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Monday, November 26, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Feminists Abuse Domestic Violence Laws
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Radical feminists have devised a scheme to cash in on the flow of taxpayer money in a big way. Their good buddy, Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., has just introduced Senate Bill 2279, called the International Violence Against Women Act.

The act earmarks at least 10 percent of its program funds to be granted to a certain type of women's organizations. Biden's press release identifies the favored groups: NOW's Legal Momentum, Family Violence Prevention Fund, Women's Edge Coalition, and Center for Women's Global Leadership.

The act would create a new Office of Women's Global Initiatives that would control all foreign domestic-violence programs and funds in the Departments of State, Justice, Labor, Health and Human Services, and Homeland Security.

Radical feminists who would be the recipients of the act's awesome bureaucratic and money power are very selective about the kinds of violence they will target in 10 to 20 foreign countries. They have no interest in speaking up for the hundreds of thousands of unborn girls in China and India who are victims of sex-selection abortions.

Feminist ideology about the goal of gender-neutrality and the absence of innate differences between males and females goes out the window when it comes to the subject of domestic violence. Feminist dogma is that the law should assume men are batterers and women are victims.

How this malicious ideology plays out in U.S. courts every day is described in a revealing article in the November Illinois Bar Journal (available at www.eagleforum.org/links). Titled "Sword or Shield: Combating Orders-of-Protection Abuse in Divorce," the article spells out how petitioners can gain unfair advantage in divorce and child custody by using the Illinois Domestic Violence Act.

Political correctness requires that the Illinois Bar Journal use gender-neutral words, but anyone familiar with this subject knows that "petitioner" overwhelmingly means wife and "respondent" means husband.

Orders of Protection were designed to be a "shield" to protect against domestic violence. This article bluntly describes how a petitioner can use an orders of protection as a "sword" to obtain child custody in an expedited manner, to restrict a father's visitation with his children, and to gain exclusive use of the home.

The petitioner simply bypasses the Illinois Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act and instead goes to court under the Illinois Domestic Violence Act because that statute has a clear bias. As artfully described in the Illinois Bar Association article, it is "petitioner-friendly."

Orders of protection, available at any courthouse, are easy to file even by non-lawyers, and rarely require any fees. The Illinois Domestic Violence Act permits non-attorney domestic-abuse advocates to sit at the counsel table and give confidential and privileged advice to the petitioner.

It's also much easier to get an order of protections, and once granted along with exclusive possession of the home, the law clearly favors the wife maintaining child custody and the home unless the husband is able to present a preponderance of evidence that the custody arrangement is a hardship to him. The divorce act gives no such preferential presumption.

Accusations of abuse and demands for an order of protection are extremely useful in denying child custody to the respondent. The Illinois Domestic Violence Act includes "a rebuttable presumption that awarding physical care to respondent would NOT be in the minor child's best interest."

The Illinois Domestic Violence Act requires that a petition for an order of protection be expedited, and judges typically allot only 15 or 20 minutes to each case, which is not enough time to hear all the relevant evidence. Resolving a custody decision in a divorce proceeding usually requires many months.

The Illinois Bar article concludes: "If a parent is willing to abuse the system, it is unlikely the trial court could discover (her) improper motives in an Order of Protection hearing."

Under the divorce law, a parent is entitled to "reasonable visitation rights." But he loses those rights in an order of protection hearing under the Illinois Domestic Violence Act because the standards of evidence do not apply and the court has "wide discretion to restrict visitation."

The greatest potential for abuse of the system is that a petitioner can circumvent the divorce law and thereby restrict visitation by the other parent. The longer a parent is able to retain temporary custody, the greater her opportunity to obtain permanent custody.

The use of orders of Protection is a "high stakes matter," not only because it can irrevocably affect the lives of the children, but because violating an order of protection is a crime for which the respondent can be jailed.

The law journal's advice to lawyers on how to prevent their clients from being railroaded as a victim of order of protection is pretty pathetic: "spend time and money."

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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The problem with you, Phyllis
is that you see any woman who is concerned about women's issues as God-hating, communist, baby-killing, monsters.

1958 passed a long time ago, Phyl.

pot kettle
calm.Touj writes: Monday, November, 26, 2007 12:01 PM
The problem with you, Phyllis
is that you see any woman who is concerned about women's issues as God-hating, communist, baby-killing, monsters.

1958 passed a long time ago, Phyl.
-----
Maybe it's you that should stop hanging with God-hating, communist, baby-killing monsters so that you can realize those people are not worried about women's issues, Touj. A viewpoint that reversed and/or founded in some reversed-reality about caring for people by murdering them is about as hollow a group as I can imagine.

P.S. They were discussing these questions frankly in 18th and 19th century Europe, too. Amazing how all the enlightened people kept murdering the unenlightened. But, of course, evil only started when you learned your political identity!

fivo
there are republicans who are pro-choice, there are conservatives who are atheists.

there are liberals (like myself) who are pro-life and religious.

the world is not black and white.


woman's issues?
I think you mean sexist political preferences and pork chasing.

It is amazing how feminists are able to play both sides of the court... women are powerful and capable, and women are helpess beings needing chivalristic protection.

She got it right...
What can I say? Phyllis has it right. The US legal system has been effectively a gynarchy for decades. It shouldn't be that way, but it is all the same.

It's little wonder that the world of Islam, patriarchy that it is, finds the west so vile. The two civilisations are mirror images of each other. The only difference is that the West maintains the pretense that both genders are equal before the law. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Why can't people see it . . .
I'm in CA so the the law is a little different. Nonetheless, in the short time that I dabbled in family law as an attorney, more than one woman (either my client or opposing party) used false accusations of abuse just to obtain more custody. In CA, the less custody you have, the more child support you have to pay. Therefore, it is to the woman's advantage to say anything she can in order to get MORE custody time, because that equals MORE MONEY.

My Godmother was horribly abused, as were her children. That was back in the 60s, when the cops wouldn't come out to the house because they were afraid and few courts would have helped out. So I understand first hand "domestic violence". But I also know that liberals allow women to abuse the system to shamefully that some innocent men have to have "monitored" visitation with their children.

Let's face the facts: domestic violence exists and we need to protect the helpless from it. AND people abuse the system and we need to face that fact and adjust the system so that abuse is harder to do so that the REAL victims can be helped and the INNOCENT (both men women and children) can be protected.

Why do both sides always fight over such issues, when the solution is non-partisan and helps everybody?

sophia
why do you want to treat Phyllis like she were a man?

ladykrystyna
"so that the REAL victims can be helped and the INNOCENT (both men women and children) can be protected."

Wow... what a radical concept... equal protection under the law. Did you think that up all on your own?

(excuse the sarcasm... but I get angry because the US has abandoned the concept of equality, and works full time on political preferences. I agree with you Krystyna.)

The communist party:
led by Ted, Harry, Hillary, Joe & etc have a group of their ilk who spend all their time figuring ways to buy the votes of any special interest group.
This Bill is intended to increase their "hold" on the most ignorant segment of our society(radical moronic women).

pandm
I wish the decent majority of women would stand up to this crap. I fear many decent women are seduced by the appearance they are getting something for free, and do not realize everybody is worse off because of this feminist stuff.

The real problem...........
with the family court system within the United States is that the system is currently run by LGBT legal and medical professionals engaged in rampant misandry. Since the revision of the ALIMPC in 1955 based on the fraudulent and fallacious research of Evelyn Hooker and Alfred Kinsey and subsequent revision of the APA's codes of conduct, wherein neurotic women are not to be addressed as self-defeating, sadistic, periluteal phasic, and borderline psychotic, even though they are, children have been knowingly placed in borderline caretaker environments, regardless of the socioeconic status of the primary caretaker. The new venue for promoting borderline caretaker environments for children is gay marriage, wherein neurotic legal and medical professionals attempting to "normalize" neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias, are knowlingly placing children in these environments as well. This unethical, if not antisocial behavior, will not cease until either plaintiff or respondent is willing to out the LGBT officers of the court, including the jurist, for the best interests of the child.

oh please yourself, sophia...
LOL! Yassum, Miz Sophie! All us Y chromosome abberants really do just love being crapped on by the US legal system any time our wimmen decide they wanna do somethin different.

It's interesting that you mimic the same sort of bigoted rant that you used to hear from segregationists a couple of generations ago.

I wouldn't object so much except that feminists have, over the years, got the laws written to where married women get to realise their potential with me and my gender underwriting the costs, or, failing that, getting the gov't to pick up the ticket. American society has pretty much gone septic in that regard.

Folks like you don't get it because you never get worked over in a family law court, something that happens to men foolish enough to marry in this society on a continuous basis. Like every American feminist I've ever run into you give lip service to equality but are always about privilege at the end of the day.

sophia
that is a well reasoned argument.

(sarcasm)

DHulme
Do you have any links to articles on this? I am suspicious of the LGBT activists, but your commentary seems a littl far out.

Schlafly is the clarion voice
No sane person condones domestic violence. What Schlafly has is the courage to reveal the damage being perpetrated upon our communities by summary removal of fathers in parenting their children. Thankly, she will not need to do it for very long because at the rate of increase we are seeing in juvenile homicides, (a scenario no one can live with), what will become clear very quickly is that state and local governments do not have enough resources to assign a juvenile detention and a probation officer for every child with an absent father.
Legally presumptive, equally shared parenting is the only workable solution to this growing problem. We are way past the point where encouraging couples to stay married can work.
Those who believe they can control the domestic situation by increased enforcement of drama queen 911 incident calls are adulterating the resources for the bona fide dangerous situations while increasing the likelyhood that no natural disciplining force will be present when these children mature into adults without conscience.
Tony Gottlieb
http://www.tndads.org

puleeeeeze....
"Since there are some abuses within the system..."

Oh puleeeeze! The whole family law system in the US is a human rights abuse, however much it pretends not to be.

"Women's" Issues
"The problem with you, Phyllis is that you see any woman who is concerned about women's issues as God-hating, communist, baby-killing, monsters."

The problem with you, Touj, is that you see the feminist agenda as "women's issues" rather than the radical ideology that it is. Most women only wanted domestic violence to be taken seriously. They had no intention of depriving men of their individual rights. They don't buy in to the idea that there are no innate differences between men and women and they don't view all men as their enemy.

The 1970s passed a long time ago Touj.

Phyllis Schlafly Where's the beef?
Although an article with an impressive set of accusations about "Radical Feminists" by which she means all Feminists, Phyllis Schlafly seem incapable of actually demonstrating one singe fact.

Women's battery is a problem, but men are helped by these organizations as well.

Feminism does not wish to propagate gender neutrality... Unless under the banner of gender neutrality you mean that women should be told not to write articles or express their opinions on the internet but should defer to men's opinions and while they are at it give up their vote, their job, their right to property.

In fact why not give up their right to humanity.

Only a hundred and fifty years ago, Phyllis Schlafly, would have been the property of her husband.

Instead of writing an article where we criticize those who would ask the government for funding to help battered women. Lets be daring.

Write and article in which we propose that not only should we not fund helping battered women, but let us take citizen ship rights themselves away.

That is a Conservative position.

Johnny P and sophia
Johnny P: Thanks for your sarcasm! You are absolutely right. There is no more equality - only preferential treatment.

Sophia: This is why eventually modern feminism will fall. As someone already said, what a reasoned argument! NOT! Since there are abuses in the system, something needs to be done to be sure that the accused (and mind you, you liberals are usually ALL about the accused) gets due process and the REAL victims are protected. That his (or her) children are not taken away from him )or her) on the whims of some nut.

The funny thing is, I believe this to be true for both genders. Restraining Orders and Child Custody should not be decided on a whim. The fact is, even children have been known to abuse the system because the system lets them. I know of one mother who temporarily lost custody of her child because the brat dared say that his mother beat him. She didn't; they had an argument before school and he was still crying when he got to school and told the teacher that his mother hit him. Being a dutiful teacher she called Child Protective Services, and well, there you go.

On the other hand, there are plently of other children out there that ARE abused and not saved by the same group of incompetent people.

So, yes, the system is screwed up and needs to be fixed for the benefit of the true victims. Because when people cry "wolf" long enough, everyone will turn a deaf ear and no one will be saved.

So, give that a little thinking before you come back with another one of your witty posts.

Sophia and Uber
Sophia: you must be a troll. 'Nuff said to you.

Uber: You are right "gender neutrality" is a dangerous phrase for you liberals. In the context of this article, it SHOULD mean that no matter who does the accusing, the accused should be allowed due process and the children shouldn't be taken away on a whim. It's happened before and it keeps happening.

Or don't you liberals care about the ACCUSED. Oh, that's right, only if they are a minority, right?

No government funding should be given to help a law that takes children away from their fathers based on a whim. That is, I believe, at least one of the points of the article.

uber
"Women's battery is a problem, but men are helped by these organizations as well."

I think that is incorrect. The vast majority of services are designed for women only. The VAMA is mostly administered by feminists. The feminists direct indoctrination of the system to favor women.

Conduct a test for yourself… call your county social services office and tell them you suspect a male friend of yours has a wife who threatens and belittles him, and throws things at him. Tell social services that you think the wife controls the family budget thus he has no resources to escape. Then ask if they have, or know of, any services and shelters available to him.

I am pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

To Sophia
Yeah, how dare a conservative man allow his wife to voice her opinions, without let or hindrance, in a public forum?
The very concept is almost... liberal!

uber
I do not know what the conservative position is… but I know what mine is…

If we are going to hold equality up as an ideal standard, then we should work for equality of benefits and detriments.

We are not moving in the direction of equality when one special interest group gets to pick and choose their benefits and obligations. Rules should be written so you can turn the tables and both parties will still be happy. We clearly do not have that today.

When I see feminists protesting lopsided results from the family courts I will start taking them seriously.

When I see feminists demand a balance in occupational fatalities (93% male), I will start taking them seriously.

When I see feminists demand equal sentencing in criminal courts, I will start taking them seriously.

When I see feminists demand a balance in military casualties (98% male), I will start taking them seriously.

When I see feminists demand prosecution for false accusers of rape, I will start talking them seriously.

The list goes on and on.


Sophia
I think you have a good idea.--A breeding system like "cultivating" veal.
We then,-- could select the best--AND eliminate all liberals.

Women will vote for a woman because she is a woman--or-- a man because they think he is sexy. To heck with the issues.

To uber
"Only a hundred and fifty years ago, Phyllis Schlafly, would have been the property of her husband."

And who made the change? Not the women, who might agitate but who had no effective political clout.
Men did that, because many or most were coming to recognize that women's issues needed redress.

The fact is that groups composed largely of men (largely of white men, I might add) have effected all the major changes in civil rights and civil liberties law. I would not wish to deny or diminish the very great contributions made my other groups or individuals... but if Da Man *truly* was committed to keepin' ya down, he had the political power to do so. Even Da Man's belated willingness to *share* that political power (by granting the right to vote to women, non-propertyholders, and minorities)depended primarily on his own higher sentiments, not any threat or coercion from other groups.

Reading American history is fun *and* educational!

To JohnnyP
For reasons of sentiment AND of military effectiveness, I would not wish the see 50% female casualties.
I hate seeing women suffering, even more than I hate seeing men suffering. Sexist? Fine.

On military effectiveness -- our nation does NOT view men and women in the same light. Had half of our current casualty list been female, I suspect that public pressure to end this campaign in Iraq would have trebled. I am an NCO, not a policy maker, but I suspect the ban on females in combat MOS's is partly with an eye to that very factor.

My opinions are my own and do not represent Army policy, nor the views of any group within the Army.

On the other hand
I'd be pleasantly amazed if feminists were to demand inclusion of females in the draft registration. 'Equal rights, equal responsibilities' you know.

Of course, it'll never happen since feminists don't *truly* believe women the equal of men. Men are mere throwaways, quite suitable for sending to war. Women are much too worthwhile.

I, too, think women much too valuable to use for cannon fodder. I just come by that conclusion from a different philosophy!

Tallil2long
I was also an NCO in the Army.

I do not have the answers... but I do see a lot of hypocrisy and contradictions when it comes to women in the military.

Some random thoughts.

-What did people say as blacks were taken out of the mess tent and put in integrated combat units?

-Should women be promoted at the same rate as men, even though they have much safer jobs? I have seen some DOD statistics and female promotions are surging in the middle senior ranks while their enlistments are collapsing (this is at a greater rate than males in both instances).

-Should society acknowledge that males should retain some traditional privileges because we need them to do the dirty dangerous work?

-Does the ideal of equality warrant the bloody mess of working toward 50% casualty statistics? We sent armed military personnel into the south ready for combat against state governments back in the '60s over principle. Would civil rights be deemed unemportant if bloodshed occured?

These are not questions for you and me to answer… they must be answered by women. They need to pick a role and take what comes with it… no more picking and choosing (that is one of my main points and I am pretty consistent with it).

sophia
"Why don't we work on getting the fatality rate down in general, huh?"

-Lower is good. Lower and balanced is better.

"Let women in combat positions and that number will change...What is the percentage of women in the military anyway?"

-Something like 12% or 13%. The enlistment number collapesed for females in 2003 when we went to Iraq... so I assume the percentage of women will be falling.

Please keep in mind there is a large cadre of influential feminists working for preference, not equality. I have run across feminist who unashamedly say men deserve the short end of the stick. This clearly tells me equality is not part of the agenda.

Interesting story....
A few years ago I read a book on the Titanic and the author claimed the sinking of the Titanic actually set the women's rights movement back 10-12 years. If you know the history and timeline of this movement, and the "women and children first" tradition on a sinking ship, you can see the conflict.

When the Titanic went down, should it have been "every man (so to speak) for himself"?
As JohnnyP pointed out, women need to pick the role they want and take what comes with it....

Titanic
I saw some stats on the Titanic casualties.

The highest ratio of deaths was for adult males

The next highest ratio of deaths was for children. This ratio was surprisingly high.

The lowest ratio of deaths (which was really small) was for adult females.

To Johnnyp
"What did people say as blacks were taken out of the mess tent and put in integrated combat units?"

Probably nothing much good. But the practice was generally accepted in the Army years before it was accepted in civilian society.

"Should women be promoted at the same rate as men, even though they have much safer jobs?"

First, the promotion rates of females should only be compared with those of men who share the same 'safer job' MOS.
Second, if anyone wants more info on the Army's Equal Opportunity policies:

http://www.armyreenlistment.com/ar600_20_EO.pdf

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/p600_26.pdf

"Should society acknowledge that males should retain some traditional privileges because we need them to do the dirty dangerous work?"

No. I do the dangerous and dirty work for my family because it is my duty, and I need no special privileges for doing my duty. It's part of being a man.

"Does the ideal of equality warrant the bloody mess of working toward 50% casualty statistics?"

No. For one thing, equal casualties do not automatically mean equal involvement. God forbid, but one random rocket hit on a female billet would go far toward evening out the statistics without a policy change at all. Second, in my opinion a significantly higher female casualty rate would undermine civilian morale and thus mission effectiveness. Mind, these are my PERSONAL opinions!

"These are not questions for you and me to answer… "

Darn, I wish you'd said that first! I am a very sequential person...


To Johnnyp
I believe the ratio of deaths among children was largely due to their relative inability to shrug off the killing cold to be found even on the lifeboats.

To sophia
Shrewd question. Probably not too good.

by the numbers...
"What was the ratio for First Class vs. Steerage?"

Here ya go...

http://www.anesi.com/titanic4.gif

Domestic Violence in North Carolina
I am an attorney in NC and see first hand the abuse of the domestic violence statutes. Domestic Violence Protective orders are issued like candy Ex Parte by judges to pretty much whoever asks for them which typically grant exclsive use of the parties' residence for at least ten days, immediately makes it illegal for the Defendant to possess a gun of any sort, generally offers an initial grant of custody of children, among many other things. Although a hearing must be held within at lease 10 days of the issuance of the order, what happens in a significant number of cases, is the Complainant strips the house of all belongings, whether or not they are hers or his and the be time, he gets his day in court, he has been significantly damaged.

Further, all it takes to get an Assault on a Female is to appear before a magistrate and swear what you are telling him is true. As, I have never, seen a purjury prosecution when it turns out what the alleged victim says is not true, there is an incentive to lie. Once the Defendant is served with the warrant he must serve at least 48 hours in jail, unless a District Court Judge is present to set bond as Magistrates are not allowed to set bonds in AOF cases for a least 48 hours, despite they set bonds in all other criminal cases. Finally, sometimes, when a man and a woman get into a fight assault warrants are issued agaisnt both parties. The man is charged with AOF, a Class A1 Misdemeancor with a maximum punishment of 150 days. The woman with Simple Assault, a Class 2 Misdemeanor, with a maximum punishment of 60 days but with mandatory probation unless she has a significant prior record.

So much for equal protection under the law.


Stats
Passengers Women/Children Men
First Class 94% 31%
Second Class 81% 10%
Third Class 47% 14%
Crew 87% 22%

Looks like even the "oppressed" women in steerage had a much better survival rate than the "evil rich men".

Ah, I see
The mortality among children resulted entirely from the fact that most of the children were to be found among the Third Class, who were disproportionately underrepresented on the lifeboats across the board.

How disgusting. There were only 79 of them total.

To sophia
What gets me are the ones who claim that all marital sex is the equivalent of rape (don't recall where I read that).
Where do they *find* these people? They are positively unhealthy.

To Icedog
Most of those men understood their duty. They didn't go about it in the most efficient manner -- ALL of the children SHOULD have been saved -- but they mostly can't be faulted for selfishness.

That is not to say that knowing their duty in this circumstance means that none of them practiced what we might legitimately regard as sexism in ordinary life, though.

sophia
Your descriptions of "feminism" doesn't mirror reality. "Feminist love men"...yeah right. I hapened to be in Houston during a feminist rally in the '90s...all I saw were rainbow stickers, "Billy has Two Mommies" coloring books and hundreds of women wearing comfortable shoes.

Tallil2long
I agree, most of these men probably didn't blink an eye at giving up their life in order to save the women.

My point (and I believe JohnnyP's point) is that women can't expect it both ways.....you can't say "men and women should all be treated exactly the same" when it benefits you, but try to play "helpless" or the "weaker sex" when that role may provide you a benefit.


To Icedog
I believe with the term 'feminist' Sophie here refers to women who *truly* have womens' best interests at heart, not those folks who have generally, and quite inappropriately, arrogated the term to themselves.

To Icedog
Well... not quite sure how to respond.

Women's relatively lesser muscular strength is certainly no justification for denial of equal pay for equal work, surely? Nor is it justification for unequal protection under law, nor denial of the franchise. I think women ought to have exactly the same legal rights as men. And that should NOT cost one a man's willingness to help one reach a heavy item on the top shelf at WalMart, either.

However, demanding *greater* legal rights than men, yes that is incompatible with the view of women as equally capable and intelligent as men.

the problem is...
...that most of the classic definitions such as liberal and the like have been hijacked by extremists. Think of John Kennedy being a liberal, or even Hubert Humphery and then try to map those guys onto today's "liberals".

I won't give feminist that characterisation since, if you read feminist literature was, from the get-go, written largely by some VERY dysfunctional people. That situation has just got worse over the years. :-(

Mind, if you want to create a more or less gender equal society, and Israel has more or less done that, fine and good. That's not what has been happening in the US, though, not even at the beginning in the late 1960's and early 1970's. While there were a lot of women in the movement who wanted gender equality, it was my observation that feminist leadership never paid gender equality more than a very perfunctory lip service.

Here is Jersey
whomever can retain the most expensive attorney (or team of attorneys) usually gets the desired results in court. "Feminists" here are primarily concerned with non-issues, various "awareness" luncheons, non-issues, if pink is being forced upon girls at birth, non-issues, task forces focused on non-issues, ribbon cutting ceremonies, non-issues, candle light vigils, etc...

My personal favorite is being forced to attend "trainings" ("SAVE THE DATE!!!" in my email) offered by some new Phd. in her 50's (whose husband supported her and paid for her education after the children have grown) on domestic violence/women's rights. Its painful to listen (under penalty of lost licensure credits) as these silly ditzes click about in their preposterous pumps while presenting information from 1968 as if its new.

Good night, all
It's almost 2:00AM so I reckon I should crash. I've enjoyed out conversation. Good day and God bless.

Johnnyp
Many articles and experience.........none of which you will find in general online searches.


Feminism Fights for Men's Rights
"When I see feminists protesting lopsided results from the family courts I will start taking them seriously."

Many feminists are, because at the heart of feminism is the belief that the outcome that matters is the outcome which is best for the child.

"When I see feminists demand a balance in occupational fatalities (93% male), I will start taking them seriously."

Feminists are almost exclusive in this category. No other movement has even bothered to question why work place fatalities should be so high. In fact it is only the introduction of women in workplaces dominated historically by men which has brought work place fatalities and work safety even to the table.

But it is not just the effect of women entering men's work places but also women at home. Feminists have been at the center of Labor movement since its' inception and as a result at the heart of the battle for men's right to have a safe workplace.

Think Mother Jones.

"When I see feminists demand equal sentencing in criminal courts, I will start taking them seriously."

Again Feminist have been at the fore front of the battle against unequal court sentencing. While conservatives have pushed a platform of guilty until proven innocent... It is Feminists who have seen how depleting black communities of males has put an undue hardship on African American women. It is feminists who have argues against tough sentences for victimless crimes.


Feminism Fights for Mens Rights II
"When I see feminists demand a balance in military casualties (98% male), I will start taking them seriously."

I mean this is almost ludicrous. Feminists have been at the forefront in demanding that women and men be treated equal in our armed forces. Conservatives have at the same time pushed a policy of exclusion of women. Feminist have simultaneously fought for means rights after they come back form the war with mental and physical injuries and against useless wars such as the one in Iraq.

Let me ask you this... How many conservatives here have written column condemning the practice of prorating bonuses for members of the military because they can't serve due to being wounded.

Now feminist have already spoken out against this atrocity. It's time Townhall does as well.

"When I see feminists demand prosecution for false accusers of rape, I will start talking them seriously."

Some feminists are.

The men that voted for women's rights
were feminists.

Are you trying...

to say "Feminists" are not really holding up their side of the bargain :)

Where does Hillary stand ? "The World may never know"


Uber
"It is Feminists who have seen how depleting black communities of males has put an undue hardship on African American women. It is feminists who have argues against tough sentences for victimless crimes"

It was the feminists and cohorts that claimed men weren't needed to raise healthy children in the 70's. Male supported and backed Gloria Steinem proudly proclaimed, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"- and for a while it got shoe leather. Of course, less wealthy and unsupported women broke their and their children's necks diving into the shallow end of hypocritical Steinem's dream pool...

Also, their is no "depletion" of black males in the black community, only mass abdication of responsibility.


The majority of these posts are just

ridiculous and obviously written by people who have little or NO understanding of what they’re pontificating about.

Uber, of course, being one of the biggest offenders, given his “thoughtful” post on Kevin McCullough’s column, “ 'No-Fault' = No Kids.”

The first question should be, where the hell was “NOW” and the other liberal “women’s groups” when Kathleen Willey needed their support? No where to be found!

Where the hell was “NOW” and the other liberal “women’s groups” when Anita Broddrick needed their support? No where to be found!

Where the hell was “NOW” and the other liberal “women’s groups” when Paula Jones needed their support? No where to be found!

As Schlafly accurately stated, “Radical feminists who would be the recipients of the act's awesome bureaucratic and money power are very selective about the kinds of violence they will target in 10 to 20 foreign countries.”

Yeah, and speaking of which, where the hell have these women’s groups been when they should have been speaking up for the Muslim women who have been stoned and raped and killed because they themselves had been raped?

There is nothing funny about domestic violence, smutty Sophia, so I’d suggest that you and everyone else who has had something truly stupid and ignorant to post, just shut your pie holes.


Anne
I imagine these liberated women were lamenting the Buddha statues that the Taliban destroyed, while totally ignoring the fact that no women were present during the destruction because it was against the law for a woman to be seen outside in a public forum or meeting. I should know: I was in college at the time, and our local chapter of NOW was trying to recruit women to protest the blowing up of those statues.

It's Juanita Brodderick, not Anita, BTW.

Anne
Loved your post! I KNOW where some NOW ladies are, I see some each day! They are starting to commence to begin to discuss a plan of action to address the multifaceted multicultural issues facing women in a patriarchical pluralistic homophobic society! There will be a gender-neutral, eco-friendly Observation of Winter gathering on December 19 to further explore those complexities!

I remember sitting across from one brutal old crone at a sexuality training who was nodding her head thoughtfully as she assessed Bill Clinton's affair with Monica, "Well, she was certainly 21- its all legal. I see no problem or harm.". Nevermind the power and position difference...

oldsocialworker
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!

Observation of Winter Gathering?? Is it me, or do they spend half their money trying to come up with fancy names?

"Multifaceted, multicultural issues...patriarchial pluralistic homophobic..."

Sounds like they should be shipped to an atoll in the Pacific and given the bare amenities, and let them see how far they get!!

feminists
where were the voice of the feminists when clinton was abusing an intern in the oval office. Where were the feminists voicing outrage over the hero the missus clinton running a warroom that sought to destroy the reputations of the women bubba molested. Selective outrage diminishes any position. When feminists start standing up for institutions such as marriage rather than telling men their importance in the breeding ritual is a few minutes of heavby breathing perhaps they will be taken more seriously. When the feminists take a stand against the destructive lifestyles that put many at risk for various std perhaps they will be taken more seriously. Successful relationships and sharing one's life with another is vastly superior than a life that calls for taking control of one's sexuality by the culture of hooking up. Perhaps when the feminists tyake this issue seriously and speak out against this practice they will be taken more seriously

YLG & socialworker: Thanks.


YLG: You’re right, Juanita. My bad. :-(

Many years ago, after my divorce, I obtained a “Protection From Abuse Order” after my attorney ex-husband left a message on my ans. Machine that I “should be f****g shot…

Later I got my Domestic Violence and Abuse Councilor certification from the Commonwealth of PA, and since I was a paralegal, among other things, I helped set up the Domestic Violence department in the DA’s office. Subsequently I also did a lot of public speaking on domestic violence.

Of course, after about three years I was totally burned out, and moved on to the IT industry, but I was, and still am totally amazed at the absolute ignorance and the flip, sarcastic view too many people have about domestic violence….

And, as I said above, the majority of the posts on this thread demonstrated that much better than I could begin to describe.

But, sadly, Biden (the man who speaks a million words to say absolutely nothing!) brings up a bill that will do nothing…. Absolutely NOTHING to solve the epidemic of domestic violence, but will put millions of dollars in the hands of those women’s groups who don’t give a spit about domestic violence.

Socialworker (not old!) you are right on. This is a disgrace, and minimizes the real problem. (But we’ve known for a long time what a fool Biden is.)

(Geeze, I could do a whole blog on domestic violence.)





oldsocialworker
Off topic:
Thanks, I think your advise is working...they are looking a little puzzled but have changed their behavior in their bewilderment. Haven't heard a *%^$# since. Thanks again

Ron
I remember the advice she gave you!

Glad to hear it's working. I'm headed into the teens next year, and I have taken her advice to you to heart.

Anne
The only reason Biden is trying to pass this is so he can have a resume. That's it!! And may be you should start a blog about it. Some people that have not experienced domestic violence, whether against them or through helping others who have, tend to say stupid things, Anne. A blog would be a great way for you to inform the ignorant!

YLG
I printed the post... I think I will frame it as a reminder...
Good luck in the teens...Very challenging!

YLG, Ron, Anne
YLG, I did take a little poetic license, the Observation of Winter thing is my brain child, but the "gender neutral" open discussion meetings have happened. "Gender neutral"- kind of an oxymoron!

Ron, excellent!!! Yeah, the kids won't trust the new interaction for a while, that's okay. Its an organic thing, grace is, it has to grow over time. Has there been anything you need to apologize to them for? I've made numerous apologies to my 15 year daughter over the years; that is like a balm to hurt soul, yours and theirs! I'm so pleased, thank you for updating me!

You know, Anne, I teach the girls I work with and my daughter how to physically defend themselves. I'm HUGE on the promotion of physical fitness and the swift implementation of physical defense when necessary. I find many girls have a tough time identifying abusive behaviors; many are so busy trying to be "accepting", "patient", "tolerant", and "open-minded". Ugh! Glad you are out there!

Ron, YLG, & Socialworker:

Okay Ron, I have no idea what you guys are talking about with regard to the advice Socialworker gave you... But, if it's "working" that's great!

Socialworker: Please change your handle! How about "SeasonedSocialWorker." "Old" does NOT do you justice.

Ron, you might want to keep an eye out for this.... I did a number of lectures in middle schools and high schools about "domestic violence." You have no idea how many young girls put up with intimidation and/or violence just so they won't lose a boyfriend. It's tragic and happens all too often. (Just general words of observation.)

Admittedly, there is "psycho-babble" but sometimes we're lucky enough to be given some really solid "psycho-expertise." Go with it! :-)






oldsocialworker
Actually, your poetic license isn't far off, is it? Why, oh WHY do they do the "gender-neutral" thing? Who are they kidding with this crap? Themselves??

YLG
When I was a kid (around 9-10 years old), I remember there were times when my friends and I would pretend to be speaking in another language to each other when we were in public places. It was fun, because it is childishly fun to appear to have knowledge others don't and are therefore special. I think this same spirit drives many in the soft sciences; the use of terms designed to lend an illusion of special knowledge and intelligence.

Anne
I don't mind "old". I have skull and cross bones warning labels on various objects in my office warning the kids of "Old lady music" on my CD case, "Old lady's chair" on a chair I like, "Old lady is in a bad mood today" (some days it hangs on my door!), "Old lady brought cookies today!", and so on. The kids love it!

for uber...
"When I see feminists demand prosecution for false accusers of rape, I will start talking them seriously."

Some feminists are.

Name one...

oldsocialworker
As an anthropologist who dealt with MANY in the liberal arts, I would have to wholeheartedly agree. Soft Science is a euphemism for "soft headed"!!

My kids like to do that, too. But I have gone a step further, and actually found Esperanto for them!! They think it's a hoot!

Wildwest
Give it up. Monica went to Bill's office late at night when she knew he was alone, raised her skirt, and twanged the thong of her underpants at him. This is not the behavior of a modest young girl. Of course there was a power differential between them---there is a power differential between ANY woman and the President of the United States. Representing Bill Clinton's diddling of that particular interne won't fly as rape or sexual abuse. All of the Starr testimony showed Lewinsky to be a consenting adult, in fact a pretty eager one (if you recall, that's what the cigar was all about).

Doesn't this Phyllis Schlafly have
ANYTHING better to do than sit around & think of ways to put down feminists?

Hey, "feminists" at the turn of the last century, organized, held meetings, lobbied & FINALLY got women the right to vote in 1920. Show some FREAKING GRATITUTE to your feminists sisters Phyllis, you ungrateful whining sad excuse for a woman. If you hate yourself & your gender SO MUCH that you have to put down the activists who helped GET YOU the VOTE & gave you the rights & freedoms & broke down the barriers..... just take your brand of smear politics ELSEWHERE Phyllis. You are the THORN on the frigging rose! I'm glad you have only a limited number of years left with us.

R.I.P.

battered women
Yuk.

Skip the breading. I like em plain with a splash of vinegar and water.

Lilly

"Give it up. Monica went to Bill's office late at night when she knew he was alone, raised her skirt, and twanged the thong of her underpants at him "

Poor guy. What else was he supposed to do but insert a cigar into her vagina and decorate a dress with semen? Why bother setting the younger generation (by 25 or so years) straight when you can have an orgasm! Why bother honoring marital vows when underpants have been twanged at you?

How does an INTERN creep up upon an unsuspecting PRESIDENT of the United States when she knows he is going to be alone late at night IN THE OVAL OFFICE!? Is a president ever alone? No, of course not.

Lilly- you are a protected and provided for woman who can,no doubt, well afford your smug stupidity. A fair teacher's pension plus your husband's ample support. Your sort are all the same. Actually, I'm jealous; I wish I was well supported and clueless. Life would be MUCH easier.

Will
You confuse sufferagettes with feminists. They are entirely different animals. Onde group had real battles, the other avoids the real battles.

Go have some more Kool Aid- you deserve it.


Ask you local police
Fortunately, there are now new laws in many states. Make the 911 call, and they will come. Someone will go to jail. It is NOT always the. man.

I give money,time and other donations to "Women in Distress".
They are a fine organisation, but I would prefer it was Men and Women in Distress!

Hint for frequent travellers: the soaps,shampoos, lotions,etc. provided by hotels are included in t he room cost. Sweep them into baggies and donate them. They are gratefully accepted!

lilly
you again point out why you are nothing more than a delusional ,old aged hippie. Clinton was supposed to be an adult. He had signed rules that forebadfe this type of actrivity throughout the govt. When a boss takes sexual liberties with an employee that is a predatory act. This is the thing that feminists have supposidly been fighting against. Bosses whi use their positions of authority to get sexual favors from uinderlings who submit rather than risk losing their jobs. You are indeed creepy. Suggesting that poor unsuspecting bubba was assaulted by a young girl only exists in your pathetic world. The president was expected to act the adult role. If she was making unwanted advances, his security detail was nearby and could have come to his rescue. That he later told her that she was threatening the president if she went public with her accusations shows he was complicit. No boss has the right to expect and to recieve sexual favors from an underling. You are indeed a very sick and disturbed individual to blame a young woman and not cast the blame where it belongs, on bubba,a perpetual adolescent, a serial womanizer, who wacko libs like you elected, knowing the lowlife he truly was. That you continue to admire him shows how truly pathetic you are. His behavior in the oval office makes should make him a pariah but in your world he remains your hero. Hypocrisy, thy name is lilly

lilly
Sorry, your post about consensual adults doesn't wash. In any other workplace this would be beyond sexual harrassment. And by the way, she didn't lift her skirt, she pulled down her pants to show him her thong.

She admitted to it in the HBO special, "Monica in Black and White".

By the way
Please Google this one!

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2...

To lilly
"Give it up. Monica went to Bill's office late at night when she knew he was alone, raised her skirt, and twanged the thong of her underpants at him. This is not the behavior of a modest young girl."

It doesn't matter if one of my female soldiers approaches me in such a fashion: as a LEADER and as a HUSBAND it is my duty to send her out the door. Immediately.

Would you make excuses for men who deny their duty, abandon their responsibilities, and refuse to exercise self-control? Encouraging men to behave in such fashions is NOT to the benefit of American women.

Anne: "shut your pie holes"
"Yeah, and speaking of which, where the hell have these women’s groups been when they should have been speaking up for the Muslim women who have been stoned and raped and killed because they themselves had been raped?"

Think RAWA

pandm
So true! That's why 18 to 25 yr. old females will line up like stupid sheep to vote for Hillary. Issues smissues be d@med!


uber
"Many feminists are, because at the heart of feminism is the belief that the outcome that matters is the outcome which is best for the child."

Best interest of the child has been used as a red herring for decades. From my limited experience, women disproportionately get the children and the house, even when the father seems to be the best parent. I have not studied this in detail, but I am comfortable with my opinion. Am I wrong, are you wrong? I do not know.

“Feminists are almost exclusive in this category. No other movement has even bothered to question why work place fatalities should be so high. In fact it is only the introduction of women in workplaces dominated historically by men which has brought work place fatalities and work safety even to the table.

But it is not just the effect of women entering men's work places but also women at home. Feminists have been at the center of Labor movement since its' inception and as a result at the heart of the battle for men's right to have a safe workplace.

Think Mother Jones.”

I seriously doubt women in the workforce drove safety. My opinion is that the higher value of workers, and scarcity of workers were the driving force.

“Again Feminist have been at the fore front of the battle against unequal court sentencing. While conservatives have pushed a platform of guilty until proven innocent... It is Feminists who have seen how depleting black communities of males has put an undue hardship on African American women. It is feminists who have argues against tough sentences for victimless crimes.”

Again, I do not see anything from my reading or experience that supports your position. You are painting feminists as selfless honorable people. My opinion is that they are a special interest group and should be trusted to do the right thing as Archers Daniel Midland Corp.




Uber II
“I mean this is almost ludicrous. Feminists have been at the forefront in demanding that women and men be treated equal in our armed forces. Conservatives have at the same time pushed a policy of exclusion of women. Feminist have simultaneously fought for means rights after they come back form the war with mental and physical injuries and against useless wars such as the one in Iraq.”

My view is that feminists and women seem to be happy having the safe and cool jobs. After females could become pilots and doctors, much of the goals were met. In support of equality I want to see women digging foxholes in 110F heat. A large number of male casualties in Iraq happened while driving in a vehicle. Females can sit in a vehicle and get blown up just as good as a man.

“Some feminists are.”
So only some feminists are honorable and believe in equal protection?

Tallil2long (thanks for the debate)
“I hate seeing women suffering, even more than I hate seeing men suffering. Sexist? Fine. “

That opinion is fine, as long as society sees sexism as being okay or natural.

“I believe the ratio of deaths among children was largely due to their relative inability to shrug off the killing cold to be found even on the lifeboats.”

That sounds reasonable… but I still find it interesting that females had a WAY LOW fatality rate.

“That is not to say that knowing their duty in this circumstance means that none of them practiced what we might legitimately regard as sexism in ordinary life, though.”

Again… if sexism is okay, then society should support it.

“First, the promotion rates of females should only be compared with those of men who share the same 'safer job' MOS.”

This is a self fulfilling thing. If women are not expected to take the shitty jobs that can’t be held against them. Furthermore, I have not been able to find stats on MOS like for like promotions. My intuition tells me the military institutions are falling all over themselves to promote women. And finally, to translate your statement to the 1950s… you cannot compare the jobs of whiles and blacks because the have different places in society. You should compare blacks to janitors and whites to college graduates.

“No. I do the dangerous and dirty work for my family because it is my duty, and I need no special privileges for doing my duty. It's part of being a man.”

That is cool… so lets admit that sexism is okay, and stop saying it is not.

“…. Second, in my opinion a significantly higher female casualty rate would undermine civilian morale and thus mission effectiveness. Mind, these are my PERSONAL opinions!”

Maybe society needs to be pushed into the 21st century. Society needs to choose and stop splitting the baby.

DHulme
please elaborate

katy the mean old lady
“Fortunately, there are now new laws in many states. Make the 911 call, and they will come. Someone will go to jail. It is NOT always the. man.”

From what I have read, that is true in SOME jurisdictions. There are still many jurisdictions that lean to the presumption the man is guilty.

icedog
My point (and I believe JohnnyP's point) is that women can't expect it both ways.....you can't say "men and women should all be treated exactly the same" when it benefits you, but try to play "helpless" or the "weaker sex" when that role may provide you a benefit.

EXACTLY. Hypocracy and flipflopping drive me CRAZY.

A really good test for a social rule or standard (and business contracts) is evaluating it by turning the tables. If both parties are still happy, then you know you have a good rule or contract.

will
"ANYTHING better to do than sit around & think of ways to put down feminists?"

Sounds like one of the most productive things to do is rail against selfish hypocritial special interstes.

Feminism is a bigger scourge than the Arian Nation or the Black Panthers because it is so insidious and cloaked in a deceiving costume.

Men as second class citizens
Texas recently passed an amendment to our state constitution that would deny bail to those accused of "domestic violence". I say accused, because we've always had laws regarding grating bail to any violent criminal who presented possible further threat. Plain and simple this change provides divorce attorneys the weapon of mass destruction they've always sought. By allowing one spouse to arbitrarily remove the other spouse (and here's the important word, "parent") from the family home, denying them access to the financial resources necessary to defend themselves (and their children), by threatening the loss of a job, a career, public standing, and a blot on their lives that will follow them to the grave, divorce lawyers and Judges can expedite settlement, discard the "pest" parts of fatherhood, and focus on the males role as provider in absentia. Research (at least that done thus far) indicates that the safest place for a child, outside the traditional home (both biological parents in the household), including state custody, is in the custody of their single or divorced father. Indeed, most proven cases of child abuse or neglect are in single or divorced female headed households. Texas leads the nation in the number of children killed, injured, abused or neglected while in the custody of their mothers, a trend that is duplicated throughout all 50 states. I personally do not know any "bad fathers", but that may simply be the result of my exercise of free will in whom I associate with. Unfortunately, being a single male; I do know dozens of "bad mothers", and sadly, I'm aware of even more children who would have benefited immeasurably from exposure to a loving relationship with their own biological father. Next time you find yourself wondering "what's wrong with that kid", you need look no farther than who raised them.

Legalize
Sophia provides an insightful point. Legalize! Obviously, S.B. 2279 will encourage a flood of "immigrants" all seeking to "trade up" from their existing "domestic environment" through asylum. This President and the Senate all felt the best course for our egregious illegal immigrant problem was simply to "legalize" all those who sought to take advantage or America's largess. It now seems despicable and hypocritical to not likewise legalize domestic violence (herein defined as being critical of one's spouse, perhaps raising your voice, or ,,,,,,,). It's so widespread, and we have no hope of ever "rounding up all the perpetrators, it would be misguided (and gender discriminatory) to squander any tax payer dollars on simply trying to rein in this so-called domestic violence.

Johnnyp: feminism
"So only some feminists are honorable and believe in equal protection?"

Yes Jonny "some" are NOT interested equal protection. Most are, but some are not. Lets be clear, feminism is primarily interested in women's rights. However, because women are humans, and because women by and far are heterosexual, and bare sons, women's rights are irreconcilably tied to men's rights.

Feminism is a humanist movement.

I am sorry that you are not well versed in a wide subsection of Feminist literature.

I am sorry that you have not spent the time to understand Feminism.

I am sorry that you have not delved into the connections between workplace organizing and feminism

That you have not delved into the connections between feminism and the emancipation struggle.

Can you even tell me the difference between a "radical feminist," and "identity feminist," an "Anarcha-Feminist," a "liberal Feminist," or a "I feminist" ?

Probably most here don't know there was so much divergence.

To most here Feminism is just a dirty word you use to degree your adversaries, not a word used to define and understand a human rights movement.

Just for the record I have good reason to not consider myself a male feminist.
However I am not going to be reflexive tool. I will understand and defender those aspects of every movement which deserve defending.

Do you think I would not defend conservative thought to a liberal feminist?

Of course I would if I believed that conservatism was being wrongly maligned.

Certainly feminism as it's problems.... But the issues raised in this discussion are laughable... In that they are exactly the issues for which feminism should be lauded in it's unwavering dedication to these causes.

edweirdness
This is one of the stupidest laws ever erected in our state!! I have NEVER understood the defense of women!! Don't men realize that we are NOT the delicate, weaker sex??!!

Do you remember the case in Houston where a couple (about 17, not married) was pregnant, and she wanted an abortion (at 20-odd weeks) and he wanted the baby? She convinced him to jump on her abdomen, and she aborted the baby, but because they had to go to the hospital, THE MAN was charged, tried,and convicted of 2nd degree murder, and THE WOMAN got accolades, sympathy, and financial aid!!!!

I ask you, where is the justice in THAT??!! This stupid law is on its way to being a way to prevent men from exercising any rights whatsoever. What a bunch of judicial morons...

Prime Opportunity for the Left
Who here is in favor of wife-beating? Anyone?

Then how could any legislator in good conscience vote against a bill design to prevent wife-beating? Imagine how his opponents would use his vote against such a law, no matter how insanely written.

I think that this is why the left chooses issues like "domestic violence", "homelessness", "the environment", and "protecting children" to advance their agenda. It allows them to increase the power of government without the usual level of scrutiny.

Uber
"Feminism is a humanist movement"-Uber

That is why conservatives oppose it, in all of its bizarre mutations. I do not know all the strains of the flu, but I know that I don't want to catch any of them.

Humanism is the antithesis of conservatism. Conservatives believe in an objective morality and free-will. We do not believe that humans are inherently good, only doing evil if we were damaged by society. We believe in personal responsibility and shun collectivism.

Humanism is the antithesis of Christianity. Christ stated overtly that the hearts of men are "evil", and that the only way to salvation is through Him. He did not preach "Heaven on Earth", but rather storing your treasure in Heaven rather than Earth. Yes, He also told us to be nice to each other, just as Humanists do, but the similarity ends there.

uber
Now we are getting to the root of the debate.

I assume you are well meaning. I also see that you refer to branches of theory and camps of doctrine. I however am looking at the world around me. The laws I read about. I see the mainstream media and other organizations propagandizing “men evil and woman universal victim”. I see the contradictions and hypocrisy.

I see regular women sitting back and collecting the crumbs of benefit that the radicals are casting off. I do not see regular women shutting down the ridiculous claims and propaganda. If the decent women in the country all picked up the phone to call Joe Biden’s office to say “Violence against women? What about men”? Some of these laws would die, and politicians would realize there is no special interest group for them to pander to… only honorable Americans seeking fairness and equality.

I see girlfriend’s flip-flopping and picking and choosing. I see them claiming victim status and then power status in the same breath.

I see my guy friends kicked out of their houses and mothers running to another state to interfere with the father child relationship.

I see wives saying “your money is our money and my money is my money”.

I see government funding of medical research going disproportionately to female medicine. I also see women simultaneously claiming that females are disadvantaged in research.

When I mention that men are 93% of occupational fatalities, it is not uncommon for a woman to reply “well… what do you expect, men are careless (or stupid, or…).

I see the news saying things like “five people were killed in an accident and two of the victims are women”. This implies the other three are generic humanoids that do not matter. This reminds me of when news casters would say “a black man robed a bank”.

Welcome to the new era of Jim Crow.

My 2 cents
The only thing that allows feminist bleating of equality, etc, is the thin veneer of civilization. Notice that where that is missing (i.e. muslim countries) women are decidely NOT equal.

Here in the USA, if the feces hit the fan tomorrow and we are bombed or poisoned back into barbarism, most all surviving women would hitch their wagon to a strong man. One who can provide security. Tho I have no doubt that some may try to emulate the Amazon fable I would not give their long term survival very good odds.

Now let the flames begin.

Johnnyp: feminism
Your objections to feminism in short is the objection that they advocate for liberty and that people use that opportunity to not be nice people and to exploit any advantage they have.

Certainly men are no different.

I do not claim and few feminists claim that their struggle is about men's rights and men's liberty. Clearly if we as men feel exploited, we have an obligation to push for equality.

In essence you are blaming feminism for espousing liberty. Perhaps we should hate the Founding fathers with the same vengeance for liberating us from Monarchy and serfdom.

I am sorry that you have had bad experiences with women... But there are plenty of women who can give you just as horrible horror stories about men...
Relationships are tricky.... Feminism is impotent for women...

I think we all want our daughters adn sisters to have the rights and the opportunities that we and our son's and father's had.

Who else is fighting for that?





marxbrothers: humanism
"Humanism is the antithesis of conservatism."

No it is not.

"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality.[1][2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

i.e. think "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Are those not conservative values?

uber
"In essence you are blaming feminism for espousing liberty. Perhaps we should hate the Founding fathers with the same vengeance for liberating us from Monarchy and serfdom."

Now that is getting a little thick.

To restate - I object to feminism because in reality it is a movement for preferences and political influence.

"I am sorry that you have had bad experiences with women... But there are plenty of women who can give you just as horrible horror stories about men...
Relationships are tricky.... Feminism is impotent for women..."

I have had disappointing relationships with women. Some of the guys I know have had devastating experiences in marriages with flip-flopping exploitive wives who in the end went to the court and pleaded like damsels in distress.

The comment about bad men… I cannot comment a great deal on that because all the guys I know well are decent and do their duty. I am sure there are some nasty guys out there. And the funny thing is that they are usually obviously dangerous bets, but they never have a hard time finding a date (go figure).

I think we wore this out.

Best wishes… take care…



workin4wages
sorry, but that is not very controversial

Johnnyp: preferences and influence
"To restate - I object to feminism because in reality it is a movement for preferences and political influence."

Show me a movement that is not for "preferences and political influence."

uber
we have gone around a circle.

I stated feminism is not about equality, it is about preferences and political influence. You debated those points saying the feminism is for equality and goodness. Then I restate that feminism is about preferences and political influence, and you say that is okay because that is what movements do. So do you agree with me now?




Will pro-abortionists be exempt?
Back in the early nineties, sexual harassment was the big issue among feminists. Men who questioned their motives were told they "just didn't get it."

A few years later, Bill Clinton was accused of sexual harassment, and feminists suddenly decided the issue wasn't so important after all. Evidently, being pro-abortion covers a multitude of sins.

I suspect radical feminists will be just as selective in their outrage about violence against women.

Johnnyp: equality is a preference
"equality and goodness" are political preferences.

uber
laugh.

That is progress... just define words to make the world better.

Let me have a try at it.

Exploitation = benevolence

Slave master = guardian

Slave = ward

Mass Murder = Ethic Cleansing

Wow… I feel better now.

words
Political preference = using government to take something away from someone else, or using government force to bring about things one wants and others do not.

Equality = justice, fairness, impartiality.

International Violence Against Women Act
International Violence Against Women Act...by Biden? What a joke!!! One thing abundantly clear as the nose on most people's faces is...the neo-commie, demmie-liberal, marxist-millionaires, et al, could care less about International Violence Against Women. These wonderful(HAH), caring(HAH), tolerant(HAH), supposedly diverse people could care less that the women in the vast majority of Muslim countries are beaten, raped, tortured, sexually mutilated, enslaved every single day of the year. As always, their rhetoric and actions do not equate.

Johnnyp: Political preference
A "Political preference" is a preferences of politics. You are a conservative. Conservatism is a political preference.

Now the outcome of political preferences may mean that "government takes something away from someone else, or using government force to bring about things one wants and others do not."

But that act is not a political preference it's a political action.

And not all political actions take away, some actually ad to everyone.

Take gay marriage as an example. Enacting gay marriage takes nothing away from anyone, it just extends a right already given to heterosexuals.

Now it may go against your political preference to allow gays to marry, but it does not in any way keep you from marrying your self or from having you preference.

However when you deny gays the right to marry your political preference is stepping over the line from preferences in to action.

Now you may have used the wrong words when you said "political preference" or used this phrase euphemistically so often as to no longer understand its meaning but the words have meaning apart from each other and when conjoined they mean what I said they mean.

Feminism itself espouses political preferences. Some feminist have taken those preferences and made political actions. Some of those actions have had unintended consequences.

But like Bushes war in Iraq... Bush says he is in Iraq to make Iraqi's free. The war has made them less free. That in no way means that Bush wants that outcome. He may just be inept.


uber
"Bush says he is in Iraq to make Iraqi's free. The war has made them less free."

Do you really think Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein? Give me a break!

Black and White?
"the world is not black and white."

It's digital. Get with the times...

What they were saying
"-What did people say as blacks were taken out of the mess tent and put in integrated combat units?
"

They were asking, "Why the heck can't the nation that won WWII, fighting on two fronts, supplying all of our allies, beat a bunch of backward rice-eaters in a 3rd world craphole?"

And of course, they had their answer.

(read T. R. Ferenbach's book, "This Kind of War".
Social experimentation on the military is always a bad idea.)


seeking to gain political preference
I am not talking about political preference like a preference for color, or soft drink.

Maybe I am wrong, but when someone says political preference, they are referring to gaining preferential treatment in politics.

Geezzee

Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein
Yes.

Unfortunately the answer is yes.

Look at every metric

Personal risk of violence? Up compared to sadam.

Crime? Up

Terrorism? Up

Oil production? Down

Economy? Down

Women's rights? Down

On every single metric one can use. The lives of Iraqis are worse off today than under a totalitarian dictatorship.

Is that sad. Yes.

Do I which the US could guarantee a better life for Iraqis than they had under Saddam Hussein... Hell yes.

Open you eyes.

Iraq is a mess.

uber: You idiot! Do you have a point?


Do you EVER have a point?

Think RAWA ?



Womens Rights in Iraq
As one one Iraqi feminist put it. How can women in Iraq be free when there is a tyrant in every home.

And in the Lawlessness which is Iraq where religious militias run the streets women have less freedom than they did under Sadam, who despite all his horrendous crimes gave some modicum of protection of women rights.

Today they can be killed in the street for the crime of going to work.

At least under Sadam you only had to watch out that you didn't make Sadam mad.

Today if you are a women your familly can take you to the city gate and the elders can stone you to death for being raped, just like it says one should do in Deuteronomy.

yes Anne
The point is that RAWA is an Afghan Feminist Group which has been fighting for women rights for forty years.
You asked were are the feminists fighting for women's rights in the Islamic world. I showed you one.

There are plenty of others.

Feminism is not just a movement in the west. It is a world wide phenomena.

The most interesting feminist theory and important battles for womesn rights, I believe, are in the non western world.

uber
You are WOEFULLY blinded by your hatred of President Bush. I really feel sorry for you.

Johnnyp: 1984
"Maybe I am wrong, but when someone says political preference, they are referring to gaining preferential treatment in politics.

Geezzee"

I think your wrong.

That is a lot of double speak or think double think.

Why say "political preference" when you can say, "preferential treatment?"

Especially here.

Newspaper clipping
I have an old advertisement from 1989 that I keep in my old checkbook...

In the foreground is a color picture of a blonde supermodel, made up to the teeth, with bright, red lipstick, eyeshadow, high heels, expensive-looking fur-trimmed coat.

In the background was a black and white picture of a fat old woman from the early 1910s, hair a mess, plain dark dress with apron, no makeup, pained expression on her face, a basket of clothes under each arm.

The caption read: "in 1911, it wasn't a woman's opinion that carried a lot of weight."

The ad was for Virginia Slims.

1911 was still the era that believed "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."
And, looking at the two women with my eyes and not my Johnson, especially regarding social concerns and politics, the 1911 woman's opinion would carry far more weight than a modern day trollop.

I have seen what women have made of the vote we gave them... and we still won't admit we made a mistake...

I Love Bush
Ken you're blinded by your Loyalty and your dichotomous group think.

I don't hate Bush. I like Bush. I voted for Nader in both elections so that Bush would WIN. If it wasn't for Bush Socialism would never have taken hold in South America. Bush is an incompetent president. But I like his incompetence. He has done more to bring about the end American hegemony than any other president. What isn't there to like about that, if you like I are an Anarchist.

jdw: Emma Goldman on suffrage
Woman's demand for equal suffrage is based largely on the contention that woman must have the equal right in all affairs of society. No one could, possibly, refute that, if suffrage were a right. Alas, for the ignorance of the human mind, which can see a right in an imposition. Or is it not the most brutal imposition for one set of people to make laws that another set is coerced by force to obey? Yet woman clamors for that "golden opportunity" that has wrought so much misery in the world, and robbed man of his integrity and self-reliance; an imposition which has thoroughly corrupted the people, and made them absolute prey in the hands of unscrupulous politicians.

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/bl_eg_an9_woma n_suffrage.htm

Poor uber, another one who has real

problems comprehending....

I was referring to US womens' groups such as NOW who has yet to make a peep about women's rights, either here in the US or abroad.

Let me guess. You have a 3rd grade reading level. Right?








Thank you, uber
Your clean, lucid logic is refreshing.

Note to Johnnyp: Save any more additional posts on this subject. You are clearly over your head when you cannot glean superior logic from other posters.

Johhnyp says he objects to feminism because it's a movement for, among other things, "political influence". Johnnyp, what planet are you posting from exactly? OF COURSE political movements are for political influence you knucklehead! Only through influencing the political in one sort or another can you actually change LAWS, ameliorating equality.

I HATE Phyllis Schlafly. She is essentially a throwback to keeping women boxed up in a pre-1960s mentality. She is, all said, ANTI-equality. She should bow down & kiss the feet of the Susan B. Anthonys & Gloria Steinums, women who actually made a difference.

will
Thanks for the ad hominem statement it really bolsters your point.

So feminism is not about equality after all. I am satisfied that you admit it.

will
Only a difference, not a positive difference? That sounds like feminism to me.

Feminism:Anti-Men Anti-Black Anti-Family
The book "Women of the Klan – Racism and Gender in the 1920's"
by Kathleen M. Blee (University of California Press, 1992ISBN 0-520-07876-4 (ppb.)) documents extensively the direct lineage between Modern Feminism and the Women's Ku Klux Klan (WKKK).

It is frequently stated, and therefore commonly believed, that Elizabeth Cady Stanton and the Suffragettes were the source of the women's rights movement. "Women of the Klan" proves this to be untrue. Many of the Suffragettes, were also deeply involved in the WKKK until well after passage of the 19th amendment.

The WKKK became a very powerful controlling force both in the KKK as well as society itself. Women used various "informal networks" through churches, schools, neighborhoods, and various social groups. They formed "poison squads", which were used to spread rumors, create sexual fears about black men, initiate "selective shopping" boycotts, and pass political information around.

Lynchings of Black men were common in the Old South. Most of these were instigated in defense of "white womanhood". The author writes that the WKKK "dissolved a myriad of social, economic, and racial issues into powerful symbols of womanhood and sexual virtue". Lulu Markwell, a President of the WKKK wrote, "It is the duty of the American mother to stamp out vice and immorality." This overblown sexual imagery galvanized millions of American men to rise to the mindless protection of the purity of Protestant white woman. A Black man simply needed to be accused of rape, or of somehow spoiling white womanhoods sexual virtue and he would be hung. White men commited acts of evil in the name of evil White women.

Feminism: Anti (continued)
The KKK came to believe that womanhood represented "all that is best, and noblest, and highest in life", wherein "No race, or society, or country can rise higher than its womanhood". Sounds a lot like today's (and yesterday's) feminists.

The famous 1960's feminist mantra, "No longer will man say that in the hand of woman rests the necessity of rocking a cradle only. She has within her hand the power to rule the world", was actually published by the WKKK in Evansville, Indiana in the late 1880's.

America is living in a sickening point in history. America is suffocating in sexist policies which openly and unconstitutionally discriminate against a father's fundamental right to be in the family, to be a property owner, and to raise his children.

Margaret Sanger: Feminist Hate
Margaret Sanger (1883-1966) is the Founder of Planned Parenthood. An interesting overview of this gems political idealogy can be found here:

Margaret on infants:

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

Evil. Pure evil.

Margaret on immigrants, blacks, and the poor:

"immigrants and indigents:"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization.

Spoken like a true elitist.

Margaret on the extermination of blacks:

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon.

Spoken like a true racist.

Margaret on sterilization & racial purification:

Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech.

Spoken like a true Feminazi.

Margaret on the right of married couples to bear children:

"Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

Spoken like a true Marxist.

Margaret on the purpose of birth control:

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

Spoken like a true Feminazi.


Feminist Hate
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."

Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."

Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."

Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

"'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking d*ldo."

Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas
"(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"

Against Our Will p.6. - Susan Brownmiller

"We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable."

- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women

" How will the family unit be destroyed? …[T]he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare."

In "Female Liberation" - Roxanne Dunbarr

More Feminist Hate
"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."

Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."

- Andrea Dworkin

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."

- Andrea Dworkin

"The cultural institutions which embody and enforce those interlocked aberrations - for instance, law, art, religion, nation-states, the family, tribe, or commune based on father-right - these institutions are real and they must be destroyed."

- Andrea Dworkin

No one has answered my question.
No one has answered the question I raised earlier. My question was, will pro-abortionists be exempt from these new laws?

After all, feminists looked the other way when Bill Clinton was accused of sexual harrassment and rape. Evidently, being pro-abortion covers a multitude of sins.

Denis: Feminism
What have you given us a dozen quotes and guilt by association?

Can I brand Conservatives by the stupid things a hand full of Conservatives have said and by the poorly chosen alliances of some Conservatives?

Anne: Feminims
Feminists Majority Foundation:
Saudi Justice Ministry Upholds Rape Victim’s Sentence of 200 Lashings

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=10 677

iFeminist:
Saudi women activists protest gang-rape ruling
http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/enews/enews.php?item .8311.3

Feminist Peace Network:
Saudi Rape Victim Sentenced to 6 Months and 200 Lashes
http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org/2007/11/16/saudi-rape-v ictim-sentenced-to-6-months-and-200-lashes/

And there are lost more just Google.

As you should know the Feminists Majority Foundation publisher of Ms. Magazine has been advocating for Islamic women's rights long before conservatives even knew there was an Islamic world.

And have taken heat from conservatives and liberals alike for their uncompromising work in defending both the right of women in Islamic countries to practice Islam or any other religion of their choice with out repercussion, to be given human rights, and to not get be collateral damage.



Ken
maybe we don't know. Are we aloud to not know things?

More Feminist Leader Hate
The following quotes as the above quotes, are from leaders in the Feminist Movement. Some are college professors, some writers, some legislator's, and some political advisor's.

"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."

The Woman's Room - Marilyn French

"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together…. Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process…. No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children…."

"Functions of the Family," WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression…"

- Sheila Jeffrys


More Feminist Leader Hate
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."

Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."

(Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.) - Catherine MacKinnon

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."

- Catherine MacKinnon

"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage."

From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan

"All men are good for is fu*king, and running over with a truck"

Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000.


uber
"maybe we don't know. Are we aloud to not know things?"

Are you saying ignorance is bliss? If so, you must be a very happy person.

Ken: Virtue
No, I'm saying, that not speaking when one is ignorant is a virtue.

Choose your shoes
Old Social Worker:
"... as these silly ditzes click about in their preposterous pumps while presenting information from 1968 as if its new."

Icedog:
"...all I saw were .... hundreds of women wearing comfortable shoes."

Mary C.

Please explain why there is something wrong with comfortable shoes? Men wear them, so why wouldn't any intelligent woman?

In Other Parts of The World
In India feminist law (ladies always win) also jails family members - fathers and grandparents for 498a violations. The results are the same as America, the wife is a victim then she gets property, money, kid, satisfaction for imprisoning the person(s) she hates.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/11/30/mens-marriage-movement- strong-in-india

The Monstrous Regiment of Women
The Monstrous Regiment of Women, The Gunn Brother’s second documentary, goes all out to demolish the feminist worldview. From a consistently Christian perspective, they show how feminism has had a devastating impact on the church, state, and family.

http://www.monstrousregiment.com/clips.htm

Best Advice until the feminists leave
Do Not Marry, Do Not Have Children by Stephen Baskerville, Ph.D

"Marriage is a foundation of civilized life. No advanced civilization has ever existed without the married, two-parent family. Those who argue that our civilization needs healthy marriages to survive are not exaggerating.

And yet I cannot, in good conscience, urge young men to marry today. For many men (and some women), marriage has become nothing less than a one-way ticket to jail. Even the New York Times has reported on how easily “the divorce court leads to a jail cell,” mostly for men. In fact, if I have one urgent piece of practical advice for young men today it is this: Do not marry and do not have children."

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/11/14/do-not-marry-do-not-hav e-children

The advice is for men, as rarely women incarcerated or punished.
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