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Thursday, January 24, 2008
Rebecca Hagelin :: Townhall.com Columnist
"Real Solutions" and Teen Sex
by Rebecca Hagelin
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“It’s difficult to really be abstinent until marriage because it’s a lot of different things pulling at you when you’re a teenager.”

No, that’s not Jamie Lynn Spears talking. That’s 16-year-old Kristen Brown, speaking earlier this month to a CBS News reporter in search of a typical teen. Yes, the cultural minefield of abstinence education is back in the news, thanks not only to Miss Spears but to the latest report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

According to the CDC, the nation’s teen birth rate rose in 2006 for the first time since 1991. Among girls 15 to 19, the rate went from 40.5 births per 1,000 females in 2005 to 41.9 births a year later. It wasn’t completely unexpected -- the decline in the teen birth rate had been slowing for a while -- but the reversal, obviously, was an unwelcome development.

Unwelcome, that is, to everyone but the “just give teens contraception” lobby. These folks were quick to tout the CDC report as proof that teaching teens to refrain from sex is a waste of time.

“Congress should … immediately stop funding for dangerous abstinence-only programs that deny young people information about how to prevent pregnancy, protect their health and make responsible decisions,” said Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America. “It’s time to put money toward real solutions that will help prevent unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections among teenagers.”

Her so-called “solutions”? Birth-control pills. Condoms. Diaphragms. All of which send an unmistakable message to teens: “You have no self-control, and we don’t expect you to. We know you’re going to ‘do it,’ so just make sure you’re ‘safe’ when you do.”

Never mind helping teens learn the skills they need to say “no.” Forget the guys who may be willing to avoid sex -- they’ll have no excuse when the “cool” kids tease them. And the girls who would like help saying “no” when their boyfriends pressure them? Sorry, they’re on their own. Some “solutions”!

It’s ironic, too, to see the condom crowd jump on the uptick in the teen birth rate to bad-mouth abstinence education. After all, they had their way for years before true abstinence programs became widespread, and the teen birth rate kept climbing. By their logic, doesn’t this prove that “comprehensive sex ed” doesn’t work?

In fact, plenty of reliable studies demonstrate that abstinence education does work. Check out familyfacts.org and search for “abstinence.” One study, published in the journal Adolescent and Family Health and based on data from National Vital Statistics Records, the National Survey of Family Growth, and the Alan Guttmacher Institute (formerly the research arm of Planned Parenthood and no friend of abstinence education), notes that:

“The factors most strongly related to the decline in teen pregnancies and teen births from 1991 to 1995 were an increase in abstinence and a decline in the percentage of teens who were married. Increased abstinence among teens accounted for most of the reduction in births and for 67 percent of the reduction in out-of-wedlock teenage pregnancies.”

I could cite other studies that reached similar conclusions, but you get the idea. The notion that abstinence education has been proven false is utter nonsense. Sadly, though, it’s a message that’s catching on in certain quarters. New Mexico recently became the 15th state to reject abstinence-only funding from the federal government.

This despite the fact that surveys show parents overwhelmingly support abstinence education. “Over 90 percent of parents, at a minimum, want teens to be taught to abstain from sexual activity until they have at least finished high school,” one study from The Heritage Foundation notes. Almost as many, 84 percent, go further, preferring that teens be taught to abstain “until a couple is married or close to marriage.”

Parents aren’t alone: “Teens themselves also favor abstinence education: Over 90 percent agree that teens should be taught to abstain from sex until they have at least finished high school,” the Heritage study says. Of course, we should be teaching the whole truth - that sex outside of marriage (regardless of age) is always unhealthy, risky and morally wrong.

And what about the teens caught in the middle of this debate? “I think they’re the victims of a huge lobbying effort on behalf of the contraception education proponents, who truly do not want abstinence education to exist,” says Elayne Bennett, president of the Best Friends Foundation.

That’s why it’s so important for parents to make their voices heard. Don’t allow the condom crowd to push abstinence education aside. Our kids need us to speak up. “So many people have had sex and had sexual experiences, so you sort of feel left out,” says Kristen Brown, the girl I began by quoting. It’s time to help her and her friends understand that abstinence is not only perfectly normal. For the sake of their health and happiness, it’s essential.

 

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About The Author
Rebecca Hagelin is a public speaker on the family and culture and the author of the new best seller, 30 Ways in 30 Days to Save Your Family.
 
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Laura re Rich D
No.

Rich D's posts are all abouthim claiming debating points.

His tricks include:
* inverting your point and saying the equivalent of "So there!" So what? more like it
* quoting his favorite book, as if that meant anything
* bullying
* asking if you have a point/meant what you said (just read it Rich!)
* and my personal favorite, simply claiming he's won.

Ignore him.



Tweaky
"
Abstinence opponents make fun of the "prudes who are trying to shove their morality down our throats by telling adults they should wait until marriage." They don't mention the kids; they build a straw man and knock it down. Then they pat themselves on the back for being more "sophisticated" than those "religious nuts"."
So why mention marriage.

Most teens know that they will not get married at eighteen. Most teens know that they will not get married until at least their late twenties. The idea of being a virgin at that age is downright preposterous.

A better message is waiting until they grow up.

Normal America Disagrees
"The more snarky and deliberately offensive the comments you make become the more people will be able to see who has won the debate without my having to say another word.

Right and wrong exist regardless of whether you approve of them or not.

Morality is eternal and unchanging regardless of whether you accept it or not.

And throwing insults demonstrates only that you have nothing pertinent to say."
Normal America rejects the message of abstinence-until-marriage. I posted the link to the study in an earlier post.

The average age of first marriage is TWENTY-SEVEN years. As we have seen, almost no one is willing to wait that long.

I get it
Margaret Thatcher writes: Friday, January, 25, 2008 7:35 PM

""Pride goeth before the fall ya know!"

It doesn't say that - care to put another finger on the table?

WHAT doesn't say that? Was I making a direct quote? Did I reference anything?"

OK, I get it now - you're not just _acting_ dumb; you really don't know when your so-called "facts" are really opinions. LOL.

Laura Bush/Margaret Thatcher
Ah...Beautiful Sophie. I had an idea but wasn't 100% sure it was you.

San Diego huh? Never been there. Been to San Fanscisco once. A little too dreary for me. I prefer the Great Lakes area myself. Had an Uncle that lived in Yuma Arizona. He moved back here for his 80th birthday after living there for 3O some odd years. Couldn't take the heat anymore I guess.

No children yet huh? Let the blessing come I say and then we can have a real discussion on high horses and such. He He.

Anyway, good luck with the name game. I'll try and keep my eye out from now on.

Mary C
You need your password. Go to your sign in or log in page. At the top there is a tab that says "Your Info". Click there. Should bring up your information. Once there you can opt to edit your information that you gave when originally signed up on TH. From there come up with a creative name other than N/A and problems solved.

MellorSJ2
You have a way with words, N/A
"Self-serving libertines" makes about as much sense as "Smashing Pumpkins." And it sounds a lot more fun :)

Why, thank you! I really think it would be a great band name. Their first album could be "Mother of Four."

Mary C.

(The N/A listing is not my doing. This thing just lists me like that. Any idea how to fix it?)

Mrs Bush
Enjoy your weekend in SAN, in the sunshine.

Long weekend for me, but too many people on the beaches!

ModerateMark & Mrs Bush
Software, me. But many would say we're not engineers!

But one's sense of humor can be driven from you by these people.

Do you feel you shoulder's hunch? And your hands become claws? Since reason is not a currency here (see Mother of Lunacy for example), it is too easy to lash out.

Thank you both for raising the level of discussion so that it can be fun.

Poor Mother of 4
Not quite.

Repeating the same unsupported assertions demonstrates only that *you* have nothing pertinent to say.

Claiming victory without once producing an argument (other than your oft-repeated opinion) doesn't mean you won, either.

Or is this just another of your assumptions that do not require evidence?

Margaret Thatcher
The more snarky and deliberately offensive the comments you make become the more people will be able to see who has won the debate without my having to say another word.

Right and wrong exist regardless of whether you approve of them or not.

Morality is eternal and unchanging regardless of whether you accept it or not.

And throwing insults demonstrates only that you have nothing pertinent to say.

MT: Stunningly inept...
and illogical to boot. You must be playing the liberal board game and just pull a comment from the little card deck of bumper-sticker bites, as nothing you've said is really responsive to my posts, or anyone else's for that matter.

"Margaret Thatcher writes: Friday, January, 25, 2008 1:51 PM
Nice try Rich D
Apparently you do not realize the difference between fact and faith...

Science and religion."

Stop blinding us with your non sequiturs, please. We now have your Biblical illiteracy added to your economic and political illiteracy. You seem to be trying hard to add philosophical illiteracy to your resume. I'm beginning to suspect that someone has to turn on and connect the computer to the website for you. Please tell me that I'm wrong so that we all can save our remaining kleenex.

Chop 2
Margaret Thatcher writes: Friday, January, 25, 2008 1:51 PM

"You're probably one of those that believes the earth is 6000 yrs old cuz the bible says so!"

It does not and I do not. You just lost another finger.

A few more, and we'll have Chop Suey.



Margaret Thatcher
Just wondering:-Have you and your husband ever driven a Ferrari on the Autobahn?


Anne
No worry here on my part.

If she does get booted though it will be too bad becauase the Margaret Thatcher thing is quite funny. A lot more creative than other names on here that I have seen. Princess of the Deep Dark Netherworld of Beyond comes to mind. A little over the top for my taste but Margaret Thatcher I find funny but that's just me.




western bondbeam: "...in the future?"

Not to worry, there usually isn't too much of a future for this pathetic poster who calls herself Margaret Thatcher.....

She's had countless screen names because she gets booted from TH on a pretty regular basis.

And you can easily guess why.



Margaret Thatcher
Let me properly introduce myself just so you know (in the future) what to expect from me. :-)

Christian: Yes and glad to be.
Married: Yes and happily. Haven't hit the quarter yet but well past the dime.
Children: Yes- 4 total although only three are a direct result of "me and the wife" doing you know what.
Conservative: Depends on the topic but generally yes. Will vote conservitive in general election more than likely but still waiting on that one. My just be a protest vote.

I live in the midwest and yes it is cold out today. -6 this morning. It's great.

Everything else is speculation.





Jack
"I did find some data that shows non sexually active teens do better in school. My bad."

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George swears off sex and in a matter of days becomse a genius. Funny stuff.

Margaret Thatcher
"Cherry" picking now are we (pun intended).

Contrary to many, we in the AO crowd are not prudes nor pretend to be. You caught my comment yesterday regarding manhood rising or falling on ones virginity. Yes I slipped it in there (oops there I go again) just to see if anyone would catch it. You did.

While your Jesus comments (in very poor taste I might add) may be a bold attempt to provoke a fight (admittingly you got me yesterday with the Planned Parenthood comments) I am not falling for the bait today.



Jack, I DO rock
I am a high school drop-out - sort of (I also have a college degree - which I won't explain), I have tremendous common sense... and I could very likely be your boss.

Modern education does not indicate wisdom, it discredits wisdom. Your idiocy indicates a mind polluted by a liberal education and a liberal ideology.

Now, shut up and get back to work!

Whoops, My Bad
I did find some data that shows non sexually active teens do better in school. My bad.

Phileo Rocks, albeit unintentionally

I love it. You write:

"Sounds like any high school drop-out with common sense could figure that one out." which I assume refers to you?

Regardless, your answer is perfectly matched to the Original post. Its anothe rexample of how conservatives simply avoid the issue of data, evidence or support.

There is no data I could find which indicates sexually actives teens are less successful than sexually active teens.

Post Menopausal
I could understand why teenage girls would want to delay sexual activity, since an unwanted pregnancy would devastate their lives.

What about post menopausal women? They would have little reason to abstain from sex, except perhaps if they live somewhere where everyone is doing that sort of thing.

Mother of 4
"... if you want to be jealous of people "getting it" consider the range from a MINIMUM of 3 times a week up to twice a day."

Apparently there are some unaware of how an individual becomes a mother of 4. Makes me wonder if any of your detractors here actually have any children.

No, phileo, I won't. Neither will you
"BTW, if you were to die today, would you go to heaven?
Have you considered that one day your life on this earth will be over and you will meet your Maker? "

See subject line.

"Please consider a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's the best decision you could ever make."

Not a chance. As Mr C said: "If I met an over-30 virgin, I would run! S-C-A-R-Y!!!!!"


dbz77
"They are not getting any, while they know that everyone around them, even their own family, has had sex."

Certain things should be considered private inside a couple's marriage, but if you want to be jealous of people "getting it" consider the range from a MINIMUM of 3 times a week up to twice a day.

dbz77
Your conception of conformity as the highest goal is asinine. Haven't you ever heard of the idea of being an individual?

Sewage sludge conforms to its environment.

Even amoebas can do better than that.

Jack, it's called common sense
you write: "'It's clear that an adolescent who disciplines their hormones will more likely be a better student and a more successful adult.' You are aware that there is absolutely no basis to make such a claim?"

Sounds like any high school drop-out with common sense could figure that one out. I hope you didn't pay too much for your "education".

Tweaking Tweak
You write:

"It's clear that an adolescent who disciplines their hormones will more likely be a better student and a more successful adult."

You are aware that there is absolutely no basis to make such a claim?


Chop!
Margaret Thatcher writes: Thursday, January, 24, 2008 8:09 PM

"Pride goeth before the fall ya know!"

It doesn't say that - care to put another finger on the table?

Hypocrite?
Margaret Thatcher writes: Thursday, January, 24, 2008 8:09 PM

"Correction:

Your sentence SHOULD read:

According to MY belief system, sex outside marriage is alway wrong. Period."
----------

Correction, YOUR sentence should read:

According to MY belief system, your sentence should read "According to MY belief system, sex outside marriage is alway wrong. Period."

MT, are you so slow that people's opinions need to be labeled as such or just a hypocrite because you don't so label yours?

Call me Mellor-Yellor
MellorSJ2 writes: "Tweak! I can't stand the pressure! ... abstinence will work... exclusive monogamy is hard to police."

Abstinence proponents don't want to police exclusive monogamy, they want to encourage it. The Judge of the Ages will police it.

BTW, if you were to die today, would you go to heaven? Have you considered that one day your life on this earth will be over and you will meet your Maker? Please consider a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's the best decision you could ever make.

dbz77
"What kind of conviction is failing to have sex?"

Just for clarity here, failing to have sex is NOT a conviction.

Choosing to wait for marriage until having sex IS a conviction. I have friends with this conviction in their early 20's and I have known them since they were early teenagers. Their conviction is not of my doing but one that they were instilled with by their parents. If I thought they were wrong (which I don't) I still wouldn't try and convince them otherwise. I wouldn't call them names or tease them either.

For myself, I have no desire to conform to those around me just to fit in or avoid being teased. I have a backbone and have found that it oomes in handy quite often. Also, when I mess up (which happens a lot-what can I say, I'm human) I man up and apologize for my mistakes because that's a conviction of mine and I will not stray from that. Am I weak for apologizing? Some may think so, but again I have a backbone so I don't really care if they call me a names for apologizing. Doesn't bother me.

And just for the record, I did apologize to Margaret Thatcher for the abortion comment. I was clearly wrong in my assumption and admitted my screw-up. And she accepted my apology and we moved on. That's how it works. You can read my official apology earlier on this thread if you don't believe me.

As for you, let me ask: What kind of conviction is choosing to have sex at all costs?


for Mother of 4
Mother of 4 claims: "Reserving sex until marriage has been the standard held up by every successful society/culture and the teaching of every major religion throughout history. "

That's not true.
It is true of Judaism and its spinoffs (Christianity and Islam).

And even there, the age of marriage was MUCH younger than it is now. The prophet Mohammed married a 6 year old girl and consummated when she was nine years old.

But it's not true of:

The Canaanite religion (Baal; offered free sex with priests)
Greek deities (e.g. Zeus/Aphrodite)
Roman deities (e.g. Jupiter/Venus)
Buddhism and Hinduism (e.g., Tantric sex)

Under Roman law, "Adultery" was defined as a married citizen having an affair with another citizen. It was NOT considered adultery for a married citizen to have sex with one of his or her slaves. Wealthy husbands had sex with their female slaves, and wealthy wives had sex with their male slaves.

N/A, do you not understand analogy?
"She also compares having sex to taking a dump. Methinks this lady has some serious issues! (Leisha, when you say they control that urge, are you suggesting not taking a crap until they're 30? Boy, talk about prying a bug out of your arse!)"

What is said was that children learn to control the bathroom urge, and take care of it WHEN and WHERE appropriate. I am not suggesting that anyone not "take a crap until they're 30." What they should do is learn to control the sex urge, and enjoy it WHEN and WHERE appropriate -- which is within marriage.

Guessing you were absent the day they taught analogies in school.

As for me, no issues here.

Tweak! I can't stand the pressure!
"Phileo got it right. The only safe sex is exclusively monog[a]mous and is practiced within the free and open bounds of a covenantal relationship called marriage."

The first clause is partially true: abstinence will work too; and exclusive monogamy is hard to police. What dis Hillary believe?

The second clause is nonsense.

But what about the children?
I read the article and then a few of the comments which were, unfortunately, predictable.

Abstinence proponents are intent on protecting and guiding children toward an adolescence that will more effectively allow them to focus on their education and their evolution into adulthood. It's clear that an adolescent who disciplines their hormones will more likely be a better student and a more successful adult.

Abstinence opponents make fun of the "prudes who are trying to shove their morality down our throats by telling adults they should wait until marriage." They don't mention the kids; they build a straw man and knock it down. Then they pat themselves on the back for being more "sophisticated" than those "religious nuts".

Phileo got it right. The only safe sex is exclusively monogomous and is practiced within the free and open bounds of a covenantal relationship called marriage.

I'm thinking of getting myself banned...
Watch this space for a bumpersticker I'm thinking of having made up. It begins "Accelerate evolution:"

You'll have to wait for the rest, but your first topic above would be the next line :)

You have a way with words, N/A
"Self-serving libertines" makes about as much sense as "Smashing Pumpkins." And it sounds a lot more fun :)

I liked it _all_ (I won't copy it... you know, the Bandwidth Police are watching) and would quibble only with: "Your sanctimonious rantings just crack me up! Are you for real girl?"

Oooooh yes. She's for real. That, or a very VERY good comic actress. My quibble is with "rantings." They are just that to anyone with an ounce of common sense, but I think Mother of 4 is deadly serious. After all, it's her 'soul' (and ours, she would have us believe) that's at stake.

I myself am a devotee of the Great Elf. But do you ever see me trying to ban the consumption of mushrooms? I mean, how could anyone _eat_ (shock! horror!) the House of the Lord? And why should I do care what happens to your Stem? That's between you and the Great Elf.

Gay Rights Movement
Looking at history, the gay rights movement started to gain sympathy and support from normal America until the movement threw its weight behind suing same-sex marriage into law. When that started, normal America turned against the gay rights movements.

I mention this because a similar thing is happening with the abstinence movement. Back in the 1990's, when I was in high school, it was presented as a choice, with its own expected results. There was no vilification of singles who had sex with other singles. There was no demonization of the use of birth control.

But the movement was hijacked by a bunch of pathetic losers who could not get laid. Their message preaching AGAINST singles sex turned normal America against the whole movement. Normal America does not practice abstinence until marriage, and by demonizing those who refuse to practice that, they offended normal America.

Jealousy
"With these peoples' attitudes about sex, I can't see them having much. So, the question that begs to be answered is, why are they so obsessed with trying to ruin it for everyone else?"
Jealousy.

They are not getting any, while they know that everyone around them, even their own family, has had sex.

There are two ways to deal with jealousy - either fix yourself so that you measure up to others, or pretend that you are better than everyone else.

I should note that the abstinence movement was not always like this. When I was in high school, abstinence was discussed- as a choice, with its own set of expected results. It was not presented as the only way, nor did it preach that single people who had sex with other singles were evil.

That would be a great name for a band!
Mother of 4: "The self-serving libertines are certainly out in force today."

I love it! Self-serving libertines unite. You have nothing to lose but your virginity!

There's more!

Mother of 4: "To say that a teen girl is no more capable of choosing her actions than a b-tch in heat or that a teen boy can no more choose whether or not to unzip his pants than a buck in rut is to degrade and devalue everything that being human means."

Your sanctimonious rantings just crack me up! Are you for real girl?

Mary C.

Run, Lola, Run
Phileo: "By the way, Maggie, my wife and I were both over thirty when we married. Our first sexual encounter was on our wedding night. It was kind of cool that we were both awkward and nervous - and that we had a lifetime to figure it out TOGETHER. I think my wife is the greatest lover in the world. She thinks I'm a stud. And you can't convince either of us that we're wrong."


How the hell would either of you know?

If I met an over-30 virgin, I would run! S-C-A-R-Y!!!!!

Mary C.

Well said, dbz77
Phileo: "What are the rational reasons for eleven year-olds to engage in sex... or fifteen year-olds?"

dbz77: They can wait until they grow up.
Maybe you should support a message of abstinence until adulthood.

______________________________________

Here here! Why the devil would anyone advocate 18 year-olds getting married? Why would a (normal) 18 year-old want to get married? Great Scott, what century are you people from?

They should say avoid sex until after high school. It's for adults. That does not mean keeping yourself a freakish 35 year old virgin!

Mary C.

Schadenfreude?
Leisha C: "Just because something has been around since the beginning of time doesn't make it right. Murder has too, and it's still against the law, last I checked. The sex drive is an urge, much like the urge to go to the restroom. Children learn to control that urge, and can learn to control the urge to have sex. Being celebate until age 25 or 30 is not unreasonable if children are taught the value of waiting"

So now the So Cons compare premarital sex to murder, and want to make it illegal?

She also compares having sex to taking a dump. Methinks this lady has some serious issues! (Leisha, when you say they control that urge, are you suggesting not taking a crap until they're 30? Boy, talk about prying a bug out of your arse!)

With these peoples' attitudes about sex, I can't see them having much. So, the question that begs to be answered is, why are they so obsessed with trying to ruin it for everyone else?

Mary C.
____________________________________________

You should see the original
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3dHgIrvIE&feature=related

The second interview cut out the parts where he really made a fool of her (mostly in the second half). She was coming on all schoolmarm and he wasn't having _any_ of it.

I caught this by accident. The program follows the news and I'd forgotten about the TV. Then I heard this. It would be hilarious, if so many kids didn't think this was cool.

There are rumors that the Victoria police are going to fine the parents, AU$20K (~US$18K). Bzzt. Take it out this brat's pocket money for the next ten years!

Continued
"
Used incorrectly, outside marriage, it destroys hope, it destroys dreams, and it ruins the future. Extra-marital sex ruins individuals' futures by destroying the participants' capability for forming permanent bonds through the accumulation of emotional scar tissue due to the continual formation and tearing up of successive relationships. AND, on a larger level, it ruins the future by bringing forth children who are more likely to become either parasites on society through welfare dependency or predators on society as criminals."
Keeping virginity for too long also creates emotional scar tissue. Imagine how a thirty-year-old man would feel about himself if he were a virgin and everyone that he knows has had sex, even people younger than him.

Responsibility
"How dare anyone suggest that society would benefit if people acted responsibly and exercised self-control? "
You mean like using condoms and birth control pills during sex, or putting on a seat belt when riding in a car?
"Of course every word they say is suspect -- they wouldn't have fresh meat to satisfy their lusts if teens were taught that marriage is the only correct place for sex."
Teens should be taught that ALMs is the absolutely effective method of avoiding pregnancy. Keep in mind that unplanned pregnancies are easier to deal with at higher ages.

And post-menopausal women (the "m" in alms) have no need to fear unwanted pregnancy. For almost all of them, the value of abstinence is negative.
"
Who has the welfare of our young people and our society at heart? The ones who would put teens on the path of lifelong happiness as responsible adults in a committed partnership or the ones who encourage them to act like animals in a permanent state of sterile rut?"
I have their welfare at heart.

I want young people to conform to the values of their peers and the values of society at large. Conformity is more important than sexual pleasure or avoiding pregnancy.
"
Advocates of abstinence until marriage are not against sex. Advocates of abstinence until marriage believe that sex is a wonderful, desirable thing. A thing *so critically important* and *so intensely powerful* that it should never be tossed around casually, carelessly, and thoughtlessly. "
Indeed, sex has the function of bonding with an individual, humanity at large, or both.

Western Bondbeam
So birth control kills children?

Why does the abstinence advocacy movement depend on lies?

Chronic Abstinence
"I for one will tell my children (male and female both) that there is no shame in virginity. They are not a loser or weirdo and certainly not a failure (if anything they are a success) and by all means no less of a man. Ask any woman anywhere and my guess is they will tell you that manhood does not rise or fall on a his virginity or lack of. My guess is all of the symptoms you describe have nothing to do with virginity but more on your self esteem. A person's conviction should be their strength not their weakness."
What kind of conviction is failing to have sex?

It is no more an accomplishment than chronic joblessness.

Hillary to the Rescue !

Just think of the sight of "President" Hillary on the Nightly News...

That'll knock out any thoughts of sex :)

The sanctimony!
"It is not opinion."

Oh no? Then it must be a demonstrable fact. Go ahead and demonstrate.

"Reserving sex until marriage has been the standard held up by every successful society/culture..."

Rubbish. Some societies arrange their marriages and require female virginity only as a mark of possession, just like some people won't buy used clothes.

Xian history is replete with prominent figures who married for power, and had sex with whomever they liked.

"and the teaching of every major religion throughout history."

Buddhism? Confucianism? Hinduism? Ever hear of tantric sex? Certainly, there are myriad advantages to stable marriages, and those I list certainly encouraged marriage _as a social arrangement to bring up children_. Sex is a wholly different matter.


"Sex outside marriage is always wrong. Period."

No it's not.

"If a person afflicted by homosexual desires is unable to find a cure through prayer and counseling then he or she, like a person afflicted by alcoholism or drug addiction, is obligated to abstain from acting on his/her immoral urges."

It's not an "affliction" nor is there a "cure," least of all through prayer.

Sure! Because Mother of 4 believes sex outside marriage is wrong, gay people should be prohibited from enjoying a rewarding relationship. Incredible.

"Being "gay" is no more a legitimate "alternative lifestyle" for a person afflicted with homosexual urges than getting drunk or high every night and sleeping with any guy who would buy her a bottle was a legitimate "alternative lifestyle" for a dear friend of mine who is now a clean drug addict and sober alcoholic."

Good for your friend. But you're still wrong.

Margaret Thatcher
It is not opinion.

Reserving sex until marriage has been the standard held up by every successful society/culture and the teaching of every major religion throughout history.

Sex outside marriage is always wrong. Period.

If a person afflicted by homosexual desires is unable to find a cure through prayer and counseling then he or she, like a person afflicted by alcoholism or drug addiction, is obligated to abstain from acting on his/her immoral urges.

Being "gay" is no more a legitimate "alternative lifestyle" for a person afflicted with homosexual urges than getting drunk or high every night and sleeping with any guy who would buy her a bottle was a legitimate "alternative lifestyle" for a dear friend of mine who is now a clean drug addict and sober alcoholic.

I have no illusions that its easy. But as I said in my first post on this blog, who said life was supposed to be easy?

for Denyse O'Leary
Denyse O'Leary writes: "Would the same person suggest that teens smoke as long as they 'don't inhale'?"

We *do* tell teens that "If you do drink, don't drive--get a designated driver to drive you home."

So it is a two part message: We tell teens not to drink--but *IF* they still do, then *PLEASE* don't get behind the wheel of their car!

Wouldn't you at least tell your kids that? Rather than just "Don't drink!" What if they do drink? Don't you at least want them to stay off the highway in that case?

for Independent Thinker
Independent Thinker claims: "The years between the Roaring Twenties and the cultural revolution of the late sixties were marked by low rates of sex amoung teens, particularly girls. "

Maybe they were in YOUR neighborhood, but not where my family lived.

My mom was a teenager during the Great Depression, living in the slums of the Lower East Side of New York and Brooklyn. And she told me that in her JUNIOR high school class, MOST of her female classmates had already "been in the back seat of a car with a boy" before they graduated. The only ones who hadn't were the ones who were devoutly religious, like my own mom.

And in the 1950s and 1960s, when I was a kid, my parents were always snickering about some of their unmarried friends "going to a motel." In fact, that was what made the then newfangled motels so popular in the 1950s to begin with: You could drive around to the back of the motel and sneak into the room with your honey, without having to walk through a hotel lobby and get noticed by somebody. Are you old enough to remember those years? Remember driving on the road in your Buick Roadmaster, past motels advertising that they rented by the night, or even by the hour?

"Going to a motel" became the 1950s euphemism for having sex with someone you're not married to.

The answer is NO. Abstinence is a Sin.
The Bible says in 1 Cor. 7 that abstinence is okay but not abstaining is better. Who is Rebecca Hagelin to condemn the Will of God by saying not abstaining is immoral?

State laws persecute teenagers who have premarital sex. You don't like having to read every single detail on the sex offender registries to find the real predators. You don't like being alienated for pursuing happiness as if you are doing something society cannot accept.

Believe me, society does it all the time.

People are responsible and willing to accept the consequences of their actions. They just want to be together.

Nobody jails people for abstinence. Nobody threatens to jail people for marrying. Nobody alienates or stigmatizes people for waiting until marriage, or puts their face on government watch lists.

So it is utterly confrontational and insensitive to the oppressed to support abstinence education, the idea, or to accept those who support this. There's no virgin victim.

Support America. Support America in Iraq. Support your children, because they are all you have.

Jack
Its the people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of right and wrong who are deficient in moral reasoning.

This does not excuse them from the responsibility to choose the right.

Margaret Thatcher
In addition to being an insult to the honored name you've chosen to wear you have got to be completely out of your tree. Do you think I found my 4 kids out in the cabbage patch? Do you think the stork got really fond of my address?

To quote what I've posted on other threads:

Advocates of abstinence until marriage are not against sex. Advocates of abstinence until marriage believe that sex is a wonderful, desirable thing. A thing *so critically important* and *so intensely powerful* that it should never be tossed around casually, carelessly, and thoughtlessly.

Sex is dynamite. Like dynamite it can create or destroy. Used correctly, between a married couple, sex creates a permanent bond of physical, mental, and spiritual unity. And it sets the stage for nothing less than the future of humankind in that children raised in an intact family with their OWN parents jointly engaged in the endeavor of raising them into productive citizens do better by every measure of success.

Used incorrectly, outside marriage, it destroys hope, it destroys dreams, and it ruins the future. Extra-marital sex ruins individuals' futures by destroying the participants' capability for forming permanent bonds through the accumulation of emotional scar tissue due to the continual formation and tearing up of successive relationships. AND, on a larger level, it ruins the future by bringing forth children who are more likely to become either parasites on society through welfare dependency or predators on society as criminals.

Advocates of abstinence education do not "demonize sex". Those who reduce sex to nothing more than the pleasure involved in rubbing appropriate body parts against each other degrade sex, devalue sex, and, as a consequence, degrade and devalue the unfortunate kids who end up paying the price for those comfortable lies.

Jack and Margaret Thatcher
Bravo to you both.

You both are in a state of reality and a few others here live in a sealed box.

I have no children, and I have had premarital sex, like 95% of the population has. I fondly remember my great times and there were a couple moments I could've lived without.

Teenagers of today are much more advanced than we were, and in my opinion, they are highly sexualized. I was considered a loose girl at 16 for having a hickey on my neck. Today, if you're not doing the football team and their sisters, you're a prude and uncool.

That being said, there needs to be better sexual education, and not just the fundamentals of condoms on cucumbers.

I feel teaching abstinence is just as important, but I look at it realistically. People will have sex before marriage, you and I know this.

What I wish I was taught as a girl in school in regards to abstinence is what these guys really wanted from me, that they truly didn't love me, and that I was being more than likely being used. Also to learn to have self confidence to say No if I wasn't sure, and not to cave in if I didn't want to. Basically, a class of Abstinence: The A-Z of why it's okay to say no.

There were times I wished I said No, but I didn't. There were times I was glad as heck to say YES YES YES! So, I think there needs to be a happy medium to teach these kids that it's ok not to cave in, but if you are, this is how you deal.

abortion and teen births
If I recall yesterdays sex column was citing research that showed abortions declining. Today the sex column is that the rate of teens giving birth is up. And it is all because abstinence is not being taught. I really doubt a teacher standing and lecturing on abstinence is going to change any teens mind about having sex. As soon as the 20 minute lecture is over they leave school go to the local store with magazines plastered sexy barely clad women, in ads to hollywood articles, they go home to and flip on the TV and catch a rerun of FRIENDS whose boring theme is who is having sex with whom, then go on the computer and visit their MySpace contacts again decorated with young girls scantily clad and sexy poses just like the magazines. Then they get on the cell phone to chat with their friends about which friend is sleeping with whom.

That should total about 8 hours of saturation with sex compared to a 20 minute lecture. It is the Parents and Church's job to teach abstinence, and a Science/health teacher job to teach human anatomy a caring for their bodies.

if they aren't getting the message at home where there are parents who jobs are to guide and protect their children, the public school with classes of 40 kids per room sure isn't going to instill restraint.

The author of this column needs to face reality.


That old time religion
Teaches that people should wait until they are united in the eyes of almighty God (aka marriage) before engaging in sezual intercourse.

How unenlightened is that?

Carol, Yes and No
The comments about M of 4's kids might be interpreted as snarky, but I don't think they are. A lot of people are really good at spouting off self righteously about what other people should do and think. Then, when they have to face their own involvement in something, they suddenly develop a different attitude.

It's legit to suggest that someone with M of 4's attitude would face a real problem should one of her kids turn out to be more typical. And then, having pasted teh abstinence sticker on her kids forehead, she'd have to wonder whether she made a big mistake.


WB
The statistics actually are pretty convincing. AO programs do not do any better than A+ programs in terms of cutting down on pre-marital sex, though they do result in fewer of those who have sex taking adequate precautions.

Judging Right and Wrong

Perhaps the greatest problem with your claim that
humans are obligated to make those moral judgements is that you have NO intention of letting that happen. You would prefer to make those judgements FOR me and then just tell me what I am supposed to think.

You are also opposed to letting young people make those judgements as well, preferring to keep secret the information they might need to make those judgements and simply tell them what to think.

Actually, I have been studying the process of moral decision making for 20 years. Most people are like you, having confused moral decision making with adherence to a simplistic moral "code".

Margaret Thatcher
I am not sure the statistics are clear enough or conclusive as to make the judgement one way or the other as far as which program works best for society. Again I take the sex education process on myself as parents should be doing, and the state program whatever it is they are advocating would be supplimental at best.

Margaret
I took Mother of 4's comments to mean that she places great value on sex - that it is supposed to have great meaning (emotionally, mentally, spiritually), not just physically as with animals.

Your hope that she doesn't run into any surprises with her kids smacks of mean-spirited b----iness.

WB
I don't disagree at all. I did not rely in any way on either the drug educaiton or sex education component of my children's lives. But I am also forced to recognize that sex education is probably a pretty valuable process overall.

I don't care what adults do...
but every day high school girls come to me to talk about the disastrous emotional consequences of early sexual activity. I remained a virgin til 21, and wish I'd held out longer. Don't get me wrong, I love sex and I'm good at it, but sex outside of marriage is emotionally damaging. At the time I would have screamed "no, it doesn't!" But as I look back now, I can see the destructive path I was on. I have been abstinent by choice for a few years now, and I look forward to the day when I once again share myself with my husband. There's nothing wrong with promoting the "ideal" of waiting til marriage, even when you know everyone won't make it. If we can keep even a few kids from having to deal with premature heartbreak, abstinence education is worth it.

Jack
One of the main differences between humans and animals is that humans are capable of judging between what is right and what is wrong.

Being capable of making this decision makes that decision obligatory, not optional. You don't get to weasel out of making moral decisions by citing nature. Animals may have no choice but to mate and breed when their hormones insist, but humans are NOT animals.

To say that a teen girl is no more capable of choosing her actions than a b-tch in heat or that a teen boy can no more choose whether or not to unzip his pants than a buck in rut is to degrade and devalue everything that being human means.

Jack
Apologies to you as well. Went off track with the abortion comment.

I for one do not hold any stock in what the education system teaches my children on sexualtity. AO or A+ or whatever. I take that responsibility on myself and let the chips fall where they may. I for one though am not going to pretend that premarital sex does not or can not have consequences to those involved because reality tells me otherwise.

Self-Serving Libertines
The self-serving libertines are certainly out in force today.

How dare anyone suggest that society would benefit if people acted responsibly and exercised self-control?

Of course every word they say is suspect -- they wouldn't have fresh meat to satisfy their lusts if teens were taught that marriage is the only correct place for sex.

Who has the welfare of our young people and our society at heart? The ones who would put teens on the path of lifelong happiness as responsible adults in a committed partnership or the ones who encourage them to act like animals in a permanent state of sterile rut?

Reducing human beings to mindless slaves of their hormones is disgusting and degrading. We who aim for the highest things may not always reach the sky, but we WILL end up better off than those who aim at the gutter.

Margaret Thatcher: Please forgive.
I was clearly wrong in my assumption. Please forgive me and for the post to Jack as well. Hate the lapse of time between posts but even so there is no excuse for jumping to that conclusion. Thank-you for clearing it up and setting me straight.

WB
Are you daft?

She said she got birth control from Planned Parenthood, not an abortion.

Your comments are well taken though. Seeing as the data indicate abstinence only programming does NOT affect whether people have sexual relations but might be increasing the pregnancy rate, I would think you'd be trying to get rid of AO systems.

Mother of 4
You said something really interesting.

"Non-reproductive mating is a complete oxymoron in the natural world and you claim to object to abstinence because its "unnatural"?

This is, in fact, ludicrously untrue. No other species,to my knowledge, is aware that sexual relations result in pregnacy. For every other species in the world, mating and reproduction have no connection in terms of awareness.

What is natural is the urge to mate.

You also keep bringing up the issue of right and wrong. In the first place, your personal opinions on right and wrong are nothing more than...personal opinions. However, the point is moot because people are going to do this whether or not it's right or wrong. Because it is what nature has intended people to do.

And finally, if you wish to push for a national effort to curb pre-marital sex on the basis of morality, feel free. I am just here to tell you that it will not work because it runs counter to human nature. What I want from my sex educationa system is an effort to do something effective, not, like you, something that massages my self righteousness.




Margaret Thatcher
"Birth control - greatest invention since the wheel."

"If and when I have a teenage daughter . . "

Well, madam, that says it all. I have a teenage daughter. She has severe acne and has recently started taking medication for it. She is very embarrassed by her acne and desperately wants it gone. So, you'd think she'd be on top of the meds, right? No, I have to remind and nag her morning and night about taking the antibiotic and using the face cream. So, tell me, Maggie, what makes you think a teenage girl is going to remember to take a BC pill every day or that a teenage boy is going to "remember" to use a condom every time?

Planned Parenthood has absolutely no interest whatsoever in reducing teen pregnancies - abortions are its #1 money machine.

I also had "alot of fun" in my younger years. I regret it bitterly, and I don't want my daughter to go down the same path. I want better for her - because I love her and have her best interests at heart.

Margaret Thatcher
"THANK GOD FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD!

They have my eternal gratitude for the birth control they provided, those angels of mercy!"

We are all so proud of you. Nice Job. I am sure your dead baby feels the same way too.

Phileo Non Logicus
You keep saying "there is no such thing as safe sex outside marriage", as if repetition will somehow make sense of an absurdity.

"Safe" is a relative term. Sex outside marriage is safer than having a gun in your house, driving a car, flying on an airplane, eating steak, drinking beer, climbing on ladders, and/or standing up in the bathtub. Yet, I predict, you have done most or all these things. And all were avoidable.


dbz77
"Why bother practicing abstinence past childhood? Why bother with the feelings of shame, rage, frustration, isolation, alienation, inadequacy, despair, depression, and suicide that comes along with being an adult virgin? Why bother dealing with other people feeling that you are a freak, a weirdo, a loser, a failure, (if a male) less of a man than other men"

WOW. Please forgive me for offending you.

I for one will tell my children (male and female both) that there is no shame in virginity. They are not a loser or weirdo and certainly not a failure (if anything they are a success) and by all means no less of a man. Ask any woman anywhere and my guess is they will tell you that manhood does not rise or fall on a his virginity or lack of. My guess is all of the symptoms you describe have nothing to do with virginity but more on your self esteem. A person's conviction should be their strength not their weakness.

dbz77
You are probably right that the correct moral is no sex until adulthood. But it is hard to think of an approach that is less likely to work than to tell teenagers that they should not have sex because they are not as mature as adults yet.

only vs plus
It is a rather misleading column. After all, the current debate is between what are called "abstinence only" programs and what are called "abstinence plus" programs. All of the things she refers to as proof of the value of abstinence only education seem more likely to be the results of abstinence plus programs. After all, the abstinence only programs got their boost in the Bush years, and as Hagelin notes, that is the period when the declines in teen pregnancy began to flatten, and now rise.

The 90's when abstinence plus programs had the most push behind them, we had the steady decline that Hagelin points to.

Abstinence only programs only make sense if one thinks it is more important for schools to teach morality than it is to try to decrease the rate of teen pregnancies (and by extension abortions). If you think it is more important to decrease the unwanted pregancy and abortion rates then it is better to favor the abstinence plus programs.

Phileo
"
By the way, Maggie, my wife and I were both over thirty when we married. Our first sexual encounter was on our wedding night. It was kind of cool that we were both awkward and nervous - and that we had a lifetime to figure it out TOGETHER.

I think my wife is the greatest lover in the world. She thinks I'm a stud. And you can't convince either of us that we're wrong.

"Abstinence been behrdy-behrdy good to me!!" :)"
If that was what got your rocks off, great.

But if you tell people that your way is the ONLY way, expect ridicule from others.

Phileo
"Ms. Hagelin's article is addressing sex ed. programs for children as young as eight years old. "
So why bother mentioning marriage.

Just tell the little kids that sex is for grown-ups.

Phileo
In answer to your questions.

Pre-marital sex is situational. Sometimes good; sometimes bad.

Premarital sex can be either moral or immoral, depending on teh circumstance and people involved. (For example, I knew 59 year old, never married neuro-surgeon who married a 60 year old English professor. She was quite capable of making that decision without having to reference to your moral code.)

What message we send depends on who we are sending it to. Among other things it shoudl incllude "here's how it works; here are the physical, emotional, and financial ramifications; here is how you can avoid pregnancy if you decide to have sex.

Maggie, to answer your question;
Margaret Thatcher writes: "What is the 'rational' reason to tell young people they should not have sex until marriage?"

answer:

"There is no safe sex outside of marriage."

Abstinence will more generally ensure one's physical, emotional and spiritual well-being than a life with multiple sexual partners.

By the way, Maggie, my wife and I were both over thirty when we married. Our first sexual encounter was on our wedding night. It was kind of cool that we were both awkward and nervous - and that we had a lifetime to figure it out TOGETHER.

I think my wife is the greatest lover in the world. She thinks I'm a stud. And you can't convince either of us that we're wrong.

"Abstinence been behrdy-behrdy good to me!!" :)

Western Bondbeam
Every woman my age (30) that I know has had sex before marriage.

NONE of them have suffered because of it. And even if they did, it is better than if they were still virgins at 30.

Why bother practicing abstinence past childhood? Why bother with the feelings of shame, rage, frustration, isolation, alienation, inadequacy, despair, depression, and suicide that comes along with being an adult virgin? Why bother dealing with other people feeling that you are a freak, a weirdo, a loser, a failure, (if a male) less of a man than other men?

Virginity has its price, and it is a price too high to pay.

Phileo- Average Age of Marriage
"
If the safety of our children were the real issue, there would be only one message: "Save sex for your wedding night and stay faithful to your spouse for the rest of your life. You will never have to worry about STD's and if you really love each other, you'll never have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.""
The average age of marriage is TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS. It is absolutely unrealistic to expect people to even WANT to wait that long.

Keep the Fire in the Fireplace.
Sex is like fire. In the oonfines of marriage sex is a beautiful thing (like fire in a fireplace) Marriage has committment and responsibility tied to it.

Now sex outside of marraige (adultery, premarital sex etc...) has all kinds of consequences tied to it. It's like building the fire on the couch in the living room istead of in the fireplace...not so beautiful and huge consequences.

We teach our children not to play with fire, shoudln't we teach them not to play with sex.
I for one will teach my children to keep the fire in the fireplace.


Margaret & dbz77, juvenile twenties
Ms. Hagelin's article is addressing sex ed. programs for children as young as eight years old. Most twenty-somethings are not children (the ones who haven't grown up are obsessed with getting laid - the rest are adults).

Mother of 4- Same Old, Same Old
You keep preaching a message that normal America has been rejecting for decades now.

Phileo
"
What are the rational reasons for eleven year-olds to engage in sex... or fifteen year-olds?
"
They can wait until they grow up.

Maybe you should support a message of abstinence until adulthood.

Doesn't matter
Jack writes: "It ain't gonna happen. It is decidedly unnatural."

Sky daddy said so.

dbz irrational 77
dbz77 writes: "There are rational reasons to engage in sex."

What are the rational reasons for eleven year-olds to engage in sex... or fifteen year-olds?

"There is no safe sex outside of marriage." (repitition is the law of learning)

dbz77 -- Same Old, Same Old
Same old, same old again. When are you going to get a life?

You've made it plain over and over that your sole interest in promoting sexual license is the hope that someday you might meet a girl whose standards have been lowered so far that she'll sleep with you.

*rolls eyes*

Phileo
People in their twenties are not children.

By the way, there is no safe driving PERIOD.

Margaret Thatcher, let's have some fun
Margaret Thatcher writes: "... I had alot of fun in my twenties!"

If we want children to have fun, they would be better served if we sent them to Disney World.

Rational Beings
"
Humans are not mere animals whose instincts force them to begin to mate as soon as they've achieved biological maturity. Humans are rational beings capable of making moral judgments and of aligning their actions in accordance. "
Yes, we are rational beings.

One of the things rational beings do is conform to the practices around them.

Another thing they do is to take actions to avoid a negative image, such as the image of a freak, a weirdo, a loser, a failure, and (for males) less of a man than other men.

There are rational reasons to engage in sex.

The "goal" of sex ed is SUPPOSED to be -
The "goal" of sex ed is SUPPOSED to be "safe sex". If the goal were morality training, the abstinence message and the condom/birth control/abortion message are all problematic. Since the goal is "safe sex", abstinence is the only message.

"There is no safe sex outside of marriage."

Mother of 4-Hello?
"B. This reinforces the need for society to return to a uniform endorsement of abstinence until marriage and a uniform condemnation of extra-marital sex."
Hello?

EVERYONE is doing it.

EVERY woman my age (30) has had sex. Of every woman my age that I know, NONE are virgins.

Back in May of 2002, Philip d. Harvey wrote an article in the Washington Post titled "Adulthood Without Sex". Here are some excerpts.

"The abstinence-only sex education programs in our public schools call for "abstinence until marriage." The federal government spent $115 million on this message last year, and the Bush administration is proposing significant increases for the current year. Sexual abstinence until marriage is now official government policy.

The average age of marriage in the United States today is 27 for men and 26 for women. The abstinence-only program therefore asks our young people to renounce sexual activity throughout much of the early part of adult life."

""It is wrong to expect young people to be sexually abstinent until they are more than half way through their twenties."

Normal America rejects abstinence-until-marriage just as it rejects same-sex marriage.

A Few Facts
The three absolutely effective methods of birth controls is ALMs - abstinence, lesbianism, and menopause. Obviously, menopause does not apply to teenage girls.

Abstinence education is a huge failure.

http://groups.google.com/group/tx.politics/msg/93e4e03a02b1 6bae?dmode=source

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/19/national/main2282 940.shtml

"More than nine out of 10 Americans, men and women alike, have had premarital sex, according to a new study. The high rates extend even to women born in the 1940s, challenging perceptions that people were more chaste in the past."

Dang, Mother of 4
I wish I were as eloquent as you are!

Jack
Who says extramarital sex is natural? Whether you think it's right or wrong is not the point. The point I was trying to make with the analogy of the restroom urge was that we learn to control the urge and go when and where it is appropriate. Of course you can't hold your water for 12 years, that IS unnatural. But, teaching children the value of waiting and expressing those sexual urges when and where appropriate (within marriate) is not unreasonable. Just because you don't have the self-control to do it doesn't mean others can't.

One more time, Jack
So what if "culture" has changed? That is, in fact, the precise problem.

Humans are not mere animals whose instincts force them to begin to mate as soon as they've achieved biological maturity. Humans are rational beings capable of making moral judgments and of aligning their actions in accordance.

Thus humans are perfectly capable of refraining from mating until the circumstances are correct.

The idea that anything that is "natural" must be right and that if "celibacy" (which is not identical to abstinence), is "unnatural" it must be wrong is ridiculous. In fact, the cultural changes you claim we must yield to are due only to something utterly unnatural -- effective birth control.

Non-reproductive mating is a complete oxymoron in the natural world and you claim to object to abstinence because its "unnatural"?

The promotion of abstinence until marriage as the sole message of a unified society is the ONLY thing that will actually prevent teen pregnancy. It worked on smoking. It worked on drinking and driving. It would work on teen sex -- except for resistance from people who are more intent on justifying their own morals-free pursuit of hedonistic pleasure than on doing what is actually good for the teens.

Jack missing the whole point
Please answer some questions, Jack:

1. Is premarital sex good or bad?

2. Is premarital sex moral or immoral?

3. What message should we be sending to primary and secondary school-age children?

"There is no safe sex outside of marriage."

That is an irrefutable fact.

Here's Another
http://cilas.ucsd.edu/publications/PHWomen.pdf

Indicates teh illegitimacy rate in Spanish Colonial America was about 40%

Ok IT, Here Ya go

Before we get into a discussion about actual data, I want to know whether data will make any difference to you. In other words, If I can provide substantial data which suggests that pre-marital sex was common throughout American Hisotry, will you change your mind?

If not, then there is no point.

But, as a starting point, the following study reports that "Among women born in the 1940s, nearly nine in 10" had premartial sex.

http://www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/122_1/12_PHR12 2-1_73-78.pdf





Jack
No it's you who are dreaming--more like wishful thinking to try and prove your point--but you are so wrong.
Just because you grew up in a promiscuous society doesn't mean it was ALWAYS like what you've seen and experienced. You can't judge every era throughout history by the present or even the last fifty years and say "it's always been like this."

And citing statistics:
1. Without citing the time period
2. Citing adult (18-44) behavior in a discussion on teen sex
both go to show just how little there is to your argument.

IT

Right. Right. Only the drop-outs and the losers had sex. You are dreaming. Pre and extra marital sex have been around, in large numbers, since the beginning of time.

For example, one major national study revealed that 95% of all married folks ages 18-44 had sex before marriage. The dat ais out there: stop relying on your fantasies




Jack
You are out of your mind quoting statistics out of thin air.
I remember at time when teen pregnancies were less than 5%, and I went through my entire high school years without any in our high school.
Granted I knew a number of girls who had sex, and some who got pregnant in their teens, but these were either school dropouts, or had a steady boyfriend that they fully intended to marry in a short time.
The years between the Roaring Twenties and the cultural revolution of the late sixties were marked by low rates of sex amoung teens, particularly girls. The main reason was the stigma attached to a girl who had sex. They were ostracized not only by other girls among their peer group, but looked upon as loose and sluts, and good for nothing more than easy lays by the boys.

LeishaC
Please read what I wrote. I did not claim anythign was right, or worng. I claimed extramarital sex is natural and extended celibacy is not natural.

Your anlaogy is pretty fascinating. I will accept that the sex drive is like the need to pee, a natural urge. And yes, we can control that urge.

But I challenge you to hold your pee for 12 years

Mother of 4

I am confused as to why you responded to my explanation of the unnatural nature of celibacy for over a decade with a rant about evil and so forth. It has nothing to do with evil and everything to do with what works and what doesn't work.

If your reasoning for why we shouldl have abstinence only education is that extra marital sex is wicked, then you should reasonably just bow out of the discussion, because we are discussing what works in preventing teen pregnancy.

This is especially the case if you really believe what you wrote, i.e. "The social acceptance of extra-marital sex is WHY marriages are being delayed well past the optimal age in today's society". This claim has no objective support of which I am aware , ignores the vast changes in the culture outside of sexual behavior, and only goes to show that wishful thinking and personal beliefs ought not be the basis for national policy.

No such thing as safe sex...
There's no such thing as safe sex outside of marriage. The only SAFE sex happens in the context of exclusive monogamy within a marriage.

If the safety of our children were the real issue, there would be only one message: "Save sex for your wedding night and stay faithful to your spouse for the rest of your life. You will never have to worry about STD's and if you really love each other, you'll never have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy."

Sadly, the safety of our children is NOT the issue.

Two Things I Wish I Had Been Taught...
I wish someone would have explained to me that it was okay to NOT have a girlfriend. I also wish someone had explained to me that preventing a conception and preventing disease transmission doesn't eliminate all "negative" consequences of fornication. Instead, in school, we were taught how things worked and how to use contraception and "protection", and made to feel like freaks if we weren't getting it on.

Jack -- So what? again,
Evil and wrongdoing have been with us since Eve bit into the apple. That doesn't make extra-marital sex right any more than Cain slaying Abel made murder right.

The social acceptance of extra-marital sex is WHY marriages are being delayed well past the optimal age in today's society. People wouldn't need to wait so long to have sex (not that they couldn't, because they CAN), if they weren't so caught up in irresponsible, selfish pleasure-seeking and got married in the more historically normal and biologically appropriate 18-25 range.

And yes, a high school graduate of 18 OUGHT to be able to make such a lifelong commitment because he/she is an ADULT. Even more so if, as a society, we ditched this stupid extended-adolescence where 30yo's can get away with acting like teens and required grown-ups to bear the responsibilities of being grown-up.

Alternately, we could raise the driving age to 25, the voting age to 30, and the drinking age to 35 in order to reflect the change in social perception of when a person is ready to assume adult responsibilities.

Not that your response had the faintest relationship to what I actually said about how teaching/providing contraception is teaching teens that they should be having sex.

If I had my way
We'd be calling adults to maturity on a variety of levels. No more societal enabling and excuse making for personal choices and their results. This, of course, cannot happen, but it is the answer to minimize/ contain many if not most of our social problems, including teen pregnancy.

Solutions do not come from programs-
nor do they come from proclamations, curriculums, condoms, slogans, mantras, distractions, movements, etc... The best approach to dealing with any risky behavior in teens is to be approachable, safe, and mature adults in their lives. Its all about the relationship and how secure a kid feels in opening up to adults. Its more difficult for kids who have experienced decidedly untrustworthy adults.

It is difficult to find support for teens who come from less than ideal to downright horrific home lives. Many church groups put a hefty emphasis on behaviors ans appearances right away instead of receiving kids and helping them to reveal their pain through patience and acceptance (I had a kid told he had to take out his piercings before attending a youth event). Counseling programs tend to have a 3-6 session, cost effective, behavioral-cognitive problem solving approach to addressing that which can only be touched within a safe relationship. Classroom work is psycho-educational information; which can be like throwing seed on cement. Kids who are emotionally intact will likely absorb and integrate the info, the kids who have holes in their souls often cannot.

An aside- teen pregnancy statistics include the rise in immigrant teens who come from cultures where it is incumbent upon teens to procreate. We are seeing an increase in teen pregnancy largely because of the increase in illegal immigration.

Jack
Just because something has been around since the beginning of time doesn't make it right. Murder has too, and it's still against the law, last I checked. The sex drive is an urge, much like the urge to go to the restroom. Children learn to control that urge, and can learn to control the urge to have sex. Being celebate until age 25 or 30 is not unreasonable if children are taught the value of waiting.

Absurd Idea
Mother of 4

I am a father of 4, nice to meet ya.

First off, sex outside marriage has been with us in a big way since the beginning of civilization. It's not like it is a new phenomenon. The number of conceptions outside marriage in America has never been less than 10% and has generally been around 30%. And that doesn't include those who had sex but did NOT conceive.

More importantly, as has been explained here many times, the idea of abstinence until marriage began when the difference between the menarche and marriage was a few years, often less. Now, you are asking women to be celibate from the age of 12 to the age of 25 and men to be celibate from 12 to 27. It ain't gonna happen. It is decidedly unnatural.


Jack
Making contraceptives available to teens and teaching teen how to use contraception IS advocating teen sex.

Its just as if "drug eduction" taught everything there was to know about street drugs including how to roll a joint and where to find the best veins for shooting up while including a passing reference to the concept that getting high on illegal drugs might not be a good idea.

LeishaC
Exactly.

If society actually put the same effort into abstinence promotion as they put into anti-smoking and anti-drunk driving programs too many morally slack adults would have to face their own shortcomings and the fact that their bad decisions have affected many innocent people.

So?
“It’s difficult to really be abstinent until marriage because it’s a lot of different things pulling at you when you’re a teenager.”

So?

A. Who said life was supposed to be easy?

B. This reinforces the need for society to return to a uniform endorsement of abstinence until marriage and a uniform condemnation of extra-marital sex.

Hagelin is a Flat out Liar
Even by the standards of Townhall and the conservative movement, Hagelin's article is despicable. She posts a quote which specifically targets abstinence ONLY programs and then attacks it with statistics beased on abstinence AND contraception.

Virtually NO ONE is arguing that abstinence should not be presented to teenagers. Yet she clearly implies that those who oppose abstinence only education oppose any reference to abstinence. I am shocked at the level of dishonesty in such a presentation.

Denyse O'leary then amplifies the fraud: "But it is UNreasonable to argue that teens should be having sex "as long as they take precautions"".
The number of sex educators who make such an argument is eitehr non-existenet or minuscule. Basically, no on is arguing that teens SHOULD have sex.

Like I said, even for TH, this is despicable







We sure fixed the teen smoking problem..
by demonizing tobacco and making it uncool, didn't we? Why does everyone think that convincing teens to be abstinent would be any different? Perhaps it's because adults would have to confront their own stupid sexual behavior. It always amazes me that parents wonder why their children become sexually actve when the parents are running around behaving like rabbits.

Abstinence education
Abstinence education's primary use is to delay the onset of intercourse. Even delaying it by six months or a year justifies the expense. Two years would be better, of course, but many programs may need to be tailored to achieve such results.

Young teens do not have the maturity to make good decisions around questions of health, security, and safety (which, of course, is why we don't let them buy cigarettes, drive cars, or drink in public places).

And that's also the main reason why they shouldn't be having sex.

Traditional Christians like myself believe all sex outside marriage to be morally wrong, but that is a matter about which reasonable citizens disagree.

But it is UNreasonable to argue that teens should be having sex "as long as they take precautions."

Would the same person suggest that teens smoke as long as they "don't inhale"? Do they have a problem with programs that simply discourage teens from smoking and drinking.

For cultural reasons, people who find it easy to admit that teens cannot handle a decision about alcohol or cigarettes hesitate about sex. Sex is of mystical importance to many people, especially non-religious people, and - despite their strenuous claims - they simply do not and cannot approach it in a pragmatic way. If they did, what is obvious to them about smoking snd drinking would be obvious about sex.

The increase in births to teens is probably a direct result of the reduced popularity of abortion, which is in turn partly the result of 4-D ultrasound AND the constant publicity given to celeb pregnancies in the media.

Here's something that groups which are concerned to reduce teen pregnancies might do: Step up criticism of media that glamourize a "love child" lifestyle. It's one thing to be rich, idle, single, and pregnant. It's another to be poor, uneducated, single, and pregnant. And which group is likely to be larger?

Denyse O'Leary
Toronto



Post Holer
By all means...let's go away from teaching the one sure way is abstinance and back to the "feel good lip service" which is then utterly refuted with the logic of you can't help yourselves and we will help you to make poor (easey) decisions...

From the article: Her so-called “solutions”? Birth-control pills. Condoms. Diaphragms. All of which send an unmistakable message to teens: “You have no self-control, and we don’t expect you to. We know you’re going to ‘do it,’ so just make sure you’re ‘safe’ when you do.”

Teach your own kids your morals and get away from mine!


Will this help or hurt GOP in 08?

‘Human Life’ Amendments Latest Challenge to Roe


NPR- Tuesday marks the 35th anniversary of the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision, which legalized abortion. Today, in many state courts, there is a push for “human life” amendments aimed at granting legal status and rights to embryos.

Listen Now

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/human-life-amendme nts-latest-challenge-to-roe


Lies, d**n lies, and Rebecca Hagelin
So to hear Rebecca Hagelin tell it, comprehensive sex education courses do not teach abstinence. That is a lie. Comprehensive sex education has always taught that abstinence is the best option for not getting pregnant and not getting STDs.

What's new is that in 1999 Congress started funding abstinence ONLY programs. Emphasis on ONLY:

"Congress first allocated money for abstinence-only programs in 1999, setting aside $80 million in grants, which go to a variety of religious, civic and medical organizations. To be eligible, groups must limit discussion of contraception to failure rates."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26623-2004De c1.html

"“The factors most strongly related to the decline in teen pregnancies and teen births from 1991 to 1995 were an increase in abstinence and a decline in the percentage of teens who were married."

The complete flat out lie that Rebecca is telling is that abstinence can be credited to the new "abstinence ONLY" programs, when in fact abstinence is taught in every comprehensive sexual education program.

So, how 'bout it Rebecca? How 'bout a little honesty in reporting? How 'bout telling the truth that abstinence is part of every comprehensive sex education program? And that the increase in abstinence cannot be correlated just with Federal funding of abstinence ONLY programs but must also consider that abstinence is part of every comprehensive sex education course.

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