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Monday, April 30, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
Easy to see why U.S. jobs move overseas
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Why do U.S. companies relocate their plants overseas, thereby abolishing U.S. jobs?

a. They can hire workers at very low wages (such as 30 cents an hour in China).

b. The companies don't have to pay any employee benefits.

c. They don't have to comply with safety and environmental regulations.

d. They don't have to pay foreign taxes when they export their products back to us.

The correct answer is all of the above. The United States cannot require foreign governments to impose a minimum wage or safety regulations, or pay employee benefits. But the U.S. can and should do something about (d), the huge tax-rebate racket that lures U.S. companies to lay off American workers and set up shop in foreign countries.

Corporations located in the United States pay big U.S. corporate income and property taxes. It does a lot for their bottom line when they move to a foreign, tax-free utopia.

Foreign governments also tax corporations, but if the company exports its products to the United States, or other countries, the foreign government rebates (forgives) the tax. That creates an irresistible magnet to attract U.S. companies to transfer their plants to a land where they can avoid most of both countries' taxes.

It's no wonder that DaimlerChrysler AG will soon start building cars in China to ship back and sell in the United States under Chrysler names such as Dodge and Jeep. This decision means that 11,000 manufacturing jobs and 2,000 white-collar jobs will be eliminated over the next 24 months.

The suburban utility vehicle assembly plant in Newark, Del., will be closed. The Warren, Mich., truck plant and the St. Louis County, Mo., assembly plants will each lose one of two shifts.

The combination of avoiding U.S. corporate taxes and having Chinese taxes rebated (forgiven) will help DaimlerChrysler AG to sell new cars in the United States much cheaper than any it can manufacture in Detroit.

This should be prohibited because it is a huge subsidy, but world trade agreements have peculiarly defined subsidy to exclude tax rebates to exporters by calling it a rebate of the value-added tax. They get by with this subterfuge because that term is not understood by most Americans.

One way the United States is different from nearly all other countries is its system of taxation. The United States imposes taxes on income. We pay taxes on what we earn. Whereas 157 other countries impose taxes on consumption. They pay taxes on what they buy and call them value-added taxes, or VAT. The VAT system not only operates as a bribe to induce U.S. plants to move overseas, but it also operates to prevent U.S. products from being competitively sold in foreign countries. Here is how it works.

When a U.S. product, such as an automobile, arrives at another country's port, the foreign government slaps on a VAT import tax that is a percentage of the price of the U.S. product, the transportation cost to get it to the foreign country, and the tariff that the foreign country charges.

For 40 years, the United States has been signing trade agreements that were supposed to reduce or eliminate tariffs and thereby promote free trade. European countries sanctimoniously proclaim that they are reducing their tariffs, but in fact they replaced their tariffs with a steadily increasing VAT.

In 1968, the average tariff rate collected by European Union countries was 10.4 percent, and the average VAT rate was 13.44 percent, making a trade barrier against U.S. goods of 23.84 percent. By 2006, the average tariff rate declined to 4.4 percent, but the average VAT rate climbed to 19.36 percent, making the trade barrier against U.S. products 23.76 percent.

Foreign countries substituted high VAT rates for high tariff rates, thereby maintaining their border barriers against competition from U.S. goods. The result is that most foreign countries still have de facto tariffs against U.S. goods that are as high or higher than their tariffs of 40 years ago.

Of course, this is flagrantly contrary to the announced goal of free-trade agreements. But don't look for any relief from the World Trade Organization because the WTO consistently rules against the United States.

Foreign governmental use of the VAT has inflicted U.S. industry with monumental costs, increasing every year, and reaching $327 billion in 2006. That's the sum of the VAT rebates paid to companies that ship foreign-made products to the United States, plus the VAT paid by U.S. companies for the privilege of selling their products in foreign countries.

The current system is not the result of the free market or free trade, but the failure of our government to expose and counter the dishonest practices of U.S. trading partners. After 40 years of tolerating this rip-off, it is time for national leaders to demand a new strategy and a level playing field.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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Local Government chases out business
Another component to this flight of business from our shores is the problem of Left-wing activists who tend to run our major cities.

Here in Los Angeles, the City Counsel has voted to force the Hotels near LAX (our major airport) to pay ABOVE minimum wage to hotel workers. They are calling this "Living Wage," and think they can get away with it because they think the hotels won't flee the state, as have many other businesses.

Of course, I suspect that most of the South and Central American workers who clean the rooms are in the country illegally, and are stealing American jobs, so I hardly have sympathy for them.

I work in the Entertainment Industry, and the encroaching restrictions, taxes and fees that the cities place on the Studios are driving them overseas, to India, Korea, Hungary and even Canada. Yes, even Socialist Canada offers sweeter tax deals to American Entertainment companies than we do.

The latest insult to law-abiding citizens is the MayDay demonstration, inexplicably dubbed "The Great American Boycott" (and more accurately called the "Hate America Boycott") which is to take place tomorrow.

Not only do these illegals come here, take our jobs, crowd our streets, suck up up our resources, and ignore our laws, but now they want to control our local political dialogue.

I for one am disgusted and have written a new post in my blog regarding this. It is called: "Mayday! Mayday! in Los Angeles."

Stop by and rant!!!

Tax policy hurts manufacturers
The solution is the Fairtax, which taxes comsumption in the most visible and efficient way, retail sales of new goods and services. Exports will be shipped and sold without the imbedded taxes and give American goods a chance at world markets.

As long as
... the US government cares how much any corporation or individual makes, and taxes us based on that, we'll remain vulnerable to the relative disadvantage of our tax code.

I agree with Boog, tax consumption. But in order to avoid destroying the economy, income and corporate taxes MUST be abolished, by constitutional amendment, beforehand.

We have got to get over caring what anyone or anything's income is. Corporate income is accountable to stockholders; government at any level should be ignorant of such numbers.

Individual income should not be inspected by the government, or in fact anyone but the employer's accountant. 98% of the manufactured illegality that comes with our current income tax premise (and that costs so much to worry about) would evaporate without a trace, once the income tax was done away with.

Tax property and consumption; tax the use of motor vehicles, aircraft, etc. Of course, giant transfer programs like Social Security and Medicare would have to be eliminated. Too bad.

How Do You Stop The Cycle
Since no politician is honest enough nor has the guts to cut anybody's stipend; and having no control over any other countries, they will simply let the jobs go. They will get theirs either way, but by letting the jobs go, they eventually force US workers to ask for less or not work. As I said the 'State' wins either way. It is surprising what you will give up if you are hungry or greedy.

Of course we will nolonger be able to buy these 'imported' American goods at any price, thereby forcing the manufacturers to sell the peoduct in the country that made it. Let's see how many $50,000 cars they sell then.

BULL, Phyllis!
Your premise is absolutely, totally, completely false! The U.S. is a net INsourcer of jobs, and furthermore, these jobs are higher paying than the ones being outsourced.

(credit to Fletch for the following):

Manufacturing employment and manufacturing output are two entirely different things. Due to the huge increase in productivity in US manufacturing, total industrial output and manufacturing in particular has grown steadily even as manufacturing employment has steadily declined. According to the Federal Reserve’s latest statistical release, total industrial output is up about 12% over 2002 and manufacturing is up 13.5% over the same period. It’s roughly double what it was in twenty years ago. Last year, US manufacturers produced more than $2.3 trillion in goods.

At the same time, manufacturing has declined as a percentage of the overall economy, albeit at nowhere near the pace of the decline in employment, but this is neither cause for alarm or even surprising. As a study by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York indicates, the US economy (like those in other countries) is undergoing a structural transformation that is shifting jobs from old sectors (manufacturing chief among them) to newer sectors (such as health care and financial services), just as it shifted from an agriculturally dominated economy to an industrial one beginning more than a century ago. But then, manufacturing has been declining as a percentage of the total of all the major economies of the world as the growth of knowledge-based industries has ballooned worldwide.

Other countries are simply not growing their industrial base at the “expense” of the US. In fact, virtually every other major country has seen declines in manufacturing employment.

A commonly repeated canard bemoans the decrease in manufacturing as a percentage of the economy because economic strength is primarily dependent upon the production of physical goods and the country that sacrifices such activities in the name of short-term economic growth (sometimes written off as mere expediency) is ultimately doomed. If that were the case, however, then most of the industrialized world would have been in steady economic decline for decades and the countries with the greatest percentage of their economy involved in manufacturing – Belize, Turkmenistan and Cuba – would be the world’s economic powerhouses.

What about all the high paying manufacturing jobs that used to so easily support a family in the past? It’s called the “good old days” fallacy. The problem, of course, is that nearly every time it is brought up, it is completely wrong. The 1950s, for example, are portrayed as economically idyllic. In fact, economic growth for the decade averaged about half a percentage point, primarily due to two recessions and fully nine quarters of economic decline, unemployment rates (when adjusted for participation rates) were considerably higher than they are today and many of the luxuries that we take for granted today simply didn’t exist at the time. The same is true for the high paying manufacturing job.



In reality, manufacturing has consistently been one of the lowest paying sectors of the economy for decades. Of the 13 private industry categories tracked by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, manufacturing has consistently been among the lower paying industries typically outpacing only leisure and hospitality, retail trade, and “other services” – a general category that also excludes financial activities, education and health services and professional and business services, among others. This is hardly some new phenomenon – the same thing was true a quarter century ago.

More can be written about the myths of outsourcing and the decline of manufacturing, but why bother? The point is that economic ignoranuses come on both sides of the political spectrum (e.g. Schlafly vs Krugman). The real dangers to the U.S. economy do not come from the private sector allocating its resources most efficiently. Rather, the dangers arise from tax and spend politicians robbing the private economy for their own aggrandizement, and from the woeful and pitiful state of economics education held by the voters electing and re-electing these same politicians.

Taxes Will Not Fix Child and Slave Labor
I do agree with a consumption and or flat tax with no write offs. Yet that does not offset the following! This would be great against other western countries.

a. They can hire workers at very low wages (such as 30 cents an hour in China).

b. The companies don't have to pay any employee benefits.

c. They don't have to comply with safety and environmental regulations.

D. Stealing of 200 billion dollars a year in IP rights!




B-cat deal with facts not what you feel
Try dealing with facts not what you feel! Look at the debt we are driving up by you promoting the selling off of our Country!

America Is Drowning In Debt

EC-We are now importing more and producing less each year while continuing to sell off more of our large companies (See the list of companies sold). Our tax base has receded and we now have fewer American owned companies remaining to produce wealth and generate taxes.

Our government now must borrow more (See the list of countries to whom we are indebted) to continue to operate and pay its bills. This has impacted every level of our economy.

Living on ever increasing debt since 1987:

• Home mortgages from $1.8 trillion to $8.2 trillion
• Consumer debt from $2.7 trillion to $11 trillion
• Government debt limit recently increased to $8.9 trillion
• Household debt has quadrupled
• The 2006 balance of trade deficit (debt) of $765 billion, equals over $1.4 million dollars leaving the country every minute to pay for excessive imports.

Balance of trade deficits (The means through which foreign countries accumulate our money to buy us out)

• 2001 - $363 billion = $690,000 per minute
• 2002 - $421 billion = $801,000 per minute
• 2003 - $495 billion = $942,000 per minute
• 2004 - $611 billion = $1,200,000 per minute
• 2005 - $711 billion = $1,400,000 per minute
• 2006 - $765 billion = $1,450,000 per minute

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/america-is-drowning-in-debt

Big deal buzzkat!
"According to the Federal Reserve ... total industrial output is up ~12% over 2002 and manufacturing is up 13.5% over the same period. It’s roughly double what it was 20 yrs ago. Last year, US manufacturers produced more than $2.3 T in goods."

On a dollar basis, my paycheck says I make much more than I did 20 yrs ago, but my buying power hasn't kept pace. Much of my money goes to taxes ... taxes to support illegal immigration and welfare programs for folks that could use a manufacturing job that moved overseas.

"In reality, manufacturing has consistently been one of the lowest paying sectors of the economy for decades."

Manufacturing is low paying precisely because Phyllis is right ... foreign manufacturers exporting to the U.S. benefit from cheap labor and tax advantages.

BUZZCAT FACTS NOT SPIN
The country has lost 3 million jobs from outsourcing since Bush took office; more than 200,000 of those are the high-paying, high-tech jobs that are the life’s-blood of every economy.

Consider this from the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) June edition of Foreign Affairs, the Bible of globalists and plutocrats:

“Between 2000 and 2003 alone, foreign firms built 60,000manufacturing plants in China. European chemical companies, Japanese carmakers, and US industrial conglomerates are all building factories in China to supply export markets around the world. Similarly, banks, insurance companies, professional-service firms, and IT companies are building R&D and service centers in India to support employees, customers, and production worldwide.” (“The Globally integrated Enterprise” Samuel Palmisano, Foreign Affairs page 130)

“60,000manufacturing plants” in 3 years?!?

“Banks, insurance companies, professional-service firms, and IT companies”?

No job is safe. American elites and corporate tycoons are loading the boats and heading for foreign shores.

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/is-cheney-betting-on-economic-collapse



Okay, Konop
What do you propose? On the one hand you declare that taxes will not fix child and slave labor and on the other you decry the outsourcing of jobs to those very same economies. You really can't have it both ways.

If you want to stop child and slave labor, you will work to create as many jobs as possible in every third world country in existance. This will cause a demand for labor which will lead to higher and higher local wages as employers compete for the best employees. But wait, if you do that, it would mean that American workers would lose their jobs.

By the way, what are the statistics for median income in the US? How about median home values? If you are going to use mortgage debt and household debt in terms of dollars, you need to provide related valuations in dollars. Typically, people are happy about expanding mortgage debt because that means that more individuals are homeowners - part of the "American Dream".

Do Americans hold more in consumer debt than ever before? Probably. The reason isn't that they don't earn enough, the reason is that they can't constrain their spending. Exactly how is that Bush's fault?

REAL FREE TRADE!
ctjaeger

We have to set up real free trade deals. If we trade with a Country that has a real legal system, that honors IP rights, human rights….. we should have no tariffs or subsidies.

If Countries refuse to work with civilized manner we should penalize the goods to stop giving them incentive to cheat!

As far as tax policy, I would use a combination of the fair tax and flat tax. That way we could lower the transaction cost to offset the transition out of the current tax system.

And if we had a very low flat tax around 5 to 10 % with no write offs it would give us the same positives but even out the cash flow of revenue. Also it would clean up the issues regarding bought and paid for tax policy that favors large corporation over small business.

Jeff
^^^On a dollar basis, my paycheck says I make much more than I did 20 yrs ago, but my buying power hasn't kept pace.^^^


Frankly, that says more about you than the economy.

Konop folded spindled mutilated
For those interested, you can read Konop's nonsense shredded to bits in Fletch's blog.

http://fletch4freedom.townhall.com/

Buzzcat & Fools Gold
BusinessWeek Debunks the “Great Labor Shortage Lie”

BusinessWeek: A global labor crunch, already being felt by some employers, appears to have intensified in recent months. That’s in spite of widely publicized layoffs, including Citigroup’s plans to shed as many as 15,000 staffers… Corporations are determined to keep labor costs under control, so they’re reaching deeper into their bag of tricks…Some are lowering their standards for new hires or moving operations to virgin territories other outsourcers haven’t discovered…

Economists, of course, will tell you there’s no such thing as a labor shortage. From a worker’s viewpoint, many so-called shortages could quickly be solved if employers were to offer more money. And worldwide, millions of people still can’t find jobs. The strongest evidence that there’s no general shortage today is that overall worker pay has barely outpaced inflation.

http://www.controlcongress.com


Our trade agreements are NOT FREE TRADE
The bottom line is that what our politicians and media are calling free trade agreements, simply are NOT. They are managed trade agreements that were designed to benefit select international companies, in addition to setting up an international ruling body, the WTO, that sits above our own Congress.

True free trade is good for our country. NAFTA, CAFTA, OMAN, GATT, etc. are not.

Liberty
YOU ARE RIGHT!

The NEOCOMEN are destroying our COUNTRY!

buzzkat
"Frankly, that says more about you than the economy."

No, it is called inflation, buzzkat. The value of our dollar has gone down drastically. As more and more dollars are put in circulation by the Federal Reserve, the value of each goes down. Ever since we allowed ourselves to be removed from the gold standard, this practice has run rampant.

This, in addition to borrowing from foreign countries, is how our government is funding their drunken sailor spending habits. No, they aren't raising taxes, but they nonetheless are stealing from our pockets by devaluing our currency and indebting us beyond our eyeballs.

John Konop
"The NEOCOMEN are destroying our COUNTRY!"

Yes, they and the other one-worlders on both sides of the aisle.

Liberty
I say all the time NEOLIBS are NEOCONS are cut out the same cloth!WE NEED A THIRD PARTY!

Tax Consumption
Something tells me that we need a Value Added Tax added to all imports also.

Liberty
I entered the working world in 1980 when there was REAL inflation. When I bought a house, the interest rate on my mortgage was 15%. I got a job in the oil industry, which was the only industry booming at the time, thanks to Carter's idiotic policies. The overall unemployment rate at the time was 12%. Inflation was at double digits and the prime rate hit 20%. (!!!) Since the, with the Reagan revolution, the U.S has been the engine of the world's economy and living standards for any American who cares to work have skyrocketed. At the same time, many Americans seem to have become the whiniest, spoiled crybabies on Earth. Witness, for instance, Konop's posts and the constant drumbeat of negativism by liberals. Sorry, pal, I know what hardship is - my parents as penniless immigrants after WW2 experienced it. They became successful, productive members of the upper middle class SOLELY through their hard work, which they were able to accomplish due to the fantastic, limitless opportunities granted by this country. Today's Americans, the richest, most pampered society in history, have no idea what poverty, hardship and deprivation are. To repeat, today's Americans are history's foremost experts at whining and complaining.

buzzkat is clueless!
buzzkat writes:
"BULL, Phyllis!
Your premise is absolutely, totally, completely false! The U.S. is a net INsourcer of jobs, and furthermore, these jobs are higher paying than the ones being outsourced."

When I showed up for work last Monday, there was a guy from India sitting in my cube. No warning, no email, no phone call from management. He says he's here to "shadow" me for 2 months, then he's going back to India. When I asked him how much one needed to make to live in India, $600 ~ $1,000 PER YEAR was his answer.

BTW, my pay is close to 6 figures. I'm doubting he's making near that.

Buzcat you must be for Clinton


If I follow your logic since we had the lowest debt and the highest growth you should be A Clinton FAN!

Carter was a terrible President. But this post is about our policy that has been sending jobs overseas. The truth is Clinton and Gore was the fathers of this policy via NAFTA and WTO CHINA. And his brother Bush has only made it worse.

Now you and democrats can spin it anyway you want but real wages are down, saving rate from 11% to negative 1 since NAFTA. Try dealing with facts!

Living on ever increasing debt since 1987:

• Home mortgages from $1.8 trillion to $8.2 trillion
• Consumer debt from $2.7 trillion to $11 trillion
• Government debt limit recently increased to $8.9 trillion
• Household debt has quadrupled
• The 2006 balance of trade deficit (debt) of $765 billion, equals over $1.4 million dollars leaving the country every minute to pay for excessive imports.

Balance of trade deficits (The means through which foreign countries accumulate our money to buy us out)

• 2001 - $363 billion = $690,000 per minute
• 2002 - $421 billion = $801,000 per minute
• 2003 - $495 billion = $942,000 per minute
• 2004 - $611 billion = $1,200,000 per minute
• 2005 - $711 billion = $1,400,000 per minute
• 2006 - $765 billion = $1,450,000 per minute

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/america-is-drowning-in-debt



Konop
Foreign nations -especially nations that hold a trade surplus pour thier cash back into US companies and assets. This year alone, almost $3 trillion dollars will be invested in the US by foreign nations. Why? Because, the US is about the only nation left in the world with healthy coporate profit margins. That is, we make money for investors.

In the long run, China is building a house of cards. Ourside of thier cheap labor force, they offer nothing to foregin investors. The only thing they've managed to do is commoditize unskilled labor. China doesn't allow a consumption based economy, nor does it allow the market to set wages. People are allowed to move to the cities and obtain some skills, but at a huge price. Four families share an apartment, thier wages and benefits are frozen, and the women are not allowed to have more than one child. They have no disposable income, cannot move up promotion wise, and if they perform poorly it is back to the village and the rice fields.

China accumulates billions by doing billions of tasks at rock bottom prices. Thier economy is inefficient, labor intensive, and cannot generate any wealth. Thier slime profits cannot even turn marginal returns if invested in Chinese companies- so they go abroad and put thier American dollars back into American companies and Treasury notes.

Now, who is getting the best end of the bargin?

JPK
The only problems are the facts are not playing out that way.

The country has lost 3 million jobs from outsourcing since Bush took office; more than 200,000 of those are the high-paying, high-tech jobs that are the life’s-blood of every economy.

Consider this from the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) June edition of Foreign Affairs, the Bible of globalists and plutocrats:

“Between 2000 and 2003 alone, foreign firms built 60,000manufacturing plants in China. European chemical companies, Japanese carmakers, and US industrial conglomerates are all building factories in China to supply export markets around the world. Similarly, banks, insurance companies, professional-service firms, and IT companies are building R&D and service centers in India to support employees, customers, and production worldwide.” (“The Globally integrated Enterprise” Samuel Palmisano, Foreign Affairs page 130)

“60,000manufacturing plants” in 3 years?!?

“Banks, insurance companies, professional-service firms, and IT companies”?

No job is safe. American elites and corporate tycoons are loading the boats and heading for foreign shores. The only thing they’re leaving behind is the insurmountable debt that will be shackled to our children.


buzzkat
I understand what you're saying and I agree with much of it. America was never intended to be a nanny state; it was intended to provide the opportunity for a person to get out there, work their tail off and succeed, based on their own merits. I don't recall anything our Founding Fathers wrote that spoke of guaranteeing outcomes.

That said. This is the very reason why I and many other believers in traditional conservative principles are speaking out about what is going on in our country today. We are on a bad path, my friend, and are getting further and further away from constitutional principles and individual liberty. You know as well as I, that things have been moving in this direction for a long time, however, after 9-11 they escalated dramatically. I don't know if it was because we were scared and meekly followed along with whatever anyone wanted to do to that promised to 'keep us safe', or whether we just went to sleep, falsely believing we had one of our own in office... a Republican.

So yes, I believe we are all responsible for making our own way. It is government's job to get out of the way. That is not what they're doing, buzzkat. These misnamed trade agreements are not free trade and are resulting in our manufacturing base being shipped overseas, in addition to a large percentage of our good paying jobs. This is happening because of government interference, not free enterprise. Furthermore, our government is seemingly supporting anything they can to shut down small businesses and small to medium farmers. This isn't free enterprise, buzzkat.

Buzzkat is actually correct, not Phyllis
This is townhall! I would expect us all to have read a little Hazlitt around here. Buzzkat is actually correct in concluding that the outsourcing of manufactoring jobs is not the black death for our economy like so many say it is. How is this so?

Well Phyllis actually touched on the answer in her article. She admitted that DaimlerChrysler AG will be able "to sell new cars in the United States much cheaper than any it can manufacture in Detroit."

Now we must look at the big picture here and not only at individual groups, and we should already be clued in that allowing the private sector to function more efficiently may not be such a bad thing. When DaimlerChrysler sells cheaper cars in the U.S., who benefits? The consumers, of course. Each car-buying American now has that much more money in his pocket to invest in whatever other industry he chooses, spurring economic growth (generally the same effect as tax cuts).

Of course we all know that economic growth results in more jobs. So, while jobs may be lost in Newark and Warren, others are being created in varioius other industries in which the American people choose to invest. We should understand that however unfortunate it is for workers who lose jobs, certain industries will always be forced to shrink or even die in order to support the growth of others in a growing economy.

But the story does not just stop with a simple trade-off of jobs. By allowing the private sector to function more efficiently, we have eliminated a good deal of inefficiency. This should be somewhat obvious. First, we have eliminated the resource-drain of needless bureaucrats engaging in regulation such as price setting. Second, even if we assume the same numbers of cars are being sold after the "outsourcing" (though, in reality, the lower price tag would attract more consumers), we have increased productivity in other industries.

In the end, a more efficient private sector results in increased economic growth, ultimately providing more jobs.

Was it Malden Mills?
I am going from memory but I think the company was called Malden Mills. They manufactured Polar Fleece. About twenty years ago they had a fire that destroyed their manufacturing capability. The owner kept all his workers on full salary while the plant was being rebuilt. This took something like two years. The owner said his father had taught him that when the going gets rough, you should stand up and try to be a man.

Quite a different corporate attitude than that seen in today's plant owner who outsources to child labor so he can pay his CEO more than King Midas used to get and tells his workers, who have shown up faithfully for forty years on the promise of a pension, that there will, very sorry, no pension.


rha
That would be true if this was free trade, but it is not.

Now that you mentioned Hazlitt, let's take a look at what the Mises institute has to say about the issue:

The following extracted from, "Who Killed Free Trade" by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. (1996)
http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=189&sortorder=articledate

"Free trade has an even more conspicuous killer in the Nafta and Gatt treaties. Though advertised as free trade, Nafta set up supranational boards, expanded bad laws to the entire region, gave billions in direct subsidies to Mexico, benefited government-connected big businesses and hurt small and medium-size firms, and linked the dollar to the peso via a "stabilization" fund, thus foreordaining the bailout of Mexico.

The Gatt treaty created a Keynes-inspired, Geneva-based World Trade Organization. Here was a trade deal that was openly touted, along with the IMF and the World Bank, as the third pillar of the New World Order. It had a Secretariat, a General Council, a Ministerial Conference, dozens of committees and councils, and dispute settlement bodies. Signers had to vow to pursue Keynesian fiscal and ILO-style labor policies.

Every statist from Wilson to Carter had tried to create a world trade tribunal, but none had succeeded. We were better off for it. In the post-war era trade was becoming freer, tariffs lower, and the international economy less and less regulated by governments. Protectionism and tariffs were a problem, but increasingly less so.

But the entire establishment united in favor of Nafta and Gatt, as it does for most increases in government power. Even worse, the establishment used the Big Lie technique and stole the moral and economic credibility of "free trade" to do it. Leading the parade was the Nafta Network and the Gang of Gatt: think tanks, newspapers, magazines, academics, and even Rush Limbaugh.

Working alone, principled libertarians exposed these depredations, including the Mexican bailout, in an effort to save the ideal of free trade from corruption. But against the will of the American people, both treaties were slipped through Congress and signed by Bill Clinton.

Both treaties have been a disaster, and every one of the rosy economic forecasts has proven wrong. Experienced businessmen tell stories of mountains of paperwork and having to attend classes to plow through new regulations. There are new fines, fees, waiting lists, quotas, and every other kind of roadblock. These treaties didn't make trade freer--and even if they had, it would have been the wrong means to a worthy end--but only increased government oppression of enterprise.

The backlash has arrived at last. Thanks to those who gave managed trade a free-trade cover, the target of public hatred has been the classical ideal of a global free market. Politicians in both parties are seeking to reimpose a system of trade restriction, against the rights of consumers and producers.

All this is dangerous for our liberty and prosperity. Trade restrictions, Ludwig von Mises argued in "Autarky and its Consequences" (1943), are the fulfillment of domestic economic intervention. When governments destroy prosperity, there are always politicians--FDR comes to mind--willing to take the fast track to economic stimulus, the long term be damned.

But as Stuart Chase, the New Dealer who coined the term, said, "National planning and economic nationalism must go together." He favored both, just as believers in free enterprise must reject both. The free market at home and abroad is not an option, but an indispensable basis for prosperity and peace, and the uncompromised policy of any truly civilized nation. "


Corporate Greed
Greed folks is why manufacturing jobs have been outsourced. Paying a Chinese worker much less per hour than an American worker means more profits! It won't be long before our economy consists of washing in each others laundry. A zero sum game.

Jorn Konop
Until the end of WWII know job was "safe" -including mine. I work in IT and struggle to keep my skills up to date. It is the way it has always been.

Cut spending, cut taxes
Cut spending, then begin to cut taxes for everyone in America.
Hold politicians responsible with jail time for spending on unconstitutional waste.

Until we get our "House" in order we are economically and militarily unsafe.

Our uncontrolled spending could be the second most national security threat that we have today.
Doesn't that mean big government politicians are a threat to our survival?

I hope Americans will remember these things in 2008.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com

Don't even bother complaining
Nothing will change until America crashes and burns (or that is, finishes crashing and burning). Of course, when that happens, you'll have people like Larry Kudlow blaming it on high capital gains taxes or some such horsepooey.

Sam
"Invest in companies outside of the US that don't participate with our leaders and government in this sharade."

Who would that be?

Also, why do you think the Euro is stable? I'm not so sure. More stable than the U.S. Dollar, that's for sure. But the EU elitists running the show are clearly one-worlders.

Sam
Just to make myself clear, I don't disagree with the message you are sending. Our dollar is in DEEP trouble; worse than I have ever seen. I too am trying to figure out the best course of action, so I'm trying to pump your brain a bit.

Hooey to Jeff
^^^On a dollar basis, my paycheck says I make much more than I did 20 yrs ago, but my buying power hasn't kept pace.^^^

Twenty years ago I paid $800 for a calculator that we called a "four-banger" -- add, subtract, multiply, divide, square, square root and percent. That was all it could do. Better ones are being given away in cereal boxes today.

Ten years ago my first digital camera cost me $1200 and used floppy discs to store the pictures and software so complicated it took ages to use. Today a four year old can download and print photos from a digital camera that costs 10% of what that one cost.

Twenty years ago a family did not "need" three bathrooms, five teevee sets (one of the 50" flat screen plasma high definition"), six computers, four cars, two boats and a cottage.

Had your "Needs" remained at the level they were twenty years ago (or even 10 years ago) your salary would have kept pace nicely.

P.S. The reason most routine mindless jobs are "outsourced" is UNIONS. UNIONS. UNIONS. UNIONS. UNIONS. If you pass a law against outsourcing to humans, what is going to happen is that these routine manufacturing jobs and all their source plants will be automated. No net jobs will be created. Looking at the Big Three Automakers now you can see what happens when your whole work force retires and all your income is going to pay people who aren't doing any work. In the same way our transit system in Toronto is on the verge of collapse because very time they manage to extract more money (by screaming and kicking) from the Province, there's a strike and it all goes to up the wages of the union employees. Ditto the school system and any other unionized thugocracy.

Only 1 Presidential Candidate...
...seems to want to talk about this problem and puts forth a plan to do something about it. DUNCAN HUNTER. We need to support him. Go to his website: http://www.gohunter08.com

Send him a few bucks. He needs it as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce funnels all its millions to "the big 3". DD

Silly Gabby
^^^You don't compare new "trivial" technology when you talk about the cost of living. You compare eggs, milks, housing, etc. THAT is what people cannot keep up with.^^^




More Americans are homeowners than ever. Obesity has become a major problem in this country. Middle and high school kids own all sorts of cell phones, PDAs, MP3 players, etc. The nation's roads are congested with cars - most of them under 5 years old, driven by people commuting to work, traveling on vacation, or kids cruising. Malls are packed with people (overwhelmingly women) shopping for high priced junk. Drive-through fast food outlets have lines of cars idling at 1 A.M. in the morning. Etc, etc, etc, etc.

I don't know where you live, but you are clueless. Hunger is what occurs in Somalia, not America. One measure of the decadence of a society is the whining and complaining performed by people such as yourself, immersed in a consumer-oriented, materialistic culture, fed by junk TV, who have no clue how good they have it. Disgusting.

NO US jobs
Almost none of my friends - design engineers makes as much as they made 10 years ago.
I took 40% cut...No other choice.
My boss said: "I may have an engineer in China for 12k a year."
Oops, he is right. Who gives a damn that my expenses are 100x higher that those of a Chinese engineer's?

Stop buying Mercedes, Jeeps, etc.
That, rather than pontification, will send a message to all!

The solution is...........
Put our government on a diet. Make them cut, cut, cut and cut programs and taxes. The more powerful the Federal government is the closer we are to full Socialism and then what freedoms do you have? Oh yes, if we don't, you will still be able to buy some our your little toys like electronic gizmos but you may have to check your brain before opening your mouth for fear that someone will be listening.

Get rid of taxation of income. If the rest of the world is on a different path then we maybe we need to examine our path to see if we all are headed in the same direction. Fair tax would be better than income tax.

Be aware of agendas. All the 'experts' have some kind of agenda they are selling. Some are better than others. Just because an individual has BA,MA,PHD behind his name does not mean he is telling the truth. I wonder if, by some miracle, only the truth would show when printed would our publications have more white space or black letters? Truth is a very precious commoditity. I believe that if a room full of Americans were told the truth about a subject, like trade, they would be able to make the best choice of how to participate in trade. At the present I believe we are being treated like sheeple. It is time for us to examine in whom we place our trust! And then do something about it before it is too late.

Moving Production Lines & Jobs Overseas
This is yet another good reason to pass H.R. 25, The Fair Tax Act. That bill is in the Ways & Means Committee. It should be voted out for debate. The FairTax will replace the entire federal "tax system" with a single-rate progressive National Retail Sales Tax, collected by the States. By so doing, it will remove an average 25.9% (taxes & compliance costs) from prices of American goods and services.

Since exported American goods and services will no longer have that federal tax compoenent in their pricing, when foreign governments add VATs or whatever, our products will be able to compete. Their goods and services will still arrive here tax-free, but the FairTax will apply to them, the same as to our goods and services.

The FairTax rate is 23%, figured inclusively, the way the Income Tax is figured, or 30%, figured exclusively, the way sales taxes are figured. The corresponding hidden tax figures today are 25.9% and 34.9%.

The FairTax provides the same revenue for Uncle Sam, because collection is less costly and more effective. Today, the IRS collects less than half the Income Taxes owed.

The FairTax will jump-start the economy, which will grow between two and three times as rapidly. It will also fund Social Security & Medicare and, because it makes tax collectors of service businesses, will dissolve the "underground economy" that employs most illegal aliens as "day laborers."

H.R. 25 is the most thoroughly researched tax bill ever. In 2004, 75 economists wrote a letter to Congress & the President, urging them to pass it & sign it. The bill has 58 cosponsors, more than any tax bill in 80 years.

Check out the FairTax at http://www.fairtax.org. It is non-partisan, like Women's Suffrage, so it will only pass when enough people in Congress are convinced they need to support it to be reelected.

Abortion or $.30 jobs you pick
lilly writes: Was it Malden Mills?
…… About twenty years ago they had a fire that destroyed their manufacturing capability. The owner kept all his workers on full salary while the plant was being rebuilt. This took something like two years. The owner said his father had taught him that when the going gets rough, you should stand up and try to be a man.

Quite a different corporate attitude than that seen in today's plant owner who outsources to child labor so he can pay his CEO more than King Midas used to get and tells his workers, who have shown up faithfully for forty years on the promise of a pension, that there will, very sorry, no pension.


Deskjockey responds: My friend you are completely correct it is a different philosophy today. Obviously his father was an idiot and raise one for a son. I tried to figure out how Malden could violate the laws of nature and economics by your posting of compassion. How can you can pay your employees for two years to not work, as insurance would probably only cover a small portion of that. Well I know that Lilly uses feelings instead of facts so I decided to find out how Marxism works in Malden.

The answer is simply, get somebody else to pay it for you. What Malden Mills did is file bankruptcy twice since then, letting their creditors get stuck with the bill for Feuerstein’s compassion. Now I’m not against compassion, but if I loan you money I think I should be asked if I want my money to go to charity or be paid back to me. Well after 2 bankruptcies and then wholesaling the business off to some investment group, Feuerstein, proved once again, you can not fight the laws of nature or its science of economics.

PS, I’m for child labor. That is why I suspect China is loosening up on forced abortion, the kids now have value. But then liberals don't comprehend these cause and effect things.

I say good riddance
I support the effort to drive companies out of AmeriKa. For 60 years, we tried every means possible to give them the message but they were so greedy they wouldn’t leave. We taxed them higher than any country in the Western World. We strangled them with endless giver-ment locust going to a fro, with OSHA, EPA, endless lawsuits on discrimination and other PC causes. We made them pay employees more than they are worth. We sued them if customers misused the products. We try to humiliate their CEOs daily as evil and greedy in the media and before congress. We unleash the protectors of the people, like Michael Moore, on them to make films and movies to show how evil they are. We formed labor unions to charge them a labor surcharge.

Well it is about time these menaces got the hint and left. Good riddance.

Cost of living
We could make a big chunk of it -- as much as half -- go away, simply by deregulating the economy.

The reason we pay so much for eggs, milk, and butter is that we hang the costs of regulatory impulses on consumer prices. When you buy milk, you're not just buying milk.

- You're buying the regulatory employment costs of everyone in the chain that delivers milk to you. I'm not just talking about the minimum wage here. From milk-processing workers to delivery truck drivers to the grocer's employees, you are paying for employer contributions to medical insurance, worker compensation insurance, and Social Security. And this is all pre-union/labor negotiation. It's just what government mandates, not what private parties may agree to.

- You are paying the property taxes of everyone whose property is incident to selling milk to you: the guy with the cows, the guy with the trucks, the milk-processing facility, the grocer. You're also, of course, paying their corporate income taxes.

- You are paying the costs to everyone in the delivery chain of complying with government regulations for safety and environmental impacts. This is a short statement, but entails thousands of pages of regulation, and billions in cost nationwide every year.

- You are paying for the regulatory costs included in the price of motor fuel as it increases -- with everything you buy that had to be delivered via motorized transport. Regulatory price drivers encompass everything from reducing the local supply by not renewing offshore drilling leases, to seasonal and local shifts in mandatory fuel mixtures, to the loss of efficiency inherent in not retooling refineries, to environmental mitigation fees paid by various entities in the petroleum supply chain. Our price of gas goes up because we demand to not have to look at or smell refineries, to not have drilling visible off our coasts, and to have fewer pollutants emitted from internal combustion engines.

- You are paying the delivery driver's commercial motor vehicle fees to the state, as well as for his gas.

The price of a gallon of milk on the grocery shelf is what it costs to have milk AND government funding of social transfer programs, AND government regulation of the economy's impact on the environment, AND special revenue streams from fees and property taxes to state and local government.

Every benefit you vote yourself costs you more at the cash register. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Illegals Marching
Illegal aliens will be marching across the country on Tuesday to "DEMAND" citizenship.

Bring out he patty wagons and let them march right in.

stable euro?
Also, why do you think the Euro is stable? I'm not so sure. More stable than the U.S. Dollar, that's for sure. But the EU elitists running the show are clearly one-worlders
===================

Central banks can and do manipulate currencies to further their goals. In this case we have another factor.

When Saddam Hussein, in 2000, started selling his oil in euros, it was at 83 cents. In 2004 when we had thrown him out and returned oil to sales in dollars, the euro had risen to $1.05. Now, Iran and Venezuela are moving to the euro and other nations as well since that move is causing the euro to be in more demand and the dollar in less demand. Today, the euro is $1.36 or 64% higher than just in 2000 when Saddam showed the world that we were vulnerable through the sale of oil in euros.

Since the world had to buy oil in dollars, the demand for dollars was high and it kept its value high. That is no longer the case.

Also, on a per capita basis, the U.S. is sinking. On a buying power basis in the world, it is sinking. On a debt basis, it is sinking. On a trade basis it is sinking. On the growth of middle-class compared to other nations, it is sinking.

It is an economic empire in decline even though the GDP is rising. It is rising because government spending is part of GDP and that spending in healthcare, for example, is rapidly rising.

That means that all the jobs in healthcare tied to Medicare and Medicaid depend on government spending for their salaries. The tax revenues they pay on their income is simply a return of some of the tax revenues that went to pay their salaries in the first place.

One for every six private sector jobs is a government job. Over 1/2 the nation (52%) now gets some type of funding from the government. About 60% of the jobs in the U.S. are dependent on government spending to some degree. Thus, every time the government tries to cut spending, they cause a downturn or recession.

Inflation is so much higher than being reported that social security checks would be 70% higher than they are now if it had been reported accurately.

Food prices are rising over 10% a year now, (thank you ethanol and corn prices) so all you save (what savings) at the pump will be paid out for higher food prices. Because the dollar is declining, all goods we import are costing more and food is being imported more and more.

But, don't ask Congress to reform the entitlements or tax code because voters will toss them out if they do. The 52% getting something from the government doesn't want that to end.

As the one comment stated, only hitting bottom will cause voters to demand reform that works. The other comment about Peter Shiff's site or the site he is on for moving your savings overseas and investing overseas, is becoming more and more popular among all economic advisers. It is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mutual fund managers, economic advisers, investment analysts are all telling their clients to get out of the dollar and U.S. investments that don't make their profits in foreign currencies overseas.

The more they stop investing here, the more companies move to where they are investing. The more they stop investing here, the lower the dollar goes. The lower the dollar goes, the more they move investments out of the U.S.

You can't stop this until the voters demand total reform of government, tax policy, entitlements, trade policy (free trade isn't NAFTA) and while, yes, we will lose some manufacturing, like Ireland, we can bring other manufacturing here even with higher wages and social programs. They now have a higher mfg. wage than we do and about 90% of computers sold in Europe are made in Ireland. We import many of our more popular drugs from the pharmaceuticals that have moved to Ireland from here.

More and more high-tech is leaving the U.S. because regulations, like Sarbanes-Oxley don't exist in foreign stock exchanges. The number of IPO's here and listings here has dropped radically because we are no longer the best place for business. The other places always had lower wage workers. But, now they have lower taxes, lower regulation, rapidly growing middle-class. From almost zero in India and China a decade or so ago, they now have 500 million middle-class consumers. Chinese workers making $2 and hour in the GM plants there, have 4 or 5 times the buying power making their buying power wage about $10.

Plus, their government gave them their home. The government is building them new power plants, roads, rail lines, pipelines and even entire new cities to replace the old delapidated cities. They are doing this with "our dollars," more than with taxes from their own citizens. We are funding the growth of the middle-class, the military, the infrastructure and so that $10 an hour worker (in buying power) is probably living like a $30,000 worker here because here the $30,000 worker is having to not only fund China's growth in the prices he pays for Chinese goods but fund our own government with sales tax, payroll tax, income tax, fuel tax, telephone tax, property tax, etc.

Buying power, not income is the only way to measure wealth. Based on buying power, the ranking of nations puts China right behind the U.S. and EU with $10 trillion even though GDP ranking has them at $2.512 trillion.

China is losing thousands of manufacturing jobs, more than the U.S. to even lower wage nations than it is. Yet, it is gaining the higher tech manufacturing jobs that those nations don't have the educated work force for.

By the way, while they are building their infrastructure with our dollars we spend on them, our infrastructure is all rated "C" and "D". That is rail, roads, water systems, bridges, power grids, refineries, pipelines, etc. We have to spend the majority of our money on entitlements and can't afford to fund infrastructure maintenance. What money we do have for those has been going for "new roads" to meet the needs of a 50% increase in population from 200 million to 300 million these last 5 decades.

Buzzkat
Thanks for hitting my favorite absurdity: Without manufacturing JOBS we will die. And if manufacturing jobs go overseas, it will destroy the US.

Sorry, but those "essential" industry arguments are absurd. We have seen JOBS decline in agriculture for a century or more, yet output has increased. The same for manufacturing jobs more recently. That is technology. As we learn and invest more cpiatl, we get better output with less labor. It is called progress. It is a good thing?

If we had only one farmer and one laborer and they produced every bit of farming and manufacturing output we ever wanted, would we be poorer because we had no JOBS? No.

If you were to become unemployed, but given $10 BILLION dollars, would you consider it a tragedy? Why not? Because in your life you understand something you fail to understand for the economy as a whole: Labor is not a measure of wealth. Wealth is a measure of wealth.

My G-d, forget Hazlitt, Bastiat argued away all these silly protectionist fallacies over a century ago, and yet we still hear them over and over?

Buzzkat pt 2
Sorry, sounds like I am suggesting you made those silly arguments. Obviously, you refuted the same silly arguments against which I am arguing.

Didn't mean to give a mistaken impression.

Last one
"cpiatl" in my first post should obviously read "capital".

Gabby
High food prices are hardly from a lack of farm labor. rather they are caused by:

1. Gov't subsisdies given to not produce
2. Gov't purchase of "excess" quantities to support prices
3. Tarrifs keeping cheaper imports off the market

Sorry, there is more than enough farm labor, as all thsoe warehouses of gov't grain and gov't cheese prove. We produce mroe than we need, and we still manage to export a lot.

But we also keep things such as cheap sugar off the market in order for politicians to buy votes from farm districts.

The extra $10/week (just an estimate)you spend on food amounts to little for you, but multiply it by 50 Million and it is a big bribe for the polticians to give to farmers to insure their support.

andrews
"The extra $10/week (just an estimate)you spend on food amounts to little for you, but multiply it by 50 Million and it is a big bribe for the polticians to give to farmers to insure their support"

I don't think the politicians really care about the farmer since farmers only represent maybe 1 percent of the population, more than likely it is the large refining and supply chains of the food industry

manufacturing jobs
a lot do go overseas to escape unions,regulations,and higher taxation, however a lot of the manufacturing jobs have been erased due to automation.

Just want to work?
An illegal alien marching in Detroit just said this on Fox News: “We are not criminals. We just want to work.”

Here is the definition of “criminal” as written in Webster’s Dictionary: Somebody acting illegally.

Maybe the Spanish dictionary says differently, but as long as you are in this country, you are a criminal. As for “just want to work,” that is criminal in itself. You are stealing jobs from LEGAL American citizens.

Gabby
My apologies. I reread your post after I responded and thought that perhaps you had made a typo. But I had already posted and wasn't entirely sure. (Doesn't matter since you can't edit posts, anyway.)

So, sorry for criticizing you for something you don't actually believe. Then again, sure someone else does, so maybe I did some good anyway.

ch47 jockey
Farmers may be a small voting block, but thanks to the automatic 3 electoral votes for each state, the huge number of midwestern farming states do add up to a lot of votes.

Also, farm-related industries are involved as well. packing, processing, etc are also helped by elevated food prices. ADM is hardly made up entirely of farmers, but they make a fortune off elevated food prices.

Gabby and all scared of competetion
Sorry, but world-wide competition is beneficial, not harmful. And THAT has been known for even longer than the harm of job-related protectionism. (Read Pareto, for example).

First, the US still has a very educated work force, so our wages would be higher even with completely open competition. Low wages seem attractive, but only relative to skills required. For completely unskille dlabor you go where the wages are lowest. For anything more, you need educated workers. try getting your slave labor, or children, or Somali tribesmen to do x-ray weld checking. Go ahead, I think I will take the American worker on that one.

Second, you are looking as employees only. If your wages drop 10% because of competetion, you forget, so do prices. So you earn less and spend less.

Yes, some will suffer, some will benefit. That is the nature of capitalism

If you want 100% safety and insurance of a wage and job, you have to go socialist.

If you want competition, you run a risk. And who cares if you lose your job to Arkansas or Japan, you lost your job.

And don't bring up patriotism. Is Japan weak because they grow little beef and grain? Was England crippled by their lack of wood? No. All nations have weaknesses and strengths. World wide competition or not, some nations will have more and less of some industries and goods. That is the nature of reality.

Boycott Home Depot
BTW everyone, don't shop at Home Depot anymore. Their stores are the preferred destination for illegals to congregate. Unscrupulous employers come by every morning and truck off with loads of cheap, untaxed labor. It is well publicized and Home Depot is proud of it. These were once well-paying jobs that we Americans can't get anymore because we refuse to work for sub-minimum wage.

Jockey
Also, you forget, each state has 2 senators. So Montana farmers have as much representation in the senate as all of CA and NY. That is why farm subsidies are good business. Give a little to the farmers and your party gets a whole lot of senate votes. (Think of how many states have a majority of ag businesses and multiply by 2. That is the senate block you buy with some relatively cheap farm subsidies.)

Gabby
Actually, you make one other mistake. You say we didn't lose jopbs overseas in agriculture overseas.

Actually with refrigeration, canning and transport, we did. I buy a lot of produce from overseas, even in things we could grow in the US. I bet you do too. And no one knows where their canned produce originated.

You may not see farm jobs going overseas, and it is less visible. But that happened too.

And the world did not end. And the US actually became richer and happier.

I tend too agree
once you include all of the various supply chains both to and from farms. I think you are spot on with you observations as well especially the last post to Gabby.

andrews
"If you want 100% safety and insurance of a wage and job, you have to go socialist."

No, we don't want to go socialist. That's the liberals' dream. We just want to control immigration like every other country in the world. Liberals always want the US to have an open-door policy when it comes to immigration, but never do they chastise our competitors for their strict immigration quotas. Yes, having quotas means less available labor and higher wages. And, higher wages means higher prices for goods. If the cost of the goods gets to the point where we cannot compete with foreign imported goods, then employees will settle for lower wages. That is the free market at work, not socialism as you suggested.

Another prime example of the anti-America liberals is the Kyoto Treaty. Bush refused to sign it because it excempts some of the worst polluters in the world, namely China and India. The treaty would have dire economic consequences for the US while giving the competition the upper hand. And yet,liberals crucified the US for not signing on. One wonders whose side they are on?

Andrews, you also said "You are looking as employees only." Yeah, how selfish of me?!

andrews
Just to let you know where I am coming from. I make six figures, but it was not always that way. I was fortunate to be able to work my way through college with a minimum wage job on the side. Today, our children cannot get these jobs anymore because illegal aliens have taken them all. And, if you think it is bad now, just wait until Bush signs the amnesty bill. All hell is going break loose at the border!

Hound dog
I spent several years after college as a part time abrtender, so I can probably top you on the poverty competition. I too am now doing much better financially.

My point was that income alone is not the only relevant figure.

For example following the civil war there was a period of deflation. Both salaries and prices fell for some time. Why? The value of gold rose.

By the employee-only logic, the fall in salaries was a tragedy. But, in reality, prices fell faster and it was a period of prosperity.

And, as far as illegal aliens are concerned, I am not in opposition to you. With our nation the way it is, I would oppose any amnesty or loosening of immigration laws. In fact, even if we eliminated all of our welfare laws (one of the reasons I strongly oppose loose immigration) I would still oppose immigration reforms now, as we are at war and need to monitor immigration closely.

Ideally, if we had no welfare system and the world were peaceful enough, I woud like to restrict immigration to health reasons. (I would also require all gov't business be conducted in English only, but that is just common sense. We need one common language for government matters.)

But the world will never be that peaceful and we will be along time getting rid of the blight of welfare, so, for the time being, it is sound policy to try to prevent illegal immigration and to try to remove those illegal immigrants currently here.

One more thing
Forgot to say, the deflation following the civil war was a windfall for those on pensions and those relying on bonds or other savings. As wages and prices fell, the premiums paid on bonds could purchase more and more, as could fixed annuities such as pensions.

True, workers brought home "less", but that "less" could buy more. And, for those traditionally hurt by inflation (retirees and others on fixed incomes) the deflation was a g-dsend.

Just making the point that looking at everything in terms of wages and jobs alone can overlook other benefits which may even overcome the negatives we see when looking at things only from the perspective of employee.

My point is we are all both employee and employer . Why? Because when we buy something we are in effect employing those who made it. Prices are simply the salaries paid to thsoe who made it, and procured the raw materials from which it is made. So,when you see things only as employee you only get part of the picture. Sometimes lower employment costs make life better even for those who 'lose out" on wages.

A bit disjointed
Sorry for the many broken posts. I am writing quickly as I work and have little time to go back and edit as I would were I writing more formally.

I am also trying to recall things on the fly and it sometimes results in somewhat disjointed writing.

Sorry about that.

Also sorry for all the typos. Should probably proofread more, but work keeps calling for my attention.

andrews
We are both working and sneaking in a post here and there. Can get fired if boss comes into my office and sees what I am doing on company time.

We agree on one thing, the flow of illegal immigrants into this country is out of control and our children are paying a huge price. Besides the jobs, the prisons are full of illegals, with some facilities housing 80% illegals. One cannot denied resources are finite. We are stretched to the gill in the schools, hospitals, welfare rolls and all social services. Mayors of cities being overrun by illegal aliens are taking matters into their own hands because they cannot afford to wait any longer for the feds to do their job.

As you pointed out, health is a major issue. Tuberculosis is making a comeback in California and Texas. All immigrants that I know had to go through a comprehensive medical screening as part of the application process. We have no idea what diseases these illegals are carrying. Well, I stand corrected. We do know many of them are carrying TB.

Trade and Jobs
Ms. Schlafly is on the right track on trade.

Here are some additional thoughts. The U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes it a crime for American companies operating abroad to bribe an official of a foreign government. A similar law should be passed which would require American companies and their contractors to observe elementary employee rights, employee safety and health conditions, and environmental pollution controls. It's not unreasonable to expect American companies operating abroad to export basic environmental, health and safety and human rights policies and practices, not just the technology from their U.S. operations.

Further, the U.S. should not be so reluctant to make environmental and employee rights a part of free trade negotiations. Both parties have been reluctant to do this. We don't hesitate to attach intellectual property terms to trade agreements but we are only half-hearted in pursuing environmental and employee rights concerns.

Last year the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service imposed an embargo on caviar from certain parts of the Caspian sea because the depletion of the sturgeon population. If we can protect sturgeon by embargoing caviar I can see no reason why similar measures could not be used to protect workers abroad and in the U.S.

Finally, if we accept that the country as a whole benefits through comparative advantage from free trade, we need to do more to ameliorate the hardship imposed on the segments of the workforce who are displaced when U.S. goods are replaced by imports from China and other low wage areas. I'm not sure what the best approach is. One such proposal is to establish a form of wage insurance. It's clear that large numbers of employees are losing their jobs, pension, and health care as a result of free trade. I'm not sure what the best approach is. Wage insurance is one approach being floated by some. Improved pension funding regulations are needed as well as improvements in health care. Minimally funded retraining and extended unemployment compensation are insufficient compensation for the employees who are being crucified on the cross of free trade.

Hound Dog
Then I will stick with immigration and say I agree with you entirely.

When my mother in law came from Italy she had to have a sponsor, pass a health screening, learn english and show proof of support. That was nothing unusual at the time. And was not unusual until very recent times.

It surprises me how easy it has become to get into the US and how hard it si to deport anyone. My father has just recently retired from his second career in law enforcement (railroad cop after a career as a county cop) and his stories of the policies regaridng immigrants are frightening. Basically an illegal has to kill someone before the INS cares. (Unless there is publicity, then they jump right on it so they don't get bad media coverage.)


W2
Your final sentence is a clear "tribute" to W.J. Bryant. I would just point out that Bryant didn't fare too well in his political aspirations, despite his rhetorical skills.

May want to lift your quotes from winners next time.

(I also disagree with your solution. Rather than impose US regulations on foreigners, why not free our businesses of the burden? Foreigners will never agree, but we can always repeal our own regulations. And the outcome is the same, the playing field is level again. So, why not get rid of laws, instead of enacting more?)

Sam
Thanks.

Sam is correct
Sam is right if for no other reason than hundreds of people like Peter Shiff are directing their clients out of the U.S. for investments. Thus, we have a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more that bail, the more that need to bail.

Without reform of tax and entitlement policies we will have to hit bottom before we can control spending or the decline of the dollar.

Regarding all the comments on trade, "fair, free, and balanced, etc."

Free trade isn't always fair and fair trade isn't always free. A nation with "good trade policy," retains control and doesn't turn over the dispute process to members of the WTO.

We can "negotiate" with some and "trade freely" with others but, always, the sovereignty of the U.S. should be preserved.

We need world competition, we will lose some jobs and gain others if we have good policies for tax, regulation and labor (esp. immigration policy that doesn't flood the labor pool with illegal workers). However, we block even what we can do. We block our own oil reserves, are losing high tech jobs to nations that have raised their education standards, irrationally fund our social programs with "Ponzi scheme" tax policy, and "intervene" around the world to prop up our currency because it is based in value only on "demand."

Virtually every economist, the Federal Reserve, Government departments, are warning us we are headed for crash and yet, we don't reform a single thing. Buckle up. You are headed for a collision with reality.

Gabby & Bkat
manufacturing jobs peaked in 1946 or 1947. look it up. was in the high 30% range.

phyllis IS dead on - having been in corporate taxes for 24 years, i've seen scores of companies leave this country because of the pompous perps of the potomac. it does not just emanate from taxation either. product liability (ie, the DNCs personal ATM) is tied with taxes as the number one reason to flee.

what is wrong with 30 cents an hour? sure in this country it's chump change. but many parts of asia and southwest asia, it provides you with a standard of living unparalled in the area. wages are relative to where you live. an ironworker earning $50 an hour in philadelphia will earn maybe $35 and hour in denver.

Andrews: " W.J. Bryant"
I believe you meant William Jennings Bryan, not Bryant, as the source for the cross of gold metaphor. If you are going to pick nits, try to get it right!

Aside from your suggestion, did you disagree with the substance of my comment? Or do you just get your jollies from picking nits?

Gabby
What some point to is the number of jobs in a sector, like manufacturing.

What they don't do is correlate it to population growth. If job growth matches population or if out put matches the growth of GDP you have a zero percent change even though the number rises. If it doesn't match growth, it can increase in numbers but still be a negative percentage.

For example, Manufacturing as a percent of GDP was 30.4% in the 50's but now is down around 15% and hit a low of about 14% a few years ago. Each decade it declined even though the "output" rose. Now, there is a ringer in that though. Government spending is also a part of GDP and if it is rising faster than manufacturing, it can become a higher percentage and increase GDP faster than private sector spending.

The formula for GDP is:
GDP = C + G + I + NX

where:

"C" is equal to all private consumption, or consumer spending, in a nation's economy
"G" is the sum of government spending
"I" is the sum of all the country's businesses spending on capital
"NX" is the nation's total net exports, calculated as total exports minus total imports. (NX = Exports - Imports)
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.asp
===========================

For those who don't see a problem with including government spending in the formula when you have an irresponsible government, think of that formula pushed to the extreme where government spending is 100% of GDP. Who pays the bill?

The problem is that the closer you get to just 50% the worse it gets in distorting reality about how productive your nation is vs. how dependent it is on government spending.

Quote:
Slightly over half of all Americans – 52.6 percent – now receive significant income from government programs, according to an analysis by Gary Shilling, an economist in Springfield, N.J. That's up from 49.4 percent in 2000 and far above the 28.3 percent of Americans in 1950.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0416/p01s04-usec.html?page=1
====================================

No wonder so many economists and now, government agencies are saying the course we are on is "unsustainable" and we are heading for 100% debt to GDP as Bernanke testified to in Congress.

However, we can't stop this trend as long as voters don't know it is so deadly and are keeping the current two party system in power. Either reform them or replace them but don't keep them in power, neither of them.

Growing Debt
Me too!

After reading all the comments.....
I can see how we as a nation have arrived where we are today.

Only a couple people have suggested or supported the simplification of the tax code. Everyone else is so focused on arguing about minutia that they appear to have lost track of the subject.

Smaller and simplified government, laws, and regulations is what this country needs.

First;

Eliminating personal and cooperate taxes and instituting a consumption tax, like the “FairTax”, that everyone pays will make this country the largest tax haven in the world. Companies will come to the US to exist in a cooperate tax free environment. With then they will bring money into the economy and jobs.

Second;

Institute tariffs on overseas goods coming into the US from countries who allow or engage in slave and child labor so that those products do not get the benefit of the lower labor costs on US soil.

Third;

Reduce or eliminate the overly punitive environmental regulations which drive up costs. The idea of public health and safety behind environmental regulation is good, but to to extremism it has become a way to punish success and limit growth.

Christopher Parisho writes:
Christopher Parisho writes:

Second;

Institute tariffs on overseas goods coming into the US from countries who allow or engage in slave and child labor so that those products do not get the benefit of the lower labor costs on US soil.
====================================

We have a couple of problems if we do this.

We are a debtor nation and depend on those nations to purchase our debt. Already we have heard retaliation threats if we do that. Also, when we joined the WTO and surrendered some of our sovereignty, we agreed to let a international body rule on what we could and couldn't do in many ways.

However, think about this. Chinese workers at GM make about $2 an hour and with their 4 to 5 times buying power, homes given to them that they can now sell, remodel, borrow money on, etc. and most with no car, no car insurance, no gasoline purchase, etc. they are making more than twice what our min. wage workers make and are saving as much as 40% of their pay. True, that some of that savings is going in the personal social security accounts and health savings accounts, but their middle-class is growing about 50 million a year while ours shrinks.

Also, the American consumer will not elect congressmen who end their "everyday low prices." The American consumer now depends on imports and doesn't want that supply to end.

Tax reform and entitlement reform will help. Also, getting out of the WTO, if possible, would help. We are moving to a North American Community too, so there will be even more trade problems that affect manufacturing.

However, the world is actually, rapidly catching up to us in buying power (true measure of well-being, not the wage itself) and will soon pass us in many ex-socialist nations that reformed.

Many refer to the number of poor in India and China but, just a few years ago, they had about zero for middle class. Now they have over 500 middle-class and that is 200 million more than our entire population. Because China is now the largest consumer nation in the world, except for cars and oil, business, other governments, and our own consumers, are turning to China instead of the U.S.

We are in rapid decline in many ways. The currency is falling, debt rising, and more and more nations turning to Asia, the next hot economic area in the world.

Centuries ago, "prosperity" started in the Middle East, I read, then declined there as it moved to the Mediterranean and Europe and then to the North American continent. Now it is declining here and moving once again, further east. In a century or so, it will decline there and move again.

The reason isn't government as much as the citizens of the "empire" in decline. They refuse to believe they are in decline and thus, don't do the reforms that are needed nor elect those that will. You can't stop what is happening here, until the voters wake up and that isn't likely to happen unless what we are doing causes a depression. (Some say we get one of those about every 70 years and are due for one).

But, you as an individual can prepare for it, and millions will even become very wealthy because of the changing trends in the world. Learn all you can about why we are in decline, what will happen to buying power with the dollar, how to protect you savings, etc. Have skills (like healthcare) that will still be in demand in a depression. Read all you can on what is coming.

Free trade
As Patrick Buchanan once said, concerning our trade practices with other countries, the U.S. is the "fat" kid on the playground, who is routinely punched, kicked and intimidated by the other kids.

We have allowed ourselves to become the world's punching bag when it comes to trade practices. Schlafly is right in calling for "a new strategy" concerning ourworld trade policy. But in order to have this we need a leader who actually understands the problem and has a remedy for it. That leader is Ron Paul, who, by the way, is running for President (something you wouldn't be aware of if your only news source was the mainstream media).
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