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Thursday, February 14, 2008
Rebecca Hagelin :: Townhall.com Columnist
Religion and Public Office: The 'Romney' Test
by Rebecca Hagelin
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Now that Mitt Romney is out of the presidential race, it’s the perfect time to discuss what we should have learned from all the chatter about his faith. The questions and answers relating to faith and holding public office are far more important than one candidate. 

If you ask almost any American where the Constitution provides for religious liberty, what are you likely to hear? The First Amendment. There, in words many of us know by heart, we read: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”

But there’s another important reference to religion in our Constitution. Considering the vitriolic manner in which our modern media culture treats faith in general, though, if you haven’t read the Constitution yourself, you probably don’t even know it’s there.

Article 6, Clause 3 states: “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” That phrase, and the troubled intersection of private faith and public office, is the subject of a fascinating new documentary titled “Article VI.”

Independent filmmakers Bryan Hall and Jack Donaldson explore the current debate over the issue and remind us that ignorance on the subject is nothing new. They show how during John F. Kennedy’s campaign for the presidency in 1960, Kennedy had to go to great lengths to assure non-Catholic Americans that he wouldn’t be a tool of the Vatican -- that the Catholic Church wouldn’t be dictating policy decisions if he were elected. Addressing the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, Kennedy said: “I am not the Catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party’s candidate, who happens to be a Catholic.”

Fast forward 48 years, and it seems remarkable that Kennedy’s faith was an issue. With Catholics serving alongside Protestants and the adherents of other faiths (and no faith) for years, the furor almost appears quaint. You would think the “faith” issue was settled once and for all. But as Hall and Donaldson reveal, when they interviewed people across the country from many walks of life, the way people reacted when Romney, a Mormon, was running for president sounded eerily familiar.

Like Kennedy, Romney had to tell voters repeatedly why his faith didn’t disqualify him for the Oval Office. Are we really still asking such questions in America?

Part of what makes “Article VI” such a compelling film is that Hall and Donaldson give us historical context. They remind us, for example, that there’s a shameful tradition of anti-Catholicism in the U.S. When Al Smith ran for president against Herbert Hoover in 1928, he was pilloried for his Catholic faith. It was denounced as anti-democratic, monarchical -- not in tune with American institutions. And there’s also an appalling tradition of prejudice against those of the Jewish faith who seek high office. Remember the horrible questions the press asked of Sen. Joseph Lieberman when he ran for president? Some things never change. For many in the media, it seems, Mormonism is the new anti-semitism.

Of course, every voter should feel free to NOT vote for a candidate based on any reason -- their politics, their ideology, their position on this issue or that ... even their faith. But if a potential candidate is loyal to America, to say that he is unfit to run for office or unfit to govern because of his faith is just plain wrong -- and the Constitution makes that perfectly clear. 

Al Smith lost, of course, and by 1960, such sentiments seemed to be changing. But the media just loves to beat people up over faith. The American public, however, does intuitively seem to understand (although we can often get confused by the headlines). As talk-show host Hugh Hewitt says in “Article VI,” 95 percent of the electorate just wants to know whether someone is a good person, not what his theology is. Otherwise, Hewitt notes, we wouldn’t have elected Abraham Lincoln, who “wasn’t remotely an orthodox Christian.” Lincoln read the King James Bible and spoke openly of God, but he belonged to no specific domination.

In “Article VI,” we hear from Jews, Hindus and Muslims who express their love for this country. We also hear from David French, a constitutional lawyer who advocates Christian rights. As a Christian, he says, he doesn’t believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God, “because the Allah of the Koran bears zero resemblance to the God of the Bible. But there’s a First Amendment in this country. People of all faiths are equal citizens of this republic.”

Whether it’s Mitt Romney speaking boldly of his Mormon faith, Mike Huckabee as an ordained Baptist minister, or Barack Obama taking the pulpit in churches across the country, the personal practice of deep faith by our would-be leaders must be passionately protected. As Kennedy told the Houston ministers: “Today, I may be the victim. But tomorrow, it may be you.”

By the way, The Heritage Foundation will send you a free pocket copy of the Constitution so that you’ll always be armed with the truth about your freedoms. Heritage will even pay the postage -- just visit heritage.org for your free copy.

 

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About The Author
Rebecca Hagelin is a public speaker on the family and culture and the author of the new best seller, 30 Ways in 30 Days to Save Your Family.
 
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The Constitution
I agree that voters should not have disqualified Romney in their own minds simply because he's Mormon. I'm an evangelical Christian and I also find it disgusting that so many would swallow Huckabee's leftist rhetoric and accept him as a conservative simply because he's a former Baptist minister who is staunchly pro-life. Although he was not my first or even second choice, Romney would have made a vastly superior president than Huckabee.

But the Constitution does not say that voters may not take religion into account when voting for a candidate; it says the US gov't cannot make a religious test. That's the same thought-police mentality that liberals love to use in support of "hate crimes" legislation.

If I say to my friend that "[Romney] is unfit to run for office or unfit to govern because of his faith," that may be distasteful, but it is not unconstitutional. Do you think the Framers intended for the gov't to track down everyone who makes such a statement and prosecute them? Of course not. That's one reason, along with the context of the rest of Article VI, that my interpretation is far more sound.

What makes me nervous...
Now that I've witnessed the grotesque performance in Utah (where 90% of the GOP vote went to Romney - 90%!), it makes me wonder if Frank Pastore was right when he worried that Mormons would use a Romney presidency to advance their religion. I'd have to think long and hard before considering voting for Romney after what the Utah results exposed. Even evangelicals who were duped into voting for Huckabee have only represented about 60-65% - barely a majority - of all evangelical voters.

I remember many Mormon posters here at TH claiming that there was NOT monolithic support for Romney among Mormons. 90%? That was just obscene. Ask yourself why they were so excited and so unanimous in supporting Romney. I won't fall for that line if Romney runs again.

Make no mistake: The LDS church was founded on the principle that all Christian denominations were apostate. It wants to convert Christians who do not understand the fundamental differences between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism. To the extent that a Romney presidency would energize them as a group, as his failed candidacy obviously did, it is legitimate for Christians to be alarmed and reluctant to vote for a Mormon for president.

Would you vote for a full-fledged, orthodox Sunni Muslim? As long as a candidate's religious beliefs do not directly contradict our country's foundational principles (and Romney's do not), they shouldn't be the only factor in a voter's mind. But Muslims actively seek to replace our system with Sharia law, both by open attacks and through covert subversion. The Koran commands them to lie to us "infidels" in order to deceive us and further the cause of Allah, so we can't even believe those (like Keith Ellison) who assure us that they will defend the Constitution.

Comparison categorically confused
Now, please pay attention and read this with some discernment --not with kneejerk emotion.

Mormons are good neighbors, upstanding citizens, and patriotic Americans --BUT...

The John Kennedy Catholicism comparison is by some, a red herring, and by others evidence of non_understanding. Conservatives who urged Romney to do a JFK-type speech to put Mormonism "behind him" missed the point (as did Romney himself).

The issue wasn't whether Romney the politician would "take orders" from Salt Lake City. Romney's problem was he tried to sell Mormonism to evangelicals as simply another variation of Christianity. This, of course, isn't Romney alone. The LDS Church in its public relations is also trying to do this.

Leaving aside what specifically the content of Gov. Romney's personal faith may, or may not be, the theology of MormonISM (as explicated by Joseph Smith and other Mormon prophets --whatever the sentiments of people in the pew may be) is NOT the orthodox Christianity of the ecumenical creeds. It is therefore another religion as surely as Islam, Buddism, or the Unification Church.

The second problem is related to the first. But, its not really a political problem --per se. It just spilled over into politics this cycle.

Analyst Stuart Rothenberg captures it well:

"Why Mitt Romney Can't 'Solve' His Mormon Problem"
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/12/why_mitt_ romney_cant_solve_his.html

Given how "flexible" Romney's belief
system seems to have been... I see no reason to suppose he has any REAL Mormon convictions. He demonstrated no conviction otherwise.... The man was as phony as John "Catholic pro-abortion" Kerry....

How sanctimonious
can Hagelin get? After all not long ago Dennis Prager demended that Keith Ellison shouldn't be allowed to swear on oath on Quran (even though he's muslim) but use Bible instead and got hagelin's support. Bit selective, don't you think?




lestat
I see you noticed the 90% support for Romney by mormons in UTAH...

Have you forgotten that UTAH gave more votes to Bush Senior AND PEROT than Bill Clinton (who won the overall election)...

Please think about that,,,, Clinton took 3rd in the state of UTAH! Utah is the most conservative state in the nation.

How did that happen? Mormons just happen to be the most conservative voting bloc the GOP has (notwithstanding Harry Reid).

A conservative christian (non-mormon) will have an easier time winning UTAH with the MORMON vote than this christian would in YOUR state.

Understanding how conservative mormons are,,,,, you may just want to become one.

The Issue
with Romney's faith was entirely a Republican / Conservative debate. It never got to the general public. And judging by some of the posts here religion is very important to Conservative Republicans. Especially the correct religion.

Scooter- find a Mormon Huckabee voter
Keep in mind that Utah has around a 62% LDS population. So 90% of the votes would indicate

In Utah 88% of Republican voters were LDS, with 94% voting for Romney. Huckabee only had 2% of the votes in Utah. (must have been apostates or non members)

In Nevada, with only 7% LDS of the total population, they made up 25% of the Republican voters, and 95% of those voted for Romney.
(Which amounted to 50% of Romney's votes).

In Arizona, 11% of the Republican voters were LDS but only 88% of them voted for the Mormon candidate.

It is no secret that Mormons vote Republican so obviously they voted for Bush. Was Bush running against a Mormon that election?

The point is that a Mormon with a liberal record and constant pandering runs against other more authentic conservative candidates and an entire state voted for him anyway. I have yet to find one Republican LDS who voted for Huckabee.

Romney doesn't even have to campaign in Mormon communities. He knows those votes are a sure thing. It's LDS prophecy (some argue myth) that a Mormon President would save the constitution..



preference
I would rather have a Mormon president who governs with conservative values than a Christian who governs with liberal values. To me, it's all in the fruit. You can call yourself anything you'd like, but what fruit does it produce in your life? How does it influence the decisions you make? I'm alarmed at how blindly some Christians voted for Huckabee. To those who just look at his Baptist minister credentials before they vote, remember two words--Jimmy Carter!

Mitt's problem was not Mormon
We learnd Mormon's (LDS) have weird dogma, theology, ceremonies & history. LDS founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830, is HQ'ed in Salt Lake & reports approx 12 mill members(?). Other wise it secretive.

religion, ranked by order of size:

1 Christianity 1.9 billion
2 Islam 1.4 b (many forced in my opinion)
@ Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 b
3 Hinduism 781 million
4 Buddhism 324 m
5 Sikhism 25 m
6 Judaism 14 m
@ LDS - Mormon 12 m (?)
7 Bahá'í Faith 6.1 m
8 Confucianism 5.3 m
9 Jainism 4.9 m

I'll be honest, ranking the Religion of my President it would be:

-Christian
-Judaism
-Secular
-Mormon

Would an Atheist or Muslim get the vote for Pres? Probably not. Honestly, I would not vote for a Muslim for Pres.

It should NOT matter; people are free to believe in anything or not, in America. As a Christian, I'd prefer a Christian as Pres.

We are free to vote on any basis. Religion, sex, race should not matter, but it does to individuals.

Mitt Romney had other problems other than religion: BIG FAT helmet hair head, empty suit, liar (eggagerate?), flip flop king x 1000 than Gore and did not seem genuine.

Mitt blew his "Kennedy speech", addressing religion. He said Jesus is Lord, Saviour, son of God..... but thats not what the LDS believes. He also left out non-religious people in his speech.

GOP is Perverting Religion

The GOP uses the Evangelicals to get votes, but really has contempt & loathing for them. That's why Huckabee is shunned by the GOP. The GOP elite is as secular as the Dems. The GOP fears a theocracy. Face it, religion and politics don't mix.

GOP/conservatives want "strict
constructionist" supreme court judges?

That's code for anti Roe v. Wade, Christian Judges ruling on theology not man's law. That is wrong. Separation of Church and STATE is key to the survival of Democracy. Keep religion at home and Church.

momof5girls....which values?
Huckabee has been the consistent conservative with a record to prove it.
Romney governed with liberal values, not Huckabee. His phony conservative makeover didn't fool those who did their homework. Most troubling was his record on abortion and endorsement commercial for Rocky Anderson in Salt Lake City. (one of the most extreme liberals in the country) I find it hard to believe that after 5 children he didn't realize the human rights violation in abortion until he decided to run for President. It is in opposition to the LDS faith to ever support, assist, or have an abortion.

Don't even get me started on all the half truths and fibs Romney told about our church doctrine. The media is so ignorant about our religion that many of his fibs slid by unnoticed.

It's the Mormons who used religion this election. EVs voted more for other candidates than they did for Huckabee. The polls reveal who "blindly" voted and exposes the soft theocracy that still exists in Utah. Devout Mormons are married to the church & that is one of the many reasons Americans are very uneasy about electing a Mormon President.

I used to think that prejudice against
Catholics was silly. Then they came for me. Let's see.
The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce.
It does, however, recognize annullment.
So the Catholic Church can declare that a 30-year marriage with children, between non-Catholics is invalid.
However, the children are not bastards.
The father did not committ adultery. Nor did his Catholic paramour. So she doesn't go to hell for the mortal sin of adultery.
Don't believe this? Ask Sheila Rauch Kennedy, who married Joe Kennedy in what she believed was a legal, binding and valid marriage.
Quaint prejudice?
Thanks. I'll take the Mormon.

Utah turns a blind eye to polygamy
http://www.polygamy.org/


PRESS RELEASE
June 7, 2006
TAPESTRY AGAINST POLYGAMY DENOUNCES SENATOR HATCH & LDS CHURCH TYING MARRIAGE AMENDMENT KNOT: UTAH MARRIAGE HYPOCRISY STRIKES OUT AGAIN

LDS Apostle Russell M. Nelson, serial polygamist (married “second” wife in the LDS temple on 4-6-06 after his first wife died, each marriage purportedly for “time and all eternity”), represented the LDS Church in Washington D.C. This Monday encouraging Congress to support a marriage amendment in the constitution that would ban gay marriage and define marriage as between “a man and a woman.” While in jest at a St. Patrick’s Day breakfast in March 2005 (SL Tribune 3-21-05) Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney said, “I have to admit that as a Mormon I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, …and a woman and a woman.”

It is shamefully hypocritical for LDS leaders to publicly advocate against gay marriages and not polygamy. Formerly the LDS Church actively advocated against the Equal Rights Amendment, which seems to indicate that male patriarchy is godlier than democracy, equality and justice especially when it comes to women and children—and human relationships based on equality.






Tapestry press release continued......
“We have concerns that while the LDS Church and Mormon political leaders are publicly advocating against gay marriages they are endorsing polygamy through their scriptures, Doctrine & Covenants 132. Utah LDS state leaders are in-the-closet polygamists who through their sanctioning of polygamy for decades give a good ole’ wink-wink to its crime. They believe polygamy will someday be lived and they spend time and resources fighting against women and gay rights instead of ending human rights violations, such as polygamy. No longer is polygamy a Utah problem; it has spread throughout the nation and has become a social epidemic,” says Vicky Prunty, Executive Director Tapestry Against Polygamy.

Senator Orrin Hatch, the marriage amendment co-sponsor, recently helped to secure $700,000 in funding through the US Department of Justice which was touted to be used for women and children leaving polygamy but in fact is presently supporting those within the illegal practice if polygamy. (http://www.polygamy.org/

Christians - non bigots - for Romney!
The writer is on when she says faith, according to the constitution, should never be an issue in political campaigns. However, even the GOP candidate Huckabee exploited the very issue by the constant remarks he was making against Romney's faith - shame on him! Bigotry is very much alive, especially in the South - this is evident by the states he won like Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and then Louisiana. Romney not once attacked or probed inquiries into Huckabees's faith nor went into any of his church meeting houses to collect votes (or money) like Huckabee did in Woodstock, GA where he visited the biggest Baptist church in the area housing 7,000 seats per service. The race in GA was so close and so was Missouri's and Arizona's because many conservative Christians were on Romney's side, not Huckabee's because of his masked bigotry and people could see right through it. If you were a true Mormon you could never support bigotry. Mormons did support Romney in Utah and Nevada but they also supported George Bush, even when Orrin Hatch wanted to run for president. And the state of Utah has given George Bush the biggest support out of any other state, so the coments by Mormons for Huckabee are complety false!!!

Mormons 4 Huckabee has issues
most likely with Priesthood authority (perhaps she wants to have it too and they said no). Charging a person with poligamist acts because he marries for the second time in the temple shows lack of doctrinal knowledge. Obviously she also can't recognize a joke by Romney when he mentions ... and a woman, and a woman. One can laugh at his own faith can't we? Poligamy was abolished by the "true and original" LDS faith so quoting scriptures from the past before the policy came into place is not just missleading but a poor attempt at pointing out the facts about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Romney did not take the Mormon vote for granted, if he had he wouldn't have campaigned in Nevada or Arizona.

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ!
Jetpilot, et al are wrong on this count for sure. Mormons do have a unique theology but to say they don't believe in Jesus Christ is pure fantasy.

This author was dead on about a religious litmus test. It is absolutely unAmerican! Look at the man, look at his record, look at the life he has lived. America lost big time when Mitt Romney bowed out of this race. Now we have to choose from three democrats. May God bless America through the next few years of chaos!

Mormon Scientologist for Jehovah
Who is to say what faith is most 'legitimate.' Does celebrity status give credibility to Scientology? Does a former President affirm the Catholic Church? How can we know or understand any given faith as being legitimate - that is to say, not wacko....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/16/mormon-scientologists -for-jehovah-on-the-7th-day/

Faith, by itself is not freedom.
Certainly freedoms are valuable, freedom of belief,freedom of political stance, freedom of speech etc. However where this breaks down is when those freedoms are not fully defended. At the recent UN debate on Human Rights in Geneva there seems to have some skullduggery whereby the agenda was packed by the Organisation of Islamic Conference intent on forcing through an adjustment to the "Universal" Declaration of Human Rights based on the Sharia Cairo declaration,which stated that there should be an 'International combating of the defamation of religion'-effectively meaning that it would be not be a human right to criticise any Religion (Including Paganism?) or its tenets in any way. The contribution from the USA is reported as being half hearted,feckless and having given up any serious attempt to respond or argue the case for freedom of speech or to resist the claims of victimisation and Islamophobia by those whose stance seemed to embrace Democrophobia. If American delegates are too lazy or too inept to defend your freedoms, even at the UN then perhaps the American Establishment has parted company with the will of the people and you do need a new broom and very quickly.

I'm free under the constitution
The Constitution does not prohibit me from voting from someone because of their faith. It Prohibits government from establishing a test, like an oath they must say before taking office. An oath that would show they hold to certian beliefs, that is prohibited.
It does not prohibit me from not voting for Romney becuase he is is a lieing, liberal Mormon.
I've seen how Mormons act this election. They play the victim and say everyone else is a bigot for not voting for Romney. Mormons are not so fair, they stick together, try living in Utah if you are not a mormon. Good luck, you will not move up, if you can even keep your job. Mormons are therefore hypocrites and have no business as President. Except for maybe Romney who said his faith was un-important to him and he proved it by lieing so much.

The correct religion?!
Any religion that self-portrays bigotry is not a correct religion. Remember, "Thou Shall Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself"? or "Judge Ye Not"? Romney saying he believes in Jesus as the son of God would obviously bothered Baptists because they believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all the same. "Correct religion" you say? One must need not search too far into the Baptist religion to see how erroneous its doctrine ise. How could Jesus be the same as God and the Holy Ghost if when Christ was baptized all three were present (God speaking from heaven proclaiming Jesus as His son and the Holy Ghost descending from on high as a dove). Let's check out the facts first before we claim Romney's religion is trying to control the world by electing a mormon for president of the USA... it is the mormon missionaries, that out of their own pockets pay to go out into the world sharing the gospel with people and converting thousands every year. (sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ and teaching He is the son of God and the savior of mankind. It is thanks to the work of these humble young men and women that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of the fastest growing faiths in the US and around the world, not thanks to Romney or any other mormon politician. Envious, anyone?!

Quit your whining!
It's simplistic to say that Smith was a victim of bigotry. His opposition to Prohibition was also a major factor in his defeat (Southern Democrats generally supported Prohibition). We must also remember that Smith's opponent was a Quaker (as was Kennedy's opponent in 1960), so the argument about "religious bigotry" cuts both ways.

I wasn't crazy about Mitt Romney, but it wasn't because of his religion. He came across as wishy-washy on a number of issues, such as abortion and gay marriage. The fact that he once supported these things doesn't speak well of his religious devotion.

Republicans need to quit playing the "victim card." A short time ago, a couple of posters on TH whined that Rudy Giuliani was the victim of "anti-Italian bigotry." Now Mitt Romney's supporters are claiming that he was the victim of "anti-Mormon bigotry." I expect this kind of talk from liberals, but it is very beneath conservatives.

What about Obama
Since we're dissecting Romney's religion, how about we take a minute and discuss Obama's. After all, Romney's out and Obama looks to be the likely nominee.

Is Obama's church mainstream? Here's the home page for the web site: http://www.tucc.org/home.htm. Go see what you think.

Let;s Lay This One To Rest!!!
Mike Huckabee is a Christian, but he is not a conservative, he is a socialists. What he does speaks so loudly I can't hear what he is saying.

He advocated and approved the raising of taxes instead of cutting back the size of government in Arkansas. He advocated giving illegal alien offspring special credits so they could attend college using taxpayer funds. He practically threw open the borders of the state of Arkansas to appease the Tyson Foods people so they could have cheap labor from south of the border. And then he condemned the federal agents when they took action to arrest these illegal aliens and deport them.

He pardoned over 1000 criminals, at least one of whom killed after he got out. He did this over the objections of the state parole board. This was more pardons than the three previous governors of Arkansas combined. (One of those three was none other than Bill Clinton.)

And when members of his own party wanted him to uphold the law he called them "unchristian." So it appears to be all about Mike and not about the party, or the state or the country.

Don't ever call Mike a conservative again. He isn't. He is a socialists. A christian, yes, a conservative, not even close.

Here is the litmus test. A liberal sees government as the answer. A conservative sees government as the problem. And that puts Mike Huckabee smack dab in the liberal camp.

Politicians are known for voting liberal in Washington and talking conservative back home. Mike voted liberal in his home state and is talking conservative to the rest of the country.

Look at his actions, don't listen to his rhetoric.

If Romney were a Democrat
If Romney were a Democrat and not a Republican, his faith would have been a non-starter.

The fact that Lieberman is Jewish was a non-starter to Democrats as well, except to Rebecca. Questions about his Jewish faith were nothing compared to the ring-wing's assault on Romney's faith.

Lieberman never once considered giving some speech about being beholden to Israel and even today Democrats don't connect the dots with his pro-war stance with his faith.

Ralph Reed and the social (aka religious) conservatives built the existing grass-roots structure in the Republican party. Not the Libertarians and not the free-market conservatives. And therein lies the problem.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Ron Paul has a small libertarian grass roots movement. The Republican party's disdain for "kooky" Ron Paul is even more vitriolic than the detestment of Mormonism.

The social (religious) conservatives are at a crossroads in politics. They may represent the biggest and largest grass roots element of the Republican party, but in no way are they a majority.

What are they going to do about it? That's the real religious test going on right now. Are the grass roots social (religious) conservatives able to support libertarian and free market conservatives?

bigotry won
bottom line is we lost the best person in the race because of bigotry.say all the mumbo-jumbo religious swag(keep it in church)romney could have DONE something for all american(even the bigots)i hear no-body talking about hussein obama getting 90% of the black vote.

romney never "trolled" for votes like "holy"mike.

we should all be ashamed and we will pay the price for the next 4-8 years,maybe longer.romney has more class and brains than all 4 democrats left in the race.lets hope he gives us bigots another chance

Mormonism
I have been so surprised at the "Christian" bigotry going on in this country. I would much rather vote for and have a Mormon in office, than a baptist Jimmy Carter, a religeous Bill and Hillary Clinton who say they are believers and go to church, or a evangelical Barack Obama, and I could go on. Saying you are Christian doesn't always mean anything. Every Mormon I know has very good Christian moral values, much more so than a multitude of Christians. Why are we Christians so critical of another, when we have no room to speak. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Romney was not for gay marriage. He testified FOR the marriage amendment before congress long before he started to run for president. He had a family member die of a boched illegal abortion a long time ago in a tragic death. That was WHY he was not so much for pro-life in the start, but he did realize his error. He changed his viewpoints and was then against abortion. He layed out the issues of what he was for and against when he started to run for president and has not changed on any issue.
However..., Huckabee and McCain did change their beliefs on issues just in January when they saw it wasn't popular with voters, which is called pandering to get a vote. I don't trust either. Just because Huckabee is a baptist shouldn't give him a free ride. I see many christians voting for him only becuase he is so. Having no idea if he is the next Jimmy Carter or what. So they are doing exactly what many claim Mormons are doing. This becomes a little hypocritical here.
I believe Romney would make a great president, much better than George Bush. If he runs again I will vote for him. As far as some Mormon conspiracy theories, I believe them just about as much as I believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

90% Utahans for Romney
Lestat, and others...

So, are you seriously trying to get up on your high horse complaining about Utah Mormons voting for Romney? Are you really saying that you think they should have voted for Huckabee or McCain over him?

Romney is more conservative, better qualified, and is very well-known in Utah for what he did at the 2002 Olympics. He was obviously the best candidate.

Now, if it was a race just between Huckabee and Harry Reid, Huckabee would have received 90% of the vote; although Huckabee is not that conservative, he would beat the Mormon Harry Reid by a mile.

And as for the rest of all your religious comments about the LDS church - most of you honestly do not know enough about it, or have an incorrect view of LDS doctrine. You are misrepresenting us.

Excellent post, BMR
And well stated. Huckabee stayed in the race out of nothing but pure religious bigotry to keep Romney from having a chance based solely on his religion. He's even admitted to it in som interviews I've heard. For that reason alone I could never vote for him.

But then I'm also a Mormon, so I'm more than a little offended by, and biased against Huckabee, for his bigotry.

Get over it, people!
Is there any candidate in this election who can't claim "victimhood"? Think about it:

- Mitt Romney was the victim of "anti-Mormon bigotry."

- Mike Huckabee is the victime of "anti-evangelical bigotry."

- Rudy Giuliani was the victim of "anti-Italian bigotry."

- Fred Thompson was the victim of "anti-Hollywood bigotry" (or maybe voters just don't like tall people?).

- Ron Paul is the victim of "anti-lunatic bigotry."

- If McCain had lost, he'd have been the victim of "age discrimination" or "anti-Scottish" bigotry.

In my opinion, all this "victim" talk is only so much sour grapes. As I said in a previous post, I expect this kind of whining from Democrats, but it's very beneath Republicans.

Bottom line is
everyone has the right to support the candidate of their choice for whatever reason they decide. It doesn't make them wrong nor does it make you right. For fellow conservatives or Republicans to launch personal attacks against each other simply because they disagree is wrong. It is after all a free country.

That being said, my problem with Romney was not that he was a Mormon it was more because his past record was in conflict with his Mormon faith. Now you can spin it all you want, but facts are facts and research would prove what many of us feel were legitimate disqualifiers, (ie: gay marriage, abortion, tax-payer subsidized health care, etc).

To respond to bmr's comment about McCain & Huckabee pandering, I would hope you are not naive enough to think that Romney was innocent of this practice. Think 20 billion bailout for the auto industry, while campaining in Michigan; or maybe a national catastrophic insurance program, while campaining in Florida. This was not only pandering at it's finest, but it is not conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, facts are stubborn things, but they are hard to recognize when you refuse to open your eyes. And, if changing your mind on an issue is pandering, simply because of the timing, then I guess it is fair to describe Romney's apparent epiphany from several years ago as "Pre-Pandering".

Excellent post, BMR
And well stated. Huckabee stayed in the race out of nothing but pure religious bigotry to keep Romney from having a chance based solely on his religion. He's even admitted to it in som interviews I've heard. For that reason alone I could never vote for him.

But then I'm also a Mormon, so I'm more than a little offended by, and biased against Huckabee, for his bigotry.

the problem is Mormon fraud
I could accept a Mormon president if the LDS church went back to being honest and saying that they didn't accept the label of Christian. The older LDS refrained from calling themselves Christian because they aren't.

It is the continuing claim that Mormons are 'just like us' that drives me bonkers. The LDS believes in very little of the substance of Christianity, even if they use all the words. (God was not always a god, for example.)

Mormons are not Christian for the same reason that I am not Mormon; we believe different things. If the LDS is willing to try to cover up those differences, then I can't very well accept anything else that they say as truth either.

So I can accept a Catholic, a Jew, a Buddhist, or even an atheist, but I can't accept someone who starts the relationship by lying to me.

Mormons Are The Modern Day Recipients
of intolerance and bigotry the same as Jews and blacks have suffered in history. This bigotry and persecution is unwarranted and even evil in nature and time will only tell the truth of this claim. Haters of good and decent people who only seek to help and serve mankind will suffer for their irrational and fanatical views.

Church doctrine and beliefs have been constantly besmirched through out Romney’s campaign. The truth is that there is no “prophecy” in LDS canonized scripture that states as one blogger above claims (disingenuously) that “a Mormon President would save the constitution". Below is the statement that anti-Mormon attackers twist to make their disingenuous statements:

"Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall tear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

From where does this spirit of hate toward a good and decent people come? Even today with the commonality of spirited hate extended towards Mormons you will rarely (maybe never) hear a Mormon speak unkindly of other faiths or their people. I have offered this test a number of times. Go to your local “Christian” bookstore and ask for the section dealing with Mormonism and note the shelves full of hate and vitriol directed at a good and decent faith and people. Then go to your local “Mormon” bookstore and ask for books on other faiths. I can assure you that you will never find any LDS writings that speak ill of or defame any other people or religions.

“From their fruits you shall know them”.

Don
"Bottom line is everyone has the right to support the candidate of their choice for whatever reason they decide."

Bingo! McCain was not my first choice - or my second or third. Many Republican voters obviously disagree with me, but such is life. Thus I say to all other Republicans: GET OVER IT!

A Mormon President
A Mormon President is not anywhere near in this country's future. Number one because their isn't a Democrat who is a Mormon that is could do the job (there aren't many Mormons who are Democrat). The with the evangelical vote in the Republican party a Mormon is not going to win the GOP nomination.

I believe that you can vote or not vote for someone based on their religion. That's your option. With most evangelicals being taught regularly in their churches that Mormons are going to hell and that they are a cult it would be nearly impossible for a Mormon to garner enough support from evangelicals to win the nomination.

As far as Mormons voting for Romeny just because he was a Mormon (in many cases I'm sure this is true) he won because they viewed him as their best choice. They also viewed Huckabee as anti-Mormon. You may argue that he's not but in their mind he is. If he is on the ticket as VP McCain will have a hard time carrying Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Colorado and maybe Wyoming. Without Huckabee Utah will vote 60 - 70% for McCain.

Gov. Huckabee supporters can take their ball and go home (stay home and not vote for Sen. McCain)
but they'll just end up with Sen. Obama or Sen. Clinton as President.

By the way Sen. Smith (Oregon) endorsed McCain, Gov. Huntsman (Utah) endorsed McCain and Sen. Crapo (Idaho) didn't endorse anyone. These are Mormon politicans who did not endorse Romney.

Then you don't know anything
About the LDS Church, Cruise Missle.
WE ARE Christians, and our Doctrine is based on the BIBLE.
But like ALL Christian Churches our beliefs and Doctrine are a bit different than those of the church, if any, that you belong to.

But you're free to believe what you want and worship as you wish, just as we are.
So deal with it, just like we deal with your bigotry against us, even though we don't return the disrespect to you.

Marines' Dad
"WE ARE Christians, and our Doctrine is based on the BIBLE."

If your doctrine is based on the Bible, why do you need the Book of Mormon?

Why Utah voted overwhelmigly for Romney.
For some, I'm sure it was because of his religion. In the same sense that many evangelicals vote for Huckabee b/c of his religion. But strip away the religion, and LDS members still would have voted for Romney.

Family is the most important element of the LDS faith. The Alpha and Omega, if you will, of mortal existence. A candidate's historical behavior with respect to the family is a PROFOUND factor for an LDS voter. Now let's look at the candidates.

Giuliani cheated openly on his wife. Instantly eliminated himself from garnering the Mormon vote.

Thompson divorced the woman who he got pregnant as a teenager, who also put him through school, and then married a woman that looks like his daughter.

McCain divorced the mother of his children, who faithfully waited years for him while he was in a prison camp in 'Nam, after she had been in a disfiguring car accident, and, in a slap-in-the-face sort of way (a characteristic he's notorious for), married a 25-year old model.

Huckabee disqualified himself from the Mormon vote with the "Aren't Satan and Jesus brothers?" coy comment.

So even if Romney, a man faithful to his high school sweetheart, even though he is good looking, rich, and surely could have a 25 year model if he wanted, was not Mormon, he most assuredly would have still garnered the overhwelming support among Mormons that he did.

Mormon Vote in 2000 Primary
Mormons4Huck notes

"In Arizona, 11% of the Republican voters were LDS but only 88% of them voted for the Mormon candidate.

It is no secret that Mormons vote Republican so obviously they voted for Bush. Was Bush running against a Mormon that election?"

The answer to this easy to answer question is "Yes".

http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/2000presprim.htm

In Arizona the vote was McCain at 60.03%, Bush at 35.68% and Hatch all the way down at 0.20% with just 637 people voting for him. (Mormon population in 1990 = 199,761)

Hatch got just 9,202 votes in California (Mormon population in 1990 = 533,741)

Hatch got 504 votes in Colorado (Mormon population in 1990 = 70,313)

Hatch had dropped it by the time the Utah primary occured just three weeks later. Think that one possible reason was that his did not want to lose his home state?

So did Romney do well in "Mormon" states because he is LDS? Maybe. Is that the only reason. Obviously not.

Romney has history in Utah with the Olympics so the State already knew him. McCain, et al ceded NV and WY to Romney and McCain barely eaked out a win over Romney in AZ but the results in AZ are typical for McCain in the other states he won, especiually conservative states. He did so "barely"

Sorry, no Mormons
Dress it up as you will, Mormonism is a cultish belief that takes the Bible as fourth place in the hierarchy of Scripture and places the words of living "prophets" above the revelation of Christianity. Their polytheistic beliefs disqualify them from being Christian. Their allegiance to Salt Lake and its desire to rule the nation disqualify them from the presidency. Having lived in Mormon-run communities, know first-hand the dangers of underestimating the impact. This is the same reasoning I would apply to any Muslim: if you believe the Koran and espouse sharia, then you can't run my country. You have the right to practice your religion, not dictate mine.

Unfortunate religious conflict…
Too bad we have religious conflict/rivalry. It almost reminds me of two rival football teams with some of the nastiness that occurs among loyal fans outside of the stadium. Who cares what one religion vs. another believes as long as neither are fanatical and support terrorism?

I am largely non-religious though I grew up Catholic in Southern California. In my forties now I can honestly say that I have been to church maybe 15 times other than weddings/funerals over the last 30 years. Perhaps this disqualifies me from a conversation about religion but I think I see it more objectively than most.

I support Huckabee. I would support him if he were Mormon. I would consider supporting him if he were Muslim though I have to admit I would be a bit more guarded with events around Islamic facism…

The reasons I support Huckabee are as follows:
1. FairTax – this is a bold common-sense move in exactly the right direction. Untaxes productivity, research and development, marketing, corp. profits, investment profits, etc. in exchange for taxing at consumption which makes the U.S. more competitive globally. Makes government funding transparent vs. convoluted tax system that we all know benefits special interests (not the poor as many want us to believe), etc.
2. Strong National Security – maintain stability in the middle east and in other hotspots.
3. Secure the Borders – he will build the fence and he has signed the NumbersUSA “No Amnesty” Pledge.
4. Great communicator
5. Washington/Wall Street elite (NWO) fear Huckabee since Huckabee would have the audacity represent “We the People” vs. their power broker special interests.

It would be nice if we all take our religious bias blinders off in order to recognize that Huckabee is “our” (i.e. We the People’s” only real chance for taking our county back.

Peace,

YK

Ken, re: your 11:15 AM Post
Ken writes: Thursday, February, 14, 2008 11:15 AM
Marines' Dad
"WE ARE Christians, and our Doctrine is based on the BIBLE."

If your doctrine is based on the Bible, why do you need the Book of Mormon?


Have you ever read the cover or the cover page of the Book of Mormon?

It says, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and that's what it is.
A Supplement to the Biblle.

It's a record of the ancient Christian Church in Central and South America, Christs' visits to the people and his dealings with them.

sparky
Actually, as noted by some above, Harry Reid is a mormon, and he is the top democrat in the Senate. I believe there are two other mormons who are democrats who have a good shot at the senate in November. Both are members of the Udahl family. I believe one is running in Colorado, and one is being encouraged to run in New Mexico.

I do think you are right that a democratic mormon would have a better chance at the presidency since he wouldn't need as much of the evangelical vote.

cruisemissle and others
Mormons always called themselves Christians. Where do you get the opposite view? The Book of Mormon has more references to Jesus than even the New Testament. If you read it you will know that it is actually very close doctrinally with the bible. Other Mormon scriptures may not be as close, but then again, the New Testament is not exactly 100% the same as the Old Testament doctrinally either.

We believe in prophets just as the ancient Jews did. Were they wrong to follow Moses and Joshua?

So many misrepresentations
I find it incredible that people are so sanguine with misrepresenting the doctrines and beliefs of others. Let's clear some things up:

Ken -- Why the Book of Mormon? Why more than one apostle? Whether in a court of law or just a discussion among peers, the voice of multiple witnesses has more impact. The Book of Mormon references Christ and/or His doctrine every 1.7 verses on average. Just read the title page to learn its purpose.

unclevirgil -- Where to begin? If the Bible comes in fourth place, they must not be teaching that in my ward.

God is unchanging, but decided that he no longer speaks to man through prophets? That would be because things are so much better than they were in biblical times, right?

Polytheism? You mean like a belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost as three distinct personages, rather than some strange, fourth century creation of the Nicene Creed that appears nowhere in the New Testament, in which God must be a fraud, since He pretends to be three distinct personages in scripture to attest of Himself for the huddled masses, when He is supposedly a strange triune being that can never be comprehended?

Allegiance to Salt Lake with a desire to rule the country? The original Saints were driven from the borders of the United States by levels of intolerance that included an extermination order issued by the governor of Missouri. That order wasn't even recinded officially until the late 20th century. Utah was not American territory when settled by Mormons, but they were trying to rule the world. Guess they're just REALLY STUPID in their approach...

Dictate your religion? Check please -- no member in good standing would ever infringe on your personal agency to choose as you will.

I won't even dignify the polygamy people with a response. Discontinued in 1890. End of story. Please move on.

Haggling Hagelin
You wrote, "if a candidate is loyal to America ..."

I had no problem with Mitt's Mormon faith! I do have severe problems with other religions. You mentioned Muslim, for example. Muslims swear allegiance to Allah, NOT America. Have you already forgotten the Muslim who refused to promise feisance to America and would only take the oath of office on the Koran? What about Obama's United Church of Christ whose tenets swear allegiance to AFRICA - NOT America.

Article VI prohibits religion as a litmus test for qualification for office; it does NOT preclude religious consideration when there exists a conflict which would cause the office holder to be less than dedicated to this country.


So what?
YOU KNOW, this debate about Mormons being Christians started the first day 14year old Joseph Smith told his preacher about his Heavenly visitation- Just like the debate about Jesus being the long awaited Savior of the world started with Mary's Heavenly visitation.

Is either one solved? NO, and yes.
For me, it is settled: I believe both. They are not mutually exclusive.

We lost probably the best qualified individual as a Presidential Candidate ever. Mitt had the most impressive resume by far, and was right on the issues as well. If it was due to those who, not only disagree w/ his faith, but feel it their life's work to rail against it publicly, then shame on them. He would have kept us all more free and much safer than the current flock of contenders.

Mitt 2012

sgerlach
"Whether in a court of law or just a discussion among peers, the voice of multiple witnesses has more impact."

What if the witnesses contradict each other? The Book of Mormon says Christ was born in Jerusalem, while the Bible says He was born in Bethlehem.

Does that really contradict?
sgerlach

"Whether in a court of law or just a discussion among peers, the voice of multiple witnesses has more impact."

"What if the witnesses contradict each other? The Book of Mormon says Christ was born in Jerusalem, while the Bible says He was born in Bethlehem."

Bethlehem is 5 miles outside of Jerusalem. It's a suburb, if you will. It's like telling someone that you're from Philadelphia, when you're really from Upper Darby.

Mormons ARE Christians
Who made up the erroneous information that early Mormon Church leaders said they were not Christians? That is so bizarre it is laughable.

Why is there more scripture? One of the purposes of The Book of Mormon is to prove that the Bible is true, which anyone knows is under attack from non-believers. The Book of Mormon is "A Second Witness for Christ." The Bible is a sacred history kept by prophets in the Old World, and the Book of Mormon is the religious history of peoples in the Americas, and also written by prophets. Yes, there can be more scripture. (Rev. 22:18 is referring only to the Book of Revelations, as any Bible scholar would know.)

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) so why couldn't He have his prophets in other parts of the world keep their religious history? He can and did.

Please tell us what you believe, don't make up things about what the LDS Church believes, such as wanting to take over America! Such garbage!

How about actually reading the Book of Mormon?

Forget religion - - Think Constitution
Mormon, Atheist, Jew, Christian, Voodoo… What matters is whether that faith skews someone’s execution of our Constitutional government. Since each of the candidates on both sides have proven their distain of the guidelines within the Constitution, we are left choosing who skews the government in “our” direction.

We are now to the point we argue over which of these pitiful people serves “us” instead of the Constitution they swear to uphold.

Christopher
"Bethlehem is 5 miles outside of Jerusalem. It's a suburb, if you will."

Nice try, but not sufficient. Five miles may not seem like much today, but for people who traveled mostly on foot or horseback, that was a pretty good stretch.

The prophet Micah predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Thus, the New Testament writers made a point of saying that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, because they saw His birth as a fulfillment of Micah's prophecy. Why does the Book of Mormon say He was born in Jerusalem?

Mormons for Huckabee
Whether or not you think the mormon faith is a cult.... to insinuate that mormons should vote for huckabee is akin to telling BLACKS to vote for KKK David Duke. Or WHITES to vote for the Luis Farrakahn.

Maybe we should disparage the JEWS for not voting for a NAZI? Evil JEWS, discriminating against a NAZI.

If you think this is a little over the top (Nazi's probably is) then I suggest you investigate the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention held in Salt Lake City UTAH. Please study up on the KEYNOTE speaker HUCKABEE, follow the CHRISTIAN teachings being passed around and what they were (and are today) saying about mormons. (and Huck ACTS like he does not know much about mormons, liar).

It may not mean much to you,,, but to a mormon, Huckabee going out of his way to preach the CULT crap IS the devil.

The funny thing is,,, Both BUSHES who easily won UTAH may believe mormons are a cult as well,,,, apparently they understand the difference of a PREACHER and a POLITICIAN,,, Here's to wondering why Huck does not.

Let's clear up some things
Utah according to the Salt Lake tribune as of 2004 is only 62% LDS in its population totals. Romney was the most conservative candidate and cleanest candidate available to vote for. Utah is the Reddest state in America and therefore voted for the most conservative candidate. If Tancredo was still in he would have probably gotten the majority of votes.

Mormons believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that his Atonement provides the grace by which we are saved. We do believe in the words of the Bible (we use the KJV), and we believe in the Old and New Testaments. In addition to these sacred scriptures we do believe in another Testament of Jesus Christ, which is the Book of Mormon, where the nickname Mormon comes from. The official name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We partake of the sacrament in remeberance of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins and as a reminder of the covenants we entered into at baptism. He is the Central figure of the Plan of Salvation laid out by God our Father and came in the merridian of time to take upon him our sins. He is our Savior and Lord and we worship him as such. So those of you who desire to hate us and remain in ignorance, that is fine, but do not say we are not Christian, we believe in his teachings and patterning our lives after our Savior, if that is not a Christian, I do not know what makes up a Christian. One thing I am sure of is that Christ loved all people and accepted them conditioned upon their willingness to follow him. As he expressed in the Bible. I lay down my life for my friends, ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command. That is what Mormons do, they follow his command!

P.S. I have Mormon friends who voted for Paul in Utah.

Mormon vote did not give Romney wins
I did a theoretical analysis of the Mormon vote in Utah and surrounding states and concluded that even without a single Mormon voting, Romney still would have won all of the "Mormon" states. The non-Mormon support in those states was still very high (in Utah, it was approximately 55-60%). Even though half of Romney's votes in Nevada were from Mormons, taking those away, he still wins by a big margin. Check out the analysis at http://www.myreputo.com.

Bethlehem vs Jerusalem Debate
There are big disagreements between the canon and the apocryphal literature regarding the exact birthplace of Jesus. Some sources say Christ was born at a point half-say between Jerusalem and Bethlehem, and some favor a cave, others a stall. The only thing that they can agree on is that the birth took place “in the land of Jerusalem.”

In 1887 the discovery of the Tell El-Amarna Tablets states that Bethlehem was also part of an area anciently called the land of Jerusalem.

So what many supposed was an error by Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon is just one more evidence of its validity.

Jerusalem vs. Bethlehem
Christopher,

Alma 7:10, right?

When I go to "Denver" to attend the temple, I'm actually in the city of Centennial. I shop in Northglenn, Thornton and Aurora while in "Denver". Truth be known, precious little of the business I do in "Denver" actually occurs in Denver.

If my future descendants read in my journal that I attended the temple in Denver, and see the city of Centennial on the map in that location, should they assume that my record is contradictory, and therefore false?

I have not looked up any official Church position on this, but I think it may be reasonable that a Book of Mormon prophet, while abridging a record from about 83 BC somewhere around 420 AD, over 1000 years after his forefathers left the Holy Land, might've mis-spoken concerning the actual city name, Jerusalem being the "metro area" in this case.

"And if there be faults they be the faults of a man" (Mormon 8:17). As Mormon abridged the record, he made it clear that he wasn't the strongest of writers, and apologized for his weakness in writing. Until I successfully abridge 1000 years of records into a book of a little more than 500 pages while being an active participant in a national civil war, I think I'll give Mormon the benefit of the doubt.

One of the things I love about the prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon is that they were real, fallible, normal men with extraordinary callings. Peter walked on water, yet lost faith and started sinking, and later even denied Christ three times in one night, but he's not a fallen prophet. Mormon may have screwed up what was to him ancient geography, but that doesn't change his testimony of Jesus.

I still make lots of trips to Denver that aren't really in Denver. That doesn't make me a liar or a fraud, just human.

Sorry Christopher
Guess I should have addressed that last to Ken.

TruBluAm, thanks for tha insight. I just learned something new!

sgerlach
"One of the things I love about the prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon is that they were real, fallible, normal men with extraordinary callings."

Under Old Testament law, making false statements in the name of God was an extremely serious matter. A true prophet was always right when he made predictions in the name of God - no exceptions.

It's not sufficient to say that Bethlehem was a "suburb" of Jerusalem, because it simply was not. The prophet Micah predicted that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem. If Jesus was born in Jerusalem, then Micah was wrong. Thus, according to the law of Moses, he was a false prophet.

Or could it be the Book of Mormon is wrong?

Ken
It is frankly hypocritical to quote the Jerusalem issue, since you didn't discover it on your own. YOu just cut-and-pasted it from an antimormon source. Shame on you.

Do your own thinking, Ken, and don't listen to the antimormon Barbies. This topic has been completely dealt with. Old news.

Ken, do your own reading, primary sources, and then we will talk.

Ken - inerrency
Another silly comment. Any anti-christian site can provide lots of examples of Bible prophecies that didn't come to pass. You are really tiresome.

DocJ
I have done my own reading, thank you. Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

Ken
Have you actually read the Book of Mormon and taken up the challenge to "ask God ... with real intent, having faith in Christ" to determine whether these things are true? See Moroni 10:4-5.

Look, we're not going to change each other's minds. It's up to the Spirit to do that. The point of the article was that a religious litmus test is unconstitutional. I think setting yourself up as someone else's judge without authority is unconscionable. I can respect your beliefs without feeling a need to tear them down. I'm happy to share my beliefs with you if you're willing to hear. Is the intolerance really necessary?

Mormons worship and follow Jesus Christ


Webster's Dictionary simply defines Christian "as a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings". That commonly accepted definition is entirely consistent with "Mormonism", as shown by even the most superficial examination of "LDS" beliefs, practices and writings, including the Book of Mormon, which Mormons accept as another testament of Christ along with the Bible. Certain anti-Mormon preachers have for years made their living spreading the big lie that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ. That's like saying the Pope is not Catholic. But if you repeat a lie often enough (while ignoring even the official name of the church), apparently some ignorant people will believe it. The undeniable truth is that the LDS Church has always worshiped the Biblical Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and Savior of the world. Every prayer, sermon and ordinance in the LDS Church is offered in the name of Jesus Christ. In fact, Mormons go so far as to try to emulate the Savior, and actually try to live their lives (imperfect as they may be) in accordance with His example and teachings.

Question
Why is Rebecca Hagelin wearing a hairdo from 1956?

No Biblical basis for Trinity?
First Chapter of the Gospel of John. To make it fit, I edited out the lines that don't apply, but you can't get around Jesus being the same as God when you read this passage.

In the beginning [Gn 1:1] was the Word,[Gk Logos is a title for Jesus as the communication and the revealer of God the Father; Jn 1:14,18; Rv 19:13] and the Word was with God,and the Word WAS God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were CREATED through Him,and apart from Him NOT ONE thing was created ... [Col 1:16; Heb 1:2]. Life was in Him,and that life was the light of men. That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome [or comprehend]it.
(Verses 6-8 removed for relevancy)

9 The true light who comes into the world gives light to everyone. 10 He was in the world,and the world was CREATED through Him,yet the world did not recognize Him.


11 He came to His own [people], but they did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to become children of God,to those who believe in His name,who were born, not of [lineal descent], but of God. The Word became flesh among us.

(Skipped verses 13-17)

18 No one has ever seen God.[Ex 33:18–23] except the One and Only Son Who has revealed Him.

This is just one place where Jesus' oneness with God is stated in the Bible.

I'm LDS!
i'M LDS, I'm 72 years old, teach Sunday School(including the Bible), am a Christian (but don't wear it on my sleeve) have had many exchanges over the years with so-called Christians, and find them tolerant for the most part, until I tell them I'm LDS, and then all Hell breaks loose, sort of like here at Town Hall.

So an old guy like me, who is Christian, does not go aroung bragging about it, nor ever give it much thought in the first place.

Somewhere above, the question is asked"Why if the Mormons use the Bible,(and we definitely do) why do we need the BOM?" Fair question, and was appropriately answered by some LDS folks posting here. Seeing this question, it provoked me to ask a question of my own "If the Holy Trinity is Biblical, as other Christians claim, then why was there a need for Constantine to ca

sgerlach
"The point of the article was that a religious litmus test is unconstitutional."

As I said in a previous post, my problem with Romney was not his religion, but his apparent wishy-washiness on certain issues. Many evangelical leaders defended Romney's right to run. I never disputed that.

"I think setting yourself up as someone else's judge without authority is unconscionable."

A previous poster said that Mormon religion is based on the Bible. I take issue with that statement. It is based on the Book of Mormon, and the two books are not compatible. You have a right to believe as you choose, but I will exercise my right to take issue with your beliefs.

"Is the intolerance really necessary?

What intolerance? No one is prohibiting from expressing your opinion. Do you wish to take away my right to do the same?

Bethlehem/Jerusalem
So Micah prophesies that the Saviour will be born in Bethlehem; the Book of Mormon states that He was born "at Jerusalem, the land of our forefathers." (Note: Not "in Jerusalem, the city of our forefathers). I have a question to help me clear this up. Who gets to decide what is "in Bethlehem" and what encompasses the land of Jerusalem? Can we go down to city hall and find out who surveyed the area in 0 AD (or 6BC to 7AD depending on which source you want to believe)? Is Jesus any less the Savior of the World because he was born half way between the two or on in a barn on the west end?

Is this quibble anything but the same type of thing the Sadducees and Pharisees would try and trap Jesus in like eating grain picked in the fields on the Sabbath?

If you believe the Book of Mormon then you can justify this phrase in it. If you don't believe the Book of Mormon then it is easy to discount any explanation. The Bible is no different: one gospel says there was one angel at the tomb another says there were two? If you believe the Bible is from God then this is a non issue. If you don't believe the Bible then this appears to be contradictory.

DocJ
"Any anti-christian site can provide lots of examples of Bible prophecies that didn't come to pass."

And your point is --? Are you arguing in defense of Mormonism? Mormons claim their religion is based on the Bible. It's a little dishonest to exalt and diss the Bible at the same time.

I'm LDS!
(Continued) to call the Council at Nicea to figure out just who the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were; after all, didn't the disciples walk, talk,touched and were taught by the Savior in thaat regard?

Last night I review web sites pertaining to the SBC, Church of the Nazarene and Seventh Day adventists, and while not too surprised to learn while that while they all claim to be Christians, use the same Bible(I think), but vary in their faith as what they believe. Interesting to say the least! Interesting also, how these describe "The Church" we here Christians often referring to.

So it goes!

aurorawatcher
First, a reference from Harper's Bible Dictionary [Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099]:

“the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” [I did copy/paste this one, DocJ :) ]

Jesus is Jehova, the God and Creator of this world. That makes Him God, but not God the Father, under whose direction He did all things.

I know there are several instances in which Jesus indicates that He and the Father are one. Likewise, Genesis 2:24 tells us that man and wife are to be one flesh. This doesn't create a new, strange composite being. This is a relatinship where the parties are one in heart, one in purpose.

reputo
"Who gets to decide what is "in Bethlehem" and what encompasses the land of Jerusalem?"

In biblical times, the cities were quite distinct.

Biblical basis for Trinity Pt 2
Genesis 1 (again, edited for relevancy)

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. ...
26 Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness." (See also, for OT reference to Trinity Ps. 104:30; Zech. 4:6)

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matt 28:19

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you." 2 Corinthians 13:13

"...according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for the sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:2

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4


Ken
Sorry if I came off as trying to stifle your opinion. That's not my intent. It just gets tiring to have people try to pick apart your faith.

I love the gospel. I know in my heart and soul that the Book of Mormon is a true witness of Christ, and a second witness of His divine mission. I'm sorry that we don't agree.

Please forgive my weakness. I would never intentionally try to limit the free speech of another. Please attribute it to weariness, and accept my sincere apology.

LDS Church based on the BOM????
Ken,without going into detail, the BOM is only the keystone of our religion. Many other Christian sects who base their beliefs on certain passages and interpretations thereof. So what's your beef?

Disagree
I am a Christian and I voted for Romney in my state's primary.

However, I think that Miss Hagelin is making the same mistake that liberals tend to mistake - confusing government with individuals.

Article 6 says that Mitt Romney's (or anyone else's) faith does not disqualify him from running for office. No government institution can prevent him from getting on the ballot to run for office simply because of his religion.

The Constitution describes what the government can and cannot do - not what individuals can and cannot do. A voter has the right to make their decision about who to vote for based on ANY criteria they choose. Whether that be his politics, his religion, his smile, that nice sweater I saw him wearing on TV, etc., the Constitution has nothing to do with an individuals choice.

Biblical basis for Trinity Pt 3
It's truly amazine how often the concept of Trinity is found in the New Testament.

"But when the completion of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “• Abba, Father!” Galatians 4:4-6

"But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning because as a firstfruit God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, either by our message or by our letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

"But when the goodness and love for man appeared from God our Savior,He saved us—not by works of righteousness that we had done,but according to His mercy,through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit has poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior." Titus 3:4-6

Then there's what Jesus says about Himself --

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." John 14:16-18

BIGSKYER
"the BOM is only the keystone of our religion."

But an earlier poster said your religion is based on the Bible.

"So what's your beef?"

You can't have it both ways. Is the Book of Mormon your only foundation, or is your religion based on both books? If it's the latter, how do you account for the contradictions between the Bible and the BOM?

"Many other Christian sects who base their beliefs on certain passages and interpretations thereof."

True, and they often contradict one another. The question is, which interpretations are correct and which are not?

As I said, I believe in religious liberty. I support every American's right to worship as he/she pleases. However, I have an equal right to voice my disagreement with them, and I do not apologize for exercising that right.

Early Church Fathers
Wrote about the Trinity and understood God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Some of these writers were putting pen to papyrus in the late 1st Century through the mid-3rd Century. They didn't need the Council of Nicea to tell them that God is One God with three ways of dealing with people. They understood this through the personal revelation of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Then along comes the heretic Arius and he's intelligently insisting that this cannot be true. A series of regional councils had already dealt with the issue when Constantine who really valued unity over correct doctrine invited all the bishops to Nicea to come to a conclusion. Constantine presided, but it is clear from the outcome that the bishops voted as they saw fit and not as Constantine would have preferred. All Nicea did was make a formal statement of what was already understood by orthodox Christian churches throughout. God is One God with three aspects or personalities that work together to accomplish His purposes like my two hands and my face work together to communicate to other people. My left hand doesn't do what my right hand does and my face is certainly not like either one of them, but together they perform a larger function than just one hand might.

When someone tries to limit God to something as confined as one concept, I know they don't know God. He's much too complex for such limitations. Breaking God the Father off and making Him a supreme being while relegating Jesus to an assistance role and saying the Holy Spirit isn't even a god -- well, that's a human concept of deity -- cutting it down to manageable size.

Do you really honestly think that the Supreme Deity would be that mono-dimensional? Those of us who have studied the Bible and the Early Church Fathers recognize a man-made concept when we read it.

sgerlach
I accept your apology. As I said, I have never questioned Mitt Romney's right to run for office. I wouldn't do that if he were the worst heathen on the planet.

As I also said, I think all of this talk about "anti-Mormon bigotry" has been grossly exaggerated. I didn't vote for Bill Clinton or Al Gore, either, but that hardly makes me "anti- Southern Baptist."

Aurorawatcher
Please,,,, if your going to give scripture suppossedly supporting your view of the TRINITY. Please ensure that the scripture would differ with that of others that do not have YOUR view on the TRINITY.

Exp... Like when Jesus prays to the father (himself).

Understand,,, if you are trying to promote the TRINITY creed that Constantine came up with in 400 AD you need to make sure that the scriptures you use are appropriate.

Aurorawatcher
"god is one god with 3 aspects or personalities that work together to accomplish his personalities"

Honey,,,, please don't make God into a Schizophrenic,,, OK.

You are doing a lot of damage to the TRINITY believers by trying to make sense of it. JUST STOP.

Your much better off using the creed Constantine gave and leaving the interpretation of it,,, to the MYSTERIES OF GOD.

Quoting Bible Dictionaries
Yes, I made use of a computerized Bible to glean verses that I am very familiar with. There's nothing wrong with using technology so long as you understand the concepts the technology helps you compile.

Easton's Bible Dictionary:

A word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Greek trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these:


1) That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1Ki 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30);

2) That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit;

3) That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit;

4) That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

Hmmm, Theophilus (writing around AD 170-80) and Tertullian (writing AD 220) -- both quite a bit before Nicea. They weren't the only early writers to express an understanding of the triune God. Nicea was a formal meeting that wrote down what was already commonly understood by 1st, 2nd and 3rd Century Christians based upon their understanding of the apostles' teachings and Jesus' own statements.

To continually refer to Nicea as anything more than a restatement of existing doctrine is to misrepresent the early Church and the doctrines they held dear.

Too Smart For Own Good
Sometimes we conservatives are "too smart" for our own good. Everybody made such a big deal about Romney's religion, Fred being boring, Tancredo being too "harsh", the rest of them not having a chance, etc... and we played right into the hands of the lefties! Now we are stuck with a bunch of nitwits to choose from. Great job people. We need to stop all this BS and get our act together or we are going to be screwed. Ann Coulter needs to keep her cute lips shut and that goes for any other conservative talk radio dudes because Clinton and Obama WILL NOT LISTEN TO US PERIOD! At least we will be able to put pressure on McCain.

Aurorawatcher
"god is one god with 3 aspects or personalities that work together to accomplish his PURPOSES"

I misquoted Aurora,,, it is purposes and not personalities.
I apologize....

However,,, this still makes GOD a schizophrenic.

Constantine didn't give a creed, Scooter
Please, study some history!

Constantine invited the bishops to Nicea, which was his eastern palace. He hosted them lavishly. He certainly opened the council's initial meeting and he may have attended some of the discussions, but it was mostly presided over by one of his assistants. Constantine didn't write the Nicene Creed. The bishops of the churches in attendance (except for the two who stormed out because their Arian heresy wasn't accepted) did. If you actually study it, you find that the concept of Trinity was not even the central focus in Nicea. The vote was 317-2, so there was no great controversy concerning the concept. The churches had already settled their understanding of it 150 years before. The only reason why trinity was an issue was because of the Arian heresy. Odd that -- when heresies try to pass themselves off as orthodoxy. They usually try to present those holding orthodox views as apostate. History tells a different story however.

Also, I didn't write "personalities"
I wrote purposes. Maybe you should re-read the post.

Scooter - again
The passage in John 14 - by all means, look it up. I suggest a little study in the Greek and maybe a good grasp of grammer. Jesus is discussing various concepts with His disciples. He says God the Father will send another Counselor when Jesus leaves them. But, note, that He says they already know the Counselor and will know Him because He remains with them. Then He says "I will not leave you as orphans. I am coming to you." It's pretty clear to someone who understands it that He's connecting Himself to the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, I know that trinitarian relationship; it's a part of my interaction with the Godhead. To read it in Scripture just verifies what my own experience has told me.

As it was verified for Tertullian, Theophilus, Augustine, etc. As the bishops at Nicea understood through their own relationship with Jesus.

aurorawatcher is right.
Contrary to what some of you pseudo-intellectuals may have read in "The DaVinci Code", Constantine had little to do with the Nicene Creed. All he did was call the council. He was no theologian, and he wasn't particular about which side prevailed. He only wanted to resolve the dispute in the church.

Also contrary to what you may have read in "The DaVinci Code", the final vote was not close. Over three hundred bishops attended the council. Only two voted against the creed.

Aurorawatcher
Is it me or are you now OK with more scripture than just the bible?

Theophilus and Tertulion,,, REALLY.
Should we now consider these writings part of the scripture too?

If you don't consider them part of the bible,,,, what makes them any different than CONSTANTINE scripture, or my scripture for that matter.

Constantine in the council of NICEA 400AD did not have a bone to pick over TRINITY vs. NONTRINITY,,, He simply picked whatever dogma he could rally his empire behind EASIER. Einy Meeny Miny Moe,,ETC... (he had to pick one, to consolidate power, he picked the TRINITY)

God is no schizophrenic!
As a human being, I myself exist in three parts -- body, soul, spirit. I'm cribbing off Augustine, who was a far greater thinker than anyone on TH.

My body is the physical aspect of me and it does certain things exclusive to a physical component -- eat, sleep, walk, etc.

My soul -- mind, emotions and will -- is what might be termed the psychological part of me. It does certain things exclusive to its nature -- thinking, enjoying art and music, loving my children, deciding to write in a blog.

My spirit is that which communes with the metaphysical. It also has its own tasks. Recognizing beauty, recognizing God, examining myself and finding want. This is the aspect of myself that can have direct connection with God and this is the aspect of all humans that will continue after their death.

There's nothing schizophrenic about recognizing differences within aspects of yourself. For exampe, it's cold outside today, so as I look at the mountains to the south I can consider them beautiful and thank God for them, but my body doesn't want to go hiking there, so I won't. My mind recognizes the beauty of the mountains and wants to go there, but my body working with my mind recognizes that hyperthermia is no fun, so doesn't go. Whether I go or not, my spirit interacts with God by thanking Him for His creation. Body, soul, spirit -- all working together to accomplish the purpose of keeping me alive with all of my fingers and toes.

Not trying to have it both ways!
Ken,
Not trying to have it both ways here. The BOM supplements the Bible and the other way around. So do the POG and D&C. Some Christian organizations also use the "Apostles Creed" as a meanst to supplement thier teachings and belief in God. I may be wrong here, and if someone knows for sure, but I think Lutherans use the Luther Bible and have been told the Germans do too. Catholics Bibles have more books than does our KJV or other versions. I persoanlly carry what we call a "Quad" which means it contains all our scriptures in one neat little package. It also contains cross references in each book.
Yes, our religion is based on many passages of the Bibleas well.

aurorawatcher
I'm confused. You seem to make an argument both that the members of the Godhead are each distinct, individual beings (an LDS belief), yet you also argue that they are a single being, and that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are different aspects of the same being.

I disagee that thinking of Father, Son and Holy Ghost as distinct individuals somehow diminishes Their godhood. Genesis states that we are created in Their likeness and image. How can that be if They are some form of trans-dimensional composite being? How can we try to get closer to God if we can't even comprehend His nature?

Ultimately, I find it very hard to accept a statement on the nature of deity that was decided on by popular vote. 317 people voting in favor of a contradictory document on the nature of God doesn't guarantee its correctness any more than 400+ members of Congress failing to eliminate earmarks constitutes a wise use of our money.

Aurorawatcher
So,,, there was not really any folks on the NON-TRINITY side huh...
Apparently enough that they needed a CREED to cannonize it.

It does not matter if Constantine came up with the wording of the CREED itself or his SPIRITUAL advisors did it. His purposes in doing so were for political purposes and his advisors knew this.

Why are you assuming that the Bishops in the Coucil of NICEA were any closer to the TRUE christianity then than WE are today?

You think they were closer to the time of JESUS so they had a leg up right?
So did the Holy Apolistic church and they gave us,,, paying for indulgences, inquisition, corruption..

Considering they were closer to the time of JESUS,, you must believe them too.

God is no schizophrenic! 2
So, if every human being is known in three aspects, why are we surprised that God is thusly composed -- we are created by Him in His image.

God the Father is an eternally existent spirit. Genesis and John together show a triune nature working together at creation. So from the very beginning, God had three aspects. Being limited human beings we're unlikely to fully understand it, but the concept is easily found in Scripture. Throughout the OT, there are examples of "the Lord" coming to speak face-to-face with Abraham, Joshua, etc. When the time came for God to step into human history as a human, that aspect of Himself that had always dealt with Man took on human flesh as the son of a human woman. Jesus had and still has a body. He lived, needed food, sleep, etc., and He died and His body was resurrected. Because of the work of faith in the lives of believers, we have a connection with God through the Holy Spirit. He leads us, He guides us, He helps us to understand Scripture and to see where later writings agree with Scripture. He is the Counselor.

This does not make God a schizophrenic any more than speaking in American Sign Language makes me one. My left hand might be in one shape and performing one movement while my right hand is in another shape performing another movement and my facial expression is showing whether I'm asking a question or making a demand. Three parts of me, doing three different things, accomplishing one purpose -- communication. In the same way, God communicates with human beings through three different avenues. They're the same God, but the way in which they interact is quite distinct.

Scooter
"He simply picked whatever dogma he could rally his empire behind EASIER. Einy Meeny Miny Moe,,ETC... (he had to pick one, to consolidate power, he picked the TRINITY)"

If Constantine had any bias at all, it was toward the Arians, who did not believe in the Trinity. They were outvoted by an overwhelming margin.

Less than fifteen years before the Council of Nicea, Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire. Many of the bishops attending the Council had endured persecution for their faith, and they were not afraid to do so again. To say that they embraced the Trinity to please Constantine is complete absurdity.

You obviously got your information from "The DaVinci Code." You would do better to get your facts from history, not from fictional novels.

BIGSKYER
"Catholics Bibles have more books than does our KJV or other versions."

Those extra books were not officially canonized by the Catholic church until 1546. They were not included in the Hebrew canon.

"The BOM supplements the Bible and the other way around."

My church has a doctrinal statement, which we use as a guide. However, we acknowledge that such statements are man-made, and must be subjugated to the Bible. Do Mormons take that same attitude toward the Book of Mormon?

Not Scripture - historical verification
I don't consider Tertullian or Theophilus to be writing Scripture -- and neither did they, btw. However, what they wrote is historical verification that orthodox Christians believed in the Trinity some 100-150 years BEFORE the Council of Nicea. You can't say it was Constantine's idea if he wasn't even born for 50 years.

Trinity was a Christian concept from very early on. The apostles didn't use the word, but they certainly wrote the concept into Scripture -- that which we call the New Testament.

Aurorawatcher
"as a human being I myself exist in 3 parts,, body, soul, and spirit."

Good,,,, now understanding that YOU are not your BROTHER, you are 2 seperate beings with your own body, soul, and spirit,,,, Maybe you 2 together want the same thing and have the same goals,,,, this you might refer to as 1 in purpose,,, WAALAAA

Next,,,, take your concept of seperate individuals and realize WE are made in GODS image. YEP,,, Body, soul and spirit,,,,

You see,,,, your comin around allright. Just give it some time to marinate some.

Aurorawatcher
So Tertullian and Theophilius are orthodox christians HUH...

Why,,,? Because you said so,,, OK.

Hey,,, Paul was not concerned about the various christian groups becoming UNORTHODOX 200 years before Tertullian and Theophilius was he?

scooter
"Paul was not concerned about the various christian groups becoming UNORTHODOX 200 years before Tertullian and Theophilius was he?"

He most certainly was. Read the book of Galatians.

help me here
Can somebody please tell me if having 3 different and distinct PERSONALITIES in the same person qualifies as SCHIZOPHRENIA?

Aurora,,, Honey,,, please stop,,, your slaughtering the incoherantness of the TRINITY. I much prefer Constantines non-explaination to yours.

Eyewitnesses or ...
Those who have spoken to eye witnesses are always preferred to someone living centuries after the fact. So, yeah, I think Theophilus, while not writing Scripture in AD 170-80, was a much more reliable source of information than Joseph Smith or Dan Brown as to what early Christians believed. He was an early Christian himself.

Mormons keep religion out of politics.

No self-appointed "expert" has the right to arbitrarily redefine Christianity, so as to exclude the vast majority of those of many churches (including Catholics, Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and others) who humbly believe in Christ and seek to follow Him. Let God judge what's in our heart, not man. And please, let’s judge candidates for office by their character, experience and competence, not by their private religious beliefs. Otherwise any candidate's faith will be fair game for bigoted attacks.

One more thing. Huckabee actively campaigns/preaches in churches in order to play to his "Christian" audience. Democrat candidates also commonly appear in churches to seek endorsements. You will never find Mitt Romney or any other Mormon campaigning in an LDS church because the LDS Church has strict prohibitions on the use of its facilities for any partisan purpose. The LDS Church stays out of politics and would no more try to tell Romney how to govern than it would try to control Harry Reed. Too bad other churches don't stick to religion and stay out of politics.

I totally agree...AND
"Of course, every voter should feel free to NOT vote for a candidate based on any reason -- their politics, their ideology, their position on this issue or that ... even their faith. But if a potential candidate is loyal to America, to say that he is unfit to run for office or unfit to govern because of his faith is just plain wrong -- and the Constitution makes that perfectly clear."

Would Townhall.com columnists support the candidacy of a solid conservative atheist or agnostic? The answer is cloudy...even though Rebecca's argument above would apply equally in those cases.

Remember all those anti-atheist columns that have appeared here? There was no discount in any of them on political ideology.

This philosophical agnostic would like to know how strong your Constitutional principles really are on the subject of "no religious test."

Romney displays true colors!!!

A liberal John McCain supporter or a super smart politician, which is it. This frees his conservative delegates to support Huckabee at a brokered convention.

I gotta hand it to him. Romney is good. Freeing his delegates is good for Huck. McCain has to like Romney. Romney is still playing Huck and McCain against each other.

Romney knows there is a better than even chance that McCain will not win another primary. That means a brokered convention. With that, anything is possible, even a MIRACLE!!!

Early heresies
Obviously Scooter hasn't studied Church history. That there were a number of different heresies that developed even in the 1st Century is well-known to anyone who has cracked a book on the subject. The fact that he thinks my paraphrasing of Augustine is my own thoughts shows you his level of education.

Yes, the apostles, particularly Paul, but also John when he penned the Revelation, were concerned about heterodox doctrines during their own lifetimes. Paul wrote Galatians, but he also wrote passages within Philippians, Colossians and the letters to Timothy that show his deep concerns about attempts to return Christianity to Judaism. John dealt with the Nicolaitans in Revelation. When the Gnostics appeared in the early 2nd Century, the early Church fathers wrote against them almost immediately. They recognized heterodoxy very quickly and weren't shy to call it heresy. If Scooter would look up Arius, he'd find that it was a relatively new heresy (beginning in the 4th Century) and that orthodox Christians had already been roundly condemning it.

Also recognize that the bishops were well acquainted with Scripture. Despite attempts to burn the books of the Bible, we still have many early portions that attest that these men had access to and great knowledge of the Bible. They weren't just going "well, I think I like this doctrine better." They were based the Nicene Creed on their understanding of the New Testament writings. The Nicene Creed was merely a formal synopsis of what they understood Scripture to be saying.

Question of the day, trolls disinvited

to participate. Why would any type of conservative voter choose to vote for McCain over Huckabee? McCain is clearly a liberal Republican. Huckabee is not.

ken and aurora
ken,,, i was being sarcastic,,, Paul was fighting the Unorthodox nature that was to result in the Council of NICEA,,, That is the whole purpose of pauls letters,,,,

It's nice you too can see what paul was fighting 50 AD, just imagine 400AD!

Aurora,,, so those 2 guys 150+AD got thier information from EYEWITNESS sources,,,, Uh huh (i think you might be interested in some swampland in FLORIDA for REAL CHEAP,, it's a can't miss)

My grandma told me, that her grandfather told her that ETC... NOT
Have'nt you ever played CHINESE WHISPERS,,,, have a go it's hilarious.

How did Romney's religion ever interfer?
Can anyone explain how Romney's church or private religious faith ever previously interfered in his career in business or in public service? Romney has a squeeky clean reputation professionally, personally and in public service. He never has had a hint of scandal in his life. He is known for the highest ethical standards. Plus he's brilliant and hardworking, having achieved a level of academic, business and political success that few Americans could rival. BUT he doesn't accept trinitarian dogma (that few Americans outside of seminaries could ever begin to explain). If that disqualifies him from public service in the minds of evangelical preachers, then they will only end up with another theologically "safe" but flawed candidate like Carter, Clinton, Bush or Huckabee.

I don't think our country can stand too much more of that kind of thinking.

Aurorawatcher
Just keep repeating it to yourself enough times and it becomes as true as the BISHOPS at the synod giving CONSTANTINE, (the real power). That he wanted a unified church UNDER HIS AUTHORITY, COMMAND, and DIRECTION.

To debate the TRINITY is one thing (very weak scripturally on your part in my opinion). To DENY that the council was set up for CONSTANTINE to set up a new state religion under HIS control is to lie to YOURSELF.

God works in mysterious ways now does'nt he,,,, solidifying HIS doctrine of TRINITY on a rapacious politician EMPEROR such as CONSTANTINE who magically on his deathbed becomes a convert.

But hey,,, whatever floats your boat.

Mormon faith
It is staggering how many people feel they can speak for the Mormon faith. The name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. He is the center of everything that happens within the church. It is surprising how many religious conspiracy theorists are out there- which has been brought to light by this campaign. They are so worked up and hysterical insisting members of the LDS church are hiding some dark and sinister secrets. Go to any LDS church meeting and listen to what is taught. The people who in reality are very ignorant about the church, yet so stubbornly claim to know so much have handed the republican nomination to someone who in no way represents conservative principles. Good work.

Mormons believe Jesus is a creature

and is not the same being as the Father. They have no real concept of the Holy Trinity.

Unleashing Southern Muscle
When Mitt Romney's campaign was in full swing posts 'exposing' the Mormons clogged the campaign blogs and comments. Anti-Mormon messages morphed out of nowhere like mushrooms after a rain storm. LDS authorities seemed astonished at the intensity of the criticism...

Read the entire article at:

http://mittromney.townhall.com



Can't abide by it!
The results of Council oF Nicea and it's definition of who the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, no matter how one slices and explains it, is still about the dumbest concept of all. So if the current Holy Trinity is allowed to stand, and was sanctioned by the Lord, or if it wasn't, someone is in deep doo-doo, then please tell me why the Council in its ultmate wisdom, did not go ahead and include the word "Trinity" in the Bible? Inquiring minds then as now would like to know! Moreover, if Tertulian and Theophilus and Augustine were for it and if they were Bishops, why didn't they call for their writings on the subject also be included in the Bible? Many believe the Bible to be innerant and is all that is needed for the Savlation of Mankind, but man has added to it.How neat eh?

Theophilus
Again, he was a theologian, not an apostle and he wasn't writing Scripture, but he did affirm the Trinity early on.

According to several books on Church history I have, Theophilus was the 6th bishop of Antioch, living in the 2nd half of the 2nd century. In other words, he probably knew people who had known Paul and Barnabas. Certainly he knew Ignatius, who was a disciple of John. Eusebius, an early Christian historian, reported Theophilus campaigned against gnostics and other heretics. He is the first Christian writer to use the word "trinity" to describe the varied nature of God's work in the world. He described the conjoined work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as "two hands working together". I would suppose in this metaphor that if Jesus and the Spirit are two hands, God the Father might be the brain directing them. Obviously part of the same Being, but two different parts acting to accomplish same purpose.

So, yeah, I don't think his knowledge was as distant as people would like to believe. He was a third-generation Christian in the nexus of Christianity for his generation. Antioch was, of course, the seat of gentile Christianity and the later home of a great Christian seminary.

Hello??
TR-Racer & the other paranoid fear mongers:

First, Mormons claim to be "Christian." They are speaking only a belief that Jesus Christ is The Son of God and Saviour of the World. They do not claim to be, nor pretend to be, another sect of traditional creedal Christianity.

Second, it's not hard to understand why Mormons overwhelmingly supported Romney. I'm from Nevada and I voted for Romney. However, I would never vote for Reid (who is LDS). Mormons do not mix religion and politics. That is, during the past two years attending Church each week I do not recall hearing Romney's name mentioned in discussions or endorsed by leadership. The reasons for Romney's support among Mormons had nothing to do with religion but everything to do with respect, or a perceived lack of for that matter.
For the last two years, Mormons have watched from their living rooms as the MSM, political pundits, and print media, debated whether Romney's "Mormon problem" would hurt him. From day one, it was "Mitt Romney, the Mormon, running for President." In effect, Romney became "one of us" because the media put him in that box. For Mormons, this year has been rather similar to the phrase "fly on the wall." We watch the nation debate as if we were not in the room, so to speak. To be honest it was a slap in the face and I think it rallied Mormons collectively. As a group we didn't plan or organize a Romney conspiracy.

polygamy is Mormon doctrine TODAY
LDS who say our church abolished polygamy are being dishonest or ignorant. There are many new converts who simply don't know their religion yet, and I can understand why they would preach false doctrine. I see many of these uneducated LDS post on this forum.

Our church has only put the practice of plural marriage "on hold" until it is legal again or in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. The church was forced to practice polygamy in secret first in Nauvoo and later in Utah when it was named one of the twin relics of barbarism. (slavery being the other) The church would have been destroyed had they not chosen to abide the law of the land. For many years after Wilford Woodruff declared the church would stop practicing polygamy (to gain statehood), the church continued to practice and sanction plural marriages in places like Mexico, Canada,... (Romney's Great Grandfather practiced it in Mexico after the manifesto)

The doctrine remains in our scriptures today.
See Doctrine and Covenants section 132 at LDS.org
(the official website of the church) Until the church removes these scriptures and condemns the principle as unGodly, members are disingenuous to say the church condemns it. The church only condemns the "unauthorized" practice of it. If it's commanded by the Prophet in the future, the members will obey.

Do you have Brown eyes Eddie!
eddie writes: Thursday, February, 14, 2008 5:29 PM
Mormons believe Jesus is a creature

and is not the same being as the Father. They
have no real concept of the Holy Trinity.

Oh but we do Eddie, and we believe that man was made in the image of God as a person rather than some mystical thing with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit wrapped up in an all knowing, all seeing, being everywhere at the same time concept. Did you ever aske yourself Eddy why if God could do all these things, why did he need a Holy Spirit to convince humankind of his existance?

By the way Eddie, if you don't have brown eyes, you should, as your're full of it clear up to your eye brows!

Constantine was baptized by an Arian
You do realize that, Scooter? Eusebius of Nicomedi was a distant cousin and an Arian sympathizer. It was he who baptized Constantine near the end of his life.

It would seem that Constantine was seeking unity, not correct doctrine. The bishops, who only a few years before had been suffering persecution for their faith, don't appear to have been of a mind to let Constantine dictate doctrine, even if Constantine had cared to do so. It appears that Constantine didn't care which side the Alexandrian controversy fell so long as the majority of the Church was unified behind one concept. The Arian question was settled fairly quickly, though the wording of the Nicene Creed, which is very similar the same as teh earlier Apostles' Creed and the baptismal creed of Jerusalem, took a bit longer to work out. Constantine wanted unaniminity and so announced that he would exile anyone who didn't vote for the Creed, but there's no historical evidence he did so. His son was an Arian and allowed Arianism to flourish under his rule.

So, I really don't think it's an honest assessment to say that Constantine created trinitarian and forced it upon the churches. These people had already shown a willingness to die for their beliefs. Why would they suddenly decide to re-write those beliefs because Constantine invited them to his summer palace? It would seem these men were much more awestruck by God than they were afraid of the Roman Empire.

Oh come on Mormons4Huckabee
Those multiple wives are all treated perfectly equally, as these women in Islamic states are.

Marriage: It's a good thing. It protects women from being college campus chattel, and civilizes men.

BigSkyer
Well, why didn't the Council of Nicea include the word "trinity" in the Bible?

Well, let's see. The last books of the Bible written by the Apostle John were written and circulated in the AD 90s. Christian writers very soon after that -- AD 120s -- began to reject new books of the Bible because they perceived them as written too late to be the work of an apostle or a close associate of an apostle. They recognized a degree of authority with regard to the source of writings they would accept as Scripture. They might, for instance, find something worthwhile in the Didache or an epistle from Clement, but they didn't consider it Scripture as they did the books we now call the New Testament.

So, AD 120 to AD 324 is 200 years. The New Testament had been thoroughly discussed, copied, distributed, vetted, discussed some more, etc. People had died horrible deaths to protect it. Earlier regional councils had already voted and established what the Nicene Creed would make catholic. The belief of the early churches was that Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father and that Arius, who operated only in Alexandria and had a very small following, was a heretic.

Since in the minds of the bishops at Nicea that "canon" of the New Testament had been closed for 200 years, they didn't feel free to go back and change what the apostles had written. That's how much they reverenced the Scripture! It took an 11th Century Roman Catholic monk to insert a bold Trinitarian statement into 1 John 5 (which all modern non-Catholic translations flag as a later addition). The bishops felt comfortable saying "This is what we believe and our Christian forebears have believed for a long time," but they didn't feel comfortable changing Scripture to make the Scriptural witness stronger. That was their degree of reverence for the writings of the apostles.

Quoting Theologians
I'm not one, so I thought I'd quote one -- Scott Horrell, Th.D (Dr. of Theology) from Bible.org on Trinity --

"Before any and all creation, God was completely self-sufficient and all-inclusive. All that existed was God. There was nothing that was not God. Without beginning, the Supreme Being is infinite in each of his many characteristics. Yet rather than contain all opposites, God eternally chooses to be himself, and his choosing is forever expressive of his nature. God’s attributes are not contradictory but rather entirely consistent with one another, for God is simple and God is one.

"Moreover, the Supreme Being is profoundly personal. “Though alone” before creation, as Hippolytus remarks, “he was multiple.” In Holy Scripture, God reveals himself as three persons. Whereas order and function differ, each person is shown to be equal and one with the other, of the same essence and quality. Yet each is also eternally distinct as person. Thus, the members of the Holy Trinity can be known and worshiped together as God, or known and worshiped individually as God.

"Ultimately, this Most High God is mystery. Some aspects of the divine nature may not be revealed nor could they be comprehended by finite beings. Rather our understanding of God is based upon revelation given in a finite situation and in conditions that have meaning for us as finite beings. It is through God’s grace in self-revelation (especially through Jesus Christ and the Bible) that he can be known. Yet what God has revealed of himself is true to what he is and fully sufficient to know and to love him. We conclude that God, before any and all creation, existed as all-inclusive, self-sufficient and tri-personal as Holy Trinity."

Defining Christianity and Mormonism I
I respond to Kaanapalii's post above. "Christianity" must mean something, or it is a useless term. "Christianity" must therefore be defined. Kaanapalii's position seems to be that it is somehow bigoted or inappropriate to challenge anyone who applies the label "Christian" to their beliefs. I reject that position.

Mainstream Christians believe that Christianity is defined by the Old and New Testaments (especially the New). While there are doctrinal disputes, I think that most mainstream Protestants (Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.), as well as most Catholics and Orthodox believers, recognize each other's beliefs as fundamentally Christian. Their shared beliefs are:

(1) The Trinitarian nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit);
(2) The divinity of Christ;
(3) That Christ was born, died as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of all men, was buried, and was resurrected;
(4) That God's true revelation to man is contained in the Old and New Testaments.

As I understand it, Mormons reject the authority of the Old and New Testaments in favor of the Mormon scriptures (Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). Mormons accept the Old and New Testaments only to the extent that they are "translated correctly," meaning that they reject the Old and New Testaments when inconsistent with Mormon scriptures.

[To be continued]


Open Letter to Mormons…

Before he dropped out of the race I thought Mr. Romney was the best candidate and I would have voted for him. This is not about anti-Mormonism; it is about truth.

Morality alone will not provide you entrance into the kingdom of God. A perfect righteousness is the only way to heaven because ‘God is light and in Him is no darkness at all’ [I John 1:5].

Everyone at the wedding feast is given a robe by the king in honor of his son. This robe is the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to all those who rest in Him alone to cover their sin. These are the ones whose sins were imputed to Him who knew no sin when He suffered for them on the cross. [Matthew 22]

You say your holy book is a second testament of Christ. By this you imply that there is deficiency in the first. This we cannot abide without comment. The NT testimony is clear…

‘God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son’ [Hebrews 1:1-4].

Are we to expect a fuller revelation after the great prophet has come who is the image of the living God? The coming of the New Covenant in Christ is the focal point of history. The Scriptures testify to His perfection [Colossians 2:1-9] and to the completeness and sufficiency of His testimony [2 Timothy 3:16-17].

The Bible says that the foundation of the Church is built upon the apostolic testimony, Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone…

‘Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband…Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb’ [Rev 21:2; 14].

The prerequisite for apostleship is given in the Bible; an eye witness from the beginning of Christ’s ministry to the resurrection and ascension…


Continued on blog...

Mormons4Huckster
Get a life! You have a chip on your shoulder the size of an elephant. I'm an active LDS member and have always struggled with polygamy. It is a weird doctrine and difficult to harmonize with other concepts. But the truth remains that God has sanctioned polygamy at various times throughout history. Besides, all of these human arguments presume that you are as smart as God and that you know the beginning and the end. What hubris! What garbage! Some things we will not understand in this life, and maybe not in the next either. Get over it.

Mormons ARE Christians
We believe in the same Jesus Christ as all Christians. Our doctrine may differ but there really is no reason our view of the trinity may not change in the future. I also hope for the day our church leaders will condemn the principle of polygamy and remove it from our Doctrine and Covenants. LDS apostles and other men are still being sealed to multiple women in the temple today, while women can only be sealed to one husband. Mormons believe men must have plural wives to achieve exaltation (become a God) as commanded in section 132. The church has never removed this requirement. The doctrine of 131 & 132 teaches that monogamous couples will only inherit the second level of the Celestial Kingdom and assist the polygamists in the creations of worlds.

I am a "Progressive Mormon" and believe the doctrine of the Trinity currently taught in Mormonism is not in line with the Book of Mormon or the Bible. Joseph Smith's teachings were often complex contradictions and his first vision was changed multiple times. Some of Joseph's teachings on the trinity support the traditional Christian view but the church has chosen to focus on only one version of his teachings.

I now worship Christ as my Father and Savior. He is the God of this earth even in the Book of Mormon and we are His children.
I was always confused by the way I was raised/taught to pray to a Heavenly Father but worship Christ through Him when the scriptures clearly stated that Christ is our Father and God.

10,000 Christian Churches?
I read somewhere that there are something like 10,000 Christian churches. That number may be wrong but it's obvious that the Bible alone leaves a gaping gap in our knowledge of who we are, where we came from, and where we are going when we die.

I only wish there were living prophets and apostles and additional scripture written by authorized prophets speaking for God, so we could know Him better.

Doesn't God care about us anymore? Didn't He record somewhere in the Bible that He was unchanging? Why then did He abandon us to just the few books chosen by a council of men to be part of a bigger book we call the Bible?

That book didn't work too well because people have the nasty habit of interpreting the same words and sentences differently. (Except in political campaigns of course.)

If the Bible was all we need, why would there be thousands of churches, each claiming the Bible to be the whole truth?

Strange isn't it? Wonder why God didn't think that might happen.

And here we all thought God was unchanging...


Nusha-I don't want the Priesthood
Nusha believes I have problems with the Priesthood????
I guess he doesn't know that women already have the Priesthood after receiving their endowment and use it in temples today. Women used to bless the sick with their Priesthood power in the early days of the church. Nusha do some church history study before reporting on the Mormon religion. You sound like a Chapel Mormon or new convert.

I oppose the Patriarchal order in the temple that places women below their husband. (we are taught and covenant to submit to our husband as he submits to God)
We should be equals in marriage and in our submission to God. Our roles are and should be different by the way God designed us and I do support the proclamation to the family.
Polygamy on the other hand is abusive, degrading, & creates an inequality of the sexes.