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Monday, October 08, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Scholars Explain President's Plan for A North American Union
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Those who seek to understand what's behind the chatter about President George W. Bush's Security and Prosperity Partnership as a possible prelude to a North American Union, similar to the European Union, should read the 35-page White Paper published recently by the Hudson Institute called "Negotiating North America: The Security and Prosperity Partnership."

The Washington, D.C., think tank is blunt and detailed in describing where the Security and Prosperity Partnership is heading.

Here's how Hudson defines the Security and Prosperity Partnership's goal: "The SPP process is the vehicle for the discussion of future arrangements for economic integration to create a single market for goods and services in North America."

The key words are "economic integration," a phrase used again and again, into a North American "single market," another phrase used repeatedly.

"Integration" with Mexico and Canada is exactly what North American union means, but there's a big problem with this goal. "We the people" of the United States were never asked if we want to be "integrated" with Mexico and Canada, two countries of enormously different laws, culture, concept of government's role, economic system and standard of living.

Here's how Hudson explains the Security and Prosperity Partnership's process: "The most important feature of the SPP design is that it is neither intended to produce a treaty nor an executive agreement like the NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) that would require congressional ratification or the passage of implementing legislation in the United States. The SPP was designed to function within existing administrative authority of the executive branch."

Hudson explains further: "The design of the SPP is innovative, eschewing the more traditional diplomatic and trade negotiation models in favor of talks among civil service professionals and subject matter experts with each government. This design places the negotiation fully within the authority of the executive branch in the United States."

Indeed, the Security and Prosperity Partnership is very "innovative." The arrogance of the Security and Prosperity Partnership's "design" to give the executive branch full "authority" to "enforce and execute" whatever is decided by a three-nation agreement of "civil service professionals," as though it were "law," is exceeded only by its unconstitutionality.

The Hudson White Paper admits the problem that the Security and Prosperity Partnership completely lacks "transparency and accountability." Hudson freely admits "the exclusion of Congress from the process"; constituents who contact their Congressmen discover that members know practically nothing about the Security and Prosperity Partnership.

Hudson states that, under the Security and Prosperity Partnership, one of the U.S. challenges is "managing Congress." Is Congress now to be "managed," either by executive-branch "authority" or by "dozens of regulators, rule makers, and officials working with their counterparts" from Mexico and Canada?

The Hudson White Paper reminds us that the 2005 Council on Foreign Relations document called "Building a North American Community" bragged that its recommendations are "explicitly linked" to SPP. The Council on Foreign Relations document called for establishing a "common perimeter" around North America by 2010.

Hudson praises the Council on Foreign Relations document for "raising public expectations" about what the Security and Prosperity Partnership can accomplish. Hudson explains that, while immigration is not an explicit Security and Prosperity Partnership agenda item, "mobility across the border is central to the idea of an integrated North American economic space."

"Harmonization" with other countries is another frequently used word. One of the Security and Prosperity Partnership's signature initiatives is "Liberalizing Rules of Origin."

The Hudson Paper reveals the Security and Prosperity Partnership's cozy collaboration with "some interest groups and not others." Translated, that means collaboration with multinational corporations, but not with small business or citizen groups.

After the heads of state of the United States, Mexico and Canada met in Waco, Texas, in March 2005 and announced the creation of the Security and Prosperity Partnership by press release, the North American Competitiveness Council emerged as "a private sector forum for business input" to Security and Prosperity Partnership working groups. But, according to Hudson, it wasn't merely "private" because it was "given official sanction."

After the three amigos met in Cancun, Mexico, in 2006, President Bush provided taxpayer funding for a think tank called the Center for Strategic and International Studies to meet secretly and produce a report called "The Future of North America." That document's favorite catchword is "North American labor mobility," which is a euphemism for admitting unlimited cheap labor from Mexico.

The Hudson White Paper states that "SPP combines an agenda with a political commitment." That's exactly why those who want to protect American sovereignty don't like the Security and Prosperity Partnership.

Among the people who take the Security and Prosperity Partnership seriously are Rep. Virgil Goode, R-Va., who introduced a House resolution opposing a North American Union and a NAFTA Superhighway, similar resolutions introduced into the state legislatures of 14 states, and California Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter's amendment to prohibit the use of federal funds for Security and Prosperity Partnership working groups, which passed in the House by a vote of 362-63 on July 24.

The Hudson white paper suggests that it might be "necessary" for the Security and Prosperity Partnership to change its name and acronym. It is unlikely that a change of name will silence the American people who are outraged by the Security and Prosperity Partnership's goals and process.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Hudson Institute?
I went to the Hudson Institute website to try to order the publication referenced by Mrs. Schlafly. My search yeilded zero (0) results.

Let's see: Mrs. Schlafly submits a column on the insidious (and non-existent) NAU, references a publication by the Hudson Institute and provides a synopsis of a Hudson Institute white paper that is no longer available on their website... COINCIDENCE???

probably...

Bush is the best!
Of all the Democrat presidents, I like GW Bush the best! He has done more to help us grow government than any other president in history. Now he is building the foundation for a massive influx of Third Worlders into our country, and that will translate into a majority of Democrat votes in every election from here on out.

What a stealth candidate the guy has been. He purports to fight the enemies of our nation at the front door, meanwhile he has propped open the Mexican back door. Such duplicity is admired by every loyal Democrat, and that makes GW the best guy we could have ever elected.


Michael Medved says this
is all hooey.

Phileo
I found references to this subject at hudson.org and it is not difficult. Go to the site and click on pupilcations and op-eds.

Good hunting!

Spelling
"publications", not puplications. Sorry!

nau
there have been several references to this idea but there is still little discussion as to whether this is actually something being considered or another idea floating about that will never take gain a foothold. But in view of the president's attitude about illegals, there may be something worrisome about this nau if it is another attempt for this misguided man to find some type of legacy.

NAU...and if you believe that....
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away


Talk about black helicopters....

Does the words "No chance in h*ll" mean anything to you?


The NAU is very real
Ms. Schlafly is very correct to point this out. The key word is integration. Economic integration is exactly what the European Union was all about and now they are trying to force a constitution down the throats of the people of Europe and they have a single currency.

The same interests are at play. They are global bureaucrats. When power consolidates it almost assuredly is stricken by corruption. We can definitely see it here, now that we have socialism and a Federal Democracy versus the Republic we should have kept. That is why we are so polarized on a Federal level, because power has been so consolidated that the Federal Government has more say in our lives. Everything from cradle to grave is under jurisdiction of the Federal Government and the special interests have been in Washington for a long time, but with every transfer of power more interests descend on DC. When it goes to a supernational level the interests and their power multiply. Oil for Food? This is business as usual and not the exception to the rule.


Sellout and Propitious Profits
The corporate owners of The Unified Establishment Party* do not care if We The People of The United States of America do not want to erase our borders. The money at stake is huge. Medved is on the payroll. They will continue to import the labor for the jobs that cannot be exported unless we elect a President who WILL enforce our laws. Duncan Hunter will scrap the SPP. If you want to keep your country, vote in the primaries.


http://www.gohunter08.com

*
h/t Pasadena Phil

for those who have not visited his blog, I highly recommend you go back three columns and read them chronologically.
http://thewayweare.townhall.com/

Mexico or CHina?
WE need to transfer as much of our buying power from China to Mexico. The latter is a country that could grow significantly, creating jobs for all these illegal immigrants, who might just prefer to stay in Mexico. Furthermore, Mexico is a country that won't be going to the Middle East to compete with America for oil.

The price of oil drops, China becomes a little friendlier (more helpful with terrorist nations) as they try to get back in our good graces.

This solves alot of problems. Not for China mind you. MAybe this is why they want to court the Democrats. THey gave Bill Clinton hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more) which he returned in spades, sending them missile technology against the wishes of the DOD.

I have to believe that they are involved with Norman Hsu.

My only problem
Is what do we do to stop GW Bush in his selling out the birth right of the nation?
I mean without a civil war.
-------------
Here's how Hudson explains the Security and Prosperity Partnership's process: "The most important feature of the SPP design is that it is neither intended to produce a treaty nor an executive agreement like the NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) that would require congressional ratification or the passage of implementing legislation in the United States. The SPP was designed to function within existing administrative authority of the executive branch."

-------

No sense wasting time arguing with the idiots like Medved and others over this obvious on-going sell out, they are part of the problem.

Everything from manufacturing to ports and highways,to millions of illegals to even defense-network computer technology for the Pentagon, is being allowed to consider a buyout by a Chinese company.

"U.S. Department of Commerce who are busily “harmonizing” the laws under the auspices of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP).



This, we’re told, is not a treaty so Congress has no constitutional oversight obligation."
Alan Caruba

With Congress itself not included in any decision, whats left if we want it stopped?


Jed Babbin
Babbin, normally a good guy, has taken to insulting Jerome Corsi. Corsi has a book out on this very subject.
This needs to be an election issue.

Inform you Congressman, Senator
They will be ticked off they are "out of the loop". And they will de-fund the White House staff.

However, one Congressman already knows what is up.

Duncan Hunter led the House to pass a resolution telling the White House it cannot fund or hold meetings of "study groups" for this anti-constitutional charade.

Vote America first - vote Duncan Hunter for President.

http://www.GoHunter08.com

for those of you morons who cant find it

North American Union is not official
The North American Union is not an official title, but a characterization.

The official title to this scheme is the Security and prosperity Partnership.

The NAU name is used to suggest the similarity to the European Union.

Also, as important, to suggest the process of integration is also similar. Achieved by piecemeal steps that are hard to detect and stay BELOW THE RADAR SCREEN (stealth).

What I would find amusing, if it wasn't so serious, are all the flops by both columnists and commenters who try to refute the idea of an NAU and the loss of sovereignty it represents.

They fail utterly. Either by ridicule (the most common tactic) or serious discussion.

There are too many facts beyond dispute. Also there are numerous chains of circumstancial evidence that lead to the conclusion there is a goal of an NAU like arrangement.

I suspect, but don't know, that supporters of the SPP rationalize their beliefs. And in this rationaliztion, they don't see the SPP as a loss of sovereignty.

My sense: They are wrong.

And, undoubtedly, some know exactly what they are doing and what it will lead to.

They must be stopped!

talent scout
Civil war might be nice but Jorge has that covered too. Under homeland security directives Bush can basically impose martial law. Insurrection is one of the emergencies he can use.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56 014

Insurrection would be hard to control
if the military was aware of this and on OUR side...

Anna
I have already read lots of information about this subject and also find it very disturbing to say the least.

It is like reading how the President plans for it to happen, and wants it to.

--------------

Anna writes:
Civil war might be nice but Jorge has that covered too. Under homeland security directives Bush can basically impose martial law. Insurrection is one of the emergencies he can use.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56 014
-----------

The U.S. Army is authorized to create civilian prison labor camps on military installations, according to a little-noticed regulation.

The camps are allowed if the request comes from the Federal Bureau of Prisons or state corrections facilities under leasing requirements defined by federal law.

WND's discovery of the regulation comes shortly after Bush administration directives expanding presidential powers during an emergency.

The Army prison camp policy is defined in Army Regulation 210-35, entitled "Installations: Civilian Inmate Labor Camps," signed Feb. 14, 2005, by Sandra R. Riley, then-administrative assistant to the secretary of the Army.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57 404

I read every article I can by Jerome Corsi.
The man is no one's fool

Big Problem Here
Well, now writes:
Insurrection would be hard to control
if the military was aware of this and on OUR side.

-------------------

All our Ground Forces are scattered across the globe.
As is most of our Military.

Maybe we could use UN Peace Keepers here with our troops out of the country.

Check these programs out.
Rex84.....http://uweb.txstate.edu/~lf14/conspire/rex84.html

Cable Splicer http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Operation_Cable _Splicer

Garden Plot
If any civil disturbance by a resistance group, religious organization, or other persons considered to be non-conformist takes place, under Appendix 3 to Annex B of Plan 55-2 hereby gives all Federal forces total power over the situation if local and state authorities cannot put down said dissenters.

Annex A, section B of Operation Garden Plot defines tax protesters, militia groups, religious cults, and general anti-government dissenters as Disruptive Elements.

http://www.uhuh.com/control/garden.htm



Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122) (2), which was signed by the commander in chief on October 17th, 2006, in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."
http://www.bordc.org/threats/hr5122.php

Wow ...
you people are slow. Stuffs been going on for years. Written about very plainly by advocates and those who tried to warn us were called fringe element nuts.
My guess is that the boomers are older now and their attention has been diverted from their genitallia and to replace the void we have suddenly awakened to things that should have been a priority all along.

As far as Jorge goes .... he's a polititian. A vile and dispicable creature whose only competance is the exploitation of the baseness of the masses. Good people don't promote bad leadership. Kiss self determination and personal integrity good-bye ... Hello Great Mother Hillary!

Labor Camps
For those interested here is the regulation
http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf

Scholars explain
Be afraid...very afraid.

hackamore
And you trust Michael Medved because...?

I don't get you people
The skeptics who say this is paranoia, black helicopters etc., seem to have their heads in the sand. What is it you don’t believe? Do you think our politicians are so honorable they would never let this happen? These are the same men who have used social security to balance the budget and now there is not enough money to take care of the future retirees who have worked all their life and paid into this system trusting their representatives to look after their money. Talk about corruption! The same stunt in a private company would land any CEO in prison.

Is it because you think big business and government can’t collaborate that you think a NAU can’t happen? Would you have believed 30 or 40 years ago that we would have the Mexican invasion and subjugation of our laws that we have today?

Open your eyes people!! This is happening. The very people who scoff today will be the one’s saying “How did this happen” when it’s too late.
Take responsibility for your country or live with the consequences!

I don't get you people
The skeptics who say this is paranoia, black helicopters etc., seem to have their heads in the sand. What is it you don’t believe? Do you think our politicians are so honorable they would never let this happen? These are the same men who have used social security to balance the budget and now there is not enough money to take care of the future retirees who have worked all their life and paid into this system trusting their representatives to look after their money. Talk about corruption! The same stunt in a private company would land the CEO in prison.

Is it because you think big business and government can’t collaborate that you think a NAU can’t happen? Would you have believed 30 or 40 years ago that we would have the Mexican invasion and subjugation of our laws that we have today?

Open your eyes people!! This is happening. The very people who scoff today will be the one’s saying “How did this happen” when it’s too late.

Take responsibility for your country or live with the consequences!

I apologize for the double post
Guess I need to get back to work. Have a good day all.

Precedence
There is a precedence for Bushes actions in regards to a North American Union(SPP). That precedence is President Abraham Lincoln's invasion and brutal war against the South, circa 1861.

Hmmm.....
... I love the name-calling that substitutes for substantive debate by many. "Idiots", "retards", etc. -- without any facts or documentations to back it up. Even Shlafly's column is riddles with words like "translated" and "means" and of course, the "multinational corporations" are the ultimate villain. Hello Green Party.

Isolationism in a global economy is not going to work. A "common market" is not a loss of sovereignty. Trade is not a bad thing, and increasing government intrusion into commerce only makes us freer in Orwellian terms.

Where are
Fransisco d'Anconia, Ellis Wyatt and the rest when we need them?
I guess we'll have to do it for them, there is no other recourse, unless one re-visits Mr Jefferson's ideals.

Kurtout

NAU
The Hudson Institute says it so it must be true.

There is a good deal of economic integration among ASEAN but last I checked Singapore was still independent from Malaysia.

As for the EU, it started out as a coal and steel compact between France and Germany (to make another war between them difficult) and then evolved into an economic community and from there the EU with a single currency (and not all EU states have adopted the single currency).

It is a very big leap to go from economic integration among neighboring states such as between Malaysia and Singapore to a de facto super state like the EU.

Could there be a time there is a NAU, with a single economy, single currency, single government, etc. Sure, just as it is possible for there to be a single state among the ASEAN nations or a single super state between Japan, Taiwan, Korea (north and south), and China--but again not very likely.


American Lao Gai
Oh and the Army "labor camps" regs state clearly that the source of the inmates are those who are in a Federal correction facility (on or off post) and inmates in state facilities that are on post.

So this is simply not something about rounding up Americans and throwing them into camps.

Not that I trust the US all that much, but this is not something you need to worry about at this point. The US isn't competent enough to issue passports on time, you think they are going to be able to roundup people simply for opposing US policy?

Mindless.


NAU-ers FORGOT ONE THING

While plans are quietly and furtively being laid to render the Congress and, concomitantly, "We, the People," irrelevant and immaterial, to say nothing of useless (as if we aren't all of those enough already), dubya might want to look into the real possibility that his own office may well be painted with the same brush in the not-too-distant future.

I have already come to the conclusion that he, not his office, has already been so painted.

While I admit to having voted for him twice, I have now begun to wonder about his intellect because of a number of decisions he seems to be making -- as furtively as possible. He surely has no second thoughts about an evident opinion that "We, the People," are as intelligent as a pile of rocks. That very erroneous opinion also seems to apply to any co-conspirators who may be involved either directly or tangentially in any of those decisions.

Before it's too late, we need to stand up and shout that we are not going to take it anymore. And don't forget we're mad, too. And angry.

WHILE WE'RE AT IT: THE 2ND AMENDMENT

Let us not lag in our absolute freedom as citizens to be armed.

White House and RNC phone #s.
WH- 202 456-1414
RNC- 202 863-8500

John Galt
I went to your post, and read the first three posts. "A story that never gets old" caught my eye. You write very well and your thought processes are good. Sometimes the reason a scientist fails or a philosopher, is that he simply hasn't considered all the facts, or he has not given them their proper weight.

I find that problem in your concept of immigration. You are not giving proper weight to what others instinctually sense or recognize.

The unbridled numbers of people coming from one cultural, and one language and educationally bound region so close to our borders is the problem, not "immigration". This is before you even take in to consideration the fact that it is largely "illegal" and continues as an illegal activity in the face of all public opposition and lawful reason.

Before you jump to any conclusions about my perspectives, you should know I speak, read and write Spanish better than most of those who are crossing our border. You should know that I have lived a very large part of my life in Latin America and that I know the place both physically and culturally backwards and forwards. I have a very strong basis upon which to judge the "Migrants" who are illegally crossing the border and taking our jobs while at the same time insisting that we cater to them, their culture and their language.

Your friend, the former ambassador and speaker who defended his love for America after first being an "Immigrant" himself, would not like, so much, the country we soon will become if this illegal Tsunami is not halted and partially reversed.

Correct your perspectives and your thinking will follow suit.


John Galt

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Calling the rest of us idiots only proves that the name caller is an idiot. Even though I was very nice and educational with you in my previous post, do not assume we would hit it off over coffee.

Houston has really gone to sh!ts now, hasn't it.??.

I don't think you are a Texan, maybe a retread.

Can the North American Union be stopped?
I am concerned about this because I see what the future will be when we are over-run with Mexicans and Central Americans, who seem to breed like rabbits.

A couple of months ago I heard about the residents of Hollywood (the physical city, as opposed to the entertainment industry) who had decided to put a stop to the excessive pidgeon population there. It seems that a little old lady tossing huge bags of birdseed in a vacant lot every day has been a major cause of the pidgeon over-population.

So the good citizens of Hollywood, being unsuccessful in convincing this woman that she should stop this practice, have come up with a solution.

They plan to toss birdseed laced with birdie birth-control pills.

This has set me to thinking, I wonder if we can lace refried beans with powdered birth control pills and give them away downtown with tortillas?

Or better yet, give it away at the places where the illegals hop over the tiny little border fence.

Of course, no one would agree to this idea because it is politically incorrect. And also, it would take business away from Planned Parenthood.

Akagi
I respect your opinion(s).

But you have more faith in the American system than the rest of us.

In any case, the real issue is the free movement, not of cargo, but of human beings, who are not supposed to have simple and free access to a neighbor, far or near.

The SPP gives open reign to this crossing and recrossing of borders within the three countries and soon to include CAFTA, Central America and Dominican Republic. They are already working at and have short range plans to include several South American countries, ie., Colombia, Perú and others as the circumstances warrant. This is not even on the radar of most Americans.

The problem is unbridled workplace economic competition, as though giving contracts to India and numerous other countries were not enough.

OK, so "maybe" there are no black helicopters "yet". After the country is watered down and reeducated enough they simply will slip in all the changes, right through congress, that they already have in mind. It's called incrementalism.

That word is not on the word web, but I stand by it.

Regards........


Paranoia run amuck.....
Here I go again....
I am still not convinced that doing things to improve prosperity for all North Americans (anything to lower trade barriers, and improve trade efficiency) is a bad thing....which ostensibly the SPP is all about.

Here are some biblical issues to consider:

1st I am anti-tariff. A tariff is tantamount to theft since it confiscates the property of others in the name of "protecting yourself". Tariffs steal from consumers who are forced to pay higher prices for the protected alternative. Because of this it creates inefficiency, and no need to continually improve efficiency. Tariffs encourage trade warfare, and retalitory tariffs. Because of this, it encourages national conflict and xenophobia (of the likes of Phyllis Schlafly), which have in the past lead to war. Its leads to higher unemployment.

Free trade means producers have to strive to continually to make their products better and cheaper. Less efficient producers have to either exit the market, or find other things to produce in which they do have an advantage....thus benefitting the consumer.

If building a highway through the US and using Mexico's ports means higher effieciency and prosperity for both the US (Mexico should benefit, too), meaning more jobs in Mexico, maybe fewer illegals coming here....a stated goal of the SPP, I see greater prosperity and benefits for all.

BTW....conspiracists
as to the NASCO super highway.....

I am not up on Texan political issues, since it has been a few years since I lived in Austin.....but it seems reasonable for Austin, and probably Dallas, to have trucking bypass the city by using alternate routes...especially if this includes a more efficient NASCO developed highway. Back when I lived in Austin, their two lane double decker free way through the heart of the city was a joke...getting onto the freeway on the on ramps was dangerous....the shortest on ramps I have ever driven (0-60 in about 30 yards with trucks barrelling down on you). None of this seems unreasonable.

The conspiracists job, then is to tell us why improving trade efficiency with the likes of Mexico and improving traffic congestion in some of the larger I-35 corridor freeways is a bad thing.

The evils of Dubya....
The president is in office for only 15 more months....will he get all of the NAU machinery in place so that the next president can't do anything about it, or not. If he can, gotta say, that he was the most effective president ever in getting his un-stated agenda accomplished....(couldn't get social security reformed, though, LOL.)

Or does it matter who the next president is. What if Ron Paul won the presidency?

Hmmm? Ron Paul can't win, you say?.....why does he run, then?

Just love you conspiracists....

Thanks!
Thanks for another good article on the NAU. I know this comes from your heart, Phyllis, or you wouldn't be doing it. Just wanted you to know there are a lot of people who really appreciate your taking the NAU out of the dark. Sometimes, I feel defeated already, but I'm glad you don't.

We see it coming in Texas by the droves, highlighted in the news as the City of Irving strives to do it's job as it always has despite the fact that illegal immigrants contend they are singled out and should somehow be above the laws.

NAU and what our government is allowing to happen makes me sick. We have to stay on the alert all the time for the next offensive as there seems to be no end to it.

How anybody could be blind to it is beyond me. They must be very well off or invested in the future of it to care as little as they do.

Thank you for caring.

Violation of the Separation of Powers
This is another issue beside illegal immigration that disgust me with George Bush. George Bush is no conservative and his actions support that undeniably well. George Bush has violated the GOP Conservative base and I hold him responsible and the GOP Big Spenders for the 2006 Fiasco giving Demonrats control over Congress. I will always remember GWB arrogance at the G-8 Summit, stating that when he returns, he will reopen the Comprehensive Immigration Bill and get it passed. He wasn't listening to his Base supporters, in fact I wonder if he ever did. This is why we need to enact Newt's ideas of Presidential Debates, no more 2 minute sound bites, but full 90 minutes no holds barred between the Candidates with no moderator and no stupid questions from the voters. If GWB had been forced to this level of intense scrutiny, just maybe the GOP would have seen GWB for who he was and not for what he said he was or how his handlers made him appear. Also, GWB did not allow our Military to do what they required to win in Iraq. Iran has steadily violated our troops in Iraq and GWB has done nothing to stop this attrocities. GWB is a very poor excuse for POTUS, and for a so called Conservative. GWB is the reason I call myself an Independent, but I will never vote for a Socialist Commie Demonrat, and GWB knows that either we vote for him or vote for a Demonrat and that is why he doesn't care or listen to his base of Core Conservatives.

From a Canadian ...
... whether or not the NAU plan goes through, and even whether or not it's a good idea, it still remains that the United States has the biggest economy and the most clout. You guys are in the drivers seat! Canadians and Mexicans will have to play by your rules.

We Canucks are just as jealous of our sovereignity as you guys are, and there will be plenty of heat from our parties, press and public about a "sellout" to "American values."

I'm sure the same would hold for Mexico.

heresyarch condescendingly sniffs -
"The conspiracists job, then is to tell us why improving trade efficiency with the likes of Mexico and improving traffic congestion in some of the larger I-35 corridor freeways is a bad thing."

While I can't speak for those conspirsts you wish to impugn, I would point out a couple of (what should be) obvious concerns: 1) Trucks based out of Mexico will likely be subject to less stringent safety requirements, and 2) Mexican’s are notorious in their belief that driving drunk is “macho”. Seems to me this could be a very bad combination.

Remember when?
In the 80's and early 90's, when the chicken littles were saying that Japan would own America... not just economically, but physically? Japan was buying up real estate, and wanted to turn California and Hawaii into golf courses?

Well, it never came about. But if it had, at least we would have been selling out to the highest bidder.

Today, the administration seems intent on selling us out to the LOWEST bidders. We are owned by a third world county (China) and we're borrowing money from them to start a wholesale buyout Mexico's poverty.

Your dollar is worth nothing. Why? Because the neocons want Mexico's currency to come in line with the dollar. You don't see Mexico borrowing trillions to fight optional wars. Soon, they'll be our economic equal. Not because they'll have advanced, but because we'll have regressed.

A country where the 2,000 year old concept of indoor plumbing is still foreign, and 20 people share a 20x20 shack. It's coming. Middle class? What? Who?


NAU
Actually, Onceamarine, I have little faith in the US. And since it is not competent enough to issue passports in a reasonable amount of time, I just don't think it could carry such a project off and in secret. If people think the illegal alien issue was hot, the NAU would be a hundred times worse.

I also agree that the issue is not immigration per se but the source of it. 70% of all illegals come from two countries--with the same culture and language. If the 20 million were spread out among Chinese, Indians, Russians and the like there wouldn't be nearly the issue as it is now.

Akagi surmizes -
"If the 20 million were spread out among Chinese, Indians, Russians and the like there wouldn't be nearly the issue as it is now."

Actually, I beleive it is not only cuntry of origin, but over-all "quality" of immigrant that makes a difference.

Those who immigrat here for the three countries you've mentioned tend to be those who are educated and established, and who come here to prosper - the "cream of the crop", if you will.

On the other hand, the immigrants from Latin America are, increasingly, the uneducated poor, who will do low-end labor - for a time, then will find a way to "milk" the system via anchor babies for welfare, access to schools (and free meals), and no cast to them emergency room dcotor visits.

The former can actually help to keep the economic engine running full throttle. The later will selectively benefit very few, at the considerable expense of US citizens.

The former, with the possible exception of Russian mobsters) can be counted on to be lawfull and well-mannered. Their cultural norms tend to mesh well with our

The latter are increasingly disregarding our laws, be it identity theft, drunk driving, sexual-exploitation of children, gang-banging, or virtually any other vice. This is largely because their cultural norms allow for them to do as they wish, no matter the harm done.

the reason Americans would be more accepting of non-Latin immigrants has more to do with their better behaviors rather than the specific country of origin.

Mountain Rose
The best place to put that water is in bottled water and leave it allong the routes they use to cross the desert to enter the USA. Of course it would have to be something that is permanent. O.K. so it's a little harsh. But them ruining our economy is too.

Correction
Make that the best place to put that powder not water.

Akagi

""It's called incrementalism.

That word is not on the word web, but I stand by it.""

Remember that I said that WORD.

The giverment isn't nearly as interested in our having passports as they are in pulling off the fire sale of the century. Follow the money. We are talking not only new politics, but old money growing enormously more important and powerful. Now if you were offered top dog of the U.S. with the congress and a voting public between you and total power, or you were offered world dominance with a few of your cohorts as mangers of government, as a choice, wouldn't you (John Smith) go for the world.??.

Yes, "maybe" it's not happening, BUT, it's in the works. Count on it.


PROGRAMS, we got programs
This is FREE TRADE?
---------------


John Galt writes: 9:29 AM
Trade is not a bad thing, and increasing government intrusion into commerce only makes us freer in Orwellian terms.
--------------------------

You are by any chance saying there is no government involved?
NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA, WTO, SPP, GATT,EU is all by who then?
AND
QUOTE:
Since 1988, 42 voluntary initiatives have been developed at the federal level by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and industrial trade organizations such as the American Chemistry Council. As of 1998, more than 7,000 corporations, small businesses, local governments, and nongovernmental organizations participated in public voluntary and negotiated programs administered by the EPA, according to the agency's most recent estimates (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 1998). The EPA had projected the number would increase to approximately 13,000 in 2000.

In contrast, more than 350 such agreements are in place in Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) member countries (Dowd and Boyd, 1998). European examples include the Dutch covenant system and the Danish CO2 Agreements. The OECD (1999) compared VAs in Europe, Japan, and the United States.

Despite their growing popularity, a 1997 study commissioned by the U.S. Congress found EPA voluntary initiatives to be "marginal" to the agency's regulatory activities (National Academy of Public Administration [NAPA], 1997). Similarly, a 1996 study commissioned by 21 U.S. companies found the EPA's major voluntary programs "peripheral, both to business and to society" "



Just think, this is justa drop in the bucket of the government running business today.
And it really is called free trade?


slwerner
I am hardly impugning anyone.....conspiracists claim there is a secret plan to subvert our national sovereignty, establish a single over arching government over the US, Canada, and Mexico, and unite our currency (not sure what *more* damage can be done in excess to the fact that our currency its already a fiat currency anyway...that which I view unethical...another debate for another time).

Its secret, because no one in government admits to this. The president denies it,...and hell, even Robert Pastore explicitly denies it. When you bring this up to the conspiracist, well, its like asking the wolf whose watching the sheep claiming he is looking out for the sheep's best interests.

Your points however, are red herrings.

If Mexican truck drivers are as wreckless as you claim (irrelevant to the point of highways being created to AVOID congestion, and facilitate the trucking of goods), then: A) laws that exist to protect us from drunk drivers should be enforced, and B) Perhaps laws should be created force Mexican truck drivers to meet *your* standard....whatever that is.

But you have to provide evidence (real statistics), rather than refer to stereotypes to justify such laws. My understanding is that goods currently switch from Mexican drivers to US drivers at the borders anyway....since goods should be going through customs, it seems a good place to switch hands, and then what would then be your point....we're back to square one...if it improves efficiency, why not? What has this to do with US sovereignty anyway?





Trade agreements are not
loss of sovereignty, but the refusal of the entire federal gov't to seal the borders, north and south, in a time of worldwide threat from terrorists certainly gives rise to fears of some strange plan coming into effect.

Group of Questions....
For the Christians in Phyllis Schlafly's camp....don't care what unbelievers think.

I'll use a little Socrates to see how some of you believers in Christ fit this NAU conspiracy into your agenda....it ought to be interesting.

1) Is a nations prosperity determined by God? Yes, or No.

2) Are the 10 commandments really only 10 suggestions today? Yes or No.

3) Does God bless a nation obedient to His laws? Yes or No.

4) Does God curse and enslave a nation not obedient to His Law? Yes or No.

5) Would you accept policy created that is in agreement with the Laws of God that Christ has not specifically abrogated? Yes or No.

6) Do you want policy created by government that is specifically contrary to the Law of God that Christ as not specifically abrogated? Yes or No.

7) How does God want us to treat aliens from a foreign land. Open ended for discussion.


"AMERO" is coming to US
Careful there Sam, heresyarch (aka Carl Rove) is going to start calling you a conspiracy theorist. So, stop pointing out that all this is going on right out in the open and highly placed people openly say so. Do like heresyarch does, and bury you head in the sand.

Whats wrong with being called a
conspiracist?

One holding a conspiracy theory?

And who is the one who gave conspiracy such a bad name anyhow?

And I thought a conspiracy was hidden from the public?
Not open and transparent as the NAU is.

By the way, has there ever been a conspiracy in the world?
Probably not and makes me curious why we have laws against them, they do not happen, except by us tinfoil hatted people.
Wearing it right now and I hear voices telling me really cool secrets, and I am not telling anyone else what they are.

Wrong
renny writes: 8:24 PM
Trade agreements are not
loss of sovereignty,
------------------
Proverb
The borrower is servant to the lender.

Trade agreements can be so bad for one side, he loses all he owns.
Just as we see happening in America.
Owing the Red Chinese Communists, and half the world.
Course the corporations are doing well.





renny writes:
but the refusal of the entire federal gov't to seal the borders, north and south, in a time of worldwide threat from terrorists certainly gives rise to fears of some strange plan coming into effect.
------------
Amen
But what is worse than that is how American Citizens are checked and re-checked when we travel, papers, luggage, shoes, and body cavities all the while the unknowns flock in across the open borders.

heresyarch writes:
By golly aren't you full of it, and very much up to your name Mr. Archibald Heresy or whatever your name is. Sure sound like a heretic to me.

""A person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion).""

Being unorthodox is not a crime, I quite often am, but being a buttocks wind pipe comes really close.

No. 7- I can't give you the quotes. They were here recently on TH. Jesus, the son of God, son and representative on earth, had definite things to say about foreigners. No disrespect "for" them nor "from" them. The "law" and "respect" for the original inhabitants comes first according to the quotes exhibited here a few days back.

Perhaps some day, if not tonight, someone will be so kind as to spout lines and verses for you. There are a number of different passages in the New Testament that very clearly show the teaching at the time of Christ and his own statements on the matter of being a foreigner, from other cities, and how they should always and absolutely respect their position as a guest who did not break the rules where ever they might have traveled.

Laws are rules. They are to be respected or there can be no civilization worthy of note. Laws in Mexico are poorly enforced and spotilly enforced. In general terms, it's a land where you do what you please and try not to get caught. I have the years of experience in Mexico, and other Latin American countries to know just exactly how it works and how it plays out.


re: onceamarine
Point out where, specifically, I called anyone an idiot. I was referring to other posts, where people skeptical of a coming NAU were referred to as "idiots" and "retards"; my comment was that name calling is neither constitutes nor is a substitute for substantive, intellectually honest debate.

For the record, Houston is doing quite well actually.


Vicent FOX Openly says REGIONAL CURRENCY
Sam,

This is an issue which I haven’t tried to follow to closely. Yet, I am quite aware that much has been written, and that much has been being said about it. This poster heresyarch seems to believe that it hasn’t been happening, that it’s all just the wild imagination of conspiracy theorists.

Again, it’s an issue I haven’t followed closely, thus I haven’t compiled my own list of references to the previous source materials. I know they out there, and I suspect numerous others have followed the issue and have compiled lists of references. I’d like to see someone with that knowledge post a list of links so that this heresyarch can see for him or herself that such a movement really is afoot, and it is something that average Americans ought to be worried about. I’m really getting quite sick of these neocon(men) types spouting about how we must have open borders, wide-open and unfettered immigration and wide-open free trade, regardless of the collateral damages. Their primary interest seems to lie only with the select few who actually do gain (financial) benefit from cheap immigrant labor.

I do hope someone can set this poor misguided soul straight.

re: "free trade" and trade agreements
The point was made, and accurately, that our so-called "free trade" deals are not truly free trade deals -- NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. Yes, this is a true statement, as there are still numerous restrictions -- on government subsidization, product safety and quality, anti-dumping restrictions, etc. -- but the ultimate point is at least free-er trade, with less government taxation of our commerce. Having less expensive goods and services from which to choose is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. As I mentioned above, to suggest that we are somehow "freer" by having increased government taxation and restriction in commerce is simply wrong.

onceamarine....
Calling me unorthodox, you say,eh?

Well, I suppose that all depends?

Do you consider John Calvin unorthodox? How about Martin Luther of the Reformation fame?
How about Jonathan Edwards, or George Whitefield of the 1st great awakening fame? Charles Spurgeon? There is a little of each of them in me.....more Jonathan Edwards than the other.

Yes, I have little in common with the Jerry Falwells, the Ken Hagees, the Joel Osteens, the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormons, the JWs, Hal Lindseys, Jack VanImpes of the world.

My "nom de plume", Heresyarch, is chosen EXACTLY for folk as yourself...I figure it is appropriate because Christianity is heresy by today's standards. My townhall website, is such that it targets your kind....Against the World, or Contra Mundum. You are the world if you don't/can't recognize me....and probably why you *may* have your head in the sand.

As to your position on foreigners, you are basically right. A rich country will attract aliens....God realized he would make Israel prosperous and that would attract aliens. They should be treated with respect. I understand they are breaking immigration laws, but you have to ask what of those laws are all that biblical?
What if laws were passed that force you to give up your first born son to slavery to the state?

Also you should note, I am against funding their education, health care, etc at tax payer expense. I am even against the minimum wage laws AND state run education. All are unbiblical and are in many instances, state mandated theft....also against the 10 commandments.

You did very well on Number 7.


Talent Scout...
TS: Whats wrong with being called a conspiracist?

H: Nothing as long as you hold a true conspiracy.

TS: And who is the one who gave conspiracy such a bad name anyhow?

H: Most conspiracies are false. Those who filter their whole world view through them is why they develop bad names....be it the Branch Davidians, Peoples Temple...er, Jim Jones loonies,Heaven's gate cult...or the latest fad, Bush Derangement Syndrome regarding the twin towers. CFR, Tri Lateral Commission, the Bildebergers, floride in tooth paste...Mel Gibson covers many of them nicely in his movie Conspiracy Theory.

TS: And I thought a conspiracy was hidden from the public? Not open and transparent as the NAU is.

H: The NAU has been explicitly denied by both Bush, and the brains....Robert Pastore.

By the way, has there ever been a conspiracy in the world?
Of course....I believe in the oldest conspiracy that manifests itself in the fall. "Ye shall be as gods". Beautifully hidden and secret as shown by C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters.

On Fox's Amero
KING: E-mail from Mrs. Gonzalez in Elizabeth, New Jersey. "Mr. Fox, I would like to know how you feel about the possibility of having a Latin America united with one currency?"·

FOX: Long term, very long term. What we propose together, President Bush and myself, it's ALCA, which is a trade union for all of the Americas. And everything was running fluently until Hugo Chavez came. Hedecided to isolate himself. He decided to combat the idea and destroy the idea...·"

This is the problem I have with Corsi's selective quotes. In the World Net Daily article, he does a partial quote out of context for full effect. He is no better than a lib journalist. From Vicente Fox's answer, I am not even sure he understood the question.

slwerner.....
My final post of the day....

Since Scripture is my guide, I worry more about what God will do to our nation when we continually do not live according to His standards more than I worry about you ridiculing my position.

If we do succumb to being the NAU and completely lose our national sovereignty, and the end of our constitution is a fait accompli....it will not be because we elected George Bush into office. That Amero plan according to Fox, is a long, very long term plan. So it must involve the next president of the US, as well as BushI, Clinton, Bush2, and whoever except Ron Paul.

I am for "responsible immigration", which means I don't want those with diseases, tics, and bed bugs, or those with criminal records immigrating to our country which also means I want borders enforced! I also want almost no limits to immigration if and only iff they meet US standards....willing to work hard, and contribute to society. I also want all of the entitlements to end. Now you may call this "cheap labor" that will only benefit the rich, but I call it the land of opportunity, that will prosper simply because God will bless it. The population will increase as it needs to for our economy over all to grow. As Reagan said, we really want a bigger pie, not the biggest piece of a smaller pie, with little left over.

Couldn't help but post this quote:
"Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged."
---Ronald Reagan

"responsible immigration"
Heresyarch – “I am for "responsible immigration"”

Oh, are you!?!?

Well, how about this for a condition: before we allow immigration, lets have ALL of your other qualifiers met. How about that?

Let’s get the entitlements stopped – first.
Let’s do enforce those borders (as you claim you want).
Let’s get all of those who are here to stop breaking the laws, and cease their wide-ranging and pervasive criminality.
Then we can talk about selective “responsible immigration".

But, that’s not what you really want, now is it?

I gather you’re like most other neocon(men). You’re happy to talk of ending entitlements, enforcing borders, punishing criminals, deporting criminals… you name! You’ll claim to be for anything. Just so long as the flow of immigrants continues, unabated.

Say, heresyarch, it’s God all-powerful? Couldn’t he bless these people in their own lands? So, why doesn’t he?

Could it be that their corrupt culture(s) leave them as unworthy of God’s blessing as any other bunch of Philistine’s?

Forget the empty platitudes like, “Family values don’t stop at the border”, because, down there, family values just aren’t the same as they are here. There are laws against drunk driving in Mexico, for instance. But they’re just window dressing. The only cost to a drunk driver there is a bribe to a corrupt Police officer. And what of this practice of “rapto” (kidnapping random women for gang-rapes), which isn’t even prosecuted in Mexico? Child labor? Child sex? I don’t think I want THOSE “family values” coming here!

If the MeCHa and La Raza bunch ever get their way, and turn the US into Mexico North (aka Aztlan), perhaps God will then bless them here the way we has blessed them in Mexico.

Until such a disastrous time, you neocons and bleeding-heart liberals who want more immigrants here need to be willing to “step up” and start paying the (high) cost for them out of your own pockets.

Interesting perspective

Talent Scout...
TS: Whats wrong with being called a conspiracist?
-------

heresyarch writes: 2:59 PM
H: Nothing as long as you hold a true conspiracy.
---------------

ts:
You have an example?




TS: And who is the one who gave conspiracy such a bad name anyhow?
------------------

heresyarch writes: 2:59 PM
H: Most conspiracies are false. Those who filter their whole world view through them is why they develop bad names....be it the Branch Davidians, Peoples Temple...er, Jim Jones loonies,Heaven's gate cult...or the latest fad, Bush Derangement Syndrome regarding the twin towers. CFR, Tri Lateral Commission, the Bildebergers, floride in tooth paste...Mel Gibson covers many of them nicely in his movie Conspiracy Theory.
--------------------
ts:
So this means there are no conspiracies?
You do not believe the CFR exists? Bilderbergers? Tri-Lateral Commission?

You do not think Edward House was a real person?
Either you know a lot about this and want it hidden, or just ignorant of it all.

None of the religious kooks could be called a conspiracy, they were very openly nuts.
The only conspiracy in the Waco affair comes from the Reno "justice" Department and cover-up of all the government crimes.


Thats like saying the nut house if full of conspiracies to call the Davidians and such conpiracists.

Want a real example, try Lenin and western bankers who backed him, that was a real conspiracy.
Other examples abound.



Hilarious



Heresyarch writes: The NAU has been explicitly denied by both Bush, and the brains....Robert Pastore.
-----------

Its called denial for a reason.
Very very very bad time for either to admit what both are working for.
And Pastor for over 30 years, read his books.


Here is what Robert Pastor wrote
In 2004, before he denied it today.

----------

North America's Second Decade
Robert A. Pastor
From Foreign Affairs, January/February 2004







Summary: In just ten years, NAFTA has created the world's most formidable free trade area. But in the absence of true partnerships and multilateral institutions, movement toward further regional integration has slowed. The United States, Mexico, and Canada have many common interests; they need to pursue them in common ways.

Robert A. Pastor is Professor of International Relations and Director of the Center for North American Studies at American University. He is the author of Toward a North American Community: Lessons from the Old World for the New.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040101faessay83112/robert-a -pastor/
north-america-s-second-decade.html

If it is a conspiracy, its an open one and has been for many years, dating back perhaps hundreds of years.

Or is anyone dumb enough to claim there is no vision for a one world government?
This is just one small part of it all.

You Think That This Is Good For Us
Even if you are not willing to accept a one world conspiracy theory, think about the greater separation of the cases this is going to produce.

Mexico already is divided and they want to keep it that way.
A rich elitist group controls the wealth of the country.
They are not willing to invest in education and healthcare, so what do they do, they send them to us to provide jobs, education and healthcare.

If this agreement is successful, you will see a greater separation of the cases in America.
America will become a world trader, not producer. We will be buying from poor countries and passing the produces on.
Somebody is going to make money, but you will see the middle case slowly disappear.

We are already in a very dangerous position.
We get far too much of our essential goods from somewhere else.

no doubt about the NAU/SPP agenda
Some like to say that the NAU/SPP agenda is just a conspiracy theory by nativist, protectionist anti-free traders. Actually, here is info pushing for it directly from Presidente Jorge Bush:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050323-1. html
http://www.spp.gov/

some truths about it all:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://stopspp.com/stopspp/?page_id=11

Jorge Bush made speeches down in Mexico earlier this year where he committed to work for THEM (Mexicans!) to assure so-called comprehensive immigration reform (Scamnesty) in America. Jorge, Sen Juan McQuisling, and Sanctuary City Rudy are simply globalist, open borders devotees. Some RINOS foolishly fathom that they can garner some of the ILLEGAL vote, but they will vote 10:1 for big entitlement govt.-- and America will rapidly morph into a third world barrio.

Join the fight now to save our country while we still can. Here is the site for the group which derailed the Scamnesty Bill (for now) in June, and one where you can readily contact people in Congress; bookmark them and speak your mind out OFTEN-- AMERICA IS TOO PRECIOUS TO LOSE!

http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

the source that Ms.S. cites
http://www.hudson.org/
http://www.hudson.org/files/documents/Hudson%20Negotiating% 20North%20America%20FINAL.pdf

The OP "phileo" was a boob-- the article she references is front and center at the Hudson web site under "New@Hudson." Denial is not just a river in Africa.

A key point to this as the article points out is that the largely clandestine agenda is artfully and willfully being effected below the public radar-- even Congress is substantially ignorant about it. How often are agendas fearful of sunshine act scrutiny good for us generally?

Why was Presidente Jorge Bush secretive about committing to send S.S. funds south to Mexico 2 years ago? Why is the U.S. Government lobbying for an ILLEGAL (who raped and murdered 2 American girls and confessed to same) before the U.S. Supreme Court this week? Why is the left in Congress trying to make voters and citizens of ILLEGALS who simply attend junior college for 2 years and give in-state tuition to same? (Dream Act) Why are the desires of 72% of americans to seal the border and crack down on ILLEGALS ignored?
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/imm igration_bill_failure_proves_rasmussen_s_first_law_of_polit ics

slwerner....
SW: "But, that’s not what you really want, now is it?"

H: Yes, let's have all of my requirements met first. It IS EXACTLY what I want...what are YOU talking about? I have posted in the past on one message board....not expecting you to know this....that I WANT a damn fence built and borders secured. So you can't get a post in without labelling me a "neocon"...well, isn't that original....as bugs bunny says.....what a "maroon".

The rest of your BS is just racist stereotypes...as though there are no hard working, ethical mexicans worth of immigration. You are an embarassment to conservatism, and you give conservatism a bad name. But with your mocking of God, you are probably not a conservative.

BTW, God is all powerful. Mexico IS a cesspool because many including the government IS godless. If there are no entitlements...no free education and health care....no minimum age working laws,,,, the US will be less attractive to those who only want a free lunch.

The US SHOULD be open to anyone not expecting a free lunch, and is willing to work HARD, a BIBLICAL ethic.

Now, lets see if you can debate ME rather than the strawman of me you have erected.

talent scout....
Heresyarch writes: The NAU has been explicitly denied by both Bush, and the brains....Robert Pastore.
-----------

TS: "Its called denial for a reason.
Very very very bad time for either to admit what both are working for.
And Pastor for over 30 years, read his books."

Well now, this response is exactly predictable. I guess we are back to calling this a conspiracy theory, now, aren't we.

conspiracy theory definition from the American Heritage Dictionary website: A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.



Yes, there are tons of conspiracy theories out there. Big whoop....

One true conspiracy....the belief by elitist they can create a Utopia...the "city of Man". Its the tower of Babel syndrome, salvation is obtained by man's efforts....most liberals and many conservatives are apart of it without realizing it..that's how secret IT is....the belief in homo mensura, materialism is all there is....we are the ubermensch....man's will to power,.....the heart of public education thanks to Horace Man, James Dewey....we are God....the oldest lie of the book....result of the fall.

Yes, I do believe in this conspiracy, and that Robert Pastore is part of this....maybe without his knowing it....Read Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis.


Talent Scout....
Regarding your one world government and the conspiracy lasting hundreds of years....

Look: Every time man tries to build its tower of babel...one world government or whatever...which there will be those who *will* attempt to do....God will foil their efforts.

Every TIME.

Roman Empire....Third Reich....Alexander....The bigger the empire...the harder the fall.

It ain't gonna happen....unless it is a house built by the Lord. I am NOT saying that the US can't fall.....by its godlessness....(even you seem to not give proper credit to God)....the fall of the US is not uncertain. I do believe God brought muslims here to knock down the towers of NY.

slwerner and Talent Scout
Their argument include:

1) Fear the bumbling stumbling idiot President Bush, when he is incapable of even executing a war in Iraq, or reforming social security, or controlling government spending. But Bush ISa brilliant mastermind of a covert plan to undermine the US constitution and the legislative and judicial branches of government. And see the goof Bush is such an idiot he forgot to appoint progressives to the US Supreme Court which would have facilitated his plan of the NAU and the dreaded Amero.

Another great argument of slwerner and Talent Scout
2) Fear are government's sinister motives building a NASCO super highway, but TRUST the same government to create isolationists measures by setting up more trade barriers, to protect specific jobs at greater consumer expense.

Just love your lefty logic slwerner, and TS.








More Marxism from foxfire22...
This board is starting to sound more and more Marxist:

"If this agreement is successful, you will see a greater separation of the cases in America."

I am thinking your "cases" is really "classes".

Productivity gains and technology have made world wide manufacturing jobs decline.....that pesky computer just does do away with jobs. But this has also benefitted in lower prices.

Economics is not a fixed sized pie.....its an every growing pie that continues to grow with every growing intellectual property, increased productivity. the actual mean hours the average person works has actually DECREASED over the years. More people own multiple TVs, multiple Cars per family, cell phones on teenagers...a thought impossible 30 years ago.

But I know y'all are dying to go back to the days when one farmer could only produce enough food for maybe 2 people.


Here is lodestar's first link
in reader's digest form:

Lodestar writes:
"no doubt about the NAU/SPP agenda
Some like to say that the NAU/SPP agenda is just a conspiracy theory by nativist, protectionist anti-free traders. Actually, here is info pushing for it directly from Presidente Jorge Bush:"

The sinister link:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050323-1. html

Section 1: Improved Productivity
sub1: Regulatory Cooperation to Generate Growth
sub2: Sectoral Collaboration to Facilitate Business
sub3: Investing in Our People
Section 2: Reduce the Cost of Trade
sub1: Efficient Movement of Goods
sub2: Efficient Movement of People
Section 3: Enhance the quality of Life
sub1: Joint Stewardship of our Environment
sub2: Creating a Safer and More Reliable Food Supply while Facilitating Agricultural Trade
sub3: Protect Our People from Disease

Section 4: Abolishing the US Constition
sub1: Impeaching the present Supreme Court
sub2: Denying the US people their right to address grievances.

Section 5: Eliminating the US Currency and establishing the Amero
sub2: Hyper inflating the US dollar


Wow! They left off Section's 4 and 5? How dare they!!



slwerner...
Just one more thing.....

I see your problem with Mexicans is partially racist as well as econimic. I abhor La Raza as much as I abhor your stereotypes, and what they stand for. As for entitlements, I am on record for eliminating Public education, all property taxes, death taxes, tariffs, and the like....the government should not come close to even what God requires ... that is 10% of your income to run itself with very limited bounaries.

I am free trade advocate...which you and Talent Scout have concluded means we have to give up our sovereignty to obtain. Many of my *economic* principles are libertarian simply because the bible is economically libertarian 1Sam8, and pro-capitalistic (the last 5 commandments ot the 10 commandments assume private property of one kind or another). Lets see for once if you can try to debate me on these points.

1 of 3
Lets see for once if you can try to debate me on these points.

Heresyarch – “So you can't get a post in without labelling me a "neocon"...well, isn't that original”

Is that a denial? Seems being labeled as such is a “hot button” for you. Too close to home?

Heresyarch – “I have posted in the past on one message board....”

And President Bush has spoken of support for border enforcement, yet fails to act. He is unwilling to pardon border officers who shot a drug smuggler (a “good shoot”, BTW), yet suddenly believes the US must bow to international courts whims to save the life of a brutal rapist/double-murdering Mexican national.

The point is, one can “say” just about anything. One’s actions are a better indication of what they truly believe. You may have posted on message boards, but your criticism of those who see a problem with the idea of an NU would seem to indicate your full support of it, of Bush, and of the open-border demands of the Mexican government.

Heresyarch – “You are an embarassment to conservatism, and you give conservatism a bad name.” & “Just love your lefty logic slwerner”

So, which is it? Or should I say ,” So you can't get a post in without labeling me a "conservative & a lefty"...well, isn't that original....as bugs bunny says.....what a "maroon".”

Heresyarch – “But with your mocking of God…”

I wasn’t mocking God, I was mocking your ridiculous assertion that Mexicans need to come to the US in order to be blessed, and (while I may be wrong) what I perceive to be your belief that God will bless those who “deserve” it. Thus, the “why not bless them in Mexico – don’t they deserve it?” tact.

2 of 3
Heresyarch - “Fear the bumbling stumbling idiot President Bush..”

I’ve never written that Bush is an idiot. While he certainly sounds like one when he speaks in public, he is a Yale grad, who did as well in school that arrogant, yet articulate, John Kerry. Further, I don’t fear Bush – rather, I believe his policy directions should be open to scrutiny and criticism, without those who would do so being labeled conspiracy theorists (which, BTW, sounds like a response that Karl Rove would be proud of).


Heresyarch – “I see your problem with Mexicans is partially racist as well as econimic.”

My problem with illegal Mexican immigrants is CULTURAL. I personally know many people who are of Mexican ancestry who are great people. However, I can clearly see that the ones who’ve come here illegally (whether they are hard working or not) have brought with them a host of social ills – much of which can be traced to their culturally indoctrinated contempt for the Unites States, us gringos, and our silly laws. As far as debating this point, I could spend way to many hours posting links to all sorts of evidence of this (or, you could just turn on your local news) – but your mind is closed. They are God’s children, so they cannot be guilty of any misdeeds. It’s all just another conspiracy theory that illegal aliens commit crimes. And, anyone who has the gall to notice that they do is therefore a racist. (Again, this line of reasoning is in keeping with the Bush administration/Neocon’s rhetoric).

3 of 3
You may not be a Neocon, but you sure come of sounding like one. You may be for border enforcement and the rule of law, but that would often be counter to your other stated belief that anything that improves trade and “grows” the economy is a good thing. Then there’s your belief that they should be here, so as to be blessed. How do you propose to close the border yet have them come here?


Rather than debate – since I doubt either of us will give an inch on this one; perhaps you’d address these scenarios for me:

1)An illegal Mexican alien gets drunk and violently assaults someone while in the US. He is a good worker, and has a family to support. Should he be deported, or does his “value” to the economy and his family’s needs, along with his status as one of God’s children, earn him a second chance?

2) A Mexican national, illegally in the US, rapes and brutally murders two 15-year old girls in Texas. Should he be subject to the same death penalty one-time governor George bush was all too willing to uphold for others? Or should the US bow to an international governing body and commute his sentence?

You still there, heresyarch
It seems that now Pat Buchanan has joined the conspiracy to paint Bush as a globalist (http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2007/10/12/george_w_bush,_globalist).

Maybe you'll want to hurry over to that thread and alert everyone posting there that they are a bunch of conspiracy-theorists and are willfully disobeying the 11th commandment - to honor Bush and always believe he's doing the right thing.

heresyarch
heresyarch writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 1:52 PM
More Marxism from foxfire22...

Foxfire:

What did he do to get recognition in the discussion?

Simply put, I’m just saying that if we keep going like we are, we are soon going to be in Mexico’s position.

Sure we have greater technology, more products to buy.
What you haven’t expounded on is how much less the dollar buys today.
You haven’t touched on the huge debt that most people are in.
The fact that there assets aren’t worth what they paid for them.

There’s no value backing the dollar. The economy that we are enjoying is fragile.
You will see just how fragile if a Hillary gets elected.

I have always been in favor of tax cuts for business. When industry is healthy and making money, I have a job, and I’m making money.

When you regulate and tax the RICH business man( $100,000-$1000,000) as the Dem’s say, he takes his tools and goes home or he passes his costs on to you, which is bad either way.

I wouldn’t call what I support Marxism.
I may not understand the fine points of economics, but I have work all my life.

slwerner....
Still labelling me a neocon, eh?

Let's see. I am strongly leaning in the Ron Paul camp, at least for the primaries...seeing that he probably doesn't have a snowball's chance to win. Would a neocon support Ron Paul? Is Ron Paul a neocon?

You are a real genius. Strike 1.

The fact is, you still don't comprehend me on immigration, although I have stated enough of my beliefs for you to piece it through.

The fact is:
I want the borders secured 1st. I have never NOT stated that. As the border is now, we have anything and everyone walking across them. Would I support Ron Paul?

My attitude towards "liberalizing" immigration policy is because the government has 2 problems:
1) they have an artificial floor. I am not for government ceilings or floors on anything in the market place. (got it?....I am a free market economic libertarian kind of guy). I am also against minimum wage laws, and minimum age working laws, etc. You eliminate these artificial floors, along with the minimum wage laws, and entitlements (health care, and education), the pace of illegals will drop.

As to "my ridiculous assertion that Mexicans need to come to the US in order to be blessed", show me where I said that. I said that aliens would gravitage towards a prosperous nation....My exact words were, "A rich country will attract aliens". Or does too much common sense fly in your face. This is the "Land of Opportunity, No?" Strike 2.

slwerner...
1) Illegal alien violently assaults someone....Sentenced, and then deported, never to be allowed access to our country.

2)Brutal murder, death penalty.

Not hard to figure out my stance on those if you have a biblical background.

slwerner....
Bush a globalist? Probably so. I have stated over and over that I believe that Bush is naive. He gets bad advice, probably from inside globalists, too. I *do* hold to the Bush belongs to the idiot privileged, class....that Bush is incapable being a mastermind in orchestrated wild genius conspiracies to undermine our nation's sovereignty. Many of his immigration policies are just bad.

I react strongly to the folks that call Bush a "liar", and a "traitor", and 9-11 orchestrator. I don't believe he is either. His policies are simply naive....he's a do-gooder...almost a useful idiot. He has almost no ideaology that I can tell, now, or when he was governor of Texas. Certainly, everything about him, from his politics to his conservatism, to his Christianity, is purely naive. About 1" of depth to it. I don't believe for a second that what he thinks he is doing undermines US sovereignty, or leads to a NAU. I believe he, like me is a committed free trade kind of guy, and would like to see government regulations as far out of the way as possible. Ironically, Ron Paul, an advocate of tough border security, is also a free trader.


I voted for Bush twice for president, although, I was never inspired by him, but I have no regrets... It was really a vote against Kerry and Gore who I find despicable. I'll reluctantly have to vote *against* Hillary, too. Before Bush, I supported Alan Keyes . Prior to that , I supported the US Taxpayer Party candidate, Howard Philips....actually voted for him since Clinton was announced president before I got to the voting booth.


foxfire22....
You are the one who brought up "classes", and how these are going to be more segregated. A complete myth. I'm still waiting for that giant sucking sound that Ross Perot promised.


"What you haven’t expounded on is how much less the dollar buys today.
You haven’t touched on the huge debt that most people are in.
The fact that there assets aren’t worth what they paid for them."

Rather than having me parrot a bunch of facts that totally debunk your assertions, I recommend two books.

1) "Myths of Rich and Poor, Why we're Better off than we think"
by W. Michael Cox, and Richard Alm.

2) "Income and Wealth"
by Alan Reynolds.




foxfire....
BTW, if you are NOT in favor government policy that is of the Robin Hood variety, "steal from the rich, and give to the poor", then you are not a Marxist.

The middle class is in no danger of disappearing. If you look at how "middle class" is defined by those who submit its disappearing, its those who have an income in the 30K-60K range or something like that (don't recall the exact numbers, but those are in the ballpark). What statistics show, inflation adjusted, is that those in that income bracket has definitely decreased, but as Alan Reynolds points out, far more moved out of that middle class bracket, by moving up....not down.

this only proves that 1) you can lie with statistics, 2) the definition of "middle class" by that standard is inadequate.

Phyllis, Phyllis, Phyllis
Para-noia is not just a couple of noias.

When
the proposed Equal Rights Amendment was up for ratification, Schafley convinced conservatives that if it passed, women and men would have no privacy in public bathrooms, in war women would be sent to the front to fight, Women wouldn't get time off for giving birth (they'd have to do it in one of those bathrooms with men in them), abd the country would go up in flames.

This is the thing she's best at - paranoid fear.

one last correction...
foxfire22....

when I state that:

"that those in that income bracket has definitely decreased, but as Alan Reynolds points out, far more moved out of that middle class bracket, by moving up....not down."

If I recall....don't have the "Income and Wealth" book handy...that Reynals say that those under the 30K mark actually decreased....didn't mean to imply by this artificial definition that there is greater separation. The fact is, incomes are dynamic, and all kinds of folk move up and down through tax brackets depending on their position in life. Generally, you move up until retirement.

slwerner....
One final post before I will check on Monday for anything worth of response.

I am no Pat Buchanan fan....nor am I a President George Bush fan....Buchanan is an isolationist in my book.

The only president I have really supported in my lifetime was Reagan.
He is still what I consider to be the best president of this century...but still fell far short of what I would like to see.

heresyarch


heresyarch, reasonable comment. I could be wrong.

All that I can tell you for sure is that I have never paid less than 15% -17% taxes. I have never gotten more that a few hundred back at the end of the year.

My children or I have always had to pay for college because of income.

Though I've made more and maybe have more comforts, it seems like the dollar buys less value.

Some people make out and some don't.

Maybe it's how we perceive things.

We do live better when you look at what we have compared to 60 years ago.
I not sure that we are as content as we were 60 years ago.

I agree that my income moved up considerable as a skilled craft employee, but it appears to me that though the comforts of life increased, the quality of life decreased.
At the end of my career I worked longer hours, paid more for services because of all the technological advancements.

Once again, that could be me, but how most of us view life, through our own eyes.

By no means do I believe that the rich should have to pay so that the standard of the poor can be raised.

I believe in a society that is willing to provide the tools necessary for you to succeed, in other words, education. If you sit on your butt, I’d let you starve.

I’m far from being a Marxist. I am a Reagan Republican. I believe that Capitalism is what creates wealth, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, transportation, electricity.

Socialism breeds laziness, poverty for all but the elitists who run the system.
It’s a wander that socialist can convince the middle class to keep working to provide for those with no incentive to improve there condition.
Sad thing is that Socialist countries want to keep it that way.

Unworthy response to heresayarch, 1 of 3
doubtfully worthy of you omniscient greatness, but...

heresyarch - "Still labelling me a neocon, eh?

Let's see. I am strongly leaning in the Ron Paul camp,"

Not having given him the time of day previously, I've just read through a number of Ron Paul's writings, and guess what? He and I seem to be in fairly close agreement when it comes to our views on the problems associated with illegal immigration - including the problems created by those immigrants themselves.

And, yet, when I brought up the multitude of ills their culture (and the lawlessness we see manifested), you quickly labeled me a "RACIST".

You know what other group does the exact same thing? Immigration enthusiast, like those who make up the ranks of the so called "neocons". They refuse to face the fact that there is a problem, a very real and very big problem, with the behaviors of the increasing numbers of Latino illegal immigrants. They don't wish to have to answer those who see a problem with their calls for even more immigration in light of the current ills we already face. So, rather than engage in substantive debate, they seek to shut down their opposition by smearing naysayer’s with the dreaded "racist" label.

You seem to invoke Christianity as a rational not to think ill of immigrant criminality for even a moment. I wonder, would you have employed that same line of thinking to excuse the actions of the German National Democratic Socialists from 1936 to 1944? (Note, just so you understand, this is intended as a rhetorical question - not to mock God) Were not they also God's children?

And, while you did not directly state that God would bless immigrants simply because they came here, you certainly seem to be implying that when you write "Now you may call this "cheap labor" that will only benefit the rich, but I call it the land of opportunity, that will prosper simply because God will bless it."

Unworthy response to heresayarch, 2 of 3
Now, while you may have intended to suggest that the country overall would be the beneficiary, it still seems to suggest that the blessings will accrue because of the immigrants (as opposed to in spite of them), and that they too will obviously enjoy those blessings.

But, I’m sure, heresyarch, you are only all too aware that the US itself has become corrupt - especially when one considers what would be called "social" elements.

I don't know how you could have missed it, but, Homosexual activists actually did mock God on the streets of San Francisco recently. The political leaders of both major parties now openly flaunt the laws of both God and man. All manners of perversion are now called normal and acceptable “lifestyle” choices. And, let’s not forget the law-breaking of the immigrants themselves.

Why then should it be that God will bless when even more laws are ignored?

I’d also like to take some issue with you as to just what you consider “blessing”. It would seem as though you are focusing on financial increase. I would hold that God’s true blessings are seldom monetary.

As to the “cheap labor” of immigrants, money truly is the root of evil. As I pointed out before, only a select few who employ them (for less than they would otherwise have to pay citizens) stand to see any appreciable financial benefit. And, the little bit of “blessing” that accrues to the immigrant labor’s themselves comes at a high cost to other taxpaying (not to mention equally hard working) citizens, both in terms of the governmental “benefit” outlays, and in terms in the pain and suffering citizens must endure do to the criminality of a great many of these immigrants.

Unworthy response to heresayarch, 3 of 3
And, further, the “gains” of those immigrants who come here for a better life will not pass to their children. Fresh waves of immigrant labors will continuously “underbid” the citizen children of the previous generation of immigrants. Having largely eschewed the “free” education offered them, they will be ill-equipped for work beyond labor. And, expecting minimum-wage, the profiteers who can hire illegal’s for a fraction of that meager wage are unlikely to give them a second look.

Where will their “blessings” come from? Already we are seeing the increase in gang and drug activities amongst the second generation.

It would have been better that God had blessed their parents in their homeland, rather than “bless” the crooked employers here who are to blame for luring them here.

Again, I’ll pose to you the serious theological question as to why does God not bless the poor in our neighboring countries to make those homelands more honest, more profitable, and more livable?

And, why should God “bless” the few who profiteer on the pseudo-slave labor of immigrants here, at the substantial cost of increasing corruption, less profitability, and less livability?

I’ll check back on Monday to see if you consider my question worthy of your time to respond.


heresayarch?
So, you didn't find anything worth responding to?

Or, is it that you couldn't come up with a worthy response of your own?
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