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Tuesday, August 14, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Americans need China-free food
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The scandal of imported products from China has accelerated to a level that the public should demand "China-free" labels on anything that goes into a mouth. This includes not only food, vitamins and medicines but toothpaste and toys which, as all parents know, go into children's mouths.

The U.S. recall of nearly 1 million toys sold by Fisher-Price, because its paint contains excessive amounts of lead, is only the latest in a string of Chinese product safety scandals. Those toys are Fisher-Price's multimillion-dollar mistake, but the safety of food and drugs is a government responsibility; that's why there is a U.S. Food and Drug Administration. The Chinese government's response was, first, to deny the problem, then, to execute its top food and drug regulator. Sorry, that doesn't assuage our anxiety.

It would take a couple of generations and many billions of dollars to bring Chinese food up to U.S. health and safety standards. Nearly half of China's population lives without sewage treatment, and the water isn't safe, whether from the tap or in the sea or a pond.

The Chinese food scandal first came to public attention this spring when cats and dogs in the United States died. The FDA discovered that pet food processed in the United States and Canada used wheat flour from China contaminated with melamine, a chemical used to make plastics and fertilizers that fooled testers with false high protein readings.

The FDA announced an extensive recall of 100 pet food brands, but nobody asked the question, why is the United States importing wheat products? Can America possibly be short of wheat?

The U.S. Department of Agriculture said that as many as 20 million chickens and thousands of hogs in several states may have been fed contaminated feed. In May, 900,000 tubes of toothpaste imported from China were withdrawn because tests showed that glycerine had been replaced by diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze. This poisoned toothpaste has turned up in U.S. hospitals, prisons, and juvenile detention centers.

The United States imports 80 percent of the seafood consumed by Americans, and China is the largest foreign source. The FDA says that a quarter of the shrimp coming from China contains antibiotics that are not allowed in U.S. food production and cannot be eliminated by cooking.

The FDA rejected 51 shipments of catfish, eel, shrimp, and tilapia because of contaminants such as salmonella, veterinary drugs, and a cancer-causing chemical called nitrofuran.

China raises most of its fish in water contaminated with raw sewage, and China compensates by using dangerous drugs and chemicals, many of which are banned in the United States. The Chinese try to control the spread of bacterial infections, disease and parasites by pumping the food with antibiotics and the waters with pesticides.

Chicken pens are often suspended over ponds where seafood is farmed, recycling chicken feces as fish food.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture wants to allow China to sell cooked (but not raw) chickens to the U.S. even though public health officials have warned for several years about a potential avian influenza pandemic. Doesn't the United States have enough chickens?

China exports more than 80 percent of the world's vitamin C, which is put in thousands of processed foods from fruit drinks to applesauce to granola, and is used as a key food preservative. There is no claim of contamination yet, but many worry about dependence on China, which has driven all U.S. competitors out of business.

Last year, China sold $675 million in pharmaceutical ingredients and products to the United States. It is estimated that 20 percent of finished generic and over-the-counter drugs, and 40 percent of the active ingredients for pills come from China or India.

The United States long ago banned lead in paint because it can cause learning disabilities, kidney failure, anemia and irreversible brain damage in children. But lead is widely used in Chinese manufacturing, and 80 percent of toys sold in the United States come from China.

Every one of the 24 kinds of toys recalled for safety reasons in the U.S. so far this year was manufactured in China. Because of lead paint, the U.S. has recalled hundreds of thousands of children's necklaces, bracelets, earrings, charms, rings, toy drums, and 1.5 million Thomas & Friends wooden trains. Other recalled products include a ghoulish fake eyeball toy filled with kerosene, Easy-Bake Ovens that could trap children's fingers and burn them, and 450,000 tires that lacked an essential safety feature called a gum strip to keep the belts of a tire from separating.

The FDA inspects 1 percent of our imports from China. It's not realistic to believe that doubling or tripling the inspection rate would make any significant difference in the safety of foods or toys.

Nor would FDA on-site inspection of producers in China be practical. When FDA investigators visited China in May, they found factories closed, machinery dismantled, and records destroyed.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Why are we doing business with
a country that has proven over and over that they believe that life is cheap?

The heads of corporations were brought up in an educational environment that kept devaluing life as well, and now they approach the science of echonomics from a purely amoral point of view.

They don't take pride in their work, don't take pride in their products, and don't take pride in their company name.

They only take pride in the heft of their pocketbook.

Amen
I never thought I would agree with Phyllis Schlafly about anything, but there you go. I have been posting my outrage that we import a) food that we could perfectly well grow here at home and b) food from countries with lousy regulation. I no longer buy anything edible from China, and frankly I'm not too sure about the rest of Asia---I rejected some Bangladeshi shrimp just the other day. Meanwhile a) I read that the US meat people have successfully managed not to obey the law to put country of origin on meat and b) also read that US standards for seafood are so low that when a shipment is rejected by a European port the shipper sends it to the USA. Beware, when you read the ingredients list on a package, of such catch-all phrases as "stabilizers" and "natural flavoring". Can mean anything. Also, read for yourself: I had the fish manager of my (large) supermarket lie through his teeth when I asked him about some frozen scallops a couple of weeks ago---he said they were from the USA and the package said C-H-I-N-A right on it.

This ought to be one issue that unites liberals and conservatives.

I know our corn is going for ethanol
but the wheat has me stumped. We are not STILL exporting grain to the soviet union (I mean, Russia - are we?)
Here's a conspiracy theory for you:
*THEY* weren't killing us off fast enough for the globalists...

By the way, will this POSSIBLY influence that darn *favored trading partner* deal??

lilly
Gotta agree. Just read that the head of the toy company commited suicide.

Let the market decide...
Americans already suffer from a government that is too intrusive in our lives. As many posters have stated before, there is not one area that government operates in that the private setor could not do with better results. Not only that, but free trade with no restrictions has opened up a world of opportunites for us, and China is now fast becoming a market for Amrican goods.

In this case, public safety is only being used as a red herring to disguise the true goal of the libtards, protectionism that will soon erode America's leadership of the global economy. The same FDA bureaucrats who make life so difficult for pharmaceutical companies and keep innovative drugs off the market because of their insistence on stringent tests are now working their magic on the American consumer, condemning us to a life without the low priced prducts we have come to enjoy. In fact, how is it that lefties can sacrifice American sovereignty at the altar of the UN and internationalist government, while enacting protectionist economic policies?

I say let the markets decide. The intelligent Ameican consumer would have eventually realized that something was wrong with Chinese products and without any governmental input, purchases of these products would have ceased. The Chinese would have then auomatically corrected the issue, as they would then be hit right in the pocket book. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the effects of lead-based paint are being overdramatized just like global warming, so that the moonbats can seize this opportunity to strentghen the power of the nanny state..

Hopelessly Naive
We've gone along for decades trading with China and it's only been within the past several months that we've had two completely unrelated incidents, one with pet food, the other with toys.

Suddenly, the sky is falling, China is BAD, and we want our people to boycott All Chinese products..........so then what? Have any of you any idea what this would really mean to our economy?

You stub your toe once in 40 years and suddenly you're ready to amputate your foot?

What a pack of naive crybabies we've become, just listen to yourselves whine and moan.

Get real, everyone is going to make mistakes and we haven't even scratched the surface in our own country unless moaning is an art form.

The Chinese aren't a bunch of dingbats, Loyal Conservative is exactly right, the market will prevail.

How about we concentrate on Social Security, Illegal Immigration, Medicare, Drunk Driving, obscene subsidies, even more obscene pork projects building bridges to nowhere and getting Al Gore off our backs. The Chinese know very well that they have to get with the program and have rather dramatic ways of dealing with it. They executed one guy, the other one committed suicide.

Does that make you happier?.




China is a sleeping giant.
Who do you think is providing the money for the US to go into debt? It's not just China, but China is a hugely major player. We are in no real position to tell them to clean up their act in terms of their exports, and they know it.

Liberal Protectionism
At least there's a few remaining conservatives, like Loyal Conservative, who stand in the face of liberal social cons like Schlafly advocating protectionist policies. We don't need bigger government making us pay higher prices. Let the market decide.

tragedy
the REAL tragedy is that this nation can't feed itself. we should be totally self-sifficient when it comes to feeding our population. what did we do before food imports?
oh, but interdependence globally is the foundation of the "one world order".
when the family farms were busted out in the 1980s, and the mega-ag businesses arose, we were told that this would produce more, better quality, and cheaper priced food! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! as usual, the joke is on the folks.

Democrats/Chinese
The Democrat (communist/nazi) party demands perfection out of American businesses but allows imperfection from their fellow communists foreign communists/nazis such as China.

Just label everything....
My attitude is simple, I will not knowingly eat anything that isn't either (a) from an (old) NATO country or (b) Kosher.

All I ask is that we expand the rule that the country in which the product was finshed in be expanded to include those countries from which the components came from. The current law was written a half century ago when products were made from local components and hence something "Made in Japan" had been made from Japanese parts.

And much as the Japanese once re-named a city "America" so that they could truthfully put "Made in America" on the products, the Chinese have realized that while Americans won't buy their products, they can be tricked into doing so if the products are finished elsewhere.

So just put the red star on anything with China in it and let us decide. And much as many would not purchase things made in Apartied South Africa for philosophical/political principles, so too with Chinese products...

Duncan Hunter on China

China's coming crisis...
I hear quietly from Chinese folk that the country is maybe 10 years from a major revolution. The government is widely seen as corrupt, it is loosing its abilty to control the populace, and open rebellion is growing.

The country even has a whole lot of Moslems of its own who are causing them considerable problems. And the biggest problem with the upcoming Olympics is attempting to get the public to stop using the streets as public toilets.

Where are the Reagan coonservatives?
Thomas Sowell often writes that pharmaceutical compamies should be allowed to bring innovative products on the market and the consumer should decide whether or not the benefit of said products is worth the risk. And the same should go for Chinese-made products. Should someone whose income is limited be forced to buy higher priced products simply because the government believes that Chinese-made products are dangerous? After all, lead based paints and gasolines were in use for many years before they were suddenly found to be harmful - yet generations of Americans grew up strong, healthy and willing to defend our Nation.

Someone could almost make a case that we've become a nation of wimps, hoping that BIg Brother government can protect our little fannies from all sorts of danger. Thyis country was not settled by waiting for government to do it, it was done by individuals willing to take risks. But we collectively want the government to do everything for us and as a result we're becoming a nation of softies. It's no wonder that the homosexuals, the feminists, the enviro-nuts and other whack-jobs are now setting the Nation's agenda. It is time for a renewal of the pioneer spirit of self-reliance so that we can reclaim the America of our forebearers.

This Makes Sense??
We import over fifty percent of our fertilizer from Russia, so we can grow corn to make ethanol, so we can drive to Wally World to buy our food produced in China. Isn't Uncle Sugar good to us???

China
Anything the USA imports from RED CHINA who hate our guts but loves our money is BELOW STUPID.

If we refuse
to import many of these tainted items, China will be forced to develop standards similar to ours. With that, costs of products will not be so cheap. Restless workers will add to costs by no longer being content with low wages. It is just the way of things.

To Loyal Conservative
"Let the market decide" is cold comfort to people who have already been harmed by unregulated imports. I saw a picture in the paper of dead children in their coffins after taking Chinese cough syrup---I believe this was in either Haiti or Panama. The point of regulation is to prevent dead children in the first place. And while, thank God, we didn't have dead children here over this issue, we did have plenty of dead pets. And, conservative base or no conservative base, I don't believe that the American people would be satisfied with a system that poisons first and says "OOooops" second. Remember that the Pure Food and Drug Law (and the resulting FDA) originally happened because people were disgusted with what was in food and drugs that were being marketed.

I understand your position and I don't disagree that the job of business is to make money. Please try to understand my position too, that sometimes the job of government is to protect the people. Let's be friends here.

"free market capitalism"
free market capitalists do not approve of making money off of dangerous products, and the free markets usually take care of the businesses which would market any dangerous products. just wait to see what happens to Mattel Corp and any others associated directly with Chinese, or any other, dangerous toys. it is likely to be a bad Christmas season given that many will opt for kids gifts other than toys.

Again, to Loyal Conservative
Call me a wimp (you already did) but I do not want to repeat the experience of my pioneer ancestors. Since I do genealogy, I happen to know something about how they died. One died of typhoid after he went to homestead on the western Kansas prairie in 1887, leaving a young wife and nine months-old baby (you wimpishly get typhoid from drinking infected milk or water or eating infected food). An uncle died of diphtheria at age 31 in 1861 leaving a young wife and three sons under six, two of whom soon died, as well, of diphtheria (it's contagious; nowadays we get wimpish shots against it). Another uncle died young of "a fever". An aunt died of botched surgery done by an unlicensed doctor. An old grandfather died of dysentery (bad food again). Two young aunts died in childbirth. Babies died all over the place. And if we could go back in time, we would see mouths full of rotten (or no) teeth, people who couldn't see without glasses, people crippled permanently from a broken bone that was never set, and folks chronically ill from malaria. The public health has improved because medicine and government have joined hands to protect us, thus turning us into a nation of wimps.

It's documented that chronic lead poisoning has affected children in our own time. Is that a good thing? Are children wimps for getting it? Google "Data Quality Act"---the Bush administration now allows the wood used in playground equipment construction to be prepared by soaking in arsenic. Can you imagine a child gnawing on a railing or banister? I can. How wimpish of him or her.

So you be macho, and I'll be a wimp, and I'll be healthy.

Loyal conservative...translation Idiot?
Since when did Loyal Conservative translate to Idiot? The American consumer has the right of 'choice'..."Label foods by law"...then we can decide if we want to eat contaminated, or poisoned foods from China or anywhere else...from a thinking conservative!

Pirate's Got It Right
Choose as an individual not to buy. That's the way the market should work, except some, like Lily, through good intentions, I'm sure, want government to choose for all, and, road so paved, suffer the consequences of higher prices. Not even a salt-water economist would argue protectionist schemes like this don't cost the one's it aims to protect.

Lily, the job of government is to protect our freedoms, that's what it's empowered to do, it's our job to protect our health and happiness.

Free trade
I am a proponent of free trade but we hardly have that here when the government imposes so many restrictions on companies and then taxes them to the hilt. (Those taxes are just a a cost of business, BTW, to be passed on to the consumer).

What really scares me is this:

http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=11085&formato=HTML

Talk about your "nuclear option."

China Free....
I do not think Lily is wanting the government to make our decisions....we, make the decision and tell our government to enforce what we want...does not always work without a lot of persistence...but the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease. I personally agree with ("China-free" labels on anything that goes into a mouth. This includes not only food, vitamins and medicines but toothpaste and toys which, as all parents know, go into children's mouths.) Not only China, any third world country, their cleanliness standards are just not up to par.

Correct
"purplestater writes: Tuesday, August, 14, 2007 4:48 AM
China is a sleeping giant.
Who do you think is providing the money for the US to go into debt? It's not just China, but China is a hugely major player. We are in no real position to tell them to clean up their act in terms of their exports, and they know it."

You are so right. We have put ourselves in a position where we no longer call the shots. Imagine borrowing a thousand bucks every day from your father and telling him what he can and can't do. Behind our backs, America has been turned into a 3rd World basket case. We borrow money from our enemies just to pay the interest on our national debt. We have to get our food from other countries, we buy parts for our military weaponry from other countries. And don't forget, we even buy our oil from sworn enemies of this country.

Thomas Jefferson and Otto Von Hapsburg don't have much in common, but they both realized one truism. A country that is not self sufficient is doomed, and we have purposely, and stupidly, in the name of globalization, put ourselves into a position of depending on our enemies for our own well being. The final cost is yet to be realized.

John Konop
For once you cut and pasted something I like and have already seen. I have to admit that when i first started paying real close attention to Hunter I was surprised(pleasantly)at how firm of a grasp he has on that situation.

For God's Sake
Do you mean to tell me that Conservatives can be blind enough to be willing to chance tainted food for the sake of "free trade?"

The US needs to inspect ALL foods being imported into this country and reject ANY not up to par. If the country sending the rejects continues to send them then bar them from imports until they can pass inspections. We need to mark ALL foods with country of origin, not just country of manufacture.

For God's sake, people, this kind of attitude can kill you and your children. This is not the way a REAL Conservative thinks.

China
Yes it is true that Chinas enables our debt. However it is equally true that China is very dependent on us for food and jobs. It is time to start weaning ourselves off of China and put the squeeze on them. China is not now nor have they ever been our friend since they went communist. They have undermined in just about every effort on the world stage because the day we pulled out of Nam was the day they no longer feared us.

Start by refusing to buy any goods made in China. Many are owned by Americans, but Americans have a self preservation instinct. If China no longer becomes the way to make money they will come back home.

china
they allegedly have 18 of the 20 most polluted ities in the world. Under Mao they merely starved the peasants, now they are destroying their health so that a very few are making millions, while they rest have shorten life spans. If trhey have no concern for their own people, not that they ever did, but why would anyone think that health concerns for their enemies would have any more importance than draining our wealth to fund the quest for world dominance.

Not about china, it's about Wally World

Well now, it seems the Left Unionist Liberals can't bring down Wal-Mart Legally, so, bring down China in popular opinion.

As Bman says China is Wal-Mart main supplier.
,

Sorry lily...
But enacting protectionist policies in the US and setting off a trade war with China won't do anything to help the "dead childen...in Haiti or Panama". All it will do is allow the Chinese to cry foul about unfair trade practices and they will enact their own protectionism. All the while they will continue to sell tainted products to the rest of the world.

However, if US consumers volunarily stopped purchasing chinese products (i.e. allowing the free market to work), the chinese would have no recourse but to clean up their act. By keeping the government out of the picture, they can no longer play the 'victim card', but are still hit directly in their bottom line.

So instead of demanding that "the government do something", why don't you do something yourself? Demand that your local grocer display the country of origin on their meat and produce. A number of grocery stores here have started doing that (without a government mandate! Gotta love Texas!) so their customers know exactly what they are getting.

Who is asking why?
I just heard this morning a few words from the CEO of Mattel toys. He sounded just like a politician. We shouldn't be afraid of buying any Mattel toys because they are looking out for us, or so he says.

Didn't we used to produce toys in the U.S.? And, then the owners got greedy for bigger bucks and sent these manufacturing jobs overseas to cash in on child/slave labor wages? China does not have quality control as a major issue with their products. They don't think the way the U.S. does about product safety and how our children need to be safe from faulty toys, etc.

I was in a store the other day where they were pushing the sale of shrimp from China. I was stunned. I said to my husband, (overheard by several customers standing nearby) that I would NEVER knowingly buy any food stuffs from China. I noticed other potential customers walking away from the display. The only way we can fight this situation is to refuse to buy products manufactured/shipped/grown in China. I would also venture to say that for our little granddaughter's birthday today, she will receive books, certainly not any toys.

"China is the largest producer ...
... of tomatoes in the world, followed by the USA, Italy, and Turkey."

http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/Trends2000/tomatoes.htm

To Lilly...
Certainly I do not wish death or disfigurement to anyone. But tell me how the government's response to this is any better than the market response. Wouldn't quack doctors be exposed immediately once the market caught on to their inadequacies? Erring on the side of caution does not protect as much as muffle innovation and creativity that defines America. In fact, by proper labeling of risk, we could do away with the FDA entirely - make all drugs over the counter and let the consumer use his judgment, or the collective experience of the market to decide what drugs are needed and how much.

While you and other liberals may think that the government-led recall of Chinese toys may have prevented developmental problems in kids, what it really did was stifle American innovation. Perhaps someone in the market would have created a homemade lead-testing kit which would have been able to detect lead-based paints. Then families would know the risks up front. Instead, nanny government always steps in, attempting to regulate everything and trying to tell Americans what's best for them.

America was built on the unshakable faith in the free market. And what you and other libs suggest is that sometimes the free market may not be the most efficient means of disseminating information, particularly if there are mortal or long-term dangers involved. That perhaps information may be needed faster than the free market can provide it to prevent tragedies. Well you can say that all you want. Because ultimately, choice-limiting government is always wrong, and the free market always gets it right.

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter is brave enough, and wise enough, to challenge Most Favored Nation China on their cheating ways. Free Trade, under the Neocons, has turned into,"Whatever you're selling, Good Buddy, we're buying!" The wisdom of an American stance, rather than passive acceptance, is embodied only in Mr. Hunter. Duncan Hunter is A Straight Shooter. Duncan Hunter Walks The Walk.

Loyal Conservative is Right
Right on loyal conservative! If people believe that Chinese products are unsafe, they are free to avoid them by buying American products. But that does not give them the right to stop me from buying the products that I want to buy. Any these people call themselves conservatives?

bill
of course consumers have far more power than the gov to determine which products we will or won't buy, Regulating safety is an important issue. If the chinese are persuing the sales regardless of the risk, once unsafe products are shipped to american consumers and recalled you place the onus and expense on the chinese to prove that further shipments of that or similar commodities are safe for the consumer. Unfortunately the chinese have been using the rest of the world as a dumping ground for unsafe and shoddy products but also producing inexpensive goods the world wants but no longer produces domestically. We are in somewhat of a quandary

Bman
I never said it would be easy. Suck it up and pay the 1.10 for the widget. In my experience it is more expensive in the short term but less expensive in the long term.

Ratt
yeah they WalMart's main supplier. along with Target, Kohl's, Macy's, Kmart and the corner grocery store. Quit lying to yourself.

It's called
tightening your belts folks. Even if you don't succeed in buying no chinese products just cutting it dramatically would send a loud message. Every time you buy Chinese you are propping up communism, and as I read today slavery, but you are also enabling our govt. to let them buy our debt and keep us over a barrel.

Communists have never had problem with screwing people. Communism mentality is "I got mine, who cares if you get yours!" Human Rights? What's that?

Scratching my head in the heartland . .
One of the pet food companies that was caught up in the recent problems with tainted wheat gluten is located here in Kansas where I live.

Think about it . . . the U.S. produces more wheat than any country in the world. Kansas produces the most wheat of any state in the U.S. However, a Kansas pet food company turns to China to get wheat products . . . is it really that much cheaper? There are fields of wheat within a mile of this company . . .

I'm all for free trade, but at times, I wonder about the logic of globalization when we have so much of what we need here at home.

Lolo, please note

lolo
I may have been a certified computer expert 50 to 60 years ago, but you can see that these days I am like a Model T Ford mechanic trying to work on your new Caddy.

I can send Emails to some, but not to you, you can send to me, so check your spam file, or look below the photo for my phone number.

Dump Chinese
One of the cash crops of Louisiana is crawfish. Several years ago, China entered our market selling their crawfish well below the price Louisiana farmers got. Even had a tariff attached. The Chinese assured us that their product was farmed in the most "sanitary" of conditions.

I haven't been able to find the Chinese crawfish lately. Have not heard anything the the local media about the Chinese crawfish. But I assume, and have all along, that this product does not stand up to our standards. Never did. I'm reading labels and putting Chinese products back.

Bman
Sorry! I didn't mean to sound so catty! Please forgive and I promise never ever to answer another post to you after slamming the Village Idiot.

Clusiana
Learn something new everyday. I didn't know it was possible to farm crawfish. Thanks for the info.

bman
the tea plantation is actually a nice short visit. They market a charleston variety. Take a run out to John's Island to see the place. It is quite interesting and there is also a nearby winery so you can do both in an afternoon.

Bman
We found a backdoor way to do it. He sent me to another place where he has an email address listed.

wildwest
UGHHHHHH...As one who lives in wine Country I can honestly say I am sick of wineries! LOL!

lolo
if you haven't had sc wine you are missing absolutely nothing. It is actually quite vile. Grapes really don;t like hot weather. But what the hey it is the local product but strange seeing the grapes behind electified fences. But that's a deer problem and not libs looking for free samples

wildwest
Unless they are table grapes. they need hotter weather.

Were to start??
It is amazing at the lack of historical knowledge displayed by people posting here. There are those who worship “free markets” so much that they want to get rid of all governmental laws and regulations. Excuse me, but do any of you know the meaning of the word “Trust?” Or what the Trusts did with the “free market” in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? You worship the free market but want to give a foreign government full access to our markets while. These are not private businesses but governments. Do you think that they will allow private business to compete against them in their countries?

You claim that the free market will fix all our problems. Explain then, how quacks (these are people who pretended to be physicians) existed for such a long time in the United States before the States cracked down on people practicing medicine without a license. The free market did eliminate them. I guess you want to eliminate the credentialing process and let quacks maim and kill thousands of people once again. According to your argument, with the free market, quacks won’t be able to get enough patients to remain in practice. How many people must they maim and kill before that happens? What happens when the quack moves to another city or state? According to you, we can’t allow the government to maintain any records.

How can the consumer make an informed choice if the government can not enact or enforce laws or regulations identifying the country of origin?

OMG! I just agreed with Schaffly
Loyal Conservative writes:
"...Not only that, but free trade with no restrictions has opened up a world of opportunites for us, and China is now fast becoming a market for Amrican goods."

Pray tell, what goods would those be? Everything you see these days says Made In China, and that is proving to not be a good thing.

He/she also says: "...The same FDA bureaucrats who make life so difficult for pharmaceutical companies and keep innovative drugs off the market because of their insistence on stringent tests are now working their magic on the American consumer, condemning us to a life without the low priced prducts we have come to enjoy."

Yes, let's have more drugs that have killed people because of weak drug testing. This is because the pharmaceutical industry pours money into politician's' reelection coffers. Great argument. Let's throw out any government testing and product safety control so we can have more and more low priced stuff.

Mary C.


Am I agreeing with Lily?
It is hard to believe, but I am agreeing with Lily on this issue. I personally have actively avoided anything marked “Made in China” years ago. Does anyone remember Tiamamen Square and the granting of “Most Favored Nation” status AFTER this massacre? That is when I started avoiding Chinese products. It is difficult and time consuming. I once went to over 15 stores over a period of 2 to 3 weeks looking for hangers for my shower curtain. I finally found some that were . . . “Made in U.S.A.” How many of you would make that effort. I recently found a BBQ set also “Made in U.S.A.” by Craftsman after several months. I have knowingly bought things made in China. It depends on the necessity and the time I have. But with time and effort you can eventually find anything made in a country other than China.

Trade with China is not free trade, nor could it ever be free trade as long as China remains a communist country. I would argue that trade with any government-owned business or company is not free trade. A government-owned company is the extreme end of government subsides, and I am sure the proponents of free markets are 100% against government subsidies.

I would love to see the Federal Government enact a law requiring clear and prominent labeling that depicts the country of origin of all parts used to make a product. I would love to see catalogues list country of origin instead of “imported” in the product descriptions. It would help Americans make better decisions and help them to buy American.

DVangura
No one is advocating a free market without a set of ground rules, ie, regulation. However I am with you. I too go out of my way not to buy from China. Everyone has their line in the sand for me that's it. Not just China other countries as well.

Principles need to trump money in this instance.

DVangura
Start at the end....

You ask "How can the consumer make an informed choice if the government can not enact or enforce laws or regulations identifying the country of origin?"

Same place government bureaucrats would. Probably the Internet.

You say "You claim that the free market will fix all our problems."

No, only economic problems, not moral problems with quacks. Government can't solve that either. I do think though that free choice entailed in free markets more moral than coercion entailed in government regulations.

You ask "Excuse me, but do any of you know the meaning of the word “Trust?”"

Sure, a merger of different companies under a single board of directors to achieve in order to attain efficiencies through economies of scale.

Similar to corporations.

Such efficiencies result in lower prices. I can enjoy technological advances the wealthy paid exorbitantly for.

You begin with "There are those who worship “free markets” so much that they want to get rid of all governmental laws and regulations."

Sounds like a plan, where do I sign up. ;-)

I don't worship free markets, though they do allow me free choice, and evidence supports this win-win model as a source of generation of wealth.

I would think it requires a great deal of faith-based reasoning to support collectivist government regulations which reason shows a fatal conceit to begin with and in the end evidence falsifies time and again.

I agree wholeheartedly
Much to the amusement of my family, I've avoided Chinese products for years. I did this for political and environmental reasons. Some of us are not trustful of communist governments. Also, if Al Gore really wants to improve the environment let him go lecture the Chinese. His politics are probably closer to theirs than to the average American's, anyway.

Label foods, in legible writing, that contain products from China. Let us make an informed decision. As for those who continue to buy food from China, well, natural selection will do its magic.

Globalism
And trade is what caused Columbus to dare an open and endless ocean.

That love of money is what owns the present partnership of corporations and government, destroying true free markets for Americans.

Using the government to enact so many laws it drives the costs so high only the rich men can operate "lawfully".

E-mail to Lolo
As for E-mail, I can send E-mail to my daughter, and she can forward it to lolo. Lolo can E-mail me, but I can not E mail her.

About the only thing that can be is her spam file. Whoops!

Try my phone number lolo, below the photo.

Simple Solutions

I don't know how many of you have actually done business in China and other foreign countries but it all starts with US, that is, people who come from companies in the USA and go over to China, negotiate, develop and consummate a contract. Your contract may, if you wish and if you're responsible, include a right to inspect, at random, full time or by any means which suits the buyer. There are no end of major concerns in China who are only too anxious to meet those terms, it relieves them from BEING EXECUTED.

It is the responsibility of companies like Mattel, Hasbro, Tonka Toy, to establish a QC program of their own design, including full time USA employees with the contractual right to have full auditing powers to oversee any part of the operation, including sub-contractors which may be utilized subject to the approval of the buyer.

We don't need more government, we need to cut it in half. We don't need to boycott anybody, we simply need to have our USA outsourcers, a very essential component of our economy, take responsibility or we hold them accountable.

Until you've been there, examined their factories, seen their workers, dealt with their executives or alternatively, spent a few days down at the docks, stop your crybaby whining and grow up. This is the real world. Get used to it, there's not going to be any meaningful chsnges until we make them happen by using the laws which already exist, not making more of them.

There are already many USA companies who do exactly what I've spoken of here. With your silly broad brush>>>>....I REFUSE TO BUY silliness, you condemn yourselves to certain penury.




God has warned us not to deal with 666
“In dealing with the dragon-tongued Regime, even the world’s most powerful politicians and largest corporations have succumbed to its temptation for the sake of the “potential”. They all had done very well without that market or the “engagement”, as history before 1990 can testify. Unfortunately they have dishonored themselves just like Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden tree.
It should be noted that whoever doing business in its domain or with the Regime must have received the beast mark consciously or unconsciously because the scripture here is definitive that “no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark…”
Above is a quote from “Behold, 666 is here”. Details are available at
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/chow051007.htm

jim
Got it.

Why refuse to buy...
Listen, a "refuse to buy" campaign alters the nature of the free market, just as a boycott of certain products do. Here's an example - if I know that you are reflexively not going to purchase Chinese products, then as an American producer, I feel no need to make my product more attractive to you. The political analogy is the relationship between blacks and the Dems. Knowing that blacks will not vote Republican, Democrats don't have to offer anything. But if the black vote was in play, then the black political electorate would not be taken for granted by one party and written off by the other.

So rather than a coordinated campaign, let's allow the market to be a collection of what we think as individuals. This is what separates us from the collectivist Chinese nd the Socialists that the libdolts worship so blindly. Our markets are formed by the aggregate desires of individuals that inspire entrepreneurship; their "markets" are impositions forced upon the citizens by the government. So let Chinese products compete in the marketplace - and let's show the world that free markets will prevai, and that the aggregate decision making power of the American people will prove correct once again..

mystic 7 said it

"Thomas Jefferson and Otto Von Hapsburg don't have much in common, but they both realized one truism. A country that is not self sufficient is doomed, and we have purposely, and stupidly, in the name of globalization, put ourselves into a position of depending on our enemies for our own well being. The final cost is yet to be realized."

OK, tiny correction, it was NOT in the name of globalization, but in the name of buck almighty. All right, same difference, but it wouldn't hurt to be straight.

About the final cost ... my grandma used to say (for different reasons, all right) that she's not rich enough to buy cheap goods. It still stands true, if only Americans would realize that cheap is NOT in their best interest. It's definitely in SOMEBODY'S best interest, but hardly in theirs.

It's incredible how a socialist-like-regulated country like Germany actually sent Wal-Mart packing not with regulations, but with consumer choices who refused to buy by same model as Wal-Mart wanted to sell.

But here, Wal-Mart got to be Wal-Mart for a reason so extremely efficiently explained right above their front entrance - "Why pay more!"

Well, maybe we will learn why. Hopefully soon.

The Marketplace?
Loyal Conservative, you sound more like a disloyal neoconservative. Where's the free marketplace in America? The large corporations have bought enough politicians so that they can export jobs and imports products while slowly poisoning our food, our water, our air, and our meds.

The first order of business for the federal government is protecting our borders. Has it done so? Then next it must protect the rights and benefits of citizens. Has it done that? Then it’s charged with regulating commerce with foreign nations. That’s not the providence of corporations. Look it up in Article 1 Section 8, Paragraph 3 of the Constitution, particularly you false conservatives and libertarians. Liberals need not look it up as they don’t believe in the Constitution anyway.

However, if you really think the corporate controlled marketplace can stop large corporations from importing contaminated products you live in Never Never Land.

By the way, why should China be concerned about our safety and health? After all, the West, led by Britain forced China to import and distribute Opium to its people. Do any of you recall hearing about the Opium Wars? And guess what family helped the British smuggle in opium and then start the war? It was the Forbes, as in John Forbes Kerry!

tax breaks for shoddy products
I would hope that there are no tax breaks given to these AMERICAN corporations for their importation of shoddy substandard products. If there are losses due to their greed, they should eat them themselves. In addition, lock up the CEOs for endangering the public.
Maybe corporate multinationalism has met its match.

Loyal Conservative
When it comes to "refuse to buy" campaigns and a market place formed by aggregate desires, I have to respectfully disagree. To me, aggregate seems too static in terms of model. I prefer a model that captures the complexity and dynamic of individual interaction and exchange out of which emerge prices, the market itself. It's a minor variation but a dynamic view allows for the persuasiveness, if you will, of sales pitch, advertising, image and, more importantly, here, of arguments for "refuse to buy" campaigns. If the argument persuades and the campaign bubbles up from the market place of ideas and affects the market, it would be selective and flexible as a dynamic aggregate of the wisdom of the crowds--even though I disagree with the campaign because it closes markets rather than opens them, hurts us more than the Chinese. It would do less harm than collectivists in DC imposing blanket inflexible controls on free consumer choice.

You don’t buy, they don’t import.
No one makes a penny cutting down a tree, building a house, or drilling an oil well, they make money when someone wants to buy a house, or a tank of gasoline.

The same with people who complain about the imports from China, no one makes money importing from China, they make money when you buy the product. You don’t buy, they don’t import.

Those who say the police are too violent, never join the police force and become a gentle policeman. Also have you noticed that sometimes people want a policeman to be given some days off without pay, because of the way he treated some criminal.

Well, that's not good enough for me. I tell those people that I want to get rid of most of the police force. That's easy to do, just behave your selves.

Did you ever notice that the people with all the answers such as don’t build that, don’t cut that, don’t drill that, are never smart enough to own a company and present an alternative.

Jim- I don't want police officers who
are gentlemen. I want them to be as tough as the creeps they arrest.

You will never get everybody to be nice enough to make police unnecessary. The nicer the population, the more they need protecting from thugs who come here from somewhere else.

We should never have given a country like China most favored trading status, because they have never demonstrated good faith.

They have always shown a disregard for human life, and probably thought we were a bunch of suckers because we do business on the honor system. I pay you to do a job, and I trust you to deliver the products you promised, instead of poisonous food and defective tires.

We have to watch over them like they are a bunch of three-year-olds who stick their hands into the cookie jar the moment you turn your back.

Maybe what we need
is a symbol similar to our "Dolphin-free tuna" - only it would be "not imported from China" products!

I do wonder why the quality control people from the companies on our side of the ocean aren't inspecting at least a sample of product being imported. Perhaps had they been so doing, they would have caught these illegalities before they were sold to the public.

Wish I could grow my own!! Maybe it is time for a bit of a boycott on all things from China.

pjal writes:
Tuesday, August, 14, 2007 5:58 PM
"Simple Solutions

I don't know how many of you have actually done business in China and other foreign countries but it all starts with US, that is, people who come from companies in the USA and go over to China, negotiate, develop and consummate a contract. Your contract may, if you wish and if you're responsible, include a right to inspect, at random, full time or by any means which suits the buyer. There are no end of major concerns in China who are only too anxious to meet those terms, it relieves them from BEING EXECUTED.

It is the responsibility of companies like Mattel, Hasbro, Tonka Toy, to establish a QC program of their own design, including full time USA employees with the contractual right to have full auditing powers to oversee any part of the operation, including sub-contractors which may be utilized subject to the approval of the buyer.

We don't need more government, we need to cut it in half. We don't need to boycott anybody, we simply need to have our USA outsourcers, a very essential component of our economy, take responsibility or we hold them accountable."...
============

Thanks for a very informative post! Had I read yours first, my previous one might have been worded differently. I see we agree on the QC topic, and I can now understand that a boycott would not be in our best interests. Thanks again!

Loyal Conservative
1) I have an 1858 book on how to cook and run a household. It instructs the (American) housewife how to tell when the grocer has extended the flour by adding plaster and how to get the gravel out of the dried peas (added to it to extend the weight). In my own housekeeping lifetime this information has not been needed because government regulation now prohibits grocers from selling such stuff. 2) The Pure Food and Drug Act was a direct result of the muckraking novel "The Jungle" which, if you haven't read it, you might want to read to find out what our meat-packing industry was like before it was regulated. 3) I have seen (as you may have) a photographic facsimile of the 1910 Sears catalog. It offered for sale many nostrums of doubtful therapeutic value, guaranteed to cure cancer, tuberculosis, infertility, kidney stones, impotence, measles, baldness, and all female trouble. It also sold cocaine and opium.

Things are different now. Our public health didn't improve because of the free market. It improved because science and government joined hands to keep the public safe. In the United States we have come to expect that the products we buy will be safe, our food pure, and our medication efficacious and non-toxic: why else is TV so full today of the story of Mattel's latest toy recall? This is news exactly because we have grown accustomed to better.

Re Chinese Products (and Possibly Others
I am not boycotting. I am not doing a political action. I am not anti-Chinese. And I don't care whether anyone else joins me. But I am not buying any foodstuff or medication or toiletries that come from China, and I'm getting pretty damned particular where stuff does come from. The way I am feeling right now, Switzerland would be fine. I am an American in my eighth decade of life and never before have I had reason to suspect the purity of the food I buy in the United States. Never. This is new. I cannot express how angry I am about this: that because my country is now in the hands of an administration that is anti-regulation, pro-outsourcing, pro-market, pro-global, and pro-anything-goes-if-it-makes-a-buck, public health in the United States has now been compromised. One day it is catfood, the next day it is toys, then it is toothpaste, the next day it is seafood, and who knows what it is tomorrow.

Someone on this thread describes a way in which an American company can assure quality control in a foreign factory. As I read his post, in the background I could hear the TV interview of somebody from Mattel who said that lead-free paint had been supplied to toy manufacturers who substituted other paint. If you are doing business with crooks, they are likely to subvert your best intentions. And I am shocked, shocked, but it sure sounds like it's not only politicians who take payola. Could it be that the holiest of holies, business, could also have some crooks?

No worries
There is nothing much to fear about China. I remember when Japan was the "China" of the day, and I remember cursing the quality of the all-too-ubiquitous Japanese products. What happened? The Japanese Yen got valuable; Japanese workers demanded better compensation; and now Japanese products are often considered to be of superior quality. The same will happen to China. Her Yuan will become more valuable or, rather, the greenback will weaken even more. Oil for transportation will become more expensive, and cheap labor will eventually become scarce. The nature of the Chinese government is practically irrelevant to this process.

The end result of this is that the Chinese businesses will adapt by going for higher quality (just like the Japanese before them). At that time, some other country will be supplying the Wal*Marts of the world. My guess is India; already a big player, but the Indians have a different outlook on life which will make them more willing to play along with the old lowest-cost cheapest-labor game, for a longer time. Eventually, India will overtake China in population since the lack of an authoritarian government makes birth control policy harder to implement. The high labor force encourages the sweatshop mentality.

Most of my Chinese friends have agreed that "scratch a Chinaman, and there's a capitalist underneath". Never have I heard it said that there's a "libertarian underneath" or any other such nonsense.


No worries, part 2
At present, vast quantities of $US are being held by Chinese businesses and banks (and are still held in high esteem by private citizens, according to my Chinese friend who regularly smuggles the stuff out of PRC). $US are still used for underground economy transactions. The remaining $US which are used legally are only useful when used to buy goods from the US itself (or other countries which need more $US in their foreign reserves), or to invest in US assets such as T-bonds. It is definitely not in China's interest to rock the boat. They are pragmatic enough to know that the US can only be pushed so far. Instead, they are willing to let the $US slide down in value until it finds its balance point.

Also on the plus side for the greenback: hardly any Chinaman would want his dollars to devalue, since they are so useful in the large underground economy. This is particularly the case for the top level of the government, since the fat-cats have the most to lose if the dollar slides -- particularly the symbiotic relationship with large businesses in their bailiwick.

Lilly,
I don't think anyone on this thread has seriously supported less regulation of international commerce. "Loyal Conservative" is, as you know, a satirist who is merely demonstrating his hidden point by "reductio ad absurdum".

I know that there are a lot of extreme free-marketers on TH, however they have not really made much of an appearance on this thread. I suspect this is mainly because it's awfully hard to argue for less government regulation given the recent melamine and ethylene glycol "incidents".

lilly that was
an outstanding post at 12 am 15 aug.

lily
You say "Our public health didn't improve because of the free market. It improved because science and government joined hands to keep the public safe."

Explain where the wealth came from to pay for the research and development of that science? It sure as heck didn't come from government.

Once again to lilly
Lilly -

I have to apologize for all of my earlier postings. They were completely sarcastic in tone. What really concerns me is how many of the folks who post here actually agreed that the market should decide when there are some instances when the free market does not perform well. Should children's development actually be placed at risk so that market may transmit consumer dissatisfaction to the producer? Absolutely not!

My personal theory is that without government leveling the playing field, the free market would exist only long enough for a few large corporations to corner it - and then large oligopolies would basically run the country (kind of the way they do now through political contributions).

In fact, one could argue that product safety only became a concern of the free market only after government decided to make it a priority. Otherwise, the attitude was pretty much laissez-faire when it came to safety. For instance, now every car offers airbags for safety, but when the feds first mandated it, the howls of protest from the auto industry could be heard across the land (and I won't even mention fuel efficiency, which again drew the ire of auto industry execs, and now the market their cars based on it).

Can government be improved? Yes, just like everything can. But are the citizens of this country better served by having a government that prioritizes consumer safety over producer profits? Yes again. And if you don't think so, ask the women in Europe who used thalidomide in the 1960's, only to later give birth to children with birth defects. Why wasn't this a problem in the U.S.? Because of that dreaded government bureaucracy, the FDA.

Now What
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to ship all of
our labor-intensive jobs overseas after all.

But wait. If we brought them back, profits and
then stocks would tumble.

But wait. Maybe we could stop paying top management such obscene wages and maybe the
labor unions would stop making such obscene
demands ($100,000 a year with overtime working
the line!, this was at least 15 years ago).

We sort of asked for the mess we are in. Meanwhile, the Chinese govt is so rich and
powerful, we are afraid of them. We are not
EVER going to thumb our nose at them.

Greed will do a person and a society in sooner
or later, every time.

Loyal
You say "They were completely sarcastic in tone."

Sarcasm, to be effective, needs to be obvious, not hidden. Easy to do that with tone of voice, difficult with tone of post.

I'm embarrassed to say I should have guessed when you raised the outdated, static economic model involving aggregate demand.

You seem to base your anti-capitalist sentiments on a single premise: "there are some instances when the free market does not perform well".

That is true, they don't always. One could argue, conversely, there are some instances when government does perform well. But here's the difference, people in a free market are flexible and can adjust quickly, governments are not and do not.

This is interesting: "My personal theory is that without government leveling the playing field, the free market would exist only long enough for a few large corporations to corner it - and then large oligopolies would basically run the country (kind of the way they do now through political contributions)."

The metaphor "leveling" implies government exerts a destructive, coercive force. That's true. The metaphor "capture" implies the market is a thing. That's false. The market consists of people who offer, exchange and consume products and services. If the market is free it is voluntary. The only capturing ever done is when government, often in collusion with some companies that cannot compete, coercively levels free choice and harms us with lower quality and higher prices.

When you figure out how government can generate wealth, let me know.

Lonestar...
You apparently missed my point (and besides, I did not use the word capture, I used the word corner, which is the word used when output is controlled by relatively few companies). My point was that free markets work best when information flows rapidly between producer and consumer. An uninformed consumer cannot transmit any information to a producer, especially when the adverse effects of products are not immediately felt. Those products where adverse effects can be felt immediately (like the Chinese pet food causing acute symtpoms in pets) will elicit an immediate consumer response.

But the effects of lead poisoning does not show up for years. So absent an entity who puts in the effort to detect substances that cause long-term harm, how can the consumer incorporate that into their decision making? By the time consumer preferences suggested that Chinese-made toys were the culprit, years may have elapsed, by which time it would be too late for many.

The word "leveling" was not intended to imply destruction; rather it was intended to imply governent acting as a counterweight to large corporations who would use size to control markets rather than innovative products. IMHO, Microsoft can rule the world if it continually produces innovative products at low cost to consumers. On the other hand, using its size to create barriers to entry by competitors (by product bundling and coercion of PC manufactures by threatening to withold Microsoft products) does not serve consumers at all.

Reply to Loyal Conservative
Loyal C,

In this particular case, it's not evil corporations that are waging war on the consumer. The US companies are just useful idiots that will bear the brunt of any potential lawsuits. Most of the major companies in China get their marching orders from the PLA and the government. They are practically untouchable. When a sovereign state, with its monopoly on violence, is the driving force behind adverse mercantile policies, where is your effective counterweight? To paraphrase V. I. Lenin, we will buy the rope (marked way down with smiley face stickers) by which the Chinese will hang us.
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