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Monday, December 17, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Republicans Should Answer Questions About China, Too
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Why are questions about China asked only in the Democratic presidential debates? We want to know what Republican candidates plan to do about China sending us poisoned foods and toys.

All presidential candidates should be asked what they plan to do about the fact that free trade with China means acquiescing in gross discrimination against U.S. products and jobs. The Chinese avoid a level trading field by artificially undervaluing their currency up to 40 percent, subsidizing their products, and imposing import duties against U.S. products that are 10 times higher than tariffs on Chinese products sold in the United States.

U.S. free-trade negotiators routinely accept trade agreements that give other countries the right to charge higher tariffs than the United States charge for similar products. For example, the Chinese Chery car will face a 2.5 percent tariff when sold in the U.S., but U.S. automobiles entering China will be taxed at 25 percent.

Foreign countries get by with this discrimination by calling it a value-added tax, or VAT, instead of a tariff, but it amounts to a high barrier against free trade. The result is that millions of U.S. jobs have moved overseas.

All presidential candidates ought to be asked what they plan to do about China's organized theft of U.S. intellectual property and counterfeiting of American products. China is the world's top producer of illegal copies of music, movies, software, designer clothes and medicines.

All candidates should be asked what they plan to do about China putting its billion dollars of profits from U.S. trade into military weaponry to threaten, not only Taiwan, but the United States, especially U.S. communication satellites.

The toy advertised by Wal-Mart as the top toy of the season had to be recalled after it was discovered that children in Texas, Delaware, New Hampshire, Illinois and Utah fell sick and were hospitalized because of swallowing the toy's bead-like parts. After 4.2 million were recalled, China finally admitted that the beads in Aqua Dots contained a substance that can turn into the "date-rape" drug after children swallow them.

That drug, gamma-hydroxy butyrate, causes breathing problems, loss of consciousness, seizures, drowsiness, coma and death. Aqua Dots were supposed to have been coated with a nontoxic chemical, but that chemical costs three or four times the price of the poisonous compound, so the Chinese manufacturer couldn't resist using the cheaper product.

According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission's Web site, 26 million toys and other products made in China have been recalled by U.S. companies since August. Even the Boy Scouts of America had to recall 1 million Chinese-made plastic badges that contained unsafe amounts of lead.

Chinese products for children found to contain unacceptable levels of lead include vinyl baby bibs, Thomas the Tank Engine sets, Baby Einstein Discover & Play Color Blocks, Pirates of the Caribbean medallion squeeze lights, Totally Me! Funky Room Decor Sets, Hannah Montana handbags, and Barbie doll accessories.

Australia recalled hundreds of blankets imported from China in October because they contained formaldehyde up to 10 times the level permissible under international standards. The World Heath Organization has classified formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen.

Chinese seafood is potentially more dangerous. About 80 percent of seafood consumed by Americans is imported, and the Food and Drug Administration inspects and tests only 1 percent.

Lab tests show that China uses antibiotics to treat fish raised in filthy waters where bacteria, viruses and parasites breed. Lab testers say that when seafood is rejected for an illegal chemical, the Chinese simply switch to another harmful chemical.

Often found in imported fish is a fungicide called malachite green, which is illegal to use in food in the United States because studies show it can cause cancer and birth defects.

Alabama has its own tests and rejects 50 percent to 60 percent of all fish imports. Alabama Commissioner of Agriculture Ron Sparks personally visited Asia to witness seafood farmed in sewage.

Chinese products are so cheap because workers in Guangdong, where most Chinese toys are made, are primarily 17- to 25-year-old females who average 16-hour workdays, six to seven days a week, and earn about $50 per month. They live in unhealthy, overcrowded dormitories, where a bed is their only possession.

With the 2008 Olympic games coming soon, China is stepping up its censorship under the official slogan "constructing a harmonious society." Visitors who click on China's largest Internet site, called Sina.com, are greeted by two cute cartoon police figures, one male and one female, who pop up onscreen every 30 minutes.

These images link to the Communist Party Internet police in order to report any information the government might deem illegal. It's important for Americans to realize that China is still a very communist and anti-American country.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Sina.com
While based in Shanghai, Sina.com serves Chinese readers in the US, HK, Taiwan and China. And I have yet to find the two policemen on that site.

Anti-American? Not really, but not pro-American either. I guess it depends how you define it. China isn't an ally of the US if that is what you mean. Communist--not really--it is a one-party, authoritarian state not unlike Taiwan in the 1960s.

As for Chinese products, China is still in many ways a developing country and with little consumer protection, a high degree of corruption, etc. If you don't examine what you are buying, what do you expect?

China still is engaged in violation of IP rights, but not to the degree they were just a few years ago. They do play games with the Yuan and are not totally fair in regards to US imports. But what would you rather have, a China that is at least starting to buy into the international system and would be a more rational actor or a rising power that decides to overturn the system. The last time a rising Asian power did that, you had the Pacific War and this time, the Asian power has nukes of its own.




China and America
Last week, it was reported that U.S. officials were discussing our trade deficit with China with the Chinese government.

With not much success.

The Chinese are rational people; they can tell when negotiators are "going through the motions."

America simply can't sustain yearly and growing $230 billion trade deficits ad infinitum with China without suffering consequences catastrophic to America's long term interests:

Economic
Military
Geo-political

Why the hang dog look on American negotiators' faces?

Because nobody gets anything in a tough negotiation by saying, "pretty please."

Duncan Hunter is singular in raising the "China" issue in the presidential campaign, but has received little backing from the financiers of the Republican Party.

Why?

Because these same financiers are up to their neck in selling out America to China. These financiers and arbitrageurs have moved beyond America and are citizens of the world.

America is a cow to milked -- dry -- if nobody stops these finciers and arbitrageurs, who now see themselves as international, rather than American.

This relatively small group do benefit from the present status quo, even if long term, America and the vast majority of her citizens lose out.

And don't think Democrats get off the hook. Not a single Democrat has made this a defining issue.

America can't prosper long term, being just a consuming nation.

Who will fight for America's long term interests?

I guess it's up to "We the People."

The politicians have already been bought and paid for.

Ah, China...
Most of the problems that we have with imported Chinese products stem from the fact that China has a relatively weak central government and exercises poor oversight with regards to product safety. If some factory owner does something too egregious, they tend to take out the malefactor and shoot him.

We've been buying cheap products from overseas for years and years. A lot of what we bought was crap, but it was affordable crap.

If you've any doubt, I invite you to sing along...

God Rest Ye Poor Small Businessmen
(sung to the tune of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen)

God rest ye poor small businessmen;
Who've managed to survive;
Be glad in this e-con-o-my
That you are still alive;
Give shouts of praise at Christmas time
When folks who buy appear;
There's a chance ... you'll break even for the year ---
For the whole year ---
There's a chance that you'll break even for the year.

The chain-stores and con-glom-er-ates
Have brought you to your knees;
High taxes, rent and labor costs
Have caught you in a squeeze;
The cost of goods keeps going up ---
Inflation's running on ---
So give thanks ... you can buy cheap from Taiwan ---
Good old Taiwan ---
So give thanks that you can buy cheap from Taiwan.

Mad Magazine - January 1977


We the people
Seem to like cheap products sold by Wal-Mart, etc, ship using UPS (that had its big China opening kickoff while American servicemen and women were being held hostage in Lingshui, Hainan), etc etc.

If you want to stop this, stop buying products from the PRC as long as you do, Wal-Mart and the like will keep buying products from them to sell to American consumers.


Taiwan
plaasjaapie:

Exactly. Products that in the 1970s were made in Taiwan are now made in the PRC (and before they were made in Taiwan, they were made in Japan). Labor costs, land costs and environmental regulations make it difficult to produce cheap consumer products in Taiwan, which is why many of these businesses are now in China. Taiwan is still in the business, but the labor and production is in China (Fujian mostly) not Taiwan.


What does this tell you about China?
Chinese parents favor foreign-brand toys
What does this tell you about China?

China - When freelance writer Wang Jian shops for toys for her 5-year-old son, she’s happy to pay extra for Legos blocks and Japanese-brand train sets.

The reason, she and other parents say: Foreign brands enjoy a reputation for higher quality — a perception reinforced by the product scares of recent months.

“We pay close attention to the news about toy and food safety. If I find a problem with a certain brand, I will just stop using it for sure,” said Wang, who writes for film magazines

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/chinese-parents-fa vor-foreign-brand-toys

China
The description of China' work force and conditions sounds like America 100 years ago.

As to tariffs, the question is not what China is doing. The question is to what agenda are American negotiators answering.

These are the same politicians who shout about the soundness of our economy. How can this be? Even if we were in the lead by ten furlongs, you cannot continue what the 'State' is doing, remain sound, and win the race no matter how you slice it.

However, it makes perfect sense if the agenda is to make china the equal or superior to the United States. Believe me; if you are personally sitting a billion dollars or several hundred million, it really makes no difference that is on top. It only matters to the 40-45% in the middle who is really paying the bills.

Finally
Kudos to Schafly for focussing on the China issue with regards to the Republicans. At minimum, make the Republican candidates for President voice their views on trade and China before election day.

ANSWERING QUESTIONS ABOUT CHINA
This is a subject that has consumed a great deal of my thinking about the economy, free trade, drug safety, toy safety, and food safety.

A commitment knowingly to purchase no products from China has given me great personal satisfaction, and I would like to see a grass-roots determination to act in accordance with that commitment. It is my understanding that many already have. Perhaps Chinese manufacturers will eventually wake up and realize that Americans are not pushovers for deadly products of any kind just because they're "cheap."

If one is dead, one cannot enjoy the fruits of one's frugality.

There was a 12/11/07 Memorandum of Agreement signed by the U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services and the State Food and Drug Administration of the People's Republic of China to "enhance the safety of drugs, excipients and medical devices exported to the U.S. from China."

My question has to do with how responsible U.S. Departments and Commissions are with respect to drug, etc., safety.

Why is it not the responsibility of the company doing such profitable, lucrative business in China?

In other words, why should taxpayers be made to pay for something that a seller should already be doing?

China
And Rob, American economic problems are nothing compared to China's. It banks using western standards are bankrupt, the SOEs suck billions of Yuan out of the economy, there are revolts almost on a daily basis, a small narrow band of Chinese are now very very rich while the peasants remain as poor as they were in 1949.

Add the stupid one-child policy that has millions of men running around that will never find a wife, rivers so polluted that they are unsuitable for even industrial use, other rivers that have run dry and air in some cities that is close to unbreathable.

Oh and then there is Taiwan which could spark a war at anytime.

Reminds me of the 1980s when everyone was so concerned about Japan. Japan didn't end up buying the entire US afterall.


THANKS -- AGAIN -- TO MS. SCHLAFLY
Again, Ms. Schlafly has through her column shed some light on a very serious problem -- this time trade with China.

Thanks are in order for this column. I proffer them.

Responses Are in Order
Akagi: China may be a developing country in certain aspects, but that's deceptive to say the least: Launching satillites (with a moon launch designed), launching satillite killers, owning ports at the mouth of the Panama canal, buying up resources all over the world, holding $1.4 trillion in currency and asset reserves, building an offensive military capability, threatening its neighbors (Taiwan), and holding the '08 Olympics.

Apologists for China have no sympathy from me.
I see them as stooges or worse.

Rob: Sorry, I have studied China for quite some time. The trade deficit with China is only part of a larger overall trade deficit of $800 billion a year and growing. The dollar is falling and countries are shifting out of the dollar. Is this affecting us today? There are already storm clouds on the economic horizon, and like a large ship, it takes time and distance to change direction: By the time it's staring us in the face, and the danger is imminent; it will be too late.

(Actually, the European Union has a larger economy than the U.S., and projections have China overtaking America in the not too distant future.)

It's you, Rob, that is uninformed with your head in the sand.

(Of course, the sub-prime mortgage crisis is a threat, but that's not the issue of this commentary, is it?)

Akagi:
"Reminds me of the 1980s when everyone was so concerned about Japan. Japan didn't end up buying the entire US afterall."

That's basically what this is all about. I lived in China in the middle 1990's and came to have great respect for both the people and the government, though not so much for the army whose officer corps is about as dingy as what you find in most of our Pentagon.

China has a lot of troubles and is doing the best it can to make a better life for its people. It isn't getting it right all the time, but for my money they're doing for their people a LOT better job than out government is doing for ours.

Limited Government
Let the market work. People are sick of Chinese imports- give them an alternative and they will punish China financially. Our first step is to cut spending and gut the social stealing system. This will strengthen our economy and enable us to live within our means and reduce our deficit. Once we are no longer beholden to foreign bankers we can go into trade negotiations with a hard line, wielding a very big stick (access to US markets). It is not the responsibility of DC to test ChiCom products; it is their responsibility to negotiate trade that is favorable to US.

China is a Different Dragon than Japan
China is a different animal than Japan was in the 1980's.

China has 1.3 billion people and growing (Although that growth has slowed with the one child policy.).

While Japan has 110 million people and declining, and was stable in the 1980's.

Literally, Japan has one tenth the population.

Consequently, China's needs for natural resources are a quantum leap from what Japan's was and is.

Japan was a close ally of America in the '80's and had been for 30 years.

Contrast that with China which is not an ally, at best a competitor and rival, and at worst a potential enemy -- although, I believe smart diplomacy can avoid that tragic prospect.

Japan was never thwarting us in our pursuit of national security -- China, while helpful with North Korea (It can be argued a denuclearized Korean peninsula is in China's interest.), has not been nearly so helpful with Iran and Darfur.

China has directly threatened the U.S.: "We could nuke Los Angeles", "we could cause financial nuclear meltdown of American finances by liquidating our dollar securites."

Now, these were saber rattling, but still an unmistakable "shot across the bow."

Undoubtedly, oil prices are partly where they are because of Chinese demand.

China has historical grievances against the West (including America).

We don't know the intent of Chinese leaders and their true long range goals vis-a-vis America.

To analogize China to 1980's Japan is inacurrate and dangerously naive.

China
Jim:

Ni xuexi Zhongguo ma? Ni kandedong pinyin?

China doesn't own ports at the mouth of the Panama Canal, Whampoa operates ports at the mouth of the canal and that is not the same thing. And while it has some ties to the PLA, it is a HK company.

Yes, it will have the Olympics in 08 other super powers that have held them--Mexico,South Korea and Greece. Japan in 1964 was hardly a world power either. it is no great task launching things into space (even the DPRK has almost done that and they are as poor as Haiti) nor is taking out an old comsat. IF they get to the moon, something the US did 40 years ago, and what countless other countries could have done--no great task either in 2007.

As a Taiwan nationalist, I can hardly be considered pro-China. But I don't think they are about to take over the world either.

plaasjaapie:

Don't like the PRC and don't like mainlanders. I am nice to them and they are nice to me, but I still loath them. But I reject China is about to rule the world or that Americans should be afraid of China economically when the US is 4x the size and many people in China like in Gansu or Yunan or Sichuan or Qinghai live on less than $2 a day. And the various other problems facing it.

and Yes Jim, if you knew anything, you'd know that since 1949 the PRC has claimed Taiwan as part of China, but at this point China's threats or just that. As long as Taiwan keeps up the myth that it is the ROC and thus part of a China, the PRC will do nothing and since Ma Ying Jeou (know who he is?) and the KMT will no doubt win the presidency over Hsieh Ch'ang T'ing and the DPP (and the KMT no doubt will add seats next month in the Li Fa Yuan), there is no chance that Taiwan will move toward formal independence which is the only thing that will cause China to do something against Taiwan.




Jim from Oregon:
"Japan was never thwarting us in our pursuit of national security"

How quickly we forget, if we ever knew... In the late 1980's Toshiba sold the USSR the numerically controlled milling machines that enabled the Soviets to create non-cavitating propellers for their submarines, in a stroke dropping their acoustic signature energy by several magnitudes. An investigation conducted at the time indicated that Toshiba knew damned well what their milling machines were going to be used for.

Similarly, Israel tried, last year, to sell China an advanced AWACS system that would have given China the technology to track our stealth fighters and bombers. Mercifully, we caught them at that and got them stopped.

Jim
I didn't say Japan and China were the same, I said basically the American paranoia toward Japan in the 1980s is the same as the paranoia toward China today.


Presidential candidates
Duncan Hunter has been talking about this issue for a long time. Ms. Schlafly needs to do her homework.

http://www.gohunter08.com

China
Israel also sold China advanced air-to-air missles that the US jointly developed with it. That idiot PLAAF pilot Wang Wei was carrying them on his J-8 aircraft when he buzzed US Navy aircraft in January 2001 in the South China Sea. In April 2001 he got too close and crashed into the EP-3 Orion--he crashed and was never found. The Orion landed at Lingshui, Hainan and the crew detained. They have sold other advanced equipment to the Chinese as well. They finally after years of US pressure agreed to no longer sale weapons to countries on the embargo list--which includes China (after Tiananmen).




Sounds to me...
... like Ms. Schlafly and others are advocating more government intrusion into the marketplace. So much for limited government. As for those "millions" of jobs relocating overseas, we've created far more jobs in the US than we've "outsourced". The so-called "trade deficit" is a meaningless statistic.

If you want to avoid Chinese products, that's your right. Do not, however, use Big Government policies to raise prices and limit choices for others.

Jim in Oregon
You said alot of things that I happen to agree with and you mentioned some things that I wasn't aware of. I have read alot of articles from Charles Smith and others which suggest that China is and will be our Greatest Enemy of the Future. China is building their military up to specifically fight the U.S.A. Taiwan could be the spark that triggers Global War. The Demonrats, currently are being bought off and paid for by the Chinese, are attempting to isolate Taiwan to eliminate this risk at the expense of an Ally. Their statements reflect that America should not defend Taiwan at the expense of a War with China - Defeatist. What they fail to realize is that there will be a War with China unless China changes it's direction. I happen to believe that this Country is the actually extremely stupid. I can give several instances that will defend this statement. But for a People to finance their own future potential destruction is ludicrous. Our Politician's and the Elite don't want the American People to know the truth. It might affect their pocketbook. We should hang every Politician and Big Business Financier and declare our that Chinese Products will no longer be allowed into America. Our Manufacturing is almost non-existant and if China wanted too, today they could financially and economically hurt this country really bad. However, the Chinese know this and will allow things to remain as is, until we give them a reason. World War I and II will be equivalent to a back yard brawl in considerations at what our future will hold. Yes, America is very STUPID, especially considering our dealings with the Chinese. No true American should buy any products that are made in China - PERIOD, and we had better get rid of these Demonrats in Office, who will continue to aid and abet the enemy, who is CHINA.

John Galt
Your arguement regarding the trade deficit is rather naive. Yes, there are numerous studies to demonstrate your statement as true. However, I happen to be in a business that is currently supplied in a very large part by the Chinese. Almost all American mfging jobs that previously supplied that industry is almost non-existant today. If the Chinese refused to supply these goods to America due to some political decision, this Country would almost close down overnight. Our Government would be forced to spend hundreds of billions in an attempt to reoutfit and reopen American manufacturing facilities almost overnight. An almost impossible task in the making. The economic impact would make the Depression of the late 1920's early 1930's look mild. Millions would lose their job and their homes. Our Supply and Agricultural Industry would be devastated as well to the point where we might not even be able to supply our own food requirements. So, sit back and be content thinking your right. You are right and both wrong at the same time. America should protect certain percentages of Manufacturing operations for self preservation and economic and financial blackmail by whom could be our next Enemy. I agree in small Government, however, that is not what we got. If we must sacrifice a little Big Government, I would rather it be im protecting our Economy and Future, instead of "Socialistic Health Care".

China
While the US may be an ally of Taiwan, Taiwan is no ally of the US--at least the US doesn't treat Taiwan like an ally--does an ally force the president of its ally to sleep on his plane because they refuse to grant him a transit visa so he can sleep in a hotel? Does an ally scold the democratic elected president of its ally in front of the undemocratic premier of a country that threatens to bathe that ally in blood? Does it cut off arms sales for 14 years? Does it renounce mutual defense treaties? Does the Secretary of State tell a television reporter that its ally doesn't have sovereignity or the right to defend itself?

If the US is an ally of Taiwan, I'd hate to see what an enemy looks like. And abuse by the US has happened in both Democratic and Republican administrations.


And Jimmy, good luck in not buying any PRC made products.

No, I Don't Speak Chinese.
And, while I respect people who speak second languages, at this point, I hope not to have to learn mandarin.

Whampao -- the name of the Chinese military academy of the nationalist Chinese in the '20's.

Telling, isn't it?

"...some ties to the PLA,"...People's Liberation Army. Enough said.

Sorry, Akagi, you're falling all over youself, trying to make China out to be just another poor "developing country." I'm not buying that line and the facts back me up.

KMT -- Kuomintang -- yes, I know, the nationalist party on Taiwan that was the party of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and the mainland nationalists, expelled in 1949 and who fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

The KMT holds out that there is one China, and I support that official U.S. policy, but that hasn't stopped Red China from building up hundreds of missiles across the Formosa Straight from Taiwan.

Ma Ying Jeou is the presidential candidate for the KMT (Admittedly, that is from your context, as much as my personal knowledge.).

Again, the facts speak for themselves.

Frankly, I don't think China is ready to "rule the world" either, but that doesn't mean America should just assume their intentions benevolent.

Truth is we don't know China's intentions, and as you know, Chinese think stategically in very long terms, particularly as opposed to short term American economic expediency.



Whampoa
Actually Whampoa in Chinese is "He Ji Huang Pu You Xian Gong si" Huang Pu was not the name of the Military academy per se, but simply where it was located--like West Point. The true name is Zhong Hua Min Guo Lu Jun Jun Guan Xue Xiao. The name of Whompoa as a company pre dates the military academy by almost 60 years. It is today located in Fengshan, Kaohsiung County, Taiwan.



And the KMT really no longer has that policy not since the early 1990s when Lee Teng Hui was president.


Fengshan
The academy, not the company. The company is headquarted in Hong Kong as it has been since the mid-19th century.


Consumers and Producers
Consumers want the lowest prices, I understand.

Certainly, China has provided low cost goods that satisfied American's love of a good bargain.

But our nation can't remain a superpower on consumption alone. America became a great power and won two world wars by being a great manufacturing nation.

The idea that America can retain it's standard of living on a "financial economy" controlled by financiers and arbitrageurs is a dangerous mirage.

People who make things whether one at a time or in great factories, made, and if we're smart, will keep America strong.

But neither is it productive to lash out at China or any other country America has a trade deficit with.

Diplomacy and negotiation (hard nosed, admittedly) is the key to changing America's direction and our present trade relationship with China.

Trade is good. Bad trade regimes with disadvantageous terms are not good.

I disagree with Jimmy D, who wants to slam the door on trade. What we need is serious negotiation.

John Gault is wrong, it is not "big government" to insist on trade that is beneficial to both parties.

Heck, we had protectionist tariffs for most of the 19th century and up to 1929, with 1865 to '29 bringing the largest economic expansion in American history, which brought us to being a world power, without ever being accused of being "big government."

That happened with the "NEW DEAL."

The status quo is unacceptable -- those that say it is, are seriously deluding themselves or are cynically spouting slogans, while personally "getting theirs" while America is placed in a more precarious position all the time.

Consumers can't long consume more than they make.


One more thing
"...some ties to the PLA,"..."People's Liberation Army. Enough said."


The PLA has been called the Chinese Sony, as a major company in Hong Kong--a Fortune 500 company, yes, Hutchinson Whampoa has ties to the PLA--what major company in China or HK doesn't? PLA is more than an army, but a major business entity as well--think Microsoft, only with tanks and nuclear weapons.


I Stand Corrected on Whampoa.
But not on the real issue. Akagi, I notice you tend to distract into minutia of no real consequence to the discussion.

The salient point was that China (or as you like, Chinese company) is running ports at the mouth of the Panama canal and has ties to the PLA.

And that this is hardly the profile of some struggling developing country America should take pity on.

And yes, that is how many apologists descibe China.

China is a competitor -- some would say rival -- and to treat China any other way is to invite disaster.

The Chinese are smart, rational, and competitive.

If you insist on a good deal from China...the Chinese will understand, as they also want the best deal, too. But they won't give you anything.

Chinese are great traders, in fact, their disaspora across South East Asia dominate trade to the point where some countries descriminate against ethnic Chinese. This is wrong, but so is giving a free pass to China and selling America short.

Republican candidates need to answer questions about China.

And if their're not, then their're whistling past the graveyard.

And The American People are the losers.

Curses on China
The Chinese deserve NO access to American markets.

They are an evil people intentionally poisoning our children and food supply.

Bush and congress are letting them do it too. Anyone in congress or the Whitehouse supporting trade with China should be impeached.

This can be laid at Bill Buckley and National Review's feet as well.

But Americans are too stupid to do anything about it now. I guess the lead has taken affect and done its dastardly deed.

Who makes the plastics in your kitchenware, food storage bags, and packaging?????????

I'll bet the Chinese have our entire food supply contaminated, even through the materials we package and cook our food in.

Curses on them all.


Whampoa
IS an international company that is older than either the PRC or the ROC. It runs ports all over the world, you can worry about a number of things about China--Hutchinson Whampoa is not one of them.

China is actually an NIC, but some places in China like Qinghai, etc are as poor as Haiti.

They haven't poisoned the US on purpose, but they have poor quality control and poor customer protections. They posion themselves too.

And Dark matter, the business elites that want access to Chinese markets will never let the the Chinese turned away from US markets because China would do the same to the US. The Chinese even had access after Tiananmen--in 1990 MFN was still granted and in 1991, etc until it became PTR and the ritualistic trade warfare every Spring ended and now China is in the WTO. If you tried to keep China out of US markets, I think the WTO would have something to say about that.


re: Jimmy D, Jim from Oregon
First of all, if China is making big bucks trading with us, then the incentive increases for them to continue doing so. Doing something nefarious that would cripple our economy costs them as well, making such action more "expensive" to them and therefor less likely.

But further, a "trade deficit" is a misnomer in part because it fails to take into account the fact that almost nothing is produced entirely in one place. iPods, for example, are "made in China" and therefore count against our so-called "trade deficit"; however, a breakdown of the total price of an iPod shows that US businesses end up getting more from the purchase price than do Chinese; likewise Japanese businesses.

If we are getting less expensive goods and services due to imports, that frees up our capital to develop other businesses. Raising our prices for goods and services does not help our economy.

"Fair trade" is when two entities willingly engage in commerce absent fraud or coercion.

As to the United States and its tariff history, during its period of great economic growth in the late 1890s to 1929, we had *LOW* tariffs. That came crashing down in 1929 with the passage of Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, an attempt to achieve "fair trade" by increased government intrusion. And no, Jim, I don't need the government to tell me when trade is "beneficial to both parties", nor does government intrusion on the marketplace make trade more "beneficial".

China should be held accountable.
China should be held to the same monetary behavior expected by it's trading partners, insuring all participants have reasonable expectations to be competitive and gain access to markets based on that competitive position. A productive international trading system suffers when a key member of the system deviates from the careful balancing act by central banks in member countries. Taxes, borrowing, profits, are all skewed when the profit centers in each country are hobbled.

A whole schedule of import duties levied on goods from uncooperative or uncompetitive trading partners is called for.

We are acting as enablers of the power hungry autocrats in Beijing who are less interested in the progress of a very productive people than in their quest for absolute control over that unfortunate population while seeking to become the center of Asian hegemony.

If the Chinese were both willing and capable trading partners, then they would have long ago instituted systems of quality control in keeping with the expectations and standards of the markets they export to. The problem is they're trying to run a competitive, dynamic economy from their archaic centralized towers. Bureaucrats know less about doing than how to tell someone to do or not do something.

In the mean time, is the pottery glaze on my dishes lead free? How about the glass in my drinking cup?

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter as previously mentioned has had the issue of China and free trade on his website all along (gohunter08.com). Republican candidates shouldnt have to be asked about the issue of China, it should be an important subject already out there.

Histroy, Economics, and the Golden Goose
Mr. Gault it's true China isn't likely to do anything to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

Which also suggests China would respond to tough negotiation because they need our market more than we need theirs.

Not withstanding their saber rattling.

But that doesn't mean they aren't willing to take advantage of America's market.

To think that there hassn't unequal trade is to ignore history and personal experience.

Let's face reality, some deals are better than others.

America can push for a better deal -- and get it.

And, who is to say, what could happen down the road in a mad scramble for resources -- gone scarce -- or some political incident.

I don't want America in a position where we are out bid or simply have to knuckle under to an imperious China with superior economic strength.

Asserting that trade deficits don't matter or can't be measured is ludicrous Pumping dollars into the world economy increases the dollar's supply.

The value of the dollar goes down.

It gets more expensive to import as prices go up.

The law of supply and demand is not suppended.

But China does seem more than willing to turn a blind eye on their companies selling us tainted products, violating our copyright laws, and stealing technolgy.

We don't have "free trade" anyway, that is just a label to masquerade for managed trade.


Mr. Gault, you are wrong on your American history. The 1890's to 1929 were high tariff years, ironically legislated by Republicans backed by big business.

Smoot-Hawely was a much higher tariff, more of an absolute barrier to trade, besides, Milton Friedman, the free trader, argued that monetary policy was responsible for the crash -- the Fed drastically shrunk the money supply (lack of liquidity).

Facts, date and analysis carry more weight than ideology and dogma.

Phyllis Do The Right Thing!
Give Duncan Hunter your full endorsement and get behind his struggling campaign! DD

re: Jim from Oregon
Fed monetary policy was, according to Friedman, the root cause of the Great Depression; however, if you read further, he also details how Smoot-Hawley deepened the crisis. He argued consistently for lower tariffs on imported goods.

Again, trade deficits are a bogus statistic. Read any free market economist, starting with Dr. Walter Williams right here on Townhall, and you'll find the same answer. Tariffs are government intrusion on the free market, and a tax on citizens. If China taxes its citizens higher than we tax ours, the way to "level the playing field" isn't to raise taxes on our own citizens. Tariffs reduce competitive pressures on our domestic items, reducing the incentives for companies to bargain more toughly with unions, to cut costs, to increase product offerings, to improve quality, and to more efficiently utilize resources.

To improve competitiveness of US businesses, we shouldn't be asking for more government interference, we should be asking for LESS. Lower the corporate income tax. Simplify and flatten the entire tax system to reduce compliance costs. Cut through the red tape of excessive regulation. One would think that on an ostensibly "conservative" website, that would be the default position, not the contrarian one.

Our priority is all wrong.
China will do what most benefits China.

If our policies result in benefitting China, the Chinese leadership will not object. It should be the American people who object to our policies which benefit China at the expense of our own nation.

China, in league with greedy American corporations, sends us cheap consumer products that are little more than junk. They then take the money from the sale of this junk and purchase highly advanced and technologically sophisticated products, such as European Airbus passenger aircraft(rather than purchasing U.S. high technology products from Boeing.

China has concluded military alliances with Russia...and make no mistake about whom the target of the Sino-Russian military pact is...it is the U.S.A.

China has already demonstrated it will not hesitate to destroy our commercial(banking, financial transactions, etc), military, and spy satellites, in effect rendering us blind in terms of any military response we might contemplate, and sending our economy into utter chaos.

China has refused to permit our naval vessels harbor in its ports, even when our ships were threatened by a typhoon.

Bush should refocus. We obsess over Iraq and ignore China.

Very, very bad and unwise policy by this administration.

A fool's game
Jim from Oregon has a practical grasp of the issues we are confronting. The issue of fair trade is not, however, simply an issue for China - but part of a larger picture. The Chinese are responsible for about 1/3 of our current trade deficits. Gault comments that we should not counter tariffs to tariffs, but rather deal with those tariffs by cutting taxes and reducing government interference in business. However, this isn't realistic. A combination of a 25% tariff and a refusal to float their currency gives the Chinese a 60% + advantage. No action by the US government can offset that advantage. A 60% advantage simply cannot be overcome by internal government actions alone.

It is also somewhat unrealistic to think that our government would even remotely consider taking the kind of action advocated.

Those that advocate negotiations should also keep in mind that we have become a debtor to the Chinese, and the world. We cannot effectively negotiate when they own so much of our debt. They are our banker - and we cannot threaten the loss of markets without having them threaten to liquidate our debt, or refuse to buy more. This debt is far more powerful as a negotiating tool than any number of carriers. We cannot, in sum, negotiate - we have no leverage.

While the debate rages, of course, companies lose the markets they once had - or find that they cannot enter new markets. And, our industrial base continues to decline.

China and Europe are not Japan. Europe is a common market with a common currency that is now larger than our economy, and China is projected to have a larger economy within 20 years.

It has become a fool's game. Entire segments of industry are now gone - and we simply debate.

And Akagi, I'll give you credit. The last time you posted on this issue you tried to claim that we weren't losing manufacturing jobs. Today, at least, you haven't tried that gambit.




Trade good, government bad
If China is indeed "sending us products that are little more than junk", then American consumers have the choice to buy other products if they wish. Apparently, not everything we're getting is "junk", and the products are at least worth what they're priced. At any rate, it still is true that more government intrusion in the marketplace is not the answer; tariffs distort the market, stifle innovation, disincentivize American companies from improving their efficiency, productivity, and quality.

If cutting taxes doesn't offset the Chinese "advantage", then let's take advantage of the subsidy we're getting from the citizens of China and the fact that their government is screwing them over. The answer to that is not for our government to start screwing us.

Obviously, China is going to do what benefits China, just as we are going to do what benefits us, and so on. Has nobody read Adam Smith? The butcher isn't providing delicious steak to me because he cares about me, he's doing it in his own best interest; yet we both benefit from the trade deficit I have with him, else we wouldn't do business.

As for "losing manufacturing jobs", actually that's the result of technology, and worldwide manufacturing jobs have been dropping since the 1950s when one looks at them relative to industrial output and population; likewise, world agricultural jobs have been in decline for the past century or more. Technology increasing productivity, which means fewer workers are required to produce more products -- the "creative destruction" of capitalism.

Those worried about who's holding our debt seem to be focused on the symptoms rather than the problem itself: if our government weren't so large & obtrusive and spending so much money, we wouldn't be selling so many bonds to finance its operation. The answer to this is not raising taxes on American consumers.

Republican presidential comments China
Good article. The only Presidential candidate that I know is Duncan Hunter who speaks about China Free Trade. His response is to buy American made things. He is also the only candidate that speaks about all the important issues of today. His record speaks for itself in his truthfulness to stand for conservative issues. If only the news media would give him a chance to speak more often and less time given to the candidates who have flip flopped in order to get votes.

Thank you for giving me the chance to voice my view.

Wilma Miller
Washington, OK

Jim from O

Ha ha ha. They should have been thinking long term when they decided to become a country overrun with men and almost NO WOMEN.

I have to think that a country with millions of frustrated men can't be good! ; P

Akagi-- wished I was on here yesterday since you brought up Israel. It's a subject I have been wanting to get your opinion on for some time now. Oh well, I guess I lost my chance.

Gault
We need to deal with the problems we have - and we're not. But we also need to deal with the problems that our refusal to deal with those same problems have created both on-shore and off-shore. There can be no solution if both are not dealt with.

The practical issue, needless to say, is that we're not dealing with any of it.

We are confronting a gathering economic storm. But, the country is divided. One group is determined to maintain the military that we have - which causes us to spend 10 to 20X as much per capita as any Europeon Country (and 6X as much as China). A second group is determined to have social programs that are similar to Europes, and a third believes that we can have lower taxes than other countries while paying for both. It doesn't work, so we run chronic deficits which other countries must finance.

This will lead to an inevitable crisis, and it will be every bit as wrenching as those that inevitably pulled apart other superpowers.

The trends are clearly evident. Our economic output as a % of the world's is and will continue to decline. The dollar will not continue indefinitely to be the world's currency of choice as this happens. Powerful economic blocs have been created or are rising, trade is global, communications are global, our economies are interdependent in a way that never existed historically. Our freedom of movement and action is increasingly being curtailed by forces we cannot control in the way we once did.

We have choices to make. But have no illusions. We are not going to make them yet. Until we do - people like you and I will debate what to us is obvious, but to others is not yet something they can or will deal with.

The storm gathers. I can only wonder how much damage it will do before we work up the national will to deal with it?

.

China
China could not get these products,be they food,clothing or toys without american corporations aiding and abetting them.

The Fair Tax
The Fair Tax would encourage U.S. manufacturing driven out by our current tax system. Take a closer look at fairtax.org With U.S. manufacturing our clothes, toys, food, pet food, and other goods, we wouldn't have to worry about safety issues. We need manufacturing jobs here.

Nancy Crayton
Sammamish, WA

I Was Once a Free Trader
Yes, that's right, but my view began to change when I was confronted repeatedly with contrary facts and evidence. And, I was presented with analysis that could logically explain the facts and evidence where "free trade theory" could not.

I was exercising a critical mind, a necessity in advancing knowledge and understanding.

Free trade theory, is just that, theory. It doesn't exist in the real world between nations.

As much as I might like it to be so.

Mr. Gault lives in a fantasy world of how he would like it to be. But not reality.

So much so does Mr. Gault and others live in a fantasy, that their prescription is unilateral disarmanent.

Much like the left's desire in the early '80's for unilateral disarmanent in the face of Soviet missiles in Europe, free traders cling to a theory that puts America in an untenable disadvantage vis-a-vis other countries, specifically China.

It was at self-deceiving then and at best self-deiving now. I will not ignore reality to protect my cherished theory of how I wish things to be.

"Politics is the art of the possible."

As pointed out already John's policy ideas simply don't fit the above mandate about plitical solutions.

But he obviously doesn't care, so long as it allows him to cradle and clutch his idolatry.

re: Jim from Oregon
Sorry Jim, all that I'm "clutching" is the mantle of free market economics. Freedom from intrusion on the marketplace and my individual choice by a corrupt government and people who don't understand economics and trade. Trade is not made "fair" by an increase in taxes and government interference. Countries don't tax themselves into prosperity. Never have, never will. When tariffs are raised, consumers -- individuals -- and their liberties are infringed upon. Less government intrusion fosters innovation, competition, productivity, efficiency, and prosperity. Always has, always will.

I had the privilege of meeting a Chinese
professor, with a PhD, in a small meeting about one year ago. There were approximately twenty of us in attendance. He spoke English very well, but I sat b/w the translator and the Professor. He told how China is on the brink of Civil War. They have two main parties the Nationalists and the Radical Nationalists. The latter want to use nuclear weapons and blow Japan off the face of the earth. The only thing that stops them, is their fear of the US. They know we will come to the aid of Japan if any missiles or hostile movements are targeted toward Japan. He said China hates 2 countries Japan and the United States, but Japan more.

Why do we continue to deal with this Communist nation that is trying to kill our children and steal our ideas? I say STOP TRADE with China! They'll be singing a different tune and because we import things from them, which we can obtain elsewhere, it will not hurt us! Then we export so much to them, they will suffer from the lack of materials! They ban our newspapers, magazines, and any other "propaganda." Yet they want our technology! CUT them off...sooner than later.

Spouting Slogans Doesn't Prove Anything
The problem Mr. Gault is that all you are doing is repeating slogans.

When you have attempted to deal with history, you were wrong. When an inconvenient fact or piece of data is presented to you -- you say it doesn't matter.

I have refuted your claims with analysis of the facts; while you arrogantly dismiss those who disagree with you as "people who don't understand economics and trade."

Obviously, I and others do understand economics and trade. And I understand how nations rise and fall. Unwise trade policies are one factor.

You live in a fantasy world devoid of geo-politics; But nations don't play in your make believe world. Certainly China doesn't. They play to win and possibly to dominate.

China manipultates its currency to get an advantage, they apply a tariff and call it a VAT,
they use slave labor, they rip us off by not honoring our patents, or copyright laws, they sell us poisonous items because it's cheaper.

They look at you and whisper to themselves, "Sucker."

And all the while they and their accomplishes in "international business" are laughing to the bank -- while jobs and production are eliminated, here, in America.

And you keep mumbling on about unilateral disarmanent and clutching your idol.


The Akagi Confusion
Akagi writes: Monday, December, 17, 2007 1:03 PM
"...China isn't an ally of the US if that is what you mean. Communist--not really--it is a one-party, authoritarian state not unlike Taiwan in the 1960s..."
**********************************************

What the A-koger fails to realize is that EVERYWHERE, EVERY TIME Communism has been tried, it has naturally become a "one-party authoritarian state."

This is the fallacy of Marxism, that you can force people into a state that is designed contrary to human nature and human instincts.

Everywhere Marxism/Socialism is the rule of the day, people attempt to go around it by establishing an underground Capitalistic economy. The more the people are suppressed, the more they secretly rebel. The totalitarian noose gets tighter and tighter, and authoritarian bureaucrats take over.

In this country, as in Western Europe, we have permitted the Left (read Marxists) to attempt a slow-motion takeover by brainwashing children in the schools.

The attitude of "the world owes me a living," which has arisen out of this fiasco, while in the context of the prosperity that capitalism created, has created a generation of passive Americans, who don't even know the value of standing up for their country.

Meanwhile, the people who practiced underground capitalism while hiding from the totalitarian Marxist regimes, move here, and set free, compete very aggressively.

The Americans, like highly trained pet puppies, roll over and wag our tails as our country is taken out from under us.

str8t talk
Yes, I am very frustrated that I can't find products that were not made in China.

Everything, from my toothpaste and toilet paper, has changed for the worse. My toothpaste, a name brand, has been leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I switched brands, but find it is the same thing in different packaging.

Scott tissue, which I have used for my entire life, suddenly sported a "new and improved" sign on the packaging. When I got it home, I found the paper was lower quality and wrinkled on the roll. The start end was glued down, and required me to tear apart half the roll to use it. When I complained, a snippy representitive told me that their focus groups liked the new paper.

Where exactly were these meetings held, I ask you? In the john?

And who did they ask? Yak shephards who were accustomed to using the latest "Reds-R-Us" catalogue?

re: Jim from Oregon
Haha, whatever buddy. Facts? No, you're the one accusing me of "clutching" some "mantle". You're advocating greater government interference in trade, I'm not. You have yet to produce one example of a country taxing itself into prosperity, and I showed a specific example of why your trade policy doesn't and wouldn't work. You have yet to produce an example of an economy that prospered more upon increasing the intrusion of government into the market.

Jobs are increasing in America, and would increase dramatically more quickly if we would unshackle our own businesses from high taxation. Raising taxes on our own citizens is no way to "get back" at China.

You do mention some points we've not touched on that are good, such as intellectual property. That's a bit of a separate issue, and is a matter of government acting to enforce contracts (treaties), not adding additional taxes and intrusion on our own citizens.

Face the Facts
John, you simply fail to face facts, that I and others in the comments have listed plenty, including, of course, Mrs. Schlafly in the commentary that started off this thread.

Frankly, it's China's subsidizing trade in one way or another, and with America just accepting it to the tune of a $230 billion trade deficit in '06 and growing that I find unacceptable. Actually, I like low taxes as much as the next guy, but China isn't playing by your rules. They are doing everything they can to export to U.S. with importing from U.S.

I already gave you a historical example: America from 1865 to 1929 with high tariffs, and your response was to foolishly try to say otherwise when the historical record is clear.

But I'll give you three more: Japan for years used tariffs and quotas to keep American products out and did pretty well. So did South Korea, and most important, for this discussion: China. You want rules that the other side isn't playing by. I want China to follow the rules and make the rules balanced for both countries (but frankly, I want the rules to favor us, just as the Chinese do for themselves).

Service sector jobs don't pay as well as manufacturing.

Intellectual property is not a "seperate issue."

That's what you don't grasp, in geo-politics, it's all inter-related. It's all on the table.

"Subsidizing trade"
If China (or any country) "subsidizes trade", that is, subsidizes products they sell to us, then we should *thank* them -- their citizens are being taxed to provide us with cheaper goods.

"Trade deficits" are simply not important. You don't seem to understand that they simply are meaningless and misleading. One example: every iPod bought in this country contributes to the "trade deficit" because they are "made in China"; yet more of the price of an iPod goes to American companies than Chinese companies. Our technology is powering the iPod, the Chinese workers are just assembling them.

You keep repeating over and over that you have "facts", but you still can't point to any country that is better off as a result of implementing high taxes and increasing government interference in its market. The United States was one of the least regulated, lowest-taxed countries in the world until 1929, when the Phyllis Schlaflys of the time passed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. Other periods of American history show similar results. Less government intrusion improves efficiency, productivity, competition, prices, and choices every time. You can't come up with an example of a country that collapsed from too much free market capitalism because none exist.

As for Japan, let's look at their economic record over the past, say, 35 years compared to ours. They're building plants in the US and we're having 3-5% growth each quarter and their economy has been stagnant for years in spite of interest rates near zero.

Childrens Books
I went shopping for Childrens books yesterday. It was frightening. Nearly EVERY book from Aesops Fables to Babies First Picture books are printed in China.

It took me one and a half hours to find only two children's poetry books not printed in China. One from Mexico (Good Night Moon), and a collection of poetry for young children printed in Indonesia.

And I hated touching the books throughout the entire ordeal.

No doubt the ChiComs are poisioning our children with books too, all with the blessings of your government who puts money ahead of your children.

It was next to impossible to find Childrens books that were not printed in China.

Little ones gnaw on these books (including the floating tubby books) and they actually can get some of the hardboard ones down their throats.

Parents, grandparents, and those who love their babies and toddlers: beware. The government and the ChiComs want your kids retarted.

The better to rule them.

by the way, Jim from Oregon
It isn't enough to just point out countries that "did alright" with high tariffs, because one can't say how much better they would have done without. We can argue about whether or not American tariffs were "high" during this period or that, but neither of us has provided documentation to show exactly what tariffs were during ANY period of time. The fact is, however, that when the US attempted to dramatically raise tariffs with Smoot-Hawley, using the same rationale that people are using today to justify increased government intrusion in the marketplace, the economy responded with exreme negative prejudice.

So the question becomes: when has a country *increased* taxation and government intrusion in the marketplace and had an *increase* in economic productivity, growth, and efficiency?

And no, intellectual property issues are separate from the overall trade issue. You can deal with them separately. Enforcing trademarks and patents is government enforcing contracts and law; you're advocating government increasing taxation and interference in the free market.

Liberal Putting Hands Over Ears
Your not intellectually honest.

No serious U.S. historian will argue that America was a high tariff country.

I have made a laundry list of issues, facts, data, of which you haven't answered.

You repeat the boilerplate of your dogma.

"Trade deficits are not important."
That comment is economic illiteracy.

Your example is one situation. But hardly is a full picture.

All that $230 billion trade deficit is a myth.
Yeah, right.

Your blind to how dogmatic you look and indeed are.

You obviously have no grasp of history.

I cite countries that had mercantilist trade policies that rose to world power -- your response was to argue the meaning of "is" -- that's not a serious response.

John Galt -- you act exactly like a liberal ideolgue -- you put your hands over your ears.

The Question is this: Can we stop people like you who will misrepresent facts, ignore data, and distort history to fit your would view before America is run into the ditch.

And if America does fall -- will we know where to find you to say "I told you so."

CORRECTION: Was NOT a High Tariff Nation
Between 1865 and 1929.

By the way, Milton Friedman (author of Free to Choose) argued that it was monatary policy that caused the '29 crash. And Smoot-Hawley was a much smaller factor than generally believed.

John Galt acknowledged this in one of his previous comments, but I see in his last comment it was conveniently ignored.

This is an example of John's Galt's intellectual dishonesty.

A rather explicit display of Galt's desperation to protect his dogma.

Galt would run America into the ground to protect his dogma.

re: Jim
It is not intellectually dishonest to cite Smoot-Hawley as a contributor to the Great Depression when Nobel Laureate economists such as the aforementioned Milton Friedman acknowledge its role. Yes, you are correct that he doesn't cite it as the *cause*, but he has written extensively about trade policy.

As for the trade deficit being a myth, I'm simply agreeing with economists' analyses, free market economists like Milton Friedman, Walter Williams, Don Boudreaux, Russell Roberts, Robert Mundell, etc. You say "No serious U.S. historian will argue that America was [not] a high tariff country", yet quote none, and provide no example of a country that has been more prosperous as a result of enacting greater government interference in the economy and higher levels of taxation. You say you've cited a "laundry list of issues, facts, data", but actually you haven't, just examples of economies that are weaker than ours.

You ignore the fact that America has been more prosperous when taxes and government intrusion have been lower; less prosperous with high taxes and great intrusion.

The so-called "trade deficit" is simply a case of American consumers CHOOSING to buy products that have a stamp on them that they're assembled somewhere other than the USA. You wish to use the force of government to restrict their choices. You wish to make the government MORE intrusive and INCREASE taxation, then ironically you accuse ME of "act[ing] exactly like a liberal". Pretty amazing.

I'll ask again: what country has ever become MORE prosperous by increasing taxation and intrusion on the free market?

Fundamental Disagreement
John, our disagreement is not over "taxes" in the traditional sense. I supported every tax cut that has been proposed and enacted.

And have objected to every tax increase whether local, state, or national.

The disagreement is over geo-political relations and trade flows.

Trade is good. But not all trade is universally beneficial in an equal way to both parties.

There are winners and losers in trade competition. You don't accept that contention.

But the historical record says otherwise.

Within the free market of America and among ourselves, I suspect our views aren't that far apart. Generally less regulation the better.

But you have a benign view of other nations intent and motivations that I don't share.

When a nation consumes imported finished products and exports raw materials, where is the ownership profit and lobor imcome accruing?

Where the finished products are being manufactured.

Exporting raw materials -- and that is what America is evolving to (With the notable exception of financial instruments, but that can change too.), America is not receiving the value added of the production process.

Over the long term that is going to effect American standards of living.

If you consume more than you produce your living standards will have to go down. That's a truism.

"No country ever taxed itself to properity." Truism, yes. But no country ever imported to prosperity either, you produce to prosperity -- that's true of individuals as well as nations.

But you fail to recognize that in your world view.


"American" International Business
One important addition: I stated that ownership profit and labor income accrue where the manufacturing is located.

An important exception is ocurring with "American" international business.

They shut down American cited manufacturing and turn around and locate it off-shore in another country. The "American" business retains the ownership profit (shared with the host country in the form of taxes), but alienates the labor income from American workers and transfers it to foreign workers in the host county.

While this definitely works for the "American Business" owner, hence, the tremendous resistance to any change in the current status quo. It does deprive Americans of high wage jobs and America of production and manufacturing.

And, so, how "American" in the end are these international businesses?

America is not just another economic unit and Americans are not just an economic man.

Loyalty does count, at least to me.

Does loyalty count to these "American" international business men?

Sometimes I wonder.

Tariffs ARE taxes
And there is still plenty of manufacturing in the United States. Outsourcing is largely also a myth on a broad statistical scale -- "in"sourcing far outweighs "out"sourcing even today. Manufacturing IS getting more productive and efficient, thanks to the "creative destruction" of technological innovation.

I don't have a "benign view of other nations intent and motivations", I have belief that government intrusion in the marketplace is a negative, not a positive, and that the proper response to another country's government's intrusion is not to have our own government follow suit.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. If we get cheaper shirts from Vietnam, it means we have more money to spend on something else. If we get cheaper steel from South Africa, it means construction costs are cheaper here in the US. Yes, on a micro scale that hurts steel workers in the Rust Belt, but the overall benefit to the economy is overwhelmingly positive.

With that, I'm outta here -- time to head to the airport. Merry Christmas.

Trade is not a Zero-Sum game, Agreed
But it is not a situation where no matter what the terms of trade are -- both sides win an equal amount.

There are sides that "win" more and sides that "win" less.

Why?

Because humans are involved and have intelligence, competitive drive, and want to get the "better side of the bargain."

This is possibly even more true of countries than individuals, in the geo-politcal struggle, we call international diplomatic relations.

I say negotiate for better terms.

You say let the market decide -- even if other countries are distorting the market against America for their own selfish purposes.

That I will never go along with.

Merry Christmas!


Smell Chicom's "Compatriot" ?
A socialist tyranny inside out, the Regime has been masquerading itself as going capitalism for the “rise” since the 80’s. Its business guise and media propaganda through “compatriots” and “foreign friends” planted and recruited in the West have deceived almost the whole earth.

To speak like a dragon is to be like the devil which “speaks its native language when it lies”. No wonder the whole history of the Regime is the cyclopedia of ultimate cheating.

In dealing with the dragon-tongued Regime, even the world’s most powerful politicians and largest corporations have succumbed to its temptation for the sake of the “potential”. ... Unfortunately they have dishonored themselves just like Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden tree.

Above quoted from "Behold. 666 is here" at
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/chow051007.htm
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