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Friday, September 01, 2006
Rich Lowry :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Party Of Defeat
by Rich Lowry
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On Iraq, the Democrats are the party of defeat. That's not a partisan smear, but a fact.

The further we slide toward defeat, the higher the Democrats' political fortunes rise. To the extent they offer any clear policy alternative for Iraq, it is either — depending on your point of view — to admit, or to guarantee, defeat with a rapid drawdown of American troops. So, their political self-interest objectively coincides with a defeat, and the kind of pullout endorsed at times by high-profile leaders in the party would hasten it.

The Democrats don't offer stirring rhetoric about the need for victory and for stalwartness in the face of setbacks, but instead a dreary recitation of mistakes in the war leavened with little hope or positive policy proposals. They don't talk of the need of maintaining our national will or the need for patience in waging a difficult and irregular war, but emphasize our casualties and the fact that the Iraq War has already dragged on longer than World War II.

Now, it's not that the Bush administration hasn't made mistakes, or that optimists (including myself at times) haven't often been wrong, or that we don't face the possibility of losing. It is perfectly reasonable as a matter of principle for those Democrats who originally opposed the war to want, as they see it, to cut our losses. And it would be scurrilous to accuse Democrats of hoping for defeat. But Democrats demonstrate no appetite for doing anything serious to help resist that calamitous eventuality.

Politically, Iraq is a loser for Republicans, except for the bright spot that the American public is not yet ready to quit. A CNN poll in August found that 69 percent of Americans oppose withdrawing American troops by the end of the year, and 66 percent believe that we can win the war there. This is the point of leverage from which the White House can, and will, attempt to lighten the political weight of the war.

Democrats try to defend themselves from the charge of defeatism in three unpromising ways. First, they hit back hard against any perceived attack. When Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld gave a speech warning against "moral confusion" in the war on terror and asking whether violent extremists can be appeased, Democrats reacted with an overly defensive outrage. Whenever someone mentions morally confused appeasers, do their ears burn?

Second, they keep their policy prescriptions vague. Top Democrats John Murtha, Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry — as well as Connecticut Democratic Senate candidate Ned Lamont — all have endorsed a pullout within months. If Murtha had had his way back in November 2005, when he first advocated a six-month drawdown, U.S. troops would have left in May, and Iraq already would be in the books as a lost war. Subsequently, all of these Democrats have shifted to advocate, along with most of the party, a nonspecific timetable for withdrawal. This is a transparent way station toward advocating a pullout whenever it becomes politically palatable (say, after a Democratic victory in November).

Finally, Democrats balance their pessimistic calls for troop withdrawals in Iraq with resolute advocacy in favor of more troops in Afghanistan. But there is no logical cause to favor the war in Afghanistan over the one in Iraq, given that both involve fighting terrorist insurgencies with a strong ethnic element in wars that will drag on for years and have been getting harder recently.

There is one obvious way for the Democrats to bury charges of defeatism. It would be for the bulk of the party to swing around to an affirmative strategy for victory and for the party's leaders to support it energetically. That, of course, will never happen. If the Democrats sweep in the fall, it will be a sign that the American public has begun to give up entirely on Iraq — and an eventual U.S. loss there will be marked, appropriately, by the ascendance here at home of the party of defeat.

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About The Author
Rich Lowry is author of Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years .
 
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If you're a liberal
And you're reading this, I ask you to imagine your nightmare USA. Think about the WORST conservative administration you can imagine -- maybe President Jerry Falwell, Secretary of State Pat Robertson, Secretary of Defense Oliver North, Attorney General Ann Coulter. What do you see?

Women with the status of cattle?

Slavery legal?

Religious conversion forced at threat of death?

End of freedom of speech & press?

Given the rhetoric from the left, probably so.

ALL of the above ARE CURRENT REALITIES in dar-al-Islam. AND THEY WANT TO BRING IT HERE.

Now, since that is indeed the case, why are you against the fight? (Don't waste our time arguing you're not.)

Repubs/Cons Cant Define Iraq Victory
Republicans keep talking about achieving a resounding "victory" in the Iraq War and
"staying the course" until the job is done.
All of that sounds great until you ask them
to define exactly what they mean by that and to give a estimate of how long it will take to achieve it.

There usual reaction is to start accusing the questioner of being a "defeatist coward" who wants to "cut and run" giving a "victory" to the
islamofacist terrorists.

That is basically nonsense because sooner or later the Iraqi people are going to have to stand up for their country. If the care so much to have a democratic form of government then THEY
should FIGHT for it.

Democrats, liberals and the anti war activist are just using common sense. They rightly see the situation in Iraq to be a negative for the U.S. It is logical to set goals of achievements, benchmarks and yes a timetable for the Iraqi people to take over and for withdrawal of U.S. troops.

It really doesnt matter that the so called Islamofacist or think they have acheived a victory if the U.S. leaves because they havent. It really doesnt matter that the Bushites think they have to achieve a "victory" in Iraq because their definition of it is vague and when the "job is done" and U.S. troops leave Iraq is going to dissolve into civil war anyway.

Furthermore nothing going on in Iraq is going to stop another terrorist attack on the domestic U.S. anyway. That is Bush/Republican propaganda and the majority of the american public isnt buyint it.

Don't give up yet on November
It's not time yet to give up the ghost on November. One must account for the Democrats uncanny ability to trip themselves up.

I am sad to say
That I have come to believe our President lied us into war. Click on my name to link to the blog where I lay out detailed and documented evidence of the lies and crimes of the President. Let me know what you think.

Lowry Lies
Lowry writes:

"A CNN poll in August found that 69 percent of Americans oppose withdrawing American troops by the end of the year..."

Interesting, because this is what the CNN poll *actually* said:

"Sixty-one percent, however, said they believed at least some U.S. troops should be withdrawn from Iraq by the end of the year. Of those, 26 percent said they would favor the withdrawal of all troops, while 35 percent said not all troops should be withdrawn."

You know what the plank one in the Democratic plan for Iraq is: tell the truth. Bush (as well as his supporters like Lowry) might want to try that some day.

What a Bunch of Garbage
First, the Republicans pull the country into an ill-advised war in Iraq based on faulty intelligence purposely puffed-up to inflate an imminent threat that never existed.
Then, they lose the war through sheer incompetence, willful blindness, ignorance and corruption.
And when a majority of the people in this country finally wake up to the disaster created by the current administration, they point their fingers at the opposition party and call them the "party of defeat" for having the gall to state the obvious: that the Bush adminstration has no strategy for victory in Iraq.
Let's hear it for "The Buck Stops Over There" presidency of George W. Bush.

Rich....
.....what is the goal now? Why are we still in Iraq at this point? What have we to gain referring a fight that precedes us by centuries? What are we doing about the massive amount of greed and corruption going on in Iraq that is costing you and I billions each week? Okay Rich, keep a blind eye towards that fact.

My point that I have consistently brought into these discussions in Town Hall is simply we took our collective eye off of the ball. Instead of going after Al Qaeda, we go into Iraq and so far, we have made a shambles of the war against terror, or whatever cutesy slogan the neo cons want to present. Party of defeat? That would be the Republicants.

And Doc, the only thing I can say after reading your post is it sounds like you're talking about the current state of affairs in Afghanistan. So instead of helping rebuild Afghanistan and giving them support, all we see now is a resurgence of the Taliban, the poor morale of the peoples in Afghanistan, and the booming opium industry there.

So after the current rule by the neo cons in this country, how can you all say you want to continue this trend? It is appalling. I say we need to go back to catching, or killing those with affiliations to Al Qaeda. Period. The hell with Iraq.

If this were football...
...the Democrats would leave the field in the middle of the third quarter just because the opposing team scored a couple of touchdowns.

If this were football...
the Republicans would be in the wrong stadium playing baseball.

If this were football
It wouldn't matter, because it would not cause thousands of deaths, or the destruction of civilizations. You are not at war with IslamoFacists or radical Islam. Unfortunately for you, they are at war with Western liberalism. Frankly, they have very few objections to the positions of the KKK and the Nazi party. It is the positions of the moderates and liberals that are truly hated.

Color me scurrilous
Sorry, Rich, but Democrats do, indeed, hope for defeat, and are doing everything in their power to bring that defeat about. Observe their glum faces after massive election turnouts in Iraq, and their attempts to spin it as bad news. Ditto the death of Al Zarqawi. How about an official Democrat "response" to the speech delivered to the US Congress by Iraq's democratically elected Prime Minister, as if he were a political opponent to be discredited? Why the constant attempts to trash our troops by high-level Democrats? No, they are politically invested in our defeat and hope for it almost as much as they hope for bad economic news.

The terrorists, of course, know this. They know that they cannot possibly defeat coalition troops or stem the inexorable tide of democracy in Iraq without the help and assistance of usefull idiots on the Left. They know that as long as they are capable of setting off a single road side bomb, liberals will scream that we have lost and must retreat immediatley. They have one, and only one, hope of winning--hold on for 2 more years and pray to Allah that a Democrat wins the Presidency.

the party of no ideas or will
Isn't it more likely that the Dems in power would change their minds, and rather than be responsible for a military disaster, decide to heed the military advisors and try to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat?

tanabear sleeps on
who needs an assualt on the Eastern Seabord when you cna cause massive disruption via some relatively simple terrorist act, like flying a plane into a building? I thought it was the Dems who say that we fighting an old-fashioned war. But you expect an invasion? How positively WWII.

tanabear sleeps on
who needs an assault on the Eastern Seabord when you can cause massive disruption via some relatively simple terrorist act, like flying a plane into a building? I thought it was the Dems who say that we are fighting an old-fashioned war. But you expect an invasion? How positively WWII.

"If this were football the Republicans
would be in the wrong stadium playing baseball."

And the lefties would be in the stands cheering on the opponent.

Cynewulf
Re:"If this were football the Republicans"
LOL! Shows how screwed up things are.

Is there a strategy to win in Iraq?
For years and at least one presidential election Democrats have called for the administration's plan regarding Iraq. Time after time the president and more recently the Sec Def have clearly articulated that we will not leave Iraq until that nation chooses to and is able to stand against terrorist elements in and around Iraq.
If I am to vote for a Democrat these next two election cycles I will need to be convinced of the inevitable victory THEIR plan will bring about.
I'm still waiting...

Put me in coach
The Democaliban don't need a plan to win in Iraq. They have a well defined plan to lose. That is all they need.

Lies? You bet there were!
Now that it has become widely known (except to Dems and the mainstream media) that it was ambassador Wilson and and a former Sec of State employee/busybody who 'outed' the non-covert agent Valerie Plame we can put away the lies about the lies.
Turns out the Bush administration did not lie in the famous sixteen words in the state of the union speech and that it was Wilson himself who did lie.

"The Wilson fantasy was reported for years, as fact, in countless set up pieces to fawning interviews with Wilson. That reporting had very real consequences. It was Joe Wilson's claim that Bush lied about the “16 words” that started the "Bush lied" mantra. We now know that many of the claims that "Bush lied" were actually lies themselves, but that has gotten scant little attention." Katherine Ham

It is now the 'scurrilous' Dems who pant for power and will lie about anything to retrieve it. That and a lack of a 'plan' - any plan - cannot win an election.


Here's the ball, Jeff!
Jeff is right! The only plan the Dems have is to get themselves elected - even by allowing terrorits free reign - and run this nation into a socialist state - led by elitists who have the noble 'right' to define what freedom is for the rest of us.
Their plan is clear, lose the war and pin it on the president.
The conservatives (well, all but New England's Rhinos and one or two in the mid eastern states) put the Dems feet to the fire a few months ago by calling a Congressional vote to retreat from Iraq. Of the nine who voted for it were the illustrious junior Senator from Massachusettes. When it comes to facing the American public are not confident enough in their own nitwit banter to actually vote for it.
How can I possibly vote for one who lacks the spine to vote their own vitriolic non-sense?

On the other hand...
Let's explore what it will look like if the Dems are able to lie a Clinton back into the White House.
We might see some interesting cabinet positions:

Secretary of Defeat - Congressman Murtha
Secretary of Shame - Howard Dean, DNC chair
Secretary of Shakedown - Reverend Jackson
Secretary of polls - Former president 'I feel your pain' Clinton - that is if he does not replace Kofi Annan
Ambassador to the UN - Jim Jeffords, Independent embicile
Ambassador to Iraq - Baghdad Jim McDermott, congressman, Washington
Oil For Fraud ministry - Kofi Annan - re-appointment
Secretary of the Inferior - John Kerry
CIA chief - Joe Wilson
FBI chief - Mark Rice, Clinton pardon
Chief of presidential security - Senator Kennedy
The list could go on...


What the libs can't seem to understand
Is that Muslims hate other Muslims sometimes MORE than they hate us. And they are physically closer to them. Much easier to get to them.

Plus, the tribes of Afghanistan are cutthroats. More than most nations. They take 'my dad can beat your dad' to an extreme never thought of by western civ.

So we have BOTH sectarian and tribal differences to deal with. And these conflicts go back hundreds of years!


The Democrats Share Any Blame
They voted for the war, too! Anything the Republicans did, the Democrats did as well. Does anyone think the President alone has the power to sustain a war without the approval of the Congress for more than 60 days?

That approval came almost unanimously from both Democrats and Republicans. No one was dragged into this war - we thrusted ourselves into it with both the left and the right feet.

Like VietNam
Way too often the neo-libs compare a current war ( doesn't matter which one) to VietNam.

They say it's a Civil War.
They say peace will reign if only we would get out.
The other side are peaceloving peoples.
Our soldiers are commiting war crimes.

Food for thought. How many of the statements have you hear since Tet, oops I mean 9/11/2001.

COACH YOU FORGOT TO MENTION

That the entire cabinet would be under the supervision of the ACLU. I believe that would be called communist regime. Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

We have won in Iraq!
Everyone (ie the media) has forgotten how long the Allies had to occupy Germany & Japan after WW II was "over". That is where we are at in Iraq today. No one in the media wants to dig up any the stories about the "Werewolves" that stalked our troops in post-war Germany. The face of war has changed, but politics, and politicians are still playing the same old, tiring game. Politics dragged us in to WW II, and terrorism dragged us into the war on terror (WW III). I maintain that terrorism is politics on steroids.

Left Angle...
taken by itself, your post makes a lot of sense.

However, taken in context of the "Left" (which you identify yourself with) it is untrustworthy and will be dismissed by most people.

That's the legacy of the Left. Like the MSM, you have shown a propensity for putting power over principle so often that you no longer have the credibilty even when you may be right.

You reap what you sow.


Left Angle
I should say "WE reap what you sow". Unfortunately, we all suffer as a result of your myopic vision.

Dissent is crucial in a democratic republic but if it has no credibilty it is just demagoguery.

Coach:
You missed one VERY IMPORTANT post:

Secretary of Apology: Bill Clinton

Power is dangerous for the undisiplined
I see it in Massachusetts, the liberal democrats have no wisdom, no discipline. They are making life for the citizens of Massachusetts, A living hell. They have corrupted everything from our protection on the roadways, The Big Dig, to our family life. They have destroyed what it means to be parnets and our rights to bring up our children in an intellegent and moral way. The deom-liberals show their true colors by their relentless temper tantrums in public office. They make no sense and defend their right to do so. I really can't understand how any-one would want them to represent them as a citizen of their state. Our state is crumbling and all they have to offer is quick fix soulions to stay in Power to create more havoc.

So, Elroy...
How's things down at the compound? Militia training coming along OK? Hope you managed to avoid that fluoridated water. Gotta compliment you on the manifesto...makes Koresh and the Unibomber shed tears. And keep that picture of the Fuhrer polished...the Jews are coming to get you!

Jeff
I clicked. ;->

John Galt is correct . . .
in his analysis of the Socialist-Democrat Party's (formerly the Democratic Party) stance on the Islamofascist War.

The S-D's want people to think that Iraq and Afghanistan are two completely different unrelated actions. Kali posted (9-1, 2:04 PM) that we should leave Iraq and go fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan. When did we leave Afghanistan, Kali? When have we stopped fighting al Qaeda?

This is a global war. It's been fought on American soil as well as Middle East sand. Remember 911? Tanabear writes (9-1, 11:32) he doesn't think the Mahdi Army would be making amphibious assaults on the New Jersey coast. No, Tanabear, not now or even next week, but if we did give the Islamofascists enough time (as we did Hitler), eventually they'll get around to it.

The S-D's are banking on our defeat in the Mid East so they can come to the American people and say, "See, those Republicans can't do anything right. Elect us and you'll see change." The problem is they don't define "change". It's the "White Knight Strategy" where the S-D's want us all to be so very miserable that we'll elect ANYBODY rather than Republicans.

Different War
There is a great deal of gnashing of teeth about the “war” in Iraq. Folks, it isn’t a war. The war to destroy western civilization has been ongoing for decades, and we still can’t recognize that. What is occurring in Iraq is simply one campaign in that war.
As far as comparing Iraq to Vietnam, we could leave Vietnam with impunity. The only people who suffered were the few million innocent Asians who were murdered, and the millions more who were enslaved. But, that didn’t affect us, save that our actions may have been noted by those who might wish to be our allies.
Any perception of failure on our part strengthens those who wish to destroy us. (Remember Somalia?) If we fail in Iraq we will not be able to retreat with impunity.

ACHTUNG!
SEIG HEIL, Elroy!

Raidencraig
Perhaps instead of taking up several pages of space, you could simply paste a link to the article, then comment on what's there with words of your own. Come on man, you're better than this.

Elroy, nice. Give him a hand people. Another sterling example of the ubiquitous unhinged moonbat.

And lastly, let's appreciate the irony of the left leaning posters providing absolute confirmation of the article's contention. Well done Lefties, the more you rant, the more you confirm the thesis. Bravo!

Can't define Iraq Victory?
Left Angle writes

Repubs/Cons Cant Define Iraq Victory Republicans keep talking about achieving a resounding "victory" in the Iraq War and "staying the course" until the job is done.
All of that sounds great until you ask them to define exactly what they mean by that and to give a estimate of how long it will take to achieve it.
===============================
Actually, we had the resounding victory in the Iraq war and now that we are an ally of the new government (they are in charge of who, where, and how hard we hit), we have specific goals. Outside of the military goal of training officers to adequately lead the new Iraq army, we have the goal of lending support to the rebuilding of the infrastructure, while we are there supporting the Iraq army.

As we have seen, more and more of the military operations are being taken over by Iraq. It is not the training of the troops that is taking so long, but rather, the training of officers. As we all know, it takes years, even here in the U.S.. to train an officer and years for them to have the experience to move up in ranks to properly oversee lower rank officers. This is the biggest job, and most complex job in the construction of an army the citizens of Iraq can depend on.

You also have the time we are there, being used to give the 3 groups in government time to build a relationship from scratch after the first elections. Much like the wrangling between Democrats and Republicans (plus far right and left members of those two parties) we have 3 groups learning how to use government to resolve the problems Iraq faces. We will “stand down,” as they take over and we have been doing just that. As everyone knows the “war” in Iraq is more against Iraqi’s now than U.S. troops and concentrated near the seat of government while the outlying areas of Iraq have been quite peaceful relative to Baghdad and its surrounding communities. Even we saw our "founding differences" evolve into a civil war here.

The resounding victory in Iraq now? Economic stability is the manin victory that is left uncompleted. Terrorism will go on even after we leave, but the Iraq army and security forces will deal with them.

While great advances have been made and other nations are making deals and business is growing and the Iraq stock market has come alive, there is still the threat to the oil fields as is the case in many nations now that al-Qaeda has targeted all oil nations they can get people into. Sudan and Nigeria being recent news items of al-Qaeda’s targeting of oil fields, there are many others in the middle east that except for heavy guarding, would be targeted as well.

However, “the plan” is an Iraq plan, as it should be, since we are just an ally and not in control of Iraq. Here is “the current plan.”
Quote:
Main points of Iraq's peace plan
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has unveiled his plan for national reconciliation, which he hopes will quell the sectarian violence rocking the country.
Here are the main points of his plan:
Amnesty for detainees not involved in terrorist acts, war crimes or crimes against humanity, as long as they condemn violence and pledge to respect the law. Negotiations with the US-led coalition to prevent the violation of human and civil rights in military operations. Compensation for those harmed by terrorism, military operations and violence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5114932.stm
========================-

There are about 28 items in that plan if you want to read them all. But, the point is, “our victory” is dependent on “their victory.” It is also dependent on their government saying we are no longer wanted. Like our government, it has elected representatives and is not a “pure democracy.” Like our government, they have a Constitution and it has to be followed but, the government is who will decide when we are no longer welcome, not some “poll” of the people here or there.
Quote:
Iraqi leaders have also said consistently that U.S. troops should leave as soon as the U.S.-trained Iraqi army is ready to fight the insurgency and defend the country, but have estimated that it could take from 18 months to five years.

"The great desire of the Iraqi people is to see the coalition forces be on their way out as they take more responsibility," Jafari said at a news conference with Rumsfeld after their noon meeting in Baghdad.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/27/AR2005072700431.html
======================================
The article points out that we feel significant withdrawal could occur next spring or summer. As you can see, Iraq is not as optimistic but their desire is to take over and then we leave. The thing is, there is a plan, there is a strategy and Iraq, not the U.S. is the main determining factor because we are there to support their new government in the attempt to build an Iraqi, not U.S. economic example for the middle east.

Risky? Yes. But, seldom is there great advance without great risk. It is like the “Chinese” internet stock I bought for $7,000 or about 10% of all my money. They were saying China had to slow down because it had been booming for a decade already. So, I was going “against the odds,” just as some say we are in Iraq. Yet, a year and a few months later, I had $45,000 and sold it. Well, we are trying to win a war on terror and that will take economic weapons, and military, but in the longer run, economic will be the main weapon if this war is to be won. Can that happen? Look at Dubai, Singapore and some of the other places that are booming. Dubai has 95% Muslim population and they came there from all over the middle-east. Women are educated (in their own college) and serve in both business and government. The 95% Muslims are living with Christians and Hindu and other faiths. They are even engaged in trade deals with Israel.

Can that happen in Iraq? If it does, it will be a resounding victory but it will be years before we know if it worked. A booming economy doesn’t spring up over night and with a new government and civil unrest being nurtured by Iran and Syria since they want control of Iraq’s oil, it will be touch and go for quite a while. But, the risk is certainly worth the effort and even the loss of lives.

Regarding those in Congress that disagree with Bush’s strategy. Leaving “insults” aside, we need to look at our system of government and how it was designed during “war time.”

The Commander in Chief has virtually absolute power and can overrule Courts and even pardon our own military that might be found guilty of “war crimes” like assassinating some world leader, if he had been so “ordered” to do it. He can suspend “habeas corpus” as Lincoln did, who faces the same criticisms when he did and like “King George” was called “King Lincoln” by is advisories. The “check?” Impeachment. At anytime his “radical decisions” are too much for “we the people,” and enough of us complain to our Representatives, they can remove him as the Democrats correctly say the want to do. That is the correct method, whether you agree with Democrats or not. With the nation split on this issue, they know they can’t get the 2/3 Senate vote needed to find him guilty and remove him just as they didn’t with Clinton.

Short of impeachment, “pleading,” threats of impeachment, legislation that isn’t binding but persuasive, letters to editors, U.N. sanctions, etc. are all viable avenues to try and get the “Commander in Chief” to change his “war policies.” We see much of that and it is “the American way” but we as citizens need to understand the “absolute power” we gave the Commander in Chief but, not the President. If you read the Constitution it doesn’t say “in time of war,” but rather anytime “when called into the actual Service of the United States.” Our problem is that every President is virtually Commander in Chief non stop because we have a permanent military in “service” in Germany, Japan, Korea and many other places. We the people have the power to change that to “time of war” probably but, I don’t see the people getting emotional enough to amend the Constitution so, we will probably see what is going on now, go on for many more Presidents.

Theoretically, after a “war” the Commander in Chief would go back to just “President” and the army sent back to the states they came from. However, there is one more element to all this “war games” from the federal government and that concerns a representative government.

The decision to go to war or even police action or in the case of Iraq, to resume an ongoing war as Clinton did and then Bush did, is supposed to be made “behind closed doors.” Secrecy is the key to winning wars and a unified nation, at least publicly is another key. What we have seen is not in the best interests of our nation because we are sending the enemy information every day he can use for recruitment and morale building.

That is not to say our Representatives have to be “for the war” or “for the strategy.” In fact, I would be disappointed in my Representatives if they don’t question many things we do militarily. But, they are to do this behind closed doors because we are not a democracy but a representative Republic of States with a “general government” that is responsible for defense at the national level. One the decision behind closed doors has been reached, public support, even if continued arguing goes on behind closed doors, is in the best interest of the nation.

We are not a democracy but one of the goals of socialism is to make it that. As we find at the Socialist Party of the USA, website, they do want democracy.

Quote;
The Socialist Party strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community.
==========================
We also see why they are against “war.”

Quote:
We condemn war, preparation for war, and the militaristic culture because they play havoc with people's lives and divert resources from constructive social projects.
===================================

Their interest lies in social programs, not really in defense because they also believe you can negotiate with anybody if you just find what their real needs are. In this case the Islamic radicals have repeatedly told us their “real need.” They need all infidels either dead or serving Islam as they have said and done for centuries. This is not the goal of all or even the majority of Muslims as we see in places like Dubai. But, it is the goal of who we have to negotiate with.

What Kerry, Murtha, and others have done is technically “treason.” Not because of any deliberate attempt to give “aid and comfort” to the enemy but because with their intention of getting the voters upset enough to sway military decisions, they have given the enemy “aid and comfort,” never the less. No, they are not evil. I don’t think they should be tried for “treason.” But, technically, under our system of “representative” government, while we are using our military, public comments that show division to the enemy is “treason.” It is hard for “voters” in the day and age of socialism’s influence, to understand that principle of a “representative” government where only after the conflict is over, do we go public with all our fights, facts, and friction behind closed doors during the war.

Also, remember that in a war and an election, “we the people” do have a voice and if we don’t like what we see, we can replace our “representatives.” We can even replace them with representatives we feel will be 180 degrees out of phase with the current representative. But, anytime we put on the evening news a divided front, we give aid to the enemy in many ways. We encourage funding, more people joining the enemy, and encourage other nations to send or sell more weapons to the enemy. That is true of any war, any nation and not just the U.S. All wars have governments and people who will “capitalize” on the war and sell arms. We do it and so does Russia, England, France Germany, China, Venezuela, and many others. Any division, any hope any glimmer of eventually victory is always grabbed by the enemy or the “underdog,” to keep the battle going.

You difine "victory" by the goals. Economic stability, oil production rising, and the Iraq Army assuming full control of all areas of Iraq are the things that will define victory but they will all come in stages and there will be no "sudden" victory that "sends the enemy into oblivian" because the enemy is in too many countries and too dispersed to end their terrorism in any nation completely.

But, fortunately, the enemy has sent thousands to Iraq to try and stop their Constitutional, representative government from succeeding and thousands more of them have died than our troops. While the loss of any or our troops is tragic, the loss has been very small compared to the enemy and the goals we have set which have to include economic goals.

Withdraw the Troops!
From Korea!
From Japan!
From Germany!
From Italy!
From Cuba!
Where is the outcry to bring these troops home?

Why are we proposing withdrawing troops in active combat but seemingly have no problem with our forces remaining in many areas of prior conflicts for decades? What is so different about this conflict that allows the left to ignore the process followed in all previous conflicts? The only time we withdrew precipitiously (Vietnam), we LOST! Defeat the enemy, restore order, rebuild and transfer power back to the locals, then support and defend an ally. This seems to be a tried and true recipe for all of our successful campaigns. Why would we short circuit the processs by withdrawing before we have defeated the enemy?

Reasonable people can disagree whether we should have gone in. But we are in. Rooting for the enemy and investing political capital in our defeat is treasonous and evil. Reasonable people cannot disagree on that point.

To All
If you want to post 5,000 word dissertations, perhaps you should start your own blog instead of clogging the comment sections of articles with these verbose, rambling diatribes. It doesn't require a book to state your position (unless you are John Kerry).

Personally, I'm not reading any more comments that cannot be seen on a single frame on my browser. It's just not worth sorting through a hundred pounds of horse puckey in the hope of finding an ounce of meaningful debate that pertains to the topic at hand.

Elroy, Raidencrag, and Old Man have managed to print comments that are actually longer than the article upon which they are supposed to pertain.


Scottie's right . . .
keep it pithy.

Yea! Scottie
Isn't it sad that some people are so in need of an audience that they can't understand the value of succintness and brevity? Doesn't anybody else want to talk about the Washington Post's compicity in duping so many into "buying" Joe Wilson?

Plame blame game
Now that we know Joe Wilson and former Sec Def deputy, and gadfly, Armmitage were the one's who outed the non-covert agent Valerie Plame we can dispense with the Bush lied kids died non-sense.
It was Wilson's testimony regarding yellow cake uranium that led to the Bush lied mantra.
We now know it was Wilson who lied out of spite for slights he felt he receieved from the administration.
Where is the outrage now that the truth is out and the president is essentially vindicated?
Will Colon Powell, Armitage, Howard Dean and the MSM come clean?
Don't bet on it.

Wow, this aritcles' comments
tanabear, ElRoy and Reese. You are right, we should just give up and let the other guys have their way. What the heck we'll negotiate with them and things will be ok. We'll state our position that we do not want to convert to Islam (t least I will) and that will be ok, I'm sure they will agree, afterall, they have never really said they wanted us converted or dead. You probably wouldn't have liked me anyway.

Geeze, you guy should try to think sometime. Scottie hit it right, we have troops all over the world and I don't hear you complaining, nor do I hear Japan, Italy or Germany complaining that we have been occupying their country for too long, or even at all now that I think about it, in fact I think even they and their people appreciate what we did in WWII, i.e. WIN. Is that too mush to try for in the middle east. Can you not imagine what the ME could be like if we helped bring them into the real world and they found out that they could be part of the 21st century not trapped in the 11th? Think please.

Ed

Long comments
I do have a forum where people can support their statements. What good is a "statement" if you don't back it up. That is what liberals do. They make claims they can't support but if they say it often enough people start to believe them just from repetition.

Nobody makes you read anything you don't want to read but, I notice most people make unsubstanciated statements based on fiction and not fact or history. Maybe lmany, comments are short because many of them don't have the backgound at hand to support what they say.

If you notice, any comment a liberal doesn't like is made, they blow it off like there is no basis to it. Yet they don't support what they say either.

If you don't mind actually discussing an issue, that come and visit.
http://azrepublicanissues.forumsplace.com/index.html

You can actually back up what you say.


Scottie
Re: long comments. I'm with you on that. When I see one of these novel length postings I don't even bother to read it. If I wanted to read a book, I have a library full. I come here to read the columns and then the various comments. When the comments become longer than the column itself the purpose of this section is lost.
As you say, those who want to do this should create their own blog.

Old Man:
Of course your right. No one should make statements they can't back up with facts. But in my opinion, a link should be provided to the source. As you have done on your recent post. Your post makes for a quick read, and those wishing more can continue on by way of the link.

Define Victory
The president and others say we should not leave Iraq until we have won. According to the original goals set out by President Bush we have won, Iraq is not a threat to our security, Regime Change is accomplshed, there are no WMD, and the new regime does not support terrorism, at least openly. So what has happened? Have new goals been added? Will additional goals keep being added. That would not be acceptable. If we wanted security we should have left Saddam Hussein in power or we should at least break Iraq up into three countries who would share the oil revenues, which is really the only sensible solution. As long as the Shias and the Sunnis and the Kurds do not get along and they never have, there will be civil strife in a country they try to share so we are not going to solve that problem by staying there. There will never be a true Democracy because the Shiite clerics don't want one and they will as soon as they can establish an Islamic Republic where voting is irrelevant like in Iran then Iran and Iraq will form a super Fundamentalis force to take over the rest of the region. That is the future unless we break Iraq up and it is a future not worth American lives.

Winning or Losing a Blunder
In his column "The Party of Defeat", Rich Lowry tellingly frames the issue of the war in Iraq in terms of "victory" or "defeat" for the government of the United States. This is, of course, the revealing rhetoric of choice of the Bush Administration, as well.

Of all the rationalizations one could proffer for the advocacy of the continuing slaughter of US troops by Iraqi insurgents and sectarians, and the continuing slaughter of Iraqi insurgents and sectarians by US troops, the importance of whether the US government "wins" or "loses" in Iraq is, for this mind-set, paramount.

Never mind, we are urged, whether the invasion of Iraq was a strategic catastrophe or even based on deliberate deception of the more gullible members of Congress and the American public, the *important* thing, now that the US government is in Iraq, is that it not be "defeated."

The next time you hear this particular rationalization for keeping US troops trapped in the tar pit of Iraq, the better to be shot at or IED'd, ask yourself how really important in the major scheme of things is "victory" and the concomitant "prestige" of the Bush Administration and the big-bad-government neocons who people and support it.

And while you're at it, take a look at the polls of people in the United States and around the world regarding how much respect for the US government the BushCons have engendered.




As Lee Strasberg...
... and Stanislavski used to say:

Less is more.

Hey Hoosier...
...why don't you take a poll of all nations to see which one would have you as a citizen and then live there.

Old Man
My previous comment was not meant to take issue with anyone's opinion either way, but to call attention to the unbelievably long posts that are becoming more and more commonplace. It just seems to violate the spirit of the forum. Comments should be just that, comments. Not soliloquies, sonnets or dissertations. That is what blogs are for.

It's easy to set up a blog here on Townhall. Brian R (viewfromtheisland)and Celtic Dragon (celticharp) are a couple of my personal favorites. And even there, you will find comments from those of us in the peanut gallery. I like the give and take here at Townhall, but comments shouldn't be longer than the actual article!

I suggest we all ask the Townhall administrators to provide us with chat rooms for these more lengthly discussions. The demand for them shows in these long posts. People have something to say, but the current process is so cumbersome, that they sit and compose manifestos (manifesti?) Immediacy, give and take, and a forum that does't allow for hours of composition. Think on your feet and express yourself live. This is a forum of activists, so let's pester the Admin on this!


Polls of Support for War
I'm afraid that the chickenhawks in the Bush Administration and their arm-chair warriors in the corporate media and the blogosphere have their work cut out for them in the court of public opinion. Note the following from today's Christian Science Monitor:

"A series of polls taken over the last few weeks of August show that support for the war in Iraq among Americans is at an all-time low. Almost two-thirds of Americans in each of three major polls say that they oppose the war, the highest totals since pollsters starting asking Americans the question three years ago. Many of the polls were conducted in advance of the fifth anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks on Washington and New York.

"A new Associated Press/Ipsos poll that surveyed the country, and more specifically residents of Washington and New York, shows that many feel the cost in blood and money in Iraq may already be too high and that Osama bin Laden will never be found. The poll also showed that 60 percent of Americans believe that the war in Iraq has increased the chances of a terrorist attack in the US."

I haven't been polled personally, but you may emphatically count me among those to whom it's obvious that "the war in Iraq has increased the chances of a terrorist attack in the US."

When you consider the yeoman exertions of the government propagandists in the corporate media and in the blogosphere to cast the illegal, not to mention immoral invasion of a country that posed less a threat to Americans than did, say, Chechnya, let alone the fact that it had never attacked the US, it's remarkable that so many Americans have seen through the charade this soon.

But I guess a tragic military adventure that's now lasted longer than WW II is kind of hard to conceal the cost of, in both blood and treasure, as well as geopolitically, even if you forbid the photographing of the flag-draped coffins coming home.


Long comments
I appreciate the civil manner in which scottie addresses my long comments. I have a forum where we do engage in long, supported, discussions
http://azrepublicanissues.forumsplace.com/

Thank you and I will try to be more in line with the need for brevity. I admit that unsupported comments like liberals usually make is a pet peeve and I like to supply plenty of material to prove them wrong.

In general, socialists (liberals) have good intentions but are lousy at fulfilling those intentions becaue they have lousy policies to reach their utopian goals.

Hey, tanabear!
You said, "If things are going bad in Iraq, it is the responsibility of the neo-cons who planned and executed this war."

WiscPubRadio had a show on last...Tuesday or Wednesday I think, with the father of "compassionate conservatism" (imagine that, a con on public radio!), can't remember his name. He stated that Geo. Bush, Rumsfeld, et al are NOT neo-cons. They wear the clothing, but do not espouse the ideals. That was news to me, but if you've got conservatives saying they're not, wow!

Democrats say they are, conservatives who ought to know the program say they're not. Hmmmmm.

What Left Angle said:
"They rightly see the situation in Iraq to be a negative for the U.S. It is logical to set goals of achievements, benchmarks and yes a timetable for the Iraqi people to take over and for withdrawal of U.S. troops."

Yes, I see the current situation as a negative. Can we salvage it?

I was almost agreeing with the quote until he said "timetable". I'll stick with "benchmarks". When certain things are met, we can pull back.

I'd like to pull out now completely, but that's not politically feasible in the world arena, for our own prestige if nothing else.

Occupation, not war
Raywood a dit: "Then, they lose the war through sheer incompetence, willful blindness, ignorance and corruption."

Je repondit: No, they didn't lose the war. The government fell. What they ARE losing is the occupation.


Not lies
"We now know that many of the claims that "Bush lied" were actually lies themselves,"

No. You have know you are telling a deliberate untruth in order to lie. If you have a lack of evidence, then you're just spouting off, with the possibility of having a huge helping of crow for dinner down the road.

Start plucking.

That's just wrong
Bipsy wrote: "taken by itself, your post makes a lot of sense.

"However, taken in context of the "Left" (which you identify yourself with) it is untrustworthy and will be dismissed by most people."


And that's just wrong. An argument should stand or fall of itself, not who wrote it and which wing he identifies himself with. I dislike Ann Coulter's style of writing (too strident and full of insults for my taste), but every once in a while she'll strike a chord with me.

If it's a good argument, then it's good, no matter who wrote it. If one dismisses the argument because of "considering the source", then that person is wrong and not the writer of the argument.

Puppet on a string
"...(Perle, Feith, Wolfowitz) had snookered Dubya with a plan they had publicly called for starting back in 1996--..."

I've been saying it for years. Bush is just a dupe. Wolfowitz, Cheney and the others are the power behind the throne and pulling GB's strings. Pity they can't him dance better. (my opinion; your mileage may vary)


Old Man
Went to your site, pretty big place, lots to see. Liked what I had time to see. Will visit again soon. You seem pretty ubiquitous there.

All I'm saying folks is we should give the author of a column the courtesy of discussing the subject presented, rather than hijacking the thread. Whether it is to expound our own totally unrelated subject matter, or to try to dominate the conversation through volume, it's getting pretty bad.

The Only Way To Fight
The Only Way To Fight:

THIS IS THE WAY WE SHOULD FIGHT THOSE WHO WANT US DEAD

My wife and I live in the great State of Wyoming and we wish to tell you THE ONLY way to fight.

When I was growing up I was rather small, only five foot two and one half inches tall.

We had a bully guy named Mack that was always picking on me. He knew that just one lick and I was on the ground.

For several months I begged this guy to stop picking on me but he
never would. One day I told him that if he ever hit me again I would beat him into the ground and no one would be able to pull me off him. Of course he just laughed. Before I told him this I had been walking one
in the woods, I had up with a plan to stop him. I went home and told my Uncle which was about a year older than me: I said, Uncle, next time you go to town I want to go with you. He said, well I am going
now.

We got in his truck and to town we went. I told him on the way not to let anyone pull me off this bully. He said OK.

When we got to town sure enough here this guy was and bop and I was on the ground. I got up knowing that my first attempt had to put him to his knees. But remember I now had a plan. I worked my way around where I was standing in front of him. I gave him the knee in the one place that
would hurt most and put him to his knees and I gave it to him with everything I had.

When he went to his knees he belonged to me and believe me I took
advantage of it. I started hitting him with everything I had right under his chin. In other words, I was hitting him in the throat. Then I went to work on his face. I busted his lips, nose and beat his eyes till
they were black.

He started begging someone to get me off him but no one cared to do so knowing he was getting what he deserved.

After while some was going to pull me off him but my Uncle kept them from it. This guy kept begging someone to do something but they couldn’t because of my Uncle standing there. He was a large man also.

I don’t know how long I had been beating him but I do remember that my arms were getting tired. I knew I couldn’t stop till he screamed “I give up”. I was afraid that if I gave up he would go back to the same old thing. I also wanted to make sure that he would no longer pick on others who were small.

Finally he did scream, OK, OK, I give up. My Uncle then pulled me off him. He was bloody and I don’t know nor do I care how long he stayed on the ground before he got up. I thing I do know, he never picked on anyone from then till the day he died.

This is just what we need to do to ALL enemies of this great American
Country. First hit them right where it hurts most and then keep beating them till they BEG and SCREAM saying, “we give up”. This is the only way we will ever beat these terrorists we are fighting.


AMEN
President -

AMEN!

President . . . .
is right on the money!

Who won?
Iran won. Iran hated Sadam, we got rid of him. Iran is Shiite, we put them in power. Iran wants control over oil, we put the Shiites in power and they live were the oil is except for the Kurds. Iran semms unsure or uncaring about the Kurds and so do we. Iran hated the Taliban and we got rid of them in Afganistan. Iran likes the warlords in Afganistan because they corrupt the west with drugs and we put the warlords back in power. Iran hates Isreal and we negotiated a cease fire in Lebanon that made Iran look good to the Lebanese. Condi accomplished none of the goals of the US and Hezbollah got its break in the action to rearm. Iran likes the Palistinians and we want them to have their own state and a democracy. They elect somewone we don't like and back away to let the worst of the Palistinians take over. Iran wants nukes and China and Russia could care less so the US is stimied on control. In the meantime China buys oil from Iran with US dollars gained through trade with the US and will continue to do so no matter what sanctions are in place. Iran sees politics in the US in disarray. The Dems have no stated plan and the President wants to stay a course that is favorable to the Iranians. How wonderful for the US's pretend war on terrorism.

Any credibility the US had in the middle east is dissappearing. The Saudis, Jordanians, and many other "allies" see the middle east's increasing instability and risk. Watch them go where the money is, in China and increasingly in Russia. We do not have credible leadership in the US on either side of the aisle. This libs, vs. conservatives, vs. neo-cons is only distructive and plays squarely into the objectives of our enemies.

DocNoleCat
That sounds like the Dream Administration to me...
Sigh-
If only it were possible........

Ali al-Sistani : "Can't Stop Civil War"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/03/wirq03.xml
(Filed: 09/03/2006)

I no longer have power to save Iraq from civil war, warns Shia leader
By Gethin Chamberlain and Aqeel Hussein in Baghdad

"The most influential moderate Shia leader in Iraq has abandoned attempts to restrain his followers, admitting that there is nothing he can do to prevent the country sliding towards civil war.

"Aides say Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani is angry and disappointed that Shias are ignoring his calls for calm and are switching their allegiance in their thousands to more militant groups which promise protection from Sunni violence and revenge for attacks.

'I will not be a political leader any more," he told aides. "I am only happy to receive questions about religious matters.'

"It is a devastating blow to the remaining hopes for a peaceful solution in Iraq and spells trouble for British forces, who are based in and around the Shia stronghold of Basra."

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