current sense of marraige whether between a man and a women or between two individuals of the same sex.

The law:
The first amendment say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

That my friends is The law. Any law, created by any legislature, that violates that law is null and void. All laws that seek to prohibit any religious practice are not laws at all, they are an imposition of tyranny under the guise of law.

Insighting Truth
Do you think the abuse of children should be protected behavior under the free exercise of religion?

PC
Take heart. I have studied Islam and read the Qu'ran (Koran) and Judaism. Those are just examples for your consideration. Did, for example, you know that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is mentioned more times in the Qu'ran than in the Bible?

I have read and studied Buddhaism. I have asked questions of my Buddhist friends about, for example, the purpose of a stupa, when the Shambala Center built a stupa in Colorado two years ago. I spent less time on Buddhaism that the monothestic religions.

Jumping is not good exercise as it is hard on the joints in the knee and ankle. Jumping to conclusions is equally harmful intellectually. I have done much study and reading for forty-three years to be exact. I have studied history, archeology, and religion as part of it. In religion, I have paid attention to how secular history and archeology support or do not support religious thinking.

If you read Genesis, you will find four rivers named that bordered the Garden of Eden. They are Pishon, Gihon, Hiddekel (now called Tigris), and the Euphrates. A recent NASA photograph showed, that with the changes of sea level, the former beds of the Pishon and Gihon, which allows religious scholars to come to some conclusions about where the Garden of Eden was located. Somewhere I ran across statements by Jospeh Smith that the Garden of Eden was outside of Independence, Missouri. I am making an attempt to understand that, as one of the many sources of inquiry.

I did not say you called me names and defended you with that statement just days ago.

PC
Do you think your question bears any resemblance to an intelligent question?

The issue of child abuse has nothing to do with "laws" pretending to prohibit religious practices.

Insighting Truth
By logical extension of your thought on the grant by the Constitution, a religion allowing human sacrifice would be protected. Several months back an Islamic taxi driver murdered two of his daughters as honor killings because they were becoming too westernized. Should law enforcement stop its search for him? Would you say that, under the Constitution, he has not committed a crime?

For zedsmom
"Did, for example, you know that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is mentioned more times in the Qu'ran than in the Bible?"

Problem with that, found in Pickthall translation. Koran actually juxtaposes (Old Testament Prophetess) Miriam and Mary together as "Mariam sister of IMRAN and HAROUN, and mother of Iso" (I checked this personally with Peter Iqbal in May 2005). Link to his testimony:

http://lefi.org/library/iqbal.htm

zedsmom
You said this above:

"If I ask a direct question, try answering it rather than running off yelling bigot over your shoulder."

I don't do that.

Your questions were answered and you repeat them anyway. Did you go to fairlds.org to check it out? If you want answers, try it. TH is a forum for political discussion and throwing religion bombs against Mormons doesn't add anything. But apparently, it gives you some sort of sick satisfaction.

Where conservatives should be
I'm surprised to note that only a few TH readers took a true conservative position here. The real conservative should support the right of the members of this sect to live as they wish. If polygamy is the preference of members of this group, then, as far as I can see, these folks are exercising their 1st Amendment right to the 'free exercise' of their religion.

Texas should have kept its hands off these people until or unless there was evidence of abusive behavior. Otherwise, this group should have been left alone.

Zedsmom:
Just as PC did in his last post, you are conflating arguments. Laws against murder are Constitutional because murder deprives an unwilling participant of his/her right to life. We could have a discussion about self-murder, or volunteering to be sacrificed.

However I prefer to stick with the topic at hand. How do you read the words of the first amendment and arrive at any conclusion other than no law prohibiting a religious practice is valid?

GregoryMark #1
GregoryMark has phrased the problem well.

Lowry's objection to the sexual mores of this sect, if slightly edited to remove prejudicial emphasis, is an objection to fornication plain and simple:

"...older, higher-status men take as many women as they can. They work to crowd out young men and to make young women as pliable as possible, so as to eliminate any competition from the former and inhibit any tendency on the part of the latter to fall for men their own age. It inherently features brutish sexual competition among men..."

But where, if anywhere, is the righteous indignation against fornication or serial monogomy with younger and younger women?... or is Lowry afraid that the Capitol Hill compound (i.e. Congress) will be emptied should we start raiding fornicators?

The problem here is that the law is being invoked haphazardly and inconsistently. Worse, it is more than apparent that the law is being used to break the sect qua sect because it is repugnant to the cultural mores of America.

As a Catholic, it concerns me to see the law employed as a weapon against cultural opponents... To the extent that our subculture runs counter to the Liberal Mores of America, we might see the law used to force Catholic Hospitals to perform abortions, or perhaps to employ Gay clergy and staff, or silence our Bishops from speaking on political matters for fear of the loss of "Tax Exempt" status... Or are we seeing all of this already?

GregoryMark #1
GregoryMark has phrased the problem well.

Lowry's objection to the sexual mores of this sect, if slightly edited to remove prejudicial emphasis, is an objection to fornication plain and simple:

"...older, higher-status men take as many women as they can. They work to crowd out young men and to make young women as pliable as possible, so as to eliminate any competition from the former and inhibit any tendency on the part of the latter to fall for men their own age. It inherently features brutish sexual competition among men..."

But where, if anywhere, is the righteous indignation against fornication or serial monogomy with younger and younger women?... or is Lowry afraid that the Capitol Hill compound (i.e. Congress) will be emptied should we start raiding fornicators?

The problem here is that the law is being invoked haphazardly and inconsistently. Worse, it is more than apparent that the law is being used to break the sect qua sect because it is repugnant to the cultural mores of America.

As a Catholic, it concerns me to see the law employed as a weapon against cultural opponents... To the extent that our subculture runs counter to the Liberal Mores of America, we might see the law used to force Catholic Hospitals to perform abortions, or perhaps to employ Gay clergy and staff, or silence our Bishops from speaking on political matters for fear of the loss of "Tax Exempt" status... Or are we seeing all of this already?

GregoryMark #2
There are laws to protect children from sexual abuse, laws to punish those who abandon teenagers to the elements and even laws that prohibit multiple wives... but under the veneer of law here we have a raid on a sect that we find odious to ourselves... and consternation not to find the *desired* levels of "child Abuse" and "forced marriages" that we were hoping for.

If we are truly shocked and horrified at the prospect of Powerful older (say 45-65) men having sex with young women (say 18-20) then where are the cries to remove Elliot Spitzer's daughters from his care? Where is the opprobrium against the neo-pagan female polygamy we call the sexual revolution?

What if this sect were strictly lawful; that is, Men engaged in serial monogamy (with legal divorces) with consenting women (say, at least 25 to remove any whiff of abuse) fathering multiple children and living in continued proximity to multiple "shared" families. Other than perhaps scale and religion, how is this really different from your average suburban cul-de-sac?

I just wonder when Christianity (and Catholicism) will become sufficiently odious to Secular America and what recourse we will have if the laws are customarily used as a hammer to break sects and not as a rule to maintain civil peace.

If real laws are broken and truly unspeakable acts committed, then let the law act with surgical precision against the perpetrators. As for me, I fear the state acting against dissident groups and using the law to justify it...

How long will it be until *you* are the dissident group with the odious Religious doctrines? As far as I can tell, to some in America, we Christians already are.

I'm disappointed Rich
First time that I have been in disagreement with you.

Americans should be outraged over this situation! The last time I checked we still do have a Constitution and a legal process. Yet, I see everyone acting on gossip and heresay that has already publicly convicted this group of people. It will set a terrible precedent and is no way justice.

Everyone should slow down and think what is in the best interest of these children. If you put all of these children in foster care, what are the odds that they won't be abused there?

There is a report by Texas Rangers that this was prompted by a BOGUS phone call made by Rosita Swinton in Colorado. It is also rumored that she is a Obama delegate and has made several other bogus reports of abuse. (How did she have detailed print info in her apartment about the FLDS?)

Lest we not forget that almost ALL of the information about the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas ended up being bogus.

I'm just saying.......... let's not jump to conclusions before we know all of the facts.

You're still one of my favorite columnists but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one though. :-)

Are you sure...
that this doesn't have something to do with Mitt Romney and Mormanism?

Just food for thought..........the timing is odd!

YES OUR SYSTEM IS FAR SUPERIOR

.....We pay taxes to support women who have multiple children from multiple men so that fatherhood is rarely known or acknowledged and these children grow up on the streets and drift into crime, drugs and gangs like Chicago where 34 children were killed last year in gang related deaths ....yes our system is far superior to those polygamist sex fiends ...

.....They teach their daughters to be obedient and compliant while we teach ours how to have "safe" pre-maritial random sex and when impregnated how to procur an abortion with out parental knowledge ...yes our system is superior ...

.....Yes our girls are free to make sex videos of themselve to post on the Internet while their girls are forced to marry men, "older" men ...how disgusting! ...yes we are much too superior for that ...

.....We claim to have Religious freedom under the First Amendment but when those religious practices violate our our sense of morality ...we crush it ...we invade a ranch where people live in peace ...they do not form gangs, they do not allow their children to roam the streets like wild dogs and engage in drive-by shooting and violence ...but we criminalize them and take away their freedom ...

.....Yes our ghettos in Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles are far superior to those "perverted" sex compounds out in the middle of nowhere ...I feel so superior to those crazy religious freaks .....COLOSSUS

Gestell
There is abundant evidence of abusive behavior toward the chidren.

Celebrate Earth Day
Click on my name or cut and paste this link fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com and go to my blog for some tips on how to celebrate Earth Day in as politically incorrect a manner as possible.

Liberals and eco-freaks are welcome as well, though be warned, your delicate constitutions may not be able to handle the satire and humor contained there in.

Have a great day all!

talent scout
I'm a bit perplexed. In all of your posts, you seem to be saying essentially that its a hypocrisy to investigate a potential crime until there are no worse situations to compare it to. By your standards then it would follow that rape is ok, because murder happens too, and it's worse. Or that you shouldn't prosecute a burgler because worse crimes happen evey day. Or that rape inside the compound shouldn't be investigated because there's rape outside too.

I just don't get your thinking, but you seem to be really riled up about it for some reason.

Regarding hippocrits, I reckon the biggest one is usually the guy screaming "Hippocrits!!!"

PC
My remark was on a politician, Romney, and you quickly wanted to point out that I am "anti-Mormon". I addressed the man not the religion. That got your pantyhose in a wad.

When a man presents himself as a political candidate, the measure of his life comes into question and there is no exemption.

Keep battering me; and, I keep standing. The many unanswered questions still stand, also. I don't tolerate my religion being diminished or hijacked by anyone. Therefore, I study more closely and ask questions.

And, I am going to the cite you provided, for which I thanked you. However, I did not bring the topic up here until your gratuitous remarks about me. You make the remark while I am online and you can rest assured that I will respond. Freedom of speech is not a one-way street.

GESTELLE*

.....The stars must be aligned in the Heavens again ...this is one of those rare occasions where I totally agree with you .....COLOSSUS

Gestell
You opine that a "true conservative" would leave them alone, and say that "Texas should have kept its hands off these people until or unless there was evidence of abusive behavior"

You seem to assume that they have no evidence. You might have to eat crow on that one. Do you REALLY think they undertook this huge effort SOLELY on the basis of a phone call?

An interesting side not to all of this is that these FLDS compounds exist in several states. Apparently the call referenced the one in Texas because they knew that it would be acted upon rather than ignored.

svpallava
Yup, I know there are a bunch of self-proclaimed "Christians" everywhere who have been taught over their pulpits that Mormons (as well as other mainstream religions) are a cult. The word, while might be used benignly to describe New Testament Christianity, is used, in your mind as a pejorative.

And why would your pastors teach you it's your Christian duty to demonize Mormonism? For the same reason Warren Jeffs teaches the young women of his flock they are going to hell if they refuse to follow him. It's interesting to note how frantic certain segments of the "Christian" community have always been to keep Mormonism marginalized. And how a Romney candidacy was so threatening.

Unable to attack the LDS Church as it is currently practiced, you guys have to go back into history and dredge up a bunch of stuff that is no way part of canonized doctrine. Your end game is not to educate yourselves re: another religion. It is to demonize because your religious leaders have told you Mormons, tho avowed Christians who believe they are saved by the grace, merits and mercy of Jesus Christ, are nevertheless going to hell.

Describing Mormonism as a cult because "there is a paucity of non-whites" is just nonsense on every level. I am led to believe that the same spirit that motivates Warren Jeffs is motivating you.

If you are a sincere seeker of truth, take the opportunity to study Mormonism as it's practiced today and quit bearing false witness. It's a capital crime in the Bible, you know.

K.G,
Thank you, again. You explained it much better than I ever could.

marchemaine
You ask "What if this sect were strictly lawful; that is, Men engaged in serial monogamy (with legal divorces) with consenting women (say, at least 25 to remove any whiff of abuse)..." and then say that under those conditions, it'd be the same as any neightborhood.

That's true, but your argument is moot. Because the sect was NOT lawful, it's NOT serial monogamy, them women AREN'T 25...and so on.
Really, that's like saying well, if there were no sex and no abuse involved, and the children weren't children but 25 year olds, then it wouldn't be child abuse.
Duh.

And for all those
who are in the thinking, that this raid is righteous, here is something to think about.

There has been an undercover government agent, inside the compound for 4 years.

Don't you think it odd, that the state would move to raid this ranch, from a false accusation? Then continue, to hold these people, even after the accusation is found to be false?

I mean really, an undercover agent for 4 years? No evidence in 4 years?

Is this some kind of motor cycle gang, or the crypts, bloods, etc?

Just makes me wonder, how many other religious groups have government agents reporting their activities, from the inside?

Actually, now that I think of it. How many pastors have been threatened across the country, by the gov for making political speeches from the puplit?

Who are these people, that would turn in their pastors? Or is it, government agents spying on churches?

The real question is why? Is the government afraid of religious groups?




1000 whores legal - Polygamy illegal?
A man can take thousands of whores and your laws say those relationships of consenting adults are legal but if a man calls two women his wives you claim it is illegal?

Americans are no longer that STUPID!

Hotels pump x-rated movies into the rooms and you attack polygamists who don't even have televisions?

Today's pastors and the members of their churchs have STDs and they condemn a man who would call two women his wives?

Hypocrites!

baseballdoc
You seem to be saying the same thing as talent scout: that becasue there are crimes outside of this compound, it's wrong to investigate the ones inside it.
I don't get the thinking.

insighting truth
The constitution also says we have a right to bear arms. But when we commit a crime with one, we'll wind up in court.

SunThe1
Correct.

But the premise is that the real motivation for the raid was the Sect busting with the Abuse of a 16 year-old (perhaps fictional 16-year-old?) as the trigger.

If an anonymous phone call targeted a highly-restricted affluent gated community and suggested that there was wide-spread abuse of children would the authorities gather all the families and all the children and separate them? Or would you expect them to locate the 16-year-old in question?

I just think we have a blind-spot here where we are willing to round-up folks en-masse on an anonymous tip... and somehow we're ok with that.

For KG
Please explain to me why LDS did not allow African American s to be ordained until 1978, and also its ban on caffeine consumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_The_Church_of_Jesus _Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Wages of Polygamy?
You dare to twist scripture? You clearly imply that with your title: The Wages of Polygamy by substituting the word polygamy for the word sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you calling those two polygamists, Abraham and Jacob dead?

Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

polygamy, polyandry, polyphyny
should be legal and will be the next time the Reynolds case is retried
in the SCOTUS.

That said, no one should be forced to be married to any one.

There is rape, or rape by another name imo going on in these
communities. And the parents of those children and their husbands (sic)
should be held on rape charges. nuff said on that.


Now, if adults want to willingly enter into these relationships I am not
against it even though I would not choose it for myself. But these
communities make a mockery of free will.

Evidence on the raid
As Marchmaine states, the evidence used for the raid is rather faulty:
(1) the language used by "Sarah" was rather untypical of FLDS
(2) the man she claims as her husband hasn't been in TX (let alone Eldorado) in about 30 years
(3) WND's report (corroborated by Chronicle) that it was a prank call from Hilldale/Colorado City (from a non-Mormon 33-year old black with a history of such)

SunThe1:
There is a Right to bear arms. There is not "right" to commit a crime. What exactly are you trying to say?

Where is the evidence?
Everyone here that supports the Texas authorities seems to be operating under the assumption that they have some evidence of abuse. If so, where is it? If there was evidence of any crime being committed, whay has NO ONE been charged with any crimes? No charges of polygamy lodged, no charges of child abuse either...so where's the evidence? This is about as simple a case of abuse of power as you're going to see. As a matter of fact, I have a blog post about ust this issue. Feel free to click my name and check it out.

For Flagwaver--commentary of WND
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 61971

---------exerpt------------
Now, I don't like polygamy.

And I don't like child abuse.

But, after carefully reading all the news reports covering activities of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am left wondering if the action by the state was excessive.

An investigation of the compound had been under way for four years. A confidential informant, a former member of the sect, was providing authorities with details of activities.

The raid was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. He is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl.

In other words, the chief suspect was KNOWN, in advance, NOT to be in the ranch compound.
----------end exerpt--------------

Basically, it looks like TX CPS waiting for an excuse, so they used evidence known to be patently false as justification for the raid--definitely abuse of power by state here.

insighting truth
You posted several times above that the contitution guarantees that the practice of religion shall not be infringed.
It appeared that you were saying that these folks' constitutional rights have been infringed because it's a religion, regardless of whether crimes were committed.
I was trying to point out that religion is not an excuse to commit a crime.
Did I misunderstand your intent?

marchmaine
If I thought the phone call was all they had, I would agree with you 100%.
I'm assuming that was a trigger, but not the actual sum of evidence.

It takes awhile to process one case, much less 400. We'll see I guess. If it turns out that the authorities swooped in on the basis of one phone call, I'll be surprised, but I'll join you in condemning it soundly.


SunThe1:
Yes.

Glad you dropped in
SunThe1 writes: 10:56 AM
talent scout
I'm a bit perplexed. In all of your posts, you seem to be saying essentially that its a hypocrisy to investigate a potential crime until there are no worse situations to compare it to.
---------
ts:
Well if I said that, please direct me to the post I made you falsely claim that is what I said.

Where is the post I made that says to investigate a........quote you:

" you seem to be saying essentially that its a hypocrisy to investigate a potential crime "


NO WHERE will you or anyone find a post from me that comes CLOSE to saying that.

The problem in communicating here is people LIKE YOU.
You read between the lines and do not read what is written.
Now, before I can communicate with you on what my point is, we MUST clear this lie up first.

I am all for investigation of crimes, believe in it strongly too.
I am against CONVICTING PEOPLE BEFORE ANY EVIDENCE IS SUBMITTED FOR CONVICTION.


The State of Texas has ALREADY FOUND THEM ALL GUILTY, AND THAT WITHOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO A TRAIL.
FACING THEIR ACCUSERS!
Yes, that angers me, that so many like you who would be whining and crying if Texas done this to YOU.
But have no virtue of liberty for all in you whatsoever that you want for YOURSELF.
HYPOCRITE.











The hypocrisy I speak of is right here
Suntheone writes to me:

By your standards then it would follow that rape is ok, because murder happens too, and it's worse.
--------
ts:
Show where I said anything close to that, you hypocrite.

-----------

Suntheone writes:
Or that you shouldn't prosecute a burgler because worse crimes happen evey day. Or that rape inside the compound shouldn't be investigated because there's rape outside too.
----------
ts:
Show where I said anything close to that, you hypocrite.
---------

Suntheone writes:
I just don't get your thinking, but you seem to be really riled up about it for some reason.
-------
ts:
First off sir/madam, I do not think that.
That is ALL YOU saying that, NOT ME.

You have yet to address what I AM SAYING, and here making up false accusations at me in what I have SAID, hypocrite.

----------
Suntheone writes

Regarding hippocrits, I reckon the biggest one is usually the guy screaming "Hippocrits!!!"
----------
ts:
Yeah, like that hypocrite Jesus Christ huh, who said "let you without sin cast the first stone"

Here you are ready to STONE THESE PEOPLE TO DEATH, without a CONVICTION AND COURT TRIAL.
hypocrite

We have forgotten
The basics of Liberty for all in this Country.
No better example exists than this miscarriage of justice in Texas.

Place yourself in their shoes for just a few minutes.

See how much you would disagree with the Law men who came and took you children away all based in rumor and accusations.

The Right to a ASSUMPTION OF INNOCENCE BEFORE THE LAW IS CRITICAL, for the Spirit of Liberty for ALL.

Without this basic truth, no one is safe from being arrested over an accusation.

There must be this basic right for us all to prevent an abuse of power by the State.

These people have already been convicted in the publics mind, both from the accusations and the ACTIONS OF THE STATE.

This is the System fond under communists, fascists,royalty and nazi's.
NOT AMERICANS!

Judgment has a TIME!
No judgment should be made until all the evidence is presented in an open Court Room.

With both the accused and the accuser facing one another.
And both free to speak.
If we are no longer going to give people accused of a crime the right to a trial by jury, then lets be honest about it, and admit the press is the judge, and public opinion is the jury.
And just do away with a legal system all together.

Or lets just say if the State makes a judgment about any person in America, we quit allowing them to have a defense and a right to speak up in their own defense.
Can we at least have this basic honesty and admit to ourselves we do not want such liberty for all, but only for ourselves.

This to me is hypocrisy, but is just my own opinion.

The RUSH to Judgment is like a flood in this day and time on these people in Texas.
Their religion is indeed strange, and that is all that matters to many many many of you today, and are all hypocrites in MY JUDGMENT.

Some very basic truths Americans ONCE Believed in and are now cast away.

Joh 5:30 -
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will,......

1Co 4:5 - Show Context
Therefore judge nothing before the time....

Judgment has a time, when and after all the evidence is presented in a Court of Law.
With the RIGHTS of the ACCUSED to a DEFENSE.
FACING THEIR ACCUSERS.



If any of you
Will not stand up for these peoples rights to an open court of law, to determine who is guilty of a crime, facing their accusers, and having representation to defend themselves, against their accusers, then you have submitted and given up your own rights to have the right to face your accusers in an open court room.
And the presumption of innocence before the law.


And NOT with hold your judgment, before you have heard their defense, then do not whine if the same injustice happens to you some day, and it will come.
You reap what you sow.

Simply because you have now accepted the idea that if the State charges you with a crime, and a crime by association of beliefs, then, you are guilty and have no rights to a trial of your peers.

Lets allow the press, the public opinion and the beliefs of the public to convict, and stop with the idea the Justice System is ABOUT JUSTICE.

Lets all be allowed to make judgments against all the people among us who are "weird" in their beliefs.
And if the State agrees and says they are guilty, lets do away with the Defense Attorneys and send them all packing.




Maybe I'm offbase here,
I haven't taken the time to read all the posts, but if it's supposed to be OK in our "enlightened" culture to push condoms and pills to youngsters who *aren't* married; if the "hookup" culture on high school and college campuses is fine, why isn't it OK for these kids to be part of polygamous families?

What's the diff?


The self righteousness of today STINKS
To high heaven, and it causes a smoke from the Anger of God in His Righteousness.

Don't believe this?
Who cares, not He or me or millions of others who see what is coming on this hypocritIcal and self righteous generation of Americans.

WHO ARE NOT CLEANSED from their OWN sins, but are PURE IN THEIR OWN EYES.

Proverbs 30:12 -
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.


Do I feel the anger and indignation of the Spirit of God?
I do, sincerely.
Not just this one situation but the overall hypocrisy going on all over this land.

A land that ONCE Honored the Lord, and now spits in His face.
A land that ONCE held true hearted conviction for basic truths that come from NATURE.

Thinking mankind can now change even nature by the power of their tongues.
The deception of the times are ruling the hearts and the minds of the general public, today.

The deceit is now in control of our own government like NEVER seen in past generatiosn of Americans.
NEVER.

Lies fall out of the front runners for the Office of President, and the people love the lies from one or another of them.
Depending on which person they hold in respect and honor above any other value.

A nation of hypocrites, and Texas leads the way with their self righteousness.

Ever been to Texas?
Everyone there is righteous and ready to judge any and all evil.

Snap judgments too, and this is the problem with the nation that is now seen openly in Texas.

Call me nuts, I do not care, cause I will die nuts, believing that this nation is backslidden from all it once held dear.
No longer can God even be honored in our public institutions, but strange gods are.
Prayers to someone called budda, allah is fine, just do NOT openly mention the Name Jesus Christ.

Ok, fine, but His Judgment will be the final Word anyhow.


Love for Strange gods and strange flesh, prophesied to come in the last days, is here and now.

SUNTHE1

.....Perhaps I am being too sarcastic ...all I can see is the holier than thou hypocricy ...the sanctimonious pot calling the kettle black ...

.....I would not choose to live in a polygamist commune ...but when I compare their "offenses" against what I see in our own communities like Detroit and Chicago ...the FLDS behavior seems saintly by comparison ...

.....Men having multiple wives or marrying girls just out of puberty is wrong because we have a different interpretation of the Bible than they do ...why are we right? ...because we make the rules? ....we let young girls get abortions with no questions asked and protect it with law ...they let young girls marry older men and we call that a crime ...in the eyes of a Cosmic God ...which offense is worse? .....COLOSSUS

For svpallava
I'm not the worlds foremost expert on mormonism but let me try to respond to your question. Genesis 4 tells the story of Cain. Cain was cursed and God put a mark on him for slaying his brother, Abel. Prior to 1978, descendants of Cain could be baptized and receive all of the blessings of church membership, but could not hold the priesthood. In 1978, their prophet received a revelation which extended the ability to hold the priesthood to all worhty male members. I know that many christians do not believe in revelation, but mormons do.

Now a question for you? Why did God have a chosen people in the Old Testament? Doesn't he love all of his children? Even within his chosen people, descendants of Levi had priesthood callings that no other tribe was given. Why weren't members of the other 11 tribes allowed to hold the Levitical Priesthood?

Confusing
I also haven't taken the time to read all of the posts but many of the ones above do make some valid points.
It's okay to have multiple children with multiple women in America as long as you don't marry them.
It's okay to suck money from the tax payers to pay for multiple children as long as you're not a part of a "weird" religion.
It's okay to crash into a home, temple, compound, and steal children from their mothers, based on unsubstatiated charges as long as it's performed against a (relatively small) "weird" religion.


Confusing some more
Here's where I stand. If there is child abuse, and sex with minors going on, why couldn't there have been an investigation of the matter using normal investigative procedures? Why does Texas have to go into a "weird" religious compound with armor, and semi-autos? One would think that since they don't have a great success rate in dealing with "weird" religions, that they might have thought of a new tactic. What would have happened if the FLDS men had decided not to be subjective to the Texas authorities and had decided to fight? Waco. Much like the Branch Davidians, these people don't bother any body, stick to themselves, and don't really interact with their communities. Is that a crime? But as soon as we have allegations of crime, we sure do need to get in there and check out that "weird" religion.

Flagwaver is correct
There is not one piece of evidence of child abuse in this case nor has anyone been accused of a crime. The State of Texas invaded that community armed with machine guns, tanks and an armored swat team based on nothing more than an anonymous report of child abuse by a 33 year old woman who has since been arrested.

But look what they're doing down there! Saturday the weak willed judge refused "...to consider the motion to order that nursing mothers remain in the shelter with their children." And as soon as they finish the DNA testing those maniacal social workers at CPS are going to remove those babies from their mothers. And for what reason?

How on earth does the law allow them to treat people like this?

Even more confusing
On that subject, let's just change FLDS temple for Islamic temple. They have some pretty "weird" practices as well. Under Sharia law they are allowed to take multiple wives, arrange marriages for their daughters with elders, and even kill members of their own families for bringing dishonor to them. I haven't heard about any raids or even investigations into them at all.
Could it be because they would have all kinds of problems if they did? The FLDS is a pretty small group in comparison and no one is willing to take a look at it and defend them. How about those Amish? They are kind of "weird", too. Or those snake dancing baptists in the midwest? They should be checked out a little bit. There are tons of "weird" religions out there.
I'm not saying that there aren't crimes that have been commited here, just that I think it has been gone about the wrong way. If some anonymous person had called they authorities and said I was abusing my kids, do they then have the right to come in to my home gestapo style, take my kids and then investigate? Where is my country going?
For those of you who have been saying that they are taking welfare from the good taxpayers of the country, let me ask this: DNA testing on 416 kids that don't appear to have any abuse is about $500 per test. An investigation into "alleged" child abuse, maintaining facilities for 416 kids, feeding them, providing staff to care for them, all for an investigation that may go nowhere? Based on a phone call that can't even be verified? How much is that costing the good taxpayer?
Think about slippery slopes while you ponder.

Serial Polygamy. not serial monogamy
What is commonly practiced in the U.S. is taking MULTIPLE spouses (i.e., "poly"), one at a time, (i.e., "serially).
That is Serial Polygamy, not Serial Monogamy.

I've seen the term "serial monogamy" several times in these comments, until I couldn't stay quiet. I think ~m~a~y~b~e~ Margaret Mead coined the phrase.

By the way, I also object to the term "significant other". I prefer "insignificant other". If there were enough significance, they'd have gotten married.

Something Fishy
There is something fishy about the reported "mole" who was supposedly in the compound for 4 years. What? He or she sat around observing child abuse for 4 years and just let it happen? Doesn't sound right to me.

Either there was no mole or there was no legally defined abuse. I don't like anything about this group, but the government's actions don't add up either.

The ACLU's on it. What next?

Reply to Ind Observer
"Why did God have a chosen people in the Old Testament? Doesn't he love all of his children?"

Unfortunately, the concept of "chosen" is rather misunderstood; the Israelites (specifically, the tribe of Judah) were CHOSEN as the people from whom the Messiah would come forth.

"Even within his chosen people, descendants of Levi had priesthood callings that no other tribe was given. Why weren't members of the other 11 tribes allowed to hold the Levitical Priesthood?"

Probably because the first prophets of Israel (Moses and his brother Aaron) came from this tribe. In fact, the priesthood was further restricted to only descendants of Aaron (remember the story of Korah).

Gregory Mark
You hit the nail on the head. Daniel Patrick Moynihan called it "defining deviancy down." Now we're supposed to believe that fornication, adultery, illegitimacy, homosexuality, and no-fault divorce are great things. It does make it seem a bit hypocritical to keep opposing polygamy.

Of course, it remains consistent to continue opposing all of these things.

The issue of underage wives in the Texas FLDS case is a difficult one, though again, there doesn't appear to be anything in Texas law prohibiting a 50, 60, or even 70 year old man from marrying a 12- or 13-year-old. My brief research suggests that there is no minimum marriage age in Texas, though it requires parental consent under age 18 and a court order under age 16.

Child abuse?
I still haven't seen any indication, in the media, of any imminent danger of child abuse that existed at the FLDS ranch that justified state seizure of over 400 children.

I think that there is ample evidence that the FLDS group had a pattern and practice of violating the Texas "indecency" statute posted earlier by talent scout. I could see this justifying taking young girls of ages 11 to 17 into protective custody. But what is the justification for seizing younger girls, and boys as well?

Interesting
I find it interesting that LDS members seem happy to assert that FLDS believers are not really "Mormons," while the same LDS members seem outraged if some Christians assert that LDS believers are not really "Christians."

Aren't the situations perfectly analogous?

-- In the opinion of many LDS members, the beliefs of FLDS members are sufficiently different that they are outside the LDS members' definition of "Mormon."

-- In the opinion of many Christians, the belief of LDS members are sufficiently different that they are outside the LDS members' definition of "Christian."


keeping secrets
Someone posted the following:

The Mothers
I find myself highly critical of these FLDS mothers. They looks so innocent and yet they are not. To my mind, they are just as bad or worse than the men because they will not protect their daughters, and they simply throw away their sons. And they teach their children to keep secrets, to lie, and to give up their own free will in subordinance to a "prophet".


If by teaching them to keep secrets, etc, you refer to refusals by the children to answer questions about their identity, or any other matter, I don't blame them. As a parent who has been the target multiple times of harrassment by a vindictive non custodial mother who used CPS as her weapon of choice, not only have I trained our children to refuse to answer any questions of anyone not approved by their dad & I, but they do not answer the door or the phone anymore, either. Further, they know that if anyone shows up in a DHS car, or with a clipboard full of paper trying to speak to them, they are to run inside, lock the door, and get their dad or me.

I don't agree with the beliefs of this group of people, but they are being unfairly targeted because they are not part of the mainstream. Fundamental Christians are also targeted. Who will be next?

to Reasonable People
The following is posted on a blog identified below:
"Just because we think a group is distasteful does not mean that all methods should be tolerated in the supperession of that group. We must be ever wary of arming the government with tools and weapons that might someday be turned on us. We cannot always assume we, or reasonable people, will always be in control of the government."
redstate.com/blogs/cicero

homeschoolmom
"Who will be next?"

Everyone that is American. And they have already started in the last few months and then really made a huge push in the last few weeks. Randomly searching people on the streets, forcibly taking their DNA, all across the country. Random road blocks, questioning drivers, taking their DNA, blocking off entire streets, searching everyone, taking their DNA, searching business', taking belongings etc... All for the war on terror.

Now I'm not saying it is for a local murderer, as had been its excuse used before, but now for the WOT. Yes, the sole reason, is to search for terrorist in American nieghborhoods and roadways. Now this does not seem logical, because the friggin borders are wide open.

All done with local, state and federal police, working in unison. Google it and you will see.

I guess the conspiracy nuts were right all along and the war on terror, has become a war on us and the laws passed since 911, are directed and being used against us.

Heres anther thought
You people do realise, that Black Water Security recieved a billion dollar contract, from Home Land Security, to perform police actions in the USA? You all know that right?

You know, the group of mercenaries, that officially don't have to follow the law, when we are in a WOT abroad and now domesticaly.

Y'all understand that right?

this is the same group where 600 of them, were fully armed with automatic weapons, policing the streets of New Orleans. The state and local police told them to disarm and they refused, citing the WOT. Homeland Security backed them up.

Welcome to Bush's New World Order. Well thats what the conspiracy nuts are saying.

Oh ya
one more thing. Y'all do realise that any misdomeanor or felony, is considered a terrorist act, according to the Patriot Act 1 and 2?

So go ahead and refuse to give your DNA, next time you are pulled over for speeding or questioned on the street and see what happens.

Don't believe me?
Do a google search on "Operation Sudden Impact". As that was just done in the last few days.

Show me the Money!
It seems to me that this whole thing is about the money. I could care less if a man has five wives and thirty children, as long as he fully financially supports all his wives and children. If he is getting thirty (or sixty!) government checks a month, all I can say is “What a Country!”
What is truly immoral is for the government to take my tax money at the point of a gun and give it to a woman to enable her to go into the business of giving birth to multiple bastards. I believe they justify milking the welfare system as “bleeding the beast.”
They are total hypocrites because their way of life would be gone in two years without the avalanche of government checks provided by the “beast.” If they were running a “puppy mill”, they would might get into trouble, but apparently running a “illegitimate child mill” is just fine and dandy.

A Libertarian View
As a libertarian, I look at the FLDS situation from several different angles.

First, the greatest "sin" of the FLDS is that they are welfare cheating deadbeats. They collect welfare for each of their wives and children, thus making all of us support their particular lifestyle. In this way, they are similar to inner city gangs, who have babies on the taxpayer's dime.

Second, there is nothing inherently wrong with polygamy, so long as it is practiced voluntarily by all parties, all of whom agree to take care of the resulting children. Please don't bore me with protestations that adult women in these communes can't say no. So long as no one is forcing them, through physical threats, to engage in polygamy, there should be no legal repercussions. They are, after all, adults.

Polygamy was practiced by most of the holy men in the Bible. It is still a common practice in many parts of the world.

In the case of the FLDS, children were taken from their mothers, who supposedly were also the "victims" of polygamy. These mothers begged officials to give them back their children, even promising to leave the compound to be allowed to do so. But, when the state can get away with sheer tyranny against an unpopular minority, it will do so every time. There is no reason these children have to be separated from their mothers.

The whole brouhaha, it turns out, was touched off by the prank call from a woman in Colorado, who has done this sort of thing before. But, give the state an excuse, and they will bring down the hammer, even if the excuse proves false.

My approach to the FLDS would be to let them live as they please, so long as they are not harming anyone else, and are not bilking the taxpayers.

This is what judgedred speaks of


quote:
In an unprecedented event among law enforcement agencies in Tennessee, Mississippi and Arkansas, Deputies with the Shelby County Sheriff’s Office will coordinate a regional crime suppression initiative this weekend that will involve Officers from more than 50 federal, state and local agencies.

“This is the first time a regional effort of this magnitude has ever been conducted. We are proud to be the coordinating agency for ‘Operation Sudden Impact.’ We’ll use this weekend’s initiative as a starting point to begin a routine of sharing crime information among the various agencies, said Shelby County Sheriff Mark H. Luttrell, Jr.

During “Operation Sudden Impact,” the police agencies from six counties in the tri-state area will simultaneously round up fugitives, conduct traffic safety checkpoints and be involved in other crime abatement programs starting Saturday, April 12 at 7 a.m. and ending 24 hours later at 7 a.m. the next day.

The names of those who are arrested, issued traffic citations or noted in other criminal activity will then be reviewed by Intelligence Officers ...

“... Our community is considered an international distribution center and is a possible target for terrorists. ‘Operation Sudden Impact’ will help us prepare for that possibility,” said Captain Dale Lane, ...


http://www.shelby-sheriff.org/press_releases/operationsudde nimpact.asp

America was built on separation of powers.
Not the incorporation of powers as the "Homeland Security" which ignores illegal immigration, and focus's on traveling American Citizens ID,s and body cracks and crevices.

This Texas "police operation" was right out of a Military style operation, and not a police "investigation".

Investigation? ha ha
It was an arrest and conviction, now headed for lip service to justify it all.
By the media and the LEO's involved.

One question
Paolo writes: 10:01 PM
A Libertarian View


First, the greatest "sin" of the FLDS is that they are welfare cheating deadbeats. They collect welfare for each of their wives and children, thus making all of us support their particular lifestyle. In this way, they are similar to inner city gangs, who have babies on the taxpayer's dime.
---------
Where did you find the information they are on welfare and how many of them were?

I want to read it for myself, seeing this so far is just one more rumor.

5th Amendment is gone for these Texans
Written to keep the Government from abusing its power over the citizen.

When the Government no longer is kept in check by its own Charter, we will not have any rights but what they State is willing to give us all.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


This part:
"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"

Has been dismissed for these Texans over their religious beliefs.


Oh great
Now this thread has drawn the attention of the village idiot.
Go drool on another thread robert

Sharia Compound coming to a town near u
"In a recent lecture by the Archbishop of Canterbury he indicated the inevitability of Sharia law playing a role alongside British law for Muslims living in Great Britain. Its acceptance could allow Muslim citizens to be held to the laws of Islam rather than the laws of the nation in which they live." Tom Essenburg

What the devil are all of you thinking? What the devil has gotten into you? It is illegal to marry someone who is already married; it is illegal to use minors for sexual gratification; and I am not inclined to disbelieve that other horrendous conditions existed, with the state authorities having probable cause. Shall we next dote over female circumsision, removal of limbs for theft, polygamy, and the barring of women from even giving testimony in court of crimes committed against them?

Good points, Vttrium
Tolerance and even enthusiasm for alien cultures is what will, in the end, destroy the nation gifted us by the Founding Fathers. Barack was heard the other to say in a speech: "E pluribus unum" and everyone cheered.

But multi-culturalism is the bain of our national life right now, in my opinion. "Out of many, one" only works if folks are willing to assimilate into the common culture.

Down here on the border, it's "reconquista" and flying the Mexican flag. In other areas, a push for Shariah Law. Among the so-called elites, a disdain for American exceptionalism, whose most significant export has been freedom and democracy.

It's an interesting irony: the very freedom we hold so dearly is the very thing that could cause our demise. John Adams et al will be proven to be correct: Only a moral people can make democracy work.


Yttrium
Sorry to misspell your handle. It's getting kinda late.

I made myself clear as a bell
Yttrium writes: 11:47 PM


What the devil are all of you thinking? What the devil has gotten into you? It is illegal to marry someone who is already married; it is illegal to use minors for sexual gratification; and I am not inclined to disbelieve that other horrendous conditions existed, with the state authorities having probable cause.
--------
ts:
This is true
I have yet to see a Court Convict them of this crime as of today.
Come to think of it, I have not even heard of a single charge on that issue against any man there, or woman.
What I do see is the State has already taken the children away without the due process of a conviction FIRST.

In other words, so you can understand this, they have already been declared guilty, and the children have already been placed in others home.
All without a conviction by DUE PROCESS OF THE LAW.

Now ya get what I am thinking?
Simple if you will think about it, and how you would want the law to work for you if you were charged with some crime.




-----------


Yttrium writes:

Shall we next dote over female circumsision, removal of limbs for theft, polygamy, and the barring of women from even giving testimony in court of crimes committed against them?
-----
ts:
What you talking about.
Try dealing with the known facts of this case, they are not muslims.

talent scout
talent scout, your troubles I hope will not be wasted on me.

However, this island of "religious" (and illegal) practices will indeed roll out the royal carpet to all who desire to come to our country and flout our laws, both state and federal.

This wildfire assumption that there is no evidence of abuse is yet to be substantiated. I am inclined to believe that the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed. That remains to be seen.

And actually, I trust the international implications of this case are not lost on you.

KG
K.G., your thought is appreciated. I am not yet fatalistic that the "US is ready to fall like a rotten fruit."

And you can misspell my handle anytime! :)
I even mispronounce it...

consent/marriage laws
I assume the state can only prosecute polygamy if someone is legally married to more than one person. From what I understand, few if any, of these people are legally married.

The state of TX is one of many states that allow a parent to legally consent to the marriage of their minor child at ages 16 or 17. There is no exception for those raised in cults that I am aware of.

As I understand it, the age of consent in TX was only recently changed to 17 from 14, so I think that may be relevant depending on when these alleged crimes took place. Does anyone know for sure?

As far as I know, there is no law in any state that says an 18+ year old cannot consent to sex or marriage if (s)he was raised in a cult.

As far as I know, there is no law that says the age of consent laws do not apply to those raised in cults.

There are no laws I know of that 1) define a cult and 2)forbid parents from joining and raising their children in a cult.

rumors vs. hard evidence
So much discussion about this case begins with "Well, we know.." but here in AZ we've heard tales of these people for years. The stories change all the time and sometimes contradict.

We've heard they have mutant kids from inbreeding who are so disabled they cannot feed themselves, that they all get married as teenagers to teenagers, that all the girls marry older men, that the boys are thrown out, that the boys all work as slave labor for the rest of their lives to fund the few elites, that all the money comes from welfare, that all the money comes from oil, that there's no way to escape, that the escapees make money off their books, that the women never leave the compounds, they never get medical help and many die in childbirth at the compounds,that mainstream Mormons in UT see these women in grocery stores and hospitals,etc.

Everyone seems to "KNOW" so much about a group of people few have ever seen, much less interacted with.

Here in AZ we have testimony from actual escapees and "Lost Boys." First hand accounts, yet our state hasn't removed children like this. CPS here is not shy about pulling kids out of bad situations, so what evidence does the state of TX have the at AZ doesn't after years of investigations and interviews with those WILLING to tell their stories and name names?

It seems to me the state of TX is viewing rumors as reasons for warrants, and then removing ALL children, not just the children allegedly abused by their parents.

Nothing is lost but Civil Rights
Yttrium writes: 2:07 AM
talent scout
talent scout, your troubles I hope will not be wasted on me.
--------
ts;
No trouble
But hope you can comprehend the point of innocent until proven guilty before the law.
If not, only an accusation against you and the State taking your kids being justified by this accusation will allow you to understand the pain these people are enduring, all illegally bypssing due process.

------------
Yttrium writes:
However, this island of "religious" (and illegal) practices will indeed roll out the royal carpet to all who desire to come to our country and flout our laws, both state and federal.
-----
ts:
This is drama
And you need to view this as a very personal and real problem for some American Citizens.
Like that fact or not, they deserve equal protection of the law just as you do.

-----------
Yttrium writes:
This wildfire assumption that there is no evidence of abuse is yet to be substantiated. I am inclined to believe that the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed. That remains to be seen.
--------
ts;
THIS IS WHY WE HAVE COURTS!
No guilt has yet BEEN FOUND BY DUE PROCESS!
Open your ears up!
---------
Yttrium writes:
And actually, I trust the international implications of this case are not lost on you.
---------
ts:
I will trust you to get real and deal with it as it now exists.
I will not follow along with your silly arguments, as they have no bearing on the basics of this one case.
Innocent UNTIL proven GUILTY.

more troubling questions
Why did law enforcement NOT locate the source of that call immediately?

I find it very unsettling that a woman called asking for help in an abuse situation and the authorities didn't confirm exactly where she was immediately. What if she really was in trouble and in her terror gave the wrong address because she misspoke by a digit? What if she didn't know her location? What if she was so terrified or hurt she couldn't clearly speak to give her location?

Homeschoolers deal with these legal issues frequently. Disgruntled employees, estranged relatives, and angry neighbors have pulled these stunts hundreds of times. This is familiar territory to anyone keeping up to date on HSLDA's publications and websites. Warrants are not supposed to be issued over anonymous calls. When they are, all innocent Americans are at risk.

"It's rampant in the culture" is a flimsy excuse. Sexual abuse of minors is rampant in mainstream American culture. The stats are shocking. So, are we going to send CPS to every home in America? Just because something is commonly happening in a society at large does not AUTOMATICALLY mean it is happening in every single individual situation within that community.

If all women in that culture are subject to abuse, then why not remove the women WITH their children into safe facilities?

As a formerly certified foster parent in AZ I can tell you the process takes MONTHS. Is the state of TX going to subject the new applicants it likely needs to handle these children by eliminating part of the screening process? Which background checks, home studies, and application interviews will it skip to speed things along? If it goes by the book, then what will they do for the time it takes to get people certified?