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Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Yes, Marriage Can Be Saved From the Gay Lobby
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Since the April defeats for traditional marriage in the Iowa Supreme Court, the Vermont Legislature and the Washington, D.C., City Council, Americans in the other 48 states are quietly stress-testing their legal defenses against the spread of legalized same-sex marriage.

The Iowa ruling was particularly shocking. Not one of Iowa's seven supreme court justices, who were appointed by both Republican and Democratic governors over the past 15 years, could identify a valid public purpose for the institution that has guided our civilization for thousands of years.

The unanimity of the decision sets Iowa apart from the seven other states -- Massachusetts, Washington, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, and California -- where state supreme courts have ruled on same-sex marriage since 2003. A majority of the more than 50 state supreme court justices in those seven states had no trouble recognizing the value of conferring public recognition and benefits on the union of husband and wife, as also did lower court judges in Indiana and Arizona.

Unlike the 30 states that added language to their state constitutions supporting the traditional definition of marriage, Iowa does not allow citizen initiatives to go directly to the ballot. The leaders of both houses of the state legislature have refused to allow their members to vote on a marriage amendment, so Iowans now have the difficult task persuading legislators to bypass their own leaders in order to schedule a vote on a measure that polls show two-thirds of Iowans support.

However, a much more critical legal drama began last month in a federal court in Boston. The same law firm that brought gay marriage to Massachusetts is trying to overturn the federal law that protects the traditional definition of marriage in all federal departments, agencies and programs. Left-wing Harvard professor Laurence Tribe praises this lawsuit as a "surgical attack on DOMA," a law he calls "particularly invidious."

The federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) -- signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996 after an overwhelming bipartisan vote in Congress (342-67 and 85-14) -- provides that federal laws must be interpreted in accord with the traditional definition of marriage as the union of husband and wife.

Five years ago, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) counted 1,138 federal laws that refer to marriage, spouse, husband or wife, and DOMA requires these laws to be administered uniformly throughout the nation. DOMA requires that even in states where same-sex unions are recognized, their partners are not recognized as married for purposes of federal law.

Same-sex partners cannot claim the privileges and benefits that Congress makes available to those who are married or widowed. For example, they cannot file joint income tax returns, receive Social Security benefits on their partner's wages, collect life insurance following the death of a military service member or obtain a green card for a partner from another country.

The anti-DOMA lawsuit claims it is unfair and discriminatory that same-sex couples who, they say, are legally married under state law are not recognized as such by the U.S. government. But the federal government must consider the entire nation, including the 43 states whose laws categorically declare that same-sex marriages from other states are not valid and may not be recognized for any purpose whatsoever.

If we didn't have a uniform federal definition of marriage, it wouldn't be long before every state had same-sex couples saying they were "married" in Massachusetts, Vermont or Iowa, and demanding that their "marriages" be recognized by those 1,138 federal laws even after moving to a traditional marriage state.

If judges overrule Congress and the majority of the American people by striking down DOMA, it would be the same type of judicial supremacy that occurred 152 years ago in the famous Dred Scott case. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that once a slave became "property" under the laws of a slave state, that legal status had to be maintained and respected even after the slave was taken to a free state, or even to a U.S. territory where slavery was specifically forbidden by Congress.

In his first campaign for the Illinois state Senate in 1996, Barack Obama wrote: "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages." On his first day as president, the White House Website was updated to declare: "Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100-plus federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally recognized unions."

Will the Obama Justice Department do its duty and defend federal law? Seventy-seven members of Congress wrote to Attorney General Eric Holder on March 24 requesting assurances by April 1 "that you plan to defend vigorously this law in its entirety."

We're still waiting for Holder's response. Americans must preserve DOMA at any cost.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Banning marriage in California
Posted before but well worth posting again. In California an initiative has been taken out by the same sex crowd to BAN MARRIAGE, and replace it with DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIP. Here is the text again:

Allen Hunt : Dumbing Down Marriage - Townhall.com
townhall.com/Columnists/AllenHunt/2009/03/23/..
Here is a text of the filing:

Substitutes Domestic Partnership for Marriage in California Law. Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute.

Summary Date: 03/09/09 Circulation Deadline: 08/06/09 Signatures Required: 694,354
Proponents: Kaelan Housewright and Ali Shams (818) 472-0982

Replaces the term “marriage” with the term “domestic partnership” throughout California law, but preserves the rights provided in marriage. Applies equally to all couples, regardless of sexual orientation. Repeals the provision in California’s Constitution that states only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local government: This measure would have an unknown fiscal effect on state and local governments. (09-0003.)

Another tactic of the same sex crowd, that and threatening proposition 8 supporters.

A poll the same sex crowd wants to bury:
A poll conducted after the MASS retaliations by the same sex crowd against supporters of proposition8. It shows the results:

Field Poll Shows Support for Gay Marriage Has Dropped

The Field Poll was released yesterday showing the state’s voters remain sharply divided over gay marriage. I asked our senior political consultant, Frank Schubert, to review the Field Poll data. Here is his report:

“I was encouraged by the Field Poll. Since May of 2008 our opponents have made no progress in the percent of people (45%) who want to give gays marriage (as compared to civil unions or no legal recognition of their relationships). This is despite the Court ruling last May, the 18,000 marriages being performed, over $40 million spent in support of gay marriage, and then weeks of protests and demonstrations in the streets afterwards. I think it totally undercuts the idea that there is a rapid movement toward approval of gay marriage. There just isn’t. If anything, the Field data suggests they have lost steam. Looking at the question as to whether people would vote for gay marriage or have marriage only between a man and a woman, the numbers have moved in OUR direction, not theirs, since May 2008. People wanting to extend marriage to gays has dropped, and the percent wanting to reserve marriage only for heterosexual couples has increased. And, recall my oft-stated view that support for traditional marriage is always under reported in these polls because it is not a PC position. My conclusion is that we are in better position now than we were during the campaign. And we won by 600,000 votes then!”

Thank you for your continued support of traditional marriage.

Sincerely,

Ron Prentice
Chairman
ProtectMarriage.com – Yes on 8

Like Dred Scott?
If they knock down DOMA and apply Federal marriage-related statutes equitably to all married couples, how is this like Dred Scott? The Feds won’t be forcing states to recognize each other’s same-sex married couples.

Why is it so important to homosexuals
that they destroy the traditional definition/meaning of marriage? Most of them have been to Sunday School. They know that all forms of sex outside the biblical/traditional context of marriage is fornication – sin. In their puny, evil minds, they think that man’s laws can change God’s definition of sin. This idea of, “If it’s legal, it isn’t wrong” is 100% wrong. God condemns homosexual behavior. It is sin.

Neither can they change God's definition of marriage. Any same sex unions will always be fornication in God's eyes - never marriage.

When God created a mate for Adam, he created a woman, not another man.

Genesis 2:24
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Ah yes, Jason
But would you want to?

An answer for Mellor
Gay activists target black homosexuals with racist taunts

Intimidating people of faith

"It is critical that people of faith recognize this reality and refuse to be cowered into either silence or inaction by such hatred. It is important that we quietly, courteously and simply affirm the truth about God's design for sexuality without either becoming angry ourselves or backing away from and compromising the truth.

People of faith must realize that, no matter how kind and civil we are, if we do nothing more than affirm the biblical truth about homosexuality we run the risk of incurring the wrath of gay activists. We will be targeted not for who we are but for what we believe, and it won't matter how compassionate we are in the process."

Yep. Exactly right.

no one Owns the Word
Who “owns” the words? Really, I do not see, even after reading my dictionary how 'Marriage' can only be owned by heterosexuals. To me 'Marriage' means – two people who love each other and commit to caring for each other. The govt' confers a bunch of rights and responsibilities to couples that enter into commitment through a contract. Churches (including those that officiate willingly over same-sex weddings) also confer r&r's to marry in front of your personal flavor of 'God'.
So, who “owns” the words? In the my dictionary there are 4 definitions listed. Only one of them states it must be a man and a woman. Regular changes are made to the dictionary. It is not a static piece of work. Really, the definition includes a term used in pinochle. Not so sacred.
Historically, the religious right has used fear and mis-truths to claim they own the words and interpretation of the bible. Historically, this use of the bible as a weapon against others has not worked well for them. My interpretation of Jesus' words leads me to believe that he would not approve. May I add again, not all churches or faiths or people of faith agree with the religious rights interpretation of the word marriage. No one “owns” the word

Marriage law
According to the Iowa Supreme Court, the purpose of Iowa’s marriage law is “to provide an institutional basis for defining the fundamental relational rights and responsibilities of persons in committed relationships. It also serves to recognize the status of the parties’ committed relationship.” No mention of gender, fertility, age, wealth, race, or other irrelevant concepts.

Listen to Meghan!
Republican resistance to gay marriage goes against conservative values—and our own self-interest. (excerpts)

By Meghan McCain

“A successful movement to overturn antidiscrimination laws in Dade County, Florida, was led by singer Anita Bryant. States like Arkansas and Oklahoma prohibited gays from teaching jobs. And a California Republican state senator suggested a proposition for voters to keep gays and lesbians from teaching in public schools. (At one point, the initiative was leading in polls with more than 60 percent of voters supporting it.)

In the end, voters rejected the proposition in November 1978, by a margin of more than a million votes. While several prominent Democrats and Republicans rallied to secure its defeat, one Republican in particular helped turn the tide—former California Governor Ronald Wilson Reagan.

Yeah, you read that right. The ultimate Republican rock star bucked the conventional wisdom of his advisers as they were planning his presidential campaign and helped fight the anti-gay proposition because he knew it was wrong.

At the most basic level, sexual orientation should not be a factor in how you are treated. If the Republican Party has any hope of gaining substantial support from a wider, younger base, we need to get past our anti-gay rhetoric.”

Marriage is bad, except for gays?!
I recall that in the 60s and 70s the "free love" crowd felt nobody should get married. Now, these same people believe that gays must be married. Make up your mind.

No Right to a State License
There's no right to a state-issued license. The people of a state CHOOSE to issue marriage licenses, and as long as the requirements do not have racial, gender or sexual orientation tests, which traditional marriage licensing DOES NOT, then it is Constitutional to have limitations.

http://walrus.blogtownhall.com/2008/07/23/neutering_marriag e_devalues_and_discourages_marriage.thtml

Where you been, Ken?
In 1967, the US Supreme Court declared marriage “fundamental right.” The state doesn’t have the choice to issue marriage licenses, it MUST issue marriage licenses.

Constitutional limitations are permissible. But not when they discriminate against a group with legal standing (like homosexual adults) without advancing a state interest. And that’s why the Iowa Supreme Court issued its unanimous ruling: there’s no good reason for the state, which issues marriage licenses, to deny those licenses based on sexual orientation.

jeffrey

you obfuscate. No where in America is sexual orientation identified as a reason to prohibit a couple from getting married.

You might have more success in persuading people if you did not state obvious falsehoods.

Eddie

And what do think the "Defense" of Marriage Act does?


Anne - Polgamy
You said:

"I assure you that my marriage of 30+ years is in no way threatened by gay marriage. What is going on in yours that makes it so vulnerable?"

The answer is that it opens the door to polygamy. Why should it be only two people that love each other, why can't it be a group? What is so magic about the number 2?

So what is the problem with polygamy, you may ask? Well, ask the 8 year old being forced to marry a 40+ male (I will NOT call them men) in Saudi Arabia.

Or Prop 8?
.

sj2

DOMA prohibits members of the same sex from being legally married. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Is that so difficult to understand?

sj2
Prop 8 says nothing about sexual orientation.

It is this imprecise use of words that makes it next to impossible to discuss the issue with supporters of same-sex marriage.

The problem with same-sex marriage

is that it demeans children.

Kimbergrl

No. The problem is underage marriage (8 year olds) and being forced into it.

This has nothing to do with polygamy--this may be the male's first wife.

But I won't argue the slippery slope with you. The issue here is same-sex marriage.


Eddie too
Maybe you should just stick to hogs and corn, ok?

From the Iowa Supreme Court opinion summary:

“The court, citing historical as well as present-day examples, concluded that gay and lesbian people as a group have long been the victim of purposeful and invidious discrimination because of their sexual orientation. There was no evidence that the characteristic that defines the members of this group—sexual orientation—bears any logical relationship to their ability to perform productively in society, either in familial relations or otherwise. Addressing the issue of immutability, the court found sexual orientation to be central to personal identity and that its alteration, if at all, could only be accomplished at the expense of significant damage to the individual’s sense of self.”

And

“Viewed in the complete context of marriage, including intimacy, civil marriage with a person of the opposite sex is as unappealing to a gay or lesbian person as civil marriage with a person of the same sex is to a heterosexual. Thus, the right of a gay or lesbian person under the marriage statute to enter into a civil marriage only with a person of the opposite sex is NO RIGHT AT ALL.” [emphasis added]”

I guess Iowa WAS discriminating based on sexual orientation.

black is white arguments
The Iowa supreme court did not say they could find no rationale for the thousands year old institution of marriage, if they did they would have struck down laws giving advantage to married couples. What they found was no rational basis for excluding a class of couples from that institution. That is pretty much the opposite of what Schafely alleges.

Similarly, she gets the Dred Scott argument precisely backwards as far as it relates to DOMA. Her complaint about Dred Scott (whose unfairness was really less a legal issue than an offshoot of the fact that the South was defending the indefensible institution of slavery)is that it forced the laws of some states on other states. But, of course, that is what DOMA does. It forces the prohibitions of some states onto citizens of states with other rules.

kimbergrl
Where does this idea come from that polygamy is some how tied into the future path of marriage? Haven't you read the bible? Polygamy is part of the earliest roots of marriage. Most of the patriarchs of the old testament were polygamists.

The existing groups that allow for polygamy, the mormon offshoots, do so on traditionalist grounds. Polygamy is a part of that thousand year old tradition of marriage that Schafely is defending.

It certainly does not follow from an attempt to end discrimination on gender grounds.

jeffrey,

I cannot believe you are using the writings of members of the bar who have become judges to support your position.

Everyone knows that you must learn to be ignorant to become a member of the bar.

The fact is that Iowa's law treated homosexuals the same as heterosexuals. Both were denied the right to enter same-sex marriages.

The denial had nothing to do with the types of sex practiced. It had only to do with protecting children.

That is the sad part of this same-sex marriage movement. It is sacrificing the welfare of children for a false good.

the institution of marriage...
has been pretty much destryoed by us heterosexuals anyway. Look around you at the number of divorces you were either in or see day to day. The numbers are staggering. First time marriages are around 50%. Second and thirds are more like 60% and 75%. Those of us in our late 40's were the last generation I believe to remember when divorce was not common. Most of us assumed our parents would grow old and die together. Of course what didn't get spoke about then was there was a lot of adultery and spouses looking the other way. Now it is just accepted that if you aren't happy...get divorced. I hate to say it out loud but marriage as we all want to see it died years ago. I am happy to say I have been married 23 years. We have only one other couple we know that can say the same thing. Everyone else has had at least one divorce. Not sure gays can kill it more than it already is.

The Iowa Supreme Court appears

Supreme only in its ignorance.

There are many societal reasons not to allow for same-sex couples to marry.

It demeans children. Same-sex couples may practice same-sex sodomy which increases the transmission of disease and death. Same-sex couples cost society millions in healthcare costs. Same-sex couples promote selfishness and disdain love.

Just because we have tied ourselves to the ignorance of lawyers does not change reality, the truth or the facts.

The same-sex sodomites are only

one ignorant decision by the USSC away from destroying America.

That is what is at stake here. If the USSC stands behind same-sex marriage, I fully expect there to be a break-up of the Union.

God's will be done!!!

The only reason I support

civil marriage, the current definition extant in the federal laws, is because it benefits children.

If you take children out of the equation, then I support eliminating civil marriage.

Still no There There
Yet another contentless article crying for heterosexual marriage to be saved from homosexual marriage without ever giving a clear description of what exactly it is about allowing homosexuals to get married that threatens, in any way, heterosexual marriages.

Sliprery slope arguments don't cut it unless you can provide evidence that one will lead to the other. For example, what evidence is there that allowing homosexual marriage will lead to allowing polygamy any more than allowing interracial marriages did?

Until you can provide such evidence, you will continue to lose ground on this issue.

Eddie Too - Your Intellectual Leader

Eddie Too said: "Everyone knows that you must learn to be ignorant to become a member of the bar."

Thanks, now you owe me a new monitor, mine's drenched with the coke I was drinking when I read that.

Needless to say, the "everyone" cited above is a pretty tiny group, and if you guys are going to make any headway, you are going to have to do much better than that.

Sometimes the jurists make it up........
"Eddie too
Maybe you should just stick to hogs and corn, ok?

From the Iowa Supreme Court opinion summary:

“The court, citing historical as well as present-day examples, concluded that gay and lesbian people as a group have long been the victim of purposeful and invidious discrimination because of their sexual orientation. There was no evidence that the characteristic that defines the members of this group—sexual orientation—bears any logical relationship to their ability to perform productively in society, either in familial relations or otherwise. Addressing the issue of immutability, the court found sexual orientation to be central to personal identity and that its alteration, if at all, could only be accomplished at the expense of significant damage to the individual’s sense of self.”

And

“Viewed in the complete context of marriage, including intimacy, civil marriage with a person of the opposite sex is as unappealing to a gay or lesbian person as civil marriage with a person of the same sex is to a heterosexual. Thus, the right of a gay or lesbian person under the marriage statute to enter into a civil marriage only with a person of the opposite sex is NO RIGHT AT ALL.” [emphasis added]”

I guess Iowa WAS discriminating based on sexual orientation>"

"The truth is the precise origin of sexual orientation is something of a mystery at present. We know that there may be some genetic factors that appear to be more common in gay men and certain lesbians than in straights but we have no reason to believe that even those factors determine one’s sexual orientation in any direct way. There is a big difference between a trait being influenced by genetics or environment and that same trait being determined by either of those factors.



Sometimes the jurists make it up........
"To be specific, Dr. Jensen told the House of Representatives that sexual orientation is a physical attribute, like height. This is easily shown to be false. In research reported in the Twin Research in 2003, researchers found very high correlations for height. In various countries, the height of identical twins demonstrated correlations of between .85 and .94.[4] A perfect relationship is 1. So for all practical purposes, if one identical twin is six feet tall, then the other would also be approximately six feet tall and so on. These correlations strongly implicate the role of genetics for this physical attribute.

However, homosexual orientation is not shared by identical twins at a rate anywhere close to the attribute of height. The most recent research by Michael Bailey and colleagues found a 20% concordance for gay males and a 24% concordance for lesbians.[5] And so in a group of 100 homosexual men who have an identical twin, 20 of those twins will have an identical twin who is also homosexual and 80 will have a twin who is heterosexual. These pairs share the same genetics but they are quite discordant on the trait of sexual orientation, thus suggesting an environmental component in the development of sexual feelings and identity. It is important to note that these identical twins were reared together."


the far right and marriage
It's puzzling to me that the far right says it's so committed to "saving" marriage yet says nothing about the high rate of divorce. That is far more a threat to marriage than gays and lesbians being allowed to marry. I am straight and married. I have yet to have a conservative make a coherent argument as to how gay marriage will affect my marriage in any way. "Tradition" was used for many years to outlaw interracial marriage. The GOP needs to wake up on this issue. Society's attitudes are changing. In 10 years, this will be a non-issue.

Sometimes the jurists make it up........
"My point in all of this is to caution the members of the legislature to examine very closely the claims of mental health organizations concerning research and homosexuality. Dr. Jensen wrote in her House testimony that sexual orientation was like height in terms of the genetic influence. Certainly she knows these statistics. I made the Ohio Psychological Association aware of them and yet they stand behind the testimony of Dr. Jensen. She also told you that there existed “substantial peer-reviewed research” concerning the biological origins of homosexuality and yet the physician body, the American Psychiatric Association said there were “no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.” Now both assertions cannot be true. I will leave to you to determine who may have a more accurate analysis of the research.

The Ohio Psychological association may tell you that there is other research that bears on the question of the biological influences on sexual orientation and they would be correct. There is interesting research being conducted concerning adult brain differences between gays and straights.[6] However, if identical twins do not share a trait then the role of genetics in the cause of any brain differences we may find must be questioned. We also know that brain differences can be caused by experience and behavior as well as influence the direction of behavior. In other words whatever biological factors exist, the environment appears to play a pretty substantial role in impacting the sexual behavior of a person. Otherwise, identical twins should have a higher rate of concordance on the trait of homosexuality than reported above."

Sexual orientation is as good a reason

a person's wealth or lack there of to discriminate against other people.

Why is sexual orientation so special that we should change the definiton of marriage?

What will we call the relationship that the word marriage defined before ignorant lawyers became involved?

Could we pass a constitutional amendment that no member of the bar may be a judge or justice in these United States?

God save us from the lawyers is a prayer to be a free person.

Sometimes the jurists make it up........
Partial excerpt:

Testimony given before the Senate Finance and Financial Institutions Committee of the Ohio Senate

January 20, 2004

Testimony of Warren Throckmorton, PhD
Director of College Counseling
Associate Professor of Psychology
Grove City College (PA)

Ok, at the risk of being banned by the..
liberal Republicans who run this site. The IA Supreme Court based their reasoning on the same fraudulent science that was codified in 1955 based on the musings of the sadomasochist, Alfred Kinsey.

"Genetic factors in cause

Concerning sexual orientation, Dr. Jensen said this: “There is substantial peer-reviewed research that sexual orientation, for most individuals, is determined at a very young age, resulting from a complex interaction of genetic, biological, and early hormonal influences. Viewed from this perspective, a person’s sexual orientation is primarily a physical attribute, very much like a person’s height. While both could be altered to some degree by environmental variables, especially in very extreme circumstances, they are primarily “’hard-wired.’”[2]

Now in fact, the nature and origin of sexual orientation may or may not be directly relevant to this legislation, however, Dr. Jensen apparently thought it was relevant enough to make that claim. As noted above, to many observers, if homosexuality is genetically determined there is a stronger case for re-defining marriage. However, whatever your position on this social and legal matter, there is no basis for distorting the research on sexual orientation to achieve that objective. Dr. Jensen did just that. Allow me to read a quote from the 2000 American Psychiatric Association Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation:

Some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime… to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified…[3]"

homosexual marriage
this is mitt rommneys fault as soon as the massachusetts supreme court put this abobination in place he shold have taken right to the united states supreme court. this flies in the face of the interstate commerce clause.when laws are passed they need to be welcomed in all states.

DHulme
What difference does it make how one becomes a heterosexual or a homosexual? What difference does it make what your reason is for wanting to marry someone of the opposite sex or the same sex? An American adult should be able to enter into a legal marriage with another consenting adult. Period. All this speculation about the “causes” of homosexuality, like it’s some kind of disease, are irrelevant. Bisexuals presumably are thrilled because they get a bigger pool to choose from LOL.

My brother married a woman, was with her for about 8 years, got tired of her, and then married a man. That relationship is going on 15 years. No big deal.

eddit too
I am going to be diplomatic

Did it ever occur to you that not everyone believes in G-d the same way as you? Some people disregard the condemnation of homosexuality in the bible as a law only applicable in biblical times... just as some people (most likely including yourself) disregard the bible's condemnation of wearing a garment made of more than one fabric. Can you just accept that some people see the world differently than you, worship differently than you and express love differently than you?... and in a plural society such as America's, everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

It's OK with Jeffrey


"Jeffreys' brother--" sold his soul, and that means to Jeffrey it's perfectly all right to sell your soul.

I see the "brother" as a Jeffrey myth. IMHO, Jeffrey is the actual homosexual, arguing his own case here at every possible opportunity. And that's OK with me. He sold his soul. He thinks there isn't any God.

Jeffrey's only one of the millions who'll finally come to their senses on the day we all face our King and Judge. Jesus will inquire, "What were you thinking when you sold your soul to the devil?"

Jeffrey will confess then, "The devil appealed to my pride, Lord. My basic sin wasn't even homosexual sex. That I might have repented of. Pride was my downfall."

And it is!



Biblical Abominations
If homosexuality is clearly an abomination -- an offensive violation of established custom, an abhorrent act, let’s look at the other Biblical abominations. We might be putting a heck of a lot of people to death!

Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." And Leviticus 20:13 adds, "they shall surely be put to death."

Adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford button-down.

Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).

What do abominators have for dinner? Rare steaks off the grill (Lev 17:10), Lobster Newburg at the Krebs and crab cakes in Baltimore (Lev 11:10), a rack of ribs at the Dinosaur Bar-B-Que (Lev 11:7).

Charging or paying interest are abominations. Bankers and anyone with a mortgage, car loan or credit card debt will be unavailable to throw the first stone, regardless of the interest rate (Psalm 15:1-5, Jeremiah 15:10). Graven images of other gods are an abomination (Deut 7:25).

So why do active abominators continue to refer to the Bible when condemning homosexuals? Are such men and women unaware of their own abominations detailed in the same scriptures?

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggghostie/abominations.html

guy calling himself jeramy

A handle like Jeramy is somewhat bisexual. The proper spelling should be Jeremy.

Jer for the male ego --Amy for the female ego or personality. Jeramy.

"I am going to be diplomatic

Did it ever occur to you that not everyone believes in G-d the same way as you? Some people disregard the condemnation of homosexuality in the bible as a law only applicable in biblical times..."

SOME PEOPLE ?????

There is only one God, jeramy. He speaks about your stupidity in the hardest terms, because you totally appall Him. He won't touch you and your partner in sin with a shove. It hardly MATTERS if you believe any other megillah.

You're just wrong, and homosexual activity is rotten.

"some people (most likely including yourself) disregard the bible's condemnation of wearing a garment made of more than one fabric."

You show your simplistic ignorance, jeramy. This was no "condemnation," but only a condition placed by
God on His people. It had to do with the COVENANT He was making with them. "I do this for you; you must then obey this." It was an act of their FAITH; just as resting on the sabbath is. God wasn't going to damn a Hebrew to hell for disobeying; but it showed lack of responsibility, or faith. (They even have their Day of Atonement.)

". . . everyone is entitled to their beliefs."

We aren't "entitled," however, to change the Word of God to the "Word of Jeramy." Your "belief" in something evil will cause you to lose your immortal soul.

Oh no!

Deadnut is back from his inquisitor training!

Never mind. He's still mad.

NANCY DIDN'T NOTE...
That her dictionary did NOT list marriage as between same sex couples, either.

Additionally, Nancy, please share with the group how offer, acceptance, and consideration enter into your purported marriage contract, marriage's are conducted by officiants, who solemnize them. Thereafter, and ONLY thereafter, will the state 'recognize' said marrige, as a way to regulate, via recordation, our laws -- It's a public policy issue!

Marrige ceremonies predate the foundng of our nation and were valid/legal without the regulation by the "state."

Hate Crime Foundation
IMHO, the only reason the homosexual lobby is attacking God's institution of marriage is they want to make it a hate crime for me to continue teaching my children, and my grandchildren that homosexuality is a sin. They want to steal my tax dollars to hijack America's public school children.

gf,

practioners of same-sex sodomy hate life.

That is why they are trying to change the definition of marriage.

Marriage, under current federal law, is a celebration of life. That is why the sodomites hate the current definition of marriage, because it celebrates what they hate.

Lucifer, the chief devil, also hates marriage and life.

It is not hard to know what side the sodomites are on in the battles between good and evil.

Jeffrey being a sophist
"Biblical Abominations
If homosexuality is clearly an abomination -- an offensive violation of established custom, an abhorrent act,"

The word is really "abomination," Jeffrey. NOT custom.

Sodom and Gomorrah were abominable to God. Why do you digress? It means you make
God hate you, that's clear. No "IF."

" . . . other Biblical abominations. We might be putting a heck of a lot of people to death!"

Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." And Leviticus 20:13 adds, "they shall surely be put to death."

God speaking through His prophet, pointing at YOU.

Adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing . . . Oxford button-down."

Reply:

No, it wouldn't "include" that. Whereas, screwing other men is an explicit abomination, Jeffrey. We're called to repentance and redemption in Jesus Christ.

". . . abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, yah dah, yah dah . . . false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16)."

The fact is; God states unequivocally, homosexual acts are mortal sins. Other things here named, by YOU-- are sins too, ordinarily. We are all called to repent.

What have you got against repentance and everlasting LIFE, as a child of God? He is trying to SAVE you, not damn you. YOU'RE the one damning yourself and every homosexual. All for a stinking and diseased existence in this life.



Science Avenger is wrong, as usual
Evidence is everywhere:

Sliprery slope arguments don't cut it unless you can provide evidence that one will lead to the other. For example, what evidence is there that allowing homosexual marriage will lead to allowing polygamy any more than allowing interracial marriages did?

An excerpt:

The difference between gay marriage and polygamy. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine
http://www.slate.com/id/2138482
"My friend Charles Krauthammer makes the argument succinctly in the Washington Post. "Traditional marriage is defined as the union of (1) two people of (2) opposite gender," he observes. "If, as advocates of gay marriage insist, the gender requirement is nothing but prejudice, exclusion and an arbitrary denial of one's autonomous choices," then "on what grounds do they insist upon the traditional, arbitrary and exclusionary number of two?"


Losing ground? Yes the same sex activists are daily

Holy Cow
Had Republicans spent less time saving marriage and more time managing the legitimate affairs of state, they may still be in power right now. This issue is a fool's game that nobody can win and it's time to move onto something a bit more substantial. One day I'd like to come back into the Republican fold, but not while issues such as this still take priority.

sophist and ignorance together

If homosexuality is clearly an abomination -- an offensive violation of established custom, an abhorrent act,"

The word is really "abomination," Jeffrey. NOT custom.

Sodom and Gomorrah were abominable to God. Why do you digress? It means you make
God hate you, that's clear. No "IF."

" . . . other Biblical abominations. We might be putting a heck of a lot of people to death!"

Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." And Leviticus 20:13 adds, "they shall surely be put to death."

God speaking through His prophet, pointing at YOU.

Adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing . . . Oxford button-down."

Reply:

No, it wouldn't "include" that. Whereas, screwing other men is an explicit abomination, Jeffrey. You can't buy a different logic; stop beating the straw dog. We don't "belong" to a chosen people. We're called to repentance and redemption in Jesus Christ.

". . . abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, yah dah, yah dah . . . false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), dishonesty. . . "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16)."

God states unequivocally, homosexual acts are mortal sins. Other things here named, by YOU-- are sins too, ordinarily. We are all called to repent.

God is trying to SAVE you, not damn you. YOU'RE the one damning yourself and every homosexual. All for a stinking and diseased existence in this life.



Saved from what?
While Schlafly repeatedly uses words like "saving","prodecting", and "defending," neither she nor ANYONE else has ever explained how heterosexual marraiges are threatened by same sex marriages.

And as for the person above who said "polygamy," that is a separate subject that requires a separate discussion.

It is like if during any discussion of hand gun regulation, anti-gun people argued "if you allow people to have hand guns, who's to say that can't have rocket-propelled gernades or chemical weapons"?

DOMA is gone by 2012
game over. Try fixing straight marriage...I mean, Mel Gibson, Mr. anti-semitic fundy Catholic nutter getting divorced...

Anderson
"My friend Charles Krauthammer makes the argument succinctly in the Washington Post. "Traditional marriage is defined as the union of (1) two people of (2) opposite gender," he observes. "If, as advocates of gay marriage insist, the gender requirement is nothing but prejudice, exclusion and an arbitrary denial of one's autonomous choices," then "on what grounds do they insist upon the traditional, arbitrary and exclusionary number of two?"

I don’t think they do insist on an “exclusionary number of two.” Who said they do? To put it another way, what group is demanding marriage of more than two people that gay people are objecting to? No one that I know of. The Christian practice of polygamy has been pretty much abandoned. And the polygamy argument against same-sex marriage is pretty worn out. No serious person thinks that same-sex marriage will lead to polygamy. And if it does, society and the law will deal with it. But it is not the burden of same-sex couples to bear that Christian heterosexual men want to have multiple wives.

“Losing ground? Yes the same sex activists are daily.”

On what planet are you living? Did you hear about Iowa? Vermont? The governor of New York is introducing legislation on same-sex marriage on Thursday I just read. Honestly, do try to pick up a newspaper every now and then. There’s more to life than Townhall.com.

The next "civil" rights movement?
People wanting to marry inanimate objects. Cars, furnature. One woman claims to have an eternal connection to the Golden Gate bridge. They claim to recieve fullfilling love from these objects and that these objects have a soul. They will make the usual claims. It's genetic and that they didnt ask to be attracted to the fire hydrant on the street corner or the balance beam in gymnastics class. Soon we will be bending over backwards to provide equal protection for people wanting to spice things with up with the treadmill at the local gym.

BTW this is not a satire or joke comment. These people exist and the trend is growing.

Heather
I think you're right about federal DOMA. It would be good for society if we could fix straight marriage but it's probably too late. How would you do it? If Christians, who are presumably prohibited from getting divorced, have higher divorce rates than non-Christians, what hope is there?

MellorSJ2 and Lon
Lon: Slavery was also allowed in the Bible, wanna bring that back too?

MellorSJ2: You are missing the point, if you allow same sex marriage you MUST allow polygamy. IT WILL HAPPEN. The logic is the same.

I ask anyone who thinks Polygamy is OK to name me one culture that allows it where women have rights. Polygamy leads to the subjugation of women by its very nature. One wife, five wives, no difference, women become chattel.

I have no issue with recognizing a relationship between 2 gays or 2 lesbians, just don't call it marriage and there is not a problem. Polygamists NEED to call it a marriage, one woman, five women same thing, women don't really count. Two gay men or two lesbians do not need their bond to be called marriage, they just need it to be acknowledged by society. Fine, just find a name I will acknowledge away.

here is total idiocy
Jeffrey:

"“Losing ground? Yes the same sex activists are daily.”

On what planet are you living? Did you hear about Iowa? Vermont? The governor of New York is introducing legislation on same-sex marriage on Thursday I just read. Honestly, do try to pick up a newspaper every now and then."

You lose ground every hour if you believe it matters one bit what happens in a few states. You lose your soul.

The truth is, America (and other western societies) have changed into godless enclaves of death and depravity. What's going to result? The end of our civilization. All of us are going into bondage as the years unfold.

The new masters won't serve homosexual agendas, they'll simply liquidate every q u e e r in the world, as they've been doing in their own Islamic states. It's not because America didn't give you freedoms.

It's because you've abused your freedom. It's all Old Hat in God's scheme of things. He has seen this before.

Sin leads to death and extinction. After we've turned all the courts over to buggery and f e l l a t i o "on demand"-- as we are forced to in abortion on demand; there will be no way back to health & sanity except suffering & death.

I'm not worried for myself; being an old man. I hurt for the children who'll inherit evils and tribulation. Theirs will be the new America. (A "cleansed" state without gays, but in profound distress such as was never known.)

Losing Ground? Not hardly
Jeffrey missed this, so I will post it again:

http://www.instantpride.com/protectmarriagecom-sends-c...

Field Poll Shows Support for Gay Marriage Has Dropped

The Field Poll was released yesterday showing the state’s voters remain sharply divided over gay marriage. I asked our senior political consultant, Frank Schubert, to review the Field Poll data. Here is his report:

“I was encouraged by the Field Poll. Since May of 2008 our opponents have made no progress in the percent of people (45%) who want to give gays marriage (as compared to civil unions or no legal recognition of their relationships). This is despite the Court ruling last May, the 18,000 marriages being performed, over $40 million spent in support of gay marriage, and then weeks of protests and demonstrations in the streets afterwards. I think it totally undercuts the idea that there is a rapid movement toward approval of gay marriage. There just isn’t. If anything, the Field data suggests they have lost steam. Looking at the question as to whether people would vote for gay marriage or have marriage only between a man and a woman, the numbers have moved in OUR direction, not theirs, since May 2008. People wanting to extend marriage to gays has dropped, and the percent wanting to reserve marriage only for heterosexual couples has increased. And, recall my oft-stated view that support for traditional marriage is always under reported in these polls because it is not a PC position. My conclusion is that we are in better position now than we were during the campaign. And we won by 600,000 votes then!”

Thank you for your continued support of traditional marriage.

Sincerely,

Ron Prentice
Chairman
ProtectMarriage.com – Yes on 8

Dreadnaught
Reread my statement about losing ground. It was not necessarily a celebratory statement; just a statement of fact. You could have made the same statement yourself.

I certainly don’t doubt your sincerity. The problem isn’t whether something is legal or not, it seems to me. That abortion is legal is irrelevant, or anything else for that matter, as far as worshipping God or living Christian lives. Why can’t Christians make a convincing argument that their faith is real, and should be followed?

Far more damaging to Christianity is the sinful lives Christians lead. This utter lack of example is far more damaging than whatever idiocy the secular authorities are up to. Anybody with a smattering of knowledge about Christianity knows Jesus all but prohibits divorce. As you know, Christians actually have a higher divorce rate than non-Christians. That’s just one example where an observer can look and see, “gee, these Christians are nutty, they don’t even follow their own faith. Why should I should them?”

American Christians are the worst ambassadors of Christianity, like, ever. The hypocrisy is so overwhelming, you want to go take a shower after talking with one. American Christianity bears little resemblance to the Bible, in my opinion.

Lead by example! Talk is cheap! When a televangelist like Ted Haggard rails against homosexuality and adultery, and then is discovered frequenting a male prostitute, it devastates Christianity. And what do his obedient followers do? They excuse his behavior, he’s made a mistake, gosh let’s be kind and patient. They should in no uncertain terms shun him, denounce him, make it well known the disappointment of his fall from grace. Otherwise, there’s no accountability; no downside to just doing whatever you want.

Jeffrey & Jeramy,
Phyllis Schlafly makes no mention of religion in her column. But since you are so obsessed with denegrating Cristianity consider this:

97% of the countries of the world legally view marriage as requiring 2 different genders.

The 3% of nations that perform the recent(and unusual) gay marriage phenomenon have populations that are over 70% Christian.
To blame Christianity for restricting the growth of the same-sex marriage practice is not only improper but is obviously (unless you're stupid)the complete opposite of reality. After all if Christianity were the impediment to anatomically similar humans getting married, it would be celebrated somewhere in the non-Christian world.

At the risk of enraging everyone, I think it's time you thank Jesus for enlightening his followers.

Left Coast
The right to do something
you can't do anyway.

Myself a pro ball player,
I should not ever say.

Can a flock be a herd?
Or a bird is a bat?

Most would agree,
Something's wrong with that.

When things are different,
we give them different words,

Not "whey and whey" Miss Muffet,
there's a reason to say curds.

And claiming to be Gay,
when in fact you are straight,

The nonsense of this,
I doubt you'll debate.

But in the land of make-believe,
California is the name,

We thought we'd pretend,
that everything's the same.

Our language was changed.
To what lengths it was carried?

Those two guys shacked up,
We no longer call married.

Even on the Left coast the homosexual community has overstepped what the public will tolerate.

Using the courts and legislatures to force the citizenry to celebrate a life style most find objectionable was the last straw.

The intolerance of Jeffrey
The laugher of all :

"Why can’t Christians make a convincing argument that their faith is real, and should be followed?"

Hoe many billions of people have lived Christian lives in the last 2000 years Jeffrey?

Look at the former USSR. No Religion for 80 years. Now Christianity is flourishing everywhere in the country. How many millions of Russians have made that commitment that were not even born Christian !

The problem is with YOU Jefrrey, and here it is summed up very neatly:

"You can lead a darwinist to intelligence, but you can't make him think"

You hate Christianity Keffrey because it says no to your homosexual activities. So you rail against it with made up nonsense.

Thank you for singlehandedly showing peopele who have not made up their minds on this issue how intolerant and bigoted toward Christianity your side is Jeffrey.





Kimbergirl:
"You are missing the point, if you allow same sex marriage you MUST allow polygamy. IT WILL HAPPEN. The logic is the same."

That's like saying "If you allow individuals to own & carry hand guns, you MUST allow them to own & carry RPGs, surface-to-air missiles and chemical weapons." The logic is the same.

Same sex marriage and polygamy are NOT the same thing, just as .22 revolver and a dirty bomb are not the same thing. There are arguments against one that don't apply to the other.




Now Polygamy is real in the Netherlands
Anything goes. Follow what happens in countries where same sex marriage is legal:

Netherlands Recognises Polygamous Marriages of Muslims
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/120808_1.html

More:

Netherlands Recognises Polygamous Marriages of Muslims
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/120808_1.htm

In Amsterdam, local government employees must inform the Public Prosecutors' Office (OM) if there is any suspicion of marriages of convenience or exploitation of women. But this has never happened, a spokeswoman revealed. In Rotterdam, too, the registration of bigamous or polygamous marriages is "practically never" refused, Verhoeven observed







Anderson
I saw that post elsewhere. It’s nice, but same-sex marriage is now more of a legal issue, not a social issue. The Iowa Supreme Court decision, in a unanimous decision made by a group composed of heterosexual, males and females, all married, and of diverse political backgrounds, in a main stream “real America” state, just made outlawing same-sex marriage very, very difficult. Ellen DeGeneris couldn’t have composed a more believable group, in a more believable state LOL.

True, each state’s constitution varies and I think it’s extremely unlikely that every state will adopt same-sex marriage anytime soon. But there is a growing body of law building and since judges rely on the principle of stare decisis in making their decisions, it’s gonna be tough for them in other states to ignore a 7-0 ruling, right or wrong. I suspect every state has some version of an Equal Protection clause in its constitution; that clause in Iowa’s constitution is what their decision was based on.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it, even when you and Dreadnaught start yelling at me LOL.

ACLU states: Legalize Polygamy
The ACLU wants to legalize polygamy:


CBN News-Polygamy: The Next "Right" to be Legalized?
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/050721a.aspx

David Frum, a scholar for the American Enterprise Institute, remarked, "Today, the people who are advocates of same-sex marriage are denying that polygamy is ever going to come up. But this is not a prediction. This is an observation. It is already coming up “

Even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has weighed in. The president of the ACLU recently said that they support "the freedom of choice for mature, consenting individuals," and that polygamy is one of the "fundamental rights" they will defend.

Next time Jeffrey and company state that the slippery slope arguement is not real remember what the ACLU says.



dreadnaught
You said about what could become the godless future of this nation, "I'm not worried for myself; being an old man. I hurt for the children who'll inherit evils and tribulation".

That's what bothers ME also about the direction this nation is heading. Although I'm not as old as you apparently are, I care less for what may happen to me than I do for the next generation. I'm sure the vast majority of the conservative posters on this site feel the same way, since some (like your fellow Californian MyOpine) are also in their golden years: there's relatively little the government can do to THEM anymore by this stage in their lives, but I'm sure they don't want to have to see their children and grandchildren be consigned to live their lives in a totalitarian hell in which they will likely not know the freedoms and opportunities for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as they did.

I figure, what's the worst the government could do to me in the future? Line me up against a wall and summarily shoot me? Well, if it does, it will only be saving me from years of hell on this earth - years that I can be spending with the Lord Jesus in heaven instead. But the thought of the children of conservatives living in a country in which they can expect to be routinely abused, like so many have been in totalitarian states, is what is hard to think about.

If there IS a full-blown armed revolution, like the Civil War, in America's near future, I won't be fighting for ME; I'll be fighting for OUR CHILDREN. I'm sure many other conservatives who post here would say "Amen!" to that.

Kevlar
I beg your pardon, but it's Dreadnaught and Anderson who persist in turning what is a legal argument into a religious one. As if their religious beliefs have to be followed by everyone. Nobody does a greater disservice to the Christian faith than "professed" Christians.

I just like to play umpire sometimes. :-)

What about lutefisk?
Lutefisk is a Scandinavian entre made from soaking codfish in lye. Most Americans find it objectionable.

Would that justify passing a "Defense of Food Act" (FODA) to make lutefisk illegal?

If a court overturns FODA, can we scream that the courts are tying to force lutefisk on everyone?

Dan
"If a court overturns FODA, can we scream that the courts are tying to force lutefisk on everyone?"

My Grandparents used to force lutefisk on me. Do you think I have a case? HAHA

Jeffrey, really?
David S from NY posted this to you on another thread. You never answere it, I can see why, so I will repost it:

Upon which I STAND and by which I ARGUE. I already know that it's not yours.

I keep asking you to supply us with YOURS -- simply declare to us YOUR OWN, so that I will know by what standard that you hold as true you are making these claims that you insist the rest of us must honor.

And YES YOU ARE obligated to defend your position, given that you advocate change from the traditional structures I hold to and which are the foundations of the systems under which we have all been living. These are the very systems you defy.

I am perfectly satisfied with the ways in which societies that honor BIBLICAL values -- however imperfectly -- have historically established and maintained our sociopolitical and cultural institutions, including those concerned with sexuality and with marriage and other family matters.

YOU are dissatisfied, YOU advocate change -- of a radical kind -- and it is incumbent upon YOU to identify for US the authoritative documents, structures and institutions upon which YOU base your advocacy and demand change.

WHY do we NEED what you push: "tolerance"/sanction of sodomy; legalized sodomitical unions to be recognized by church and state, etc.? WHO SAYS SO, and BY WHAT AUTHORITY do you push that radical change?

I advocate the will of Almighty God. Whose will do you advocate?

I believe the word of Almighty God. What do you believe, and why do you believe it? Why are YOU right, and the word of God wrong?




Polygamy/Polyamory a different issue
"Next time Jeffrey and company state that the slippery slope arguement is not real remember what the ACLU says."

The problem with polygamy/polyandry marriage is that existing marriage/family law is based on the supposition of two people.

Yes, the two people are assumed to be a man and a women, but when you consider situations like spousal benefits, inheritance, rights of a spouse one one is hospitalized, and how the property is divided in a divorce, the law works equally well for same sex couples as well. In fact, this is the very reason why many same sex couples WANT marriage rights.

But when you consider how marriage/divorce law might apply in multiple partner marriages, one can think of many situations that are not addressed. Anyone making a serious proposition to legalize polygamy or polyomorous marriages must also propose a whole set of new laws to address rights & responsibilities, division of propterty, child custody, and other issues among the multiple parties.

So you see, polygamy is a completely separate discussion.

Dan, Incorrect.
Dan writes in part:

"So you see, polygamy is a completely separate discussion. "

No, it is not when it concerns marriage. That is a fallacious statement. The issue is marriage Dan, of whatever type. No matter what type of marriage, laws will have to be changed. Irrelevant arguement.

Same sex marriage will reauire changing of laws. Why is it fine to change laws for same sex but not polygamy?.

And polygamy is only ONE of the changes to marriage. Incest will also be a recognized marriage, among others. Muslims already marry girla starting around 12. Are you going to discriminate against them because of their culture?

Changes to laws do not disconnect the issues. Sorry Dan.

Anderson
You have to stop claiming Bible stuff. Here’s why:

1. A bunch of us are not Christians. I certainly leave the door open a crack for me personally, but at this stage of the game, not likely. When something is made a law, we all have to obey, Christian or not. In California, a bunch of Atheists lost the right to marry, and some are in danger of having their marriages dissolved, because their fellow Christians don’t approve of same-sex marriage. That’s un-American. Our national and social DNA is far more closely and reliably connected to religious tolerance than to Christianity. Even most Christians, to the detriment of their own faith, admit and support this.

2. It is simply NOT CREDIBLE to claim that what the Bible says must be enshrined in law. If you believed in Biblical prohibitions made illegal, divorce would be all but illegal, as would adultery and 18 million other prohibitions from the Bible. Why is same-sex marriage bad, while divorce, which actually does devastate marriage, home life, child security and social continuity, is perfectly legal and perfectly palatable to Christians? Why???

3. Most American Christians don’t even know enough about, or understand, their Christian faith, to warrant using its tenets as a weapon against fellow citizens. A recent poll revealed that 65% of American Christians think that it is possible to get into Heaven without the help of Christ. Um, well, don’t tell Christ that, because He sees things very differently.

4. Our American system presumes you have the right to do whatever you want to do unless there’s a law or statute prohibiting it. When the government does limit a right, it has to have a good reason to do so. And when it offers a right, but excludes a defined, identifiable group from from exercising that right, it has to have a really, really good reason to do so. A bunch of us don’t think the government has that really, really good reason to prohibit same-sex marriage.

Marriage existed before the government
Marriage is a cultural institution that supports a healthy society. Its in a government's best interest to protect it.

Gay marriage can not exist without the government's intervention, that should tell you something. Gay marriage advocates are using the government to force a cultural change. Should government be involved in forcing culture change? Government should protect our rights and freedoms and leave the culture changes to the culture.

In order for something to be naturally valid it needs to validated naturally. Marriage between a woman and a man is validated naturally through procreation. Not all marriage require children to be valid, but the union is naturally valid. Gay marriage has to be validated by the government, it can not validate itself.

Gay marriage is about equality and that equality can not be achieved unless every right guaranteed to a married couple is granted to the gay married couple. This means adoption must be open to gay married couples, or the fight for equality isn't over.

All things being equal the best environment for a child is in a strong healthy marriage where they have a good father figure and a good mother figure. Gay marriage while it tries to be equal can not provide that. The fight for equality is a facade.

dreadnaught
I am not bisexual nor am I gay, nor do I know anyone who is gay who wishes to marry. I am only arguing this point because I want to prevent people like you from turning MY country into Iran. Frankly, your religious views are IRRELEVANT. They are between you and the myopic, ignorant, impotent G-d that you worship. Anyone who believes that G-d wants them to force his will on society is either Schizophrenic or a member of al qeada.

Here in America, we do not craft our public policy based on the irrelevant religious views of people in the KKK. That is why people like you only have a voice on sites like this. That is why people like me have the luxury of pointing at people like you and laughing. You are a cartoon character, a cautionary tale of what can happen when someone supplants a basic education with bible study from a toothless, inbred pastor.

Anderson:
Laws are changed all the time. That's what politicians do. Even marriage laws. Each state's marriage and divorce laws are slightly different.

It is fallacious to say "You can't make change A to the law because then you'd have to make change B." If change A serves the interests of the people of the state, make the change. If change B creates more problems than it solves, then reject it. One does not require the other.

As for polygamy, while you can find someone out there who will call for almost anything, there is no organized effort that I am aware of to legalize polygamy. The Morman splinter groups are happy to do what they do without legal recognician or protection. They are not asking for polygamy to be legal. In fact, they prefer the status quo so that courts will not inteterfere with they ways they handle dissolution/division of property, etc.

So the whole polygamy argument against same sex marriage is completely fallacious.

Pancho
"Marriage existed before the government" So did slavery. Just because a practice is old, it does not necessarily mean that we shouldn't change it.

No strong arguments for gay marriage
There is no valid argument for gay marriage. The one I keep hearing is, 'how does it affect your marriage?' That is not an argument for anything. Its nothing more than a ploy to stop the discussion and intimidate. How would polygamy affect my marriage? It doesn't. How does the divorce rate affect my marriage? It doesn't. How do the Samali pirates affect my marriage? They don't. It's a non-argument.

Gay marriage puts the government in a dilema of which is more important; recognizing gay marriage as equal or what is in the best interest of the children. Gay marriage can not provide the same environment for children that a normal marriage can. If the gay marriage advocates are satified with gay marriage being recognized with the same rights as normal marriage except for adoption, I would not object. Then they would have to settle for a lesser than equal, which still isn't equal.

I can see the benefit to society by having people committed to each other and being able to have some rights that married couples have. I have to draw the line at children. I'm fine to live an let live, but we should not willfully put an innocent child in an environment that is not the best for them.

There are better arguments for polygamy than gay marriage. In polygamy, with multiple wifes there are several mother figures and one father figure. If one wife divorces, the child still has a father figure and at least one mother figure. I'm not advocating for polygamy, I'm just saying it has a better case than gay marriage. Especially when advocates say, 'it's about letting love win.' Well polygamy is more people = more love. Don't think polygamy is next up to bat for marriage rights, check out Canada.

RIGHT ON PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY
TO JEFFRY IN MI,DUDE WE ANT BUYING INTO YOUR WIERD NONSENSE,MARRIAGE =ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN!.ANYTHING ELSE IS A OBAMANATION.

indefatigable homosexual apologist
Jeffrey wasting bandwidth again, touting gay "rights."

"When the government does limit a right, it has to have a good reason to do so. And when it offers a right, but excludes a defined, identifiable group from exercising that right, it has to have a really good reason to do so."

. . . You and other homosexuals are entitled to the same rights everybody else has. You have a right to marry a person of your choice of the opposite sex. Exactly as I have the right.

A person with a vagina, Jeffrey --for people like you. (Assuming there isn't any impediment.) Ask any lawyer, Jeffrey.

Pancho
"There are no strong arguments for gay marriage" In a free society, you don't need a good reason to recognize a civil liberty... you need a good reason not to. There is good argument NOT to recognize gay marriage. There are only religious arguments and, since we don't all follow the same religion and we have a secular government, religion should play no part in public policy. Marriage is not a societal institution, it is a personal relationship between two people. Marriage exists independently of religion as two people can get married without a church, temple or mosque. There is no logical reason to subject marriages to the religious views of some.

Pancho:
If we only want to allow marriages that are best for children, then we should prevent anyone from marrying even the opposite sex who..

Has a criminal record
Is chronically unemployed
Abuses drugs or alcholol
Has been already been married and divorced
Has anger-management issues
Is a workoholic
Is in the military
Has any other career which takes him/her out of the home for extended periods, or carries a high risk of death.

reply to jeramy
To Jerry-Amy, as the case may be:

You're full of it.

Precisely because, this is NOT YOUR country. You have only ONE VOTE. As for your other claptrap,

"I am not bisexual nor am I gay, nor do I know anyone who is gay who wishes to marry."

Yeah? You're lying. You are a homosexual; every word you post tells us that. Only, you're a cowardly homosexual, who won't tell the truth in public.

"I am only arguing this point because I want to prevent people like you from turning MY country into Iran."

I want to prevent gays like you from turning us into a Sodom and/or Gomorrah, Amy Boy. I have no ties either to Iran or al Qaeda. I tied the knot with a perfectly wonderful WOMAN; and we are truly MARRIED; not just acting a part on the stage.

"Frankly, your religious views are IRRELEVANT. They are between you and the myopic, ignorant, impotent G-d that you worship."

Thank you for exposing yourself as a corrupt, effeminate and bigoted homosexual troll; not relevant even twice every day like the proverbial busted clock, which is OK at a certain hour.

Deadnut
"You and other homosexuals are entitled to the same rights everybody else has. You have a right to marry a person of your choice of the opposite sex. Exactly as I have the right."

Well in four states Gay marriage is allowed, and another two states recognize gay marriages performed in other states. It seems like slowly, yet surely, the definition of marriage in America is changing. And I get a chuckle every time I think about how mad this must make people like you. I am sure your toothless head is about to explode... If you don't like it, get out of my country.

Deadnut
Did you ever check out your wife's package?... ever wonder why her voice is so deep?... ever wonder why she looks like a man?

You are your own worst enemy.

Bravo, Dan in WA
Say that slowly,--

we only want to allow marriages that are best for children, then we should prevent anyone from marrying even the opposite sex who..

Has a criminal record
Is chronically unemployed
Abuses drugs or alcholol
Has been already been married and divorced
Has anger-management issues
Is a workoholic
Is in the military
Has any other career which takes him/her out of the home for extended periods, or carries a high risk of death."

But most of all, a pair of vaginaphobes posing as married people. (That has to top your list.)

Dreadful
I have been hammering pretty hard on this issue. Not sure why. I like to argue legal stuff I guess.

Anyhow,

The Iowa Supreme disagrees with you.

“Viewed in the complete context of marriage, including intimacy, civil marriage with a person of the opposite sex is as unappealing to a gay or lesbian person as civil marriage with a person of the same sex is to a heterosexual. Thus, the right of a gay or lesbian person under the marriage statute to enter into a civil marriage only with a person of the opposite sex is NO RIGHT AT ALL.” [emphasis added]

So as long as you wouldn’t want to marry another man, Dredgenut, you can understand that a gay man or woman has no impulse or longing for someone of the opposite sex. But you know this; you just feel it’s your responsibility to keep repeating talking points.

get out yourself, troll-gay

There is just one country you can call your own, Bugger-Bait;

Vaginaphobia. A place where the couples are same-sex citizens. I never go there, since vaginas are perfectly charming to moi. The same went for your Daddy, who married one (we assume for your sake.)

Poor Dan
Pancho spells out a clear argument and your response is:

"...we should prevent anyone from marrying even the opposite sex who... is in the military"

It is getting real hard, I mean really, really hard to take you even slightly seriously.

Incomprehensible Arrogance


Ahh the arrogance.

The arrogance one must possess to sincerely believe that our enlightened positions on same-sex marriage are morally and intellectually superior to that of our great grandparents, and their great grandparents, and their great grandparents.

We are so hyper-smart in fact that our intellect and moral compass exceeds that of every generation from every civilization in recorded history. Never before, in any language has man-kind contemplated calling two homosexuals married.

quick reply to Jeffrey:
". . . the right of a gay or lesbian person under the marriage statute to enter into a civil marriage only with a person of the opposite sex is NO RIGHT AT ALL." [emphasis added]

The world is thereby turned upside-down, Swell! But you turn down women. You won't turn down AIDS or HIV or any number of plagues. OK; go over to Iowa and contract them all.

You never answered me in the Jackson thread. You have no objections to those disgusting diseases resulting from banging a sphincter? What did Iowa have to say about your right to self-destruct? You approve of dying by self-immolation on the altar of sodomy?

Hey Kev
I think I've seen you post this concept before:

"The arrogance one must possess to sincerely believe that our enlightened positions on same-sex marriage are morally and intellectually superior to that of our great grandparents, and their great grandparents, and their great grandparents."

And yet, were our great great grandparents so enlightened about race, class and sex? No, they were dumb as rocks. It took some hard logic and the force of law to make them come around.

Now it's gender's turn, plain and simple.

I find it interesting that in this article, on a conservative website, we find the argument that a federal mandate ought to overpower the right of the states. Isn't there a bit about that in the constitution?

Adios jeramy
Pitiful jeremy scribbles:

"Well in four states Gay marriage is allowed, and another two states recognize gay marriages performed in other states."

Comment: And gee in 30 or more states it is prohibited. And no state has ever had a popluar vote on the issue as provided for in the constitution under the 10th amendment. Bzzzzt so far on jeramy.

"It seems like slowly, yet surely, the definition of marriage in America is changing."

Comment: Not so. The results of proposition 8 speak for themselves.

"And I get a chuckle every time I think about how mad this must make people like you. I am sure your toothless head is about to explode... If you don't like it, get out of my country. "

Comment: jermay if you feel the need, by all means leave. Find a good dentist in say, Cuba.

Adios jeramy.

Dreadnaught, Kevlar:
You don't dispute do you, that children do best when raised by a man and a woman in a low-conflict stable marraige.

While I respect those who volunteer to serve in the military, I've seen many news stories about the stress long overseas deplayments causes to military families and children.

Therefore, if marraige should be limited to opposite-sex couples who have the greatest likelyhood of a low-conflict emotionally stable marriage that is ideal for raising happy, well-adjusted children, you'd have to excluded current members of the military.

dednut
I hate to interrupt your religion induce diatribe but you can get AIDS and HIV from heterosexual sex as well... just look at Africa.

paranoidal sophist









no, mysticparanoid, Our grandparents, I can assure you, were NOT dumb. They were very intelligent.

For instance, our grandparents put abortionists behind bars. They slept with their own wives, by & largely. They invented all the great things you benefit from, such as electricity, air conditioning, trains and planes, the GI Bill, TV. The list of their accomplishments goes on. YOUR guys invented nothing.

They did NOT tolerate depraved behavior or insolence from f a g s. They were vastly more intelligent than this ME generation. You have no way of denying it.

Jeramy
Don't pay too much mind to Dreadful, it's just the box of wine talkin'.

lame stuff from gay troll
The Gay Troll says:

"I hate to interrupt your religion induce diatribe but you can get AIDS and HIV from heterosexual sex as well... just look at Africa."

The sickness is a gay epedemic, here and in Europe.
Africans are used to buggering al;l the time; and even believe that to "cure" a case of AIDS, they must rape a virgin girl. You and they are equally ignorant about the plague attacking p e r v e r t s. They're savages, with ignorance for their excuse. You have no excuse.

Tell you what else, Pipsqueak:

I glory in my religion. I love God. Why should a nobody like you feel superior to people of faith? You're a waste of air, not even a man.

Hi Dread,
First, you probably chill on the hate speech. Not for my benefit, but your own :)

Second, did there or did there not used to be institutional racism, sexism and classism?

Yes, indeed there was. It had to be overcome by people of goodwill. Now it's gender's turn.

Are you not aware of human history? Did you not know that race, class, and sex used to be the means of determining a person's worth? Did you not know that overturning such prejudice in private and public life took legislation and judicial rulings?

The real truth jeramy
jeramy
Location: NY
Reply # 2
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 7:26 PM EST dednut
I hate to interrupt your religion induce diatribe but you can get AIDS and HIV from heterosexual sex as well... just look at Africa.

African HIV causes form a professional:

HIV - AIDS: THE FACTS NOT HYSTERIA WHY NOT A MAJOR ISSUE IN RESPONSIBLE-NONMONOGAMY
http://www.libchrist.com

"The African heterosexual spread also has more to do with STDs, bad hygiene, open sores from diseases of malnutrition and inadequate protein synthesis, and the popularity of anal sex as a method of birth control."

jeramy whiffs again, the Huffpo and Daily Kos just suck at real facts donr they jeramy? Or jeramy who claims to have a medical degree. (Yeah right)


Dan, bzzzt. Again.
The post of irrelevance by Dan:

Dreadnaught, Kevlar:
You don't dispute do you, that children do best when raised by a man and a woman in a low-conflict stable marraige.

Comment: Yes.

While I respect those who volunteer to serve in the military, I've seen many news stories about the stress long overseas deplayments causes to military families and children.

Comment: Yes it does. So does going to school, vacations, and many other events. The raising part is long term, not identified by breaks. Sorry Dan, another total logic failure on your part.

Therefore, if marraige should be limited to opposite-sex couples who have the greatest likelyhood of a low-conflict emotionally stable marriage that is ideal for raising happy, well-adjusted children, you'd have to excluded current members of the military.

Comment: Start with a failed premise as Dan did, and you end up with a failed irrelevant answer.

Homo and other wipeouts
The title of you article was yes we can. I do not understand how we can stop them. Your article give some good information on the how but nothing we the people can do. I think we should go to DC on one of the few days they are there and physically go in pick them up and put them on the curb. We know they are walking on us. What to do? Beat them up? Shoot them? They are classest, racest and wromg but what can we do to stop them. I think the how is important to the few who have power but what can we do? If they change the USA just so they can degrade their girl-boyfriends what else will they do?

AIDS in Africa
I know many people who are or were medical or educational missionaries in Africa. AIDS is widespread, but there is a lot of false diagnosis. A variety of diseases, including tuberculosis, are often listed as AIDS. Furthermore, anal intercourse is common as a means of birth control, which is a dangerous practice with a high risk of AIDS whether heterosexual or homosexual.

Cat fight
After reading a few comments, it looks like some bloggers are in a cat fight. Like two angry women, they each want to claw the eyes out of each other in order to win over the same man.

It's true GayCon
I'm afraid our two resident Victorian ladies may have the vapors. They'll need to recline soon. The world all around them is a-changin' and it's a mighty fearful thing!

Anderson Doesn't Know What Evidence Is
Anderson said: Evidence is everywhere:
...
'My friend Charles Krauthammer makes the argument...'"

Once again Anderson you reveal you don't understand what evidence is. An argument is not evidence. Assertions are not evidence. That's just hot air, and it's obvious the anti-gay-marriage crowd has plenty of that. What I'm asking for is actual data that what you argue/assert is true. For example, have demands for, or actual exercises of, polygamy increased in countries or states that allowed gay marriage? If you can't cite any, then your argument is once again exposed as being just a bunch of made up sh*t.

So let's have it. Where's the evidence. Not some Gomer exrpessing his biases aloud. Evidence.

All About the Children
Statistically speaking, children raised by a same-sex couple are almost 5 times more likely to become homosexual. This is a behavior that should be discouraged.

Besides, most people believe that girls having a Mothers influence and boys having a Fathers influence is very beneficial towards emotional maturity.

Women are emotionally much more predisposed to the empathetic nurturing that very small children require.

Men are a heck of a lot better at scaring away creeps that want to date their daughters and at controlling anti-social teen males.

90% of male inmates in our overcrowded prison system came from households headed by one gender.

Another Reason for Social Conservatives
to join the tea parties!

http://www.parcbench.com/article_details.php?RId=127&topic= front

Our tax dollars are funding every thing from Planned Parenthood, to ACORN, to other radical, pro-gay, anti-traditional family groups.


Fun with Science Avenger (not)
Evidence is everywhere except for the ignorant who refuse it:

Science Avenger (not) states:

Science Avenger
Location: TX
Reply # 2
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 8:06 PM EST Anderson Doesn't Know What Evidence Is
Anderson said: Evidence is everywhere:
...
'My friend Charles Krauthammer makes the argument...

Here is just one book containing probably a hunfred or more evidentiary examples and a small excerpt:

Same sex Marriage: Putting Every Household At Risk
http://www.amazon.com/Same-sex-Marriage-Putting-Househ...

"The problem with endorsing gay marriage is not that it would allow a handful of people to choose alternative family norms, but
that it would require society at large to gut marriage of its central presumptions about family in order to accomodate a few adults' desires."

Typical post by science Avenger. Claims a knowledge of science but knows nothing of it or the meaning of evidence, and acts ignorant to evidence he does not accept for ideological reasons.

One example of many if anyone cares to look






the pattern in all of jeffrey's BS
Jeffrey wishes he could just kill the messenger. He could, if he were on the side of morality and justice.

Otherwise, he has to block out the truth by insulting the only real moralists on this thread. We're "Victorian," and so on. Ho--hum! Is there a moral bone in Jeffrey's whole body?

NO; he's the "Boneless Wonder" of Toon Hall. What's the last post in which this Boneless Jeffrey wasn't blowing smoke? Name one argument he won by telling us the truth --? I challenge the q u e e r camp to boost or support this tumor of hypocrisy called Jeffrey. He favors HIV/AIDS but won't admit it!

Aren't you proud, Phyllis?
Read the comments.

Those who agree with you are the rude, the hateful, the threatening, the bigoted, the intolerant, the arbitrary, the ignorant and barely literate.

Nice company you keep.

Kevlar's fallacies
Kevlar said: "Statistically speaking, children raised by a same-sex couple are almost 5 times more likely to become homosexual. This is a behavior that should be discouraged."

Ah, the old circular "we should discourage homosexuality because it leads to more homosexuality" argument.

Kevlar said: "Besides, most people believe that girls having a Mothers influence and boys having a Fathers influence is very beneficial towards emotional maturity."

Majority belief <> reality. Where's the evidence?

Kevlar said: "90% of male inmates in our overcrowded prison system came from households headed by one gender."

Yeah, one overworked mother primarily. How dishonest a stat can you get?

You guys are making the wrong comparison. The choice is not between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual one. The choice is between a single parent or two parents of the same gender. We all know the data on the influence of children being raised by one parent, you guys use that fact all the time when arguing against more sexual restraint. Yet now you are trying to argue that a child is better off with one parent than with two? It's just another case of special pleading.

Jeffrey, yes it is.
Jeffrey scribbles:

"It's true GayCon
I'm afraid our two resident Victorian ladies may have the vapors. They'll need to recline soon. The world all around them is a-changin' and it's a mighty fearful thing! "

Yep. Thirty states now protect marriage and after Iowas more will. And now my state Arizona is one.

Yep. It changed in 2008 . Arizona made sure marriage was only between one man and one woman.

Once Again, No Evidence Offerred

Oh yeah it was a typical post by me alright, asking for evidence and once again, all I get from Anderson is rhetoric. I might as well ask for a color from a blind man.

Evolutionarily Incomprehensible
Darwin would be the first to explain that any spieces with a prepondurance for same sex attraction will eventually become extinct.

Yes, in the absence of the opposite sex many dogs will try to get-off in a variety of ways.
So do prisoners.

But a dog doesn't want to marry your leg.

Copying anomolies in the animal kingdom will not get you invited to parties. After all, I've seen my dog eat poop.

Allen is correct
Allen is correct, he writes:

Aren't you proud, Phyllis?
Read the comments.

Those who agree with you are the rude, the hateful, the threatening, the bigoted, the intolerant, the arbitrary, the ignorant and barely literate.

Nice company you keep.

Boy are you correct Allen. Not a single poster here has posted that they AGRREE with SCHLAFLY.They do however comment on her column.

Have you ever seen such anti Christian bigoted hatred expressed by the likes of Jeffrey, Science avenger, etc.? It is terrible to demean people of faith to pursue an ideological means, dont you agree?

And the intolerance expressed by the same sex crowd is so repugnant as to be stomach churning.

For once we agree Allen.

Science Avenger
You stated:
"Yet now you are trying to argue that a child is better off with one parent than with two."

Wrong, no such argument has been made.

But, children that are raised by a man and a woman exceed (in every category one would want to exceed in) the children raised in any other environment period.

You cannot find any statistic, anywhere that will say otherwise.

Glad to keep company with Phylis


The article is good and it's topical. Schlafly is reputed to be the mother of a homosexual, yet speaks for Christian morals and does it with grace. We few in the TH who are supposedly "the rude, the hateful, the threatening, the bigoted, the intolerant, the arbitrary, the ignorant and barely literate,"

MOI?

--Are merely telling it all as it is. Homosexuals are pushing an immoral, vicious and destructive agenda. They feel invincible because now a few judges bollixed up the meaning of Constitutional justice. That's the reason we have an gay troll infestation here; in an overtly conservative site. They're all foot-soldiers from the vaginaphobic community. Their assignment is to stifle dissent from decent people who object to the offensive agenda.

Science Avenger
Evidence of what do you seek Science Avenger?

Th Science Avenger idiocy
This child is beyond help. Some more evidence, that is if Science Avenger can read AND comprehend at the same time:

Gender Identity Disorder
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html

"From the result of my research studies, it now appears that a preventive treatment for transvestism, transsexualism, and some forms of homosexuality may have been isolated in these techniques of early identification and early intervention in the childhood years (Rekers, 1978, 1980, 1981b, 1983, 1987)."




When I was ten I was a Gynophobe
. . . I was afraid of girls. They had cooties and were disgusting. I got over it the next year, and then some. I'm sorry for you homosexuals who didn't.

Same sex arguement shredded
This is the Doctor who lobbied for the removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973. Here is what he thinks of it now, commenting on a book that determines, scientifically, that homosexuality CAN BE CHANGED:

Amazon.com: Ex-gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation:
http://www.amazon.com/Ex-gays-Longitudinal-

"Research in the controversial area of homosexuality is fraught with ideology and plagued by a dearth of science. This study has broken new ground in its adherence to objectivity and a scientific precision that can be replicated and expanded, and it opens new horizons for investigation. It is the kind of scientific research I had in mind when in the mid-1970s I introduced my successful resolution in the APA Council of Representatives that homosexuality is not a disease, but a complex constellation of factors that requires scientific investigation to further our understanding of its etiology, its many parameters and its subjectivity to change. I have waited over thirty years for this refreshing, penetrating study of an imperative, though controversial, human condition. This book is must-reading for psychotherapists and counselors, as well as academic psychologists studying human behavior and sexuality." -- Nicholas A. Cummings, Ph.D., SC.D., Former President, American Psychological Association; Distinguished Professor, University of Nevada, Reno; President, Cummings Foundation for Behavioral Health

Are we really going to redefine marriage for a BEHAVIOR?


Science Avenger
Evidence that children raised by homosexuals are 5 to 7 times more likely to become homosexual.

Baumrind, D. (1995). Commentary on sexual orientation: Research and social policy implications. Developmental Psychology, Belcastro, P.A., Gramlich, T., Nocholson, T., Price, J., & Wilson, R. (1993). A review of the data based studies addressing the effects of homosexual parenting on children's sexual and social functioning. Journal of Divorce and Remarriage, Bronski, M. (2001).

Science Avenger
"Qu**r as your Folks: A New Study says Gay Parents Create Gay Kids. How Will This Research be Used by Conservatives and Liberals?" The Boston Phoenix, August 21, 2001.Butler, A. C. (2005). Gender differences in same-sex sexual partnering, 1988-2002. Social Forces,Clarke, V. (2002). Sameness and difference in research on lesbian parenting. Journal of Community & Applied Social Psychology, Lauman E.O., Gagnon, J.H., Michael, R.T., & Michaels, S. (1994).

Science Avenger
The social organization of sexuality: Sexual practices in the United States. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.Lerner, R. & Nagai, A. (2001). No Basis: What the studies don't tell you about same-sex parenting. Washington, DC: Marriage Law Project.Patterson, C.J. (1992). Children of lesbian and gay parents. Child Development, Stacey, J. & Biblarz, T.J. (2001). (How) does the sexual orientation of parents matter? American Sociological Review, Throckmorton, W. (2004). "Do Parents Influence the Sexual Preference of Children?" Available on the web at http://www.drthrockmorton.com.Williams, R.N. (2000). A Critique of the Research on Same-Sex Parenting. In D.C. Dollahite (Ed.), Strengthening our families Salt Lake City: Center for Studies of the Family, Brigham Young University.Bailey, J.M., Dunne, M.P., & Martin, N.G. (2000).

And one more evidentiary example
Homosexuality and Psychotherapy: An Interview with Nicholas Cummings - Blogger News Network
http://www.bloggernews.net/15451

Therapists at Kaiser developed means to help clients pursue their values and desires in an informed manner. “Over time, we were able to identify within 4 or 5 sessions which clients were likely to pursue change and which ones were not.” Cummings learned that clients most likely to change attractions either had a strong, internalized value system which contradicted homosexual behavior or they had come to a homosexual adaptation through a childhood of abusive life experiences. Those with no prior heterosexual inclination and those with a longer history of same-sex attraction were not as likely to develop heterosexual functioning. "

Science Avenger
Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Bailey is a well-known pro-genetic-basis-for-homosexuality researcher, but as a result of this study Bailey and colleagues wrote, "ours did not provide statistically significant support for the importance of genetic factors for [sexual orientation]."Bearman, P.S., & Bruckner, H. (2002). Opposite-sex twins and adolescent same-sex attraction. American Journal of Sociology,Council for Responsible Genetics (2006). "Brief on Sexual Orientation and Genetic Determinism." Available on the web at http://www.gene-watch.org. Mustanski, B.S., Dupree, M.G., Nievergelt, C.M., Bocklandt, S., Schork, N.J., & Hamer, D.H. (2005). A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation. Human Genetics, Mustanski and colleagues, including Dean Hamer (another well-known pro-genetic-basis-for-homosexuality researcher), Whitehead, N.E. & Whitehead, B. (originally published in 1999). "My Genes Made Me Do It! - A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation." Constantly updated and available on the web at http://www.mygenes.co.nz.

Happy.

Science Avenger?

Evidence of what Now do you seek Science Avenger?

When they ask for it
Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexuality-Politics-Truth-

This book is excellent on many different levels. Yes, it debunks a lot of purposeful misinformation on the subject of homosexuality. But, better yet, it is a tour-de-force at exposing how propaganda and politics warp our minds. Fact: no breakthrough medical or psychiatric discoveries have been made on this subject ever since h/s was correctly understood as neurotic. What has changed are the politics with which the subject is treated. Fact: the h/s gene is a myth, a media and activist fabrication. "I've just been born this way" just doesn't cut it! Fact: looking open-mindedly at the factual basis of this controversial subject does not make a person a "hater" or "homophobe" (whatever that even means). Remember, only the dead fish swim with the stream!

anderson659
Fun over. No lib responses for an hour now. We've caused the exit of our pro same-sex marriage friends. They've taken their ball and bat and gone....I guess to HufPo. Always a societal mistake (I think)to use logic with the logically challenged. Good Night.

Certain subjects
If you want all out war on TH.com, have a column about abortion or homosexuality or about Biblical passages. Whew! I'd rather discuss Obama's high taxes, socialistic takeover of companies, and his inate ability to denigrate America overseas.

I will give the President credit on doing the right thing in Somalia with the pirates.

Whew!
You shills for the so-called "family" groups sure did earn your 30 pieces of silver tonight! Wow! The retirement homes must have canceled bingo for you guys to burn up the Internet pasting your usual garbage.

Well I hope that the choir sings your praises tomorrow and that you your checks don't bounce! Night!

Homosexuality
is both a biological and evolutionary dead end. An aberation to God and nature.

You are by definition "LOSERS"

U.S. GOV'MNT WILL DEFEND NOTHING BUT
thier own perverted view of reality.

That is: You who strive for the American Dream and fail shall have all manner of our support.

You who strive for the Americna Dream and Succeed, shall be punished and forced to pay for all those who fail.

IT IS REALLY VERY SIMPLE.

I BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE.

WELCOME TO THE IDIOCRACY.

ROWDY BOOTS

kimbergrl
I didn't say polygamy was a good thing, I said it was a traditional thing. Sometimes traditional things are good things, sometimes they are not. There is a reason to respect tradition, but it is important to also recognize when tradition is being used to maintain bad, or even reprehensible, things.

Thank You, Ms Schlafly
Ms Schlafly, I can't thank you enough for pointing out that my marriage is in danger. In my apartment building there are several gay couples who have been together for decades and I imagine if they could legally marry, they would. One of them, quite elderly, isn't really in a relationship any more since his partner of about fifty years died recently, after being lovingly cared for in his last illness by the lover who survives him. Now, after reading your article, I realize what a threat these men pose to me in my traditional marriage of 57 years---they could utterly destroy it. Why, we could wake up some morning and, POOF, no more marriage. (Do they do this by magic, or what?) Must go now and warn husband. Whew. Saved by the bell. Thanks again.

Bless you, Lily
You're a treat! Here's hoping for another 57 years for you and your husband!

Thank you, Ms. Schlafly.
Thank you for standing true, in defense of the sacred vow of marriage. It is the truth that guide many of our young men and women today, and reaffirms the bond between a man and a woman.

God bless your writing, and teaching.

Homosexuals Demand Legitimacy 2

Where homosexuals have succeeded in redefining marriage, in their foolish, darkened hearts they think they have trumped God. They are fond of saying that God’s laws do not apply to them because they either do not believe He exists or they have decided his laws were only for ancient generations. They refuse to consider God in the equation – as if by ignoring Him they can do away with Him and His directives on how man should live. How foolish. God is not mocked. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of sodomy. He abhors it, he names it an abomination, and He will bring judgment on those who practice such, and on those societies that encourage and celebrate it.

Homosexual marriage has become a cause célèbre for liberals and “social progressives” who do not want to live in a society that honors God. They choose politicians who have worse, or certainly no better, moral values than themselves. That makes them part of the ruling class, they think. Listen to them in these threads. “We won! You serve US now!“

It is also a cause célèbre for fascists, marxists, Muslims, and all America-haters. They push for it, because it justifies their hatred of this country and all subversive or terrorist attacks on the United States of America. And if we come under the control of a Fascist or Islamic regime, the first to be targeted and destroyed will be the homosexuals.

There should be no doubt that granting homosexual marriage will further weaken our country and foment hatred and strife. However, this is the goal of the agitators behind the movement. Then, again, if it is possible that the nation escapes fascism perpetrated by the present administration and political leaders, or takeover by Islamic interests, and if same-sex unions proliferate, in a few generations, America could be only a wasteland

Homosexuals demand legitimacy
for their abhorrent sexual lifestyle. They know they are deviant, but if they can get enough foolish people to say that they are just the “normal” average Joe, then they can appear in society as the norm. But that doesn’t satisfy them, they aspire to trump every moral code and replace it with their amorality. Perhaps the last barrier to a culture losing its moral base is marriage. Monogamous marriage separates human beings from the animals. Even some animals, an humbling indictment of divorce among humans, mate for life and procreate their species.

Marriage was instituted and ordained by God for a man and a woman as the moral and practical context for procreating and rearing children. Homosexuals unions do not produce children. There is no practical, moral, or legal la raison de être for the existence of “homosexual marriage’ that will benefit society. The union/marriage of a man and a woman has been the fundamental social unit in every society, and strong families are the foundation of strong communities.

There is clear danger to our culture, to our society: If homosexuals can claim the prize of making marriage legal for their deviant practitioners, they destroy the real meaning of marriage and the benefits that marriage brings to civilized people and their societies. It is important that children grow up learning the differences between male and female. I do not mean simple biological differences, nor do I refer to “gender roles.” However, having a role model of one’s own gender and the love and affirmation of the opposite sex parent is vital to a child in becoming a stable, well-rounded self-sufficient person. Consider this one fact: Many fewer children raised in two-parent homes (male and female parents) end up in prison.

Whoo hoo!!!

Another nutter!

Oh! Joy!


a homosexual blowhard nutter
We have commentary from the left of nutter country, MelwhoreSJ. There's nothing nutty about expressing sincere thoughts. You do it all the time.

You wouldn't come on with a snide remark if this lady were in favor of "gay marriage," would you?

Gay marriage so-called, is the very Mt Everest of nutcase delusions. You have to be a simpleton to the core if you believe two males can plausibly marry.

No Christianity = No Gay Marriage
Gay marriage fans, before attacking the Christians, consider this:

97% of the worlds countries have marriage ceremonies that require the participation of 2 different genders. The 3% of nations that perform the recent (apparently unusual) gay marriage phenomenon have populations that are over 70% Christian. To blame Christianity or Christians for restricting the growth of the same-sex marriage experiment is not only improper but, (unless you're stupid) the complete opposite of reality. After all if Christianity were the impediment to anatomically similar humans getting married, it would be celebrated somewhere...anywhere in the non- Christian world.

Same sex marriage advocates need to thank Jesus for the liberal outlook of so many of his followers.

Sorry!

Sorry if my last post offended everyone,
but Jesus Christ completely avoided, ignored and never mentioned the homosexuals of the Roman Empire in which he lived.
To use his name to promote Or attack this absurd concoction (gay marriage) is somewhat inapropriate.

Research is important.
To say that marriage has kept our civilization the way it is for thousands of years is uninformed. Even just looking at Rome at the start of the BC calender, the most common form of union has been one male, many women. The 1/1 marriage is actually one of the rarest forms of union in history.

I am a straight male who will have one wife, however that doesn't mean I assume the right to tell anyone else who they can be with. To do so is to consider yourself morally superior, which I feel would be against the teachings of Jesus.

Protecting marriage

How would two homosexuals getting married hurt your marriage? I just don't see it.
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