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Wednesday, December 12, 2007
Rich Galen :: Townhall.com Columnist
Waterboarding-Gate
by Rich Galen
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It came to light this past week that the current Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi (D-Ca) was one of several Members of Congress who were briefed on the kinds of "enhanced interrogation techniques" which have come under so much recent Congressional scrutiny and have been the subject of so much recent Liberal hand-wringing.

According to the Washington Post, Pelosi may have been joined by Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Although, the juxtaposition of the name "Jay Rockefeller" and the word "Intelligence" has caused many thousands of dollars worth of beer to be wasted on Capitol Hill as it came spurting out of the noses of generations of Senate staffers of both parties.

Post writers Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen described the meeting: "Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said."

In the next graf:

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

Now, let's play a mind-game. Let's pretend that the Speaker of the House is not Nancy Pelosi Democrat of San Francisco; but Newt Gingrich Republican of suburban Atlanta.

Imagine the shrieks of outrage, from House Democrats as they, quaking with righteous indignation in the Well of the House, demanded - DEMANDED - to know what did Newt know about waterboarding and when did he know it.

WATERBOARDING-GATE!

Democratic staffers clamoring to have their boss be the first to file charges (for conduct unbecoming or something … anything) against Newt would make the House Ethics Committee office look like the run-on-the-bank scene from "It's a Wonderful Life."

MoveOn.org and its client-state the Democratic National Committee would be apoplectic in their outrage that the Speaker could have known about such interrogation techniques and not have taken immediate steps to shut it down.

Further, there would be riots in the press galleries …

I almost wrote "hunger strikes" but I have been around reporters long enough to understand that love of food ranks second only to love of the clause in the First Amendment dealing with freedom of the press - and a darned close second at that.

… if Newt didn't immediately divulge who the "two lawmakers" were who "asked the CIA to push harder" and which member of the Congressional delegation had asked "if the methods were tough enough."

Questioners in the 1,857th candidate debate would grill the Republican Presidential candidates to determine - perhaps by asking for a show of hands - if they supported Newt's complicity in keeping waterboarding secret from the rest of Congress and, thus, the American people.

But, alas, nothing of the sort has, or will, happen because the Speaker of the House is not Newt Gingrich, but Nancy Pelosi.

The Post reported that while she now believes, that at the time, the techniques were still in the planning stage:

"Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source … said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation … and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time." [emphasis mine]

Why now and not then? Partisan politics.

There was no partisan gain in objecting to those techniques in the months following 9/11 and so she didn't. As we have moved farther way, it has become politically safe to protest, no matter how dangerous the policy, security, or intelligence implications.

That, in a nutshell, defines the Politics of Pelosi: "Nothing trumps partisan politics."

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About The Author

Rich Galen has been a press secretary to Dan Quayle and Newt Gingrich. Rich Galen currently works as a journalist and writes at Mullings.com

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Issues, anyone?
I happen to have spoken with Rich, and he has about half the intelligence of Jay Rockefeller. I wonder if 50 cents-worth of beer was wasted when he thought he was being funny with his intelligence comments? Maybe he was simply being a TH writer, and it is required that he begin with a childish insult.

Ha ha ha. Sorry Rich, had to throw that incredible humor back into your face. But seriously, you are no Jay Rockefeller.

All this and the president is GWB?? You made what could have been a good article more like a typical TH one. Oh wee, on to the topic.

So, is waterboarding torture? Yes. And *IF* Peolsi was fully briefed, and IF she was allowed to speak of the briefing, then YES, MOST DEMOCRATS ARE ANGRY. I am angry at her if this is all true. Torture is wrong across all party lines.

Why is this so hard for you to believe? Pelosi has NOT done what she said she would do, and YES, MOST DEMOCRATS ARE ANGRY.

Now Rich, back to writing about expensive haircuts, pantsuits, sounds of candidate's voices, and anything else that is of great importance to the Cons.

inthemajority
First of all, LOL at your moniker. Talk about delusional!

So, you assert that waterboarding is "torture". Pehaps you can inform us in what way waterboarding leaves physical scars and permanent physical damage. Perhaps you can even inform us as to how many deaths have occurred as a result of waterboarding. Lastly, you can inform us how many times and under what circumstances the technique has actually been used by U.S. interrogators against proven terrorists. I will spare you the need to lie and will not ask you if waterboarding is effective in extracting vital information.

Once you answer these questions, then perhaps you can enlighten us with your opinion on tasering. Is tasering torture? Are tasering and waterboarding applied equally to U.S. CITIZENS? How many deaths have occurred as a result of tasering?

Lastly, you can explain to us why in your world terrorists have more rights than American citizens and why terrorists are the good guys.

I demand to know who,
Who was the Democrat that asked this question.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough."

I'd like to give them a pat on the back.

DAH
Typical DEM ploy, behind closed doors they know everything but when they are confronted by their heros THE DRIVE BY MEDIA they know nothing and demand investigations and WE THE PEOPLE LET THEM
are to stupid to see through them. I SAY THROW THEM ALL OUT.

buzzcat, right on brother I couldnt have said that better myself. I was in the military for 22 yrs and I was waterboarded and I am here to tell you that it will make you tell even on your own mother if you have the info. It doesnt take long for you to start talking either I cant wait until one of these DEMS family is kidnapped and we have one them and all else has failed and they are gettinbg ready to hack their family members heads off. I BET THEY WOULD LET THEM WATERBOARD THEM THEN, You are right also about the DEMS they like the terrorist more than their own Americans


no balls
i'm disgusted with the democrat leaders for bad mouthing the administration's waterboarding. they don't talk the talk nor walk the walk. the oversight, undersight, and bitchin will not stop this administration unless they act!

so my suggestion to the legislatures: Shut Up or put up!!!

Waterboard...
Pelosi and her Liberal friends in the US Congress would rather don scarves, visit Syria, and vote for resolutions honoring Ramadan while snubbing Christmas [see Amanda Carpenter's article].

Inthemajority
Wrote:

"So, is waterboarding torture? Yes. And *IF* Peolsi was fully briefed, and IF she was allowed to speak of the briefing, then YES, MOST DEMOCRATS ARE ANGRY. I am angry at her if this is all true. Torture is wrong across all party lines."

The point is after 911 enhanced interrogation techniques was acceptable to the democrats, now it is unacceptable?

Sounds like national security is trumped by politics with the democrats. Jay Rockefeller had a memorandum leaked outlining the democrat strategy of using intelligence for political purposes.

Inthemajority, you are a typical democrat hack. Rich is right and you know it.

buzzcat - your question
From Wikipedia - Amnesty International has documented over 245 deaths that occurred after the use of tasers.

Perhaps somebody should waterboard
GW Bush.... & then he could give us an official report. He continues to say that waterboarding is not torture, that the U.S. does not engage in torture, then refuses to define what torture is. Waterboading is simply an "enhanced" interrogation technique.

Yet, when we imagine cold-blooded dictators & terrorists using waterboading, the full extent of its evilness comes out. Presumaby, the United States employing waterboarding is OK because so many of you believe that God is on our side & anything the U.S. does is inherently "good".

Waterboarding has been strictly a technique of terrorists & evil men up to now. We are now the enemy.

Will
What is so hard for you LIBS to understand since you own the courts. THE SUPREME COURT has not ruled that WATERBOARDING IS ILEGAL.

We dont care if God is on our side and it is OK to waterboard. We are here to keep TERRORIST from blowing up any more AMERICANS so what dont you understand.

Well you are correct on that. You LIBS are the enemy, you cant wait to tell the ENEMY everything we are doing to keep them from KILLING US now that is what I call PATRIOTIC how about YOU.


inthemajority
I,too, know young Mr. Rockefeller. The man is dumber that a bag of hair.Waterboarding is nothing compared to holding a conversation with this moron.

Chuck
You are pretty good at clouding an issue.

"The Supreme Court . . ."

First of all the Supreme Court has NEVER ruled on waterboarding one way or another. To say that they haven't ruled it illegal is rather disingenuous.

More to the point. There are a variety of treaties, Geneva Convention amongst them that have come out and said that waterboarding IS torture. At this point we do know of one case of a Canadian who claims to have been tortured, but that case wasn't heard because the administration invoked "state secrets". The reason I bring that up is that the US released him without every charging him with ANYTHING.

We are here to keep America safe LEGALLY. Torture is not, has not, and will not be legal.

You may disagree with that concept, and that's your prerogative.

definition
Can any liberal define torture?
Democrats torture any facts that don't fit their agenda.

Will: If we the U.S. are the enemy you should go and live in Iran.

Torture and Identity
For those libs who want to waterboard Bush or one of his daughters so they can decide if it's torture, I have a better idea. Why don't we waterboard Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, or John Murtha so they can decide if it's aggressive interrogation?

One reason why the tapes were destroyed in the first place is to keep the identities of the agents secret. This has been lost in all the discussions about this. I bet if one of the interrogators was, say, the wife of a third rate ambassador, there wouldn't be this much fuss.

This is a very serious war we're in, and we can't afford spineless jellyfish leading it.

Galen's WaPo
Funny thing about that article. While it names Congressmen, the source remains "unnamed officials" who described the meetings. Later in the article, one of the "unnamed officials" tells a story about witnessing an incident in the meeting although, the "official" doesn't mention who was at that meeting.

Neither the officials nor the reporters mentions that the Pentagon, through the AG's office had John Yoo et al. write legal opinions for the CIA and others to rely on in conducting the enhanced interrogations.

So the question I had was, what legal opinions, if any, were given to the committee chairs who attended these meetings. They were under the usual proscriptions about note-taking, discussion with staff, etc. These meetings were for their eyes only.

If Pelosi (and Harman) attended the meetings and were told that waterboarding was being used, despite any sort of legal opinion, then I'd be fine with having them impeached and removed from office. Waterboarding is torture, we tried Japanese officers for using it, why not the same rules here?

Semper fi/par
Well, that flaming liberal John McCain didn't seem to have any problem defining torture. Try reading his bill and you will get your answer. Unfortunately, and perhaps illegally, the President issued a signing statement saying that he didn't have to abide by the bill AFTER he signed the bill into law.

Yesterday, or the day before, that HUGE opponent of Bush, Lindsey Graham appeared to feel that waterboarding was torture. He asked General Hartmann if the Iranians waterboarded one of our pilots to simply get plans for future military attacks and whether the general would call that torture. Of course the general avoided the question three times, at which point Graham dropped the question.

You want me to continue with the list of "Democrats"?

will the moron please stand up?
will wrote:

"Presumaby, the United States employing waterboarding is OK because so many of you believe that God is on our side & anything the U.S. does is inherently "good"."

What does God have too do with water boarding?

dogjudge wrote:

"There are a variety of treaties, Geneva Convention amongst them that have come out and said that waterboarding IS torture."

Water boarding is not in the Geneva convention.

In fact, under the Geneva convention the Islamofascist are enemy combatants. Therefore they have no rights under the Geneva Convention.

Only liberals are concerned about Islamofascist's rights. After water boarding they should be lined up and shot.

and the Islamofascist too!

There is one Commander in Chief
dogjudge wrote:

"Well, that flaming liberal John McCain didn't seem to have any problem defining torture. Try reading his bill and you will get your answer. Unfortunately, and perhaps illegally, the President issued a signing statement saying that he didn't have to abide by the bill AFTER he signed the bill into law."

Ever heard of separation of powers? The president doesn't have to abide by the congress' meddling in executive branch affairs.

Dogjudge, why are you on the Islamofascist's side? If you want to support them, move to Iran. Be a human shield, after they saw your head off with a rusty knife you can be a maggot farmer.

Oh and yes, John McCain is a liberal.


Torture
Okay, so waterboarding is torture. I'll give that to you libs. Problem is, libs also think that cranking up a speaker into a detainee's cell is torture. They think that having a woman touch a detainee is torture. They say that sleep deprivation is torture. All of these things are violations of Geneva and should land Bush on trial for war crimes. To this I say:


CALL THE HAGUE! MY WIFE AND KIDS ARE WAR CRIMINALS!

hypothetical questions
dogjudge wrote:

"Lindsey Graham appeared to feel that waterboarding was torture. He asked General Hartmann if the Iranians waterboarded one of our pilots to simply get plans for future military attacks and whether the general would call that torture."

Got news for you Dick Tracy, he didn't make general answering stupid hypothetical questions.

dogjudge wrote:

"You want me to continue with the list of "Democrats"?"

Oh please continue, I can't wait.

Linsey Graham is another drizzle drawered liberal.


And while we're at it
If waterboarding is such a heinous act, if it's such a torturous operation, why are libs such as Al Gore (CurrentTV) network "journalists" and the man pictured above FALLING ALL OVER EACH OTHER TO HAVE IT DONE TO THEM!?!?!?!


Sorry about the all-caps. The absurdity of this entire debate is making me lose it. Not so much the actual waterboarding, but the fact that the left puts the USA on the same low moral plane as the jihadi throat cutters because a few thugs got a rag shoved into their mouths. If we could only get them to be as outraged about Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg.... two names that, when mentioned, sends the libs into fits about "well, we shouldn't stoop to the terrorist's level". WE'RE NOT! SINCE WHEN DOES WATERBOARDING RANK WITH BEHEADING CIVILIANS?????


You know, we should just waterboard... better yet, kneecap these psychotic moonbats.

GI Joe:
If one of our pilots were captured by the throatcutters, he'd probably PRAY that the worst he would get was a waterboarding.

Heck, if we knew that the worst the Jihadis would do in the absence of the US military is waterboard Iraqi civilians, we could leave Iraq tomorrow!

dangerous Dave
I would like to water board some of the traitors in congress.

"Dangerous" Dave
You've got a new best friend. You have a way of articulating my exact same sentiments. Keep at um'. You're locked on like a 400 lbs gator on a wildebeast carcass. Roll baby roll.

I wonder if it would be anymore palitable to the libs if it was 'Perrier' Waterboarding...with a twist of course.

dogjudge
I won't take Senator McCain's definition. After all sometimes people torture the meaning of words.
I'll take the plain and simple one out of Websters. The inflicting of severe pain, as to force information or confession. How come you could not give that definition?
Please do not throw a politicians example of or definition of anything. They have their own agenda and routinely torture words.

Making up facts to support
a liberal argument is an old tactic.

koolhand wrote:

"Waterboarding is torture, we tried Japanese officers for using it, why not the same rules here?"

State your source, Most all Japanese tried for war crimes were for like you know man, murder.

he also wrote:

"... the AG's office had John Yoo et al. write legal opinions for the CIA and others to rely on in conducting the enhanced interrogations."

You ever heard of "separation of Powers" big liberal talking point. So there is your legal opinion.

Some more from koolhand:

"If Pelosi (and Harman) attended the meetings and were told that waterboarding was being used, despite any sort of legal opinion, then I'd be fine with having them impeached and removed from office."

I agree with your opinion they should be impeached, but for "giving aid and comfort to the enemy", you know, the definition of treason.

Like the "Separation of powers", treason is defined in the "Constitution".

You should read it.


Semper fi
Dogjudge is a typical liberal cry baby. He is more interested in political out come, (DEMOCRAT) i.e. socialism, than national security.


CIA officer John Kiriakou
Ex-CIA Officer Speaks Out Against Waterboarding
Do you agree with Former CIA officer John Kiriakou?

NPR-A former CIA officer who questioned a key al-Qaida operative in 2002 says he now condemns the harsh interrogation techniques which he once saw as “desperate measures” called for by “desperate times.”

Former CIA officer John Kiriakou was a member of the team that captured and questioned al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah in Pakistan in 2002. The interrogation is one of two CIA interrogations at the heart of the current controversy surrounding destroyed videotapes.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/ex-cia-officer-spe aks-out-against-waterboarding


yeah waterboarding!!
So let me get this right, we are fighting terrorism with torture? Isn't torture terrorism? How can we fight a war against something that we are doing ourselves?

To all of those who believe waterboarding to not be terrorism, try it yourselves. Please tie a 100 pound weight to your leg and go jump in a river. Let me know how it feels.

Oh, and no ones ever died from waterboarding, who's to say, we do have secret prisons in Eastern Europe . Why have them if we arn't trying to cover something up. Also why stop at waterboarding.

I pray that the US can pull itself out of this mess and regain its prestige. Domestically and Internationally

Tolerating liberals nonsense is torture,
so I guess we're all even.

Mr Galen
Is there any more telling indication of lack of journalistic professionalism, demise of American education and the general poverty of original thought than to stick "-gate" on the end of any scandal? What wonk, reporter, or commentator thinks that is clever? Seeing as how the scandal of origin had nothing to do with water or gates, what makes the suffix useful? Why not call this the "Waterboard Hotel Break-in," Har, har, har. Can you please make an effort to set an example for others making their living off the written word and stop putting that ridiculous "-gate" on a scandal? That'd be great.

Bottom line
for me is: my grandkids safety. I had a relative survive the Twin Towers, people from my home state died in those planes; there were children on those planes, some on a school trip without their mothers and dads to comfort them as the plane crashed into a building..THAT's torture. Can you even imagine how scared those babies were? Can you imagine how they cried for their mommies and daddies? And you are worrying about a gang of thugs who probably never put a toe in water, and probably needed a good bath could be tortured by waterboarding. Well boo hoo, if the information they got saved the lives of one American,,than dunk them all! I'm sick and tired of goodytwoshoe liberal jerks whining about our prestige overseas..I don't care about what the world thinks of U.S. Even when they hate us, they come begging for handouts. It's survival STUPIDS! They started this war decades ago and our leaders looked the other way til 9-11, and those same cowards (who have no problem dismembering preborn babies and calling it choice) ran like the chickens they are out of the
Capitol. I want my grandkids to be FREE, to be
SAFE and SECURE in school, in planes, whereever
and if it means more of these thugs spend a few seconds thinking they are drowning..it works for me.

Much ado about Swirlies

I am certain that Leftie Losers like Harry Reid were poindexters in High School, and that is the reason why they are so sensitive about the practice of Waterboarding, which upon closer inspection is nothing more that giving the prisoner a glorified "Swirlie."

Although Reid, Gore, and Dennis Kucinich have probably been on the receiving end of many a Swirlie, what is to explain Madam Speaker's upset over it?

No, I don't believe the drama she is causing over it, nor do I believe that if Teddy (*urp*) ever had one that he would remember the occasion.

This is why I believe that the anti-Swirlie Boarding hysteria is disengenious political grand standing, designed to tip the balance and help them to regain power.

Only the Democrat(ick) Party would be so creative as to invent such intrigue!

Bill Brasky
The reason that we don't take Lefties seriously is that they work themselves up into a tizzy over little matters.

I wonder what one of these hysterics would do if in charge during a REAL crisis: run around in cirles wringing their hands?

Why don't we compare what they do to what we do:

Them: sawing off the head of a hapless, innocent victim on video camera while the mob chants "Allah is Great! Allah is Great!" Blowing up thousands of innocent victims deliberately at wedding celebrations, pizza parlors and lines where hopefuls stand waiting to apply for a job.

Us: Giving a glorified swirlie to a couple of vicious thugs who have information related to national security.

Gee, I wonder which is worse?

Du-uh!

Mountain Rose
Who you calling a lefty? I'm an independent thinker that doesn't let rage get in the way of my decisions.

No torture is worse then death. It gives you the feeling of dying over and over again only to survive one more time to face it again. In WWII the Japanese did it and at the end of the war they were charged with war crimes, some were executed.

Mountain Rose says" I wonder what one of these hysterics(leftys) would do if in charge during a REAL crisis: run around in cirles wringing their hands?"

No conservatives invade wrong countries! HA

Bill Brasky
Something tells me that you were a recipiant of many a swirlie yourself.

Otherwise why would you think it was better for America to be attacked again than giving a vicious killer an inverted ride in a simulated porcelain bowl?

Oops, unless you really are a Leftie who wouldn't weep at the downfall of the United State?

I'll bet you hate the death penalty for murderers too!

Mountain Rose
You say
why would you think it was better for America to be attacked again than giving a vicious killer an inverted ride in a simulated porcelain bowl?

First of all Water boarding is drowning, drowning someone over and over again is torture, and torture is terror. Therefore we are fighting a war on terror by using terror. This makes us no better then the terrorists when other countries look at us. Internationally we lose allies and gain more enemies. We gain more enemies and we find ourselves more vulnerable to attacks.

This is the terrorists plan. They want to alienate us. So far they are succeeding because of people like you who can't see past politics.

Bill BraSky
I think that you are the one doing the politicizing.

Now, toddle back to the Daily Kos, and pick up a new set of talking points, because the ones you are using ain't working on me.

Good thing you aren't in charge: if you are hysterical over a little swirlie action on a vicious thug, what ever would you do if confronted with a real crisis?

Swirlies are "torture" is right up there
with the slogan "meat is murder."

The looney left lives its life by solgans.

Pussified liberals
a wedgie is torture to you.

Man what they would do
to help or enemies, the islamofascists.

Stupid liberals, I guess you can saw their heads off with a rusty knife and they will call that a dialog.

Quiz #1: IRAQ
1. Do you believe that the Iraq war is vital to the safety of the United States? If so, do you advocate a draft? Why or why not?

2. Do you believe that the Iraq war is a just war that the US should continue fighting indefinitely?

3. If you answered “Yes” to question 2, are you currently serving in the military? Why or why not?

4. Is the central goal of the short-term US troop escalation (known as “the surge”) to aid political reconciliation? Has that goal been achieved?

5. How do you define a US “victory” in Iraq, if you believe such a “victory” exists or is achievable? How long will it take to achieve this “victory”, and how much do you estimate it will cost? Just give your best guess. “As long as it takes” is not a valid answer.

6. Is there a number of US casualties, Iraqi casualties, a length of time, a degree of Middle East instability, or an amount of money spent at which point you would consider the Iraq war unwinnable or lost?

READ MORE


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/quiz-1-iraq


Torture
Verschaerfte Vernehmung - 'sharpened' or 'enhanced' interrogation was employed by the Gestapo and sections of the Wehrmacht in the 1930s and 1940s. It describes a form of torture that leaves no visible marks on the body. In the 1940s waterboarding was added to the gamut of methods used in verschaerfte vernehmung.

In 1948 the Norwegian war crimes tribunal found that the application of such methods to insurgents out of uniform constituted a war crime, punishable by death.

"Dangerous Dave" laugh Line Of the day
Dave, excellent post!! Had to laugh. (and I will steal your line too.)

libs also think that cranking up a speaker into a detainee's cell is torture. They think that having a woman touch a detainee is torture.
CALL THE HAGUE! MY WIFE AND KIDS ARE WAR CRIMINALS!

There is a fine line between torture and interegation techniques. Waterboarding is one of those last ditch efforts that stradles the line. There may be specific instances when it is needed but they should (and are) be few and exceptions to the standards and approved of by senior authority.

As to Tasering, that is done in self defense or defense of others. To "taser" a prisoner who you are interogating to get him to talk would not be moral.

My opinion only and not a rflection on Policy

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com and check the new Blog post!! :)




Mountain Rose
Waterboarding=Drowning..any questions?

To any one who believes different, I repeat..Please tie a 100 pound weight to your leg and go jump in a river. Let me know how it feels. You will do the world a favor.

Thanks

Bernoldus
War crimes are only charged against the losers.Sometimes the winners get charged if they are caught.
Read Websters definition of torture and not post WW2 Norwegian tribunal with an ax to grind against a former enemy.Non uniformed combatants are considerd stateless. If caught by regular forces they can be shot as a spy or interrogated for information that may prevent casualties among your own forces. That last little bit is where liberals get lost. In our case the interrogation is to prevent civilian and military casualties.
The high moral ground feels all good and nice. When someone you know gets killed because of it good and nice don't mean much.

GI Joe and Torture
Joe asks for sources on Japaneese tried for waterboarding. try:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/1 1/02/AR2007110201170_2.html
or http://cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/NMTT.html

However, in every case the "water cure" was part of other serious charges to include beating of prisoners and physical force.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

You Have to Wonder . . .
. . . if at least a few of those in Congress who "object" to waterboarding have it happen to them in their local S&M clubs. Especially given their past fixation with Abu Ghraib whose pictures circulated everywhere were not to dissimilar in content to what one would see in B&D (bondage and domination) videos.

HEY
Waterboarding = Saving Americans Lives

Been waterboarded and talked real fast.

Waterboarding doesnt drown you it makes you think you are going to drown.

But it is affective and works just ask terrorist who have been waterboarded.

Shamewful how many DEMS back the TERRORIST.

The problem isnt about waterboarding its about POLITICS as usual. Soon the LIBS will have some poor children waterboarded just to make AMERICA feel bad.

Clinton made this country a WOOSIE COUNTRY.

Grow up Amewricabecause people hate us and always will reguardless of who is in charge.

Iraq questions answered 1
Do you believe that the Iraq war is vital to the safety of the United States? If so, do you advocate a draft? Why or why not?
A. yes, and no to draft because it would LOWER the quality of men and women currently serving.
2. Do you believe that the Iraq war is a just war that the US should continue fighting indefinitely?
A. yes it is just. Until we can leave the country of Iraq with an elected by Iraqi gov that can secure itself yes. I would expect to have a base In Iraq to further projct power into the region, much like we do in S Korea and Germany
3. If you answered “Yes” to question 2, are you currently serving in the military?
A. Why or why not? yes in Iraq we are not all Cowards, but someone doesnt ahve to personally fight to believe ina cause. They also serve who stay home and raise our children, send us care packages etc.

Iraq answers PT2
4. Is the central goal of the short-term US troop escalation (known as “the surge”) to aid political reconciliation? Has that goal been achieved?
A. Of course it is the goal and it is being achieved but not finished yet as anyone that reads the news knows. http://www.taskforcemarne.com/dog-face-daily/
5. How do you define a US “victory” in Iraq, if you believe such a “victory” exists or is achievable? How long will it take to achieve this “victory”, and how much do you estimate it will cost? Just give your best guess. “As long as it takes” is not a valid answer.

A. As long as it takes is valid because there will be setbacks. Its like saying after the battle of Midway how long will the Pacific war last. But I expect a 25% drawdown in forces by end of 09 with forces continually drawing down for next 3 or 4 years then a small presence.

6. Is there a number of US casualties, Iraqi casualties, a length of time, a degree of Middle East instability, or an amount of money spent at which point you would consider the Iraq war unwinnable or lost? No, No substitute for victory. Obvious those without guts or honor have a different opinion.
I usually ignore certain posters like Talent Scout Mil dog, and especially John K, but I wanted to answer these.
Check out my latest blog for a perspective on Iraq
Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Torture Deals with Terrorism...
...like scratching deals with poison ivy.

Tinsldr2: Off Topic... but,

could you just jump over to Stossel's column and explain to the paulists just how ronpaul couldn't possibly be supported by the majority of the troops in Iraq as he's not even on the troops' radar over there.

Somehow these paulists actually believe that the majority of the troops are ronpaul supporters!

Go figures! Thanks. :-)

Chuck says
Waterboarding doesnt drown you it makes you think you are going to drown.

There is nothing simulated about it. Waterboarding is drowning, you are in fact drowning! How can you debate this?

Anne
I have 7 family members in IRAQ and none of them I repeat myself none of then care about RON PAUL and have never heard anyone giving money to him.

Why do people on this internet think the soldiers are RICH and love to give donations. Well Im afraid that I have bad news for you.

THE TROOPS make less than the man who picks up your garbage everyday. WOW a shocker huh. I even new Troops that were on food stamps and WIC when I was in the Military. So if you LIBS claim to care so much about the TROOPS then have YOU DEM LED CONGRESS GIVE THEM A PAY RAISE instead of RETREAT AND SURRENDER.

I was in the military for 22yrs and I will garentee you that whats on the MINDS of the troops has nothing to do with POLITICS.

Hondo
I have been waterboarded and you are tilted to a degree that you cannot enhale and if you cannot enhale the water you cannot DROWN. If you look at the picture athat is on this article you can see what is happeneing. They dodnt poor water over your mouth and nose together but they DAMN sure make you think you are going to drown.

Waterboarding has save AMERICANS LIVES. So I take it next time we have someone who has info on ATTACKING AMERICA you LIBS will want to give him MILK AND COOKIES and send him home.

DEMS=TERRORIST APPEASERS

To Bill Braskey
If you read enough townhall posts you will discern a tendency toward sadism among some of our fellow posters. Examples: Democrats aka liberals are recommended for nocturnal roundup, incarceration behind barbed wire, ad hoc military interrogation, forced labor in munitions plants, and execution by gunshot to the head. One fellow had a serialized online novella going ("The Diary of Juliet Smith") in which the continued plotline was the murder of liberals. To such folk, what better than a government figure with whom one can identify and who is doing the kind of fun sadistic things one would like to do to one's familiars if only silly old laws didn't prevent it. We are in Germany in 1938 and somebody is smashing a Jew in the face or it's 2007 and somebody is pouring water up the nose of an up-ended Iraqi: vicariously, we feel a shiver of excitement, pleasure, satisfaction. There's nothing new under the sun.

RoN paul and the Military
http://tinsldr2.townhall.com/g/cc76d690-9387-43e0-993a-2117 5581f0ac&comments=true#comments

Rep Paul may have received the most money from the US Military. That does not equate to the most vote from the military members. The military members by and large do not send money to political campaigns. Much less then 1% of the military gives to ANY political official.

I have asked numerous people if they know who Ron Paul is. Of the well over 100 individuals I talked to in Iraq, I know two officers that could identify him and anything he represents and neither of those two supports him. I have asked all branches except Coast Guard about him and included every rank from Private to Lieutenant Colonel.

Most individuals in the Army are not politically active. In my experience (having been in since 1983) about 60% of those who vote are going to vote conservative and 40% liberal. Then throw in that most military vote by absentee ballot which may not be counted.

Unfortunately the majority of active duty soldiers won’t vote. And when you consider the small percent of the population that is on Active duty you begin to really see that the military vote is not significant to our nations vote.

Also Posted this on stossels column

As to Ron Paul he would does not represent a majority of military opinions.

chuck
Your wrong. Your lungs fill with water. If your lungs fill with water you will begin to drown.

I don't know what disneyland ride you were on when you had your bad experience but I can assure you waterboarding is much worse.

Waterboarding is illegal by all
Except Bush and neocons, of course. It is illegal in every other country, and it was the US's idea to make it illegal because "we" knew that it was torture and "we" did not want our military tortured. Can you imagine if someone in the US military were to be waterboarded by an Iraqi??? Wow, there would be some outrage on the neocon's part.

What do terrorists want? By definition they terrorize. Who is most frightened? Who was ducking and covering in the 50s? Who was using duct tape when Bush/Cheney came to office? Who thinks Iraq had WMD or that Iran is about to strike?

The terrorists want you to be terrified. The neocons are terrified, and as such allow the Bush admin to do anything they want, even if it is illegal or takes our rights away. To take a page from the neocon playbook, "Why do to you appease the terrorists so much? Why do you hate America?"

REPS = TERRORIST APPEASERS

Another page from you guys: "No really. Why do you hate America so much by appeasing the terrorists? If you do not respond to my liking, then obviously you hate America."

Brasky:
Let's tie that weight to a terrorist and toss him overboard into Lake Superior. Then, let's waterboard his buddy. We'll see which one fares better (although I'm thinking that watching his buddy get tossed into the icy depths would make someone talk REAL fast).

Waterboarding may be simulated drowning, but I don't know of any casualties from it yet.

Quit being such a drama queen. There's a big difference between getting a rag stuck in your mouth and getting cement shoed.

Torture?
See my above post. If it's so bad, why are libs volunteering to have it done to them? Oh, and why are they still alive?

And lilly
You're a drama queen too. Unless someone is making you wear a star and telling you to be off the streets at kerfew.

buzzkat writes:
> So, you assert that waterboarding
> is "torture". Pehaps you can inform us
> in what way waterboarding leaves physical
> scars and permanent physical damage.

Waterboarding is torture though that is not the point. The point is that the arguments used to defend that particular form of torture can be applied to many other tortures. Those who defend waterboarding ought to just say they believe it is okay to torture those suspected of terrorism.

As for permenant physical damage, pulling water into your lungs repeatedly might very well cause some permenant damage.

> Perhaps you can even inform us as to how
> many deaths have occurred as a result of
> waterboarding.

What would you guess? None? As far as torture goes many techniques have little chance of causing death but waterboarding is not one of them. Accidental drowning of the torture victim probably does occur.

> Lastly, you can inform us how many times
> and under what circumstances the technique
> has actually been used by U.S. interrogators
> against proven terrorists.

Proven terrorists? This is one reason torture is unacceptable. It will rarely be applied to proven criminals but to suspected criminals. The more acceptable a society finds torture the more often it will be used. If America is a moral society based on the values Jesus preached then torture ought to be shunned.

> I will spare you the need to lie and will
> not ask you if waterboarding is effective
> in extracting vital information.

What you are saying is that you support practically any form of torture of "proven" criminals as long is it extracts vital information. Correct?

Peace,
S Virk




To Mountain Rose
You used the word "swirlie" the other day on another thread, defending waterboarding. As I had not heard the term, I googled it and learned that "swirlie" defines a malicious prank in which the victim's head is held upside down in a toilet bowl while flushing the toilet. Sounds right up your alley, Rosie. But I think you are referring to waterboarding as "a swirlie" because the word sounds frivolous and fun, a prank, nothing more, maybe a kind of Dairy Queen treat.

I happen at this time to be reading a novel in which, to extract information, Jews are tortured during the Spanish Inquisition (ca 1480) using the "water torture" which is described in detail. It is essentially waterboarding---the victim's mouth and throat were crammed full of rags then water was poured into his mouth as he lay with the head lower than the body. This novel is in no way a political statement on Bush administration practices---it was written in 1979. The point is to show sadistic and cruel practices used during the Inquisition. Don't you find it interesting that our United States government is now doing what the Spanish Inquisition did? And you applaud this?



waterboarding
could be considered torture. The real question is, if someone you loved were being held by terrorists with the threat they would be beheaded in 24 hours, and a captured jihadist knew the location, is there really anything you would not do to gain that information? I expect my government to do everything in their power to save an American life in situations like this, rather than shining up their Moral Superiority Medal, comforted by the fact that they didn't get down and dirty, even though, sadly, some American they didn't know got carved up by lunatics.

Moratorium on Lib Speak
I propose that every liberal who comments in opposition to waterboarding, start off their comments indicating whether they are for or against abortion.

If they are anti-abortion, I'll listen to their argument. If they are pro-abortion then they are a hypocrite and can talk to the hand.

All in favor say "Aye".

HONDO
I have been waterboarded and have administered it . Please tell me when you were waterboarded and where?

Corndog:
Sorry, I can't get on board with your moratorium. Quite honestly, I find the loony rants of the libs humorous, and I need the humor to get through the day.

Don't tell them they can't be for abortion and against waterboarding. That would make them put an innocent human above the terrorists. They won't do that.

Don't try to bestow rationality on the irrational. Let's just sit back and watch the implosion.

Selective outrage. Hypocrisy. Wanting it both ways. All qualities of the left. They don't see things the way that normal people do. Which is why their congress has the lowest approval rate.... ever.


Pet Peeve
I wish people would stop affixing the word "gate" to some other noun to indicate a messy scandal, because it does not make sense. It derives, I know from "Watergate," which was the name of a building complex. So, just adding "gate" to another noun is silly.
If people want to use this sort of ploy, a better one would be to add "aquiddick," as in "Chappaquiddick," which is associated with a nasty, and indeed, criminal scandal.

Sadism defined:
To those who don't realize, Nancy Pelosi is practicing sadism every day! Sadism: n. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty. She practices cruelty on the American citizens by the decisions she makes on a whim.

She pretends that she is either the Secretary of State, overstepping her boundaries and trying to make "deals" where she has no authority, or she pretends to be president when she "vetoes" bills. She has no veto power and yet she has held up the bill Congress and the Senate overwhelmingly passed to enforce English be spoken in all businesses. Company owners are suffering because they are being sued because of her negligence.

She insisted on a jet the size of Air Force One, who does she think she is? Oh, I forgot, she thinks she IS the president!

Here is a perfect picture of her with her attitude, it says it all, no gavel in her hand in this one...

http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/03/pe losi_whip.jpg

Now, who is the sadist? I think the bullwhip fits her perfect and I'm sure she knows how to use it! Ms. Pelosi is out of control!

The hand in the bottom left
corner of the picture, look closely, could that be Ms. Pelosi's? I'm sure she would use this technique if it was to her advantage to gain information!

What do you say we make ...
waterboarding standard practice on ALL politicians seeking elective office? We can ask them questions about their allegiances, if they're on the take, what they really plan to do when they get in office, etc ...

Not only would we find out the truth BEFORE they try to screw us, we may actually weed out some of the crap and therefore have better candidates to choose from.

Another thing that could be done to raise state and federal revenue is we can make it a Pay Per View event. For the really big money doners, they could actually participate by tying down the potential politician or maybe even receive the honor of pouring the water.

This could be fun!!

If I were
a cartoonist I would draw a cartoon of several democrat leaders huddled together under rubble from a terrorist bomb and they are saying "We are better than this" as they look at a picture of waterboarding.

Torture info
All the leading dems on the intelligence committee agreed with water boarding,and they also agreed to have the tapes destroyed as it would have shown their agreeing to it.One more point.The folks that say that although our enemies torture and behead our troops we should not.Hey dimwits this shows that we are weak.One thing that terrorists are afraid of is power absolute and unforgiuving power.

For the record ...
I have never been waterboarded and I have never administered waterboarding. I will defer to Chuck as the expert here.

What I'm getting here is miscommunication. It sounds to me like the Lilly's and Hondo's of this world think they know something about that which they apparently do not. (Yeah, like that's never happened to a liberal before!) My understanding of waterboarding is that once the person is put in the proper position, their face is covered such that water WILL NOT ENTER THEIR MOUTH OR NOSE, and when the water is poured over their covered face, they experience the sensation of drowning without the actual threat of drowning. If you believe this type of psychological "manipulation" (for lack of a better term) is terror, well, you probably think Sherriff Joe tortures his prisoners because they live in tents.

I would appreciate it if any experts on waterboarding would correct me here. Sorry, Hondo, that does not include you!

Stalin, Chuck, GI Joe and Dangerous Dave
Stalin would be so proud of the American right. Who could have guessed that fifty years after his death the techniques Stalin perfected (sleep deprivation, stress positions, mock executions, etc.) would be championed by the American right as essential to the survival of democracy? Read The Gulag Archipelago if you want a description of how these tactics can best be put to use.
The central fallacy at the heart of the pro-torture argument is that only the guilty -- only the terrorists -- will be tortured. The framers of the Constitution rejected this fallacy and, instead, based this country upon due process and the separation of powers.
If you alleged "patriots" are so hungry for a Stalinist, totalitarian regime to take the place of the Constitution, why don't you move to China, where that kind of thinking is more in line with the way the government is set up?
Terror works through fear. When Bin Laden crashes planes into the Twin Towers, when bloodthirsty maniacs cut people's heads off with rusty knives, they do it to whip up the fear they know lies in the hearts of American "conservatives." They know that these sissy patriots will be the first to cry that we can't afford to abide by the Constitution, that America needs to stoop to the level of Joseph Stalin to survive, that the only solution is to hand over our freedom to the government.
And that's how they will win. I say we beat them on our terms. I say if you believe the U.S. Government should be torturing people, you are an agent of Bin Laden. Torture is for cowards; freedom demands courage in the face of terror.

chuck
Sounds like a great hobby you go there. Next time do us all a favor stay down and swallow as much water as you can.

Also you said you administered waterboarding. Your pet Yorki must hate you.

I myself have read about Waterboarding. Its truly a discusting and disgraceful tactic. How can we fight a war on a verb when we are commiting that verb ourselves?

Does it work?
I do not know, but of it does, it should be done.
Scaring someone into thinking they will drown is hardly torture. If it is, then we torture every inmate in our federal prison system. Most are certainly scared of being raped or shanked by other inmates. And no, I am not making a comentary on the prison system. I am saying that fear does not equate automatically with torture.

I know many left leaning folks think this is repugnant, but scaring the hell out of a terrorist should absolutely be done if it will save a bus full of school kids from being blown up.

Hondo
Terror is a noun. Terrorize is a verb. You're welcome.

Lynne
Ouch

Hondo
The difference between me and you are that I will do anything to protect this Country from being attacked and you want us to be attacked so you can BLAME BUSH.



Hondo
I want you to take a bucket and lay it on its side Like 9 to 3 on a clock, now lean the mouth of bucket down toward 5 on the clock and fill it up with water and get back with me when you accomplish that mission.


have a nice waterboarding day.

Raywood:
First, you can harp all you want about there isn't a real threat. Sure, it's a bumper sticker war.

That's fine. Luckily, you're not in charge and there are adults out there.

You can deny that the world is a dangerous place. It won't make it any safer.

As for stalinist practices, I'm not going to point any fingers. But ahve you personally been locked up in a gulag? Have you lost any liberties?

Didn't think so.

Raywood
I hope when this country gets attacked again and many Americans die because we were following the Constitution that you whining ARSE LIBS will be the first ones screaming at BUSH on why he couldnt defend this country properly. You LIBS dont care about the CONSTITUTION you only care about POLITICAL POWER. How can you defend the things that you have done to this country? You have told and agreed with the enemy that AMERICA is the TERRORIST(BECAUSE YOU LIBS HATE BUSH). now that is what I call PATRIOTIC. Everytime the Elections come around OSAMA BIN LADEN gives his DEMOCRATIC speeches for you LIBS to win, I only know that you LIBS always are screaming that if our fore fathers only knew. Well if you LIBS did back then what you do today, APPEASING THE ENEMY you would have been hung for TREASON now hows that for the CONSTITUTION.

Waterboarding
My problem with torture is that its a temporary fix, or a bandaid fix. It takes care of the mediate problem but down the road we are just going to have to deal with it again and again and its only going to get worse. What we need to do is find a way to nip it in the bud and fix the problem once and for all.

chuck
Looks like he has on his tinfoil hat today

HONDO
The reason waterboarding or any torture today is a temperary fix is because you WHINING ARSE LIBS /MSM are telling the TERRORIST what and how we are doing it. NOW THAT IS WHAT I CALL APPEASING THE ENEMY. Now where is my Consttutional rights after you tell them evewrything we are doing. Its like giving your playbook for a football gave to the OPPONANT. Sooner or later they will DEFEAT YOU. Then what CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS do you have when they are in your back yard killing you. I love my country and will do anything to DEFEND IT even against foreign or DOMESTIC (DEMS) enemy.

Hondo
I would rather have my tin foil hat on then your DUMBARSE hat on. It scares me to listen to some of you peoples commentds on here. WHat the hell would you do if we got invaded. I know the LIBS answer to that, it is used commonly today. RETREAT AND SURRENDER. Just ask HARRY REID(DEM)

Hondo
Torture is causing extreme pain, like bamboo shoved under the fingernails. Waterboarding causes extreme discomfort and anxiety. If you are not willing to cause a terrorist extreme discomfort and anxiety, if it will yield information that can save American lives, in my opinion, you don't deserve to be an American.

waterboarding = drowning???
right...

Can someone in here who has officially drowned before please tell me if they equate waterboarding with the time that they drowned?

Also - to all those people in here who have drowned - please tell me if you did everything you could possibly do at the time to keep from drowning -

...there are some real morons in here.



Sorry Chuck ...
I didn't realize you were that ... ummm ... clear headed.
You're absolutely right. After being attacked by Bin Laden, who did we LIBS think we were fooling with all this crap about the Constitution? Give me a break, right? Any right-thinking patriot knows that all that chatter about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is for SUCKERS!
Osama Bin Laden can't kill all of us. But he sure as hell can kill the Constitution -- and it's unhinged whackos like you who are doing all the heavy lifting for him.
Keep up the good work, Chuck. (Or should I call you Muhammed?)

100 lb weight?
Bill Brasky writes, "To any one who believes different, I repeat..Please tie a 100 pound weight to your leg and go jump in a river. Let me know how it feels. You will do the world a favor."

Ill try it. BUT as soon as I know im about to jump in, Im allowed to do everything that I can not to drown...right? - Which includes "talking" if I if I feel it necessary. Kind of makes the 100 lb weight irrelevant dont you think?

I think that may be the part that you dont get - In waterboarding - theres no 100 lb weight.

jmcdanal
Right on brother right on. It amases me at the stupidity on here. These LIBS think that when BUSH is gone the TERRORIST will go away also. The problem here is they all believe BUSH is the terrorist. This is my one and only country and I will defend it any way possible, with or without the LIBS help. I cant in my right mind understand anybody who would want the enemy to prevail over their own COUNTRY, please will someone explain that to me.

Oh .. and Dangerous Dave
I don't need to be locked up in a gulag to know Stalinism when I see it. Solzenytzen describes it quite well when he talks about the Soviet torture regime of sleep deprivation and stress positions. It worked well for Stalin as a means of exerting control over his "enemies," and I'm sure it will be equally effective against the "enemies" of this government.
But, again, Dave, you missed my point. The Constitution prohibits torture, provides for due process, trial by jury, access to counsel, habeas corpus and all those things that you contend should be denied "terrorists," precisely because the framers did not trust the government to decide who was or was not a criminal. The framers put that power into the hands of the people. You -- and those like you, who insist that America has to engage in the same tactics as Josef Stalin in order to survive -- would like to put that power into the hands of -- I guess -- the president and the CIA.
I don't care if its Bush or Clinton or Abraham Lincoln. I don't trust the government with the unlimited power to decide who is or isn't a terrorist, to torture people in secret prisons, to lock people up for life without a trial or the right to petition the government for habeas corpus.
So, you're right -- it hasn't happened to me. But it could. What if the local sheriff suddenly decides he doesn't like my politics? What happens if he makes a call to the Homeland Security Department saying he thinks I might be a terrorist? What happens if I get picked up by the government and tortured? Do you think I might "confess?" Isn't that what torture is designed to achieve? Confessions?
Yeah ... it's a wonderful place, your America. Stalin would love it.

Raywood ash
Osama bin laden can only kill what you LIBS let him kill are you that ignorant. I dont care about life, liberty and the persuit of happiness becuase all that means nothing if my country is under seige like it is today by you WHINING ARSE LIBS. You can sit back and claim that we have nothing without our constitution but what good is our CONSTITUTION if we are no longer a nation of one. If you felt that way why didnt your fearless leaderBILL(THE SCUDSTER)CLINTOON take out OBL when he had a chance. Oh im sorry he was worried what other countries would think of us. BIG WHOOPIDY DOO. Im AMERICAN and nothing else and dont care what other countries say or do.

You can call me what you like but im no COWARDCRAT and will defend this country with my life. SUCKER

Water
Judging from the times I've been in the Middle East, the REAL torture is when we threaten to throw soap in the water.

Question for our Saudi friends: Is lashing a woman who has already been gang-raped 200 times considered torture?

Water
Judging from the times I've been in the Middle East, the REAL torture is when we threaten to throw soap in the water.

Question for our Saudi friends: Is lashing a woman who has already been gang-raped 200 times considered torture?

AZPhil
I';m no Saudi -- but the answer to your question about the lashes is YES.
That's why I don't think America should engage in the same kind of thing. Again, if you don't think sleep deprivation is torture, you might want to pick up a copy of The Gulag Archipelago. If you don't think waterboarding is torture, you might want to look for it in the Nazi instructions for "enhanced interrogation" methods.
Waterboarding was developed by the Spanish Inquisition. Japanese war criminals were executed for doing to U.S. servicemen.
If you think the United States should act like Stalin, Hitler and the Grand Inquisitor, then you are a fascist -- not an American.

POLITICAL
What is funny is that when 9/11 happened all you LIBS couldnt wait to jump on board and lets go get them TERRORIST no matter what it takes. Now that it has Become POLITICAL you cant wait to jump off board and the new TERRORIST is BUSH and the REPS. JUST LIKE A LIB FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP.
I think having DEMS in congress is against my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. remember RETREAT AND SURRENDER is the DUMBOCRAPS MOTTO. just ask your fearless leaders HARRY REID AND NANCY P. Theres a new Congress in TOWN. I would like to no what town.

Ash
"Yeah ... it's a wonderful place, your America. Stalin would love it."

If it is that bad to you, I would have to say that you must approve of Stalinism because you haven't left the USA yet.

"I don't trust the government with the unlimited power to decide who is or isn't a terrorist"

Neither do I, completely. However, when they pick up a known Al Qeada operative, I'm ready to take their word for it.

"You -- and those like you, who insist that America has to engage in the same tactics as Josef Stalin in order to survive"

Still, you haven't convinced me that the US military is engaged in stalinism. However, if they are, I don't see it so much as necessary for the survival of the nation as I do the survival of a ground unit that is saved by the information.

"torture regime of sleep deprivation"

As I said before... lock up my kids because I haven't had a good nights sleep in nearly three years. Here's an idea... let's give the detainees access to coffee... at least then they'll be no more tortured than I am on a daily basis.


If you knew it would save American lives
...would you give in to a terrorist's demands?

ASH
What Constitution are you talking about, Hell one of your LIBERAL JUDGES just declared the Declaration of INDEPENDENCE unconstitutional.


We dont need you spew things about how STALIN and the EMPERIAL JAPANESE did things we have all that right here in AMERICA with your LIB JUDGES and the ACLU(AMERICAS CRIMINAL LIBERTIES UNION)
LIBERAL school teachers teaching PROPAGANDA to our CHILDREN. LIB teachers scaring our children that the world is melting , hell tell that to the people up north shoveling record setting snow fall. You can say all these things but your LIB party has already started on the STALINIST MOVEMENT in our country. BOO HOO waaaa waaa

there is no constiution without the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE

Chuck and Dangerous Dave
Chuck: sorry ... you're right ... just relax ... take a deep breath ... maybe strangle a small animal or something ....
Dave: You said that, when the government picks up "a known Al Quaeda operative," you're "ready to take their word for it."
Okay -- but that's exactly what I'm talking about. If the goevernment has the power to say "this is a known Al Quaeda operative," take that person into custody, deny him the right to an attorney or to know the charges against him and torture him into confessing, then you're going to have to explain to me how that is not a totalitarian state.
Once the government has the power to lock people up with no due process or habeas corpus. Once the American people agree that "some" torture is okay -- as long as we torture the right people -- then what makes you think the government is going to stop with Al Quaeda?
Believe me: I hate the people who attacked America. I hate Bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein, the mullahs and the Saudi royal family. I hate the guys who cut Daniel Pearl's head off and the suicide bombers and the Iranian morality police. I have a visceral desire to inflict pain on them and to destroy their lives.
But I cannot allow my thirst for revenge to erode my core beliefs -- which, for me, are embodied in the U.S. Constitution. Guys like Chuck may think the Constitution is a bunch of words -- but thinking people (including conservatives) have got to draw the line at torture.

chucky
Stop being so political.

Thanks

G.I.Joe
Sorry, but computer problems kept me from responding yesterday, but as for Japanese POWs being tried for "waterboarding" by the US, see Evan Wallach's article in theWaPo where he says:"After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war."

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

So, I know you wouldn't apologize for calling me a liar, but since you did, let me just return the favor.

See this posting by Marty Lederman about the Office of Legal Counsel advising the CIA re these techniques. "...The techniques were first approved in March 2002, at least four months before the infamous OLC "Torture Memo." This suggests that the CIA was willing to engage in such conduct before OLC signed off on it (in writing, anyway), and that OLC's advice was offered with respect to ongoing conduct." The conduct described to Pelosi et al in the briefings. There's so much more, the only reason you wouldn't know about it, is that Rush forgot to tell you about it. Open those eyes and ears, Joe.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/11/cia-enhanced-interrogati on-techniques.html

Lynn
If you accept that waterboarding is torture and if you accept that it is illegal, but you think it's OK to use it anyway if it saves American lives, then you are saying that you have no firm principles and that the end justifies the means.

Can you imagine a situation in which Americans are taken hostage, the hostage-takers demand a large ransom, and the government of the United States refuses to pay a ransom, on principle? Or do we abandon our principles any time we can what we want out of the deal?

Bruzazki, re Gates
Here is how it all began: in Washington DC there is a body of water called the Tidal Basin that was originally used to flush the city's waste by admitting water from the Potomac River. The gate that adjusted the water flow as called the Water Gate. The general location of the Water Gate, which is parkland adjacent to the river and to a downtown neighborhood of federal buildings, came to be called by the same name. When I moved to DC in 1966 there were, for example, outdoor summer concerts held "at the Water Gate". After a while Howard Johnson built a hotel there and called it the Water Gate Howard Johnson's. That's where the famous burglary of documents took place, and you know the rest of the story.

Since then every government scandal tends to take the suffix "---Gate". What's the harm?... Just thought you might like to know how it all got started.

Lynn: Umm. I think lilly has lost it...
.

Raywood Ash
Thank you. I wondered if anybody would mention this. We have an agency that was advised by a whole flock of lawyers not to do something, and they went ahead and did it anyway, and some of them went to law school but they didn't realize they were destroying evidence, and then they lied about it, and concealed it, and half of Washington gave the thumbs up for it but the President of the United States never heard of it, and now we are supposed to take their word for something? I saw some testimony on TV: "We used waterboarding on only two people, we we only had to do it for thirty seconds, and man, they both sang like canaries and our doing that saved all kinds of lives."

As somebody said, I was born at night but it wasn't last night.

Lilly. I don't know if you noticed, but
we do not have to imagine a situation where Americans have been taken hostage. Does the name Daniel Pearl ring a bell? And if you think waterboarding is torture, what would you call getting your head cut off?

Waterboarding is like surfing
Its great to know that we are fighting a war on terror with torture. Since torture is terror, we are just kicking ourselves in the butt and making the problem worse. What a great way to lose allies.

Surfing and waterboarding
Its great to know that we are fighting a war on terror with torture. Since torture is terror, we are just kicking ourselves in the butt and making the problem worse. What a great way to lose allies.

Everybody follows the rules
Yeah, right. The people we are fighting are not lawful soldiers, therefore the Geneva Convention does not apply. We have the right to summarily execute any combatant not wearing the uniform of a country with which we are at war. They are NOT subject to our Constitution, nor do they have the right to a trial by jury of their peers.
These people that we are capturing - they are not some suspect that was picked out of a police lineup based on a stranger seeing them for the first time while they are committing a crime. Many of them have been sought for several years before they were apprehended. These people are NOT innocent, they are NOT SUSPECTS. They ARE the real deal. In a perfect world, waterboarding would not be necessary - but to be completely honest, if I had apprehended one of these people and was sure an attack was imminent, I would be using the techiques of the Apache Indians if necessary to get information from them - because if it saved ONE innocent person, it would be worth it to me.

Just for grins
Say we captured an Islamic fanatic on Sep 1, 2001. Say he laughed in our faces and said he knew something that was going to happen in a couple of days that would kill almost 3,000 people here in the U.S. What questioning techniques WOULD you authorize???

That is the problem with any successful questioning - the event is intercepted prior to completion, therefore the only thing the bleeding hearts hears about is the questioning.

Who would have believed some idiot from England would try to blow up a plane with a bomb in his shoe??

FDR sends an assassin to kill Hitler in 1938. FDR is tried and convicted for arranging for the murder of the leader of a foreign nation because he would never be able to PROVE that he saved millions of lives by sending the assassin.

ROCC
Your post reminds me of a 24 episode. First of all if they had been wearing uniforms, they would have been mowed down years ago. They might be from the Middle east but they are not stupid. They will never letting us fight our way, just like we wouldn't fight the war for our independence Englands way. Our soldiers didn't have uniforms, we weren't even a legit country then. With your reasoning, if it were modern day, our forefathers, Patriots would have been tortured.

The Middle East Countries in itself are a joke. They were started by the league of Nations back in the 1930's, to keep there power down by splitting Arabia into a series of small countries with limited power. They have never honored their borders and you can see this with their traveling militias.

You see torture is never ok. With torture we terrorize and if we terrorize we are only adding to the fire.

ROCC says capturing Islamic fanatics
So your going to go around capturing muslims. Where do these Islamic fanatics live? Could it be Islamabad! Really though, John Wayne, would you just pick them at random, torture them and hope one of them has an overactive imagination? I'm glad your not running the show.

Way to not pay attention to what I said
THEY made the decision to attack us, but people like yourself will try to find any excuse to attack the Republicans on how it is handled. Here is the typical Liberal plan "No matter what the Republicans do, we can say it is their fault. We will continually take away any tool that is effective, until they have no tools left - then when there is another attack, we can blame them for not stopping it." Sadly, this plan will probably work with people that get most of their news from the biased networks.
I DON'T need history lessons from you, I have been over there.
NOWHERE did I say I would round up random Muslims and torture them. NOWHERE. Just like most of your kind, you try to change what everyone else says so that you can try to make your argument (straw man, anyone?).
Just to be clear, I never said I agreed that Waterboarding was torture, but to also be clear - I DO believe that torture (in specific situations) is acceptable. Back to my example above, on Sep 1, 2001 - torture would be completely acceptable to MOST Americans. Just because you do not have the guts to hurt a TERRORIST, nearly 3,000 people would have died.
Keep living in your ivory tower and let the fighting men and women handle this.
Back to your example about the Revolutionary War, take a look at what did happen to many of our forefathers. They knew the risk they took, many of them paid the price. They are probably rolling in their graves seeing how so many people have lost the nerve to fight.
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