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Monday, July 23, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Children's Rights
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Debates about same-sex marriage and gay adoptions always include the argument that a child has the right to both a father and a mother. If that is true, why is a child usually deprived of that right when heterosexual couples divorce?

It would seem that maintaining the father's love and authority would be crucial when a child's life is turned upside down by divorce. Yet, family courts routinely deprive children of one parent, usually the father, restricting his time with his child to about six days a month.

The courts pompously assert they are invoking "the best interest of the child," but how can it be in the best interest of children to make them forfeit one parent?

We hear many pious comments about the need for fathers to be involved in the upbringing of their children. This need should be even more important in times of emotional stress, such as divorce, than the need for fathers to play ball with their kids in an intact family.

Some states are considering legislation that establishes a presumption of shared parenting whereby divorced parents divide equally both time and authority over the children. This enables children to maintain strong ties to both parents.

When primary or sole custody is given to the mother, the father becomes merely a visitor in the child's life (that's why it's called "visitation"), whose only value is to mail a paycheck and be an occasional baby sitter. The father loses his parental authority and fades out of his own child's life.

An argument is sometimes made that shuttling back and forth between two homes might be upsetting or a nuisance, but there is no more shuttling with equal custody (where parents, for example, get alternating weeks) than with the typical mother-custody/father-visitation schedule (where the father gets two weekends a month plus some Wednesday evenings). Do the math; both plans have about the same number of shuttles between homes.

An argument is also made that giving custody primarily to the mother promotes stability, but the need for stability is really a reason for shared custody. The stability of parental relationships is a great deal more important than contact with material things.

Americans have always assumed that parents share decision-making authority because only parents can determine what is in the best interest of their own children. As recently as 2000, the Supreme Court in Troxel v. Granville reaffirmed this principle and rejected the argument that a judge could supersede a fit parent's judgment about his child's "best interest."

Nevertheless, in what Stephen Baskerville calls a "silent revolution," millions of divorced parents have had their fundamental right to decide what is in the best interest of their own children taken away and given instead to a vast array of government officials and so-called "experts" such as judges, lawyers, psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, child protective services, child support enforcement agents, mediators, counselors, parenting classes, and feminist groups.

This shift began in the 1970s after the spread of unilateral divorce was followed by the creation of a giant federal child support-enforcement bureaucracy. The notion that this mix of government officials and government-appointed advisers can dictate what is the best interest of the child rather than a child's own parents is how liberals and feminists are fulfilling their goal that "it takes a village (i.e., the government) to raise a child."

An example of the bias against fathers can be seen in the Responsible Fatherhood Act of 2007 recently introduced by Sens. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and Evan Bayh, D-Ind. The bill mentions "child support" 65 times, but not once does it mention parenting time, custody, visitation, or access denial.

Baskerville's new book, "Taken into Custody: The War Against Fatherhood, Marriage, and the Family" (Cumberland House, $24.95), provides a copiously documented description of society's injustices to children who have been deprived of their fathers and of fathers who have been deprived of their children. This book is a tremendous and much-needed report on how family courts and government policies are harming children.

It is a breakthrough for shared parenting that a noncustodial father, Robert Pedersen, was recently named runner-up in the nationwide Best Life Magazine's "Hero Dad" Contest. Pedersen is only allowed 6 to 8 days a month with his two children from a previous marriage.

Pedersen has devised a novel way to demonstrate the importance of fathers to children of divorced parents. He is leading an "Equal Parenting Bike Ride" starting in Lansing, Mich., on Aug. 11 and culminating with an Aug. 18 rally in Washington, D.C.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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How to solve the problem
Make marriage harder to come by, and make it nearly impossible to dissolve by eliminating these "no fault" divorces.

Additionally, eliminate any and all testimony from social workers and psychiatrists. Let the court decide custody based on who's deemed "at fault" in divorce proceedings.

Stoic
Eliminating "no-fault" divorce is the most self-righteous solution to a problem since "chastity for all homosexuals" (which I read a few days ago on a different article).

It's essentially encouraging couples who no longer have a healthy relationship to stay together "for the kids", which is a disastrous response to the social disease of divorce. Often children discover the concept of peace for the very first time when one parent finally moves out of the house. Wishing that were not the case in many households will not make it come true. Often parents splitting is EXACTLY what needs to happen, for everyone's wellbeing. And no-fault divorce makes that possible, along with 50/50 custody, and a chance at a healthy new start for the kid, with both parents present and accounted for.

Efforts to make marriage more difficult I wholeheartedly support. Make them prove monogamy, a certain amount of time together, etc. I would even support required co-habitation for a certain amount of time before getting married. (In fact, I think it may make for a good compromise on the gay marriage thing: For marriage licenses, require co-habitation, declared monogamy, and a joint bank account for 12 months for all couples who want to wed, and allow gays and lesbians the same right. It strengthens the "sanctity of marriage" and surely reduces divorce, while providing equality. Sounds good to me!)

But back to the point: efforts to make divorce more difficult are very dangerous and like I said, self-righteous. It's fighting with the wrong end of the sword.

poor argument for a reasonable view
There are some good conclusions here, but it is amazing how poor the arguments are for those conclusions.

First of all, people advocating same-sex adoption are obviously not arguing for the right to a mother and a father. What Shafely seems to be referring to is the advantage of having both of the parents who raise the child have legal ties to the child in case one of them should die. This is a good argument towards protecting some children. But it has nothing to do with children's rights, and obviously not with the importance of fathers per se, as the second parent is often a second mother.

Additionally, the argument that the decision of what is in the best interest of the child should be left to the parents makes no sense in this context. After all the state makes these decisions precisely in the cases in which parents can't agree what is in the best interest of the child. Shafely is arguing that what is in the best interest of other people's children in most cases is joint custody with equal time spent with each parent. She may be right. She is certainly right in a lot of cases, and the question seems to me to be whether it really extends to most cases or just some. But then what she is arguing for is for the government tp adjudicate these disputes one way rather than another. There is nothing in this that would alleviate the government's role in the matter.

The real question comes down to whether the gain of having equal time with the second parent offsets not having a single home the child thinks of as his or her primary home. This seems to me to be a complicated question of child psychology that I would not want to guess at a priori. But there is nothing but a priori speculation in the above account. That is to say, no evidence is provided exactly where evidence is needed. Instead things are treated as obvious precisely where they are least so.

The solution
to this particual rproblme has been articulated over and over again. It is called the "rebuttable presumption of joint custody." Basically, it establishes joint custody as the default. If a parent has reason to exclude the former spouse, that partetn can make the case before a judge. But, unless and until a convincing case is made, joint custody is the rule.

turnabout is fair play
Stoic Patriot has it right- you need to get rid of no fault divorce and award custody based upon the outcome of the divorce proceedings. The person at fault loses custody and the primary authority in the home he has torn asunder. After decades of having men dump their wives at will, the courts tried to restore balance and the result is this custody mess. Now it is just as bad for the men.
Welcome to the world of no fault divorce where the guilty parties call all the shots and the law backs them up.
Ms Shlafly- your suggestion that the parents share time with the children equally doesn't work. I've seen it in action and it is an abominable situation for those kids. They are then condemned to no family life at all. How would you like to shift homes every week? They have no continuity of any sort. Their things get lost- they have to transfer school work, books, projects, everything back and forth. They have to have a master calendar to figure out when they can see their friends or their grandparents. In one house they can watch whatever they want, the other home is rated G. It's a nightmare. Children need one house, one set of rules, and one set of parents.
A single responsible parent is better than two semi-responsible parents. A parent who abandons his or her family should no longer have an equal say in the conduct of that family. The guilty parties defaulted on their obligations, now they must relinquish some authority. Any other arrangement is unjust.
Is a partner who leaves a company still entitled to run it? Heck no, he may be entitled to some money or some privileges, but he can no longer lay claim to any authority in that company. Why is a parent who breaks up a family still treated the same as before? It makes no sense.
Ms Shlafly- this isn't a father's rights issue- this is a no fault divorce issue.
What you are doing Ms Shlafly, is furthering the divide between men and women. We need good men and women to reform our divorce laws. We don't need to keep escalating the legal weapons race between mothers and fathers.

Strange to see this article today...
Today, my wife and I both made the same observation. Our 18 month old little girl holds on to daddy with startling force. There is a fundamental need for a father.

This afternoon, my friend remarked that she kept falling for "jerks" until she found her husband who was, "not even her type..." (more on this below)

I disagree with Stoic Patriot only in we cannot "make marriage harder" to come by. God forbid we have the Government start playing matchmaker and marriage managers. I shudder to think of what would come of it.

What we need to do is instill in our children the understanding that marriage--is an important event--much more important than buying a car or house. It is more important than having children (i.e. having sex.)

It is an event requiring a great deal of consideration and guidance. Because, like my friend above, the people that attract us initially, are not necessarily the people we need to partner with in our life long journey.

I certainly agree that thoughtful and considerate marriages of true love--not just lust and passion--will reduce divorces.

With reduced divorces social workers and their cohorts will not be needed.

Men as Part of the Family
So happy to hear Phyllis talk about this subject. Most men want to be part of their children's life. For court's to default custody to the woman and then force the man to work several jobs is a really lose-lose situation. The man and child don't spend the time together needed. Second,to be forced to work extra to make child payments but get excluded from the childs life is a double whammy.

One comment here seems to suggest this split would occur normally and courts only step in when there is an issue. Well normally there is an issue and when courts normally only give the father 6 days a month they know they will loose before going to court. I ended up having to pay an additional $170 per month for the priveledge of seeing my kids 14 days vs 6 days per month. Had I gone to court I would never have gotten the 14 days. My kids are much more adjusted than they would have been. They can draw from experiences from both parents and make better choices in life.

Turn around Turn Left
I don't know where to start--people get divorced for many reasons--but ultimately only one root cause. That root cause is selfishness.

Selfishness is #1 on the hit parade for any soured marriage. It takes humility and sacrifice to make a marriage work--selfish people need not apply for a license.

People keep trotting out the worst case incidents to keep the worst attrocities going. There are bad marriages--abusive ones. Wives hurting husbands, husbands hurting wives--these people need help--some need divorce. But they are not the majority of cases. Trotting these out to keep a clearly failed policy in place is a terrible practice.

At present 50% of marriages end in divorce. I rather doubt 50% of marriages are "abusively unhealthy" but rather have at least one probably two extremely selfish or immature people in the marriage.

No Fault Divorce gave the selfish people of the world a way to get what they want and then not have to work at it. They got an "out."

Living together without commitment is basically keeping selfishness and self serving attitudes at the forefront of every relationship. How about a long period of courtship? What is wrong with that? Oh, that's right, its hard work...

Gay / Lesbian marriage makes even less sense.
1) Male homosexual behavior statistically is quite unheathly. Check out the CDC stats on male-on-male STD transmittance and you will find AIDS (amoung a plethora of other diseases that arise from a man sticking his member in another man's feces and blood.) outnumbers IV drug rates by 4 to 1.

2) The family is the incubator for the next generation. There is what works--what has worked, and what secular progressives say will maybe possibly work--but rarely does. Look at self esteem education.

These people generally point to limited/slanted studes by over reaching Marxist trained sociology professsors and say "see, these children do just as well..." Never you mind the metrics...

I'm not in favor of the government licensing marriage--I don't like the idea of government "guiding" in this way.

Marriage is between the two people and GOD. It's that simple.

But please don't tell me about the abusive relationships when ~90% of the divorces are simply from selfish people who made bad decisions and then don't want to own up and take responsibility for them--it's insulting.

Such silliness...
The typical objections to the commonsense observations that children need fathers in their lives have already been roundly refuted, (see TurnLeft and VivaCristory) but the adage about lies being repeated...

To wit:

1. "We can't 'force' people to be married."

Let's not forget most people (90%+) get married at least once in their lives, so nobody is "making" any one get married. The effort is to keep people married, as this reduces the horrendous downstream social costs, primarily to children of divorce. The "avoid conflict at all costs" shibboleth of the Left assumes that divorce is normal, that Big Daddy government is better able to subsidize families than fathers, and that encouraging family dissolution is the only solution to conflict resolution. Did you read Phyllis' article, or Baskerville's book?
Shared parenting is, factually speaking, better for kids- if not for a single mom who doesn't want to 'bother' sharing their child with the father.

2. "Perfect Single Parent families are better than imperfect two parent families."

Utter nonsense. Long term, reliable social science data points to the contrary. By all indicators of child well-being, children are best raised in intact, 2 parent families. Any claims that conflict is the sole determining factor in familial relationships ignores non-income related indicators, the self-reporting of children later in life, and other factors. Healthy relationships WILL have conflict- perfect lives exist only on Oprah. What children need are examples of people working through conflict, not giving up on important relationships.

3. "A father who breaks up a family has no other rights to that family."

Also bunk. Most divorces are created unilaterally by women for reasons such as "not being in love" or "no longer compatible," not infidelity or DV.
If men were afforded 85% of custody post-divorce, as women are now, our divorce rate would be 1/4 of today's rates. Clearly, divorce laws favor women and the divorce industry, but those into power and control refuse to acknowledge that their selfish, unfounded claims to exclusive access to children for profit are hurting the very children they claim to protect. If they want total authority, they should expect total responsibility.

Sorry to rant, but I'm tired of hearing the same old lies repeated ad infinitum while our children suffer.

GO PHYLLIS GO!!




Roger King
I suspect I am the one you are referring to with your comment above that "One comment here seems to suggest this split would occur normally and courts only step in when there is an issue. Well normally there is an issue" But if I understand your point you are supporting what I said, not undercutting it. (Although I may be misunderstanding it).

Schafely suggests that the question of what is in the best interest of the children should be left to the parents rather than the government. There are a lot of situations for which that claim makes sense. My point was that this is not one of them. When the parents do not agree and are not capable of working things out together, then there is not much sense to saying that the decisions should be left to the parents.

Were you offering a counter example to this? Were you in a position in which you and your ex would have come to a perfectly amicable arrangement but the government somehow got in the way? How were you presented with this choice of 6 days and x dollars vs 14 days and y dollars? Was this a choice given to you by your wife's lawyers? Was it your lawyer's estimate of what was possible? Was it a choice given to you by the courts?

The idea
Of polygamy makes me shudder.

Well, what else is it? Daddy and Mommy get a divorce; but Daddy and Mommy still have the same input into the child's life, the same access to the child, etc...

Then Mommy marries boyfriend, and/or Daddy marries girlfriend... Now you have a household with 4 parents.

If you're going to get divorced, what the heck is the point of continuing to share responsibility for the kids? If you're going to continue seeing the b*tch or b*st*rd on a regular basis, continue to deal with family issues with them, WHY DIVORCE? Why not just listen to those vows you took regarding "...in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer, for better for worse"? Do you *really* need someone new to sleep with that badly?

No, if I were to get divorced, I'd either leave the country (so I couldn't be socked for child support while some other swinging richard dictates how my offspring are raised) and start over w/o the kids, or see to it that she did.

turnleft
Required cohabitation? Hmmm.

Are you aware that statistically couples who cohabitate prior to marriage are more likely to divorce than couples who did not cohabitate? Cohabitation is NO anecdote for divorce. In fact, it seems actually to encourage it.

TurnLeft
>declared monogamy,
Im not so sure why this is an issue. Marriage is a contract, and as such is a mutual agreement between two parties. Not all parties may desire a monagamous relationship, and there are several family models do not include this type of relationship.


Gender Roles
What I fail to see is why it is so important for one of the partners to have a peni$. Is it really the sexual organ that is necessary for a good parent? Or is it the gender role that one of the parents adopt. Since Im sure it is more related to gender role that physical attribute, I again need to ask what is so valueable about the traditoinal gender roles that is so vital in keeping a child from becoming an axe murder?

Quix
>God forbid we have the Government start playing matchmaker and marriage managers

To late,they already are

jdw
>Of polygamy makes me shudder.

I agree with your comments that pratical polyandry wide spread in this country. While various types of poly relationships may not be legally recongized or endorsed by churchs, they none the less thrive, and have so for many generations.

Left Turn, joint custody, and adulterers
LEFT TURN

Read Between Two Worlds:The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce. Adult children of divorce, like me, who are happy and successful were the only people interviewed in the book. The lies of a "good divorce" are addressed thoroughly.

The children whose parents divorced in cases of violence, substance abuse, and adultery were better off in the long run. None of those issues falls into "no-fault divorce" categories.

Children whose parents divorced over other issues that were not high conflict were worse off in the long run.

There has been study done on co-habitating couples. They have higher divorce rates than those who did not co-habitate before marriage. So, there is evidence that your suggestion would increase divorce rates rather than decrease them.

JOINT CUSTODY

My brother has joint custody of his son (he and the mother were never married). Each parent works a compressed work week at opposite shifts, so my nephew is either with his mother or his father. There is no daycare involved. Why is it assumed that the disruption of joint custody is inherently worse than the disruption of seeing a father every other weekend and one week each summer like I experienced as a child?


RIGHTS OF ADULTERERS

As a daughter of an admitted habitual adulterer, I have to wonder what makes people think children have no rights to their adulterer fathers? Do you think not having a father is better for young children? Sure, there comes a day when each kid is old enough to hear why his/her parents are divorced and the kid understands that Dad chose another woman (usually a woman who is long gone by that time)over staying with his family, but at least he stayed connected to some degree. Complete and total abandonment isn't psychologically good for children.


I am very wary of government trying to solve social issues. Social issues are very complexed and ever changing.



Children's RIGHTS
Why are we limiting the RIGHTS of CHILDREN (very young adults).... Laws today in this country need to recognize that even (very young adults) need thier RIGHTS just like GAY Rights...

The Age of CONSENT is an arbitrary # that society has passed without thinking of (very young adults)... This law can and should be changed to accomodate these (very young adults) and thier PEDOPHILE admirers..

This process will take the same form as that of GAY Rights,, where judges overturn SODOMY, MARRIAGE, ADOPTION for the oppressed community of GAYS...
CONSENT needs to be changed for our community of (very young adults) and thier admirers need a new word to describe themselves (other than pedophile as this has massive negative connotations)...

If you also feel that like GAY Rights judges need to recognize all Rights then please lets think of a new name for the oppressed group (pedophiles),,

Not a Perfect Solution
Equally shared custody is not a cure-all. I once knew a child who spent equal time with her divorced parents who did not allow her to take anything from one home to another---she had separate clothes, separate toys, different pediatricians, different pets, everything, and each parent actually called her by a different name. It's very hard for a child to develop a sound, integrated sense of who he (or she) is when every detail of life is split in half like that. Any custodial arrangement can be misused by immature parents who use the child as a weapon for smacking each other around.

Lily
and others are typical of the red herring used to deny a child the FUNDAMENTAL right to two parents. And why not? After all the social workers, most divorcing women, lawyers, and shrinks make money and careers by haveing more and more single custody outcomes. Equally shared physical custody is against the pocketbooks of these sick people who send their own kids to Harvard on the back of ruining the families of others. Unfortunately both liberals and conservatives (including John Kasich, otherwise a decent man) are champions of such an abomination of human rights of children. I sure hope that every person who has deprived another of his child and a child of his parent, suffers the same in their family..only then would thse sickos realize the pain they have caused.

Abolish marriage
and there will be no divorce.

I am a single dad
and sole parent of my teen girls. Their mother is in prison cause she liked crack more than her family. The child support folks are STILL after me after 3 years for child support. They are crazy. Dads have very few rights at all and the ones we do get are after numerous court battles that cost us 10 grand. I hate these effin people.

Marriage and Family, What's Happened
Marriage and family, what does it really mean anymore?

Is marriage all about convenience, someone to help provide a better life style, sex?
How many people head to the alter with the idea that in two to five years they are going to be unfaithful or divorced.

It amazes me that people give more careful consideration to buying a car than they do to choose a mate.

People start out in adulthood with some sort of value system. They either put people high on there list or things high on there list.

It’s either me or others that are important.

We live in an “I deserve culture”.
Something usually works it way into a relationship that turns the smiles at the alter into the frowns at the courthouse.

Marriages usually hit the rocks because of the “I have a right to something complex”.

You can’t get in your can and go to work without realizing that someone could run into you and ruin your day, does that stop you from going to work.

People are different, different personalities, different habits, and different tastes.

People don’t concentrate on the important things before they make a commitment.

Especially today it’s all about sex. I got news for you people who are contemplating marriage based on sex, It’s like a new car, it’s fun to ride until it gets a few dents and scratches on it, then you want a new one.

Marriage is a partnership, its two people who have met and realized that the other brings out the best in them. They have to be compatible, because they are going to spend a long, long, time together hopefully.

When children come along you have broken a vow to them as well.

That’s why marriage should be thought out very carefully before you ever bring children into the world.

Women, you better know that man like your daddy before you say I do. Men, you better be sure that there’s more than sex that you have on your mind, because anyone with children can tell where that’s going real quick. If you are not mature enough to handle it, you’re going to be looking else where and then you’re just another statistic.

Author needs to do more research.
Although, not on a proffessional level, I believe my personal experience allows me to speak on this topic with some authority. My husband of ten years and I have six happy and well adjusted children. My parents were divorced and my father raised my three siblings and I. My first husband walked out leaving me to raise our daughter alone.

Following the court ordered alternate weekend agreement was very upsetting to my daughter's life and greatly interferred with her growing up. How much more upsetting would it have been for her to move from one house to another each week? It proved a waste of time eventually when her father said he would give up visitiation, happily, if he could stop paying child support. This attitude demonstrates that my daughter went through an awful lot of upset when he was only fulfilling what was expected of him by a court order rather than using it as an opportunity to take part in the raising of his daughter. In all the years my daughter went to less than appropriate surroundings instead of being at home where she was happy and comfortable doing things with her friends as she would have liked to have been, hanging out with her siblings and taking part in church and club activities-never once did her father every state a desire to be more involved in her day to day raising and decision making. I think this is the case for many men.

I sadly have one brother who took the very same position with his own son. Being only involved in his child's life to the degree that was expected of him socially. Never did he make an effort to be more involved in the daily life of his son. In fact it seemed he was almost relieved when he son turned fifteen and stopped visitation altogether. I think in fact that when only one parent is involved it is primarily their choice not the fact that the child does not live with them or that the parent with primary custody is preventing it. How many parents raising a child or children alone would truly turn down the offer of help from someone who earnestly wants a part in helping raise their child?

I would even go so far as to say that the absent parent is glad for the freedom to not take part in the very difficult task of raising a child on a day to day basis. Consider another of my brothers. His divorce agreement allows him custody only every other weekend. However, he wanted to be more involved in his daughter's life and as such has developed a relationship with his ex wife and her two subsequent husbands and their children that allows him constant contact in his teenager's life and an active part in the decision making of her life without the constant upheavel that requiring her to move from one house to another every other week or every other weekend would cause. Additionally, he attends her activities and events and his children from his second marriage are an important part of the family his former wife has now. It gets very confusing for us outsiders as to relationships and such from there as all the children refer to all the "fathers" as daddy and both mothers as "mommy" but it has proved a workable way for all six (one who is mentally handicapped) of the children, three fathers, and both mothers involved.

Thus, I would say the author needs to give more consideration to the reality. While I whole heartedly agree that the best way for a child to grow up is in fact with both parents under the same roof, I don't feel that depriving a child of the right to a place to know and call home is the answer. While I go on record as an opponent of divorce, forcing unhappily married couples to stay together is probably not the answer either. I personally preferred growing up in a home with one parent and without the daily stress of fighting that I lived with for my first twelve years. The answer, I think, lies somewhere in the formation of happy and stable marriages being formed and solidified prior to children being brought into the world to begin with. This would bring us to many other topics that we haven't room for here.

Finally, I am not even sure that the fathers in question, as a majority (evidenced by many divorced fathers with whom I am personally acquainted), would desire the arrangement suggested by the author. I assert it is better, although not optimal, for a child to be raised by one parent in a stable setting than by two being shuffled back and forth like a ping pong ball. It is possible for parents to have shared custody while maintaining as normal a home as possible as demonstrated by my brother and his ex-wife and her current and former husband.

kat
Your case illustrates both the strengths and weaknesses of anecdotal evidence. The case you describe is one in whihc joint custody is clearly inappropriate. But there is no way to tell from that example how often that is the case. And I suspect that such cases tend to bunch since people learn their resposibilities from what they see around them.

But a case in which no visitation is ideal is not the best for showing that one model of visitation is better than another. Joint custody is clearly for the best in some cases, the every other weekend model probably works for some, and the no visistation/no distruption for others. But what Shafely is right about is that some default model needs to be adopted so that the parent that opposes it would need to show why that should not be the model in a particular case.

Something more than anecdotal evidence should be the basis for deciding which is the best default.

Dreams That Fall Apart
Stories like this hurt me to the bone.

Why are so many discribing these events from the prospective of the 2nd 3rd and sometimes 4th divorce.

What in the world is going on?

Find out who you are marrying before you get here.

Take some time knowing the person, and stay out of bed with them until you get married.
This one thing clouds judgement worse than anything else.
Make sure that they are mature.

It's also a fact that money is the next biggest destoyer of marriages. Stay out of debt.

Spouses start taking each other for granted after a few years of marriage, you can't let that happen.

These kids today are being destoyed by devided relationships.

The sad thing is that it doesn't seem to stop.
Listen to the number of people who state that there parents divorced.

I'm not passing judgement, but there's got to be a way to stop this.

Marriage starts with commitment. When problems come up both parties need to discuss it without pointing fingers.
Most of the time both parties are fueling a problem.
If both of you are mature, you should be able to determine what the problem is and work it out.

Before you get married, trust your parents advice.
If they see something in the person that sends bad signals, they are probably right.

I can tell you in a heart beat when I see two young people dating and they can't keep there hands off of each other that they are in trouble when the first child comes. An unmature husband will not handle the sacrafices that comes with parenthood. An infant that's unbelievable amounts of time. You don't have a lot of time and enery to be romantic. An unmature husband is going to have roving eyes.

When he gets caught, there you go, we're back to our story.

You've got to figure these things out before you get to the alter.

I trully am sorry for those who's lives have been torn by divorce.

I've been married to the same lady, and mother of 4 children for over 40 years, and not once has the word divorce come up.

My children have told me many time how much they appreciated our commitment. They have never seen me raise my voice to there mother.

My wife has always treated me with respect and my children know that.

Two of my sons have been married over 8 years, 2 of them have not been able to find someone who meets there standards. They would rather stay single than marry the wrong person.

I have 2 grand children that see the stability in our family, and I am hopeful that it will influence them as they seek mates.

Phylis Shafley
is a mother of 6. She spent her most productive years as a homemaker and wife. She got involved politically during the 70s to thwart ERA.

She knows first hand what it takes to raise a family, and she has seen firsthand what no-fault divorce does to children. The majority of divorces are not because of abuse, but adultery and selfishness. The social pathologies of children raised in broken families are well documented.

BTW, it doesn't take a village to raise a child; it takes a mother and father.

KsReaganite
What solution do you propose, if a man and woman no longer wish to be married to one another, for whatever reason, and they have a child? Consider some alternatives to immediate divorce:

1) The state refuses to allow the couple to divorce because staying together is better for their child. Do conservatives actually want the state to have that kind of power over private lives? And don't you think people would just rearrange their lives the way they want to, anyway, with the likelihood that new children born of some new relationship would then be illegitimate? Is that an outcome you'd want?

2) The state recommends marital counseling and/or divorce mediation. Some states already have such recommendations in place and ethical divorce lawyers know this. Some states also require a separate attorney to protect the rights of the child.

I do not personally know of any custody arrangement that is perfect. Some families full of sensitive, mature, decent people manage to provide a child of divorce with a great deal of support on all sides. In most cases, this doesn't happen and divorce is, in some way, always a tragedy for the child or children (or at least I think it is---certainly it challenges a child with a kind of loss that is heartbreaking). Now it's divorce that ravages children, just as it used to be death. In past generations, many kids were affected by the early death of a parent, the remarriage to a less-than-desirable stepparent, or even the death of both parents (with all kinds of horrible arrangements stemming from that).

Split or shared custody can be terribly difficult for a child. On the other hand, full custody can mean the loss of one parent. The loss of one parent can also mean the loss of that entire side of a child's extended family. But forcing (whether via the law, the church, or social disapproval) people to stay married to each other when they have grown to hate each other provides a noxious climate for a child, also. Should a woman stay with a man who becomes an alcoholic and beats her up in front of the children when he's drunk? And what would her staying teach the children?

What is your solution?


Objections
Those opposing a presumption of shared parenting based on disagreement between divorcing/separating parents use a faulty premise. These defenders of the status quo would have us believe that because the parents disagree on the post separation parenting plan, government should step in and impose their vision of what is best for a particular family.

This implies that the government doesn't already have a preconceived custody presumption. This is utterly ridiculous and flies in the face of the realities for children. The overwhelming majority of family court judges default to maternal custody. These people do next to nothing to explore the parenting skills of either parent. Their knee jerk and predictable reaction is to award Mothers custody and deny children a Father.

A shared parenting presumption works because it forces judges to start with shared parenting as the default, but judges can still deviate if there is evidence proving a parent is unfit. Since lawyers and our judiciary is suited to weighing evidence, and our ill suited to determing the best family arrangement, this is also a huge advantage to a shared parenting presumption.

Finally, for those seeking to strenghten marriage, I give you my personal guarantee that divorce will decline when custody is no longer automatically granted to Mothers (along with years worth of unearned income). Mothers currently initiate over 70% of all divorces, and contrary to the feminists excusers, most women do not cite abuse or infidelity as the reason they want to divorce.

Ms. Schafly was right about feminism in the 70's, and she is right once again on the issue of children and their need for two parents.

Doesnt Take a Village to Raise a Child!
It does take a father and a mother to raise a child. I can speak with certainty on this subject because since the first grade along with my siblings we were tossed around from one place to another.

There was a lot of uncertainty about the world then and sometimes a lack of self confidence. While growing up, my brothers including myself had all kinds of surrogate fathers and mothers and actually were lucky because both of our grandmothers were strong and had the good since to instill a sort of character into all of us. On the other hand, our grandfather was more like a father and set the example which we would follow years later in finding our manhood. They both had easy going manners and belonged to the Optimist Club which I think was really cool. They were also active in the church.

There is another dimension to this age old problem? Also, my brothers and I were raised to a certain extent by our neighborhood. We always stayed over at friends and even went on trips together. Even the older folks in the community kind of adopted us along the way and always took such great delight in us as we were growing up. If we fell and hurt ourselves there was always a mom in the neighborhood who would pick us up and tend to our tears if our grandmother or grandfather was not around.

So, I guess you could say we had an immediate family and then an extended family of sorts. As we got older our extended family included teachers who understood everything somehow and our church where we would find other sources of I guess you would call them mentors. During my High School years there were circles of friends which had to be tended to like a garden. In other words, you had to pull the weeds out every once in awhile in order to survive if you didnt want to get into trouble...these were the bad influences.

The problem for me and my brothers was that our biological parents had not really grown up themselves. Our dad was a playboy who liked to chase skirts more than be tied down by kids and our mother was so young she didnt know what to do with so many children. Ms Schlafly is right though because it is better to be with both parents than to lose one half of your childhood which could mean the loss of extended families such as cousins and aunts and uncles too.

As for myself, I had it a little harder when I went over to visit my dad. I always got the belt buckle instead of the belt and was immediately put to extensive work either cleaning or doing yardwork because my dad resented the fact that his mother in law...i.e. my grandmother favored me out of all of her grandchildren. So, he took it out on me and still does to this day...but despite the fearfulness at times about being around my dad..I would still recommend it. I really think it made me a lot stronger. The only thing I did resent in later years was being put to work when I got home from high school and on the weekends and not being allowed to do my homework or just play with our school friends because my dad said I needed to quit wasting time and get to work.

Years later when my dad got custody of me and my brothers I sometimes had to sneak around just to get my homework done because I continued to look after his rental properties and cut all the grasses, clean gutters, hang sheet rock and paint.Then just when we thought we could see the light at the end of the tunnel he married our step-mother and kicked each one of us out of the house when we turned 17 seventeen. At the time, it seemed like the whole world was falling apart...but now that I look back on it...I must say, life continued to get easy after all that. Even when I went into the military...that was a piece of cake now that I think about it. When I graduated high school I had perfect attendance for all of the five years I was there because I preferred to go to school and be in school rather than be at home when my dad was there because I knew that once I went home all hell was gonna break lose again. Its hard to believe it but my dad never drank, smoked or even did drugs. If he had I would probably not be writing this today. LOL

I am totally opposed to Gay Marriage and for gays to be allowed to adopt kids because I think that part of growing up is discovering ones manhood and womanhood and in order to do this one needs role models in order to understand what makes a woman a woman and what makes a man a man. If you want to call it socialization then ok.

Understanding that a womans world in turned inward toward the child or toward her work as opposed to a mans world being turned outward towards the hunter or the creator or protector as E. Merril Root would say it what its all about in discovering ones destiny or fulfilling ones destiny.

Lastly, there are Gay men and women who are mostly conservative and who understand everything I have written and why. These are the ones who accept the reality and purpose of the nuclear family which is primarily to insure that our species continues to reproduce after our own kind and populate to earth. They realize that if they are granted special rights then other groups will come along too and demand special rights which will threaten the natural order of Nature which God has left in place in order that humanity will not become extinct. You probably will not hear them voicing these opinions on talk shows like Oprah Winfrey or Jay Leno...but they are there and they respect the Nuclear Family and the reasons Conservatives give for not wanting to allow them Special Right under the Law.

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