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Friday, May 02, 2008
Rebecca Hagelin :: Townhall.com Columnist
Abstinence: In the "No"
by Rebecca Hagelin
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Who could argue with the idea that, when it comes to sex education, our teenagers should be taught to say “no”? Considering what’s at stake (their health, their future, their dignity as human beings, their morality) -- and because we love them and want what’s best for them -- nothing short of a clear-cut abstinence message will do.

At least, that’s how it appears out here in the Real World. In the rarified air of a congressional hearing room, it’s another matter. According to several witnesses (including John Santelli of the Guttmacher Institute, and Max Siegel of the AIDS Alliance for Children, Youth & Families) who spoke recently before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, abstinence education is not only impractical, it’s dangerous.

Many critics of the abstinence-only programs that have been federally funded over the past 11 years resort to the old kids-will-be-kids argument. They’ll “do it anyway,” we’re told, so we’re wasting time and money on an idealistic charade. Worse, we’re depriving our rutting youth of the “protection” they need to make their unions non-fruitful and disease-free.

Lawmakers didn’t hear from actual teenagers, though. “The greatest failure of this committee was not allowing those that were being talked about -- the teens themselves -- the opportunity to share how and why abstinence programs have worked for them,” said Leslee Unruh, president of the Abstinence Clearinghouse. “I saw abstinent young adults in the audience appearing frustrated, saying they wish they could share their opinion on this matter.”

A quick review of the resulting coverage finds that the witnesses’ agenda has a receptive audience among the media. Typical headlines include “Abstinence-only sex ed discredited” (Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, Indiana), “A real-world solution to teenage pregnancy” (Houston Chronicle) and “Abstinence-only education not enough” (Rapid City Journal, South Dakota).

I hate to interrupt their collective dream with something as inconvenient as the facts. Actual research, however, shows that the abstinence message works.

In a major new paper, Christine Kim and Robert Rector of The Heritage Foundation sifted carefully through numerous studies on the effectiveness of abstinence programs and found clear evidence that they work. “In addition to teaching the benefits of abstaining from sexual activity until marriage, abstinence programs focus on developing character traits that prepare youths for future-ori­ented goals,” the researchers write.

But some teenagers get pregnant anyway, the critics reply. True. As Kim and Rector note:

“Each year, some 2.6 million teenagers become sexually active -- a rate of 7,000 teens per day. Among high school students, nearly half report having engaged in sexual activity, and one-third are currently active.”

Yet this doesn’t amount to an argument against teaching abstinence. No one ever said that abstinence programs would wipe out teen pregnancy. Any improvement on this front is nothing short of miraculous, given the barrage of trashy media and cultural messages targeted at kids. The critics are engaging in a classic “straw man” argument, and they should be called on it.

The real question is: Do abstinence programs make the problem any better? Kim and Rector show that they do. In my book, Home Invasion, I cited additional Heritage research:

“In the decade or so that true abstinence-only programs have grown in popularity, the percentage of teens who say they have had sex by the time they leave high school has fallen from 56 to 48. A popular component of the abstinence-only movement, virginity pledges, has produced even better results. According to The Heritage Foundation, teens who take a virginity pledge are less likely to become pregnant by age 18, and will have fewer sexual partners in their lifetime than teens who do not take a pledge.”

We also must ask ourselves if the alternative -- so-called “comprehensive sex education,” with its pornographic emphasis on the mechanics of sex -- is any better. These programs have proven to be dismal failures. They’ve held sway for years in our nation’s classrooms, and teen sexual behavior, STDs and pregnancies have all been going up. As Kim and Rector point out:

“Today’s young people face strong peer pressure to engage in risky behavior and must navigate media and popular culture that endorse and even glamorize permissiveness and casual sex. Alarm­ingly, the government implicitly supports these messages by spending over $1 billion each year pro­moting contraception and safe-sex education -- 12 times what it spends on abstinence education.”

I hope you find that as outrageous as I do. Our teens deserve better than just a condom and a message to “be safe.” Our children are not animals, incapable of controlling themselves. They are not hopelessly immoral creatures who are going to “do it anyway.” Yet “comprehensive” sex ed teaches them that they’re just that. Parents, this is a slander against our youth. It’s a lie -- one that we must fight.

Teaching abstinence may be hard work -- and heaven knows it’s not going to win you any popularity contests. But for the sake of our teens, there’s simply no substitute. In the end, you’re the only real “protection” they’ve got. So don’t let them down.

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About The Author
Rebecca Hagelin is a public speaker on the family and culture and the author of the new best seller, 30 Ways in 30 Days to Save Your Family.
 
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bad science
This should be obvious to people who are actually concerned primarily with protecting children, but if one cares about children one should want to follow good scientific practices in trying to figure out what works.

Hagelin, in her article, complains that Congress did not hear anecdotal evidence, when anecdotal evidence is pretty useless in these contexts. In a country our size one can find more than enough people to support any side of this debate without regard to what actually works. If Congress decided to avoid that charade then good for them.

Even worse is the idea of comparing teens who take abstinence pledges with those who don't and assuming a causal influence. Is there anyone who really doesn't know that studies like that require comparing groups that are otherwise comparable, and there is nothing random about who takes those pledges. Differences between these groups are not irrelevant, but it is just silliness to think that the taking of the pledge is the key causal factor.

Of course there have been studies which actually compare groups of students of similar backgrounds who have gone through the abstinence only, the abstinence plus, and no sex education. But the problem for Hagelin is that they all support the abstinence plus approach. That is why people who prioritize protecting children favor that approach. People who prioritize sending the moral message to children even if it does not do the most to protect them tend to favor the abstinence only.

Our children are growing up faster
One thing often sited by the right in this debate is that exposure to "safe sex" instruction will encourage promiscuity. I think there's enough encouragement of that in our society as it is. I see nothing wrong with giving our children all the tools they need to navigate today's complex word. "Just say no" should be the dominant message they get, but NOT the only one.

Years ago Ann Landers said...
to women that the pill was the answer to avoiding pregnancy. Put it between your knees, and made sure it never hits the ground.

Today people are so weak and undisciplined, that they can't say "NO" to anything.

Good morning to everyone
Stop by Fountain Abbey for my latest blog, on a topic that has the old Friar hopping mad.

I can't believe the cr*p that happens in America today. It's high time for some changes, but not the kind Obama thinks we need. What we need is to change all the liberal lunacy that has been foisted on us over the last forty years or so.

I have more bad anecdotal evidence
after 33 years in public school and college teaching, I find students are starving for someone to speak traditional values to them.

They want someone to say that condoms can't prevent herpes--herpes appears on legs and buttocks and is not protected by a condom.

They want someone to say you can never get pregnant or a veneral disease (I like the allusion to Venus in the word root) if you abstain from what I call idiot sex. Idiot sex comes from drugs and alcohol, believing the cant that everyone does it (they don't), and worrying no one will ever love you. If they only love you after a night of jello shots, I give it 15 mins to six hours max.

I don't ever tell kids not to have sex per se, but I do tell them you can't post yourself on the internet (a new prom night initiation) and expect to get certified in law, medicine, education, and most careers. You can't pose in Playboy and be a NYC cop. Ny NEA Today newsletter just ran a page of so-called professionals who have been suspended or fired for posting pix of their genitals, using their school computer to store pix of their students in their underwear, and a coach and principal celebrating a promotion on someone's desk.

Since I'm old, I don't care about being friends with students, but I really care that they understand pornography as a word comes for pornos, ancient Greek, for the lowest, cheapest, most most sordid prostitutes in Classical Athens. They need to undersand, esp. young women, that they could jeopardizing their future fertility, their dreams of a home and family, and their own self images.


Saying No
Sister Mary Bernadette said *Eat an apple. Instead.*

Saying No to sex is only a beginning. Saying No to shoplifting, No to harassing other kids (sexually or bullying), No to skipping school, No to throwing garbage on the floor, No to passing notes, No to cheating, No to text messaging during class and No to sassing the teacher are also things the kids need to learn.

Instead of pretending it is the Sixties and focusing all our attention on our wee-wee, why not emphasize all the things in life that a kid needs to learn to say NO to? Make indiscriminate sex only one of a list of things to which decent people say No.

The Sixties are Over. The wee-wee is not your god. (Pay no attention to those Viagara and Cialis ads!) Taking responsibility for saying No to all kinds of degrading, demeaning and unprincipled behaviour is what will save your world.

Take back the ownership of No.

Ann Landers
P.S. Ann Landers said the answer to *How can it be wrong when it feels so right?* is that what it feels is Natural, and many things that feel Natural are not right. List some of these.

Three issues
First, if abstinence is not being taught by parents at home, then abstinence teaching in school is not going to be very effective anyway.
And what if a single parent teaches his/her kids abstinence, but then allows the kids to see a constant parade of strangers entering and leaving Mom/Dad's bedroom? Or what if a married couple is unfaithful to one another? The success of abstinence training ALSO depends on the parents matching their actions to their words.

Second, childhood abstinence is one of those things that is more likely to happen when a particular home atmosphere is maintained: parents monitoring their childrens' activities, and making a constant habit of doing interesting and entertaining activities *together*. Kids like to be kids, when parents make childhood something enjoyable and desirable.

Third, the success of abstinence training cannot be measured by 'zero-defect' standards. Any study which merely points out that a particular abstinence-trained child had sex six months later is missing an important point: the risk of pregnancy or STD increases as the *number* of partners increases.
What is needed is a study that tracks the total number of sexual partners that children have (abstinence-trained versus control group). If abstinence programs reduce the number of partners a child has sex with, then it has had a significant impact, even though the child occasionally 'messes up' by diverging from that training.

That's how it worked with me, and with my wife of (so far) 19 years.

To Audi
Hey, friend. How are you and yours?
The personnel from our replacement unit are beginning to show up, and we should be out of here in less than 40 days.

I wanted to thank you again for the books.

-James

Lon
Well articulated. If presented as an assessment piece for an introductory journalism course this article would deserve to fail.

Stuart

Lon - causal ...
We have spent BILLIONS on condoms and safe sex programs. Teen pregnancy and STDs continue to go up.

Why continue these failed programs when they are obvious failures.

Those Who Want New Meat
"Who could argue with the idea that, when it comes to sex education, our teenagers should be taught to say “no”?"

Only those who want new meat to feed their own sexual obsessions.

Only those who want to ensure a steady supply of fresh bed partners as their peers become unattractively disease-ravaged and world-weary.

Only those too firmly wedded to their own, sex-centered, libertine, lifestyles to bear the suggestion that the behavior that they embrace has bad consequences.

animals
men are animals who can't control themselves - why should we believe teenagers aren't?

moses
Actually, teen pregnancy has been going down for a while now. That is pretty much the reason why we should continue those programs. Although obviously there are other factors involved here.

A quick google of the states gives the decline from 1990 to 2002 in the teen pregnancy rate as 36%. Note that the decline predates the Bush era when we have seen the big push in abstinence only programs. This is a decline during the period when abstinence plus programs were getting the biggest push.

This is actually part of a larger pattern. Conservatives often blame liberals for increases in various social ills, when those social ills after increasing throught the Reagan era actually declined after Democrats took the white house. Most of that decline has leveled off since Bush took over. I suspect most of this can be explained less in terms of direct programs like sex-ed than they can be the differences in policy with regard to people in poverty.

Lon
Good work today. Keep it up.

To leeann
"men are animals who can't control themselves - why should we believe teenagers aren't?"

Every time you walk down the street without being mugged or abused, you prove your own contention wrong.

I will say this: if we treat teenagers as uncontrollable animals, very many will behave that way.

Excellent Article
And, of course, will only be put down by those who don't believe that sex outside the marriage of one man and woman is sinful.

Parents remember: Do as I do, not as I say.

If we sold the Ten Commandments as a prescription for life instead of viagra and cialis, our country would be on the way to getting back to the roots it was founded on. Our current America would not be the least bit recognizable to our Founding Fathers. They may not have been perfect, but at least they didn't brag about their faults.

To Lon
Good point, though I haven't vetted the statistics. Since results of social change don't appear instantly, I'd be wary of leaping to conclusions, of course.

I don't find 'poverty' to be a very compelling answer about teen pregnancy rates. I've known too many dirt poor people who behaved with restraint, and too many wealthy ones who behaved wantonly.

But wait.
"Who could argue with the idea that, when it comes to sex education, our teenagers should be taught to say “no”?"

But wait, don't all sex education programs teach that abstinence for teens is the healthiest choice?

"Many critics of the abstinence-only programs."

Oh, I see, you'd have kids growing up not understanding what a condom is for.

In a real world where there actually existed a conservative somewhere, the blame would actually be ascribed to where it belongs: the parents.

Parents are ultimately responsible for the raising of their children. Not the church, not the education system.

Parents fail when their kids have sex.

When 60-80 percent of kids lose their virginity before the age of 18 then the blame lays square upon the shoulder of the parents. There is no way an public education system can meet the values of the various morals parents might want children to be taught. It's up to the parents to prepare their children for the real world. From suggestive images on TV to unwanted teachings at school.

The parents are failing. However, saying parents are failing is like saying "I'm failing" and we can't have that. No, we must blame Congress and the teachers. Anything but taking responsibility ourselves.

The problem with the conservative movement is not that its conservative. The problem with the conservative movement is that its liberal. Blame the Federal government and complete strangers rather than take responsibility yourself.

But then you all claim to be Christian too and clearly that's not the case. So no surprise I guess.

A child gets 1 or 2 hours of sex education during k-12 and spends a life-time at home and who gets the blame? Yeah, the 1-2 hours.

Ridiculous.

And on another point...
Any true conservative would raise the State's rights first before even thinking about Congress.

Education has always been a purview of the States, not the Federal government.

Each state should have the flexibility to decide for itself on these matters.

Why is this evening being discussed at the Federal level? Every here of amendments 9 & 10?

Yet just another example that today's conservative is no conservative, but instead is lobbying Congress to trample on state's rights.

Rob
My reason for thinking that who is in the white house is significant is that a lot of this social indicators track well with poverty rates. Presumably this is because people who feel hopeless behave differently than people who have hope. (I have in mind on top of teen pregnancy, abortion rates, violent crime rates and the like).

If one uses economic indicators which allow how the wealthy are doing to swamp how the poor are doing, then there is not so much variation between democratic and republican administrations. But if one focuses on economic indicators that are specific to the poor, it makes a big difference whether tax cuts occur at the bottom or the top of the spectrum.

But Tallil2long is right (if I am getting his or her point) that sexual promiscuity may not be as directly linked to such factors). My suspicion is that abortion is the most directly linked since the desire for an abortion is probably the one most linked to the belief that one is in a position to raise a child.

Rob
Rereading your comment I may have missed the point. Are you suggesting that republican and democratic administrations don't support policies that are more conservative or liberal respectively? It is certainly not just who is in office that matters, but the policies they pursue.

And, on your side note, you can't get pregnant from the things Clinton did in the white house.

This Should Be Easy
This is the kind of situation that drives me a little nuts, because there is a way to resolve the issue assuming people really want it resolved.

We should be able to outline the parameters of the research that would tell us what works and doesn't work and to what degree. Everybody agrees to the research protocol and to what results will mean and then we do the research.

A study sponsored by the Heritage Society won't carry any weight with Planned Parenthood. And study by planned parenthood won't carry any weight with teh Hertiage society. But why can't they both agree on the parameters of the next study?

Actually, I don't thinka nyone wants to know the answer.




To provocateur
"Oh, I see, you'd have kids growing up not understanding what a condom is for."

Unless they are also unable to read the instructions on the package, and have absolutely no contact with popular culture, and have not even a *single* friend who talks about sex, then that is probably not going to be a big factor.

You may be unaware of this, but people were using condoms LONG before it was being taught to ten year olds in public school.

"In a real world where there actually existed a conservative somewhere, the blame would actually be ascribed to where it belongs: the parents."

In a world where people actually READ, you'd realize that at least one conservative has already done so on this post.


Politics, Massachusetts style.
This is how liberal politics work:

A year or two ago, the Bostn Glob, or some other left wing rag, printed a "news" story claiming that "abstinence programs are just as effective as comprehensive sex education".

Now keep in mind that we get a few bucks of our tax dollars back to pay for abstinence programs, however we lose that money if we teach only "comprehensive sex education".

What does this mean to a lefty wing moron like Governor Cadillac Deval Patrick? Why, that means we need to cancel all our abstinence programs and replace them with "comprehensive sex education" ... because they are, according to the biased left wing Boston Glob, only "equally as effective". We lose millions of dollars, all only to get a program that is "just" equally as effective.

Oh, and did I mention that now we're, here in the CommonTheft of Taxachusetts, running a $1.5 billion budget shortfall? Not to worry, that's all the Mitt Romney's fault...who hasn't been governor for over 2 years. Cadillac Deval Patrick reinstates $500 million in spending vetoed by Romney, then adds another billion bucks in spending (including paying for his brand new Cadillac, $50,000 curtains, and a $70,000 a year manicurist for his wife), and then goes out and claims "it's all Romney's fault!"

Politics, Massachusetts style.

The debate here reminds me of a ....
quote I heard a long time ago. Paraphrased, it goes something like this:

"Once a cat is burned by jumping on a stove, will never jump on a hot stove again. Nor will he jump on a cool one."

The point? Experiences are great teachers but we must be careful to learn from an experience only what that experience teaches. We musnt' extrapolate concepts that may seem relavent but truly aren't.

All these statistics and percentagest thrown around about what concepts work best are never truly accurate. There are far more factors involved than can be accounted for. There is no magic bullet that will resolve this issue. Using statistics to validate your position is pointless.

To Atheist Provocateur
"Yet just another example that today's conservative is no conservative, but instead is lobbying Congress to trample on state's rights."

Well, certainly quite a few conservatives have at least partly bought into traditionally progressive notions. For instance, it wasn't conservatives who introduced the notion that the government ought to be teaching sex ed in the first place. However, now many accept the general principle and only differ on the issue of how that ed is to be presented.

But then, the definition of conservative is NOT based on defense of State's Rights, nor on any other single issue. There was a time when 'liberal' didn't strongly suggest support for abortion-of-convenience, either. Exact positions change. Conservative and Liberal are *relative* terms.

STD'S IN THE "YES"
THANK YOU PLANNED PARENTHOOD FOR EXPANDING THE STD CURSE ON THE EARTH. You have stooped to even greater levels of worthlessness worthy of a towel bowl flushing.

We won't pay
Maybe school kids would learn some responsibility and that actions have consequences if we had legislation that would place the financial burden on those who engage in irresponsible behavior and their parents.

Want an abortion as birth control because you had an "oops" moment? Then you, the father, the parents of both pay for it, out of your pocket. Can't use insurance because that drives up the cost of health care for all of us.

Want to have a baby that you expect taxpayers to care for financially for 18 years or more? We need legislation to make the illegitimate kid's parents and their parents financially responsible. No welfare, no food stamps, no entitlements. That would teach responsibility better than either type of sex ed.

Here is the big test.
Toss a condom to one of your buddies, then point out a hot woman who wants to sleep with him. Just before he leaves tap him on the shoulder and say, "oh by the way, that girl is HIV positive." Yes there are some men who would take the chance, but the number who would toss the rubber in your face and say "no thanks" would be significant.

On reason and reason:
Lon writes: Friday, May, 02, 2008 10:01 AM
"Rob
My reason for thinking that who is in the white house is significant is that a lot of this social indicators track well with poverty rates. Presumably this is because people who feel hopeless behave differently than people who have hope. (I have in mind on top of teen pregnancy, abortion rates, violent crime rates and the like)."

You "think," and "presume," but your thinking is not logical and your "reason" is not REASONING.

By far the deepest, most wide spread and profound effect on the morals of society are brought about by what society itself will or will not accept. The difference in moral attitudes of the majority of society since the cultural revolution of the sixties has not been brought about by changes in the presidency, but influenced primarily through the philosophies brought to society by way of writers and the entertainment media povocateurs, and the courts deciding what is or is not acceptable behavior for society as a whole.

I could go on to explain why your poverty premise is to egregiously flawed, but it would take much bandwidth, and anyway should be obvious to any thinking, reasoning person.

Tallil2long
Glad to hear you're coming home, my friend. Be safe.

And if any of the new guys want more books, let them know there's more where they came from. Life without books is flat, stale and unprofitable.

P.S. In the days before Griswold v. Connecticut, even Catholic girls in NYC knew what 'rubbers' were and even though they were illegal AND immoral, knew where to get them. Kind of like handguns and fireworks today.

Herpes
"

They want someone to say that condoms can't prevent herpes--herpes appears on legs and buttocks and is not protected by a condom.
"
It can appear on the lips.

There are two types of herpes viruses, and they can infect both the mouth and the genitals.

But if both types of viruses can be spread by kissing, then herpes is not exclusively transmitted by sexual intercourse.

Parents
Can say no. NO NO NO.

Schools aren't parents. They can only assume worst case scenarios (teens are having sex) and provide safe sex education.

Parents just refuse to talk about sex to their children, and when the school picks up the slack they get angry.

If public schools are SO bad then keep your kids at home or send them to a private institution.

I never understood why half the population of this planet even breeds when they clearly aren't equipped to handle it.




Government sponsored sexual abuse…

‘I hope you find that as outrageous as I do. Our teens deserve better than just a condom and a message to “be safe.” Our children are not animals, incapable of controlling themselves. They are not hopelessly immoral creatures who are going to “do it anyway.” Yet “comprehensive” sex ed teaches them that they’re just that. Parents, this is a slander against our youth. It’s a lie -- one that we must fight.’ - Rebecca Hagelin


In the dawinite world view our children ARE no more than animals incapable of self control. Darwinism has nothing to say about morality because it has thrown away the Bible which gives us a reference to the Infinite I AM.

Morality is defined with respect to the moral law given by the Creator of life. Western culture has its foundation in this truth. Denying this truth to the public schoolers amounts to child abuse. Exposing them to a sexuality void of morality amounts to sexual abuse. The government sees sexual abuse everywhere except in their own schools.

We must recognize that the great enemy of our culture is the vain philosophy of Darwinism. Mr. Stein has exposed its tyranny in academia. You are exposing its tyranny in the public schools.


"fear of the Lord...beginning of wisdom"
All sex outside of marriage is immoral.

It's a simple, concise message that all teenagers understand. Those who heed the message are better for heeding it. Those who don't heed the message generally realize they are destined to suffer negative consequences.

Teenagers aren't the problem; adults are. If parents and educators would obtain and explain some simple common sense and wisdom, our adolescents would "get it". Confused adults spawn confused kids.

On a personal note: I have never been tested for an STD and I have never had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. All because my wife and I both saved sex for our wedding night and we have been faithful to each other since that night.

Abstinence works and kids instinctively know it.

Independent thinker
So you create 60's social values with the drop in abortion rates through the '90's?

While I could follow your invective against me, I couldn't follow your argument against me. Certain negative social indicators rose in the '70s and peaked around '90 or 91 some a little later. These fell steadily through the '90's but levelled off or even dipped a bit in the '00s.

How does pointing to the evils of the '60s explain this pattern? Or does what you mean by reason involve ignoring the actual phenomena being addressed?

Are you claiming that "writers and the entertainment media povocateurs, and the courts deciding what is or is not acceptable behavior for society as a whole" improved during the '90s? Or are you explaining the explosion of murders and abortions that conservatives predicted would occur in the 90s but didn't? At least they had the excuse that they were wrong about things that hadn't happened yet.

What About Biology
People are still using the patented "Rose Colored Past Viewing Goggles" I see.

The difference between then and now is that the biology has changed. In a time period when marriage ocurred at 17 and the age of menarche was 15, women didn't have to deal with teh biology of sexual desire fo rvery long. And generally, they were in pretty tightly restricted circumsntaces. (Even so, unwanted pregnancy or illict love affairs have been core themes in all human literatures)

Now, menarche is much lower, often 12 but even 10, and the age of marriage is much higher, 24 or 25. It's one thign to ask women to wait a year or two between developing sexual desire and acting on it and another thing to ask them to wait 12 or 15 years. Especially in a sexually open culture.

The point here is that human biology plays a huge role in this. Chastity for the time period people seem to favor is decidedly unnatural.

Jack, Jack, Jack, Jackie, Jackie, Jackie
Jack, just because you had (or have) no self-control, does not mean we should avoid teaching and encouraging modern teens exercise self-discipline.

Self-discipline is the path to the self-esteem the left so reverently venerates.

Nice to Know you Like me
Is that like writing my name on your folder at school?

You should feel free to suggest self-discipline is the answer to all this, but it's a denial of reality. And solutions that are divorced from reality don't work.

Self-discipline, along with strict family controls and massive social disapproval of pre-marital sex, were the operating concepts for centuries. Even with all that and a "chastity period" of only a year or two, "illicit" sex was still a main topic of all literatures in the world for millenia. Stretch the chastity gap to a dozen years or so and add in the fact that we have an open society, and it becomes absurd to suggest people, grown men and women, should refrain from sexual activity until marriage.




The real reason.....
....teen pregnancy and STD's went up during the 70's and 80's was the direct result of the "free love" and the "women's liberation" movements of the 60's. The reason teen pregnancy and STD rates declined during the 90's and leveled off or slghtly rose during the 00's was and is the fear of being infected with the HIV virus.

It is parents responsibility to teach their children sexual morality. It is a proper function of schools to teach the biology of sex. (By the way; there is NOTHING pornographic about how sex ed is taught in schools. If there was I would have noticed, trust me.) If you are depending on anyone other than yourself to teach your children anything, you will be disappointed with the results.

Jack,
You've lost this argument over and over. Humans are not animals. Human do not have heat cycles and are not subject to uncontrollable, ungovernable, mating compulsions. Sex is, for humans, a completely voluntary act with no mandatory component at all.

Abstinence is and always has been possible -- for those who dare to rise above and claim their inheritance as reasoning beings rather than mere animals.

A Relevant Comparison
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDU4NDgzYTdjMzE5NTJmYT k5YWMyYTMwMTg2MmRiMGQ=

"You’ve heard the statistic that 1 in 4 teenaged girls has a sexually transmitted disease. On the same day that story came out, newspapers reported another study showing that 17 percent of middle-school students had used alcohol within the past year, and 6 percent had been drunk within the past month. A previous study had shown that 47 percent of eighth graders have had alcohol, 20 percent had done so in the last month, and 12 percent had consumed “five or more drinks in a row in the previous 2 weeks.” The researchers suggest that these figures can be reduced with “alcohol prevention programs prior to the sixth grade” and “truly universal anti-alcohol messages.”

Makes sense, right? But compare that with what happened when the STD study came out: Planned Parenthood said the results showed that abstinence education doesn’t work, and teen-agers should instead be taught “safe sex.” Using the same logic, instead of unrealistically expecting tweens to abstain from alcohol, shouldn’t we be teaching them “safe drinking”? You know — it’s O.K. to knock back a brewski while playing Grand Theft Auto after school, but be sure to stop at one; eat something before you start chugging punch at the Halloween party; take a hair of the dog with your Froot Loops if you’ve had too many the night before; stuff like that. Education of this sort would kill two birds with one stone, since unsafe drinking often leads to unsafe sex; at least, that’s how it works with grown-ups.

..."

MOT
I have only lost that argument in your mind, which is not particularly connected to reality in this context.

All I can offer as evidence is 99% of the history of the Human Race.

MOT
For someone so committed to morality, you certainly seem comfortable with lying.

Virtually no one advocates eliminating the idea of abstinence from educaitonal programming. The absolutists in this equation are the people who want abstinence "only" as opposed to what has become known as abstinence "plus"

It is pure dishonesty to portray anyone as favoring a safe sex 'only" approach.

In terms of alcohol use, teh same applies. Its delusional to tell kids they don't need to know anything about alcohol because they should abstain until they are 21.

Jack,
Perfect newspeak, Jack.

The truth is that "abstinence plus" is actually the indoctrination into the humans-are-only-animals, you're-going-to-do-it-anyway-so-here's-your-condom-have-fun-and-forget-about-all-the-negative-consequences-down-the-road hogwash.

Mother of 4
Your full of crap. No public school sex ed class presents sex in the manner you claim. I also have to take issue with your knowlege of biology. You claim "humans don't have heat cycles". This is wrong. Women have their cycle approximately every 28 days. Only we are too sophisticated to call it a "heat" cycle. We call it a menstral cycle instead. Most men are "in heat" most of the time. Are you for real?

quote
"because we love them and want's what's best for them."
Right...
Well who is "We" and which children did she mean?
Because in the bigger picture (as we were arguing over the racist origins and practices of Planned Parenthood earlier this week.), there ARE children who in fact are NOT loved, and plenty of adults DON'T know what's best for them
And what about when they AREN'T teens anymore?
Again, there are some of us who are not able to legally marry and some who never will.
And not for lack of trying.

I agree that young people should be educated about their worth and why abstinence is important, not just because of their immaturity in an adult situation, but how to sort the feelings out that are very REAL and intense to them.

And the usual people here who are very unrealistic about THAT part of the issue, is also part of why it's STILL a problem.

sermons, no more
I just wanted to see if a discussion on sex ed and preventive measures would attract sermons, and it did.
Look, one doesn't require a religious discipline to be moral and respectful of what sex is.
Because religious structures are VERY derelict on gender and sexual orientation.
Unless the support and commitment to respecting INDIVIDUALS (not just constricting the argument BASED on gender and orientation)is in an equally applied manner, we'll get nowhere all over again.
Youth and innocence IS exceptionally precious. And protecting oneself in an age of serious disconnection and disharmony when it comes to sex, love and learning about relating on a deep level are a lost art.
There's more than physical mechanic here. I already see the problem, but no one wants to believe me or address it.
So, the argument continues, and is still SO unbelievably unrealistic and imbalanced.

No, Humans Do Not
No, humans do not go into heat.

An animal in heat has no option about mating -- it is a compulsion, not a choice. An animal in heat will go through any obstacle to unselectivly mate with any available member of the opposite sex.

Comparing a woman's menstrual cycle, a cycle so subtle that it takes special equipment and training for a woman to identify her ovulation, with animal heat is ludicrous.

Such a ridiculous, patronizing, insulting idea could only come from the perverted fantasies of a man who dreams of mindless, panting women servicing him eternally.

Animals operate on instinct without the ability to reason. Humans can and do reason and that are capable of subordinating their hormones and putting their brains in charge.

9/11 and Darwinism
So then 9/11 was carried out by militant Darwinists?

Teen Marriage
If teenagers adopt abstinence-until-marriage en masse, then they will marry in their teens en masse. After all, who the hell is going to wait until they are twenty-seven years old to have sex? Who WANTS to wait that long?

Teen marriages fail more often than adult marriages. Go from there.

Mother of 4
There are rational reasons to have sex. Chief among them is measuring up to others. Who wants to be the only virgin in the crowd, especially is their are past thirty?

Mother of 4
Have you ever considered the negative consequences of NOT having sex? Imagine someone being a virgin at thirty, knowing that everyone around him, including his own family, has had sex. How would he feel about himself? What would be the only rational way to feel? How would others think of and feel about him, if they ever found out?

Mother of Four
"Humans are not animals. Human do not have heat cycles and are not subject to uncontrollable, ungovernable, mating compulsions. Sex is, for humans, a completely voluntary act with no mandatory component at all....Abstinence is and always has been possible -- for those who dare to rise above and claim their inheritance as reasoning beings rather than mere animals....Humans can and do reason and that are capable of subordinating their hormones and putting their brains in charge."

Well actually, yes, humans are animals, we're not plants or minerals. But I understand you to mean that animals are amoral, not humans. The highest moral is life and the furtherance of it, therefore animals are moral in the sense that they act in that moral manner, whether consciously or not.

But I do not understand why reason should be a tool to prevent one from engaging in a pleasurable, healthy exercise with a friend. It is irrational to not engage in pleasurable activity if one so desires.

Condoms and pills negate the negative consequence of getting pregnant without planning, and disease, so what is your problem with two people who like each other engaging in the most enjoyable act of oral sex?

What is immoral about enjoying oneself with another person?

To matthew
"Parents just refuse to talk about sex to their children, and when the school picks up the slack they get angry."

I frequently disagree with you, but on this you have a point. Those parents who do not *parent* get these things started as others decide that the government has to take up the slack. Then some of the defaulting parents take offense at the situation.
By and large, however, those who are offended by this sort of thing are also those who took their parenting responsibility seriously in the first place.
The fortunate thing is that *at least* wrong-headed teaching in school can be effectively countered by those parents who do take their responsibilities seriously.

To matthew
"Parents just refuse to talk about sex to their children, and when the school picks up the slack they get angry."

I frequently disagree with you, but on this you have something of a point. If so many parents hadn't done such a neglectful job, no strong push to have the schools start teaching sex ed would have arisen. Those parents who do not *parent* get these things started as others decide that the government has to take up the slack. Then some of the defaulting parents take offense at the situation.

I wouldn't be willing to regard your criticism as general applicable to those who complain about sex ed, however, since I suspect that those who *were* interested enough to take their parenting responsibility seriously are also generally the ones interested in what their kids are being taught in school.
Most of the parents who weren't interested in training their children *also* aren't interested in whatever they are being taught in school.




Double post -- oops
It didn't appear that the first one went through, but I think the second better expresses my intent.

It's also longer-winded. Sorry, I have a tendency towards being pedantic!

Mother of 4
"Humans aren't animals". Really? What are we then? Plants? Minerals? Just because you have a need to believe you are "special" because "god" made you does not change biological fact.

parents need classes too
Before I qualified to volunteer for AIDS Project Los Angeles, I had to take the equivalent of a college course on sex, prevention, all the diseases out there, the treatments for them and the statistical information on what populations were the most and the least at risk.

Schools should provide a short term (perhaps a three day course over the weekends) comprehensive class on sex, sexual orientation, disease prevention and other sex ed information for the PARENTS.

That's the trouble with one of the world's most important jobs (parenting) any knucklhead can get it, no matter how uneducated, unskilled or unmotivated to get it.
It shouldn't be about PARENTS deciding what qualifies as the proper courses for their children. A lot of parents are rock ignorant themselves.

it helps more to alleviate fear and...
only THEN can parents and their children be resistant to myths, misinformation and better equipped to dissiminate more complicated information.
Abstinence seems to be more of a fear based response rather than just telling young people there are parts of their brains and bodies that can't handle certain processes when it comes to decision making or intense emotional changes. That's a lot more honest than the DOOMSDAY technique so often employed against certain children.

Maybe I'm missing something
It seems that everyone either wants one side (birth control) or the other (abstenance) taught. What is wrong with teaching both? The more the kids know of the dangers, the more apt they are to be careful. What annoys me is a fourteen (or younger) girl getting pregnant, not what they are taught in sex education. Most of the sex education I see the kids getting is taught by their 'friends' who want to encourage them to engage in sex.

good article
this should not even be a federal or state issue. It's the parents responsibility to teach morality to their children...we are so stupid though that we have forgotten this and offered up solutions for those parents, and I know there are many, who neglect to spend enough time with their kids to pass down good moral values.

how do we go back? It's probably not possible now...we are destined to have this debate for years to come...uhhhggg.

Middle School
Im in middle school, and also in sexual education, and my teacher said we will talk "about abstinence and other birth control methods"

45 caliber,
don't exactly disagree with you on teaching about both.
But abstinance as it's taught now, doesn't cover ENOUGH on alternative relationships, emotional and physiological changes throughout one's growth period.
But all that is fine, while you're still legally a minor...after that, then what?

And those who support abstinence, don't seem to understand how unnattractive and unrealistic that option is for those who CAN'T marry legally, never will, who are gay or after a certain age, it gets boring or lonesome when all around you are in couples and sometimes rubbing your nose in it.
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