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Tuesday, November 03, 2009
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama Makes Polygamy a 21st-Century Issue
by Phyllis Schlafly
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No sooner had we celebrated the exit of Barack Obama's green jobs czar, Van Jones, because of his Communist connections, another off-the-wall administration embarrassment surfaced. President Obama nominated for commissioner of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) a woman who signed a radical manifesto endorsing polygamy.

Arguing
with Idiots By Glenn Beck

We thought our nation had settled the polygamy issue a century and a half ago, but this nomination makes it a 21st century controversy. Obama's nominee for the EEOC, a lesbian law-school professor named Chai R. Feldblum, signed a 2006 manifesto endorsing polygamous households (i.e., "in which there is more than one conjugal partner").

This document, titled "Beyond Same-Sex Marriage: A New Strategic Vision for All Our Families & Relationships," argues that traditional marriage "should not be legally and economically privileged above all others." The American people obviously think otherwise, and current laws reflect our wishes.

Feldblum is not the only pro-polygamy Obama appointee. His regulatory czar, Cass Sunstein, wrote a book in 2008 called "Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth and Happiness," in which he urged that "the word marriage would no longer appear in any laws, and marriage licenses would no longer be offered or recognized by any level of government."

Sunstein argues that traditional marriage discriminates against single people by imposing "serious economic and material disadvantages." He asks, "Why not leave people's relationships to their own choices, subject to the judgments of private organizations, religious and otherwise?"

Sunstein also suggests "routine removal" of human organs because "the state owns the rights to body parts of people who are dead or in certain hopeless conditions, and it can remove their organs without asking anyone's permission."

The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was passed in 1996 by overwhelming majorities in Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) has identified more than 1,000 federal laws that are based on the traditional definition of marriage, including the tax laws that permit married couples the advantage of filing joint income tax returns and the Social Security benefits awarded to fulltime homemakers, both very popular federal laws.

The peculiar push to recognize polygamy as just another variety of marriage is a predictable and logical corollary of the political movement to recognize same-sex marriage. If our government cannot define marriage as the union of one man and one woman, it follows that there can be no law against the union of a man and several women.

For years, polygamy, even though it is totally demeaning to women, has been embraced by the powerful American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). Polygamy is one of the many controversial issues that were not raised during ACLU lawyer Ruth Bader Ginsburg's so-friendly Supreme Court confirmation hearings.

The ACLU's feminist president, Nadine Strossen, stated in a speech at Yale University in June 2005 that the ACLU defends "the right of individuals to engage in polygamy." On Oct. 15, 2006, in a high-profile debate against Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, Strossen stated that the ACLU supports the right to polygamy.

Speaking to the Federalist Society on Nov. 18, 2006, the ACLU's executive director, Anthony Romero, confirmed his organization's support of polygamy.

The massive immigration that the United States has accepted in recent years includes large numbers of immigrants from Third World countries that approve of polygamy as well as marriage to children and to close relatives. We wonder if polygamists have been admitted to the United States and if they are continuing these customs in U.S. neighborhoods.

Attacks on the traditional legal definition of marriage come from the gay lobby seeking social recognition of their lifestyle, from the anti-marriage feminists and from some libertarians who believe marriage should be merely a private affair, none of the government's business. These libertarians want to deny government the right to define marriage, set its standards or issue marriage licenses.

Government now has and should have a very important role in defining who may get a license to marry. In America, it is and should be a criminal offense to marry more than one person at a time, or marry a child or a close relative, even though such practices are common in some foreign countries.

In socialist Canada, which has already approved same-sex marriage, polygamy has suddenly become a live issue. British Columbia's Supreme Court is now being asked to decide if polygamy should remain illegal.

We may have to depend on the Republican Party to maintain government's proper role in defining and protecting traditional marriage. The very first platform adopted by the Republican Party, in 1856, condemned polygamy and slavery as the "twin relics of barbarism," and the 2008 Republican platform calls for "a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it."

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Feldblum is right
I tend to agree with Feldblum. If we removed all references to marital status from federal and state laws, we could then stop all the purely semantic squabbling about whether a civil union is the same as a marriage, whether marriage is for opposite-sex couples only, and how many partners one can have. Gay couples who want religious ceremonies can already have them if they want, so let's just give "marriage" back to the churches. Consider everyone single for purposes of inheritance, taxes, immigration, adoption, Social Security and all other areas of the law that favor married people.

Marriage is no longer necessary for establishing paternity, and the courts settle custody and property questions whether couples are married or not. Let the clergy decide who can be married in the eyes of the church. In the law, everyone would be equal.

As for polygamy, that door is already open — we just call it adultery. Even though a person can be legally married to only one mate, there are no laws against adultery (except in military justice) and nothing to prevent a person from living with, and bedding with, as many people as he or she wants. Polygamy is not often prosecuted because only one “wife” is actually the legal spouse. Unless there’s welfare fraud or a wife who has been coerced or is under age, there’s no crime.

Through the ages various societies have more often accepted polygamy than required monogamy. (Solomon was said to have 700 wives and 300 concubines.) Marriage “norms” have included arranged marriages, “purchased” wives, child marriages, forced marriages of widows to their brothers-in law — and, yes, same-sex marriages in medieval Japan and China, and among native tribes in Africa and the Americas. There is really no such thing as "traditional" marriage.

And so the homosexuals

in Maine have attempted to use government to force their
way into a straight celebration. Now they're upset
that the straights used government to kick them out.

Jews don't ask for a Jew friendly Christmas or Easter.
They've got their own celebrations and institutions.

In light of the Maine vote, isn't it time for adults
with homosexuality to concoct their own celebration.
The homosexuals I know are very bright and creative.
Let us now create a word for man/man commitment.
And a word for woman/woman commitment.
Like always, in Maine, marriage is a multi-gender endeavor.

I am unaware of any regular people demanding entrance to a homosexual organization or institution. Why do folks with homosexuality so frantically desire the approval of the straights?
Why do they lack self confidence on such a grand scale?
Imagine Christians demanding a Christian Hanukkah party. Wouldn't that be pathetic?
What's wrong with this element of the homosexual community? Why are they so pathetic?

Bad Albino Bob & Mother
Bob - We can disagree on that, that's totally cool and I think nothing less of you for it. People should be able to civilly disagree. thanks Bob.

Mother - Wrong era? Free love was not a primary tenet of communism in the Soviet Union, and had nothing to do with it's collapse. In fact free love was as or even more prevalent in some of western Europe than in the USSR.
I myself do not support hippie love.

Virginia Jack, you said:
"It is none of the government's or anyone else's business who marries who and how many they marry."

Homosexuals are using governmental power to insert themselves into a straight institution.
They are in fact seeking justification and legitimization from the straights.
They're feelings should not be hurt when the regular folks use the government evict them from their institution.

typo correction for the OCD's
anomalies

RE: Mike's question
Mother of 4 said "What we call "race" -- which has no firm biological or genetic basis -- is a matter of mere surface characteristics. Sex is a matter of fundamental differences in biology. Not mere anatomy either, but the even deeper differences in the genetic code."

Interestingly, since mapping the human genome, there has been no "race" gene found...just variations as Mother of 4 pointed out.

And as far as I am aware, no homosexual gene either. Biologically, there is still XX and XY, and "innies" and "outies"(majority of the time)with rare anomolies on occasion. If one were a proponent of evolution, then you'd need one of each sex to continue the species, regardless of the whole religion thing.

I agree with Mother of 4 on her stated positions though.....Mother of 5

mendicus,
Thank you very much.

I have considered having my own blog, but am uncertain if the effect on my family would be worth it.

Jack,
Go back and read my initial posts, "What is marriage for?"

Marriage is not a mere private contract which affects no one but the signers. Marriage is a public institution, recognized as such by governments throughout history and which has a profound effect on the structure of human society.

As the primary means by which property and culture are transmitted from one generation to the next it is not something to be lightly trifled with. Examples of what happens when marriage collapses can be found both in history and in the current day.

Can you agree that America's inner cities -- crime-ridden, gang-ridden, drug-ridden, and infested with irresponsible people who depend wholly on the government for their support and the support of their children are far from being idyllic bastions of freedom and unfettered human rights?

The fight to preserve marriage is nothing less than the fight to preserve civilization itself. And the fight to preserve civilization is the fight to preserve freedom because anarchy and chaos -- where the strongest rule and the weaker serve the ruler -- is the most repressive situation of all.

Jack, the world is not libertarian
"It is none of the government's or anyone else's business who marries who and how many they marry."

-- Sorry, bub. You're wrong.

Marriage is no mere personal decision along the lines of what color car you'll buy or whether you prefer Mexican or Italian for dinner.

It's a social institution as much as it is a private covenant. With regard to the latter, society owes the individuals a certain degree of privacy. As concerns the former, the individuals owe society a measure of accountability.

Nobody gets to make up his or her own rules for participating in the institution.

In a healthy society, individuals recognize the function and authority of the wider community, and their place within it, and act accordingly.

In this case, the community comprises a majority that continues to recognize historical, foundational views of sexual behavior and the traditional mores of its proper expression.

So it's very much "anyone else's business." Only sociopaths and narcissists deny it.

You say:
"If some want to marry more than one person, fine. That's freedom."

-- No, that's license.

We're done with the polyamorous practices of ancient kings and patriarchs, though not with the sexual distinctives inherent in nature: male-female expression.

You:
"So long as it is not forced on anybody, the government has no right to deny people the right to do this."

-- But it does have the right to enforce standards and norms.

You:
"The issue as hand is whether or not the state has a right to condemn or condone certain voluntary behaviors. According to the constitution, it does not."

-- But it does bear the responsibilty to oversee domestic tranquility on behalf of those with no desire to see an anarchic world of "anything goes" conduct and "unions."

You:
"It's a free country. Let's act like it."

-- No, let's act like adults.

Mother of 4
You really do need a much broader reach than commenting on others' columns. It's clear you're versed in law, history, science and ethics, and you stand both tenaciously and eloquently by well founded conservative principles. Get yourself out there. I don't know how, just do it.

Not Anyone's Business
Again with the moral crusading. Gay marriage was already addressed by someone else earlier and now it's polygamy. Somehow this is another great evil that must be stamped out, but the same issue is at hand here as it is with gay marriage.

It is none of the government's or anyone else's business who marries who and how many they marry. If some want to marry more than one person, fine. That's freedom. So long as it is not forced on anybody, the government has no right to deny people the right to do this. Just becuase some people see it as a harm to children and women isn't enough. The issue as hand is whether or not the state has a right to condemn or condone certain voluntary behaviors. According to the constitution, it does not.

Now do I like polygamy? Personally, I don't think I could handle more than one wife. But if someone thinks they can, why not? Let them try. It's a free country. Let's act like it.

Michigan Jeffrey,
Do not be upset about Maine.
The homosexuals of Washington
State are going to have their
own celebration now.
Let the baseball kids do their
thing in Maine, California etc.
Soccer players can be cool if
they'd stop wishing the baseball
players would invite them.

Jeffrey,
if you are seeking to participate in a straight created institution, you are in fact seeking justification and legitimization from the straights.
You're like a little soccer player that's upset because he wasn't invited to the baseball party.
Have a soccer party Jeffrey. Soccer players are cool too.

Jeffrey of MI you said:
"A few more court cases and same-sex marriage will be legal in most states, then all 50."

Jeffrey, it is statements like this that make your kind look hysterical. If Michigan will follow the lead of Washington State and New Jersey you'll have what you seek.
The Maine example should teach you something.

31 to Zero Jeffrey. Maybe it's time for a new gameplan.

cbd1138,
You're in the wrong era.

The problem with social collapse in the USSR came early in its existence when "free love" was among the communist principles.

The leaders changed policies rapidly after the effects were felt.

Where does it end?
Fro many years the gay marraige rights people have scoffed indignantly at the protestors who claimed that once gay marraige was legalized that the door would be opened to even more 'diversity' in marraige. gay righters claimed that those who were against it were ridiculous to think that polygamy or whatever would be the next step and so on. After all, they said, gay marraige is just about two people who love each other and aren't hurting anyone.



Interesting that here we are, so quickly, at the point where polygamy and other instuitutions will logically use the same arguments to demand legalization of their own 'diverse' type of marraige. Only now it will be: 'we're just 3, or 4 or 5, people who love each and aren't hurting anyone.' They will use the same arguments that the gay rights people use.

Whats next? men wanting to marry their sisters?and why not? 'ts just two people'...or possibly two same gender siblings wanting to marry each other...'hey are two consenting adults who love each other'...somewhere down the road, someone is going to love their german shepard so much that they will want to marry them, after all they love each other and animals have rights too.

If there is no foundation of your morality then a free for all will result as people will use these arguments to do whatever they want.

The decline and fall of Rome...

No, don’t YOU worry, Jeffrey
The "long arm of the law" will reach you, too.

The very same judicial activists behind whose “legal protections” you hide to deny the people’s rights, to protect your predatory aggressions and to annul the referenda we “keep voting” on will later be turning on you and yours — IN DUE TIME.

You can be sure.

It is inevitable, because it is the nature of the beast, Jeffrey-boy.

“Hate crimes”? You huns are the masters.

He who digs a pit will himself fall into it. He who builds a gallows will himself swing from it.

You are digging your own graves, Jeff. You can’t see that.

The very same coward political hacks who mollycoddle you while they sell us and our children out to your every whimper are running scared now.

See the results of these elections and tremble. Tremble much.

They, like you, talk big, but they, like you, are scared to death. And rightly so: They know they are dead wrong in everything, just as you are, and you know it equally well.

Those "judges" and politicians are all thieves and liars like you and yours, Jeff.

But the voters are ANGRY.

The winds of change, Jeffrey.

You are correct about this one thing, though, Jeff:

ALL IN DUE TIME, NEPHEW. ALL IN DUE TIME.

“In due time their foot shall slip …”

Don't worry, Camber
The long arm of the law is more powerful than the short fuse of conservatives. A few more court cases and same-sex marriage will be legal in most states, then all 50. People can keep voting to discriminate against gay people but the growing body of legal protections, such as recent hate crimes legislation, combined with the US Constitution’s 14th Amendment Equal Protection guarantee, will fix things in due time.

And so the homosexuals
have attempted to use government to force their
way into a straight celebration. Now they're upset
that the straights used government to kick them out.
Jews don't ask for a Jew friendly Christmas or Easter.
They've got their own celebrations and institutions.
In light of the Maine vote, isn't it time for adults
with homosexuality to concoct their own celebration.
The homosexuals I know are very bright and creative.
Let us now create a word for man/man commitment.
And a word for woman/woman commitment.
Like always, in Maine, marriage is a multi-gender endeavor.

50%
For popular approval of man/man marriage, better that 50% caucasian non-baptist protestantism is a necessity.

If same-sex marriage can't win in Maine, it cannot win anywhere.

Perhaps it is time for folks with homosexuality to create their own celebration. Why the obsession with straight approval?

The Maine Referendum
After an early lead by the pro-gay marriage forces who outspent the other side almost 2-1, the pro-traditional marriage side is winning by about 52 to 47. The rural precincts are overwhelming the earlier returns from Portland and the south coast. The fat lady hasn't sung yet, but she's warming up. We'll see for sure tomorrow.

What's On TV At The WH?


NBC's "The Biggest Loser" is at the White House tonight. This is not a joke.

about 2 hours ago from web
jaketapper
Jake Tapper

Betty
Two out of two is a very bad record. I don't think heterosexual marriages in his family have the same one hundred per cent failure rate, do you?

Chuck
Thanks, Chuck.

Roy
Roy
Location: WV
Reply # 5
Date: Nov 3, 2009 - 8:10 PM EST Jeffery has a RIGHT to be WRONG!!
I have personal knowledge of two such marriages (by way of Hawaii, I recall) in my extended Family.. Neither lasted six months..Hard to second-guess GOD onthis matter..CHEERS

*************************

Hmmmm.....lots of heterosexual marriages last less than 6 months. What do you attribute that
to?

Bob
Point taken.


Chuck - A Second Observation
"If that is not our benchmark for determining who we are in fellowship with and who we are not, what is?" If this were a thread about who we are in fellowship with, I would agree with that. William, a well known goblin, introduced the subject because he knew it would divide orthodox Christians from Mormons and others. He doesn't even believe in Christ, let alone the Trinity. It was a trick to divide people who are against polygamy into warring camps. He's done it before. The success of his strategy can be clearly shown by the fact we are having this discussion instead of fighting polygamy.

If we are fighting polygamy, I am not going to argue about who we are in fellowship with as Christians. I am going to argue about polygamy.

Chuck
I would like to put the people who do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in the position of defending what they believe. That is usually the best way to show the shortcomings of the alternate explanations. Unfortunately, there is no good way to do that or to properly describe the Trinity in the short form available to us here. It's like trying to describe the Atonement by tweeting. Just telling a person he's wrong isn't very effective. Nontrinitarian concepts of God are like socialism-- very simple, very easy to explain, and very wrong. The Trinity is the solution you arrive at after you have seen the flaws in the alternative adoptionist or other Christologies.

Bob
I understand the impulse to prefer a nonjudgemental approach to things but there are, in our faith, some non-negotiables and the early Church Fathers apparently did not hold the same reservations about who was or was not saved based on the doctrines they held.

If that is not our benchmark for determining who we are in fellowship with and who we are not, what is?

Jeffery has a RIGHT to be WRONG!!
Jeffery ("I am not a Homosexual") has a right to believe anything he so desires as long as he/she/it doesn't insist on either my participation and/or concurrence!!

Mother of 4 presents the most reasonable dialog I have read on the subject..Frog makes an interesting statement Regarding the apparent ambiguity of ones' Religious beliefs vis-avis anothers "Legal Rights"

As to the "right of a Man to *Marry* a Man--GO FOR IT!! Just don't expect me to tolerate it much less condone it!! I have personal knowledge of two such marriages (by way of Hawaii, I recall) in my extended Family.. Neither lasted six months..Hard to second-guess GOD onthis matter..CHEERS

Betty
"Do you hate him as much as you hate yourself?"
Are you still characterizing any disagreement with your beliefs as hate? How jejune.

Mrs. Shoo-fly
Ummm, don't you have a gay son? Do you hate him as much as you hate yourself?

QUEERIAGE

Hey, those of you with a birth defect, try another word, MARRIAGE is already taken.

Here is one you could use, it is not found too often these days.

QUEERIAGE

Chuck
As I said, I support the Trinity because the alternatives are worse and lead to various seriously flawed varieties of religion, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians, to name just two of the many. I see no reason to discard it because there is no logically or scripturally compelling reason to reject it. However, I am not going to set up a doctrine as the final decision of who a Christian is because I'm not the person who makes that decision. God is. I am not.

Bob, additionally,
there are points Christians may differ on. God's nature is not one of them.

Bob
I disagree with him on it as well, but because the Scriptures and the letters of the Apostles indicate it.

cbd1138
Sarcasm in an interfaith dialog concerning relevant issues?


cbd 1138
I disagree with you on the Trinity for the reason that the alternatives are worse. However, that is a point Christians may differ on. Willie is always lecturing me on theology. I have an M.Div and a D.D., but he is ever eager to correct my many errors. He is truly a legend in his own mind.

Wise William in WA
"Christianity requires a belief in a Triune God"

Oh that's right, the shamrock...Jesus sent himself to earth, pick himself to be savoir, and Jesus' ventriloquist act at his own Baptism, and Jesus in the Garden praying to himself, and on the Cross talking to himself, Jesus forsaking himself, and He being his own Father and own Son and a Spirit and telling the Apostles that after he leaves the Holy Spirit will come, errr...I mean he will come back as a spirit after her was resurrected and showed off his resurrected body, not to mention all the titles of the new and old testiment that get all jumbled up if the 3 distinct entities were really just one shapechanger or something. Man Jesus and the Father love the 3rd person then. Got it, thanks William again for telling me again God's will on how I should worship him. Are you sure you aren't a prophet?

According to William the Apostles and Saints are also God per Jesus' prayer in John 17:21. - “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” I guess that doesn't mean one in will or purpose but one physically.

Feminism
If you like Phyllis Schlafly, may I suggest googling "No Bull Mom."

William
"Nor will it be BAB." I never claimed to be God, Willie. I'm merely his prophet.

Fred, et al's "logic"
Good grief.

Imagine when they get REAL power.

You know what strikes...
...me funny? During the primaries, I heard this chatter about whether Romney would legalize polygamy should he become president, what with his polygamist ancestry. Many of those same people who voted against him in the primaries harbored this lurking fear. In retrospect, what did that get them? John McCain. And what did John McCain get them? Barack Obama. And what did Barack Obama get them? Czars and advisers who advocate polygamy. It sounds to me like a shot in the foot.

You know, you would have had an easier time keeping polygamy under wraps with that darn Mormon, Mitt Romney in the White House than with who you have now. Heck, he wouldn't have been able utter the word "poly" without calls for impeachment.

wally in Utah. Have you not read very
many of Joseph Smith's words? But anyway, Christianity requires a belief in a Triune God, forbids any human being from being a God, requires a belief that one only descended from and returned to Heaven. But that One was not Joseph Smith. Nor will it be wally. Nor will it be BAB.

Once you open it up
Once marriage is more than oneman/onewoman then why stop with just two? This is the inevitable course we are on. Read Brave New World again. The government encourages promiscuity (in fact, any kind of monogamy is frowned upon) in order to destroy the family. This allows government to have fuller control of people's lives.

It's where we're headed.

Bad Albino Bob

Oh, come on. Let's make Fred tell us, if he can come up with a description, which I doubt. Methinks one would have to be John Holmes.

Fred
Sophomoric logic is not a sufficient cause to throw the central institution of human society into the trash to please a few people who engage in dangerous, unnatural, and disgusting practices.

Viva la Revolucion!
"How do two gay men have missionary position sex?" Trust me on this. You don't want to know.

Fred

How do two gay men have missionary position sex?


Do tell.

Wally, the Logic Challenged
Since a marriage between a gay couple is essentially the same as the marriage between the 50% of straight couples who marry and don't have children, my "two kinds of airplanes" analogy is far more accurate than your "airplanes and submarines."

In reality, since some gay couples adopt, gay marriage is actually the same as the majority of straight marriages, and all of the 6 reasons that the (insufferable) Mother of 4 listed as "What is Marriage For?" apply to gay marriages equally with straight marriages. Her list actually makes it plainer than any advocate for gay marriage that the opposition to it is illogical.

Mother of 4 and the USSR
I lived in post soviet Russia right after the fall in the early 90s for a couple of years and marriage or the failure thereof had nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR.

Why is it that most seem to judge the merits or dangers of polygamy by what they see on the news? The freak polygamists in the news have many more issues and problems that are unrelated to polygamy per se. It's like stereotyping all muslims as Bin Laden.

Live free people, but don't tread on others.

Willie Is A Miracle

Willie is a modern, scientific miracle. He is a semi-functioning abortion.

Mother of 4 nad the USSR
Mother, I lived in Russia shortly after the fall of the USSR in the early 90s for a few years, and marriage or failure thereof had nothing to do with the fall of the USSR.

One problem people have is that the only polygamists they see are the ones they see in the news. Those freak polygamists on the news have so many unrelated and deeper issues than polygamy. Those freaks in the news are less reprsentative of the merits or dangers of polygamy per se than William is a model of a loving Christian.

FROG,
Rights can only be secured in a functioning civilization.

Evidence is clear that when marriage fails civilization likewise fails -- see the USSR and the current state of America's inner cities for recent proof and read history for more.

The fight to preserve marriage is nothing less than the fight to preserve civilization itself. And the fight to preserve civilization is to preserve human rights because anarchy and chaos -- where the strongest rule and the weaker serve the ruler -- is the most repressive situation of all.

Polygamy too?
Homosexuality, health care takeover, crap & tax, porkulus, ad nauseum. Oh no, what else!?

It's been almost a year under this regime, so I guess this is not really JUST a nightmare from which I'll wake up.

Getting back to polygamy: Why can't we just deport these "immigrants from Third World countries" who defy our laws? If they want to live here, they should speak our language (ENGLISH!) and live by our laws (which includes not killing their own rebellious "Westernized" children).

William, with all due respect
You just plain don't have a clue. We don't believe that Joseph Smith is a "new last word" and yes we do believe that Jesus Christ is the "Savior of the world and the ONLY name whereby mankind may be saved.

You would do well to learn a little more about the subject before you spout off with such inanities. Are you a prophet that you are the final authority on who may believe in Christ?

I am willing to bet you...
...that if plural marriage WERE ever legalized in this country, that it would happen WITHOUT the help of the LDS Church. In fact, I think we could witness the ultimate irony: plural marriage being GIVEN to the LDS Church without asking. Now, whether or not the LDS Church would take it, I don't know. I just don't see the LDS Church lobbying for its legalization.

William the Wise in WA
And here I thought that being CHRISTian meant follwing CHRIST, believing in Christ's divinity, teachings and mission.

Wow I was way off! I guess it has to do with something much more superficial just like William said. William thank you for letting me know that the heavens are closed and God has forsaken his children since, I suppose, the Apostles were killed off almost 2,000 years ago. At least now I know I shouldn't pray anymore, because it's just a waste of time since Heaven is closed (due to repairs maybe).

cbd 1138
"How is it so many are ignorant, yet still speak authoritatively on these issues? Amazing!" William speaks authoritatively on everything. He tells me about theology, St. Denis about Constitutional law, Gunny about military procedures, and everybody about everything.

There is a Catholic doctrine called 'Invincible Ignorance.' It expresses the idea that some people are so incredibly dense that they are not morally culpable for their ignorance. Willie is our poster boy for the doctrine.

Mother of 4 @ 5:13p
"To say that government should not "pick and choose which behaviors it supports" is ludicrous. The same sentence would delegitimize laws against murder, theft, and contract fraud"

You know, I thought about getting very wordy in defining that statement, but I felt I didn't need to. It should be well understood that ANY BEHAVIOURS THAT VIOLATE ANY OTHER PERSONS LIBERTIES ARE/SHOULD BE ILLEGAL. I'M NOT CONDONING ANARCHY!

"What then do you think government is actually FOR?"

You answered your own question by quoting the preamble, "..to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...". That's it. To secure my rights. Not prevent me from smoking because it's bad for me. Not from eating read meat, chocolate, or drinking sugary drinks because they're bad for me. Not to prevent me from entering into a contract with a "professional" woman because some think it immoral (actually I do also, but among consenting adults...?). Not to punish me by increasing my taxes if I fail to buy a house, or purchase a new car, or buy health insurance, or upgrade my home heating and cooling. Forgive my frustration here, but all that "sheperding" is nothing but boatload of BS.

When the marriage amendment was on the ballot here in KY in 2004, I voted against. My friends from church disagree with me, but I still believe that my position is on firm Constitutional footings.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

wally in Utah. You wander into
another area when you use the words Mormon and Christian as if the first was part of the second. Christianity requires that there be but One Last Word and that that Word is Christ.

Joseph Smith cannot be a new Last Word and, anyway, Mohamed beat him to the spot by 700 years.

Mormon and polygamy
* Mormons (christians) are no more prone to support polygamy than Jews or Christians.

* Jews and Christians both read the Old Testament in which there are many examples of polygamy.

* The Book of Mormon has no examples of polygamy.

* The LDS Church (Mormons) haven't practiced polygamy since the 19th Century.

* LDS Church members would be excommunicated for practicing polygamy.

Even I in Cali knows these things. How is it so many are ignorant, yet still speak authoritatively on these issues? Amazing!

Mother of 4,
You say "The sudden interest of lefties in small government is nothing but a red herring."

Not only is it a red herring, it is a BARE-face LIE! If there is one thing lefties have shown themselves to be for it is TOTAL GOVERNMENT. Government is the leftie's GOD. It is where they put their faith. Government can take care of all that is wrong with the world. Just consider the present attempt to have government take over health care and solve (non-existant)anthropogenic global warming.

As for freedom, it is not enough that society should PERMIT sexual perversions, they are all bent out of shape because we do not also APPROVE of their conduct thus they jump to the conclusion that if we do not approve, we must therefore hate them.

And they talk about logic?

FROG,
"But by endorsing marriage and giving real benefits to those who participate in marriage, it is tacit punishment for those who choose to not marry. No government should have the power to pick and choose which behaviors it supports."

What then do you think government is actually FOR?

To say that government should not "pick and choose which behaviors it supports" is ludicrous. The same sentence would delegitimize laws against murder, theft, and contract fraud.

I believe, along with the Founders that, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."

Rights can only be secured in a civilized society. Marriage is the primary tool that defends civilization against barbarism. And we are never more than one generation from barbarism.

This is why government have always recognized marriages, defined who was eligible for marriage, established consequences for failing to uphold marriage vows, and enacted policies favoring marriage over other possible human relationships.

This is why marriage has never been a private matter but has always been a matter of the public interest. Even the ancient Egyptians, who had no religious or civil marriage ceremony, nevertheless recognized a marriage as essentially different from other relationships and punished adultery.

A government that does not, first and foremost, defend civilization against barbarism is an illegitimate government. Policies encouraging -- not mandating, but encouraging and rewarding -- marriage are not merely legitimate but are actively desirable because of the primary role that marriage plays in the continuation of civilization.

western bondbeam ...
we sacrifice that glue everyday. Via the freedom's acknowledged by our Constitution, our freedom and our safety is constantly on a precipice. For examply, are you willing to forgo many of your liberties for safety if, or when, we are attacked by terrorists? Are you willing to allow great leniency toward the government in abridging Constitutional rights under the guise of greater safety?

I'm a firm believer that, given the truth, the majority of the people will make the right decision the majority of the time. We have always had the selfish among us who seek only their own carnal satisfaction. Tolerating the few amoral among is far greater than throwing away liberty in the name of moral indignation.

My position may not be very popular, but I believe it aligns with the Constitution.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Independent Voter
"The vast majority of homesexual marriage cases have been settled by electoral vote." Electoral vote? You mean in the electoral college? No, most have been settled by courts, legislatures and then overturned by popular vote. If Maine affirms gay marriage by popular vote today, it will be the first time. It's hard to say vast majority when there have only been a handful of instances. " The people have decided by the vote." They certainly did in California. Elsewhere, it is the legislature or court that has decided. "A majority is necessary to change the law." A majority of what? The people? The legislature? The court? Laws are changed by all three without there being a majority of the people in favor.

In short, your assertions are confused, inaccurate, and just plain untrue. Try again. Thanks for playing.

LuLu
"marriage is not primarily about the protection or creation of children then incest should be perfectly legal." - notice I spoke about morality and not legality. Personally I am against same sex relations for moral reasons, philosophical reasons, and biological reasons. None of those reasons compel me to flatly rule out polygamy (P), whereas they do compel me to oppose things like homosexuality (H), bestiality (B), & even incest (I).

Evolutionary dead end: H, B & I (down the road)
Form & Function don't fit: H & B
Against God's law: H, B & I

Polygamy doesn't fall into the same pit falls as H, B &/or I. Polygamy still promotes evolution/species propagation. Polygamy is still sex between a man and a women. Polygamy was widely practiced throughout various times by God's people like Abraham.

I guess Govt should make adultry illegal if polygamy is illegal. Personally I want smaller Govt and Govt out of our lives more rather than less. Govt should not legislate morality; that's the slippery slope to tyranny. Unless someone is abusing someone else's rights, life or property then Govt should not be involved in personal affairs.



William, I agree in principal but...
Your contention that the ACLU will have natural allies in "the Mormon Community" is without basis in fact. No doubt they will have a few allies in the APOSTATE "Fundamentalist" Mormon community but if I (as a "Mormon")were to marry a second wife (while my first wife is alive) I would be EXCOMUNICATED! THROWN OUT ON MY EAR! In our view polygamy had its time and purpose and that has passed. There are 13 million Mormons and very few so called "Fundamentalist Mormons". The vast majority of Mormons have no more desire to practice plural marriage than the average person of any other Christian religion.

Re: the state constitution, it already has such a clause dating back to Utah's becoming a state.

Small-Government a Red Herring,
The sudden interest of lefties in small government is nothing but a red herring.

The state has a legitimate interest in enacting social policies that favor behaviors which the favor the survival of civilization.

This is not the same thing as mandating those behaviors -- which would be a violation of America's founding principles of freedom. People remain free to choose non-optimal behaviors.

Not all that is immoral needs to be illegal. Not all that is beneficial needs to be imposed by government force.

Freedom *permits* people to engage in non-optimal relationships and to form non-optimal, unstable, "families" that fail to transmit, on a individual and social level, culture and prosperity to the next generation. But there is no reason for society to *encourage,* via the enactment of policies, non-optimal behavior.

But left-liberals operate on the principle that anything which is not explicitly permitted must be forbidden and anything that is explicitly permitted must be mandatory.

Freedom is a little messier.

In a free society people have the right to be wrong. And people who are right retain the right to tell people who are exercising their right to be wrong that they are, indeed, wrong. Freedom does not obligate anyone to pretend that immoral behavior is moral merely because it is legal.

And it does not obligate governments to pretend that behaviors which act against the continuation of civilization are the same as the behaviors that favor the continuation of civilization.

Mike,
"Just playing devil's advocate here because I'm curious how you would respond - what is your response to the homosexual lobby's argument that legalizing same-sex marriage is equivalent to the legalizing of interracial marriage?"

What we call "race" -- which has no firm biological or genetic basis -- is a matter of mere surface characteristics. Sex is a matter of fundamental differences in biology. Not mere anatomy either, but the even deeper differences in the genetic code.

The ban on inter-racial marriage was a short-lived aberration in the American south -- a wart on the institution of marriage which was, on a historical scale, promptly removed.

Its completely irrelevant to the fundamental nature of marriage as a permanent binding of man and woman.


Mother of 4, that is an understatement
Although Obama may not endorse every single VIEW of the people he brings into his administration, the AGENDA of the people he brings in is an entirely different matter.

The fact is, he has surrounded himself with a bunch of radicals who have, for the most part, very similar VIEWS and AGENDAS.
They are:
Anti-Family
Anti-U.S. Constitution
Anti-individual freedom
Anti-personal responsibility
Anti-capitalist

For:
Big government
Central control
Special privlege for a few
Total control by a few

If and when Obama and his gang of misfts
make a determined drive to push polygamy upon us they'll hve natural allies in the Mormon community.

When a very few years ago arizona failed to pass an amendment to its constitution defining marriage as between one man & one woman (just as 23 other states did so) the failure was largely due to the large number of Mormons voting against the proposed amendment, evidently because they retain a lingering hope to restore polygamy.

Likewise, Utah, generally very conservative in regard to social issues has not had a serious effort mounted to amend its state constitution to define marriage as between one man & one woman.

For an effort to include beastiality look no further than California: doubtlessly some whacko out there will claim he has the right to "marry" his cat, goat or dog.

Just as abortion opened the door to a massive disrespect for human life in general, to euthanasia, assisted suicide as well as abortion, so too does permitting homos & lesbians to marry debases traditional marriage, opening it to all sorts of horrors.

inde
"Since polygamous marriage has no constituency, the chances of it becoming legal as slim to none." Once the principle is established that marriage doesn't mean one man and one woman, it isn't a matter for a legal constituency, but for the courts. The ACLU is already in the wings and publicly stating that it will defend polygamous marriage. Gay marriage also has a tiny constituency given that gays are around 2.5% of the population and only a small percentage of them want to get married. Still, they seem to be doing all right.

We heard the same tired old argument about a drive for gay marriage being ridiculous and just a conservative fantasy back in the days when they were working for an end to the sodomy laws, too. Whoever was foolish enough to believe that then (like me) has been educated enough not to believe identical claims about polygamous marriages now.

Social Conservatives Are Fools
The vast majority of homesexual marriage cases have been settled by electoral vote. The people have decided by the vote. A majority is necessary to change the law.

Since polygamous marriage has no constituency, the chances of it becoming legal as slim to none. Do you understand?? Whoever said there are 500,00 polygamist in America is lying. Where is there proof?

There will never be polygamous marriage because only a handful of people practice it. The same goes for betstiality, marrying household furniture, and any other perversion you can to name.

This is a strawman argument designed to appeal to your fear.

lulu. There is just this
little matter of logic. Gay marriage as a legal concept is being tried in public by a process that is transparent. Some speak for; some speak against. The registered voters act. The issue in this place is either aye or nay.

You joke if you think that any group is going to come forward and argue for a right to practice incestuous relations; or polygamous relations. The concepts are being used against conservatives now, being nothing but distractors.

Jeffery,
"Straight people have the right to marry who they want."

This is the point upon which you have been repeatedly defeated.

Normal people have to obey EXACTLY the same rules about marriage that perverts do.

Anyone who wishes to marry must marry a consenting, adult, non-relative of the opposite sex who is not already married to someone else.

No one can marry someone who doesn't consent.
No one can marry a child.
No one can marry a close relative.
No one can marry a person of the same sex.
No one can marry someone who is already married to someone else.

And no amount of whining on your part is going to change the fact that the only thing preventing a pervert from marrying is his/her CHOICE to refuse to find a partner who meets those criteria.

Nonsense, doc,
"Obama does not endorse the agenda of everyone he brings into the administration."

When a president brings a person into his administration that act is an endorsement of that person's views.

Obama himself said to judge him by the people he surrounds himself with.

The verdict of that judgment is nutcase radical no matter how you try to spin it.

Jeffery,
" you forgot to list “the consenting person of your choice.” Straight people have that right."

I didn't forget anything.

No one, normal or pervert, has the right to marry anyone of his/her choice.The person of choice must meet certain criteria.

Everyone, normal and pervert, may marry a person who meets those criteria and may not marry a person who doesn't meet them. The rules are exactly the same for everyone.

Jeffrey,
" you forgot to list “the consenting person of your choice.” Straight people have that right."

I didn't forget anything.

No one, normal or pervert, has the right to marry anyone of his/her choice.The person of choice must meet certain criteria.

Everyone, normal and pervert, may marry a person who meets those criteria and may not marry a person who doesn't meet them. The rules are exactly the same for everyone.

Jeffrey,
" you forgot to list “the consenting person of your choice.” Straight people have that right."

I didn't forget anything.

No one, normal or pervert, has the right to marry anyone of his/her choice.The person of choice must meet certain criteria.

Everyone, normal and pervert, may marry a person who meets those criteria and may not marry a person who doesn't meet them. The rules are exactly the same for everyone.

The Slippery Slope
1 Gay Marriage
2 Polygamy
3 Abolition of Consent Laws (pedophilia)
4 Bestiality
5 ????

Fred, speaking of logic...
Using your analogy... changing the definition of airplane to include submarines does not make a submarine into an airplane.

As recorded on RZIM
"Polygamy is Greek for a tip".

("tip" -- British slang for landfill)

FROG
Here's a glimpse of what will be headed our way regarding age of consent laws.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/ 4949555/Harriet-Harman-under-attack-over-bid-to-water-down- child-pornography-law.html

Among the groups affiliated to NCCL were the Paedophile Information Exchange and Paedophile Action for Liberation, whose members argued openly for the abolition of the age of consent. NCCL complained to the press watchdog about their treatment by tabloid newspapers and said in one article: “We support any organisation that seeks to campaign for anything it wants within the law. They have that right.”

In NCCL’s official response to the Government’s plans to reform sex laws, dubbed a “Lolita’s Charter”, it suggested reducing the age of consent and argued that “childhood sexual experiences, willingly engaged in, with an adult result in no identifiable damage”. It claimed that children can suffer more from having to retell their experiences in court or the press.

Funky "Cunk" Tater
This dim bulb says "If the traditional definition of marriage is changed by legal precedent or legislation, then marriage in the traditional sense will no longer have any meaning." Absolutely without any foundation.

It's like his saying that if we allow the traditional definition of airplane to apply to craft with jet engines as well as those with propellers, then flying in the traditional sense will no longer have any meaning.

We get it that you hate gay people, but we had hoped that you didn't hate logic as well.

No William I am being
intellectually honest. Once marriage becomes defined as an official designation for adults that want societal benefits based upon their feelings for an individual or even multiple people it ceases to be marriage as we have known it and the current laws against incest and polygamy make no sense.

I would argue that your apparent aversion to incest is that you find it gross -- well many people find homosexual unions gross so this is not a legitimate argument if one supports homosexual marriage. Heck I find my brother-in-law gross but could not stop my sister's wedding on these grounds.

At that point you are reduced to religion -- again thrown out with homosexual marriage, tradition -- thrown out, or the wellbeing of children -- thrown out.

I would argue that polygamy and incest are more legitimate than homosexual marriage as the people involved can reproduce and both have been practiced throughout human history. As a matter of fact both are still commonly practiced in many parts of the world.

Incidently...
The word "polygamy" simply means "more than one sexual partner". Taken literally, it must be one of the most common crimes ever committed!

That is very different from those people in the mid 1800s who accepted the RESPONSIBILITY of supporting more than one wife because they were asked to do so (as was the case with my great-grandfather).

lulu in Virginia. How about you
write up a petition and go about your neighborhood, then your precinct, then your city, county, State etc and get your idea into law? You've not advanced any thoughtful answer.

William, you ask
"Has the ACLU appeared in Phoenix to defend Jeffs"?

They might do that were it not for the fact that Warren Jeffs is not charged with "polygamy" but with child abuse. What he did was contribute to forcing an under-aged girl into a so-called marriage with a married man several years her senior.

Polygamy is very rarely prosecuted in this country because the so called marriages are contracted in a private ceremony without a license or any legal sanction. In that respect, it is legally no different than unmarried people "shacking up". When is the last time you heard of someone arrested for "Shacking up"?

Bigamy is a different matter. It is usually done without the knowlege or consent of the first partner and is an act of fraud against both the first partner and the state.

FROG
You can't have it both ways. Are you willing to sacrifice the glue of society in exchange for more liberty...even if that means risking that same liberty in which you are wanting to protect?

cbd1138
incest is not a red herring the taboo against it is primarily religious.

if you decide that homosexuals can marry because you can not base law on religion, public opinion, or (and this is used in the homosexual argument) that marriage is not primarily about the protection or creation of children then incest should be perfectly legal.

As it is some states allow first cousins to marry others do not.

The point is that if a society chooses to define marriage as a convenience for benefits and a relationship based solely on the wishes and feelings of adult participants then incest should be acceptable and it is intellectually dishonest to say that it is different in any way.

"Religious stuff only applies...
...to those who believe it." So sayeth Jeffery of Mi, from the book of "Mi-way or the Hi-way." "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me" - so sayeth the Creator of the Universe. What do you worship, Jeffrey?


[Mother of 4: Spot on, as always.]

Gov owns body parts?
We need to get rid of Cass Sunstein just like we did with Van Jones. Sunstein is an idiot and a danger to this country.

BAB at 221pm you repeat
the same stuff that you had posted before. My query: when in time in what court did the ACLU defend a polygamist? Has the ACLU appeared in Phoenix to defend Jeffs?

It is not likely that you will ever find yourself pinched by the law in a way that can be escaped only by evidence of violation of a Constitutional right on the part of the law.
But, BAB, if you do, the NRA will not be your best choice for a defender even if you do have a speed loader.

Lib at Heart, you said:
"Conservatives claim to be for smaller, less-obtrusive government, but they really want big government too."

Could you please cite an example of your statement.

Lib at Heart
Schlafly's position does not increase the size or power of government. One of the inherent powers of government the regulation of marriage, and has been since ancient times.

Whether gay marriage or polygamy is permitted or not has no impact on whether the government is regulating marriage.

What a red-herring.

cbd 1138
In the first platform of the Republican Party, polygamy and slavery were defined as "barbaric remnants of a savage past." Nothing has changed in the last 153 years to overthrow that statement.

cbd1138
While I agree that polygamy and incest are different issues, you are making the assumption that the state has the right to dictate what risks are acceptable in terms of birth defects. It is not illegal for pregnant women to drink or smoke, nor for two MS carriers to marry.

Plus, if it a gay incestuous marriage, there is no chance of offspring.

Marriage is a public, not private institution, by definition. Therefore the state does have the right to decide which sorts of unions will be recognized and which won't. The exception would be inter-racial marriage, since the 14th Amendment bans racial discrimination, and there is no functional difference between races like there is between sexes.

Mother of 4 @ 10:43a
As I stated previously, in my personal life, I agree with everything you posted. Earlier this year, my wife and I celebrated our 25th year of marriage. I believe whole heartedly in the marrital institution.

Still, I have problems with government at any level sponsoring and endorsing behaviors it likes and punishing those it doesn't. I fully understand the benefits marriages give to society. But by endorsing marriage and giving real benefits to those who participate in marriage, it is tacit punishment for those who choose to not marry. No government should have the power to pick and choose which behaviors it supports. Laws should be just for everyone. That is what I believe was intended in the Fourteenth Amendment.

I don't want my government sheperding me down the path that it thinks is best for me. They pick the winners and the losers by the by which policy's are given financial favor. I think that's wrong.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Lib At Heart
"They just want it to focus on different issues." I'm glad you're just fine with polygamy and would not make it illegal. Actually, it already is illegal in every state of the union. Of course, you are against enforcing these laws since you are such a strong supporter of individual rights.

If you think polygamy is a good idea, see how it operates on the Strip and elsewhere. Then tell me how every freedom loving American needs to stop bothering these poor people and give them their rights.

William
My apologies, William. The support of the ACLU for polygamy is known to everyone who follows the issue and pays even the least bit of atttention to it. OF course you know nothing about it. Here's one reference. There are plenty more, "In a little-reported speech by ACLU President Nadine Strossen at Yale University earlier this year, she stated that the ACLU has “defended the right of individuals to engage in polygamy.” According to the Yale Daily News, Strossen said that the ACLU defends the “freedom of choice for mature, consenting individuals,” to make whatever marriage arrangements they wish. She claims that the ACLU is the “guardian of liberty” and a defender of “the fundamental rights of all people.”


A perfect example
This column is a perfect example of what the conservative movement is all about. Conservatives claim to be for smaller, less-obtrusive government, but they really want big government too. They just want it to focus on different issues.

Mother of 4, YOU ARE RIGHT
Your comments are thought provoking and, for the most part, right on target.

The present laws do not prevent people from engaging in whatever perversions they choose. So why the fuss? Simply that they know that they are wrong and they want society to approve of their conduct to aswage their feelings of guilt and inadaquacy.

The real motive is to destroy the family as the basic unit of society.

Jeffrey apparently does not realize that the United States is NOT strictly speaking a "secular" country. The mere fact that the constitution bans a "state church" doesn't in any way mean that the state must deny the existance of God; just that the state cannot take sides as to which church or churches are legitimate and which are not.

As for the statement that "heterosexual people can marry the person of their choice but homosexual people can not"... How silly! I am heterosexual but I can't marry another man or my sister or my daughter. The fact is that homosexuals DO have the same rights as heterosexual people and THAT is what they don't like.

Jeffrey, you said:
"Straight people have the right to marry who they want, that’s the issue."

Actually, you're wrong. Straight folks can only marry unwed adults of a gender different than their own. A man cannot marry a man because marriage in your state is a multi-gender endeavor. A man cannot marry a man in Maine...Oh wait, we'll see later.

every1-- in MA. You know,
Pal,you will never know that I have gone to Temple and have obtained approval for my nine "spirit wives". We are Latter Day sister and brother in Christ times nine as far as our neighbors know. Except BAB. He knows.

So just leave us alone.

BAB, you quote the president of ACLU
"has defended polygamy". You show no case reference, no evidence to support the fact of such defense.

And when, BAB, has the ACLU ever controlled a State attorney general in a State like Arizona?

And, BAB, the worst possible events that you can think of will never be issues subject to a vote. Using them as talking points is not useful to conservatives.

I would like to improve momX4 definition

If you want to get married you have the exact, same right as everyone else to marry a person who is:

1. Consenting. No one, normal or pervert, may marry anyone who does not consent.

2. Adult. No one, normal or pervert, may marry anyone who is underage.

3. Non-relative. No one, normal or pervert, may marry a close relative.

4. Unmarried or in a marriage that is or
allows plurality. No one, normal or pervert, may marry someone who is already married to someone else or married to someone whose
partner(s) do not consent to another
partner.

The rules should be the same for everyone.

Bob
Thanks for your answer.

I am not sure how that would be the case if it was legalized.

Of course, those communities already exist w/o
plural marriage existing.

And the threat of lawsuits is something that
exists in many if not all areas of life.

Of course, I believe that these groups should
be belonged to voluntarily and not by force or
the threat of force.

"Just one question-- are you saying that a system like that deserves legal protection and should be legal in order to discredit religious freedom, or are you genuinely defending religious freedom? There's a big difference in how you should be responded to."

I do defend religious freedom, but I have my
limits - for instance human sacrifice should
not be sanctioned. Plural marriage does not
seem to me worthy of sanction.

And fwiw, I think the Reynolds decision was
decided wrongly, but it was decided.

everyonesfacts
Why would polygamy be a social concern rather than a religious concern? Because polygamy is a severe social problem. We have thousands of polygamists in our states, mostly concentrated in the Arizona Strip. If you drive through their towns, you will probably be followed by people who are not so much concerned with you as to discover who might possible want to contact you. We are unable or unwilling to arrest them for it because we have been assured by the ACLU that the lawsuit would be horrendously expensive.

Within these communities, all property is controlled by a self-perpetuating inner circle that punishes any dissent or even inconvenience by expelling the person from the community penniless, regardless of the decades of work he may have put into it. Since there are no converts, most of their young men are thrown out into society with no work or social skills, which creates social problems for everyone else.

Just one question-- are you saying that a system like that deserves legal protection and should be legal in order to discredit religious freedom, or are you genuinely defending religious freedom? There's a big difference in how you should be responded to.

Nobody is talking about polygamy
But then, when Mrs. Schlafly was fighting the ERA her opponents swore up and down that nobody was talking about gay marriage, and that Schlafly was paranoid for suggesting that that was on the feminist agenda.

small government please
Government should be in the business of defining marriage about as much as it should in the business of defining baptism; in other words not in the business at all.

It's also disingenuous to equate incest to polygamy. Incest is a red herring in this discussion. For instance, children of polygamists do not have an unfair and increased chance of birth defects due to no fault of their own. Incest is more morally equatable to a mother using drugs while pregnant.

Not sure how being anti-plural marriage
is a conservative issue.

It would seem to me being for it would be the
conservative stance on two grounds:
1) keeping government out of personal affairs
2) keeping government out of religion (this is different than keeping religion out of government)

Any help?

The one and only

That would have been a lot of fun years ago, except there was one and only one Sweetie, anyone else would have been … … … 

Thank you Mother of 4
Your posts have been some of the most lucid reasoning on this issue that I have yet seen. You need to be writing on this site - and not only in the comments section!

Just playing devil's advocate here because I'm curious how you would respond - what is your response to the homosexual lobby's argument that legalizing same-sex marriage is equivalent to the legalizing of interracial marriage?


William
" . . . if a majority can be found to approve alternate forms of marriage, as a loyal American, you would welcome them to your neighborhood." As a loyal American, I would do no such thing. If a majority can be found to approve human sacrifice and cannibalism, as a loyal American you would welcome them to your neighborhood, wouldn't you?

We have polygamy here. It's repressive, exploitative to women, relies on casting out well over half of the young men who come of age every year (which alone creates great social problems), and should be abolished by police action to enforce our existing laws. Of course, as a liberal you approve of all things which threaten the social structure, so of course you are for that, too.

Dear Old Heart. Is it so that
a Court of some kind has ordained whatever is the issue in Maine? Or approved a law in Washington State that allows registration as a domestic partner couple? And the couple need not be same sex in Washington state.

And Republicans will protect us?

Phyllie, dear old Heart. Exactly what
power to effect legislation do those you mention have? And both Arizona and Texas have active polygamy practitioners today.

And what is the "body parts" card doing in this article, old Heart?


and, BAB, if a majority can be found to approve alternate forms of marriage, as a loyal American, you would welcome them to your neighborhood.

Polygamy and the ACLU
The president of the American Civil Liberties Union says polygamy is among the "fundamental rights" that her organization will continue to defend.

During a question-and-answer session after a speech at Yale University, ACLU president Nadine Strossen stated that her organization has "defended the right of individuals to engage in polygamy," There's plenty more where that came from, too, but I'm not going to cut and paste it. You can have the fun of researching this treasure trove yourself.

So, are all you pro gay marriage posters who ridicule us for saying that polygamy isn't the obvious next step lying or ignorant? Choose one or both. There are no other options.

Frank
"Since you christians are so fond of using Leviticus to justify your insane bias and homophobia . . ." Speaking of insane, Frank, how are you feeling? You aren't paying attention again. It's leftists who generally post from Leviticus and say that we are 'bound' by it.

Christians are not bound by the Old Testament rules. A tiny percent of one percent may think otherwise, but the other billion plus Christians know this to be false. Since leftists are liars and delusional, they can't attack Christians for what they actually do, say, think, or feel, but have to make things up.

This lie is getting old and boring. Why don't you entertain us with a new lie that we will be more entertained by? Maybe something on how we are hypocrites for not banning the eating of owls, bats, and lobsters? (Especially all at the same time while wearing a cloth that is half wool and half linen that doesn't have tassels)

Jeffrey's real problem
and why arguing legality is ultimately pointless:


"What dysfunctionality are you talking about?"


LuLu
"Now we see they were right. Next it will be normalizing sex with children. Clearly there is a push to do that."
---------------

Here's a link to NEST foundation documentary that clearly shows a large number of people that might benefit from lowering age consent laws. Playground Movie.

http://www.nestfoundation.org/

Polygamy = Islam?
The true reason the Obama admin. would want to legalize polygamy is Islam, even in a country that once threatened to send the U.S. Army to Utah if the Mormons didn't give it up. Too bad, people back then weren't such history ignoramuses about the mental AIDS of Islam, and their school system didn't fail them like it does now. Where can you learn the key facts of Islam's history and beliefs online fast free and accurate to arm your mind? Try the Historyscoper at http://go.to/islamhistory

Remember
when people who said homosexual marriage would lead to polygamy were told they were crazy or making up strawmen?

Now we see they were right. Next it will be normalizing sex with children. Clearly there is a push to do that.

Also, incest laws make absolutely no sense if homosexual and group marriage are allowed. By what justification? Religion? that's not allowed. It grosses people out -- well that's clearly not allowed either.

FROG, cont.
...

The only reason for government to favor ANY relationship -- rather than favoring no relationships at all -- if that said relationship furthers the continuation of civilization. The permanent binding of man and woman DOES favor that, as explained in detail above. Binding of other combinations of people, whether temporary or permanent, either has no influence on the continuation of civilization or is actively harmful to it. Thus it is not a legitimate use of government power to favor those non-marital relationships as if there were marriages.

There is no human rights issue and no discrimination involved. ANYONE, regardless of so-called "orientation" can marry -- as long as they choose to marry a consenting, adult, non-relative of the opposite sex who is not already married to someone else.

If a person does not CHOOSE to marry a person who fits those criteria they are free to remain unmarried. They are free to associate themselves, romantically or Platonicly, with anyone they choose to associate themselves. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to force them into a relationship they don't want.

The "protections" offered to married people are justified only by the purpose of marriage. Those who CHOOSE not to marry but who prefer relationships that serve other purposes have no right to those "protections" and government has no right to offer those "protections" to those who are not married.

FROG,
Marriage *can* be a religious institution but it is not *necessarily* a religious institution. Nothing I have written on this subject has in any way referenced religion -- except to cite Muslims and mormon-derived cultists (no small m to emphasis separation from the mainstream Mormon church), as examples of the inherent flaws of polygamy.

Marriage as the permanent binding of man and woman has existed in every society, culture, and nation since before recorded history. It existed in the officially atheist USSR (and was re-established after the experimental elimination of marriage caused social collapse), and it exists today in officially atheist, mainland China. The institution cannot be claimed by any one nation, people, or religion.

The purpose and function of marriage is nothing less than the continuation of civilization itself. The breakdown of civilization is the ultimate eliminator of personal freedom -- anarchy always results in oppression by the strongest. Therefore it is legitimate for government to support marriage in the form which best guarantees the transmission of property and values -- including the value of freedom -- from one generation to the next.

Personal freedom is only possible in two situations. First, when a person lives entirely on his/her own without any contact with or dependence on any other person for any purpose. Second, as a member of a civilized society where laws and policies are set up to reward the behaviors that enhance a free society and punish the behaviors that destroy it.

...

social conservatives aren't surprised
This stuff is just more of the same diabolically birthed destruction of Marriage and culture of death the left loves. This is just more evidence that St. Paul was right when he warned (not against liberals and big spenders) but against the powers and principalities that are doing a great job of roaming the world seeking the ruin of souls. As if any society could survive defying God in all that it does. We have bought into abortion, are playing with euthanasia,love to envy the successful, fight for the right for pretend filth is free speech, while calling truth hate crimes. We contaminate our kids and our culture and lie,deceive, or bully, to get and stay elected. We accept and support politians deliberately dividing us against each other, taking over our responsibility to have charity toward each other, to defend life, love our neighbor,and others foolishly fail to see that we are not just one issue voters, but recognize that behind what they do, is pure evil, not just bad politics.

Chuck
“How does adding a further dysfunctionality to the already dysfunctional American marriage help the situation?”

What dysfunctionality are you talking about? How is an institution threatened because more people want to participate in it? I think it’s an odd argument indeed to equate same-sex marriage with adultery and divorce in their detrimental effects on the institution of marriage. If you’re happy that adultery and divorce are legal, and have no intention to change their legal status, it’s bizarre that you could object to a small minority of the population actually supporting marriage by wanting to participating in it!

the Old Testament allows for bigamy
Since you christians are so fond of using Leviticus to justify your insane bias and homophobia, perhaps you should rethink your recent opposition to bigamy. After all, isn't the Old Testament the word of God also?

Scott
Straight people have the right to marry who they want, that’s the issue. Gay people don’t. The choice of marriage partner is a given, subject to consent and age restrictions. There is, in 44 states still, an artificial gender requirement. That’s what this whole argument is about: does it make sense to define marriage as between one man and one woman. Legally and morally, it doesn’t. Religiously, it does, but we don’t use the Bible or other religious texts to make law, and marriage is a legal contract, not a religious contract. Atheists marry all the time; they think they’re doing something via the law, not via religion.

Clearly the law trumps religion when making social policy. Religion is voluntarily entered into; the law is obligatory. People of faith are free to marry only opposite-sex partners, if their faith beliefs require doing so.

Polygamy
Are we surprized that the BUM is anointing ZARS and the such to pass his far Left Radical agenda to communize America ?

Jeffrey
If you will excuse me, I have to go out and cancel out some homosexual's vote here in Maine today.

Jeffrey
"Religious stuff only applies to those who believe it."

True. But reality applies to everyone.

How does adding a further dysfunctionality to the already dysfunctional American marriage help the situation?

Jeffery
I beg to differ, Marriage is a life-long commitment, or it should be, too many find it convenient to walk away from that commitment because the can't handle it.

Second, Heterosexual people don't have the right to marry people of the same sex, so it is obvious that the institution of marriage is equally applied across the board.

I don't believe in re-marriage anymore than I believe divorce. You have no idea what marriage is about, all you see is that somehow a married couple get benefits that non married and freak couples don't. So actually to be honest, to be fair, a hetero couple that choose to live together yet never marry should get those same benefits right???????

WRONG>

Chuck
Jeffrey scribbles out his strawman:

"Or do you believe that only homosexuals must live by biblical marital law, but heterosexuals are free to ignore biblical marital law as they want?"


Comment: What a tool. Homosexuals are being divorced faster than they can marry. The first Mass. same sex couple have been divorced for years. The best information is that close to 50% are being divorced after just a short time, higher than heterosexuals.And many have married for a political purpose.

Jeffrey is NOT a Christian. Jeffrey likes to lecture Christians about how rotten they are, yet Jeffrey and ilk hold to no moral standards whatsoever.

They are their own moral authority and anything goes.

Jeffrey has no credibility lecturing anyone about religion given his outright hatred of it. At least Christians have a moral authority,

Jeffrey has none. That defines him.

jeffie: First of all...

You might be interested to know that this country, the United States of America, was founded by Christians.

And, if you'd like, I can provide countless quotes from the Founding Fathers to PROVE IT!

And believe me, I'd really be happy to do it.

Marriage has ALWAYS been intended to be a life-long commitment.

But thanks to your liberal, amoral, virtueless progressives, our society has been going down the tubes.


Krauthammer / Newsweek polygamy
"As Newsweek notes, these stirrings for the mainstreaming of polygamy (or, more accurately, polyamory) have their roots in the increasing legitimization of gay marriage. In an essay 10 years ago, I pointed out that it is utterly logical for polygamy rights to follow gay rights. After all, if traditional marriage is defined as the union of (1) two people of (2) opposite gender, and if, as advocates of gay marriage insist, the gender requirement is nothing but prejudice, exclusion and an arbitrary denial of one's autonomous choices in love, then the first requirement -- the number restriction (two and only two) -- is a similarly arbitrary, discriminatory and indefensible denial of individual choice."


Comment: Polygamy :brought to you by the Jeffrey types who are here to destroy the family unit as we know it, to satisfy their quest for homosexual power.

As Obama said :to fundamentally transform America.

Chuck
Religious stuff only applies to those who believe it. The Bible also tells Christians they can’t get divorced or commit adultery. And yet they do, a lot! So really, any religious descriptions of marriage are pretty irrelevant, aren’t they, especially in a secular country like the US.

Or do you believe that only homosexuals must live by biblical marital law, but heterosexuals are free to ignore biblical marital law as they want?

Chuck
I was responding to Mother of 4’s belief that marriage is a lifelong commitment. It’s not. The legal system creates a marriage and the legal system has a remedy to dissolve the marriage, called divorce. There is no requirement to stay married for life. Get it, now?

Ford and polygamous homosexuality
Ford backs homosexual polygamy
Pro-family groups protest support of 'gay' magazine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 31, 2006
1:00 am Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily.com

Pro-family groups are chastising the Ford Motor Company for advertising in an edition of a 'gay' magazine pressing for homosexual polygamy.

The cover story of the June 6 edition of The Advocate reads: "Polygamy & Gay Men. Dirty laundry or sexual freedom?"


Another one of the goals of Jeffrey and ilk.

Jeffrey, argue with the Man.
"Matt 19:4-7
He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh.

What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."
RSV

Jeffrey errs again
Codifying selfishness doesn't change its essential characteristic.

Off the NEST FOUNDATION
website.

"For $1,500 you can rent a 10 year old for the weekend. — Portland, Oregon"


jeffie: So what does that have to do

with the point??? N-O-T-H-I-N-G!!

Fundamentally Transforming America!

I can't believe that I was the only one who had chills when on Oct 31, 2008, Barack Hussein Obama said, “We are 5 days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America."

And, when Barack Hussein Obama said...

"If you want to know what my policies are, you have to look to the people I've surrounded myself with."

In case the progressives haven't noticed, Barack Hussein Obama has surrounded himself with KNOWN and ADMITTED Communists.


Please forgive me Chuck
Marriage: a legal union of one man and one woman sustained until one or both chooses to end it.

Marriage still isn’t a lifelong commitment. It’s a commitment so long as both people want it to last.

FROG
"The purpose, then, is to set forth a system whereby those rights are protected in courts of law"
------------
Absolutely.

While I always respect anyone willing to come down on the side of liberty, we must always follow that path with due caution. The can of worms is not so easily sealed back up.


Recently, a stop sign at a not so busy intersection was changed to a yield sign for the purpose of making traffic flow easier on everyone. Over a period of a couple of years though, the accidents at that intersection increased quite a bit. People in the neighborhood noticed this and had to petition to get the stop sign put back in place. What was common sense to all in the neighborhood was oblivious to those sitting on a panel in a room with no windows. Sometimes having a stop sign is a good thing for everyone.

Regarding NAMBLA, Google the NEST foundation for some statistics on the child sex trade in the USA. There are a LOT of folks that most likely would like to lower consent age laws.

A Familiar Subject for O
As Obama is the product of a polygamist union, he probably would endorse legalizing it.

As to the point of it being 'bad for men and good for women', don't be obtuse. These girls--and I do mean girls--are raised to be subservient and married at a very, very young age. Many times, the marriage is to a much older man and is against their will. It's child abuse, plain and simple.

Jeffrey's tortured logic, (again!?)
"Because of legal divorce, marriage is now defined as “the union of a man and a woman until one or both chooses to end the marriage.”

Employing the term one is attempting to define in the definition itself takes it out of the realm of "definition".



Some legal issues
In 1967, in Loving v. Virginia, a unanimous court overturned the laws of more than 20 states that at the time prohibited interracial marriage.

In 1978, the Supreme Court, in Zablocki v. Redhail, vacated as unconstitutional (by an 8-1 vote) a Wisconsin law preventing child-support scofflaws from getting married. The court emphasized, "Decisions of this court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals."

In 1987, in Turner v. Safley, the court, in a unanimous opinion written by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, struck down as unconstitutional a Missouri law preventing imprisoned felons from marrying, holding that marriages were "expressions of emotional support and public commitment. These elements are an important and significant aspect of the marital relationship."

In 2003, Lawrence v. Texas held that states could not constitutionally outlaw consensual homosexual activity. In his dissenting opinion, Justice Antonin Scalia noted that the court's ruling undermined the rationale for any state limitations on gay marriage.

WOW!
The end of traditional marriage is the end of fidelity. In polygamous societies, there are surplus men. These men will be having sex anyway - with your extra wives, probably.

jeffrey from michigan
I wish you could see yourself.

OBAMA
took three woman with him for the Olympic bid. Maybe he is just an overly hen-pecked rooster.

I thought Progressives
were enlightened and leading us out of the life of a barbarian. Were barbarians just too judgemental of others? Is that what was wrong with being a barbarian?

Not Obama...
Obama does not endorse the agenda of everyone he brings into the administration. But Obama is a radical who is using the administration to push his own radical agenda upon America. Obama comes from a circle of radical thought. Everyone he brings into the administration brings their own radical views that they'd like use the administration to push.

As parents, we watch the people our children associate with, and attempt to protect them from from the influences of hanging out with the wrong people. But as adults, the electorate of the nation ignored the associations of who was elected to the presidency. The people have nobody to blame but themselves. The electorate is not composed of children, even if they voted as if they were.

western bondbeam ...
If nothing else, we are a nation of laws. And the supreme law, the Constitution, is unique among all nations laws in that it recognizes that we are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights.

An important distinction is that the Constitution doesn't grant us those rights, it recognizes that those rights existed even before the writing of the Constitution. The purpose, then, is to set forth a system whereby those rights are protected in courts of law.

Anarchy would necessarily be un-Constitutional. Any infringement on another's Constitutionally guaranteed right is a violation of the law.

As for NAMBLA, unless emancipated, those under 18 cannot legally give their consent. Any violation by NAMBLA member's can be resolved with a single bullet. I would not hesitate to pull the trigger.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Satan always attacks
the God-ordained family unit. He is intelligent enough to know that when the family crumbles the neighborhood and larger family crumbles and the nation crumbles. Well balanced people are more easily produced in God's design.

There is no reason
for these people to be bound together in one unit legally. They do not like law. They can live together in a big pile now like dogs and leave the pile whenever they feel like it without overburdening our courts.

Mother of 4
You’ve defeated me? You flatter yourself, and demonstrate your chronic ignorance at the same time. In your faulty list, you forgot to list “the consenting person of your choice.” Straight people have that right. Or was your marriage arranged? Or did you marry the person you wanted to marry?

What are the most important aspects of your marriage? That your partner is the opposite sex? That you love him? That you’re committed to him? That you’re raising children together? That others know he’s off limits and unavailable for them?

I challenge you to tell your husband that you don’t love him, are not committed to him, didn’t really want to marry him in the first place, but since he was of the opposite sex, you consented. You must have quite the dreary marriage indeed.

Conjugating all over the place
I'm sure this is all about getting free healthcare and other stuff.

Mother of 4 ...
In my personal life, I agree with everything you have said. My concern is the slippery slope. Who gets to decide which liberties must be given up and to what end? How many laws must we enact to protect us from ourselves?

I agree with your post above about the purpose of marriage. I just happen to believe that legal unions would give the same protections without defiling the religious institution of marriage.

I'm sorry, but I must come down on the side of liberty. Sometimes that may mean supporting issues that I don't necessarily personally like.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

FROG
Freedom is tricky business.

On one end, we have anarchy. This is total freedom with no regard to laws. On the opposite end of that is tyranny where the fist of law holds all in check out of fear.

Looking at our current marriage laws in that context, I would say we are currently balanced in the middle or about as free as we can get without moving one way or the other.

If we loosen marriage laws and allow polygamy and same sex marriage....we move closer to anarchy. NAMBLA is a real organization after all and they are riding the civil rights trail on the heels of gay rights.




FROG,
That same Cass Sunstein wants to give animals the right to sue people in court.

So don't bet on the idea of " the cognitive ability to understand the terms of the contract," meaning anything relevant in the future.

Actually, Jeffery,
In the second part of your post you do have a legitimate point.

***
“Once you step beyond the definition of marriage as the permanent binding of man and woman…”

We HAVE stepped beyond that definition. Because of legal divorce, marriage is now defined as “the union of a man and a woman until one or both chooses to end the marriage.” There is no longer any pretense to permanency.
***

Which is why marriage advocates are in favor of toughening laws about divorce and restoring fault provisions.

pjarhead @ 6:12 am
With our ever increasing march toward socialism, the government has a vested interest in your health. Should they then be allowed to regulate what you eat and how much excercise you must have?

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Jeffery,
Back again with that same nonsense? I've defeated you on it over and over.

If you want to get married you have the exact, same right as everyone else to marry a person who is:

1. Consenting. No one, normal or pervert, may marry anyone who does not consent.

2. Adult. No one, normal or pervert, may marry anyone who is underage.

3. Non-relative. No one, normal or pervert, may marry a close relative.

4. Unmarried. No one, normal or pervert, may marry someone who is already married to someone else.

5. Of the opposite sex. No one, normal or pervert, may marry a person of the same sex.

The rules are the same for everyone. The fact that some perverts don't want to marry according to the rules doesn't give homosexuals a special privileges to ignore part 5 any more than a stalker has the right to marry his unconsenting victim, a pedophile has the right to marry a child, a incestuous pervert has the right to marry a close relative, or a polygamist has the right to marry people who are already married.

Jim in VA @ 5:25am
The right to enter into a contract with another requires the cognitive ability to understand the terms of the contract.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

The Other Problem With Polygamy,
There is another problem with polygamy, the one that doesn't get as much play as the ESTABLISHED, HISTORICAL, FACT that polygamist societies have always been oppressive towards women.

That other problem being all those men who don't have access to women because a few, powerful men have monopolized them.

Polygamist societies are not only historically oppressive of women but they are also, historically, violent and war-torn.

Part of the civilization-enhancing effect of marriage is that it gets men to settle down and turn their energy to productive use in providing for their families.

Having large numbers of unmarried men is a recipe for social chaos (again see America's inner cities for evidence). Thus the leaders of such societies turn that energy outward -- sending the unmarried men out to steal other men's women instead of attempting to overthrow the leaders to get their women.

Left-liberals, for all their claims to respect "Science", continually deny that biology is real when it comes to the effect of reproductive biology.

Nevertheless, we have not only the historical evidence of what a polygamous society looks like but also the biological evidence of the social structures among naturally polygamous animals. The life of a wild, herd stallion is brutal and his reign over the mares short-lived and violent as he must continually fight to maintain his position.

One of the reasons we have cause to fear China right now is the destabilizing effect of a generation of young, military-age men, who, due to the distorted demographics of the one-child policy, have no hope of marrying.

Think seriously on this.

Speaking of Principles
The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution clearly states that laws cannot favor one group over another. It’s called “Equal Protection.” That means straight people can’t be given the right to marry, but gay people can’t.

“Once you step beyond the definition of marriage as the permanent binding of man and woman…”

We HAVE stepped beyond that definition. Because of legal divorce, marriage is now defined as “the union of a man and a woman until one or both chooses to end the marriage.” There is no longer any pretense to permanency.

Marriage Not About the Adults,
The key point that our culture is missing is that marriage is not about the adults.

Marriage is not about adult companionship and romance -- as desirable as those are, they are merely by-products of a healthy marriage.

Marriage is about the children and about society. The hands-down, indisputable best environment in which to raise children is the one created where a man and a woman commit to each other in a permanent bond and raise their own, biological children. Every time social liberals set out to try to prove that other arrangements are just as good they end up with data showing that marriage is superior.

Additionally, marriage is about the survival of society. Only a committed marriage provides the optimum environment for the orderly transmission of wealth and culture from one generation to the next.

When other, faux-marriage arrangements are in place -- whether the serial polygamy of those who refuse to make a permanent commitment even as they mouth the words of the marriage ceremony, the shacking up of those who openly admit that the relationship will last only until something better comes along, or the unnatural pairing of those who indulge in homosexual perversion -- the benefits to society that marriage provides vanish.

The chaos and anarchy that reigns in the communities where marriage has vanished can't even be described as a descent into barbarism because even the least civilized of barbarians privilege the committed, male-female marriage and make sure that their wealth and culture are transmitted to the biological children of those marriages.

Government has a legitimate role in ensuring that real marriage retains its privileged place in society because the resultant financial and cultural stability benefit everyone in the same way that having a military strong enough to repel invaders benefits everyone.

Independent_voter,
Let me put into very easy language:

It has nothing to do with "demand". It has to do with principles.

If "gay marriage" becomes a right -- based on the idea that "any two loving people should be able to get married," that establishes a principle.

With the principle that its immoral to deny people who are in love the right to marry the bisexuals can then claim, "I love a man and a woman. I should be able to marry both of them." They can make all the same arguments that homosexual perverts now make about how their sexuality is inborn and not a choice and how oppressive it is to demand that they express only one facet of said sexuality.

And with the principle established that some people can have two spouses, muslims, mormon-like cultists, and hedonistic polyamorists would then be able to demand that they too have the right to multiple spouses.

Once you step beyond the definition of marriage as the permanent binding of man and woman you have no moral ground upon which to draw any other line restricting how many people in what combination may marry.

But if any number and combination of people may marry then marriage itself ceases to exist. And if marriage ceases to exist social pathologies multiply to the destruction of civilization -- as is demonstrated by the marriage-free zones in our urban centers.

God's penalty for two wives?
Two mothers-in-law!

Seriously, I'm one of those libertarians Ms. Schalfly reviles. As a Christian, I believe that God ordained marriage. As an American, I believe that all levels of government should be completely neutral WRT religion.

Ms. Schlafly points out the ridiculous positions of Cass Sunstein. She apparently cannot see that her positions are as much an affront to personal liberty as are Sunstein's. Either we own our bodies or we don't. Either government can make rules governing personal choices that don't infringe on someone elses liberties or they can't.

A free society cost more than the blood spilled to keep it free. It sometimes cost us our sensibilities when we have to allow others to do things with their lives that we may not agree with. I think homosexuality is a sin. But the same Constitution that allows me the liberty to worship God as I choose allows others the freedoms I may not like or agree with.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

What is Marriage For? Conclusion
6. Marriage provides for the orderly transmission of both wealth and culture from one generation to the next. The first through financial support AND education while the parents live and through the inheritance of property after the parents die. The second because despite the efforts of government schools and tax policies that often force mothers into full-time jobs children still learn their values at home.

A child raised by his/her married, biological parents is better off by every measure of success than a child raised in any other living arrangement.

Marriage is not for "two adults in a loving relationship". Marriage is bigger and grander and more ambitious. Marriage is for nothing less than the perpetuation of human civilization.

And the social pathologies that accompany family breakdown -- whether this involves never marrying at all or uncommitted marriages resulting in serial polygamy via too-easy divorce -- prove that we need to recapture the proper understanding of marriage if the US is going to survive in any recognizable form.

What is Marriage For? Cont.
...
4. Marriage ensures mutual support through the difficulties of life and the vicissitudes of fortune. Families and extended families assist each other in a myriad of ways that no other community, however well-intended, can duplicate. Friends may have other obligations. Neighbors may not even know each other. But couples, siblings, cousins, and even in-laws are there for each other because that's how families are.

5. Marriage provides beneficial connections to extended family groups. Few things are rarer and more remarkable than for a mere friend or acquaintance, much less a stranger, to help a young couple with the down payment for a house or a car or to provide other financial support to help set a new adult on his/her own feet. Few things could be more commonplace than for family members to do so.

Many people gain their first, valuable work experience that sets them on a lifetime of productive employment in a family member's business. They might not have taken a chance on a completely inexperienced stranger, but since its a nephew, a cousin, or your sister-in-law's sister-in-law the connection makes a difference. The old saying is true -- you don't just marry your spouse, you marry the family.

So we need to recognize that the formation of these social bonds and connections -- things far removed from mere adult companionship -- is part of what marriage is for. Indeed, in many societies, these literal or figurative tribal connections are more critical for the ordering of society than local, regional, or even national politics.
...

What is Marriage For?
The question to ask, in order to provide a solid foundation to all arguments about marriage is this:

What is marriage for?

Is it for adult companionship, pleasure, and convenience? If so, then what we have now -- marriage as a purely optional possibility, lightly entered into, lightly gotten out of, completely divorced from childbearing, and extending as a "right" to any number and/or combination of consenting adults -- is the inevitable result.

If the current situation is not desirable then marriage must have some other purpose than merely as a pleasant possibility to facilitate companionship among adults.

In the traditional understanding of marriage, as practiced by every society humanity has ever produced, marriage is much more -- it is a formal, permantent, legal (and often, but not necessarily, religious), bond between male and female that serves multiple functions.

1. Marriage obligates both biological parents to participate in raising their offspring. This drastically reduces the number of children thrown onto the community to be supported via taxes.

2. Marriage obligates sexual fidelity -- harnessing biological drives and channeling them to productive rather than destructive purposes. This drives down rates of both sexually transmitted disease and the depression and other mental problems which plague the promiscuous as they continually form, destroy, and re-form relationship bonds.

3. As a corollary, by assuring that each child's parentage is known marriage improves the next generation's ability to find suitable, un-related mates and the raising of blood-siblings in the same household makes incestuous attraction unlikely. This is biologically healthy for the human species.
...

Why Polygamy
Answer: Moooslims are allowed to have four wives and how many concubines?

Schlafly is right
The more correct terms, though, are "polyamory," "polyamorous relationship," or "plural marriage." If you do an Internet search for these terms, you will find numerous support sites for groups who practice this. Read what they say... they are awaiting the outcome of legalizing same-sex marriage. They too wish to have legal status.

A Newsweek article this past summer said researchers believe there are 500,000 polyamorous families living openly in the U.S.

When supporters of same-sex marriage laugh off "the polygamy argument" as a red herring, they are trying to deflect it... they know it is real, but don't want you to know. If Americans knew, they would vote down same-sex marriage.

I personally know of one of these families, and they are about as far from Mormon as you can get. Left-wing environmentalist types... everyone sleeps with everyone.

However, townhallers, when you argue making such vile anti-gay references, you just look stupid and undermine your position. You make the case for those who think we need hate-crimes legislation. Keep it clean and make intelligent arguments if you want to change minds.


Just ask
any of these poor kids that have grown up in these communes where they become wives and mother as early teens, just one of many of their "husband's" women, if that's how they would choose to live. We can not even imagine what the human mind can devise when given their "right" to do whatever their sinful nature pleases. We have taken rights way too far. As one poster above said, it's not about "rights" but about what is "right." (or can we even tell right from wrong anymore!?!?)

Don't go there Phyllis
"even though it is totally demeaning to women"

I was surprised to see Phyllis slipping into the feminist mantra that women are victims in all circumstances.

One could easily see that polygamy is bad for men and good for women. If a desirable man with lots of resources voluntarily gathers up a bunch of wives we can assume the women and man are better off. The parties who get the short end of the stick are the men who do not find a mate because other more desirable men took more than one wife.

We need to stop thinking that women are automatically at a disadvantage, or a victim in, all circumstances! Women are not the UNIVERSAL VICTIM.

Why Marriage is of Interest to the State
"The most important consequence of marriage is, that the husband and the wife become in law only one person... Upon this principle of union, almost all the other legal consequences of marriage depend. This principle, sublime and refined, deserves to be viewed and examined on every side." --James Wilson, Of the Natural Rights of Individuals, 1792

why not just call it .......
(1) a biologically productive relationship (2) a non-reproductive relationship and/or (3) a who's your daddy relationship?

The Right to Marry a Dog
Where does it end? Are our pets safe?

Do feminists think polygamy gives them more rights? History proves just the opposite: plygamous societies tend to be most oppressive toward women. Same with today, in mooslum countries that allow the practice.

But then, it's very likely that people like Willy "the Wanderer" Clinton would have quite a number of wives - and concubines as well. Those feminists like Nina Burleigh who offered to pucker up and kneel to honor the Pres' support for abortion would make a fine addition to his stable.

A few disjoint observations
1. If marriage is to mean anything, it must mean _something_.

2. Unfortunately, Cass Sunstein's approach to marriage may eventually prevail. One can argue with some success that the federal government has no business regulating relations among consenting grownups.

Leaving marriage to each state, however, will produce chaos. People married in one state may not remain married if they move, and so on _ad absurdam_. Forcing all states to recognize every state's definition of marriage is no better. In effect, a one-vote majority of the Massachusetts Supreme Court would trump the laws of the other 49 states.

The only alternatives are establishing the traditional definition of marriage at the federal level and obliterating marriage from the law books altogether. The latter would be egalitarian after a fashion. (On the other hand, polygamy tends to create, or at least to be associated with, oppression of women.) It might lighten the burden of governmental intrusion into people's private lives. (On the other hand, rescinding official recognition of the family would push us closer to the totalitarian ideal: deracinated individuals facing the state alone, with no buffer or refuge.) But arguments in favor eliminating marriage get no support from the Constitution. Nothing in that document or in the Founders' papers or speeches suggests that they ever would've countenanced such a radical act.

Further, removing state and federal governments from the issue of marriage would create another variety of chaos. Inheritance, child custody, power of attorney, the age of consent, and many other matters would become unimaginably complicated -- much to the delight of the legal caste. This turn of events would be unfortunate, indeed.

3. It's interesting that Sunstein, Feldblum, the ACLU, et al., are on the same side of the polygamy issue as radical imams who'd gladly have them all killed if sharia were the law of the land.

Marriage "Rights" Not the Question
Marriage "Rights" Not the Question
Homosexual "marriage" legislation is not about anyone's "rights".
Homosexual "marriage" legislation is about defining a new "right" based on a new definition of marriage that replaces the traditional definition of marriage as between a man and a woman.
If the traditional definition of marriage is changed by legal precedent or legislation, then marriage in the traditional sense will no longer have any meaning. People will then have the "right" to construe "marriage" to mean anything that suits their whims; for example:
1) Three people: any combination of men and women
2) Any number of men and women, and in any combination.
3) Adults with children
4) Children
5) Humans with animals
6) One man with a harem of women
7) One man with a harem of men
8) One woman with a harem of men
9) One woman with a harem of women
10) Any combination defined by your imagination.

Gay?
How did the word "gay" become attached to these sad sexual deviants?

Judging from their desperate insistence that they are "proud" of their unnatural desires (viz: "gay pride"), it's quite obvious that deep inside homosexuals are ashamed of their perversions, hence their aggressive agenda to have it legally recognized as normal and legitimate. It's the only way they can feel better about themselves.

What angers me most is homosexuals' insistence on perverting our children in their schools. By brainwashing the kids at an early age they hope to create a generation that will accept such nonsense as same-sex "marriage" without question.

If it works, polygamists and pedophiles will be the next deviants demanding legitimization. Just watch and see.

Practically speaking
Consider the impossibly complicated divorces. Lawyers will love it.

Plural marriage 2
What I mean is its so hard to keep one woman happy...More than that is impossible. I can't imagine listing to complaining in surround sound.

Plural marriage
Any man that wants more than one wife (at a time)deserves it.

Geez
We've been saying this would happen for years. Allow gays the ability to marry and floodgates will open for all forms of vileness.

Polygamist marital
consummation requires no petroleum bi-products
and reproduction doesn't need refridgeration
or plastics. Yeh, more petroleum bi-products.
Stand against same-sex marriage.
Stand against imported oil.

Man/man 'marriage is
historically nonexistent and evolutionarily incomprehensible.

Polygamy has a rich history and is arguably positive in a Darwinian sense.

That's why folks with homosexuality refuse to discuss polygamy.
It can be frightening to face your superior.
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