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Monday, April 21, 2008
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Report Uncovers Hidden Cost of Immigration
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Are you having a hard time paying your bills, making your mortgage payments, or putting your kids through college? You need to know how much of your hard-earned income the government is skimming off and diverting into handouts to immigrants and illegal immigrants.

You can read the depressing details in the new 70-page document called "The Economic and Fiscal Impact of Immigration" by Edwin S. Rubenstein (www.eagleforum.org/sources). A Manhattan Institute adjunct fellow with a mile-long scholarly resume, he has been doing financial analysis ever since he directed the studies of government waste for the Grace Commission of 1984.

The bottom line, which you need to know for your own bottom line, is that U.S. taxpayers are giving more than $9,000 a year in cash or benefits to each immigrant, a third of whom are in the country illegally. That's $36,000 for each immigrant household of four.

Because the U.S. has 37 million immigrants, legal and illegal, the national cost was more than $346 billion last year, which was twice our fiscal deficit. The cost of immigrants is so high because, as Rubenstein writes, "Immigrants are poorer, pay less tax and are more likely to receive public benefits than natives."

Big Brother hasn't told you this bad news, perhaps because the government doesn't want you to know why your paychecks are shortchanged. Even the huge amnesty bill that was defeated last year didn't contain one word about its budgetary consequences.

The financial burden immigrants impose on education starts with the 3.8 million K-12 students enrolled in more-expensive classes for the non-English-speaking. When we add up the costs of hiring specialized teachers, training regular teachers, student identification and assessment, and administration costs, the total amounts to an estimated $1,030 per pupil, or $3.9 billion.

Of the 48.4 million public-school children, pre-K through 12th grade, 9.2 million or 19 percent are immigrants or the children of immigrants. In the next few years, immigration will account for virtually all the increase in public school spending.

Look at the $1.5 billion cost of incarcerating 267,000 criminal aliens in federal prisons. That's not the worst of it; prison capacity is limited, so 80,000 to 100,000 other criminal aliens have been prematurely released to prowl our streets.

Criminals also impose heavy private costs on their victims. Rubenstein estimates the losses of income and property, hospital bills and emotional suffering at $1.6 million per assault- or property-crime offender.

Rubenstein's report includes all sorts of costs that other observers conveniently ignore, such as the Earned Income Tax Credit. EITC gives an average cash payment of $1,700 per year to 25 percent of immigrant households.

The emergency medical treatment given free to illegal immigrants is another enormous cost, causing some hospitals and emergency rooms to close. Emergency means any complaint from hangovers to hangnails, gunshot wounds to AIDS.

Even after some restrictions were imposed in 1996, 24.2 percent of immigrant households receive Medicaid, whereas the figure for native-born Americans is 14.8 percent. Rubenstein calculates that Hispanics account for 19.2 percent of Medicaid enrollment, while they are 13.7 percent of the U.S. population.

The FHA has had a policy of increasing home ownership among low-income immigrants and therefore approved FHA mortgages on homes with a down payment of only $200 to $300 and marginal income. Because buyers have so little invested in the house, they can walk away from it when they can't meet the payments, and this has resulted in neighborhoods of abandoned, boarded-up housing.

Refugees are a large and growing fiscal burden because they become immediately eligible for generous taxpayer-paid benefits. Evidence shows they stay dependent on these programs and start chain-migrating relatives under the "family reunification" law.

The Interior Department spends millions of dollars to clean up the mountains of trash discarded by illegal immigrants crossing into California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Some immigration advocates peddle the notion that immigration will solve the future financial burdens of Social Security. Rubenstein shows how foolish is this prediction because today's low-wage workers will surely become tomorrow's expensive retirees.

Another cost that few talk about is that immigrant workers depress the wages received by native-born Americans, and that causes a $100 billion shortfall in federal tax revenue. Harvard University Professor George Borjas found that each 10 percent increase in the U.S. labor force from immigration reduces wages of native-born Americans by 5.25 percent.

Some liberals are trying to tell us to fight a recession by bringing in more immigrants, but that would only raid the pockets of U.S. taxpayers to support more millions of non-taxpayers. It's hard to say which is more outrageous: the diversion of Americans' personal income into cash handouts to foreigners, or the federal government's policy of concealing the fiscal impact of immigration.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Thank you
For bringing these hidden costs out into the open. It is time we had an open and frank discussion on what we are going to do as a nation about illegal immigration.

Do You Want To Keep Your Country?


Illegal aliens are not immigrants. Immigrants seek our permission first by applying for a visa. They keep their documents in order and comply with our laws. Illegal aliens do not. They sneak across the border and acquire fraudulent I.D. The open borders crowd know that most Americans are predisposed to favor legal immigration. By purposely confusing illegal aliens with (legal) immigrants (really the only kind), the left and the media hope to marginalize those of us who are speaking out against amnesty as being xenophobic, nativist, racist, restrictionist, anti-immigrant bigots. I am not any of those. I am an American citizen whose citizenship means something to him. I like immigrants. I know people from all over the world. I am totally opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens, regardless of where they are from. I am for retaining our rule of law and sovereignty. The debate must center on the willful disregard for the laws of this country. Americans have been a welcoming people. We just want people to respect us, our country, our history, our culture, our language and our laws.

well....
If you we are such big fools so as to give our money away, why shouldn't they willing to take it? I would. Americans think we have all the answers and spit in God's face. He is just showing us how contemptible we really are. How stupid do you have to be to pay people to violate your laws.

Lurking danger
On several fronts immigration and illegal immigration are potentially dangerous. Some of the things were covered in PSs column.

It is pretty obvious that Low skill / low wage people are generally tax consumers, not tax payers & low skill / low wage people tend to commit more crime.

What is not as obvious is that immigration in the age of diversity and the welfare state is much more risky. Gone are the pressures and incentives for new arrivals to assimilate. Many of our new arrivals may end up forming another durable underclass. These new arrivals are more likely to form a tight knit special interest group that pushes for a larger welfare state.

Just ask the Native Americans how important it is to control immigration to your lands.

One day, we too may wake up to a country we do not recognize and wonder how it happened.

The dim media propaganda
Dims and their special interests, led by msm, are fomenting the "America is the land of immigrants" line to fool the middle class about illegals. Everyone knows, works or has met an illegal that is probably hard working and family oriented. That's the plus side. They use it to cover up the criminals and welfare masses that soak our social programs. In addition, especially in border states, we've had Hispanics that settled these lands just as much as other Americans. And many of those are just as much against illegals as the rest of us yet the media calls all of us bigots. Because they need the votes to build their communist government system.

Government doesn't work and more taxes is just more waste and a government jobs program for libs. Stop it now and vote down dims. If your representative doesn't follow this, get rid of them. I don't care how much they bring in or how long they've been there. There has to be a bigger revolution than '94 to get their attention.

Is she still alive?!
Not that it matters to those who seem more than happy to believe Ms. Schlafly's nonsense, but poverty-level, working class immigrants have next to zero opportunities to enter the U.S. legally or to stay and work here legally.

Job-based visas are typially beyond the reach of most. Those who qualify by virtue of having an immediate relative in the U.S. typically must wait from six to 14 years for a work permit.

Most "illegal aliens" I've known would eagerly have followed reasonable procedures to establish legal residency if reasonable procedures existed.

The problem isn't the desperately poor people who come here to work to provide for their families. It's the broken immigration system, unfair trade deals and other economic policies.

Perry White
are you saying we need more low skilled poor people in the US? I thought we already had enough net tax consumers.

It is nice to care about poor people in other countries... but we need to care about the US first, and the poor people here how are failing to integrate.

Ending birthright-citizenship
would probably be a good thing for the US--as this has been so heavily abused, particularly by Mexican illegals (through crocodile-tear "separation of family" logic).

Another reform that should be done is elimination of the US-citizen sibling sponsorship (which is what Perry referenced in "virtue of having immediate relative in US")--basically, if they have to use such a measure, they probably don't deserve to immigrate (FYI, even Soviet Canuckistan was sensible enough to remove its comparable category).

You won't believe this, but...
Johnnyp writes: Perry White are you saying we need more low skilled poor people in the US?

PW: Well, yes. I am saying that. So are lots of farmers and small-business owners who can't find citizens willing and able to do crappy, backbreaking work for minimum wage.




svpallava
I have said the same thing.

That amendment to the Constitution is another instance of the gift of slavery that keeps on giving.

The way the constitution is written now, and French female could be on vacation in the US and give birth. The child of a French citizen would be American just because of the place the mother went into labor - that's crazy.

Not exactly true
"Immigrants are poorer, pay less tax and are more likely to receive public benefits than natives."

Some immigrants are poorer--this is especially true of those who are illegal, but many immigants who come here legally are not poor. The most common profession for Taiwanese immigrants are college professor and business owner--hardly can be described as poor.

As for public benefits, a number of studies show that immigrants actually use less in public services than do the native born.

PS also ignores the economic benefits of legal immigration--how much economic activity is generated by the scores and scores of immigrant business owners? Ever heard of Jerry Yang (Yang Chih Yuan)?

Of course a nativist like PS doesn't ever take these into consideration.


Citizenship by birth
And Svpallava:

Easier said than done, while PS claims the 14th was never meant to apply to children of illegals (and she is right on this point..even a blind...), Wong Kim Ark plainly stated that "a child born in the United States of parents of foreign descent who, at the time of the child's birth are subjects of a foreign power but who have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States and are carrying on business in the United States, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under a foreign power, and are not members of foreign forces in hostile occupation of United States territory, becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth."

Now some claim--wrongly--that this meant to apply to legal immigrants as Wong's parents were in the US legally (although theu themselves until 1942 would have be banned for obtaining US citizenship). The court didn't specify "legal" just permanent and many illegals certaintly qualify under that standard.

Please tell me when you are going to get Congress to pass and a president to sign a bill eliminating Jus Soli, please tell me what court would uphold it. Sorry, you are stuck with birth-right citizenship. The key is stopping people from getting illegally to have children in the first place.

Students, tourists, or an illegal who enter the US last week probably could be eliminated as the Wong case cited pernament and students and tourists aren't, but children born to these are also granted citizenship. But a person living in the US for years, working here, having an apartment or house, sounds pretty pernament to me.

Actually no
"The way the constitution is written now, and French female could be on vacation in the US and give birth. The child of a French citizen would be American just because of the place the mother went into labor - that's crazy."

The Wong decision stresses permanent, a child born to a tourist could not be granted citizenship and still be in compliance with both the 14th and Wong Decision, but a person living, working, having an apartment, house, car, utliities in their name, you can't argue they have not established a pernament domicile, which was the standard set forth in Wong.

Citizenship to children of tourists is granted anyway, but they could constitutionally deny such.


Perry White
in that case I would advocate a guest worker program.

-definite duration in country
-defined and limited social benefits
-no children or schools
-immediate eviction upon conviction
-APB the second they overstay a visa
-not a path to citizenship
-Specific ID and check in intervals

Really
"the poor people here how are failing to integrate."

First generation immigrants in the 1920s or 1880s that you all love to point to didn't either. But Hispanic (and others) second generation children are fluent in English.

"Nearly all Hispanic adults born in the United States of immigrant parents report they are fluent in English. By contrast, only a small minority of their parents describe themselves as skilled English speakers."

From the Hispanic Pew Center--see url:

http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=82


Me too
"in that case I would advocate a guest worker program."

But the xenophobes are against that too. Maybe they should do farm work, instead?

Over A million
Immigrants were proccessed into the US last year by INS. HOW THE HELL IS THE SYSTEM BROKEN!!!

Come on folks, over a million legally proccessed in, that not a broken system unless your a LIB looking for potential new voters.

I can;t wait to hear the lib defense...

A few things
"Immigrants were proccessed into the US last year by INS. HOW THE HELL IS THE SYSTEM BROKEN!!!"

The INS no longer exists, you mean USCIS.

1 million people who enter on an immigraiton visa and not all of these remain in the US for the rest of their lives--a good number go back home--forever. It is quite popular in Taiwan for example to get citizenship in another country, the US is a popular one, along with Canada and Australia--because you never know what may happen--with a large country 120 miles away who continues to threaten to invade.

The US from year to year admits about 1 million, which is far less than the number that is produced naturally (around 4 million per year).

Oh and the US on a per capita basis takes in less than either Canada or Australia.


Zing...
// Akagi writes: Monday, April, 21, 2008 2:34 PM
Me too
"in that case I would advocate a guest worker program."

But the xenophobes are against that too. Maybe they should do farm work, instead?//

For someone that seems to respect specific premises you're sure using largess brushes to carry your point.

You and I both know that this article isn't touching the small amount of Asian immigrants (or illegal aliens) that barely touch the surrogate teat. I drive by two social services offices everyday and they are not flooded out the doors with Asian people because the border next to Chula Vista and San Ysidro is not China or Tawian. The border isn't overridden with Vietnamese militants working for the Mexican cartels and the continuing murders of police chiefs in Tijuana are not Thai in origin.

Fox news documented that half of the children at my daughters high school we wealthy Mexicans coming across the border daily to an American school. They sheriff threatened to jail them for filming in public on the border and the entrance to the school to document the acts.

I guess it's xenophobic to desire my taxes to be used lawfully.

Being against
Illegal immigration does not make a person a xenophobe... I for one am totally for LEGAL immigration and totally AGAINST illegal immigration.

Personally I find it reprehesible that anyone would lable another person a xenophobe simply because we ask that our laws be followed.

To those who think our policy is broken, how about if we adopt Mexico's immigration policy... It's Mexican hipocracy to complain about our policy...

Akagi writes
"The US from year to year admits about 1 million, which is far less than the number that is produced naturally (around 4 million per year)."

Is that to mean we should be admitting in to our country an equal amount of immigrants as we have legal citizens giving birth here?

a 50/50 mix of immigrants/citizen births?

We don;t have enough employment in this country to support that rate for starters, and second, who on this planet has the given RIGHT to come to the US and live?

Fivo
PS seems to paint with a broad brush too so I decided to return the favor. She uses the term immigrants which include legal and illegal and actually Asian immigration is not small--three of the top ten countries that send immigrants to the US are Asian--China, the ROK and the Philippines.

Also, various studies have shown that immigrants take in less social services than the native born--a point that contradicts her point.

Her point is that immigrants---legal and illegal cost the US--perhaps true, but legal immigration overall benefits the US.

Illegal immigration and illegal use of services like healthcare and schools (those living in Mexico and crossing the border to simply obtain the services) is an issue that should be addressed, but that is not the point of PS' article.




Perry White writes
Perry White writes
Is she still alive?!
Yes she is very much alive and well aware economicaly you are not simply addessing or too dumb too : But your a proven moron man walking !
If your "great foreign " friends want to come to America like all of our familes did up until 1965 ...... We didn't get a ""Penny" of Governmnet welfare programs you Socialist on the left want for all America can't pay for since we have 12.9 of our black population getting 37.6 % of all welfare dollars now and 64 % of all Prisnors are black and 28 % are wet backs and 24 % ain't legal .
It is the traditions of America you want to destroy and one suspects your own hate of big Business's and white folks or your a white elite jerk off .

Mass Immigration is a Continuing Relic
Mass immigration is a very expensive welfare program for the slective chosen of the world's poor. It's a relic of centuries past that inexplicably continues to this day.

In a modern day welfare state such as the United States, poor uneducated English-challenged people are simply a net burden on our society. The costs of caring for the uneducated and unskilled immigrants with proportionally larger families are simply greater than the hard work and limited skills that they bring. This study merely gives empirical evidence to common sense.

I hear calls for "guest" worker programs. Yeah, they sound like a solution to the supposed "need" for cheap unskilled labor but the reality is that they are almost never temporary. Once here, these guests almost always manage to find a way to stay. Put in all the supposed strict measures and limitations that you want, but the reality is that most will find a way to stay -- through liberal judges, weak enforcement, cracks in the system, anchor babies, sham marriages, or simply illegally.

It's time to face the fact that "cheap" labor ain't cheap in a welfare state such as the United States. Like the old Midas commercial, you can pay me now (through higher wages) or you can pay me later (through generous welfare and entitlement benefits). I say let's just allow our native born the opportunity to make a decent market wage for the hard work they perform instead of paying for a lot of "cheap" imported labor that has steep hidden costs that will have to be paid later.

Immigration Report Ignores Reality
The report mentioned is highly flawed. Below is a letter I placed in the Washington Times containing one of my criticisms.


Costing out immigration

The article "Report says immigration costly" (Nation, Wednesday) faithfully reported the conclusions of a fatally flawed study designed to artificially increase the costs of immigration. Unfortunately the study ignored economic reality.

The study uses spurious logic to make its conclusion. One claim made is that $100 billion in taxes were not collected due to "the reduction of native incomes caused by immigrant workers." That is as fallacious as saying that competing car manufacturers decrease the profits of GM, thus depriving the government of tax revenue.

Far from being a burden on public services, almost all of the nation's population growth over the last 30 years has been due to immigration. When New York faced a declining population and bankruptcy in the 1970s, it was a radical influx of immigrants in the 1980s that returned it to financial stability. Far from costing the government money, immigrants fill the government's coffers.


Teqsand
I never said being against illegal immigration makes one a xenophobe, now did I--I'm against illegal immigration, but since you claim to support legal immigration as I too am a big supporter of legal immigration. I simply reject your claim that taking in only 3.5 immigrants per 1000 which is the US rate which is half the amount Canada takes on a per capita basis means the US system is broken.

And as the CATO Institute pointed out the rate of immigration relative to the US population size now is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of the US population is about a third of what it was in the peak years. So was the system broken then when the US took in 3 times per capita as many? Or was it not broken then because 90% were white, but broken now because most are not white. Of the top ten countries that send immigrants to the US, only two have white majorities.

I also never said anyone had a right to immigrate to the US, as I said I meant taking in 1 million a year doesn't mean the system is broken. The legal system works quite well--except for the slowness--for some it can take a decade or more to be granted an immigration visa and the fact the US has no real system to bring in enough low skilled workers to meet the demands of US industry and for the people that oppose ANY guest worker program, yes, I'd say that makes them a xenophobe or a bigot, take your pick.



Do it by state, not by individuals
If the goal is to get rid of entities that consume more federal money than they produce, the better bet is to do it on a wholesale state-by-state basis, not the much more difficult task of going after individuals.

Which states to cut off? Easy. Just get an electoral map from 2000 or 2004 and cut off all the states that are colored red. By pure coincidence, they're the welfare queens, the people who draw on the tax-paying citizens of the rest of the country.

(One exception: Texas is red but gets to stay. All that oil, I suppose. Or the wind power.)

A few things
"We didn't get a ""Penny" of Governmnet welfare programs you Socialist on the left want for all America can't pay for since we have 12.9 of our black population getting 37.6 % of all welfare dollars now and 64 % of all Prisnors are black and 28 % are wet backs and 24 % ain't legal .
It is the traditions of America you want to destroy and one suspects your own hate of big Business's and white folks or your a white elite jerk off."

A few things to you recon.

First, what does the welfare rate of blacks have to do with immigration? And do you usually go around using the words of a bigot?

And there are good reasons to distrust big business...since you seem to have an issue of illegals, who do you think hires them and fought hard to get McCain-Kennedy--do firms like Pilgrims Pride ring a bell, how about the shameful acts of UPS during the Hainan Island incident? Oh who do you think are some of the major sponsors of the Beijing Olympics--aka Genocide Olympics? Coke, UPS, GE?

Shall we go on?

Oh and "welfare" predates 1965 by quite a good deal--things like NRA, WPA, etc ring any bells?

Stop Importing Poverty
We don't need any more uneducated, unskilled, low wage workers. We want intelligent, educated immigrants who WANT to become Americans, first and foremost, and who can contribute more than manual labor to our economy.

To all those crybabies who can't find workers--try raising your wages and see what happens.

Welfare
"Just get an electoral map from 2000 or 2004 and cut off all the states that are colored red."

I bet Flordia and Nevada and Georgia too--all red in 2000 and 2004 produce more revenue for the Imperial Ferderal Government than they consume. And as far as that goes, perhaps the IFG can give back some of the 87% of the State of Nevada is occupies. Perhaps more western states could produce more if much of their territory were not under federal occupation.


You're correct on legal immigration
//Akagi writes: Monday, April, 21, 2008 3:33 PM
Fivo
PS seems to paint with a broad brush too so I decided to return the favor. She uses the term immigrants which include legal and illegal and actually Asian immigration is not small--three of the top ten countries that send immigrants to the US are Asian--China, the ROK and the Philippines.

Also, various studies have shown that immigrants take in less social services than the native born--a point that contradicts her point.

Her point is that immigrants---legal and illegal cost the US--perhaps true, but legal immigration overall benefits the US.

Illegal immigration and illegal use of services like healthcare and schools (those living in Mexico and crossing the border to simply obtain the services) is an issue that should be addressed, but that is not the point of PS' article.//

I would agree on these points of legal immigration. However, I live in illegal central where the help desk and Chula Vista, San Ysidro, and San Diego social security offices all can be heard discussing in fluent Spanish how to circumvent the system to receive benefits illegally. Cops don't care, mayors don't care, and in fact they encourage this lawlessness.

I heartily agree that discussing anything which combines legal and illegal immigration statistics is silly because the two processes are defined by their inherent intent if nothing else.

In the spirit of that statement, could you direct me to the study that denotes illegal immigration using less social services than natives?

Having been raised and served with many legal immigrants, I fundamentally believe they carry the spirit that describes the positive values you've described.

Yeah that works
kapahulu writes:

"We don't need any more uneducated, unskilled, low wage workers. We want intelligent, educated immigrants who WANT to become Americans, first and foremost, and who can contribute more than manual labor to our economy.

To all those crybabies who can't find workers--try raising your wages and see what happens."

Most of your legal immigrants aren't uneducated, unskilled or low wage earners. And as for the illegals that do fit this description mostly, the US doesn't import them exactly willingly.

As for raising wages, okay, and since the minimum wage in Guangdong is 780 Renminbi or about 111 USD a month, raising wages will really keep textile mills and the like from moving to Guangzhou or Xiamen, now won't they?

Perry, do you own a BMW?
"poverty-level, working class immigrants have next to zero opportunities to enter the U.S. legally"

You seem to be implying that the lack of opportunity to do something legally confers the right to do it illegally. Well, I have next to zero opportunity to purchase a BMW legally, so can I steal yours?


Kill kill kill...
ReCon-USMC writes: Perry White...your a proven moron man walking!...a white elite jerk off.

PW: Alleged, but not proven.



Akagi
First I never said our system was broken, in fact I think it works rather well. A million folks in last year legally, hell we don;t have that many vacant jobs. But to proccess a million folks is amazing.

Second, We do have a system that brings in low skilled workers, not that or politically correct country needs them. We have career welfare folks, prisioners, and many folks who can do those jobs. I don;t consider construction a job that "Americans won;t do" that is such BS!!!

Thirdly, yes we used to have higher ratio of immigrants years and years ago. But the grand opening special is over, we do not need more folks coming here that resources can handle. Look at Miami, they are suing central florida for water because they allowed to many folks to live there... simple economics.

Forth, did you not say at 3:20
"The US from year to year admits about 1 million, which is far less than the number that is produced naturally (around 4 million per year)."

Did you not imply there should be some balance?

Lastly, to imply I'm racist is histericle, My wife is an immigrant, half white, and my 5 stepkids are only 1/4 white and ALL serve proudly in our military.


Quibble All You Like
As I've said many times before, I like in Cook County, Illinois which is a haven for illegal immigrants. Our taxes are the highest in the nation.

Yes I am eeking by trying to cover my own mortgage and my property taxes, while I see the roads are still pot holed and we ran out of road salt to deal with the snow over the winter. Nothing is getting done to beautify or repair the cities of Cook County, and yet, our taxes keep rising and rising.

Why? "They" won't say, but Phyllis sure did, and she's right, and we all know she's right, and yet if we agree with her, we're coined "racist" or "xenophobe" or what have you.

If you truly don't think a flood of illegal immigrants will have any detriment upon your wallet, then my friend, you haven't been affected by it all yet, but you will.

When your town is crumbling down around you and you don't recognize where you once lived, and yet, you're paying through the nose on taxes to cover What We Don't Speak Of, then you've arrived.

I have no real solutions. I only know the real problems.

Immigration
Grumpy:

While I can't speak for Perry, I would think his point is the false call by people like Sean Hannity that goes like this--"we like immigrants, we just won't them to come here legally, fill out the forms." He makes it seem like the illegals were too lazy to fill out some paperwork. The fact is as Perry pointed out, it is virtually impossible for a Mexican peasant to legally immigrate to the US--it is impossible to do it legally.

While I don't support illegal immigration, I can understand their plight--you have a rich country in the north and you live in a NIC with a rural economy basically destroyed by NAFTA--wouldn't you cross the border to feed your family?

And Fivo, depends how you define "social services." Most illegals (and most legal, non-US citizens) are banned from Federal welfare--something pushed by the GOP Congress and Clinton signed--the Immigrant Responsibility Act.

If you add the higher cost of ESL and emergency room care (which by court decisions can't be denied), you may have a debate on this point with illegals--but not the legal community.

As for refugees, the US takes in so few, even if they do use more social services, the numbers are so small as not to be significant.

No no
"I like in Cook County"

I meant I LIVE in Cook County, and no I don't like Cook County.

But will they eat a BMW?
Grumpy writes: Perry, do you own a BMW? You seem to be implying that the lack of opportunity to do something legally confers the right to do it illegally. Well, I have next to zero opportunity to purchase a BMW legally, so can I steal yours?

PW: This is a variation of your who-gets-the-coins-in-the pool question, right?

The answer to the pool question is that the strong swimmer who collected three times as many coins as the weak swimmer should, by virtue of being stronger, snatch the weak swimmer's coins and splash water in his face.

As for the BMW, I'm the wrong person to ask. The BMW I had developed engine problems at 38K.

But if what you're really asking is whether the desire for a fine German sedan is as compelling a reason to break the law as crossing a border so you can feed your family, then the answer is no.




Immigrants
"Did you not imply there should be some balance?"

It did not. It implied that 1 million is not exactly a tsunami.

And about the system being broken, you're right--I misread, you were trying to be sarcastic and I misread it.

And for these points:

"We have career welfare folks, prisioners, and many folks who can do those jobs. I don;t consider construction a job that "Americans won;t do" that is such BS!!!"

You'd still even if you could get all those to work in jobs being done by illegals now be short in the need of workers.

"we do not need more folks coming here."

Actually you do. If you think your economy sucks now, just cut off the high skilled immigrants. Should the US keep the next Jerry Yang from coming? And it's hysterical, FYI. I never said you are a racist--I never used the term racist once. I said people who oppose ANY guest worker program were either a xenophobe or a bigot, take your pick.

And Shells she didn't say "a flood of illegal immigrants" she said immigrants which include legal immigrants, who employ thosuands of Americans, build thousands of businesses (immigrants create more small businesses than do the native born), pay taxes for your pot holed city (not that I'd agree Chicago is beautiful, but tastes I suppose), etc.







Akagi
"raising wages will really keep textile mills and the like from moving to Guangzhou or Xiamen, now won't they?"

It won't do much for the textile mills but the fields and meat processing plants won't be moving to Guangzhou or Xiamen.

I hope we have some consensus that the supressing the minimum wage costs us more.

I agree on the disengenuousness of Hannity et al saying they like legal immigration. They like the military and want to increase it. They like tax cuts and want to increase them. Do they want to increase legal immigration?

A test for xenophobes:

Do you oppose gay rights on a biblical basis but ignore numerous other biblical commands? That would make you a xenophobe rather than a righteous person.

Do you oppose affirmative action for college entries but favor legacy admissions? That would make you a xenophobe rather than a supporter of meritocracy.

Cam
I oppose affirmative action and I oppose legacy admissions and I oppose atheltic "schloarships."

I don't support gay marriage really, but it wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep at night if it became legal.

But how does this relate xenophobia since the term comes from the Greek (xenos meaning "foreign" and phobos meaning "fear.") I suppose you can argue that xenophobia covers the fear of anyone different and thus gays and minorities can be classed as "xenos" but in general, the term is restricted to foreingers and not homosexuals or native minorities.

You can't move a meat packing plant to Xiamen, but you can move it to Tijuana. If the plants couldn't find local, yet illegal now paid labor, you think they'd hesitate to move them?




No, Perry
"But if what you're really asking is whether the desire for a fine German sedan is as compelling a reason to break the law as crossing a border so you can feed your family, then the answer is no."

What I'm really asking is does "the lack of opportunity to do something legally confer the right to do it illegally"?

On the seperate issue
The "coins in the pool" was about progressive taxation, as I'm sure you know (I don't recall seeing your answer). You previously claimed to support it, now you say the rich should steal from the poor (and splash them)?

Akagi
You said of me : "And Shells she didn't say "a flood of illegal immigrants" she said immigrants which include legal immigrants, who employ thosuands of Americans, build thousands of businesses (immigrants create more small businesses than do the native born), pay taxes for your pot holed city (not that I'd agree Chicago is beautiful, but tastes I suppose), etc."

No, Shells said a Flood of Illegal Immigrants, and nowhere was I speaking of legal immigrants at all.

I have no opposition to legal immigrants because they pay taxes and share the burdens we all as American citizens do, and as you said, they are prosperous.

I cheer that on, however, the onslaught of illegal immigrants have drained our resources so much that small businesses are shutting down left and right due to all the high taxes we're being foisted upon to cover them all.

As far as Chicago being beautiful, it is only when you look up. I'm in the northern suburbs in what used to be considered very nice modest neighborhoods which were maintained very well and a decent place to set down roots and live until you die. Now, it's considered a "starting place to live so you can GTFO quick and go somewhere better."


I know you don't
"No, Shells said a Flood of Illegal Immigrants, and nowhere was I speaking of legal immigrants at all."

I know, but the article lumps both in the same pot--legal and illegal...PS obviously has issues with legal immigrants too. She is at least honest--many of those who are against all immigration--simply use illegal immigration as way to attack all immigration.


Grumpy for sure
In the narrow context of your humorless reply, no, the lack of opportunity to do something doesn't convey any "rights" I'm aware of.

Yet beyond the confines of your black and white world, mitigating factors...such as having starving children to feed...matter in deciding whether a violation of law is a big deal or a little one.

My point was that stealing a BMW for a joy ride is a bigger deal crimewise than crossing a border to feed your children.

My belated response to your coin question was sarcastic. I'll explain: Because I perceive you to be an advocate of social-Darwinism, I exaggerated the answer I thought you might give had the pool-coins question been put to you. Get it?

I'm tired of these boobs.....
I'm tired of these boobs who talk about how much these illegals do for the economy by working hard and paying their taxes. They send the bulk of their money home to Mexico and use three times as much in government benefits, emergency rooms, schools for their children, etc. etc. Poll after poll has shown the American people to be opposed to illegal immigration. I'm damn tired of pressing 1 for English, 2 for Spanish.
I don't want my children to have to press 1 for Spanish, 2 for English someday.

Hey, Perry
"the lack of opportunity to do something doesn't convey any 'rights' I'm aware of." Then what was the point of your original post about the difficulty of immigrating legally? Or is that point -- and post -- moot now that you're changing tacks and arguing whether it's a "big deal"?

BTW: how big a deal is it to steal someone's identity? Or to depress the wages of Americans who also have children to feed? Or to bog down classrooms and hospitals, reducing the quality of service provided to all?

Keeping seperate issues seperate
"Because I perceive you to be an advocate of social-Darwinism, I exaggerated the answer I thought you might give had the pool-coins question been put to you. Get it?"

Yes, I get it. You ascribe to me attitudes and philosophies that suit your preconceptions, then hypothesize the answer that your strawman version of me might have given in order to avoid answering the question put to you.

Don't just curse the darkness...
... get involved to save America! Middle Americans JUST LIKE YOU have stopped scamnesty so far, but it is an ongoing challenge against monied, powerful, organized special interests! As Mexifornia residents can attest, we risk losing America soon due to ILLEGAL alien voter fraud, the Reconquista agenda, and morphing ineluctably into a third world welfare state as they vote it in. The left is not waiting for them to become citizens-- why be bothered by that mere technicality?! They load them up in vans and hand them instructions in Espanol on how to vote. It is "40 acres and a mule/we're your friends" all over again.

Many RINOS/CINO'S are utter FOOLS to speak of capturing some of their votes because of purported "conservative social values." [What, pray tell, is "conservative" about wanton penchants toward crime, drugs, gangs, illegitimacies, ignorance/dropouts, barrio blight and balkanization, tax dodging, and identity fraud?!?!]

Legal, middle class Hispanics sometimes vote as conservatives, but ILLEGALS will vote 95:5 for entitlement government, thus soon inexorably morphing America irretrievably into a welfare state third world country, partly because they will insist that their myriad indigent, ignorant relatives all come here as well. Even a lib demographer has admitted that ILLEGAL immigration is the "the mother of all unfunded mandates for government largess."

If we do not stop ILLEGALS soon, it will be TOO LATE. Join the fight by rattling cages in Congress; you can reach them directly here at their official sites, or send targeted free e-mails via NumbersUSA... bookmark the sites, and get involved ASAP! America would be a terrible thing to lose... just look at Mexifornia.

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

surreptitious machinations by Jorge etc.
The U.S.-Mexico Totalization Agreement... ever heard of it?

Most people have no knowledge whatsoever of the subterfuge played here to effect this... many in Congress were surprised by things that Presidente Jorge Bush committed to with his amigo Vicente Fox. Now the new president of Mexico is openly calling HERE for ILLEGAL aliens to protest in the streets for their "rights."

Did you wonder why the govt., in consort with a drug smuggler, went after border guards Campean and Ramos simply for doing their jobs? Because Presidente Jorge Bush wanted to influence the close Mexican election by assuring them that their wretched and ignorant would really be welcome here. While in Mexico in early 2007, Jorge promised them in Espanol to work to assure passage of scamnesty for THEM, Mexican citizens! Did you vote for Jorge Bush to represent Mexico?!

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back904.html
http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/totalization.htm
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/2/21483 4.shtml?s=lh
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst010807.htm
http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/USandMexico.htm

Join the fight now to save America
What exactly are ILLEGAL aliens "entitled to" by any elected pol, or from American society? One side likes to proffer inane apologia/prattle such as, "border crossing is a minor transgression akin to jaywalking," or "they are just trying to feed their families," or "they are just doing those jobs Americans won't do," or "America needs their cheap labor." ALL of these are willful, vacuous, disingenuous red herring dodges!

Any ILLEGAL alien (including visa violators) who works here is automatically committing multiple felonious frauds, which does not count the pandemic social pathologies which permeate with them like the plague. It is NOT the obligation
of American society and taxpayers to bail out corrupt and failed plutocratic Latin American governments by providing employment and social welfare for their myriad, ignorant indigent.

America CANNOT AFFORD this so-called "cheap labor," which actually benefits only the relative few miscreant employers-- a hotel room or head of lettuce is NO CHEAPER to the consumer as a result of ILLEGAL alien labor. When the feds make their "show raids" on miscreant employers such as meat processing plants, Americans (often the LEGAL workers previously displaced) usually refill the jobs IMMEDIATELY. With unemployment rising and the economy sliding, Middle America is less likely to tolerate these open border/cheap labor charades artfully purported by RINOS, and "we need to treat these poor people with respect" drivel proffered by the PC left.

Just below are the official contact sites for Congress... a few clicks, and you can EASILY send e-mails. Even easier--> NumbersUSA gives you FREE, prepared e-mails to send, and even targets your people in Congress for you. BOOKMARK THESE, and get engaged today!

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm
http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

Every word is consistent
with the results I've seen on the social landscape. The situation with illegals is catastrophic, and will only become worse. Phyllis writes:

"Refugees are a large and growing fiscal burden because they become immediately eligible for generous taxpayer-paid benefits. Evidence shows they stay dependent on these programs and start chain-migrating relatives under the "family reunification" law"

Here in NJ, there are those in gov't who want taxpayers to pay for the plane tickets to bring illegal immigrants' families over! This was discussed regarding Nigerians who have been separated from their families. In addition, most illegals think very little if at all about planning family size, and often have many more children than anyone can afford. We currently attract and accommodate poorly educated and limited skill level people, not to mention legions of gang members, who are quite fertile and eschew birth control. NONE of this is sustainable. Things are bad- worse than I ever imagined.

I have to believe our "leaders" are intentionally facilitating this with the goal of forcing a North American union upon us when matters hit critical mass- which is not far off at all.

Anowrast
"Far from being a burden on public services, almost all of the nation's population growth over the last 30 years has been due to immigration."

You left off the word, "illegal", and indeed significant population growth has been due to illegal immigration. Not a burden on public services?? You, my friend, are far removed from the front lines and well insulated from reality. Very far. Comfortably far.

Its not your hospitals that are clogged and/or bankrupt due to swarms of illegals. Its not your neighborhood infested with MS13, Latin Kings, DDPs, etc...and the crime that accompanies them. Its not your districts budgets broken or breaking under the cost of special education and ESL (like mine). You don't see the pregnant 11-12 year olds at Planned Parenthood clinics who think its normal and are there with their usually pregnant mothers and grandmothers. None of this has had any personal impact on you- therefore it doesn't exist. Not only doesn't exist, but you can simultaneously deny matters and romanticize about illegals.

Alot of people, and ultimately this country- which inadvertantly produced a spoiled and ignorant brat like you- are paying the price for your moronic high ideals. Although, illegals may be preferable to smug academicians who've yet to endure a single uninsulated day in the crushing arms of reality. They are, in the end, more harmful.

The problem, Perry White
is their countries! The countries of the illegals!


"The problem isn't the desperately poor people who come here to work to provide for their families. It's the broken immigration system, unfair trade deals and other economic policies."

People are desperately poor because of their overly powerful and therefore corrupt governments in combination with personal choices. ANYONE who keeps having babies WILL be desperately poor, and this is a common practice of many African and Hispanic families in my region.

Most of the illegals (I work in an alternative high school program within a large NJ high school) are on public assistance and send the money back to their native countries. Most refuse birth control and prefer that girls become pregnant ASAP. We cannot nor should we accommodate this.

Immigration does need to be reformed. Limited, and with CONDITIONS, such as mandatory birth control until self-supporting, as well as business sponsorship.





Oh Phyllis
You are breaking my heart. You have such heart,
such charity, such vision.

No need for any more arguing
Its a certainty illegal immigration is promoted by our and Mexico's Government.
They have no intention of listening to the American Citizen.

This is the true situation, and they will hear no truth or no argument about what they intend to do anyway.
That is destroy this country with anarchy by an illegal invasion, just as surely as if all these illegals put on Army Uniforms and came across to change America to their own land.

Only question is what are the American Citizens going to do.
I think they are going to bow down to the government, and the illegals.
Granting them the right to pick and choose which law they will obey.
All the while the American Citizen is going to pay for it, both by taxes and the humility of being taken over without a fight.

Like cowards, we will die a thousand deaths over all the problems from this invasion by barbarians.
Yes barbarians, cause they are criminals by the illegal immigration, bypassing immigration law.
And all the ensuing laws they break concerning driving, working and identity.

I am hoping to see the American citizens get angry enough to stop this crime wave.

Thanks for writing this
Californians for Population Stabilization estimate 20 to 38 million illegals are in the US today. THe government keeps telling us the figure is 12 million, as if, when the Census Bureau knocked on the door, all thirty came out of the house and gave them their names and immigration status.

To my knowledge, Amnesty legislation contained no limit on numbers.

In "Get Tough" Arizona, aliens are leaving in droves. Wages are rising, rents are going down.

The Dems think it will increase the tax base. But with water, food and energy shortages, they're going to have a tough time collecting taxes from people trying to feed their families. The bigger any governmental unit's tax base gets, the more money they lose.

Regardless of their "fairness" claims, the Dems want one thing only, 30 million low-income voters. They will push Amnesty next year, regardless of who wins the '08 election. It's a one way, non refundable ticket to 450 million Americans by 2050.

THis country needs a breather. We can either accept the truism NOW that a nation cannot grow forever, or we can wait until it is too late to save this nation's future. A vote for any DEM is a vote to destroy your grandchildren's future.

A VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT...
...IS A VOTE TO DESTROY YOUR GRANDCHILDREN'S FUTURE.

Pass it along, please.

Akagi writes
"While I don't support illegal immigration, I can understand their plight--you have a rich country in the north and you live in a NIC with a rural economy basically destroyed by NAFTA--wouldn't you cross the border to feed your family?"

NAFTA should help Mexico, and slow illegal immigration. If you want to stick it to the Chinese, start buying crap made in Mexico. It would help their economy and stop China's massive demand for oil. Oil prices would drop as more and more manufacturing moved to Mexico (a nation with its own oil). Finally, the Mexicans would have incentive to stay home.

We have an INVASION GOING ON
With 30 to 40 million citizens of a foreign country in our midst.
Whose loyalty is to Mexico and some other nation, NOT AMERICA.

And if this is NOT AN INVASION, what would an invasion look like to you?

The Mexican gorvenment is currupt
There is no earthly reason Mexico should be filled with poor people. It has tons or resources, both natural and human. It's their govenment. It's their caste system. That's the same reason all the other third world countries are poor.

The only reason why the U.S. is so well off is because our nation was designed to empower the people to do their best. And dang nab that's we did. Well that is until now. We don't have any more resources than they do.

Mexico has no excuse for being poor. We can't solve their problems. Only their government can.

We simply can't take on all the worlds poor people. It's a never ending supply. They need to stay home and work to get their own countries out of the poor house.

I'm sorry. There are powerfull interests that want to bring us down to the level of a third world country. They are working in our government. If you think it is only Democraps, think again. McCain is all for illegal imigration. That is why I say there is no lesser evil to vote for in this comming election.

Do NOT vote for McCain, Obama, or Clinton. All three are on a U.S. distruct team. Mark my words. Vote, but do not vote for any of the above. Your vote will be wasted if you do. It would be much better to have voters turn out and write in a candidate than to have voters not turn out. It will send the message we care enough to vote, but we will not go along with the program you are setting us up for. Whoever you write in will probably not win, but whoever the globalists have selected will win by a very small percentage. Like in the teens. Put them on notice. We are not fooled. If you vote for McCain in a misguided attempt to stop the Dems, you have wasted your vote. He is one of them. The ONLY difference is he has an R behind his name. It;s all just a mirage.

Whoa, Bessie!
When you decry illegal aliens (not immigrants there!), you have me at "hello."

When you start bemoaning the entry of legal immigrants, a revival of the Know Nothing movement comes to mind.

Remember, unless you are Native Americans or blacks (who had no choice in the matter), your ancestors were immigrants. With a name like Schlaffly (Russian? German?) you may be decended from the likes that the Native American Party wanted to keep out back in the day!

real reason for illegal alien amnesty
"Another cost that few talk about is that immigrant workers depress the wages received by native-born Americans, and that causes a $100 billion shortfall in federal tax revenue. Harvard University Professor George Borjas found that each 10 percent increase in the U.S. labor force from immigration reduces wages of native-born Americans by 5.25 percent."

This is because our corporate overlords love illegal aliens! They can underpay them, not follow OSHA guidelines, and generally abuse them.

If you want to end illegal aliens coming to this country, just go after the employers who hire them, and fine them dearly.

Invasion of Our Border
Does anyone really think that this invasion will be stopped - without the use of deadly force?

So, who will be the first to use it? Our government officials who have sworn an oath to support and defend our Constitution, and those currently elected to represent us.

Or us (We the People)?

I know which way I will bet~

Invasion of Our Border
Does anyone really think that this invasion will be stopped - without the use of deadly force?

So, who will be the first to use it? Our government officials who have sworn an oath to support and defend our Constitution, and those currently elected to represent us.

Or us (We the People)?

I know which way I will bet~

ILLEGALS and social service decimation
re:
"In the spirit of that statement, could you direct me to the study that denotes illegal immigration using less social services than natives?"

In theory, it is ILLEGAL for illegal aliens to receive welfare per se. Still, they overwhelm hospitals and schools, and overburden criminal justice, and the federal govt. REQUIRES that local service providers assist them. Then there is the issue of "anchor babies"... once an ILLEGAL madre can push one out on American soil, they can get in the welfare line.

More to the point, ANY resident who is uneducated and poor inexorably becomes a welfare burden on average, partly because today's advanced service economy America cannot provide them upward mobility when all they have to offer is manual labor. Heritage estimates that EACH household headed by the typical ignorant, indigent ILLEGAL alien will drain $1.4 MILLION more in govt. services than it ever pays in any form of taxes over a lifetime. This is aggravated further by clinging to a foreign language and culture.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR14es.cfm
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigrati on_american_infrastructure.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265 &q=immigration

As even a liberal sociologist admitted recently, future drains by current ILLEGALS will prove to be, "the mother of all unfunded mandates." the libs do not care about this; they know that current ILLEGALS mean future voters and the permanent hegemony of the left as America morphs ineluctably into a third world welfare state.

Join the fight to stop this catastrophe... please see my earlier posts below to see how YOU can easily get engaged.

Not Valid
Has anyone actually read this report? Has anyone actually verified some of the assumptions? One of the first claims is that illegal aliens are eligible for the earned income tax credit. This is false. You (and your spouse if filing a joint return) need a valid social security number to get this.

There are many false assumptions in this report. So many that one wonders whether the false claims were intentional.

Perry White
You are a typical lib who thinks that it is America's job to relieve the poverty of the world. This is plain foolishness. If you really believe this, start by leaving your front door unlocked every day and put a sign in your front yard that says "Free Room and Board for the Poor." See how long it takes before your home won't be fit for a dog much less a human.

One of the first laws of economics is the law of limited resources. All resources have limits. Whether you're talking land, water, air or taxpayer funded benefits. No matter how much you may care about others, it is simply impossible for the United States to absorb all the people in the world who would like to live here no matter how hard working they are.

If we try and do that, our country will end up being worse than the cesspools that the immigrants are fleeing from.

ILLEGAL aliens and crime
A little light reading about the "benefits" of all of that "cheap" labor... see my posts below about how YOU can get engaged to save America-- time is short! Actually, ILLEGAL alien labor is VERY expensive when all-in socio-economic costs are considered (see post just below).

Some of the common mythology proffered as apologia for ILLEGALS is that they commit crimes at a lesser rate than legal residents. This is simply a lie, though Geraldo and Smilin' Juan Hernandez throw this out as gospel in the Hitler stratagem-- tell a big enough lie often enough and the gullible will begin to buy into it. A key reason some states have reversed sanctuary policies and giving them licenses is that crime waves permeated like the plague.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/index.html
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51259
http://www.milnet.com/mex-nat.html
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigrati on_crime_summary.html
http://www.adjunct.diodon349.com/Attack_on_USA/illegal_alie ns__du_murder_rape_terrorists.htm
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_ill egalsandcrime
http://newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrat ionissuecenters0b9c
http://newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty306.htm

evidence of the clandestine agenda
If you want to read a bit about the North American Union and the related Security and Prosperity Partnership, check out the Bush White House's own publication on some of it here below.

In 2004, while visiting in Mexico, RINO open border Presidente Jorge Bush surreptitiously committed America to send S.S. funds south to Mexico even for those who had worked here only as ILLEGAL aliens... this later stunned many in Congress when they learned about it. In early 2007, Jorge told them in Spanish down in Mexico that he would be working hard for THEM, Mexican citizens, to assure passage of Kennedy-McAmnesty here.

Anyone who brays about "conspiracy theorists" really needs only read a little bit to learn that there is no "theory" involved. Presidente Jorge has been hell-bent on effecting a North American Union. If you have liked NAFTA, perhaps you will love what they have planned for you.

Personally, I would rather have been asked to vote first on such agendas... so even would many in Congress.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050323-1. html
http://www.spp.gov/index.asp
http://www.libertygunrights.com/NAUFactSheet.pdf

opposition efforts:
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.grassfire.org/
http://www.grasstopsusa.com/
http://stopspp.com/stopspp/?page_id=11
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://www.citizensunited.org/

Thanks
For a great article that is quite timely. I doubt, however, in our PC ridden world, that it will ever get widespread exposure.

Two things need to happen here:

(1) The report needs to be vetted to remove leftist talking points. Dave, above, notes a potential problem about the assumptions relating to earned income tax credit. Now, I don't know if he's right or wrong but I do know this. In the world of PC, if a non-liberal viewpoint/article/news report has ANY factual errors or dubious premises whatsoever, those will be grabbed and made into a talking point that will undermine the credibility of the entire document. We have to be factually correct all the time. If it's only 98% valid, it will be scorned by the NYT and all other MSM outlets and labeled conservative propaganda.

Is this fair? No. Michael Moore and Al Gore are obviously not held to anywhere near this standard. But that's the way it is.

(2) Once vetted, it needs to be widely disseminated through as many outlets as possible. Buy air time, newspaper space. But the word needs to be spread.
There are millions of intelligent folks out there that hear essentially nothing other than the "Immigration is what made us a great country, we're all really immigrants" side of the debate, and that if you deviate from this party line you're a xenophobe, if not an out and out bigot.

If the factual basis for the study is rock solid and it gets enough exposure, this report could make a difference.

What about it, lefties? Let's make completely sure every premise and fact is correct and then just let the American people know what those facts are. Then we can have an informed debate and people can make an informed decision. I'll bet the vast, vast majority of conservatives would just fine to let those chips fall where they may. Seems reasonable, no?

What utter nonsense
Trying to justify being here illegally by citing the length of time it takes to get permission to be here legally is like saying it wouldn't be murder if you let me decide who should die. One premise is no more stupid than the other. The 'desire' to be here gives no one the 'right' to be here. 'The immigration system is broken' refrain is true. Immigrants are getting screwed over because the illegal aliens are being given what the immigrants thought they were promised when they signed up for indentured servitude. The treasonous policy of giving illegal aliens legal status in defiance of the laws of the land needs to be stopped. Fight for the rights of the immigrants and ship the illegal aliens home.

Akagi, et al.
There are basic and fundamental flaws in your thinking. Civilized nations have immigration policies, and their enforcement is not, in most countries, controversial. Historically, the US has had policies that affected everyone of our ancestors. Today, we have policies, but do not enforce them. Further, at no time in the history of the US have we had this level or extent of uncontrolled migration into the US. Europeon and Asian migrations were relatively easy to control, as they came in by boats and were directed into ports. Whatever rules we had at the time, were then applied. Further, these migrations came at a time when the US was still expanding throughout the continent. In 1950, for example, we had less than 1/2 of our current population, and all previous migrations came before this time. What has transpired in the last 30 years has no precedent whatsoever that you can use as a meaninful comparison. Historic agricultural work programs that permitted labor to come into the US never remotely reached the numbers we currently see. Further, this was seasonal and most returned to their homes at the end of the harvest seasons. We did not have uncontrolled and unsupervised immigration, and did not permit 12 million or 20 million people who are neither known to us or the government, to live inside the US. Further, we did not historically have the government of a country, as is the case in Mexico, deliberately facilitating this out-migration into the US as a matter of policy in order to resist internal changes so that the elites can continue to control that country. Controversy has erupted precisely because of these facts.

I live in a front line state. Arizona. Every cost described above is magnified in this state, as we are one of the principal routes. It has affected every level of service, because this state does not have the tax base, and does not get the dollars necessary from Washington to provide the services necessary.

It's a win, win situation
MercuryNews.com, a silicon valley news site, has an article titled "New TB threat: Global ties bring an ancient disease to Silicon Valley". So not only are the mavens of the tech industry getting the advantage of paying H-1B visa holders wages that pad the bottom line and put American techies out of work, we, our children, you and me are being exposed to a highly contagious disease that was once all but eradicated in the United States. As an added benefit, our "Guests" who enter our nation illegally, and are here doing the jobs that Americans will no longer pay Americans to do, are also bringing drug-resistant forms of tuberculosis. Moreover,we don't even know who they are. But hey, we don't need a viable barrier along our borders, and Border Patrol Agents who try to apprehend drug smugglers should be incarcerated for very, very long periods of time. It's only right, the drug smugglers are only trying to make a living and support there families.

But none of this matters to Tina Davila, 39 late of Houston, TX. She was stabbed to death in the chest this past week for the cash she had in her hand by an illegal alien (chron.com, do an on-site search for Tina Davila). Seems the illegal alien that murdered her took offense to the fact that Tina objected to the vehicle that had her four month old daughter, Kaylynn, being carjacked. She yelled, "My baby, my baby," and "wouldn't give up" according to the story, "Angry son tries to cope with mother's carjacking death". Luckily, for police, the entire horror was caught on surveillance video. Unfortunately, the suspect, Timoteo Rios is believed to be heading to the Mexican Border.

And so it goes. However, take comfort in the fact that your elected officials have no higher priority than the well being of your family and the sovereignty of this nation. Rely upon it.

What an utterly pathetic state of affairs.

Actually untrue
"Further, at no time in the history of the US have we had this level or extent of uncontrolled migration into the US."

As a percentage of the US population, immigration is 3 times lower than it was during the peak years. From historical standards, US immigration is low, not high.

Cost of immigration?
I have an idea. Let's try an experiment. There are two things to do: (1) Deport all the illegals and (2) end all immigration for one year.

At the end of that year, let's see what the costs are and where they are incurred.

American people are the real slaves
The corporations are being supported through American tax dollars. We subsidize to these illegals what the companies don't have to give them. Decent pay, medical benefits , good working conditions....come to think of it...Americans are losing the same!!! It is fairly obvious that this"takeover" is a planned event. Bush and his elite cronies want the onslaught of illegals to continue. The planned North American Union will be the ultimate result of their efforts.(Another meeting of the three Amigos=Banditos is being held as I write.) Bush should be tried for treason. The election has been "fixed " so that every candidate is an open borders corporate shill. Americans haven't yet woken up to the fact that their country is being erased.....will they come around in time??? I doubt it.

Ha ha ha ha!
You go McCain!!!!!!

If you live in Arizona??
Why does McCain get reelected or that Governor Napolitano...or Texas Governor Rick Perry. All of those clowns support this takeover...What gives with the citizens of those states???

Just feeding their families????
A woman was rear-ended here in the greater Houston area. When she got out of her car to check the damage and talk to the other driver, the other driver SHOT HER IN THE HEAD.

These are not all just honest, hard-working people trying to feed their families. There is an epidemic influx of dangerous gangs, and they are laughing at us while pulling the trigger.

Just ask the brave officials who outlawed the aiding and abetting of illegals in their own towns about how drastically their crime rates dropped.

and BTW, the North American Union concept is not a conspiracy theory... Bush is on board and leading the way.

American Mom
You are absolutely right, it is not theory, it is a fact in the process of being accomplished.

And still, they expect our troops to hazard all they hold dear at their behest, when the greatest peril our nation faces is from an insolvent border. It is an irony bitter beyond reckoning.

lies, damm lies, and statistics
re:
"As a percentage of the US population, immigration is 3 times lower than it was during the peak years. From historical standards, US immigration is low, not high."

The above statement is erroneous and artful dodging... the percentage might have been higher in 1910, but the sheer numbers, now approaching 40 million, of the foreign born are daunting. Now comes Presidente Calderone of Mexico calling for ILLEGALS to protest again for "their rights in America." Bring it on, amigos!

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html

Excerpts from above:

* The 35.2 million immigrants (legal and illegal) living in the country in March, 2005 is the highest number ever recorded -- two and a half times the 13.5 million during the peak of the last great immigration wave in 1910.

* Between January 2000 and March 2005, 7.9 million new immigrants (legal and illegal) settled in the country, making it the highest five-year period of immigration in American history. Nearly half of post-2000 arrivals (3.7 million) are estimated to be illegal aliens.

* Immigrants make significant economic progress the longer they live in the United States, but even immigrants who have lived in the United States for 14 or 15 years still have dramatically higher rates of poverty, lack of health insurance, and welfare use than natives.

Earned Income Tax Credit
Dave writes:
Not Valid
Has anyone actually read this report? Has anyone actually verified some of the assumptions? One of the first claims is that illegal aliens are eligible for the earned income tax credit. This is false. You (and your spouse if filing a joint return) need a valid social security number to get this.
Dave I have a sister who actually works for the IRS; trust me you would not believe the crap that goes on in an effort to placate illegals, and distribute our tax dollars to them. The use of fraudulant SSN's is winked at, and IRS agents are NOT allowed to inform ICE or employers of the use of said bogus SSN's. In other words the IRS is being used as a tool of the open border bunch


pro illegal fools.
Can ANY of you tell me and my like minded patriots just WHEN enough is enough or WHEN we should stop the flow of illegals. I suspect it will happen when any one of you is personally impacted. Up to that point you DON'T CARE about America the country YOU LIVE IN.
I suppose if you were on an airline flight cross country that there would always be room for many more non paying passengers. I mean they are only trying to go see their dy ing grandmother. When the plane became overloaded with the illegal nonpaying passengers and crashed you would not count yourself xenophobic for decrying the illegal nonpaying passengers for simply wanting to see their dying grandmother. Those of you who "dont mind" illegal immigrants are just FOOLS who havent percieved the impact on a personal basis YET.

forgot to mention...
that the shooter in this case was a member of the MS-13 gang. Sure is a good thing Houston is a sanctuary city. That poor guy might not have had any bread on his table if he hadn't come here to the land of opportunity.

North American Union...
Check out http://www.thenewamerican.com for articles on how people of influence are making the NAU a reality without ever being bothered by "we the people".

lodestar
As we are furiously typing away about all of this, Jorge is in New Orleans RIGHT NOW involved in a SPP conference. I'm not sure if the Mex pres and the Canadian pm is there also. But they are NOW talking about they can further this North American Union CRAP and KILL the American way of life.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/node/6230
read up

Hey everyone
Be sure and pay your taxes. 37 million illegal aliens are depending on you!!!!

Overpopulation and Rick Perry
Some day, when it is too late, the moonbats on the left will discover that global warming is more closely tied to overpopulation and energy usage than it is to carbon emissions.

But while they are trying to figure this out, they will add 30 to 40 million new Americans, all requiring food, shelter and clothing, all of which requires massive amounts of energy to sustain ad infinitum.

As far as Rick Perry goes, he won't win another term. He is very unpopular down here as a flunky for stealing our highways and giving them to big business as well as giving lip service to immigration.


Yes Mike
Any other fantasies you have...

You can't deport 20 million people, nor are 20 million people going to simply pack up and leave. You also can't stop legal immigration for a year--because the Congress will never pass such a thing because unlike you they understand that legal immigration helps the US. I now return you to your fantasy world.

And an American Mom, the NAU is a total fantasy dreamed up by people who hear black helicopters at night, but thanks for playing.

And Lodestar:

Any my statement is neither erroneous or artful dodging. Yes there are more immigrants, and guess what there are more people in general too? So? The per capita is the key measurement, not the raw numbers.

If any statement can be seen as erroneous it is this one "...but even immigrants who have lived in the United States for 14 or 15 years still have dramatically higher rates of poverty, lack of health insurance, and welfare use than natives."

Because the fools at CIS lump legal and illegal. Most legal immigrants are not poor, they are solid middle class if not rich. The poor immigrants are mostly those that come to the US illegally. Legal immigrants must show that they have either the resources or have a sponsor with the resources to insure that the immigrant will not become a public charge. If you sponsor an immigrant and they do become a public charge, the US government will come after you for your assets to cover the cost of the public assistance and this obligation is for life or until the immigrant becomes a US citizen.

If you as an immigrant don't have the assets or a sponsor, you aren't granted an immigration visa. So Lodestar, ever been through an immigrant visa application process?

Obviously illegals aren't subject to an examination of their assets or need a sponsor, but the debate over illegals and legal immigration are different issues.

However, in fact, natives use welfare at higher levels than immigrants--legal or illegal.






Illegals
There are closer to 40 million illegals in this country - how many more in a few years with anchor babies, chain migration allowed and encouraged by our corrupt politicians who pander to big business, corporations for cheap labor and fraudulent voters? The League of Women voters is a great proponent of illegals along with the Farm Bureau. Along with the 349 billion dollars of your money last year, over 9 million citizens lost their jobs to illegal labor. The only way this will stop is to take a stand as a citizen - we need to vote out all the bums in Congress and start over - and implement term limits - these career politicians are selling us down the river!

Agaki
Yes, they will leave. If they can't get jobs, or free healthcare, or a free education... and if, when they are stopped for traffic fines, members of their family are shipped back to Mexico, they will eventually wash their hands of the grand idea of taking back the southwest through large families.

You are an idiot to think otherwise. But there are enough of you on the left spouting that lie that we may never find out.

Who would Jesus Deport?
I was looking at the side of this report at the woman wearing a t-shirt with this saying. The thing I know that Jesus would do is obey the laws of the land unless they led one against the laws of God. It is not people coming into this country LEGALLY, that I am against, is those that sneak in ILLEGALLY. Those are the ones that do not pay taxes of any kind because they are paid under the table as far as I know. Isn't that how they keep from being found out that they are here illegally?
If they came in legally and helped pay their fair share of taxes, then I would have no problem with any that come in from another country. Jesus would tell this woman, you should have come in legally, then you wouldn't have to fear being deported.
If we are to obey the laws of the land, then it should be for everyone, and it would eliminate this problem.

point/counterpoint
re:
"However, in fact, natives use welfare at higher levels than immigrants--legal or illegal."

Response per Center For Immigration Studies:

* The proportion of (all) immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 29 percent, compared to 18 percent for native households.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2 0071129/NATION/111290083/1001
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrat ionissuecenters7fd8
http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/services.html

Since ILLEGALS are not supposed to avail themselves of federal welfare programs, because it is against the law (like much of what they do here), the above data are all the more startling. Furthermore, there is an unquestionable correlation between low education and poverty rates and ILLEGAL aliens AND to eventual net use of government services. (See Heritage Foundation study results below)

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR14es.cfm
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigrati on_american_infrastructure.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265 &q=immigration

akagi
you are an apologist for all that is wrong. You would simply argue for the sake of arguing. you do not CARE about anything.
Are you even a citizen. Yea, you are damn right that is a xenophobic question.

Okay
Illegals are illegal--they aren't allowed to bring anyone in. Yes, their children will be US citizens, who can sponsor them for an immigrant visa in 18 years.

The chain migration is also pretty much a farce. You as a US citizen can sponsor your spouse, your minor children, your parents (if you are 18+) and your brothers and sisters--that's it.

The current wait time for siblings is more than a decade--10 years, 7 months--they are now processing applications they were submitted on August 8, 1997. For Mexico, they are processing applications that were submitted December 15, 1994 and for those from the Philippines it goes back to 1986--22 years. Unmarried sons and daughters? 6 years. Family-based immigration benefits to pernament residents only covers spouses and unmarried children and the current wait time for those are 5 years for spouses and minor children and 9 years for unmarried sons and daughters.

To become a citizen, for a person not married to a US citizen it takes at least 5 years, if married to a US citizen, 3 years.

Sure you can have chain migration--if you are willing to wait forever and let's not talk about the application fees and perhaps immigration lawyer fees.

Akagi
IF as you stated in your pos ILLEGAL ALIENS are solid middle class, it is because the AMERICAN middle class GAVE IT TO THEM.

Akagi
"However, in fact, natives use welfare at higher levels than immigrants--legal or illegal." I don't remember your posting a source for that, but let's assume it's true. So what? ANY welfare benefits paid to illegals is money taken fraudulently and hurts not only the taxpayers funding the program but also the poor people living on the program. You're so full of sympathy for poor Mexicans just trying to feed their children, have you none left for poor Americans just trying to feed their children?

BTW: the next time you hear that garbage about "we didn't cross the border: the border crossed us!" just laugh and point out that if California still belonged to Mexico then the illegals would be crossing into Oregon.

Oh and Jacy
Of course, Farm Bureau and big business supports illegals, are you suprised by this? And why would term limits help? Those new people in Congress need to fundraise too, and who do you think gives to their campaigns?

"...over 9 million citizens lost their jobs to illegal labor" I'd love to see a source on this that did not include CIS.Org, FAIRUSA.org or NumbersUSA.org--all of which have notoriously flawed studies.

"If they can't get jobs, or free healthcare, or a free education... and if, when they are stopped for traffic fines, members of their family are shipped back to Mexico, they will eventually wash their hands of the grand idea of taking back the southwest through large families."

Care to explain without going to a national ID card, how an employer is to know who is legal and who is not? The fear of DOJ coming down if they make a mistake by not hiring someone that is legal but they thought was not? How many workplace investigations were done last year nationwide..what was it 50?

Sorry to break it to you, few come here just for the healthcare or education, but for the jobs which aren't going away. And since they have due process rights, deportation of people stopped for traffic violations would be a long process..where do you plan to house them, feed them, how much will the legal costs be? The housing costs, the costs of the guards, etc.

Soory, Nick, not going to happen.

Akagi
"I also never said anyone had a right to immigrate to the US,.."

No, but your logic continually operates from this premise. You are a pro immigrant, legal or illegal, bigot! It's a contradiction that you cannot reconcile. Such as, what happens to all those who are only "citizens" by reason of being born on US if they are eighteen years old and the US resumes the draft? Can they then refute their citizenship by claiming the citizenship of their non-citizen parents? Can they then remain in the US by claiming a "continuous presence"? You have some flaws in your logic to work out.

BTW, Akagi, I witnessed a large number of young men, who were neither white or black, trying to escape the draft in just this manner and on those grounds.

akagi
Why do you IGNORE the fact that HARM is being inflicted on this country caused by the overuse of this country's benifits. WHATEVER good ILLEGAL aliens provide to this country is eaten up by the excess use of taxpayer benifits. Have you offered to pay extra on your income tax to help these poor souls. (Assuming you pay taxes)
Assuming you are even a citizen or are even located in this country.

Grumpy
It depends.

The children of illegals born in the US are eligible for welfare just as you or I would be, so foodstamps, public housing, etc would be legal in that case. Legal Immigrants that have worked 10 years in the US are also eligible.

Some states probably also allow for some welfare to illegals, but unsure on this point.

But yes, any aid money spent on anyone who is not eligible is bad and hurts those who are. I don't disagree.

It is not that I have sympathy for them, it is I understand them. Not that I support them, but who I blame are the corrupt Mexican government, the US government, big business that hire them and lazy and cheap Americans who hire them because they are too lazy to cut their own grass or take care of their own children or wash their own clothes or too cheap to hire an American to do it--that is who I blame. For someone just trying to feed their family, I blame them the least.

Oh how did NAFTA destroy rural Mexico--easy answer midwestern American corn farmers. Before NAFTA Mexico limited US corn exports which supported the prices of corn grown by peasants in rural Mexico, NAFTA ended that and much of the immigration issue can be linked to this event.

Oh UncleB:

How is my citizenship Germane to anything? And the charge that I don't care about anything is totally false and finally I argue against echo chamber incestious group think. I don't disagree to just disagree. If you said Ma Ying Jeou is a carpetbagger who is not to be trusted, I'd agree with that 100%.








The draft
First, I doubt there will ever again be a draft. Conscripts make awful soldiers. But anyone here is free to renounce their citizenship. I suppose you might have to do it before you are drafted, but in any event, even if you were drafted before, find an airplane, fly back to the country you have dual citizenship in and stay there--they country you are in isn't going to send you back and you can go to the local embassy or consulate and try to renounce your citizenship--if that don't accept it, their problem.

If they are in the US they are subject to the laws of the US and if they citizens of the US that means subject to the draft, claiming to be not a US citizen won't help--and the US doesn't recognize dual nationality--meaning if I have citizenship in another country and the US and I run afoul of US laws or the US wants to draft me, I can't use my other country's citizenship as a way to escape. I have to get the hell out of the US and back "home."



But you won't be able to return to the US in any event.


incestious group think?????
Just what the he!! do you think majority rule means? This is how we elect our so called government. Elected by the majority of citizens or the electorial college. THE MAJORITY.
With regard to your citizenship, if you are not a citizen of this country ( AMERICA) then you have no standing in this discussion/arguement. And I still say that you care about NOTHING but your own ignorant arguements.

UncleB
"WHATEVER good ILLEGAL aliens provide to this country is eaten up by the excess use of taxpayer benifits. Have you offered to pay extra on your income tax to help these poor souls. (Assuming you pay taxes)
Assuming you are even a citizen or are even located in this country."

Studies differ on this actually. Some show a economic loss by illegal immigration and others show a net gain--guess it depends who you want to believe, my belief--the claim one way or the other is in dispute and thus the answer is no one really knows.

Again, my citizenship isn't Germane nor really is where I live.


Akagi
If you are a citizen of this country, you seem ashamed to admit it. If you ARE you should be PROUD and tell it to the world. Since you seem loath to tell us your citizenship or location, I would suggest that you are interfering with my country. Leave us the he!! alone. Your soulless
coldblodded analytical crud is not wanted here. If you are a citizen, I would label you a traitor.

You are quite wrong
"And I still say that you care about NOTHING but your own ignorant arguements."

You are quite wrong. Actually in the US you don't have majority rule and in TH minority opinions are allowed--thankfully this isn't FreeRepublic.com or DemocracticUnderground who don't like hearing divergent views.

Ever hear of a concept known as tyranny of the majority? Why the American system was set up the way it was--to defend political minorities. The majority in 1954 supported the American form of Apartied--the SCOTUS disagreed. The majority voted against George Bush in 2000, he still became president, same goes for Bill Clinton (both times). If you tally up all the votes, I bet McCain still doesn't have a majority of all votes cast, but he is the GOP nominee.

Again, I care about a number of things, but I care about my arguments as well, if not why would I make them--does that mean you don't care about yours? As for being ignorant, well I consider the source--you know "dui niu tan qin."




As I suspected
You are not a citizen of this country. Your opinions carry no weight in MY country. Worthless little wannabe.

UncleB
Why should I be proud to be an American? Or you for that matter.

Okay, IF I came to the US as an immigrant, tough to even go through the visa process, then arrived, made a life in the US, learned the language, passed the test (which will now be even harder), THEN yes you can be proud to be an American, but just because you happened to be born there? What did you do? Nothing. Nothing to be proud about that. You shouldn't be proud of fate.

as for my treason, if you would read the US Constitution (Article 3, Sec.3) defines it as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Unsure how these terms apply to me in regards to me comitting treason against the US.

Oh standing is for a court of law, I have as much standing here as you--even if I was posting from say Asahikawa and if I were it'd be cool and late right now.



Pretty big assumption
"You are not a citizen of this country."

Really? Care to share how you came to that conclusion?

Illgal Immigration
A country that cannot control it's borders cannot long survive. Witness Iraq. Until the US and/or Iraqi Government controls it's borders the war will continue. Same same Afghanistan. Until the US controls it's borders the movement of non-citizens (illigals) into the country will continue. One can only conclude that the US Government refuses to do it's job because those in Washington believe there will be a way someday to give these non-citizens the right to vote in our elections. The two political parties see votes and thus the failure of the US Government to enforce the laws of our country. Until we elect officals who will act in our national interest this debate will go on.

Drew
Watch out!!! The resident alien Akagi will jump on your post.

Akagi
You only have to watch Congress on TV to see them commit treason in front of more than two persons who can testify to their treason. Everything many of them do and say is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

No
Because UncleB, I actually agree with his post mostly. But the reason it not just votes--big business supports illegal immigration and they support both parties with campaign cash and that is the primary reason. Just look at this from Colorado.

http://www.gazette.com/articles/workers_35510___article.htm l/bruce_rep.html




What enemy
"Everything many of them do and say is giving aid and comfort to the enemy."

What enemy is that exactly?

Ron
Don't bother responding to Akagi. He is not even an American citizen. His comments/opinions do not matter to Americans.

Yes Ron
Next UncleB will do other parlor tricks, not only can he tell a person's citizenship status, he can guess your weight and height too--he once worked in a circus. God UncleB, you should get a job with ICE.

So UncleB, care to explain how you came to the conclusion that I am not a US citizen--I am waiting with baited breath.

Earth Day ideas
Check out my latest blog for some ideas on how you can celebrate Earth Day as a red-blooded American who loves eating meat and who thinks a great way to save the environment would be by feeding an eco-freak to the alligators.

Gators gotta eat!

You can click on my name or use the following link:

http://fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com

Oh I missed this one
UncleB:

Can you read and understand the English language? I said this "Most legal immigrants are not poor, they are solid middle class if not rich." Do you see the key word there--LEGAL.

You mindlessly posted this "IF as you stated in your pos ILLEGAL ALIENS are solid middle class, it is because the AMERICAN middle class GAVE IT TO THEM."

I clearly stated in the same post this "The poor immigrants are mostly those that come to the US illegally."

Are you in the US legally, are you a speaker of a language other than English, because you seem to lack reading comprehension in that language? Should we post to you in a language you can understand?

Akagi
Dude, you've posted here about 50 times since yesterday morning. I would highly recommend taking in a movie or possibly getting a part-time job. Those find-a-word puzzles could be good, too. You seriously need another hobby.

Akagi
It would appear that you are the one who cannot the writing on the wall. Get the F outta here. Alien non citizens are not wanted here.

SO what else is new?
This whole situation is outrageous. Sure be a good citizen and follow all the rules and what do you get? Screwed! The left wants to destroy the economy of this country so it can once again trumpit its socialist/ communist nonsense. They insist on killing the golden goose. Why not totally open the borders and while you are at it the bank vaults. Those that understand this dont need to be told. Those that dont understand this already will never understand it. They want to feel good at your expense. Now even the Pope is on the band wagon. Wonder how many illegal immigrants he allows into the Vatican.

So what else is new continued
Besides whats a 1/3 trillion dollars? We let in another 20-30 million it might add up to real money.
Our leadership (both houses and the president) dont want to fix this. Its all about big business and bringing in more entry level people to maintain the Social Security (laugh) shell game. God help us congress wont!

Alisa
I count only 30 times...wait make that 31...far less than 50 though and don't you have something better to do like take in a movie, get a hobby, etc than monitor how many times I post?

And UncleB:

There is your English again. Aren't you missing a verb there--like read or see (e.g. You are the one that cannot see the writing on the wall)?

And you have still not put forth any evidence that I am not a US citizen, now have you? Care to post how you come to that conclusion?




speaking of chain migration...
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrat ionissuecenters3e2a

excerpt:
Chain migration happens because present U.S. immigration policy is based on the principle of broadly defined family reunification; immigrants are able to sponsor their relatives back home to be admitted as immigrants here. In other words, most (legal) immigrants are admitted simply because they have a relative here who sponsors them, not because of what they might be able to contribute to our society.

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/overall.html

excerpt:
Chain migration is the primary mechanism that has caused legal immigration in this country to quadruple from about 250,000 per year in the 1950s and 1960s to more than one million a year since 1990.Chain migration is about family reunification beyond the nuclear family. Until the late 1950s, America's immigration tradition of family unity had only included spouses and minor children. But since then, immigrants can also send for their siblings, parents and adult children. These non-nuclear family members actually get precedence over an immigrant’s nuclear family.

This ill-conceived system also creates incentives for illegal immigration because adult relatives of legal residents are known to overstay their visas (becoming illegal aliens) in hopes of becoming legal immigrants. Moreover, since hundreds of millions of people in the world have a relative in the U.S., the migration chain can eventually reach them all.

Untrue
"These non-nuclear family members actually get precedence over an immigrant’s nuclear family."

Siblings of US citizens are 4th priority--the lowest priority class. The current wait time for most of the world is 10 years, for Mexico 14 years, and the Philippines 22 years. Priority 3 is the married sons and daughters of US citizens, nuclear family members of permanent residents are only a lower priority to the unmarried sons and daughters of a US citizen.

Why don't you look at the visa bulletin sometime instead of relying on nonsense from FAIR.




More nonsense and outright stupidity
"This ill-conceived system also creates incentives for illegal immigration because adult relatives of legal residents are known to overstay their visas (becoming illegal aliens) in hopes of becoming legal immigrants. Moreover, since hundreds of millions of people in the world have a relative in the U.S., the migration chain can eventually reach them all."

No, adult relatives who are eligible for a immigration visa don't overstay in general because if you do, you will be barred from getting an immigrant visa and in most cases visitor visas won't even be issued to a person waiting for an immigrant visa--so a sister waiting for an immigrant visa can't even take her kids to DisneyWorld.

And I suppose the chain can reach them all, but when you have to wait a decade or decades to get a visa and the cost involved, the numbers except in the most rare of cases is quite small. I speak from personal experience here.

Comments
//Akagi writes: Tuesday, April, 22, 2008 11:57 AM

You can't deport 20 million people, nor are 20 million people going to simply pack up and leave.//

I'm completely unsure as to why anyone would want to stop legal immigration, but I guarantee you that I could deport 20 million illegal aliens within a year without shedding a tear. I can't even begin to describe the list of criminal activities and worse that are committed against legal citizens and immigrants in southern California. The other day there was an article about how illegal aliens get free transplant organs that shift out availability for American citizens and legal immigrants. I just have little sympathy left for lawbreakers that are supported over citizens. Ref: http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-get-f ree-organ-transplants

//If you as an immigrant don't have the assets or a sponsor, you aren't granted an immigration visa. So Lodestar, ever been through an immigrant visa application process?//

We seem to agree on the general fact that America receives motivated legal immigrants from all around the world that generally are helpful to society. I have helped friends from Korea, Columbia, and India apply for immigration visas. It is a crappy, poorly orgranized processed made to further another branch of government bureaucratic law

//Obviously illegals aren't subject to an examination of their assets or need a sponsor, but the debate over illegals and legal immigration are different issues.

However, in fact, natives use welfare at higher levels than immigrants--legal or illegal.//

If the debate over legal and illegal are different issues why do you attempt to continue to obfuscate the issue? Illegal aliens using a dime of taxpayer monies is far too much.

It's really simple...
Should a nation have immigration laws?

If yes, does the government have an obligation to enforce those laws?

If yes, and the government refuses to fulfill its obligations, the contract between the state and its citizens has been broken. Lawlessness ensues. Just watch the 10 o'clock news to see the results.

What's next? Can't say for sure. I believe we will disolve into separate, ethnic states like the former Yugoslavia did. A worthless dollar may be the catalyst. The only loyalty the fed enjoys is the loyalty it buys. The federal government certainly doesn't seem to be respected by many.

Nick in Austin
"We can either accept the truism NOW that a nation cannot grow forever, or we can wait until it is too late to save this nation's future. A vote for any DEM is a vote to destroy your grandchildren's future."

***

First of all, we are as close as anyone can be
to being able to grow forever. Not only are
we a rich nation in natural resources and
variety, but in population density we are way
at the bottom end of things. For density in
urban areas, we are at the bottom. UK is 3 1/2 times more dense, the rest of Europe is more than 2 1/2 times more dense and Africa, India,
Asia and South America are from 4 times to 13
times more dense. In total land density, the
U.S. is again on the low end with approx. 84
people per sq mile while much of Europe is in
the 300 to 400 people per sq mile. Greenland is
the lowest with less than one and Macao is the
highest with 73,000!

As for asking my grandchildren, they said they
don't want to pay for our war, so bring on the
immigrants.

What a grasp on things
"Rubenstein shows how foolish is this prediction because today's low-wage workers will surely become tomorrow's expensive retirees."

***

Ms. Schlafley, always a tower of brain power,
(if we pass the equal rights amendment, men and
women will have to share public bathrooms. Remember that great argument),gives the above
excuse as to why continued immigration will not
help us with Social Security.

Pray tell, why should we assume that if they
have the gumption to leave home and resettle in
a new country, that they will then retreat into
lethargy and not advance at all.

And why do low wage workers become expensive
retirees? - But that is a topic for another day.

Interesting
Somehow I think the ratio of people to natural resources has something to do with how wealthy you are as a nation. That is another reason for not trying to double our population over the next forty years.

European cities are used to high concentrations of people. Fewer of them have cars and because of their proximity they are much less vulnerable to pricy gasoline. It won't work that way in America. By the time the Dems are thru artificially boosting the population of the US during a time of skyrocketing food and energy costs, the Arabs will own this nation. We will see our standard of living degrade substantially because "it's the right thing to do."

However, I'm glad your kids have a say. They are obviously brilliant. SHowing Iran, Iraq and Syria that harboring and supporting terrorists is a risky proposition was a stupid thing for the US to do. It probably could have been done more efficiently. On the other hand, I am sure they would be better off in a world where terror supporting countries own nuclear weapons. After all, they'll stop producing them after they have a thousand or two... or maybe five.

As the Dems and their shills like Robert Wilson will tell you, Iraq wasn't after yellow cake. Oh, wait, Wilson has said that he regretted making that statement.

Ever heard of water shortages? I suppose they could have no effect on food production.

There is a reason for keeping immigration to reasonable levels, and there is a reason that you don't suddenly add thirty million new citizens virtually overnight. Global warming is more closely tied to population than it is to carbon.

Fivo
"I'm completely unsure as to why anyone would want to stop legal immigration, but I guarantee you that I could deport 20 million illegal aliens within a year without shedding a tear."

Against legal immigration? Oh people like Lodestar, FAIR, CIS, PS among others. I wouldn't care if 20 million illegals were deported either, but I also understand that to expect it is unrealistic, in fact unobtainable. The US doesn't have the political will to do things to solve the illegal issue--e.g. biometric national ID cards and too many powerful forces who really call the shots in the US, not the political leaders--e.g. multinationals and their lobbists--like illegal labor.

"If the debate over legal and illegal are different issues why do you attempt to continue to obfuscate the issue?"

Because PS, Lodestar, CIS, FAIR, et al lump both together. If this article had been simply directed at illegal aliens, I would have less issue with it.

"Illegal aliens using a dime of taxpayer monies is far too much."

In general I agree with this, but as for schools and medical care, would you rather have them in school or on the streets at 3 p.m. when you are at work--at least if they are in school they aren't breaking into houses and would you want someone with an illness such as TB untreated or let someone simply die on the streets? Not so simple an issue.



US population
viruddh:

True, Asia is much more dense and there are plenty of empty places out there in the US. But most immigrants aren't going to move to rural Nebraska and many Americans would not like to live in conditions you find in say Taipei or Shanghai.

They typical 1/4 acre lot and 75 feet from your next door neighbor doesn't exist much in places like Taiwan, to get such you either have to be very rich or live way out in the boonies like rural Tainan County someplace. Most Americans would find the conditions of Taipei or Kaohsiung or Tokyo unacceptable.

And Nick:

I have heard of water shortages, but China's water issues which has 4 times the US population is due more to mismanagement of the resource than too many people using it. Taiwan is the size of Maryland, but has the population larger than Texas. Not blessed with too many sources of fresh water, but not too many water shortages and the farmers still manage to grow rice and the like. Look in the US, much of the water issues have to do with mismanagement more so than the number of users--if everyone waters acres and acres of turf grass instead of having xeriscape, then yes water can become an issue, but blame that on the misuse of the resource, not the size of the population.

why little upward mobility?
re:
"Pray tell, why should we assume that if they ILLEGAL aliens) have the gumption to leave home and resettle in a new country, that they will then retreat into lethargy and not advance at all."

Because most ILLEGAL aliens come here poor and undereducated, which presages a cycle of the same. Such people have FAR greater propensities to pandemic social pathologies and government dependence. Your side likes to point to stories of Andrew Carnegie coming here poor 150 years ago and makng VERY good on grit and guile. Many new Americans have over time.

But the socio-economy of today's America is an advanced service economy. It can benefit on balance ONLY from educated, skilled immigrants, versus the typical ILLEGAL who arrives fairly poor and often with only a 6th grade education. These are daunting obstacles for the native born-- if you add in a willful cultural disparateness and a foreign language, it becomes nearly impossible to be upwardly mobile in a material manner.

Some cite the progress of third generation Hispanics-- this is misleading and racist (to lump them together). Grandpa came when it was easier to move upward, embraced the culture, learned English, and there was no Great Society welfare state to lean on. The PC enablers who push multiculturalism and bilingualism are making it HARDER for "the new slaves" to advance.

reply to: Europhobe Akagi
re:
"Against legal immigration? Oh people like Lodestar, FAIR, CIS, PS among others."

I gotta' go teach econ. and business to college students, but just wanted to note that Akagi likes to challenge sources and their data that I proffer here-- that's attacking the messenger when you don't like the message. Would you prefer the renowned Heritage Foundation? How about Pew Hispanic Center? Even the liberal Cato Institute? How 'bout the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Quite frankly, the data can only be interpreted with so much latitude.

And where are YOUR authoritative sources?! Like most PC types, you posit what you FEEL or WISH to be so. Furthermore, Middle America KNOWS what ILLEGALS plague us with. This is why half of LEGAL Hispanics in Az. voted for 4 TOUGH new sanctions against ILLEGALS in 2006, which are now causing many ILLEGAL aliens to vamanos from Az.
Buenas dias, amigo!

Akagi
Akagi is not a US citizen!!! Pay the little turd no attention with regard to immigration in America.

Lodestar
As I pointed out, my complaint was with lumping legal immigration with illegal immigration. And in one of your posts above you claimed that non-nuclear family members of US citizens get preference over nuclear family members of permanent residents and if you would have bothered to look at the visa bulletin you would have seen that is untrue.

I have never claimed that illegal immigration is not a problem, have I?

Heritage has been known to not publish studies when the studies turn out to contradict the position that they are pushing, so you have to take what they put out with a dubious eye, but their studies aren't usually blown apart like those that come out of CIS and FAIR, so in that light, Heritage is more trustworhty than either of these. CATO isn't liberal, it is libertarian.


Language
"These are daunting obstacles for the native born-- if you add in a willful cultural disparateness and a foreign language, it becomes nearly impossible to be upwardly mobile in a material manner."

Actually, second generation Hispanics are basically fluent in English as is the case of other immigrant groups now and other groups in the "golden age" anti-immigrant forces like to cite.

Oh and on a side note, I am hardly PC or liberal.

And UncleB:

Repeating a charge over and over again doesn't make it true. I know you probably graduated from the Joseph Goebbels School of Communications, but saying a lie often enough here will not make it the truth. Again for the third or fourth time, like to backup your claim on my citizenship status?

Akagi
You told me so...foreigner.

I did?
Please cite the post where I have ever stated my ciitzenship status?


legal working visa'a
For decades the farmer has been hiring legal workers, in the orchards, sugar beet field and other seasonal crops. They hire the legal farm worker through the local crop association. The working conditions and pay per hour are dictated.

How about the people who live along the boarder they have clothes, food, livestock, stolen by the illegal trespassers. What about their rights to sleep quietly at night. They have to have guard dogs.

The illegals leave a trail of trash, drugs, they have no respect for others private property.

Yes it is the corrupt Mexican government that is greatly at fault for not having the education, and helps for the people to be able to support themselves.

I am tired of not being able to support my family because I am being taxed for everything to cover the illegals expense. You can bet every medical bill they do not pay, I get a percentage of their cost added to my bill. This so the doctor's and hospital can stay open.

Lodestar
Statue of Liberty: Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor, Your huddled masses yearning to be free."

Hear about the riot?
"LANCASTER, Calif. - Hundreds of illegal immigrants awaiting deportation rioted at a county-run detention center."

It started as a fight between rival gangs. G-A-N-G-S. These are the folks who come in along with the ones who just want to "feed their kids."

How many have been murdered by illegal aliens and what do you tell their families? "Sorry that your kid is dead, but that's the price we pay to allow citizens of other countries to come here and feed their kids?"

Congress Makes the Laws: IT CAN CHANGE
Congress can change immigration because it is free under:

Article I, Section 1, vesting all legislative powers in the Congress, and

Article III, Section 2, giving Congress the power to set the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court and the inferior federal courts in all cases except those affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsels, and those in which a State shall be a Party,

to change any Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution and the laws and make its change stick simply by removing federal court jurisdiction over the change. Congress, not the federal courts and not the executive, is the only lawmaker under our Constitution.

While the Supreme Court is often the most prominent mischief maker, as in the 1857 Dred Scott decision making slavery legal in all states, depriving the black man of the right to vote in states where he previously had it, and declaring him a mere chattel, a vote that cost us over half a million dead; and the blacks to the back of the bus decision of Plessy v. Ferguson in 1894, it was the Southern states and the economic and racist goals that promoted these patently unjust decisions; and their representation in the Senate, where the need for a 60% majority to shut off debate, prevented overturning the results.

The Court is all too often the tool of the politicians and those who buy their votes. A good fix for this obscured bribery might be to allow only funding of lobbyists and campaign contributions by individuals who are identified immediately on the internet as to name and address of the giver and the date and amount. The only vote that should be allowed is by individuals. Let the shareholders and board members vote individually and with their personal money, not with the other people’s money of their organizations.

Costs of Immigration
So, we have what seems to be "the facts" about government costs due to low-wage immigrants. This data is of course required for any meaningful discussion of U.S. policy. However, no information was given about the financial benefits, such as immigrants' contributions to Social Security and Medicare, some of which will never be claimed, contributions to property taxes (even by poor tenants, via rents paid), sales taxes paid, decreases in costs of thousands of items otherwise not afforded by many, and the fact many of the uses by the immigrants, albeit at the cost of government, produce jobs, e.g. the medical personnel, school teachers, etc. who would not otherwise be required and would add to unemployment. I lived in CA long enough to learn one thing most folks don't believe, but it's true, to wit: there are some jobs out there, e.g. picking strawberries, which simply would not be done without the low-wage immigrants from the south. So what we need is a recalculation giving effect to the positive financial influences of immigration. To the extent that could be done, we'd be better able to judge what to do next. gene emmons, Longmont, CO

Gene
It would be good to have a full and accurate assessment of the financial impact both plus and minus. Absolutely, illegals do pay sales taxes for whatever that's worth. Some of your other "pluses" are less than persuasive, though.

Contributions to property taxes, for example, is meaningless unless you assume the apartments would sit empty if not for illegals. Unemployed medical personnel and school teachers if the demand was reduced? Ha! Hospitals are closing over the cost of treating illegals, in case you hadn't heard, and teachers are complaining that class sizes are too large.

As for the jobs that would not be done, how old are you? When I was in high school it was my friends and I who picked berries and fruits as summer jobs, not to mention cutting grass and delivering newspapers. Not many jobs for teens these days, since they're all filled by illegals.

You know what, Gene? If we somehow got rid of the illegal aliens and costs did go up I wouldn't complain. Expensive tomatoes seems a small price to pay for secure borders, reduced gang activity and drug smuggling, less overcrowding in schools and hospitals...

Would you like to answer the question I posed above? "How many have been murdered by illegal aliens and what do you tell their families?"

What if the immigrants were grateful...
...for the opportunities they gained like they used to be? Read this article, please. Pay attention to the part about children being named with local names and learning language that is much harder than English:

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/103466

an interesting web site...
... about numbers of ILLEGAL aliens and some suggested costs to America:

http://immigrationcounters.com/

Please see my various posts below on what YOU can do to get engaged to save your country from the ILLEGAL invasion, starting here:

lodestar writes: Monday, April, 21, 2008 8:20 PM
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