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Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Rich Galen :: Townhall.com Columnist
Investing in Failure
by Rich Galen
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Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid (D-NV) has declared "this war is lost" and has made a great deal of pretending to have decided when and under what circumstances US troops will effect their retreat from Iraq.

Forget, for the moment, the effect on the young men and women who are actually fighting this war that statement must have on their morale. Consider - as Democrats must surely be doing - the political effects of declaring "this war is lost."

Harry Reid now has a reason to root against Americans in (what those of us who are not, like to call) "harm's way." He now needs to have his proclamation become the commonly accepted truth. He is invested in the failure of the war in Iraq.

If the Republican apparatus were up and running with any kind of efficiency, the RNC would be demanding of every Democrat in the nation running for (or serving in) any elected office to declare whether or not they agree with Harry Reid.

The RNC would, further, make it clear to all that not denouncing Harry Reid is the same as agreeing with him.

Second, it should be made clear that, although Harry Reid was talking about the war in Iraq, we are still fighting the wider war on terror; a war which has stayed off our shores for about five-and-a-half years, but which may revisit us with no warning, at any time.

One of the things we have learned from the action in Iraq is that weakness is seen by our enemies as … weakness. Our enemies are not looking for a path to peace to co-exist with the West in a Shangri La.

Our enemies celebrate weakness and will continue to exploit it. The nuances of Harry Reid's statement might well be lost on them.

Reid's comments splash over into the Democratic nominating process. The NY Times ran a piece yesterday by Raymond Hernandez which began: Only a few months ago, the vast majority of black elected officials in New York were expected to support the presidential candidacy of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. But … in a series of interviews, a significant number of those officials now say they are undecided about whether to back Mrs. Clinton or Senator Barack Obama.

If Hillary Clinton (read, BILL Clinton) believes the most basic constituency in the Clinton/Clinton cross-tabs is beginning to drift away to Obama, she (read, HE) will have no choice but to find some way to back away from her current stance on the war in Iraq and circle around to get to the left of Harry Reid and Barack Obama.

Imagine the howls of outrage if, while US troops under NATO control in Kosovo, Newt Gingrich had said "this war is lost."

In the long-term, the Democrats will be hurt by what Harry Reid is saying and what other senior Democrats are not saying.

As we move through the Presidential election cycle, Democrats risk a backlash from voters who may not be happy about the state of affairs in Iraq, but will not abide putting our service members at risk for political gain.

On a the Secret Decoder Ring page today: The New York Times piece about Hillary and Obama; plus the Politico.com coverage of reactions to Reid's remarks. Also a Mullfoto which made me giggle and a Catchy Caption of the Day.

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About The Author

Rich Galen has been a press secretary to Dan Quayle and Newt Gingrich. Rich Galen currently works as a journalist and writes at Mullings.com

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The Mystery of Loser Mentality
For those of us who are patriotic, the obvious desire that the Democrat(ick)s have for defeat in Iraq is inimaginable.

I mean, how could people be rooting for their own side to lose?

Of course, the answer is that these obnoxious jerks like Harry Reid are determined to force the United States to lose because they never grew out of their hippie-wanna-bee youth.

But if you think the loser mentality stops at the walls of Capital Hill, you are sadly mistaken.

This attitude infects our entire culture, and is most insideous inside the walls of our public schools, where the Left Wing Activists are hard at work creating generation after generation of boys who will grow into "men" who won't fight for their country.

I have addressed this issue in my latest post entitled "Making a Nation of Wussies: The Emasculation of American Boys." Drop by and rant!

The survival of our nation depends on countering this destructive trend!

A picture of Reid...
...showing Us just how big his "manhood" is.

Loss for words
I am so shocked and angry at just treasonous people like Reed and Pelosi that I just do not know what to say. I would lock them all up or worse for treason. My gosh how can Bush and the GOP just SIT ON THEIR BUTTS and allow these people to keep betraying our country!!!

We've already won the war!
Remember the Mission Accomplished banner photo op? Bush was wearing that foolish flight suit said Mission was Accomplished.. how can we surrender when we have already won?

Traitors
Harry Reid is a perfect example of the fact the elder statesman Democratic Party is dead and gone. They have succumbed to the Socialists - but are too cowardly to call themselves by name. FDR, Truman and JFK would be horrified at the cancerous mass Carter, Reid, Pelosi, Clintoon and Kennedy (D-Drunkard) have made of the old Democrats.

They are not new - we had copperheads in the United States during the civil war. And Benedict Arnold was a great soldier before he was a traitor (kinda like Kerry...)

It's a shame the President doesn't have them arrested for treason and punished. As in hanged.

jcdean1978 -- It IS most discouraging

What makes it worse is that so many of our citizens appear to agree with the defeatist efforts of Team Reid/Pelosi. Not only can they get away with a "war is lost" statement, but actually have folks rallying around them!

Several years ago, Senator Trent Lott lost his majority leader spot for a very stupid comment that appeared to support the 1948 presidential platform of Strom Thurmond. I don't believe that Sen. Lott meant to support a segregationist viewpoint, but the comments were so repulsive (especially in the build-up to the war with our very integrated military heading off into harm's way) that I agreed he should step down.

Any chance that the majority Democrat senators are now going to demand that Weeny Reid step down? I doubt it. But I nevertheless wrote to both of my senators (one R; one D) and made my views known.

I hope that other TH posters will likewise ask their senators not to let this pass.

Correction:
A picture of Reid showing Us just how big Ron's "manhood" is....

Dan Quayle & Newt Gingrich
Wow.

An insightful column from someone who worked for both Dan Quayle & Newt Gingrich. Now that should REALLY give us the point of view of a winner.

His suggestion is that the Democrats are totally wrong and that America should stay the course.

Please keep believing losers such as this. With the possible exception of Joe Liberman, the anti-Iraq war folks handed the Republicans a huge loss last year. So it wasn't 100%. Perhaps it will be the next time.

Lynne

Your reply is MOST appreciated. Thanks.

Even though it's probably for naught, please consider sending e-mails to each of your senators (especially if it turns out that one of them is named Harry Reid).

As much as I enjoy reading and contemplating all of the very perceptive comments on TH, sometimes I despair that this is a bit of an echo chamber. If a number of the many talented thinker/writers on this site would direct a portion of their efforts toward their senators, we might actually see a small glimpse of shame from the Democrats.

Wouldn't that be a miracle?

"Mission Accomplished"
For you Bush haters out there, can you for once remember what that was all about?

Our sailors on that carrier had just done exactly what they were told to do. Conduct major combat operations (a technical term that means kill people and break things to utterly defeat the forces arrayed against you) to remove Saddam and his forces from ruling Iraq.

Gee, that's what they did. Mission Accomplished. So they took some sheets and made a big banner, in the custom and traditions of the U.S. Navy from way back.

Bush never said "mission accomplished." All the administration said was that major combat operations were done. That's a far cry from saying the (very poorly named) global war on terror was over or even won. He was pleased to see that the forces under his command had been justifiably proud of the work they had done, so he gave them their 15 minutes of "fame" by not wrecking their morale by having them take the banner down for political points.

Please stop. My head hurts.

It's All About the Oil
Galen says, "...it should be made clear that, although Harry Reid was talking about the war in Iraq, we are still fighting the wider war on terror..."

Exactly, Mr. Galen. Why should our hard-pressed troops be placed in a struggle that diverts them from that task? I Why should they be giving their lives in an effort to referee a sectarian conflict that has nothing to do with the United States and has been going on for more than a thousand years? Dealing with that is a job for the Iraqis themselves---together with other Middle Eastern countries with a stake in the conflict.

But of course the Bushies won't let go. It's all about the oil....

(Lieing)Lynne do u mean this poll?
A Zogby International/Le Moyne College Poll released yesterday reveals that a whopping 72 percent of American troops serving in Iraq believe the U.S. should leave the country by the end of 2006

I've got an idea
How about directing some of the outrage about Reid to a real outrage. Since operations began in Afghanistan in 2001, the number of soldiers being approved for full disability benefits has DROPPED by 50%. The recent Inspector General's report states that the Pentagon has 'consistently' underrated injured soldiers applying for disability. In fact, according the Army Times, 93% of those injured in Afghanistan and Iraq have received 'low' ratings.

I encourage TH readers to read the Army Times coverage and voice your outrage to your legislators.

Lynne, just showed you
Now walk the walk.

Bryce
I hear ya, but you will never get through to this crowd. When you show them the facts they call u defeatocrats or worse. The Bush administration has been cutting back on this stuff for the last few years. The way it works is, if you hide the details with a compliant republican congress, then you can defuse any outrage. But there is hope, the Democrats in power are now doing America's bidding (finally!) and soon will target the appropoiate miscreants. Thank God for the 2006 elections!

Lynne
I thought all politics was local. BTW your incredibly moronic statement is now scaring me. Also where are those polls?

Lynne
I challenged you on your assertions and am still waiting for your "facts" to show up. I guess it ain't gonna happen.

To RichV
Correction: the "Mission Accomplished" banner was not raised spontaneously by sailors: it was suggested and arranged by the President's PR people. As was Bush's dramatic flight-suited arrival by fighter jet, and if you recall, the public was told this was necessary because the ship was too far at sea to permit a helicopter flight there. Then, guess what, the skyline of San Diego hove into view. So, once again, we were lied to by the White House. Just as in the Jessica Lynch Story and the Pat Tillman Story that we heard about on last night's news. Maybe you like stories. Some of us prefer truth.

Ron states:

"A Zogby International/Le Moyne College Poll released yesterday reveals that a whopping 72 percent of American troops serving in Iraq believe the U.S. should leave the country by the end of 2006"

Ron, I realize that I'm just a thickheaded warmonger, but something's weird with your stated "poll". It was released YESTERDAY and states that a majority of our troops want to leave Iraq 5 months ago?

Perhaps this is a typo. Perhaps this polling service is slow in releasing its results. Or perhaps this poll has nothing whatsoever to do with the point of this article and thread: which is the jaw-dropping irresponsibility of the Democratic Party leadership.

You want to talk about polls? Find another thread where it actually has some relevance.

Investing in failure
One of the things the Left does to ensure the failure and ultimately the demise of the United States of America is to take over our schools and train our boys to be wussies.

I have written a column on this, and I invite everyone to stop by and rant about the Leftie Losers.

can't win?
We can't win? What does that mean? What if we helped them set up some form of democracy that produces some sort of a representative state. And in this state they had Race Relation problems(sunni-shia), innercity or minority poverty (shia population is only now getting meaningful job prospects post saddam), and death rates on par with our city of brotherly love....Philadelphia....1 a day...

Would that then be considered a win? NO (well then what is considered a win nowadays)

What if the american economy had the same GDP output per individual as IRAQ. And the same living standards as well,,, then throw in some (real 90% of the world) muslims who want thier own sharia law.

I venture to say that REID and his friends would not say it's not winnable if that was the situation here and beheadings and bombings going on.

Why bring this up....?? Did we win WW2,, YES REID would agree. Was there collateral damage in WW2 other than our own 700,000 deaths? UMMMMMMMMM yea. Did our population give protest that we lost this many soldiers or killed that many civilians? NO Why not..... the war was justified by the greatest generation. We were attacked remember...

Know this, we were not neutral then or any other time in our history for any conflict. (I personally believe this was right) But to Flay open our(BUSHS)actions in IRAQ as leading us to war and then not to compare them to FDR is ludicruous. FDR instigated the LENDLEASE program for ENGLAND and not GERMANY before we were attacked. We sold (gave) ENGLAND 40 destroyer class ships and all the armaments we could round up before we were attacked. We stopped selling oil and all other commodities to JAPAN and were openly antagonistic to them and thier ally GERMANY. All the while supporting ENGLAND.

The greatest generation ,,, not only did they not protest these actions that got us involved in WW2 they even supported 700,000 deaths. (again I think he did the right thing,,, i must be like mind of the greatest generation)...
BUT NOT THE LEFT of today... we have more reason (international terrorism)...we have less deaths (3500 dead vs. 700,000 then)...we have a volunteer army (conscripted then)......

Can any of you imagine this generation trying to live in the time of the greatest generation.
Can you imagine prospects of america trying to win when the SENATE majority leader of the time would have said "this war is unwinnable"... probably after the first 5000 military deaths.
Think of the mass protests and desertions all over the county,,,(CANADA would have really gotten some AWAL's then).... Can you imagine the House and the Senate starting IMPEACHMENT proceedings against FDR for LENDLEASE programs and others to support ENGLAND.

CAN YOU SEE IT? I can... Put this war in perspective folks and you soon conclude, to date it has been more successful than any other war we have fought... Put this war in perspective and you soon see that going up against evil men (practices) and tyrants is something our great presidents are honored for (sometimes not while the fight is going on,,,Honest ABE LINCOLN).
Don't get me wrong,,, i'm not comparing Bush to Lincoln. But YOU need to grade his actions on presidents of the past that went to war.

I did... he's in the middle folks. Picking up the fight from our last Pres. (slick willy)....
YEP our last commander, viewing our current generation of misfits,losers, and feminized men
did everything possible within his realm, to appease his enemy(going to war he would have had to answer to this generation). his pollsters told him this was BAD.

I guess even though i'm 30 something, i'd like to consider myself with the GREATEST GENERATION,,,then our current stock.
How about yourselvs.????



Retired General Tells It Like It Is

A friend sent me this today. It's alittle long, but I think worth the read.





"Let's Be Specific"

Due to the thunderous applause that I received from the far-left

Over the "I Am Tired" letter written by one of our troops in Iraq, I

Thought it prudent to follow up with one last attempt to be very specific about

What I have observed and actually personally encountered during my 36 years

of service to this Great Country. Unlike Bob McClellan, I will not

continue to whine, twist and degrade our country's leaders on a weekly basis.



Instead, this will be a one time input attempting to reach some

of those who are confused by McClellan and his ilk's unethical rantings and give

some insight through my personal experience as a professional

military officer over the years. These examples are but a few. In

real life there were many more which space and time will not allow.



As a young fighter pilot, flying F-4s in Vietnam, I was stopped

in my tracks by the decisions made by Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. I

was young and naive, but even then I knew their daily interference

was wrong and would not allow us to win this thing and go home.



Decisions like not allowing us to strike enemy aircraft while

still on the ground, keeping real targets off the target list, and allowing us

to strike only rusted-out trucks made us basically a toothpick factory.

However, the big one for me came the day I saw the President Lyndon

Johnson on television, forcefully lying to the American people.



I'll never forget the language, "I want to assure the American

People that the United States of America has never, and will never, bomb or

use force inside the borders of Cambodia". On and on he disavowed the

reports that this was happening. I was amazed. Guess where I had put

several F-4 loads of 750 pound general purpose bombs every day for

the past five days.

You guessed it, Cambodia!!! So much for Mr. Johnson.

The only question in my mind was simply, "Was it just Johnson or was it the

methodology of a particular political party?" I decided to delay

answering that question until more experience was gained.



Years passed, and I ignored politics as much as possible, as a

good military man should. Then came Jimmy Carter. Our young people

don't remember 18% interest rates and 18% inflation, but I'll bet

someone in your family does. That is one really bad thing Carter did for our country,

but it is not the worst.



During this period, I was an F-15 Squadron Commander, located at

Langley AFB, VA. Jimmy Carter and his democratic party stopped spare

parts procurement for almost every weapon system in our military, and

diverted the funds to social programs. The F-15 was brand new at the

time with leading edge technology designed to provide air superiority

anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. That was my job. I loved it, but guess what?

In a two year period from 1979 to 1981, there was not one day when more

that one-third of my assigned aircraft were flyable. It is amazing

the lengths we went to in those days, cannibalizing parts, expending

twice the time and energy to fix every little item, and still two-thirds of the birds

were always broken because of no spare parts. Had this country faced

a really serious military threat during that time frame, only Montana

hunters could have saved us. The military had some equipment, but it was all broken.



Do you want to know the really bad part for me and the young

fighter pilots working for me? Our flying sortie rate was so low that

pilot proficiency dropped to dangerous levels. The accident rate

tripled. That obviously was totally unacceptable, as we were losing

expensive airplanes and highly trained young pilots at a rate

comparable to losses seen in actual combat. All of a sudden, even a

Texas Aggie like me began to see a trend.



Forward a few years to 1986. I am an F-16 Wing Commander at

MacDill AFB, Florida, and Ronald Regan is president. His change in

attitude and policy toward the military had time to fix the spare

parts problem. We were flying 26,000 flying sorties per year out of MacDill AFB, my aircraft

fully mission capable rate (FMC) was above 90%, the aircraft accident rate

was below 1.75 per hundred thousand flying hours, fighter pilots were

flying and proficiency levels were at an all time high. The United

States Air Force was ready to defend this Wonderful Country. Proof of

the pudding is simple.



Look what the USAF, and the military in general, accomplished in

Iraq during Desert Storm. And, they did it in less than 100 hours. Yeah,

at this point I was starting to realize there was a difference in mentality

between Democrats and Republicans, or should I say, the Right and the Left.



Then, came everyone's favorite---Bill Clinton. If there ever was

an individual 180 degrees out of sync with the ideals and the values

of the US military, it was Clinton. He was a known draft dodger, military

hating, self absorbed, unspeakingly shameless and immoral individual,

who the Left managed to elect President of the United States of America. Clinton's

antics in the White House would have brought court martial, conviction,

and Dishonorable Discharge had he been a military member. We still suffer

oral sex on school buses, because the President told the world it wasn't

real sex, and some of our children believed him. It took a lot of ears, but

now I became certain.



There is a big difference in the right and the left on all

fronts, and for the first time I started feeling angry and shamed that the

majority of the American people were actually willing to vote for such an individual.



Sometimes, an abstract such as the following tells the story in

very simple terms: Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Lyndon Johnson, Robert

McNamara, Ted Kennedy, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Michael Moore, Tim

Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Nancy Pelosi, Barbra Boxer, John Kerry,

Benedict Arnold, and the list goes on.



America, wake up. Giving in to the likes of these people and

Abraham Lincoln's prediction of destruction from within just may come

true. There is not a country in the world that can be considered a

conventional military threat to the United States today. However,

this country faces a new kind of threat---one that will not go away.

It is a threat even more serious that WWII, because money, industry

and technology will not defeat it.



It is a threat of defeat from within. It is a threat of a

faltering economy because of a lack of resources, or the even the

simple threat of such a loss brought on by terrorism. It is a threat

created by the American people trusting the inept. It is a threat created by the people

wanting change, and perilously believing that the left can

successfully deliver that change. Have you seen anything from the

left that remotely resembles an answer to the Iraq situation? Have

you seen anything more than continued Bush-Bashing? Is that an answer? If there was ever a need for a

strong, well trained military, it is now.



THE LEFT HAS HISTORICALLY DISMANTLED OUR MILITARY IN THE NAME OF

REDISTRUBITION OF WEALTH FAVORING SOCIAL PROGRAMS. We just cannot afford

To let that happen now. If we do, the entire country will be bowing to

the east several times a day within the next 50 years, maybe sooner.



Now a final thought meant to upset as many as possible on the

far-left. As you might guess, I don't believe in political correctness.

So,let's look at the facts, not far-left rhetoric attempting to empower

the democratic party.



Initially, I was not a George Bush fan. I am not even a Republican.

I normally vote Republican, because of my total despise of Communism,

Socialism and the far-left in this country. I am a Conservative.

However, during his watch, I feel President Bush just happened to

stumble upon the leading edge of the greatest threat this country has

ever faced. Mistakes have been made, because of the newness of the

threat. Overall, the President has done a superb job dealing the

threat, and at the same time held off the constant ranting, raving,

deceitful and malicious escapades of the far-left attempting to regain political power.



IF THERE WAS EVER A TIME THE COUNTRY NEEDS TO COME TOGETHER AND

BACK OUR PRESIDENT, IT IS RIGHT NOW. WITHOUT CONCENSUS WE ARE

EMPOWERING THE TERRORIST!!!! The far-left is totally absorbed with

the power struggle and regaining control of congress. They could care less about defeating

the threat. It literally disgusts me to hear the constant

disagreement with everything the President tries to do, all in the

name of trying to make him look bad to the voters. Unfortunately, by the time the American

people really appreciate how bad the far-left really is, it may tool ate.



What are the real facts? On the home front this country's

economy is the strongest that it has been in my lifetime. Interest

rates are as low as they were when I was in high school forty years ago. Inflation does

not exist for all practical purposes. For you youngster's, please

remember the Jimmy Carter comments? The Dow is approaching 13,000. Unemployment is

nonexistent. Wages are at an all time high. Home ownership is at an

all time high. Taxes have been lowered to an almost acceptable level.

Because of the surging economy the deficient is under control and

projected to go away far ahead of schedule. The far-left is rich

beyond its wildest dreams, so Mr.President when are you going to "fix" all these domestic problems?



On the war front this country has not been touched since 2001. I

remember being part of a seminar at the USAF War College in 1983

discussing the terrorist threat. There were some good minds at that table and a

lot of disagreement. However, one common thought was that the US would be

hit within the next five years. Answers to the terrorist threat were

just as hard to come by then as they are now. Well, it took a little

longer than the projection, but the attack occurred. For an old

military guy like me, the main point here is that it has not happened

again. We have suckered the bad guys into entering the fight somewhere other than in our country.

To hell with political correctness. The President can't say this, but

I sure can.



I smile every morning when I get up and realize that one of our

Great cities has not been blown away. And, there is zero doubt in my mind

That if we pull out of Iraq prematurely, that will happen within a short

period of time after our departure. I don't care what you might think of

President Bush personally. He has done the best he can with what he

has, and this country is not smoking because of it. So, back off McLean and McClellan.

You honestly don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Call

me, and I will tell you what I really think.



I realize there are different points of view on war, and I do

not believe the meek will inherit the earth, at least not in the next

few hundred years. To those like McClellan, McLean, poor Eve Kyes and

Sinowa Cruz let me say, "This is a strong country!!!" It has survived

the uneducated thinking of the far-left before, and I'll just bet it

will again.



Regardless of who is President, the people will not tolerate

mass explosions on a daily basis, as our good friends in Israel have

been forced to do. To protect that position of power, even Hillary will be forced

to become a true hawk. To guarantee a few more votes Ted Kennedy may

be forced to begin supporting a strong military. One more attack on America

might even wipe the giddy,'I-am-finally-somebody' grin from Nancy

Pelosi's face, and make her realize that is not about votes and personal power. IT

IS ABOUT PROTECTING THIS GREAT COUNTRY FROM ALL ENEMIES, BOTH FOREIGN

AND DOMESTIC.



Jimmy L. Cash, Brig. Gen., USAF, Ret.



"Victory at all cost. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory no

matter how long and how hard the road may be; for without victory

there

is

no survival"

Winston Churchill

May 13, 1940



GOD BLESS AMERICA !

Mission Accomplished
Regardless of who raised the banner what mental midget would actually believe it was over and done at that point. We in the military knew this was going to be a long haul.

Ron, I served for 23 years USAF, 1 tour in Kirkuk, and another in Balad, and yourself?

Maybe you will annswer this: why does your party get the endorsement of the major terrorist organizations? Why is and does your party and Tokyo Rose, and the terror organizations all say the same things: We support you, your President is lying to you, you can't win. During Clinton years you Dems should us how to deal with terrorist, talk tough and do nothing. You have earned the title of Dhimmi, wear it proud.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

RetiredSquid writes:
Thanks for posting the letter from Jimmy L. Cash, Brig. Gen., USAF, Ret.

It won't sit well with the loony libs. They will resort to their usual MO of trying to re-write history to deny the truth.

It's no coincidence that military men and women are mostly conservatives. The very reason the dems in the Gore/Lieberman election year wanted to keep their over-seas (absentee ballot) votes from being counted in Florida ....while at the same time putting the nation through the 'hanging chad' spectacle!

When Rumsfeld said that you have to fight a war with the military you have ....not the one you wish you had (or something close to that sentiment) ....he was ridiculed by the left.

Thanks again for posting the general's letter, shedding light on the facts of how the 'new' Dems have weakened our military's readyness and thus made our nation much more vulnerable to attacks from our enemies.

Finally,
the Dems, through Harry Reid, have given us a clear picture of their position and their intentions. We must take Galen's advice and get all politicians to take a stand on this war.

Let's make them declare support or condemnation of Reid's statements. Red or Black. Once we understand where each stands, we can watch their actions and see who is tilting the table to insure a payoff.

Let us force them to do something they detest, be accountable. No more political opportunism. No more having it both ways.

Ron
To your question:
Why aren't you over there instead of posting on TH?

Answer #1 I'm am too old, having fought in VietNam 1971-72.
Answer #2 I have 2 sons in the military, one of them in Iraq. ANYTHING that hinders the war effort is very personal to me!

johninoregon
What does "it's all about the oil" mean? Any other cliches to toss out?

What do you expect
Harry Reid comes from a state who's major industries are gambling and prostituiton.

Packrat
My comments are meant to reflect on the facts that we need to get out of Iraq and that it is a hopeless case. I hope your son makes it home safe. I have a son, soon to be 16 and I believe if this war continues there will be a draft. I believed that the war in Afghanistan was just. Unfortunately, it was botched before it was completed in order to go into Iraq. Now we have two half baked wars. The soldiers on the ground are doing their job, better than I ever could. I hope all of them can get back home in one piece.

An earlier post referred to my posting of a Zogby poll. I knew it was old, but it was the only one I could quickly find on the web to refute the statement that the soldiers wanted to stay over there. Now, since things have only gotten exponentially worse since that poll was released, I can't imagine that that number would be reversed. As I implored Lynne to post the polls to back up her initial statements, she has yet to do so.

Lynne made a statement that when the elections were held in 2006 "...into consideration that the dems won the majority of the last election, and something like 80% of the voters DID NOT even know who Nancy Pelosi was." Pelosi wasn't on my ballot, was she on yours? I can only imagine how shocked people were when they found out they voted for Newt Gingrich to be Speaker. Lynne, things don't work that way, perhaps you should spend less time reading the rants of TH columnist and more time reading the Constitution.

Zogby/LeMoyne Poll
Take a look at the following site regarding the Zogby/LeMoyne poll previously referred to:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2006/02/the_zogby_poll_.html

The site doesn't make grand proclamations about the results, but evaluates the methodology for possible flaws.

Be careful about depending on polls to give you truth. It seems that often you can find polls that will support either side of most issues.

You might want to find corroborating evidence before quoting one poll result as truth.

Ron - Who is qualified?
According to you, only those in the military are qualified to support the war.

If civilians and non-veterans are not qualified to determine that war is warranted, then they are not qualified to determine that war is unwarranted.

Telling civilians to shut up unless they sign up is not an honest argument. It is designed to shut up the opposition.

Conservatives Lost The War
This war was lost before we invaded. President Bush and the Republican Majority went to war against a soverign nation that has not attacked us, with misleading and false reasons, ideology and a perception of fear with pent up patriotism and fear and with no plan for the post removal of Saddam.

Conservative talk radio and Cable news (especially FOX) and other bloggers and pundits supressed anyone who spoke up against the war or challanged any of Bush's reasons by labeling them as "Traitors", "Hate America Crowd", "Unpatriotic" or "Blame America First". The startegy, Attack and supress the opposition, make it personal and attack credibility and patriotism worked. The liberal media backed-off and let Bush have his war. So you folks got us into a war without any real planning or opposition.

Now five years later, after all the reasons for going to war have been disproved, no victory in sight and getting it all worong, you have the hutzbah to criticize Democrates. They are just trying to clean up your mess.

Today you are back at your old ways name calling liberals and democrates as traitors and unpatriotic. This is what got us in trouble in the first place.

You have learned nothing of the mess you created. It is time for some reflection and humility and step aside before you make matters worse.

stedes
I agree with a lot of what you just said; however, the Democrats are no different. The House had and has the Constitutional authority to de-fund the war. Not micro-manage it, as they tried to do in their last bill. They also had the opportunity to take back Congress' Constitutional authority to declare war that they so stupidly ceded to the President after 9-11. The verbiage to do just that was in the bill, but after pressure by lobbyists, they removed it.

So, if they want the war to end, it is within their Constitutional authority to make that happen. They should stop talking about it and put the legislation forward, MINUS all the pork and micromanagement.

By the way, have you seen Hillary's latest statement about how we should invade Iran? Still think there is a real difference in foreign policy?

Conservatives used to believe in a foreign policy of non-intervention. It was the Democrats who sought out every opportunity to preemptively attack sovereign nations. Conservatives still believe the same way, but apparently the big government Republicans, do not. Should tell you something.

stedes
You whine about the conservatives calling you socialist pukes "unpatriotic" and "unAmerican".

Well, that's because you are.

As far as I'm concerned, you serve no purpose and pose no solutions. You want the USA to surrender. That's not a solution.

So I, DavidMac, with my feet firmly planted on the RIGHT side of the political spectrum, call you, Stedes, an unpatriotic, unAmerican socialist puke.

Run away, coward, go hide in the DailyKos or the HuffPo where you'll be amongst you own kind.


T
What are you talking about? FDR was a socialist pig!

DavidMac
I'm about as conservative as one can get, but I think we have to come up with a plan to extricate ourselves from this mess called Iraq. We accomplished what we stated we were trying to do when we went in there. There is no one better in the entire world than our soldiers when it comes to fighting and winning. They succeeded once again. However, this building of infrastructure and economies is not what they were trained to do. We have a civil war between factions in Iraq now and a new Iraqi government that appears to be very corrupt at its core. Until the Iraqi people step up and take control of their own government and their future, do you honestly believe our staying there is going to fix anything?

Hey stedes...
...if We already lost the War against terrists, what are you going to do to comply with the victors?

Will you now become a muslam?

Will you quit being a homosexual?

Will you don a burka?

Will you be on your knees five times a day for them?


Mountain Rose
I happen to agree with you that we now have "a nation of wussies" and I find it disgusting. However, I apparently disagree with you on the definition of patriotism. To me it means following our Founders' intent in the Constitution and putting America first in all dealings. It is for this reason that I have always disagreed with invading Iraq. They had nothing to do with 9-11 and the evidence about WMDs was wanting even then. Once we went there, I supported getting the troops anything and everything they needed. We accomplished the stated goals. Now, it is time to extricate ourselves from this mess. It is not losing, when you accomplished your goals.

I would really like to have a military left after all this is said and done that could actually be used to defend OUR OWN country. Bin Ladin or whomever was responsible for the bombing is still out there, not to speak of our country being literally invaded by a foreign country... Mexico and who knows how many terrorists our government have allowed to just walk right on in.

Congress Has Implied Authority
Liberty - I think there is some implied interpertation. When someone is given the power of money, they can have some say in how it is spent, where it is targeted and conditions. It is not a blank check do whatever you want.

It would not be unreasonable (in view) for congress to ask for progress reports, audits and milestones as a condition for the money. In my view this is implied authority.

Practically speaking I agree with you. The Congress is not an effective place to micro-manage a war. But Congress over the last five years stayed out of managing the war and let Bush do whatever he wanted. We now have a failing situation due to Bush's incompetence. So Congress feels they must get involved. All they have is monry to influence the war. I beleive they are right to do so. Either they stop all funding or they put conditions on it to get the war back on track.

BTW - As a volunteer for my Local United Way resource committee, this is exactly what we do when we grant funding to chartiable organizations. The money comes from theUnited Way with strings attached. Targeted programs with a benefit analysis along with progress reports and tiem tables.

Somebody?
Will somebody, anybody please tell me exactly when Harry Reid was elected Commander-in-Chief? Even David Brooks has had it with him. And will somebody from the Edwards campaign give that man a makeover(at least I think he is a man) he looks like the female in the painting of "American Gothic"!

Send Pelosi scarves and Reid white flags
Send Pelosi more head scarves so when the caliphate saws her head off she'll be properly dressed and send Harry Reid white flags, to show him what he is talking about.
Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi
> 235 Canon HOB
> Washington, DC
> 20515
>
Senator Harry Reid
528 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510


dillwweed
posted, "DavidMac is the coward."


Really, dillweed? Can you cite an example? I'll match my time in a combat zone against both yours AND stedes', that is, if you've ever actually been in a combat zone.

You little girlymen whine and complain about conservatives, but you never would or could walk a mile in the boots I've worn.

Advocating surrender is cowardice.

LIBERTY: The US has done too little in Iraq. With the media's chronic "bad news" and the logistical support the enemy gets from Iran and Syria (who we can't touch), the USA needs to rethink its small unit tactics. The conventional phase (regime change) went extremely well with few casualties. After Hussein's regime was finished, the enemy changed tactics. They went after civilians and women and children, they used IED's (not direct infantry on infantry) tactics. They wear no uniforms, have no in-country HQ.

The USA needs to fight the war at home, too. The leftist media never report good news (when was the last time you heard any ENEMY casualty report)? It's been a constant barrage of bad news and emphasis on American casualties.

Is there an easy solution? Nope. I don't know the capability or the new technology of our troops (and you don't either). That's all classified stuff. I do know that simply withdrawing our forces will GUARENTEE that we lose the war and get a million Iraqis who supported us killed.

The Democrats think that's acceptable, as they did in Vietnam. I don't think it is.

stedes
Go back to school, you are misintepreting the powers clause of the Constitution. Is it unreasonable to expect our elected members to exercise some common sense? Is it unreasonable for us to expect our members of Congress not to give away the play book to the opposing team? Especially when the troops and their commanders are warning that the enemy is listening. As to the Bush mistakes you live in the land of unrealistic expectations. Yep, mistakes were made. No doubt about it. But never in the history of warfare does that mean you just quit like a petulant child who isn't winning at the game. You do what ever it takes to win or don't ever go to war at all and see how long you last. That's right, lay down and die and don't defend yourself ever. Didn't your mother ever tell you "Quitters never win" or "A job worth doing is a job well done"? If we quit WWII because of all of the mistakes we would be speaking German and eating sushi and not by choice. You lack perspective. You are also naive. This is nothing but a giant power grab by Congress! Period!

DavidMac
I would also add one thing. Our reputation and authority in the world will be sorely diminished. A reputation that we have paid dearly for. The Dems claim that has happened now, but even if it were true, it hasn't happened to the extent that it will be if we cut and run. America will be known that we are no longer as good as our handshake or word. We will be untrustworthy to say the least. Yet, the Dems claim to care about our reputation, I find that really rich!

stedes
There is no such thing as "implied" power. Either the USC delegates the power or it doesn't. Congress doesn't have the power to micromanage foreign policy or the military.

"Conservatives Lost The War
This war was lost before we invaded."

No it wasn't. That's utterly idiotic.

"President Bush and the Republican Majority went to war against a soverign nation that has not attacked us,"

Let's see... they attacked an ally, lost, gained peace subject to UN orders for ceasefire, violated them repeatedly, was bombed repeatedly by Clinton to no avail, frustrated and resisted inspection efforts, would not account for weapons that inspectors said he had, applauded 9/11 stating that he wished to support terrorism against the US,... at the point we invaded he was ready to kick the inspectors out altogether. This from the man who is the only head of state that I am aware of to use bio/chem weapons against an enemy much less his own people since maybe WW I.

If nerve agents were good enough for the Kurds... what do you think he might have given terrorists to use on us or the Israelis?

With a Hitler like maniac promising to help terrorists attack you presumably with WMD's... the days when you could simply wait for the bad guys to make their move are gone. Blather all you want about how wrong preemptive war is... but it is far superior to millions of New Yorkers dead from a chem weapons attack.

"with misleading and false reasons,"

That is false and misleading. The intel said what it said and ALL of our leaders believed it not just Bush and Cheney. Everyone with access said that Saddam had to be dealt with. Clinton had an official regime change policy. Kerry called it a slam dunk. Can you name a Dem leader who wasn't on board at the start? They were afraid it would succeed and they'd be hurt politically. Now they're deceitfully acting as if they were skeptical all along. They're liars.

The fact is that every reputable intel agency in the world said he had WMD's as well as UN inspectors. There are still weapons that the inspectors said he had that have never been accounted for. Bush did the ONLY rational, responsible thing.

"ideology and a perception of fear with pent up patriotism"

The fear was justified in light of who Saddam was and what he was capable of.

No one would ever accuse you all of pent up patriotism. But FTR, I'm not that patriotic... I just have enough sense to know a significant threat when I see one.

"and fear and with no plan for the post removal of Saddam."

That's interesting. They had a plan but they didn't count on outsiders pouring in to expand the war. People who are attacking mostly Iraqis. This operation comparatively speaking has had no more setbacks than any other war we've WON... certainly many less than the Civil War for the Union.

The only way the enemy can win is if we prove to them that we are as spineless and weak as they believe we are... the Reids of the world are proving just that.

Cowardice will never defeat this idealogues.


weak....
In gulf war 1,,, there were some conditions of the Saddam regime, that they agreed to stop the war from going to BAGHDAD.
1. the no fly zone (this was to help rebels against saddam)
2. categorize, label, and locate all WMD's in the country of IRAQ with UN inspectors.

Of course just after the shellacking Saddam took he was going to follow this pretty closely. They did not shoot at us (patrolling the no-fly) and the inspectors catalogued nerve and gasses of WMD. (cataloging means giving it a vin#, special taping the seal,etc...this is important so as to be sure Saddam did not just empty these shells and put the stuff in others.)

Time goes on....Saddam grows beligerent again (this is what got him into kuwait) and now starts shooting at our planes patrolling and moves the catalogued WMD's... plus we and every other nation now suspect other WMD programs. He runs the inspectors around and around... demanding to know where they are going, for how long, what they can and can not look for, ect....

We grow weak... we go to the UN... Look we say, he is breaking the agreement he signed to end the last war.... but by this time Saddam has got enough votes behind him that he can skirt the issues, his OIL FOR FOOD scandal has the CHINESE, RUSSIANS, FRENCH, and the UN in his pocket. Thus 14 UN resolutions come and go and nothing changes.
9/11 Changes everything,,, Bushs philosophy now is we will be proactive on these AL Qeada types(I say types because AL Qeada is not the only threat to the US you have AL ANSAR al ISLAM and probably 20 others that were either In IRAQ directly or supported by IRAQ)... We will not wait to let Saddam give his WMD's to some radical organization (thus claiming it was not him, but leaving the same result here) or let him use them himself.

Can you imagine the outcry from Harry Reid if we did not go in and some other group we knew was there attacked us with nerve agents.

We go through the UN and demand to know where the cataloged nerve agents are. As well as all the other crap that was there before Saddam got scared and shipped it off to JORDAN. He says it's gone....... No proof just gone,, the UN inspectors catalogued WMD's are gone. Of course this is good enough for the UN, France, China, Russia,,,,, they are getting car deals, oil kickbacks, strait cash,,,oil vouchers (future Iraqi oil). Hans BLIX just needs more time..... "and a few envelopes stuffed with cash himself"

BUSH does not believe SADDAM,(as does the rest of the USA) and we go in.....BBBBUUUUUTTTT we don't find the WMD's we are searching for.
Instead of placing the blame upon SADDAM and him inviting us in by not producing the WMD's he moved to Jordan and the stuff the UN catalogued. The US is accussed of a AMORAL war.
(the only thing amoral about it is all the $ and stuff certain countries were getting by breaking the sanctions.)
Worse yet the LEFT in this country jumps on the UN bandwagon. (maybe they also were on SADDAMS payroll) What we get treated to by our own media (they are on the lefts payroll) is HALLIBURTON, OIL profits, and needless death crap. Bush (republican)popularity plummets DEMS pick up seats and take the House and Senate.

Don't know about you... but I feel like some poor roman citizen viewing the end of thier civilization. (and the majority of the folks don't even know whats going on)



Dillweed
Unfortunately, we do not get to choose our battles.

It is easy to say " I would".

It is much harder to say " I ( ), having been appointed a (rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.

I have.

Scooter
Hate to burst your bubble, but look up the America First movement led by Charles Lindburgh and the German-American Bund. There was extensive protest against Roosevelt's aid to England before Pearl Harbor ended debate. History is usually complicated.

This just about sums up the situation...
...about the current White House operation-"The Office of Special Counsel, led by Scott Bloch, is in charge of enforcing the Hatch Act. At the same time, Bloch himself is being investigated by the Bush administration on separate matters, including his enforcement of the Hatch Act" The incompetence of this administration will and has, take your breadth away. One guy is investigating another guy while being investigated himself. Pathetic. And right wing morons try to blame all this on liberals or worse Clinton and even stretch back to Carter. No shame.

BTW
The Dems if they get their way will ensure that Iraq collapses into a extremist state.

McCain is not only right on this one... he's saying what should become the #1 GOP talking point. "If we pull out, the enemy will follow us home"... That will ensure that the blame for the next wave of domestic attacks falls squarely where it should... on Dems acting on political opportunism at the expense of national security.

Harry in WW2 history
If harry were the senator back in WW2 1941,

I Harry Reid condenm the actions of an amoral Franklin D Roosevelt president, to keep trying to win an UNWINNABLE war. We are wasting lives and i further demand that ABC,NBC, and CBS news start reporting on our military deaths (not thiers) thus helping shape public opinion against the MURDERER Roosevelt. We also need to investigate the companies that are supplying and servicing our personell,,, such as GM FORD Boeing and whoever else comes to mind that is making profits in this war.....When will that president come to his senses.... I therefore am packaging a bill to him that mandates that he has 4 months to win this thing (can't leave a force in GERMANY after the war either)he also cannot bomb cities where any civilians may die. And if we lose more than 3000 men doing this then the media should act like this is the worst war losses we have ever taken.... I also believe our president was reckless by putting japanese americans in(concentration camps) and am therefore drawing up impeachment papers,,, or you take care of that KUCINICH... Finally my right hand woman PELOSI is chapped about the prospect of all the men coming back for thier jobs and with the National Organizaion for Women is championing that all men must serve 1 year as housekeepers before allowed back in the workforce....
Thankyou America and remember to vote Democrap

dillweed
"i would fight to defend our country
but not to occupy another one for (fill in the blanks: political hegemony, control of another's resources, to prepare for a larger war against Iran, etc...)"

That's about as noble as it is intelligent... not very much.

You're making this judgment in a world that no longer exists. If we are going to wait for them then we have to become a police state on par with the old Soviets. What you propose is the equivalent of someone in 1942 saying, "I'll fight the Germans and Japanese when they get to Kansas."

The 9/11 attack extended a recession for 18 months. Our economy and way of life as we know it ends if terrorists could manage to hit just 10 of our larger cities with a WMD attack. That's why they must be fought where they are rather than allowing them a sanctuary to prepare.

"we aren't defending anything over there.
bring the boys (and girls) back home... NOW"

Are you really that remote from reality? WE are defending the place you say you'd fight to defend... in their backyard, not YOURS.

You might be like alot of liberals and believe that we can talk this out with them. We can't. They see this as a win or lose war. If we don't defeat them, they will defeat us.

Study their theology and worldview. They are at war with you personally if you are not muslim or dhimmi (sp?). Not the US, not conservatives, not Jews... YOU.

You better either wake up.

... or
get your guns.

ken
ken

that movement was so extensive and persuasive that it convinced the media (like today) and america that FDR was leading us to war.... in fact it was awesome and led to us turning against the war back in 1940. Funny how 700,000 deaths is OK but 3000 is the end of times.
I further recall that movement calling FDR a Murderer on numerous occasions and the opposite party in power at the time REPUBLICANS just chewing at the bit to jump all over FDR and the Democrats for leading us into war... with misleading data toooo JUST IMAGINE
Ken What an awesome world it was.

Scooter
You forgot the part about where FDR really did lie and deceive the American people about his intent to get us involved on England's side. I don't know about Pearl Harbor or his supposed advanced knowledge. But he persistently had a disinformation campaign about his desire to involve the US. He wanted in but the American people were overwhelmingly against it.

He needed Pearl or something like it... attacks on our shipping wasn't quite enough.

Lynne


Thanks, Lynne. Already have, and other conservative blogs. I posted it on a couple of moonbat blogs I visit every once in a while to stir things up at and it lasted about 30 secs. at each. Lol!

Thanks PB


The dismantling of the military began in 1976 under Carter. President Reagan did as much as he could do to build it back up (much more than anyone thought possible), then it continued through Clinton. I'm not excusing Bush 41 here, because he did his "dismantling", too, when he started he base closure rounds. If the far-left had thier way, we would have NO military.

This is one of the reasons I have alot of trouble supporting McCain. He has voted for every single base closure bills, even the ones that make no sense.

karenkc
I'll rise to the bait.

I feel sorry for the guardsman if you are so insulting to opinions counter to yours.

Mid schoolers can be insulting.It requires no maturity or intellect You say the President is a disgrace as if it is a fact rather than an opinion.

You will need maturity if he stays in the Guard, and you have to interact with other spouses.


Embrace the War
Wonderful idea! Stridently embrace the war in Iraq. Laud the outstanding job done by the Bush Administration. Proclaim everywhere, "A Republican Vote is a Vote For the War." Don't be bothered that two thirds of the nation disagrees with that assessment. After all, purity is much more important than merely winning elections. It is more fun to find fault than to govern. The way things are going you can find yourselves in that position for decades to come.

sjt18
Gordon W. Prange wrote two excellant books on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt had no prior knowledge. He, like the military leaders, expected an attack on the Philippines and Southeast Asis. He also wanted to keep the lid on with Japan as he did not want a Pacific war as a distraction from what was happening in Europe. It is possible that the British had some advance knowledge, but nothing definative has been found.

Ken
You speak of "purity" in the Republican part. Look what happened to Lieberman when he had the audacity to deviate from the Dem's party line.

missing the point...
ken you are missing the point on whether or not FDR actually knew pearl harbor was coming or was involved with all the details that made it a surprise.,,, (I personally am not jaded enough to believe he wanted US deaths, unlike MOVEON.org.)
The point is that when we are grading this president for his actions we are matching him up against our past..."anything else would be uncivilized"... And I bring this to you to have you "see" the difference in America today vs. America then the (greatest generation).
Back then in 1939 and 1940 before we were at war, we had special programs set up for ENGLAND and not GERMANY OR JAPAN,, this was an umbrella program called LENDLEASE.. the idea being that they could buy our war and foodstuffs and pay back later (read never) this basically was FDR's way of saying I like my buddy Winston Churchill and not Hitler. We also sold them 40 destroyer class warships as well as any other weapons.
AMERICA was NEUTRAL,,, in words only...(again I am not against what FDR did I think he did the right thing against an EVIL man and empire),,
The great newspaper the NEW YORK TIMES "all the news that fit to print" obviously did not view this as bad and worthy of articles showing the discrepancy. 700,000 future deaths on the line but they won't go there.
After pearl harbor ,,, FDR ok's "concentration camps" for all japanese Americans in Hawaii and the west coast,,, surely someone in the media back then would pick up the plight of a race of Americans being forced into camps. NOPE>>>>
Not to mention any German Americans that might have been hollered down.
That is what happened then,, but according to the left... the patriot act is the biggest threat "ever" to american's rights. HMMMMMMMM
Now ken if you lived back then I suggest YOU would have supported this action because we were afraid of a japanese landing and a few japanese americans had spied for JAPAN on our Hawaii facilities. I don't even think that the Japanese americans at that time were more upset about being put in these camps or not being given the chance to (show they were americans too) by fighting against JAPAN. They later go to the Europeon campaign and are some of our best GI's.
KEN can you see the difference in our country today vs. yesteryears.

IF the MEDIA, ACLU, MOVEON, Jesse Jackson, Sharpton, Harry Reid, Pelosi, MURTHA and others been around back in 1940 we probably would not have.
1. entered WW2. Pearl Harbor can be negotiated with the Japanese as we are not a Neutral country vis-a-vis them and Germany against England. Remember this is the crowd of make peace not war. Avoid war at any cost. Lets investigate the president about why we were not neutral. We need Committee hearings to determine how 40 destroyers were given to ENGLAND while we are neutral. The Lendlease program led to this. Ancient American and English gunboat diplomacy in the orient has angered the Japanese to attack us,,(its our fault). Our racism against minorities asians, blacks and German Americans is what led JAPAN to try and FREE them from this oppressive land.

ken can you see it....can you dig it....

2. We would have never gone on to win it...that war back then cost us 700,000 some odd deaths not to mention the collateral damage our bombings caused. Al Franken would be invited by Hitler to broadcast from Berlin and report on the damage going on by evil ENGLISH and AMERICAN bombers. (he might really like this assignment as he would be running for the senate in MINNESOTA and there are lots of GERMAN AMERICANS in the great lakes area,,this would mean votes)
Jesse and AL sharpton would be traveling around making stump speaches about how Black boys were disrescted by not being able to fight with the white boys (they were seperated)but also they were wastin time over in Europe on FRANKLINS war.

Ken if you can't see it then your eyes ain't open my friend.

Now to the big question... are we better off now with the way our country is? vis then?
And how does BUSH look vis FDR, LINCOLN etc.
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