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Friday, January 09, 2009
Rachel Marsden :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Biggest Lies About the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
by Rachel Marsden
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The latest chapter in the conflict between the governments of Israel and Palestine is generating loads of media ink – and huge, whopping lies. Here’s a roundup of the top myths related to this war:

1) Israel launched a preemptive war.

Congressman and former GOP Presidential candidate, Ron Paul, suggested to Press TV – the official propaganda arm of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad – that Israel’s actions were “preemptive”. His logic: Israel has nukes and Hamas doesn’t, so it’s unfair. Look, a war isn’t automatically “preemptive” just because one party was dumb enough to pick a fight it can’t win. I mean, do you want your jihad, or don’t you? This is getting confusing. It also isn’t the first time Rep. Paul has lamented the lack of nuclear power in other Middle Eastern countries. In early 2007, on Fox News, Rep. Paul told me that he didn’t have a problem with Iran possessing nukes. The whole idea of Israel’s nuclear advantage is moot, until Israel nukes Gaza – and they haven’t. If you ask me, the “Zionists” are showing unbelievable restraint.

2) Israel is killing Palestinian civilians.

Press TV says that 25% of deaths in Gaza have been civilian. These terrorists could severely curtail the civilian killing at any time by getting out there and taking their jihad like real men, rather than hiding around women and children like cowards. Hamas’ lack of warfare decorum, and insistence on guerilla tactics when push comes to shove, really isn’t Israel’s problem. Israel is so caring and humane that even in the midst of war, they paused their military efforts to provide civilians with aid.

3) Hamas was just minding its own business.

Besides having fired rockets into Israel to start all of this, Hamas is second only to Iran’s Ahmadinejad – and maybe the odd Al Qaeda member – as the heavyweight trash-talking champion of the world. You’d think that Hamas would have learned a lesson during last year’s Olympics from French swimmer/trash-talker Alain Bernard, right before he was blown out of the water in the 4x100 freestyle relay by Michael Phelps and gang. The only one who ever got away with incessant trash-talk was Muhammad Ali – and that’s because his mouth was writing checks that he was actually capable of cashing. Hamas’ spokesman recently said: “Your incursion to Gaza will not be a picnic, and Gaza will be your cemetery, God willing. You have no choice but to end this aggression and end the siege without any condition. You will not live in peace until our Palestinian people live in peace.” Whatever. I’m sure if Israel was capable of firing a strategic missile right into this guy’s gaping pie hole, the entire world would cheer. Until technology improves, we’ll have to settle for something a bit messier.

3) Iran has nothing to do with this.

While on vacation in Vancouver, BC, I actually heard a local talk-radio host say, “The next thing you know, the USA will link Hamas with Iran!” Actually, Hamas has saved these Leftists the trouble of blowing out a few more brain cells coming up with conspiracy theories, and has already publicly linked itself with Iran. A Sunday Times of London article from last March quotes a senior Hamas commander: ““Iran is our mother. She gives us information, military supplies and financial support.”

4) George Bush just wants war with Iran.

The same radio talk-show host above suggested that Israel’s military incursion into Iran is part of a larger conspiracy by President Bush to attack Iran and steal more oil. Because yeah, it makes total sense that Bush, on his way out of office, would conspire with his close pal Barack Obama to make the government of Israel attack Hamas so Bush can get his hands on more oil in the Middle East. Naturally, the much more simple argument that Hamas visibly fired rockets into Israel and the Israelis got fed up doesn’t make enough sense.

5) Obama is waiting in the wings, and will save the world shortly.

About the only thing on which Al-Qaeda and the GOP have ever agreed is how useless Obama is, and how pathetically he has been propped up by the American media. Ayman al-Zawahiri said in a recent audio message: “This is Obama whom the American machine of lies tried to portray as the rescuer who will change the policy of America. He kills your brothers and sisters in Gaza mercilessly and without affection.” Not only has Obama failed miserably in appealing to psychotic terrorists’ gentler and more reasonable instincts, but he’s also apparently “killing” people before even having taken the oath of office.

6) George Bush has “studiously ignored the whole problem” of Israel vs. Palestine.

Or so says new agey expert turned political analyst, Deepak Chopra, in this week’s San Francisco Chronicle. No mention of the Annapolis Conference that Bush held in November 2007 with representatives of 49 countries to develop a new Israeli-Palestinian peace plan. No mention of Condoleezza Rice’s eight trips to the area that year. But none of this matters, because Chopra – a recognized expert in such things as “self-awareness” - concluded by humbly declaring his own analysis “irrefutable”.

7) America doesn’t give the Palestinians any money.

No country has been as generous with aid to the Palestinians as America. And Bush just gave Palestinian refugees another $85 million through the United Nations. What, you’re whining that America isn’t specifically giving money to the terrorist government Hamas so it can buy better rockets? How about getting that sentiment out of your system by going out and buying your teenager a new Lamborghini so he can promptly tear out of your driveway and wrap it around a pole?

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About The Author
Rachel Marsden is a columnist with Human Events Magazine, and Editor-In-Chief of GrandCentralPolitical News Syndicate.
 
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Israel
is totally innocent in the present conflict, as always.

Marsden needs to seek help.
She is possibly the stupidest columnist on TownHall...and that takes in quite a bit of territory!

She seems to know less about the Middle East than most Americans...who know only what they are fed by our media.

I am not sure what question would stump Rachel the most:

1. Do you walk to work or take a lunch?

2. Is Iran an Arab nation?

So Rachel, what are your guesses?

Other lies seem more uncommon
Most of the claims above are oin fact not true. (With the exception of 2 which is true, but even Marsden is just arguing that the killing is ok).

But it is hard to see these as the main lies since with the exception of the true ones they don't seem to be said a lot.

The debate has largely been about whether the Israeli response is proportional not whether it was preemptive. (I think this is not quite the right argument to be having, but it is very different from the one Marsden is pretending is happening.)

Or the claim that Israel pulled out of Gaza and put their fate in their own hands, which I see repeatedly and ignores Israel's complete control of their borders.

Trying to rewrite history...
http://www.mystudydate.com/pg/blog/Martini/read/1082/the-sh rinking-map-of-palestine

Dissent to Andrew Sullivan's Map History of Jews and Palestine:

Click on the map and you will see supposed quotes of Ben Gurion and others, saying rather nasty things about taking over land from the Palestinians and Arab. But are they true quotes?

A dissenter to Sullivan's post writes:

Of greater concern, are the fabricated quotations appearing below the maps. I'll limit myself to the first one: "We must expel Arabs and take their places." Ephraim Karsh has shown that Ben Gurion actually wrote: "We do not wish, we do not need to expel Arabs and take their place." Note that Karsh is criticizing Benny Morris, who cited Shabtai Teveth, the unattributed author of the work cited by Mr. Lahoud. In a more recent history, Morris has accepted the accuracy of Karsh's translation. (See Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001.)

dudley
How many Israeli citizens have been killed by Hamas rocket attacks? How many Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF in the last few weeks during the offensive in Gaza?

Innocent as always? Hardly.

Let em fight
I say let em rumble a bit longer until all the idiot middle eastern countries jump in (what the heck, let the UN in as well) and watch Israel smash them all to hell. For too long have they been the subject of lies and ridicule that is undeserved.

Akagi
That is about the dumbest argument I hear (though I hear it a lot). So because Hamas doesn't kill enough Jews, they should be safe? What is the magic number of Jews that need to be killed before they are allowed to respond? 6 million?

Here's a thought, nuke gaza.

worked to end WWII in the pacific.

Of course, according to your logic we never should have responded to Japan's attack, because we ended up killing a lot more Japanese than the number of Americans who were killed at Pearl Harbor.

If one side starts a war, they better be prepared to end it or suffer the consequences.

common sense
Several issues require responses. Israel left Gaza in 2005. Yet they are still called occupiers. The country is @ 50 miles long. There is an airport on the border with Egypt. Hamas could have easily imported whatever the people needed to improve their lives using the Egyptian border. Yet, Egypt closed their borders to Gaza as well. Tunnels have been built to smuggle in weapons. Humanitarian aid and food could also be brought in. Yet Hamas has its people live in refugee camps and suffer. Hamas continues to store weapons and ammunition in mosques, homes and schools and fire from those places. Cowards hide behind civilians KNOWING they place them in danger. Yet, Israel - who tries to warn civilians to move - are criticized for the needless loss of life. Fauxtography - it is now known that so many of the news videos and pictures coming to America - and other countries - are faked. This was true in Lebanon and several reports give examples. Palywood exists. CNN has a new "film" which has been judged a phony by medical personal. Several other examples are available. Hamas complains the people need medical help but yet they refused Egypt's offer to take some wounded to their hospitals. Hamas has shot and executed members of Fatah so that they will not be able to help Israel. Americans need to remember Lexington & Concord - the shot heard around the world started our Rev. War. Remember Pearl Harbor, the Maine, the Alamo - all incidents which resulted in wars against those who shot first. Hamas has bombed Israel since 2005. Enough. Hamas is cowardly and have no love or respect for those who live in Gaza. Shame on those who object to a country defending itself. Jews and Arabs have lived in this area for thousands of years. Palistine is a Roman word for the area - not the people who lived there. Jews and Arabs could be considered Palistinians.
Shameful.

Yeah Tom...
...beautiful idea. Give nukes to Islamic nut jobs who'd kill you as soon as anyone else they simply have a religious or ideological disagreement with. Give nukes to people who would not hesitate to use them, while Israel certainly has had them and hasn't fired one off yet.

And do continue to give moral equivalence to Hamas and Israel. You're luminescent genius is blinding.

Unbelievable. This must be the result of the greater proliferation and normalization of drugs in our society.

Excellent article!
It's good to see common sense in print. First I've read of Rachel Marsden, but it won't be the last. At least not when it comes to the middle east. She nailed it, 100% perfect. Not one flaw. The total and unvarnished truth. You gotta love it, unless of course you hate the truth.

And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5

None said
...of tom, "You're luminescent genius is blinding."

Now that's funny. Arguing is so five minutes ago.

..... it is hard for you to kick against the pricks. Acts 26:14

I know how he feels Paul. Give him a break, would ya?

Israel and muslim nations around her
See Zechariah 12:1-11, which prophesies what Israel will do to surrounding nations in the last days and what God will do to nations that
come against Israel!

Bin Laden
"Israel's assault on Gaza has really created an almost unbelievable no-lose situation for al-Qaeda. If Hamas "wins", then al-Qaeda gets to share in the benefits of the political losses incurred by its Western and Arab enemies (Zawahiri mentions Mubarak and the Saudis in this tape, but not the Jordanians) and can try to take advantage of the political upheavals which could follow. If Hamas "loses", al-Qaeda still wins. It will shed no tears at seeing one of its bitterest and most dangerous rivals take a beating at Israel's hands or losing control of a government that they have consistently decried as illegitimate and misguided. Either way, the Gaza crisis guarantees that a far more radicalized Islamic world will face the incoming Obama administration -- potentially severely blunting the challenge which al-Qaeda clearly felt after the election (hence Zawahiri's attempt to pre-emptively discredit Obama by declaring the attack Obama's "gift" to Muslims)."

It Is Incomprehensible That Anyone...
...could ever criticize Israel. Just by virtue of the fact they are an ally of the US means that they must always be on the side of right. The US has only ever acted in there interests of mankind and so obviously logically must Israel. It is obvious that the entire UN has been infiltrated by anti Semites, a fact perfectly illustrated by the rest of the worlds constant condemnations of Israels actions.

Also I would..
..just like to say that having never read Ms Marsdens articles before I was struck by her eloquence and ability to construct a cogent argument based in fact. So called intellectuals like George Will could learn a lot from her.

Akagi
"How many Israeli citizens have been killed by Hamas rocket attacks? How many Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF in the last few weeks during the offensive in Gaza?"

I bet you are the one whose gym shorts got pulled down every day in front of the girls, arent you? Had you done what the Israelis are now doing it would only have happened once. When you buckle under the bullies and say thank you sir, may I have another, you get another. I know that is very deep thinking for a guy like you. If you want to be left alone, you have to get up and shatter the bully's teeth.

There are no innocent lives in Gaza. If they wanted out, they could leave, much as the bully's buddies do when they see you break his nose. They are being warned by the Israelis by phone BEFORE the attack! The loss of lives of women and children is regrettable, but cannot dissuade Israel from doing what needs done.

The trash that lives in Gaza has proven time and again that they will never live at peace with Israel. It is now time to burn the trash, and stop any more rats from breeding in it.

By the way, do you think there might have been poor innocent children living in Sodom or Gamorrah? That didn't stop God from burning those trash dumps either. And pull up your shorts man, have you no dignity?


I seem to be repeating myself today
From my response to the Lopez article:
"Like LouLouise, I have my doubts about the "Cristina" story [a report of a 15 year old "Palestinian" Christian who was killed in Gaza]. But, even if it is true, and heartless as this will make me sound, the bottom line is:

In war, civilians die. Even underage ones.

There have been 20,000 French civilian casualties reported for D-Day (most prominently by Pres. Bush in his 2004 D-day address). That's FRENCH, as in our ostensible ally, and D-DAY, as in one operation of the entire war. Neither FDR nor Eisenhower (to inject some "bipartisanship") let it stop the invasion.

Closer to home: the US blockaded the South and used scorched earth tactics in Sherman's March to the Sea, Grant's Siege of Vicksburg, Sheridan's Shenandoah Valley campaign, etc. Women and children, including the slaves for whom the war was ostensibly being fought, starved. Didn't stop Lincoln.

If you're going to fight a war, you have to fight to win. That means, sometimes, "Cristinas." That's the bottom line."

PS -- to answer some earlier posters, Israel is useful because she brings together the America First German-American Bund nostalgists and the Weather Underground revivalists.

Brad
Nice post!!

Good article
Doc Liberty, "If you're going to fight a war, you have to fight to win. That means, sometimes, "Cristinas." That's the bottom line.""
I've always said that, Was in Nam, involved with the Bay of Pigs, the Missile Crises.
Watched from the sidelines as we rat tailed it out of Nam and Somalia. Listened to the pilots on the Aircraft carriers, during the bay of pigs. Listened to the Cuban nationalists as they were being destroyed because there was no air cover. """Thanks John Kennedy""
If you meddle in another nations affairs, if all else fails and you do invade, you must mean business. No pussyfooting it around as we have done in Afgan. and Iraq. Going to war, then fight the war to win, not just loose troops and crow about how you started Democracy in that nation.
Israel is in a fight for her very existence. She must, and I repeat, must do everything necessary to destroy the Islamic threat.
If she fails, we in the USA are the next target in line for Islam to destroy. Don't disagree, enjoy your freedom while you can.

Tromp, tromp, tromp!!
I hear the goosestepping parade of the usual Jew hating suspects already.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Brad

This is Gaza.

http://www.lysistrataproject.org/assets/QalqilyaWall.jpg

They imprison Gaza.

Many of the populous there are recent refugees, who had no where els to go. One doesn't leave there, with out permission from the Israelis.

Life there means hunger and little medical aid, they are blockaded. One very brave Jewish woman is leaving for there from California.

"As Israeli strikes from the ground, air and sea devastate the civilian population in the Gaza Strip, Barbara Lubin, Founder and Director of the Middle East Children's Alliance (MECA) will be traveling to Gaza to bring a four tons of medicines for infants and children that MECA purchased from Europe. In Cairo, Egypt, Ms. Lubin will meet MECA’s Director of Gaza Projects Dr. Mona El-Farra, a Palestinian physician and human rights leader from Gaza. Together they will accompany a truck envoy carrying MECA’s medical aid and additional emergency supplies to treat thousands of wounded civilians in Gaza."

I live in the Detroit area
and can't help thinking how it would be if Canada, just a bridge ride across the Detroit River, decided to lob rockets at us. Should we shoot back or would the world disapprove? What would be proporionate?

hamas & Iran
Very thought-provoking, but entirely usless with the presant state of minds like paul, noboma, pelosie, barny, reid and others.

It's too late for straight thinking people.

Only God can help.

Go Isreal, protect yourself and fullfill the Bible.

Is it good for the USA?
Like most Americans, I sympathize more with the Israelis than with the Palestinian Arabs in the conflict between them. Nonetheless, I get skeptical whenever I hear someone, like Rachel Marsen here, imply that *all* the truth and *all* the moral justification is on just one side; that *every* claim or argument made on behalf of the Palestinians is a "lie" or "myth," while *every* claim supporting the Israeli position is indisputable truth. Truth is rarely that simple or one-sided.

In any case... there's a saying that, over millennia as a persecuted minority, the first reaction of Jewish people to any new development in the world is to ask, "Is it good for the Jews?" That's understandable from their point of view. But perhaps it is time, or past time, for Americans and their leaders to start asking first and foremost, "Is it good for the United States of America?" when any proposal is made to get involved in the affairs of the Middle East and devote our increasingly scarce resources to supporting one side or the other.

TOM
You post is ad. hom. with zero refute. So what if Iran is Persia, it funds Hamas and Hizbollah.

From the Vatican


"ROME — Tensions rose between the Vatican and Israel on Thursday after Israel condemned a high-ranking Vatican official for comparing the Gaza Strip to “a concentration camp.”

"Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp,” Cardinal Renato Martino, the president of the Council for Justice and Peace, said in an interview published Wednesday in an online publication.

He defended his comments in the center-left daily newspaper La Repubblica on Thursday. While noting that Hamas rockets into Israel were “certainly not sugared almonds,” he called the situation in Gaza “horrific” and said conditions there went “against human dignity.”

Lon
argues:
"Subject: Other lies seem more uncommon
Most of the claims above are oin fact not true. (With the exception of 2 which is true, but even Marsden is just arguing that the killing is ok)."

No so. Do you really believe Bush wants Israel to attack Hamas, or Iran wants Hamas to attack Israel to divert attention from its Nuclear Program. Think for a minute.

"But it is hard to see these as the main lies since with the exception of the true ones they don't seem to be said a lot."
You are not refute one error in her claim.

"The debate has largely been about whether the Israeli response is proportional not whether it was preemptive. (I think this is not quite the right argument to be having, but it is very different from the one Marsden is pretending is happening.)"

When did proportional response ever enter into winning a war? Only with academic idiots. It is disproportion response that ends a conflict, and hopefully Israel's response will end the violence with the unconditional surrender of Hamas.

"Or the claim that Israel pulled out of Gaza and put their fate in their own hands, which I see repeatedly and ignores Israel's complete control of their borders."

Sure did, and so would you after the violent behavior the Arabs exhibited after Israel's 2005 withdrawal. They destroyed the greenhouses, desecrated mosques, burned tires, generally went on a violent rampage.

Know a few facts before you put you size 10 foot in your size 25 mouth.

Wes
"
Go Isreal, protect yourself and fullfill the Bible."

Could you explain one thing Jesus taught, that would justify such an attitude? If anything, the slaughter of innocent people wold be a sin.

People, you need to stop talking
Stop talking and do something about it. This sunday, the major jewish organizations and christian churches are staging a rally here in Charleston, sc in support of God's homeland, Israel. We need to get out and openly express our support. Look at these moron palestinians and atheists. It makes a difference to get in front of the camera so the world can know how big Israel support is. Whether you are a believer or not God watches to see whether we rise to his grace.

A common theme
"
When did proportional response ever enter into winning a war?"

I think our General Petraeus would disagree. This war, is a guerilla war and would be best handled with counter insurgency measures. Many military experts believe this type of action only creates more hatred and radicalism.

http://media.www.claremontindependent.com/media/storage/pap er1031/news/2008/12/11/Athenaeum/The-Successful.Counterinsu rgency-3572959.shtml

Gaza as a concentration camp
Yes, Gaza is a cesspool and a concentration camp. But that is not Israel's fault. There was a time of relative peace which many Palistinians in both Gaza and the west bank worked in Isreal, had jobs, etc. But then Arafat chose to the intafada over peace. When the suicide attacks began Israel had no other choice but to lock its border. When Isreal unilaterally withdraw from Gaza and BTW it was unilateral because it was impossible to make a deal with Palistinians, it presented an opportunity. The people of Gaza could have chosen peace or war and they choose war by electing Hamas. So they suffer. No Arab country wants the Palistinians everywhere they go the forment instability. Yes, the US, UN, Israel, the Saudi's all give aid to the Palistinians much of which gets divered to paying militants, buying weapons including rockets.

Hamas was elected so Gazans must bear some responsibility for their own suffering. They said I am not sure at this point they can unelect Hamas. Isreal is doing Gazans a favor by killing Hamas leaders, now is the time for these people to rise up and get someone to represent them who is devoted to a negotiated peace. There is no military solution to this problem, Israel know this. But deterance has value.

The plight of palistinians will only improve when they as a people choose peaceful co-existence. So far that has not happened and so they will continue to live like dogs and die as a result of these aggressive flareups.


aspacia
You seem to have a comprehension problem. When I began reading your reply I thought it was that I had been unclear. My point was that while Marsden identifies several untrue claims about the region, it is silly to call them the biggest lies since they are not the untrue claims that are actually being made.

But later in your reply you seem to not understand what it is for a claim to be true.

I noted that what people have been arguing about is proportion not preemption. In your reply you indicate that people should not be arguing about proportion (something that I also said so I am not sure why you think it contradicts what I said). But that is rather irrelevant to whether it is what people are talking about. So while you claim that what I said was untrue, nothing in your reply actually supports the idea that what I said is untrue.

The same is true of Israel's stranglehold on Gaza. Some people (like Linda above) deny it exist, despite the fact that there is no secret it does. But your defense of that strangleholde is an acknowledgement that it exists not a refutation of it. So you are not disproving me on this point you are backing me up.

So you don't actually seem to be refuting any of the facts I gave. You seem to be refuting a moral argument that I did not give. I am sorry if I confused you in trying to get across the fact that her list of lies are not really the false claims that are being commonly made in these discussions. But the rest of your errors seem to be all you.

JM

The Second Intifada wasn't all Arafat's fault was it. Didn't it have something to do with Sharon, 200 policemen and a trip to some holy place that he said would be controlled by Israel.

Linda
As I noted in my response to aspacia, you are repeating a much more common lie (perhaps better inaccuracy since you may well believe it) in claiming that Israel is only preventing goods coming in over their border.

Israel controls the airspace over Gaza and has threatened to shoot down any planes making use of the airport in Gaza. Given their military dominance, this is a threat they can clearly make good on. They have made similar threats about goods brought over by boat.

It is true that Egypt has a border with Gaza, but the Israeli pull out of Gaza was conditioned on Egypt agreeing to Israeli monitering and acceptance of what is allowed to flow through that crossing.

Periodically Egypt has turned the other way while Gaza's broke down a wall and had passage for a day. Once they waited a week before rebuiliding a wall. But in that case Israel made clear that if Egypt didn't act Israel would.

So Egypt could allow the free flow of goods, but Israel has made clear that it would consider this an act of war, and Egypt has only defied them when humanitarian crises have gotten too severe. (There was one incident in which religious pilgrims were refused reentry to Gaza and were stuck in camps on the border that Egypt defied Israel and let them through but with world opinion on their side).

So the reality is that there would be ways to get goods into Gaza if one was willing to challenge Israeli military authority. But it is Israel that is maintaining the stranglehold on Gaza. Nor is this something Israel denies. Like aspacia they defend it. It is people who don't understand the situation but have divined that Israel must be in the right even if they don't care why, who have denied this reality.

Justified
Israel is justified in defending itself against these terrorist thugs. One can only wonder why it took them so long to do it. Hamas says that they want to live in peace. Why don't they stop their terrorist activities against the civilian population of Israel? When these people say "peace," what they mean is the eradication of Israel.

Taft
No one is totally innocent in any conflict. That said the Palistinians hold the choice. Accept the idea of peaceful co-existence of continue the struggle to kick the jews out of all of Palistine.

What the Palistinians need is tough love, they need to be told that the world will no longer fund their tragedy unless the start taking some responsibility and return to the peace talks with certain conditions that are deal breakers. That is no right of return. No attacks on Isreal.

Can a Palistian state be viable? Yes and No.
Yes, it can be viable if it has peace and stability with Israel. Israel and a new palistine could become sister states each benefitting from the other. It is not viable in a state of war with Israel. Gaza will stop being a cesspool when Palistinians can move freely and good move freely. The same is true in the west bank, the wall and the roadblocks will come down when they are not necessary for security. The settlement issue can be settled as a condition of peaceful c-existence.

But are the Palistinians ready for peaceful co-existence and even if a majority of them are can they control the minority that is not. Either the palistinians must control their radicals or the Israelies.

The Arab league must also normalize relations with Israel. This will send a clear signal to the Palistians that they will be on their own if they choose armed struggle over peaceful co-existance.

Tough love means supporting Israel's right to defend itself against enemies of peace.


Well, Rachel..
One TH poster on one of the other 427 threads dedicated to this topic lately seriously demanded that Israel nuke Gaza. Would you then rationalize that as well? (Rob from SC upthread just suggested carpet bombing them -- must be a liberal).
The topics of Israel and Gaza may bring out shabby ideas on the left, but they bring out truly revolting ones on the right. Over the past few days, we've seen TH posters call Palestinians subhuman animals, vermin, lice, etc. And you, Rachel, offer disengenuous jive (see your Point # 2 above).
No doubt Israel must protect itself as long as it insists on being located in the dumbest, most vulnerable location on earth. But the real long term solution is the Number One rule of holes.


JM

Now that is a very reasonable and honest answer, good Job! I'm afraid I'll still argue with you on details though.

Lon
You cannot seperate the control of the border with Palistinians decision to elect Hamas. Isreal withdrew from Gaza because it was sick of being an occupier, but it did not do so without security concerns. So it must control what gets in and out otherwise there would be thousands of Rockets being fired into Isreal every week instead of hundred. Yes, Israel is also squeezing Gaza in the hopes that the people there will reject Hamas.

If the people of Gaza want a better life all they need do is unilaterally declare a desire to make peace with Israel. Not a cease fire, but peace. Agree to allow all shipments into Gaza to be monitored on the conditions that there be no restriction on non-military aid. Acts of agression against Israel should be seen as an attack on the peace and security of Israel. When Palistians state arresting their own militants (As Israel does) then they will have peace. Can they do this? and more importantly do they want to?

Yes, they can with help for Egypt and Israel. Do they want to (No).

The Professor don't have lies

JM
"When Palistians state arresting their own militants (As Israel does) then they will have peace. "

Husker58 was telling me yesterday Fatah has been assisinating Hamas men in Gaza. See NYT and WaPo

I think an agreement of peace, will take some heavy doing, and must have pressure from the US. The latest cease fire failed, I read, because Rice didn't sign on to it.

Israle and the posts above
I am not sure which scares me more.
The post above, generated by a columnist who as part of the media, actually recognizes the effect of years of MSM bias and stupidity or the mostly anti-Israel posts, un-recognizing the incredible effects of living with and among terrorists who would blow their own children up to destroy this small country.

As an American, I am reviled by those of you who have missed this fine post by Ms. Marsden designed to reveal our inability to understand the situation and grasp Israel's response of self protection.

Hamas has spent years provoking Israel and now when Israel responds, you support the provocateur?

That demonstrates a woeful lack of intelligence on your part!!!


Tom, Brad, Ralph, et.al
Ever hear the old saying?

"It is better to let people wonder if you are a fool than to say something and remove all doubts!"

Every time you guys write something, you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are both stupid and foolish as well as being total idiots.

Try to keep that in mind the next time you are tempted to post.

make Israel the 51st State.
That's why you have trouble in Middle-East-because the Muslims see Israel as a alnd-increase, popularity-growing opportunity. Now, as Israel being actually part of the US...even the suicide bombers might have second thoughts about going against those who trive on war and with the US economy being so damaged I think the peace win by either Muslims leaving Israel alone or fighitng Israel and US till the end (2.3 months) and who knows, maybe Iran would like to join in and we could have peace for real and the US economy could grow ten-fold and there will be no more "Palestine this and Palestine that" crap all over the media. Go to http://www.doru9.com/israel and sign the petition to have Israel join the Union they are already in anyway hahaha. PS I'm pleasently surprised by your article. If stuff like this would make the papers...maybe they won't go out of business, yes? It doesn't, so they do!

The best thing......
...Israel can do is honor Hamas' desire for death. If the towel heads hiding behind women and children complain, remind them of their love of death, and tell them that they're just giving them what they want.

May Israel go for the Hamas jugular! Hoorah!

Even the Dullards can understand
Situation: You have a loud-mouthed drunkard as a next door neighbor. You nobviously don't get along with him because he is always doing something (all-night parties, super loud stereo, throwing his trash into your yard, etc) that gets myou POed.

You are having a little "get-together" in your back yard. Your neighbor starts throwing trash and you object. He then throws several sticks of dynamite that explode and injure and kill some in your yard.

You warn the neighbor and his "guests" that if he does that again, you will retailiate. His guests laugh and encourage him to throw more dynamite (SOME guests try to get him to stop, but they don't leave). He throws more sticks of dynamite - and you return the favor with bombs, grenade, cannon fire, etc.

Some of his guests (those who wanted him to throw more dynamite and those who didn't) are killed.

Who is at fault?

allen
They haven't "blown their own children up."

Be careful what information is bandied about. The lies have been flying high and thick.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090107/wl_time/0859918700870 0

THIS IS REALLY GETTING SICKENING

.....If I hear one more pundit or so-called analyst mention "Peace Talks" ...I might do harm to my TV ...

.....Peace does not come from talk ...it comes from victory, unconditional victory ...we achieved that objective at the end of WWII ...at least from Japan & Germany ...

.....The only way peace will come to the Middle East is:

...1. If Israel is wiped off the face of the map ( and there are many in the Arab World who wish for that solution, particularly Iran who is trying to get its own nuclear bombs)...

...2. Israel takes the offensive with a few strategic nuclear attacks and instills such fear in its neighbors that they give up all thoughts of war ...

.....There is no third option .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc

Considering all the innocent civilians being killed, over 3000 casualties, you might be a little more empathetic. But, you are forgetting how we stopped a lot of the violence in Iraq. Remember, how we got the Sunnis to work with us?

fault
Typically the person or country or group that starts the hostilities would be at fault. Let me give ya’ll an example; if for example I am in a bar, night club or some other establishment of this type and here comes the local bully. As things move right along the bully tries to pick a fight over whatever with me to no avail so he finally hits me with a pool stick. At first I just push him away from me but upon getting hit several more times I finally just say that’s enough and beat him to a pulp. Now I ask you who is at fault, him/she who just would not leave well enough alone or is it I for putting him in the hospital, the hospital is a much better place than the morgue.
Now I will tell you the person or in this case terrorist who kept up the assault. Israel has taken more than they should in this matter so 1-3 are myths but the vote is still out on our gutless wonder in the white house. No I do not now nor have I ever liked or approved of G.W.Bush as President of this country, I was raised to respect the office which I do, but the man past present or in the future is in question. Now let me make that last statement clear I did not think much of the draft dodging Clinton nor do I think much of “Wand I expect obama to really screw up this country my hope is next time in 12 I believe that we will get someone to run for the Office of President that want to stand up for the Working Men and Women in this country.

Hamas has been executing those they
accuse of being Israeli conspirators, including those in hospitals, and then adding their numbers to the civilian death toll.

The world is mostly blind to evil.

What actually the Media does NOT say
Among all the misinformation from MSM, they definitely will not say what is behind Hamas ideology.
Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement. Its charter opens with a quote from the Quran: "You [Islamic nation] are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind." [3: 110]

However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews.

Palestinian cleric ,Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), said on July 13, 2008 “The real blessing will come with the destruction of the Jews, here in Palestine, and it is one of the splendid real blessings in Palestine.” “Palestine's blessing is linked to destruction of the center of global corruption [Jews of Israel], the snake's head.”

Another cleric, Sheikh Yunus Al-Astal, Hamas MP, in his regular column in Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) said on March 13, 2008 “many of the [Islamic] religious leaders believe that the [Jews'] punishment of Fire is in this world, before the next world... therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.”

Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), said on January 1, 2009. “Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009

What the Media does not say is that Islam is behind the inhuman and barbaric ideology of Hamas. The religion of “peace” is not more than a source of violence, bigotry, hatred, terror, anti-Semitism, child abuse, slavement, tyrany, women oppression, totalitarianism, fascism, social repression, cultural retrogression, and evil.

Good Article
The people of Palistine elected Hamas because their goal is to destroy Israel, there are no innocents in Gaza. Proportional response is the stupiest thing I've ever heard
I always read Marsden articles, they are always good.

TAFT CA

.....You seem like an empathetic sort ...how about some empathy for the 3,000+ innocent civilians who went to work in the twin towers on 9/11? ...

.....Since you have obviously led a sheltered life and are the sensitive type ...let me aquaint you with some harsh truisms ...

.....You cannot make an omelet without breaking eggs and you cannot wage a war without killing civilians ...innocent or not .....COLOSSUS

...........................
----- How many Israeli citizens have been killed by Hamas rocket attacks?.....Akagi-------

Israelis have been killed and injured by the rockets. You fail to realize that this is a method to terrorize a population; the fact that more haven’t been killed is mere luck. So long as it’s Jews being terrorized you couldn’t care less. How would you feel if your neighbor was repeatedly shooting at you with his .45? He may hit you but more often than not just misses; what’s the big deal?

These islamist bootlicking Jew-haters want to impose on Israel what they would never tolerate. These far left kooks used to be a fringe element. You’d find them [and still do] on the streets of Hollywood in filthy rags reeking of beer and urine or in the gay bathhouses of San Fransicko. Now that we’ve dumbed down our nation through the abysmal public school system in the liberal run cities, creating legions of these moral and intellectual idiots, they’ve taken over one of the main political parties and turned it into a den of extreme leftist incompetents openly anti-American and anti-Semitic. As far as I’m concerned if you remove the terrorist aspect of hamas they’re not much different than the leftists and the new anti-Semitic Democrat Party.

Who started it?
How far back must you go in history to understand the animosity between the Jews and Arabs? At this point, does it really matter anymore. The fact is that the world stood idly by as Hitler slaughtered six million Jews among many others. The world's response was to give the Jews a homeland: Israel.

More recently, the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah have launched rockets and sent suicide bombers to kill more Jews. When Israel responds, they do so "disproportionately". When someone pushes you, you push back. When someone punches you, you punch back. When someone tries to kill you, you roll up into the fetal position? When someone tries to kill you, you sure don't wait for them to succeed.

I support Israel 100 % in their efforts to defend themselves and to destroy the parties that have sworn to wipe them out. This includes Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and any others that might enter the fray.

Do you want peace in the Middle East? Fine. Let the UN, the United States, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and anyone else outside the conflict between Israelies and Palestinians step aside.

A message to the Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah and any other terrorists that want to tangle with Israel; be prepared to have your backsides kicked! While the entire world allowed the first Holocaust to happen, Israel will not allow a second.

And that's how it should be.

Who started it?
How far back must you go in history to understand the animosity between the Jews and Arabs? At this point, does it really matter anymore. The fact is that the world stood idly by as Hitler slaughtered six million Jews among many others. The world's response was to give the Jews a homeland: Israel.

More recently, the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah have launched rockets and sent suicide bombers to kill more Jews. When Israel responds, they do so "disproportionately". When someone pushes you, you push back. When someone punches you, you punch back. When someone tries to kill you, you roll up into the fetal position? When someone tries to kill you, you sure don't wait for them to succeed.

I support Israel 100 % in their efforts to defend themselves and to destroy the parties that have sworn to wipe them out. This includes Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and any others that might enter the fray.

Do you want peace in the Middle East? Fine. Let the UN, the United States, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and anyone else outside the conflict between Israelies and Palestinians step aside.

A message to the Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah and any other terrorists that want to tangle with Israel; be prepared to have your backsides kicked! While the entire world allowed the first Holocaust to happen, Israel will not allow a second.

And that's how it should be.

stupid or not liberals are liberals
It is the politically correct thing to criticise Israel if you are a liberal, the poor pallistinians are only sending rockets into Isreal for recreation they dont really want to hurt anybody. It is really good to be a liberal everything is so simple

Websmith
According to the HISTORY BOOKS, The Palestinan Homeland is in the Nation of JORDAN. Jordan EVICTED THEM, and will not, under any circumstance, allow them back to their Ancestral Homeland. A friend of mine, a Lebanese, states that the Middle East Nations consider the Palestinians to be the Dumb Hill-Billies of that region, and no Arab really gives Squat about them, except as a RALLYING Point for the MOSLEM Cause. [Kind of like Dems wanting Humane Treatment for the Gitmo detainees, or thier OUTRAGE about Torture of the Al-Gareb Murdering B@st@rds.] Its ALL HYPE

Good article but not strong enough.
Marsden did a nice job of enumerating the surface wrong words but she too was trying to not get 'down and dirty'.

Palestine was non-existant as a country before Israel became a country. These were people who lived in different Arab states who now - only to their own convenience - are a 'people' and a country. Send them back into the various Arab nations and give Israel back the whole of Israel as it was when God originally gave it to them thousands of years ago. After all is said and done, it would still be the smallest country in the area, bar none!
Israelis have shown unbelievable patients and compassion for their aggressors. And Condi Rice on acerbated the problem in trying to tell Israel to give away what they should definitely keep. Condi did a good job of working for the Muslims and against Israel and I still would love to tell her that - to her face!
Israel has finally had enough terrorism directed at them and I say - "Go Israel!"

Tin ear
How many Israeli's have died?
How many Palestian's have died?

Once you answered that question you will understand why the right is seen as cold-hearted killers.

How many Iraqis have died? Innocent Iraqis?

The right wing portrays itself as ruthless, blood thirsty, war mongers because there is not such thing as "too much collateral damage" for them. I have yet to read one op-ed, ever, by a right-winger who questioned even once that perhaps the loss of innocent life was too high of a price paid. Not ever. No death toll is too high, no death toll is even worth a conversation, when it comes to war.

Ah, but abortion. The death of innocent Palestinians is no cause for remorse, regret or even to pause a breath. But abortion? Well, that calls for killing all those who had an abortion because that is what one does with murderers, capital punishment baby. The lowest form of life is a baby-killer.

It is a strange morality the right wing lives by. The death of innocence is no pause for reflection on one hand or war, and worthy of justifying killing the killers on the other hand of abortion?

Yes, this is the morality the good book brings you.

Christianity at its schizophrenic best.

And Christians wonder why non-Christians mock their air of moral superiority.


Tom the moron liberal
All liberals are liars and morons but tom takes the cake his statements are ment to inflame conservatives with his lies and distortions and fabicrated facts. He has a total direguard for the truth and common sense, of which he has none.

...........................
-------How many Palestian's have died?-------

80% of those killed have been hamas but we know you leftist bedwetting quislings weep for the hamas terrorists as you do the child rapist and murderers that we execute here in the US.

Gaza
Many think that Israel should just accept the rocket attacks. None of those would want to accept rocket attacks in their neighborhoods. That's not quite accurate-those who want to commit suicide would and some of the insane would, but any normal person would not accept it and would demand that something be done to stop it.
Many want to sacrifice Israel as Chamberlin did Czechoslovakia with the hope that it would lead to "peace in our time." It didn't and it won't.
If there was no State of Israel and if all the 12 million Jews on earth were dead, it would not stop the radical Islamists in their quest to get rid of the West and especially of the USA.
Donald W. Bales

re: The Great Satan
"80% of those killed have been hamas "

Are you suggesting there is a percentage of Hamas death ratio that would cause you to pull your support from Israel?

What is it? 50% 20% 1%? If only 1% of the dead were Hamas would still support Israel?

I really am curious. I'm guessing the answer is 0%, which makes your argument disingenuous at best.

...........................
-----There are lots of places Israel could exist in peace. I'm sure Australia would be more than happy to sell them some land.-------

Moron, there are 22 arab/muslim lands surrounding Israel. Why don’t the palestinians go back to Jordan where the population is over 60% palestinian. In a sea of Islamic nations the Jews have a tiny sliver of land but that’s too much for you Jew-hating leftist degenerates.

------You have to question the wisdom of a people who suffered a holocaust, and then created a country in the very spot where people want to kill them the most.------

Jews have been there for thousands of year’s moron. Arabs only started flooding into the region {Israel] in large numbers when the Jews drained the swamplands and created an Eden in a wasteland, moron.

These vapid historical revisionists are a pathetic group. You'd think they studied at a Bin Laden funded madras.

...........................
------I really am curious. I'm guessing the answer is 0%, which makes your argument disingenuous at best.------

I'm stating a fact not making an argument, moron.

Baseball doc
People need incentives for peace. That is why Irael is right to respond harshly to any state or non-state actors who threaten its citizens. But it must also continue tor be open to peace and a two state solution because in the end that is the only option for peace.

Of late the left has started to reject the idea of an independent Palistinan state and to be peddling which sound like a warm and fuzy version of Hamas' agenda which is the elimination of the state of Isreal to be replaced by some pluralistic multicultural respect for everyone nation.

What a hunk of propaganda that is. Only the peacenick pawns on the far left would believe such baloney. The only solution is a two state solution because Israel really does not want to be an occupier and the situation will only get worse as the Palistinians with all their troubles and oppression seem to be having no problem making babies.

Several times the Palistinians had a chance to trade in their suffering for their own state comprised of the occupied territories and each time when it came close to making the deal they balked.

Moderation on the part of Israelies is always seen as weakness. When Israel withdrew from Gaza the Palistinians had an opportunity to show the world that they can self-govern and once again they blew it.


websmith
"60 years ago, the Jews took the Palestinians' country. The battle is only beginning."?
You should re-read your history.
Palestinians never had a country.

Israel
Rachel,

Couldn't agree more. The fact that so many liberals and Israel-bashers don't want to face is that Hamas is evil. Period. They are dedicated to killing every last jew. First they want to kill all jews in Israel. Then they want to kill all jews everywhere according to their constitution. They don't care about there people, the Palestinians, at all. They will and have, happily killed innocent Palestinians they didn't like. They use their population as a human shield which is a war crime.

So, I fully support Israel in this matter.

As to the garbage that they spew about this being a response to the "occupation," this is absolutely nonsense. Just a coverup for their own genocidal intentions towards the jews. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinian Arabs have been advocating the death of all jews and the destruction of Israel since before the occupation. Even before Israel became a state, the Grand Mufti of Jeursalem, a major leader of the Palestininas and other Arabs, was friends with Hitler and openly advocated the extermination of all jews.


...........................
------People only live approx. 100 years. No person has been anywhere for thousands of years. Your argument is specious at best.------

You poor dumb fool.

----By law, the Israelis did not own that land before the country was created. They could have gone anywhere.-----

You have no idea what you're talking about. European Jews could have gone anywhere? Do you practice being this stupid or were you born this way?

Vampire
Go read history for the first time. Israel was created after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. As were the country boundaries for most of the countries in the MidEast. Why else would Iraq have three distinct populations (Kurd, Shiite, and Sunni) all living in the same country. The Jews didn't pick this land, it was given to them as their homeland.
If they are dumb in your mind for "taking land in the middle of the Arab lands", then you are a fool for not knowing what you are talking about.
Originally, God put them there. Is God an isiot in your mind too?

...........................
------My point was this: you have to question the wisdom of a peoples who just had a HOLOCAUST commited against them creating a country in a land WHERE THE PEOPLE WANT TO COMMIT HOLOCAUST AGAINST THEM-------

Juvenile drivel. It is noted though that your criticism is of Israel not the jihadist heathens that want to exterminate them as you correctly stated. You're a moral retard.

...........................
The Muslims are religious therefore they should respect the borders of Israel as stated in the Bible..........

"And the LORD spoke unto Moses,saying: ‘Command the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye come into the land of Canaan, this shall be the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to the borders thereof. Thus your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin close by the side of Edom, and your south border shall begin at the end of the Salt Sea eastward; and your border shall turn about southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass along to Zin; and the goings out thereof shall be southward of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall go forth to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon; and the border shall turn about from Azmon unto the Brook of Egypt, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Sea. And for the western border, ye shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your west border.........

...........................
........And this shall be your north border: from the Great Sea ye shall mark out your line unto mount Hor; from mount Hor ye shall mark out a line unto the entrance to Hamath; and the goings out of the border shall be at Zedad; and the border shall go forth to Ziphron, and the goings out thereof shall be at Hazar-enan; this shall be your north border. And ye shall mark out your line for the east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham; and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall go down, and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward; and the border shall go down to the Jordan, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Salt Sea; this shall be your land according to the borders thereof round about.’ And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying: ‘This is the land wherein ye shall receive inheritance by lot, which the LORD hath commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half-tribe; for the tribe of the children of Reuben according to their fathers’ houses, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to their fathers’ houses, have received, and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received, their inheritance; the two tribes and the half-tribe have received their inheritance beyond the Jordan at Jericho eastward, toward the sun-rising.’

...........................
Roger, you're mentally ill.

Adamh97
You are one of the most ill-informed, dishonest and downright stupid posters I have ever read on TH, and that's saying alot.

And Marsden's columns
Is the most irrelevant to what is a complicated, tragic, and worsening problem.

...........................
------Actually, natural gas. Whoever controls Gaza owns the rights to large natural gas fields off its coast.------

Roger you brain dead dolt, the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 giving them total control.

You can go back to practicing your Sieg Heil in the mirror.

My problem with #2
I don't think that the media is actually saying Israel is intentionally killing civilians.

What do you mean?

This is the thing most upsetting to people and though I am as pro Israel zionistic and consrvative as they come I still think they should be doing more to prevent civilian deaths.

It is in the Hebrew Torah for the Jews to limit the scope and intensity of offensive operations so that it is charicterized by the phrase "littee by little" Deuteronomy 7:20?

I heard an interview with three Israelis
on the radio the other night.

One of them said that there is a Hebrew word, untranslatable to English, which means "that which is just but is not right".

Turns out they didn't have much of a stomach for this carnage, either.

Palestinians, unlike the comic book
portrayals often posted on this thread, are not just ordinary people, they are also neurologists, philosophers, dentists, lawyers, teachers and scientists. Some are sympathetic to Hamas, some are not.

For those of you who would like to see them and their children all dead (Adam) I would ask you this: What do you think will happen next? Everybody will work to see that Israel lives in peace? All the violence will end?

Great Satan to Roger
"Roger you brain dead dolt, the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 giving them total control."

Satan, sorry, but you're the brain dead dolt. I visit Israel and environs every other year, and you don't know what your talking about. Stick to bible thumping.

There are so many Israeli checkpoints throughout Palestine that it takes hours to travel even half a mile, and basic goods are almost impossible to find easily because Israeli sancations prevent them from getting into Gaza.

Not ever Israelis deny that Gaza is occupied and controlled by them. Settlements increase at a horrific rate and they are designed to criss-cross the country so that non-Israelis can't pass through with out Israeli permission.

You are too stupid to live.

Reverend Wright ...
When you read articles like Marsden's you begin to understand where Reverend Wright is coming from.

Jingo Belle, Jingo Belle?

Truth is finally spoken
Thank you, Rachel, for standing up and speaking truth. It seems to me that the ones who are calling you "stupid" are showing their ignorance of the real facts.

Why is there a double standard when it comes to Israel? If Hamas were shooting rockets across one of our borders, what would we do?

Israel has shown extreme restraint and patience over the past 2 years. It is about time they retaliate in defense of innocent citizens against a terrorist government that is acknowledged as such by most of the world.


Dave in TX
Its unfortunate that your education was deficient in World History and the history of the Third World in particular.

This conflict is rooted in colonialism and the enduring mess made by the colonial powers.

The fact remains that Israel is a white European enclave in the midst of a Third World region.

It is an anachronism just like Rhodesia was and white, apartheid South Africa was.

JM015
The Israeli control of all of Gaza's borders predates the election of Hamas. It is true that what they have allowed through has decreased, but the conditions which if jews were asked to live under them would be proof of anti-semitism predate the election of Hamas.

So you are claiming that one can't understand the Israeli control of Gaza without understanding something that occurred later than that control. Do you see the problem with such a claim?

Roland
You said of me:

"He has a total direguard (spelling must not be your long suit) for the truth..."

Please list anything that I have posted that was not true...or admit mthat you are a big mouth who knows not of what he speaks.

This also applies to the Dave...he who has no point nor fact to back up what he blurts.

For Lon
Are you actually trying to justify Hamas launching more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel over the last three years?

Do you actually think that there are any "peace" terms that Israel can accept, and follow, that will erase the goal of Hamas to destroy Israel?

Have you, and others who condemn Israel, forgotten so soon that Arafat was offered "97%" of what he said he wanted by Bill Clinton and still turned it down?

Arafat rejected the offer because the one thing terrorists cannot abide is actual peace with Israel. Their jihad is what makes them important. It is what gives them their political power as well as their reason for being.

Peace in the ME will only follow a crushing victory by one side or the other. Ron Paul and leftists who think it's OK or even "fair" for Iran to have nukes because Israel has them are fools. They have forgotten (or consciously ignore) the catastrophe jihadists wrought against a predominantly Christian country on 9/11; a Christian country that does not occupy "their" land.

There is little, if any, doubt that if jihadists had nukes they would not hesitate to use them against Israel.

War is unfair by definition. Where do you think the adage "All is fair in love and war" stems from?

War needs to be ghastly and atrocious. It's the only way to prevent scum like Hamas from using it as a PR stunt.


No one seems to remember
that Israel on more than one occasion gave up land for peace. They didn't get any peace. They got missles lobbed at them from the very land they gave up. The land-for-peace idea was ridiculous in the first place, but not quite as shameful as using the land gained allegedly for peaceful purposes to strike your donors. If I lived in Israel, I would be mad as hell, too. They're not going to take it anymore, and yes, it's that simple.

And as for who took land from whom: if the Palestinians allegedly owned this land, who did THEY take it from?

Satan
You may not know as much as you seem to think you do. Actually the early Zionists did have plans and the opportunity to create the state of Israel in places other than the middle o0f Arab lands. Argentina was one of them. Theodor Herzl (the father of early Zionism) actually preferred Argentina to Palestine.

Also, after Herzl originated the "First Zionist Council" various meetings discussed or offered sites for a Jewish state in Egypt (Sinai Peninsula), England offered a site in British Eas Africa (the "Uganda Project") and others.

You might want to read more and blurt less.

Israel vs. Hamas
Let them fight it out.
Hamas needs to be destroyed.
Then perhaps Israel and the Palestinians can work something out. If not, then let them fight it our as well.
Perhaps then Iran, a nest of terrorists, will be next.

A great cartoon
from over 20 years ago showed an Indian chief talking to an Israeli and saying "Let ME tell you about 'land for peace'!"

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Ropati
You say:

"If I lived in Israel, I would be mad as hell, too. They're not going to take it anymore, and yes, it's that simple."

Tell us, if you had been born in Palestine and were living in the horrific squalor of Gaza...just as your parents (and sometimes even grand parents had been) would you be equally or even more "mad as hell" and not willing to "take it" anymore?

Yes, it is unfortunate that many of the Pals have resported to supporting a despicable organization such as Hamas, but desperate people do desperate things. That is how terrorist organizations such as the Jewish Defense League, Kahanism, the Stern Gang, the Irgun, the Lehi Gang, etc came to be supported by many Jews.

It works both ways and it's not quite such a simple black/white issue as you seem to try to portray it. Israel and the Jews have as much culpability as do the Pals and Arabs.

wiseone
No I don't support Hamas lobbying rockets into Israel. But I also don't support retalitory killing of civilians in a way that simply makes Hamas more popular among the Palestinians.

What I particularly don't support is the slanted way these things are reported which allows you to spout nonsensical talking points because they are the way that things get reported over here.

Arafat was not offered 97% of what he wanted (nor should he be since left to his druthers wanted he wanted would have been unreasonable). He was offered 97% of the West Bank, although this did not include control over the borders in and out of the West Bank. And did contain settlements in the heart of the West Bank with roads connecting the settlements to Israel and preventing free movement of the Palestinians. (I actually saw a defense of this by Barak which said that the West Bank would only have been bisected in one place).

In Barak's defense, I doubt that he seriously meant that proposal to be the peace plan. He made a daring proposal on Jerusalem, and he was hoping that Arafat would give up the right of return, and that would give Barak cover to make an actual peace proposal on the West Bank. Unfortunately Arafat was not willing to throw in all of his cards first either and with elections looming the negotiations fell apart.

It was only later when the attempt was made to put all of the blame on Arafat that the fiction was created that the Barak proposal was itself a final peace plan. Needless to say, human beings would not have been expected to accept the Barak proposal as it stood. But there is this strange idea that the Palestinians should have done so. Anyone that claimed that jews should accept such conditions as peace would be rightly condemned as an anti-semite. There should be an analogous term for such attitudes towards palestinians.

Media Madness
Given the biased coverage of the media, going even to faking photos, videos and stories, in previous Israeli national defense efforts, most recently the '06 ground and rockets attack - some 4000 rockets in 34 days murdering and wounding Israelis civilians - Jews, Palestinians and others - men, women of all ages, and children - by Hezbollah should we be surprised now by the chicanery of the media? Of course not!

Wrat Wrangler
You seem not to even realiuze the irony of what you posted.

The cartoon much more applies to the Arabs than it does Israel. Like the Indian in the cartoon, it's the Arabs who have lost the land!

If you doubt this check how much Palestine land the Jews owned in 1940. And even as late as 1948 the Jews owned only a tiny percentage of the land.

The Indian in the cartoon could relate a whole bunch more to the Pals than to Israel.

Tom in WI
Please see my post to you at Eyeless in Gaza, Heartless at Home by Kathryn Jean Lopez. I addressed your ignorance as reflected in your dumb posts there.

I'll Kill All of YOU!!!!
What would the response of say, China, France, Germany, the U.K., even the U.S., be if a rag-tag bunch of murderous thugs began raining down an incessant barage of rocket and mortar fire on any city or town in any of those aforementioned nations? Has it come to the point in civilization that Israel must be the punching bag for all the world's liberal guilt?

Also Ronald
That evasive and rambling "reply" you made (to those ground rules I mentioned) were borderline humorous. If you are some sort of Israel or Palestine scholar as you implied then I may be the next pilot of the space shuttle. Let me give you a clue: sententiousness does not become you...it makes you look foolish.

You dodge, deny, or dance around specific questions and points. You attempt to avoid issues, facts, and events on a regular basis.

Why did you not take a shot at those other 10 questions I posed per Israel? Or when I asked for a list of things that Israel has ever done for my counbtry, the United States of America? Or how Israel has ever aided, assisted, or helped my country?

However, you were correct that I never use spell check and there are often typos in my posts. But I would certainly always prefer typos to the inbability to process information or a biased attitude. I can only hope that you understand what that means.

Hamas tactics
Hamas, like other Muslim terrorists organizations, know how to manipulate the media. They purposely put their people (including women and children) in the line of fire so they can show their corpses to the doofless media. I believe they also kill some of their own with bombs and shelling so they can parade their bodies to the media. They are P.R. masters. Since suicide bombing is considered by them to be an immediate path to heaven. (they are taught this from birth) the victims probably agree to be sacrificed beforehand and the families paid by Hamas and Iran. The media are willing co-conspirators in this ruse.

...........................
Tom, you found one Jew, Herzl, who espouses a point of view you prefer. The notion that Israel could have been created in Egypt just goes to show what a buffoon you are for taking it seriously; same for Argentina.

Listen fool, Jews didn’t just miraculously appear in 1948. Open a history book you ignorant liberal schmuck.

...........................
I shouldn't be surprised liberals support hamas terrorists, after all, they support cop killers and the lowest form of vermin in our nation.


Why does the USA owe Israel anything?
I have no problem with anyone supporting Israel to their hearts content. Send them money, give them moral support, go live there if you so desire. But why is it my country's official policy?

Israel has never done anything of substance for my country since the unfortunate creation of the state of Israel in the middle of an Arab land. That was a recipe for disaster from day one. Over 60 years, a great Jewish man and a strong Zionist named Martin Buber told his contempories what would happen if a Jewish state was created at the expense or exclusion of the Arabs...and he has proved to have been exactly correct.

Now Israel is reaping what they have so deadly sown over the past 50 years and we are expected to pick up the pieces. That is total lunacy. Any people who have been subjected to what the Pals have over the past decades will resort to horrific actions.

My idiot government has blindly supported Israel with an almost unquestioning attitude. We have tossed tens of billions of our tax dollars at Israel while providing all those neat weapons so that Israel could do battle with the nut case rock throwers. Israel has probably caused more pain for the USA than any other nation on the planet.

Are the Arabs and Muslims often even nuttier than Isael and the Jews? Of course. But why support either of two groups of nut cases. The Jews think that they has some sort of divine right to Palestine while the Arabs, Pals, and Muslims have the entire period of ownership from the time the Romans cleansed the Jews from the "Holy Land" around 70 Ad until the mid 1900's.

Whatever, it should not be my country who feels the need to support either of these nut cases.

There are very good reasons why my country, the USA, is often the only damn nation on the planet that supports some of Israel's actions. Anyone who thinks that we are that much smarter than the rest of the world is a fool.

SATAN the big mouth
Please give us all a short discourse on the Jewish presence in Palestine from 66 AD until the early 1900's.

List the number of Jewsd who controlled or owned the land or who were of any significante portion of the population of any part of the Middle East?




rum.dog
You must be drinking too much of your namesake.

If you really do go to Israel every other year than you surely should understand why Israel has those checkpoints.

The liberal pathology exhibited on these posts displays breathtaking ignorance.

The Left is so full of hate while it incessantly preens to us about its moral superiority.

This character (rum.dog) is just the next to be added to the "ignore" pile. Go away troll.

2) Israel is killing Palestinian civilia
This is true. Right there something should tell one this lady is nuts.


And, up is really up.

Tom
It's called Israel, not Palestine. It was never called Palestine until the English referred to it as that after WWI.

Also, Masada was in 73 AD, not 66.

Perhaps you need to study a little more yourself before you start asking other people to provide data.

re: Duckhunter
For your sake you should read some history.


Thanks
Thank you Rachel. I too am getting sick and tired of the left wing support for terrorists around the world.

ride
Which democrat leader is supporting Hamas? I've read many posts here and haven't seen anyone support Hamas? Do you have some saved?

tom
You sound a awfully like a palistinians protestor in New York who said all Hamas did was kill a few jews and look what Israel is doing to us.

That is what happens when you consider lives and Jewish lives a cheap. The fact is that Hamas firing rockets is a provacative act. Any nation who faced the possibility of constant Rocket fire without end would eventually conclude that its only option is to distroy their enemies ability to fire rockets. If Israel could accomplish that without any collateral damage to Palistinian Civilials it would.

Hamas admits that it fires rockets from neighborhood, hides weapons in Mosques and Schools. Do the Palistinians live like dirt. Is that primarily Isreal's fault no.

Predicably with the election of Hamas, Palistinian propoganda and the left who drink it up and spead it here in the west has changed. They no longer talk about a two state solution because that would make Hamas an enemy of the peace they claim to favor.

Instead they are all about one state (dominated by Palistinians) where everyone has equal rights. That is about as likely as Osama Bin Laden becoming a baptist.

The only one who can make peace is the Palistinians and believe me when I say Israel would be a willing partner.


re: JMO51
Actually it is Israel's fault.

The Israeli's have had an economic embargo on the Palestinians since Hamas took office. This has been going on for over 18 months.


ONLY A COMPUTER CAN GUARANTEE PEACE

.....JMO51 ...Program a computer to maintain World peace and then give it control of nuclear missile systems ...

.....This was the theme of the Cult Sci-Fi classic "COLOSSUS: The Forbin Project" rent or buy it if you can .....COLOSSUS

Palistinians
During WWII the Palistinians were with the Nazis. During the cold war with the communists and in the first gulf war with Saddam.

That should say enough about their judgement. They have been offered real peace and their own state at least twice and they rejected it. There culture is so predicated on hating jews and getting back all of the lands that they can't see a good offer when they get one.

As one Israelie commentator said, they never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity. Unfortunately, Israel' well being is inexorably connected to sensible decision on the part of the palistinians something that has been in short supply.

As look as Palistinians are focused on Isreal they don't have time to get angry at the corruption and incompetence of Fatah and the crazy radical and repressive side of Hamas.

It is sad to say it but I don't think there is a single reasonable spokesperson for the Palsitinians. Maybe because if they dared to question the wisdom of perpetual struggle they would be slaugtered as Israelie collborators.

Baseball Doc
Terminator also. Thanks but no thanks.

PV
The Jews revolted in 66 AD and the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

As for "Palestine" you are incorrect.

The name Palestine refers to a region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to the Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north. The word itself derives from "Plesheth", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

The Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the "Land of Israel." At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived left the devastated country and established small Jewish communities throughout the Middle East.

However, if you have concluded that Hardian ruled when "the English referred to it as that after WWI." as you said...then you are correct. But I doubt that!



Vampire's Reflection
Its not Israel's fault that the Palistinians stupidly responded to Israel's gesture of withdrawing from gaza as a right of weakness on their part and electing Hamas.

And if Israel had a complete blockade of Hamas they all would have been dead a long time ago.

So the fault lies squarely with Hamas sworn to the total distruction of Isreal.

PS if you molest a tiger there is a good chance you will get eaten. Don't blame the tiger, blame the stupid and arrogant molester.

Taft

"Subject: 2) Israel is killing Palestinian civilia
This is true. Right there something should tell one this lady is nuts.


And, up is really up."


Technically speaking terrorists are civilians. Doesn't answer the question whether civilians deserve to die. Rachel is not nuts but speaks a very hard core profound truth which always hurts, especially to those that cannot admit that they are wrong.

THAT IS YOU!

Vampire's Reflection
"The Israeli's have had an economic embargo on the Palestinians since Hamas took office. This has been going on for over 18 months."


Hey goober where is it written that the Israeli's have to do any kind of business with any country? No where! Have you notice that Egypt is just a little tired of their BS as well? Perhaps it is their propensity to strap on bombs and kill people.

JM051
Actually it was not a commentator who first made that "never miss......" comment.

It was a great Jewish man named Abba Eban who was often reviled as being too much of a "dove" by the Jewish nut cases because he supported fair treatment for the Arabs.

JM051
You are being disingenuous when you mention that people who question the actions of Israel..."...is what happens when you consider lives and Jewish lives a cheap."

The fact of the matter is that Israel has alwys killed and maimed far, far more innocent civilians than any Arab or Muslim group.

Look at the numbers in the current Gaza operation. Israel has killed more of it's OWN soldiers than has the Hamas nut cases.

You should never sacrifice truth and honesty just because of your agenda. I certainly do not support Hamas or the nut cases...or Israel.

There is plenty of equal opportunity blame for both sides in this mess.


JM05 and others
why don't you follow up on the thought experiment posed here by another poster and imagine that another country, say China, decides it has a religious right to America, and in order to occupy it, destroys our homes and towns and pushes us into an area of 4 NE states, where, deprived of our livelihoods, schools, and homes, we are crowded like rats into ghetto-like areas that are surrounded by armed guards?

What happens to your "terrorist" theories? What about your 2nd amendment rights, isn't this the kind of situation that you say your guns are for?

Nextt part
Now, years pass, and American hatred for their Chinese occupiers is handed down from generation to generation - a culture of revenge blooms in the desert, making the Chinese feel unappreciated and victimized.

So, they double up on the armed guards, then enact sanctions that drastically diminish access to health care, schools, food, santitation, all the things people need in order not to feel like animals.

The Chinese say to the world, "We have to do this!! The Americans don't like us!! Poor, poor us!! We'll just have to bomb them into the stone age to bring them in line!

As for violence, I'm curious to know how willing you would be under these circumstances to forego your precious weapons and second amendment rights.

part 2
Now, years pass, and American hatred for their Chinese occupiers is handed down from generation to generation - a culture of revenge blooms in the desert, making the Chinese feel unappreciated and victimized.

So, they double up on the armed guards, then enact sanctions that drastically diminish access to health care, schools, food, santitation, all the things people need in order not to feel like animals.

The Chinese say to the world, "We have to do this!! The Americans don't like us!! Poor, poor us!! We'll just have to bomb them into the stone age to bring them in line!


SATAN the dummy
said: "Jews didn’t just miraculously appear in 1948" in Palestine.

Here is the short list of some of the groups, kings, clans, and tribes who have controlled Palestine since before the time of Christ in a general chronological order:

Pompey.

Herod, puppet king of the Romans.

Hadrian, who created the name "Palistina."

Constantine.

Byzantine Romans

Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar.

Abbasid caliphate.

Fatimid dynasty.

The Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins...who all fought the Fatimids.

Then the Crusaders, who saw Jews as infidels who were slaughtered by Christian soldiers along their way to liberate Jerusalem and then thousands in the city when they got there.

Following the first Crusade, a Papal Bull was issued in 1119 AD to not to kill the Jews, but to allow them to wander the earth as evidence of their rejection by God.

Then Saladin who at the battle of Hittin (an appropriate name) ended the Latin Kingdom.

The Mongols.

The Mamluks devasted the area.

Then the Ottoman Turks.

Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy, and his son for a short time.

Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840.

The Europeans came later.

Now Mr. SATAN IDIOT, note how many Jewish leaders or Jewish control of the area is listed above.

rum.dumb: Did you get banned? What's

with the screen name change.."rum dumb" to "rum.dumb?"


Anne
Interesting that you didn't try to reply to his point. I wonder why?

tom: Stupid point, that's why!
.

Israeli and Palestinian conflict
why worry after the inauguration of our savior and president all the middle east problems will be solved. How ever I don't think a bail out will work any better then it will work here.

D.Maxwell

Anne
Maybe you just didn't get the point. He might have been asking how YOU would accept a foreign nation doing to us exactly what Israel has done to the Palestinian and Arab people over the past 50 years.

Please advise if you require further assistance.

Donald
Again, you seem not to be paying attention or are unable to comprehend the facts.

You facetiously imply that Obama will solve the Palestinbe issues when the facts are that the fool is falling into the same trap as the nearly illiterate President Bush.

As long as Obama believes that Israel is "our great friend and ally" then he will have the same issues per Palestine as the inept Bush.

The only good news is that the gifted Sarah Palin will not be a heartbeat away from being the leader of the free world. I bet that you are glad not to be one of the dopes who actually voted to possibly put "gee whiz...by golly...you betcha" in that position. Right?

One thing for sure.

Israel is a Democracy.

Hamas are Facists.

Conservatives support Israel.

Liberals support Hamas.

Col. Billy Mitchell
That's four things -- and #3 is by no means "sure."

Tom in WI Continuation
“evasive and rambling ‘reply’ – What part of my reply was beyond your understanding? “ If you are some sort of Israel or Palestine scholar … then I may be the next pilot of the space shuttle.” – Enjoy your flight. “Let me give you a clue”- You are clueless and “you look foolish” as a result. I notice in another of your posts you seem to know something about the origins of Palestine and Palestinians, even more than credible scholars claim; yet you still deny Israel’s legitimacy as a nation with rights to existence and national defense. Shame on you. Your next sentence is all a crock of crap, your half-vast opinion of which you offer many. You have not addressed the issues I or others have raised with verifiable, sourced responses; rather you engage in ad hominem attacks trying to kill the messengers.
Pose your 10 questions again please. If I run across them and find them worthy of response I might do so. I did answer what Israel has done for our country and the world. Your inability to understand my answer is your problem, not mine.
"deaths … ’thousands’ of deadly Hamas rockets have caused in Israel” – Again you reveal your ignorance, and your attempts at facetiousness are cutsie but do not become you. The intent of terrorism is to terrorize, not to cause thousands of deaths. If 11,000 essentially unaimed rounds are fired into your home, you are likely to be terrorized if you survive and only a few others around you are wounded or murdered.
I am fully awake, not in denial and not an ostrich, head in sand, butt high in the air waiting for what comes next, nor am I an ignorant hater of Israel, Israelis and Jews or blind, deaf and dumb supporter of Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians as you are. Perhaps for all those reasons you have not noticed how much your half-vast opinions are in the minority here. The uneducable like you are unworthy of my time. F for you. Class dismissed.

..................
-------- Here is the short list of some of the groups, kings, clans, and tribes who have controlled Palestine since before the time of Christ in a general chronological order:………….tom-------

Idiot savant, you’re making my point. During all the varying conquests of Israel Jews remained, albeit in small numbers after many were expelled, but they were there nonetheless.

Here is the chronological order of control over Israel [mind you, the Jews were the only ones to create a capitol]………

Jews [1312 BC /also 586 BC], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks, Brits and then back to the rightful owners- the Jews.

You are stupid little man, tom. No matter how much evidence is put before you you continue to regurgitate arab propaganda. As they say, pearls before swine. You’re just a Jew hating little puke; as far as the history of the region [and comprehending it] you’re clueless.

For rum.dumb
I didn't ask Lon if the rockets and mortars were the cause of the war. I asked him if he was actually trying to justify Hamas' bombardment of Israel.

So even if your theories about the cause of the war are right (which I doubt), your post is just another liberal attempt to deflect the discussion away from a point you know you can't win.

BTW - we don't have to "ask any Israeli" what the cause of their military action is. Their government, their newspapers, and even TH reporters who cover Israel (like Caroline Glick) have been writing about it for months.

Fool.

SATAN the great dummy
You actually cannot respond can you!

How does it feel to open your big mouth and find out how little you know?

And just FYI: In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians and the Persians gave the Jews a little more leeway. Then, Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered the area in 333 BC. His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for control. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees, who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC and it lasted until 63 BC, when Pompey conquered the region for Rome.

So out of more than 1900 years the Jews actually had control for about how long? If you do math the way you comprehend historical events I'm guessing that 142 minus 63 will leave your sententious little mind in a quandry.

You are such a jerk that you accuse me of "hating" Jews but you cannot cite a single instance where I ever did anything of the sort. That makes you a lying hypocrite of enormous proportions.

As for your sophomoric comments on size: That is usually the refrain of someone with a tiny little copulatory organ. Live with it you moron!

Ronald
You still have never answered those questions I posed to you. Why is that I wonder?

As for our honesty per the Palestine situation, tell us what you think are the three worst things that Israel has done?

You certainly do not sound as ignorant as SATAN the dummy but you appear incredibly biased. You say "nor am I an ignorant hater of Israel, Israelis and Jews or blind, deaf and dumb supporter of Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians as you are." That is an absurd thing to blurt unless you can provide some examples (or even one) of were I have not been honest and truthful about both the misdeeds of the Hamas and Pal nut cases or where I have ever said anthing discriminatory or false about Israel or the Jews.

You on the other hand see it as a totally black/white situation where Israel and the Jews can do no wrong. That is clearly the mark of someone either incredibly stupid or clinicaly biased. Your choice.

A Former Hamas Terrorist Expounds...
On the real agenda of his former commrades in arms. Bottom line: The destruction of Israel, plain and simple.

The ignorance of some as to the right of rhe Jews to a miniscule peace of land to call their own, to which their forbearers date back 4000 years(until they and Christians were scattered by Muslim Turks)is astounding.

"Palestinians" are Arab people yet nothing is said of the refusal of the vast Arab(muslim)territories refusing to offer them settlement.
Suadi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Egypt...could solve the problem tomorrow by offering them land to settle. That however is not the real issue as they all wish the destruction of Israel as a jewish state.

Former Hamas terrosist Expounds...
Sorry, I forgot to include this link in my last post.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Security/Default.aspx?id=377966

What the Quran Says:
The source of hate amd impetus for destruction and murder of innocents. It is the common denominator between all Islamic terrorist groups whom are wreaking mayhem around the globe.

http://www.blessedcause.org/Quran.htm

Direct Quotes From The Quran:

YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)




Tom in WI – More
Since you are so dull you cannot understand I have answered your questions about the contributions of Israel and have not found any list of 10 questions from you after I told you both of those things, I don’t know how to help you further. You really do need help, as I suggested, remedial courses in reading, writing, research, ethics, morality and logical reasoning.
I add now to that suggestion that after those courses you view and read the Howard Stern, Zogby/Ziegler, Leno person on the street interviews, the Dr. Lyle Rossiter book on Liberalism as a mental illness, and the American Civics Literacy test scores – take the test. Reflect for a long time on how all that applies to you.
As I have posted to you already elsewhere in comments on these articles, now you are not only dismissed from class, you are also disenrolled. Good bye and good luck.

Islamic terrorism in Perspective....
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Islamic terrorists murder more people everyday than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com


Tom
when I posed the thought experiment above, I really didn't expect an answer as I know from experience that most people are unable to imagine anything, much less a situation that they have no exerience with.

Ths is particularly true of Anne - just ask her any question and then watch her try to evade answering it, it happenes every time, it's as predictable as rain and sometimes I ask her a question just to play with her head and watch her panic. I think it's a defect in thinking about parallel realities.

As for Satan, I don't even bother. He's just crazy, there's no nice way to say it.

Mac
Israeli aggression in Perspective with help from Israel the Christian Phalangists entered the palestinian reugee camps and killed 2,ooo men, women a children while Islraeali guards covered them so the slaughter wouldn't be interu interrupted. This is 2/3 of the men, women and children who hit the trade tower on 9/ll.

btw, these were Christians, not Muslims.

This week: Israelis herd 110 people into a building for "safety", promising them that they can wait in peace. The next day the "shelter is bombed, and most Palestians are killed.
this is 98 times more pople deliertaely killed than all the Israleis who have been killed by Hamas missiles.

I could g0 on, but I'm tired, and depressed.




etc
Israel retaliated because Hamas would NOT stop lobbing missiles into Israeli territory. These missiles were fired FROM civilian areas INTO civilian areas.

And Hamas refuses to stop - ergo .....


rum dog - al franken called and asked me to remind you to TAKE YOUR MEDS

The US is right to support Israel
I dismiss the anti-Israel drivel being posted here since it comes from liberal Jew-hating trolls. The truth is that there are 2 main reasons the US should side with the Israelis.

1. Israel is the only real democracy in a sea of theocracies and autocracies. They follow the rule of law. We, as a fellow democracy ruled by law are morally obligated to support them. It is simply the right thing to do.

2. Supporting Israel is in our best interests. Israel is the only ME country that supports us and tangible ways. It's a tiny country with few natural resources but does what it can for us. For months prior to 9/11, Israeli intelligence warned our administration that a major attack was coming to the US and provided a list of 30 terrorists residing in the US (4 of whom turned our to be 9/11 hijackers). We dismissed the warning as not credible. After 9/11, Israeli airlines sent their terrorist experts to our airlines to help in developing security policies (no El-Al plan haws ever been hijacked). More Israeli experts came here to help our FBI learn how to better protect us from threats. Prior to sending our troops to the ME, Israeli operatives provided detailed intel to our troops. Israel has always been ready to assist us in any way possible. What have palestinians done other than dance in the streets whenever Americans die?

For Lon re: 97%
The following is from Wikipedia, hardly a conservative publication.

"Barak offered to form a Palestinian State initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10 to 25 years the West Bank area would expand to 90-91%. As a result, "Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."The West Bank would be separated by a road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians although Israel reserved the right to close the road for passage in case of emergency. The Palestinian position was that the annexations would block existing road networks between major Palestinian populations. In return, the Israelis would cede 1% of their territory in the Negev Desert to Palestine. The Palestinians rejected this proposal."

If you're going to detail the West Bank vs. Gaza in your post you should, in the interest of full disclosure, point out that Barak also offered Arafat 100% of Gaza.

Combining that with 91% of the West Bank it is fair to say that Arafat was offered 97% of what was on the table.

As far as "control" of the border goes, no nation unilaterally controls any border with its neighbor. By definition of the word "border" control is mutual.

You also fail to mention that every peace negotiation has been impeded by Israel's demands for specific provisions for its own security that are unacceptable to Palestine. Yet the Palestinians have demonstrated after each negotiation, failed or otherwise, that they will continue to attack Israel.

If Palestine wants peace they need to try - peace.

One sided garbage
This is one of those article so stupenoudly stupid its almost not worth replying to.

The "author" is writing as if from an independent stance. But we in europe know that the US are in the pocket of Israel. Evne Condi Rice had to abstain on the vote to stop the fighting, because she knew that the proposal was right, but she couldnt anger your Israeli paymasters.

Here is what is really happening, from a Brit living in Britain who gets the full world news from both sides. Ie Balance. something which you Or the muslims dont have.

Ready.

BOTH sides are wrong. Hamas are a party but have decided for fanatical reasons to side with and are part of the militant muslim who hate the west and Israel and mercelessly lob rockets into civilian areas in Isreal. THEY ARE WRONG.

Isreal on the other hand have an imbargo on things like aid and construction, some of which is valid, however it means the people in Palestine live in near starvation. Every now and again they retaliate with excessive force. THEY ARE WRONG.

I know its not reported on your news, and therefore you have no clue. But the EU is sonstantly calling for Hamas to stop this, and using aid as the bride. So far fanaticism seems to be more in demand than aid. Sad but true.

So this article is garbage, and of course is from the same ethos as a muslim would write about Hamas.

The US is in Israels pocket. Hamas is in the fanatical muslims pocket. How about for one, shutting up and letting Europe have a real try at sorting out your and the muslims mess! Rather than writing bilge like this and abusing European efforts.

To Idopas
Sure, we in the US would be happy to have Europe have a go at fixing the muslim mess. Problem is, we don't see you doing all that well in your own countries. From news I get here (and much of it from english versions of euro newspapers), it appears that the euro response to the muslim mess is appeasement. As history shows, including the recent terrorist assaults in Europe and India, that approach has never worked. And BTW, if Europe wants to jump in and fix the terrorist messes around the world, we Americans would also be pleased as punch to bring all our troops home. Surely you blokes would be better able to resolve the issues (in Africa, South America, etc) with your own troops.

ldopas (voice from the UK) ...

Hey, guess what?

The Great One (Obama) will take your side... He will "side with the Muslims", and let the European turds fend for themselves.

Enjoy your Sharia Law (chop,chop)!

wiseone
I don't know if it would be possible for you to have missed the point more than you actually did.

Israel gave the Palestinians 100% of the land of Gaza, but no control over their borders. The result is what the Vatican only somewhat flamboyantly called tantamount to a concentration camp.

Controlling land without controlling the flow of people and goods into that land is not control.

The passage you posted just confirms this. A "free" Palestinian population would have been able to get around through Israeli checkpoints (and those are within the West Bank not just from the West Bank out of the territory).

There might be reasons why a group would accept such a situation as a temporary less onerous occupation. But to pretend it is not a continuation of occupation is silly. If we thought of the Palestinians the way we think of human beings we would laugh at anyone who suggested that is a peace proposal.

Can you imagine a situation in which moving around the US required passing through a foreign country's checkpoints and yet we call that peace? I can't.

Idopas,The Limey Mouth!

Tell us about The British and French Imperial Policy that's the root cause of most the violence and mess in Lebanon/Israel/Palestine since 1948.

Then you can take your own suggestion ,and Shut your Big Limey Mouth.

Hey Ronald,The Israel Agendist !
If ya can't answer Tom's simple question,then tell us about Illegal Israel Sales of Our U.S. Weapons Technology to The Red Chinese,jeopardizing U.S. Allies Japan and Taiwan.


Hams is an acronym
Hiding Among Mosques And Schools

nuff said

Oregon Lady
I realize this may be a rhetorical question for you, since I know it is for fools like THE GREAT SATAN and some others, but do you actually believe that everyone who questions or even mentions the actions of Israel are really all "liberal Jew-hating trolls" as you typed?

Do you believe that Rabbi Stephen Wise, Martin Buber, Jeff Halper, Rabbi Elya Svie, Joel Teitelbaum, and the scores of other Jewish clergy and the thousands of Jews who question or do not approve of Israel's policies are all "liberal Jew-hating trools" as you said?

Also, since Ronald cannot, will you please list the things that Israel has ever done for the USA since and the things that Israel has done to aid or assist the USA?

Bloody News Sells Best
A horrible accident on the highway where bodies are sprawled out on the roadside ties up traffic for miles. It is not because the road is blocked but only because drivers want to slow down and take a peek. Most drivers find the gruesome scene entertaining and would love to park their car and get a better look at the blood trickling out of the crushed bodies but the traffic police forces them to move on. It is no different when a person passes a newsstand and sees a headline describing mass murder or mayhem. They stop and purchase the newspaper and are then entertained by the blood curdling photos and stories. The events in Gaza where civilians and children are being killed while mothers are weeping is so entertaining to the lovers of grief and death that the media is now harvesting a fortune by displaying it to the public. It is wrong to label MSM as being biased because they focus on the dark side of life. They are only in the entertainment business giving the public what it enjoys most and that is a clear view of death and destruction.

Mac from NJ

Yea but you can't take the Koran too seriously.

Muhammond was high on Opium when he was getting all these visions.

Theres also like 7 or 8 different versions of the Koran and nobody knows which is the orginal since early Muslims were too busy making war and didn't take the time to write the words down acturately.

Response to Tom
Sorry about the delay but I had to go to work yesterday after posting my bits. If you're still there....

I posted some things Israel has done for the US (#163). Since you do not mention it I assume that either you do not read the thread or are not willing to admit you're wrong/uninformed. As far as the jew-hating lefties, there can be no other explanation for people who choose to believe propaganda over fact. Israel is certainly not perfect; she has done some awful things (such as spying on the US in the 80's). But to accuse Israel of tyranny because of her acts to protect while whitewashing Hamas actions betrays a bias. As for your other comment, there are Jewish jew-hating lefties just as there are American US-bashing lefties.

To Idopas
"But we in europe know that the US are in the pocket of Israel."

Ummmm. Did Israel WANT to give up Gaza? No, they were pressured into it by the U.S., among others. Did Israel want to give up Sinai? No, they were pressured into it, by Eisenhower. Honestly, don't you read history? You should know about Sinai -- your nation 'gave' it to them in return for Israel attacking and distracting Egypt from YOUR Canal c@ck-up!


"Isreal on the other hand have an imbargo on things like aid and construction..."

First, remember how it was discovered that pipes being sold from Israel to Gaza, intended to form part of a sewer system that was to improve Gazans' quality of life, instead ended up being manufactured into rockets? Google it if you are too poorly informed to know. Second, Egypt is also embargoing many materials and controlling movement. Why do you not mention them? Because you did not know, probably, which again demonstrates that you might learn a thing or two from your more-knowledgeable cousins over on this side of the lake.

"Every now and again they retaliate with excessive force."

First, it was the Palestinian Arabs who have always been the agressors -- in 1921, in 1936, in 1948. It was Israel who retaliated, by moving to seize defensible borders. Or where you unaware of this? As for 'excessive force', I can't imagine even the British penchant for understatement excusing this deceitful assertion: well over 1,500 rockets and mortars in one year makes nonsense of the phrase 'excessive force'. Perhaps you meant to say "oft-repeated attempts at mass-murder"? If the Palestinian Arabs could do to Haifa what you guys did to Dresden, I'm sure they would leap to it as eagerly!

Let me get this straight:
Israel sells the cockroaches (Palestinians) in Gaza quality steel pipe to improve their water supply. Bad water leads to all sorts of ills including diptheria or typhus as I recall so this is humanitarian work even though they may have made a minimal profit on the pipe.

The Gazan roaches bought the pipe with the $85 million that the U.S. funneled them via the U.N. and they turned it all into flying pipe bombs? Next time sell them aluminum pipe. The light weight will reduce their downrange ballistic coefficient and render them vulnerable to winds. Maybe some will boomerang on them. One can hope.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

To Wrat Wrangler
Exactly. Where did they get the money to buy the pipe? The foreign aid that is supposed to feed their kids and help them create a working economy. What did the use for explosives -fertilizer which they were given to raise crops and feed their kids, or did they use still MORE 'aid' money for the purposes of murder?

But from the liberal pro-Palestinian Arab ranks, we get nothing but complicit blindness, obfuscation and excuses.

Second to Wrat Wrangler
On another note, while I agree that many Palestinian Arabs demonstrate as much concern for their offspring as roaches do -- teaching them to blow themselves up, arming them and sending them against IDF troops at age 12, giving the aid money that was to help the children to instead line the pockets of fatcats like Arafat, using other money to buy bombs rather than build a better life -- I still take great exception to you using that particular term for *human beings*, no matter how despicably many of them behave.

Demonizing your human foes is a REALLY good way to sink to demonic depths yourself. Let it go.

3,278 attemps at mass murder
That is ALL Israel got from returning Gaza to Palestinian Arab control. This despite the assurances of many American libs that giving back land would ease tensions.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qas sam.htm

Heaven help them if the give up the border control points and the Wall!

Wrat Wrangler:
I have to agree with Tallil2long in a way. You shouldn't use the term "cockroach" for these people. I know they live like the roachers and breed like them, but you are insulting the fine line of cockroaches we have here in Texas. And we have - at least - three types of them here, at least one that is quite large. Cockroaches at least don't destroy themselves too.

Terror?
When the body count after 2 weeks reads 1000-13 dead and 10 of the 13 are killed by friendly fire, who is the terrorist and who are the victims?I love the analongy""Hamas sent 7000 rockets into Israel""...Really? and what kind of body count did that bring??....This is sheer nonsense and the author of this article should really get a grip on what the term terrorist actually means and who is sponsoring the real terror...Potato cannons arent rockets and they arent capable of doing any significant damage,when faced with an enemy that does have weapons of some usefullness as did hezbollah in 2006, israel sang a much different tune and ran home with its tail between her legs..Im not saying Israel doesnt have a right to protect herself,im saying Israel should stop the stupidity of bombing people using slingshots,rocks and PVC piping turned into make shift ""rockets""...If Israel wants to stop Hamas they should stop making Palestinian children orphans,cripples and homeless and instead concentrate on making Palestine a place where people can make a living by working...Seems to me when people are feeding their families theyre too busy and are unwilling to die for a guy who lives in a tunnel in Damascus...Just look at Belfast and the calm thats been in Northern Ireland for the last 10 years or so..Catholics got a fair shake and now theyre too busy and unwilling to become ""martyrs"" for a cause...

To Mr Crunchy
You, too, fail to understand the problem. Regarless of the body count from the Palestinian Arabs' rockets, each and every one of those attacks was a deliberate attempt at mass murder.
I don't have to allow an armed intruder to kill me before I am justified in defending myself with deadly force. If he misses the first time, I am not going to stand up and give him another shot. I am going to defend myself and my family.

You know, the casualty figures from the U.S.-Japanese part of WW2 ended up being pretty one-sided. Should we have allowed the Japanese to kill an extra hundred thousand Americans just to 'even things up'?

As for 'making Palestine a place where people can work to make a living', better check again and see who is blowing the money putting it away into Arab politicians' personal fortunes and buying sewer pipes to make missiles. As for crippling Palestinian children -- that could stop the moment the Palestinian Arabs stop shooting rockets.

You might also read an account of the unprovoked 1948 attack on Israel. It didn't start with the Jordanian and Egyptian armies. The first assault came from the Palestinian Arab civilians.

Nothing has changed.

To Mr Crunchy
Tell me something. Exactly how many dead Jews *would* you like to see before Israel retaliates?
Would 5,000 dead women and children from rocket strikes be enough?
How about 10,000?

Please tell me EXACTLY how many women and kids would Hamas have to kill to justify Israeli countermeasures.

I mean, to be REALLY fair, the Israelies could just go over the border every time an Israeli woman or child is killed by the Palestinian Arabs, and kill exactly ONE Palestinian Arab woman or child. That would be fair, right? That would make it even. Is that what you advocate?

Excellent article
"Israel has nukes and Hamas doesn’t, so it’s unfair."

In a nutshell, this is why I could never support RU Paul.

"6) George Bush has “studiously ignored the whole problem” of Israel vs. Palestine.

Or so says new agey expert turned political analyst, Deepak Chopra, in this week’s San Francisco Chronicle. .... – a recognized expert in such things as “self-awareness” - concluded by humbly declaring his own analysis “irrefutable”. "

Yet another reason why he should be called the Mishuggahnishi Yogi (with apologies to Joey Foreman).

Jim



To Darkness Fish
'Studiously ignoring the problem' seems likely to be the best course we could possibly take.

Consider: the UN and the U.S. have been 'deploring' the Palestinian Arabs' thousands of attempts at mass murder for years; how has it affected the situation? Has Hamas changed their ways?
On the other hand, the Israelis have bowed to U.S. and UN pressure several times: pulling out of Sinai, pulling out of Lebanon, pulling out of Gaza, etc.

So our interference is really only hindering Israel -- the impact is negative, and one-sided.

The best thing we could do is give Israel's defensive measures the same level of attention we give the Palestinian Arabs' provocations: we should make politely horrified noises and then look aside, letting the the Israelis get on with their war unhindered.

It would only be fair.

Talli2long
"'Studiously ignoring the problem' seems likely to be the best course we could possibly take."

My only point here was to take a shot at Deepak Chopra.
....

"The best thing we could do is give Israel's defensive measures the same level of attention we give the Palestinian Arabs' provocations: we should make politely horrified noises and then look aside, letting the the Israelis get on with their war unhindered."


I agree with this as ong as we do let Israel do what she needs to do.

Jim

Talill2long
You say about Israel :

"Would 5,000 dead women and children from rocket strikes be enough?
How about 10,000?"

Where in the world do you get your info. Over the past 8 YEARS the Hamas rockets have caused a reported 28 deaths per Israel's own reports.

Do you always tend to gross exaggeration or are you so biased that you simply ignore the facts?

Israel has more traffic deaths every month than the Hamas rockets cause in a 7 years. So why not drop 150 tonbs of bombs on Israeli motorists and then invade their neighborhoods with tanks?

Just quoting Menachem Begin
HE first called them roaches. They're unwanted, basically filthy, despoil everything they touch and breed well, like cockroaches. At least cockroaches have uses like feeding pet lizards.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Wrat
Do you realize that you are acting exactly like the people that you (and all of us) so despise?

With your mindset, if you had the misfortune to be born in Palestine you would probably be among those brainless fanatics who populate Hamas and have justified killing innocent people.

Seek help.

The difference
Tom "thumb up your butt" is that Hamas is the enemy NOT the "innocent", but mind-controlled Palestinians. This has gone on too long.

Hamas WANTS dead Palestinians to whip up support in the "international community". SCREW the "international community". Most of them are jealous incompetent losers who resented our successes and are gleeful that the economy is in the tank for the time being and that we are "getting ours".

We have NO real friends in the "i.c." so to Hell with them too.

Israel has NOT embarked on genocide no matter what the lying handwringers in CAIR want useful idiots like you to believe.

IF that were true there wouldn't be a breathing Palestinian left in the world right now and the other Arabs would NOT CARE! The Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians and others had ample opportunity to take them in and absorb them into their populations. THEY don't want they either. THAT'S the dirty secret of the Middle East you ignorant twerp.

They'd as soon see them all gone. Israel just wants to be left alone. They gave up the Gaza which they won from Egypt to the Palestinians and then Hamas took ALL the foreign aid they got for humanitarian purposes and started buying arms to eliminate Israel, their REAL goal in this.

If you can put your blind bigotted Jew hating rage aside for at least 5 minutes you'll see it. Say "Hi" to the kleegle for us you bigot.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Wrat Wrangler
Thanks for speaking for me!!

To tom
"Where in the world do you get your info. Over the past 8 YEARS the Hamas rockets have caused a reported 28 deaths per Israel's own reports.
Do you always tend to gross exaggeration or are you so biased that you simply ignore the facts?"

Read the conversation more carefully, neighbor. I am not claiming that Israel HAS suffered this number of casualties. Crunchy claimed that the disproportionate casualties caused by the thousands of Palestinian Arab attempts at mass murder versus the Israeli responses, is indicative of Israeli wrong-doing. My point was that it is downright idiotic to insist that a nation fight a war in order to deliberately make their own casualties at least equal to the enemy's. To this end, I asked Crunchy just how many Israeli casualties he'd like to see before he'd admit them the right to defend themselves.

Read it all again and apply your brain.

"Israel has more traffic deaths every month than the Hamas rockets cause in a 7 years. So why not drop 150 tonbs of bombs on Israeli motorists and then invade their neighborhoods with tanks?"

On the other hand, applying your brain might not help, if this statement is typical of your muddle-headed thinking. Traffic deaths are *accidental*, whereas 3,278 rocket and mortar attacks in one year are deliberate attempts at mass murder.
Does one generally respond to an accident with lethal retaliation? If not, your apples-and-oranges comparison is not merely inappropriate, it is downright foolish.

To Wrat Wrangler
Then Menachem Begin shouldn't have called them roaches, either.

Actually that's not all.
He was also the one who blew up the King David Hotel AFTER the Brits gave them the land they wanted. He was a thug but at the time they NEEDED a thug or two but not thousands like Hamas has turned loose over the years.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

are you kidding me?
Settle for "something a bit messier"?????

You're just as bad, no, wait, your worse than the most annoying people on the left. You have ignored so many details in your article that I don't know how anyone could rely on your articles.

I agree that there are plenty of misunderstandings and lies - but you have done nothing to stop the trend.
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