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Wednesday, July 16, 2008
Phil Harris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Immoral Indignation And Log-Infested Eyes
by Phil Harris
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Two groups will find this discussion to be unpalatable, despite the fact that they are otherwise diametrically opposed to each other. Perhaps, if this sliver of insight gets under some of the hard scabs that have encrusted our social skin, some measure of healing is possible. Of course, my own bias leads me to believe this is possible for one side, and unlikely for the other.

My bias is the result of believing several things to be true, all of which used to be the accepted social consensus. Examples of such are that homosexuality, sexual promiscuity and/or perversions, and abortion are not good things and consequentially lead to the downfall of individuals and the community. I segregate these from all other social “sins”, because these are interrelated in cause and consequence.

Homosexual activism has been stunningly successful through the years at perverting the social conscience. Medical scientists, being social animals first and foremost, bring this altered view to work with them. Sprinkle in a few beloved homosexual colleagues, and the drive to justify homosexuality is too much to resist, pure science be damned.

I give you the obvious problems of bio mechanics as an example of this phenomenon; although, the argument is stuffed quietly and immediately into lab coat pockets, and dismissed out of hand. Sexual intercourse, the required activity for the propagation of our species, has a known set of physiological components. The digestive tract represents another distinctly identifiable set of components. The two systems and processes, aside from benefiting the creatures to which they belong, are completely unrelated.

At least in terms of male homosexuality, if we recognize that the biology of the human body makes no allowance for the practice of sodomy, then what we are left with is the conscious mind of man. I would be so bold as to suggest, that if homosexuality were indeed a naturally occurring trait in our genetic code, we should see such represented in the construction of our bodies, considering that homosexual activities have occurred throughout the history of man.

Moving beyond the sexual component of sexuality, and into the realm of relationships between people, there are some observations to make. This too has been twisted and perverted by homosexual activism, and is perhaps the most damaging and damning for society. Close, loving relationships can and do occur between all combinations of people, and sometimes these relationships can take the place of a commitment between a man and a woman.

People used to call this friendship, and sometimes we elevate that designation with another person as “best” friendships. There is nothing absurd or wrong with the idea that these relationships can supplant marriage in the course of the lives of two people. Until the relationship is bastardized by adding a sexual component, the devotion and caring and even life-long partnering between two people is fine.

I have often heard stories about children who exhibit characteristics that lead people to believe these are little homosexuals in the making. Certainly, some have effeminate traits, but such thoughts would not have come to mind twenty years ago. Today, if a youngster exhibits a certain mannerism, or preference in play, he runs the risk of having his environment artificially shaped for him.

This overt preconception by adults may lead these children by the nose down a road they might not have otherwise taken. It is possible that such children need extra attention in shaping their masculine identities, rather than some twisted compassionate effort to help them become happy homosexuals. I cannot think of a worse case of child abuse, than to participate in such a thing.

We have a good friend who often brings her pet boxer to visit. The dog is delightfully child-like, full of energy, and utterly infatuated with my leg. He cannot control himself, and somehow culminates his enthusiasm for play and affection with a desire to propagate the dog-leg species.

I don’t hate him for his urges, and although I shudder in disgust, I recognize that he is an animal and has no concept of biology or morality. Unlike the mind of man, the mind of dog has no benefit of the knowledge of good and evil. He also has no concept of the nuclear family, nor the role of mother and father in “teaching” children about God, conscience, and caring for the community.

This in humans is sexual promiscuity and perversion. Unlike the dog, people know instinctively that sexual fantasies and acting them out with inanimate objects, animals, children, and members of the same gender is not acceptable and that these things fly in the face of the laws of nature. Such behavior grates on the intellect like fingernails on a chalkboard, just as we do not condone eating each other given the opportunity to do so.

We are infected now as with a virus. The fabric of humanity has been tattered by the systematic snipping away at moral constraints. Sex on demand, outside of the concept of family, outside of the concept of procreation, outside of the concept of marriage and life-long commitment has wrought consequences of disease, fatherless children, and the horrors of abortion.

Now, all that being said, there is the issue of judgment and condemnation by those who hold such behaviors to be sinful. In the eyes of God, there really is just one expectation on which we are judged, and that is to be obedient to God. Therefore, my sin is no less a violation of that expectation. It is not comfortable to say and it may be impossible for some to admit, but the sexually perverted have no more guilt in the eyes of God than do you or I.

Jesus was quite clear in this regard: (Matthew 7:1-5) - "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.”

It is important to note here, that Jesus was warning us not to stand in judgment and condemn others for their sins. He was not condoning or justifying the speck or the log in the eyes of either party.

We must fight this ongoing effort to justify immoral behavior sexual or otherwise, stand against the numbing of our social conscience, resist efforts to wrap sexual perversions in a cloak of marriage. It is critical that we prevent corrupted virtues from being taught to our children in schools and speak out when such is celebrated in popular culture.

But it is also critical that we separate our hatred for these things from the people who are afflicted by them; sort of the old adage, hate the sin but love the sinner if you will. Unless we are clear about this and make certain that we do not stand in judgment of individuals, our efforts to shape politics, policies, and social attitudes will be fruitless.

It is our role to participate in shaping our communities. The role of judging sin belongs to God alone. Thank God that he sent Jesus to stand in our behalf.

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About The Author

Phil Harris is a software engineer, author of Cry for the Shadows and blogs at Citizen Phil.

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Let's start hearing the truth about
We can judge this activity to be sinful because God told us in the Holy Scriptures that it is sinful. But I agree we cannot condemn the actor of this sin to hell. Hell is reserved for those that reject the gift of salvation from Jesus the Saving Christ. We are commanded to love. Love includes telling the Truth about what is right and what is wrong according to the Holy Scriptures.

I was listening to a man on the radio that said he practiced homosexuality for 30 years before he was saved from it by reading God's Word.
He became a homosexual at the age of 6.
This involved a sexual encounter.
I'm not talking about small children showing other children what they have.
It isn't okay or normal for children at 6 to have sexual encounters.
Callers that were themselves homosexuals said they were exposed to pornography, and grown up relatives and friends having sex with them before they knew the difference between right and wrong.
This sounds like a cause of homosexuality to me.
I do not equate effeminate men with homosexuality. I've known quite a few feminine men that are not.
Another thing my father could sing and dance and draw and cry. He was a real man. None of these things I listed make a man feminine. They are what make a man human.

odd
It is not clear whether Harris is ignorant of the components used in sex and in the digestive tract, but they actually do overlap in men at least. Judging from his picture he appears to be male, so this is a rather odd oversight.

The everything has a single use theory of the natural is a pretty silly one anyway. But here it doesn't even hold.

Agree 100%
Gays, lesbians, transgenders, etc., are very organized and totally committed to convincing the rest of us that their alternate lifestyles are NORMAL. They are doing everything possible to change our laws and re-educate society from public grade schools to adults of this. As a Bible based Christian I recognize sin for what it is, and accept the fact that I am also a sinner. I must live my life in accordance with my beliefs while not being the one responsible for judging others!
That being said, I also need to stand up and be heard as these people try to force our states and country to change our fundamental laws to accomodate them.

Wrong Lon
The digestive tract does not include the "component" to which you are referring. Unless your plumbing is a heck of a lot different than mine.


Isn't it ironic?
almost without question, it is the indignant judgemental people who are obsessed with the mechanics and specifics of homosexual sex acts. It's very curious how they take the concept of legalizing a contract between 2 committed adults (regardless of their sexes) and automatically start preaching how "tab A doesn't go in slot B!!!!" Puritanical guilt, I suppose... Especially considering close to 30% of the activity on "gay" message boards is by people who profess to being "Married but curious."

The issue of gay "marriage" is about access to equal treatment under US law. Personally, I don't care if it's called "marriage," a "civil union," or anything else. But if one chooses to spend his life with someone, they should have the right to designate this person as an heir to their assets, with a reasonable assurance that it won't be contested by blood relatives who wouldn't condescend to SPEAK to their gay father/brother/cousin/etc. when he was alive.

So let's get over the sex issue, shall we?

Great!
I think it's great news that you desperate Neo-Cons are trying to resurrect the gay stigma again. It shows how well Obama is doing.

Even McCain can't keep his story "straight" on gay adoption for more than a few hours, and now the gay bashers in California are falling apart, too.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202423011880&rss=new swire

The Great Irony
Is that at the same time we are seeing a proliferation of columns condeming gays based on Biblical teachings, nary a word is said about the fact that the GOP nomimee is in the eyes of Jesus a sinner and adulterer.

Interestingly, while Jesus unequivicol on the subject of divorce and remarriage, he had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality.

Jesus said nothing about cannibalism
either, so I suppose it is okay then, to Have "Tom & Patty" For Lunch. After all, he did not specifically condemn the practice.

Typical liberal justification system... if somebody is doing something wrong, then I get to do wrong an equal number of times.


judgment and teaching aren't the same
I am a Christian. As a Christian, and as a human being, I deplore homosexuality, but as a Christian and as a human being, I don't judge or condemn or refuse friendship to homosexuals. I actually don't pay enough attention to recognize who is who. Other people usually have to tell me.
That being said, I think I can show in my own life that it isn't necessary to judge or analyze some other adult's choices.
However, when an adult with an abnormal sexual choice tries to lead a child to the same choice, I completely oppose and reject his/her right to do so. Nobody has the right to point a child in the wrong direction. Adults make their own choices and they live with the consequences, good or bad. Children are completely at the mercy of adults to lead them to a healthy, happy and spiritually satisfying adult life. The fact that I am friends with homosexuals and transgenders does not mean that I think their choices are right; it just means that their choices are not my business. I feel very differently about anyone who influences any child. The upbringing of children is a sacred trust, and we are obligated to tell them the truth. The truth is that human beings are created by God, and no matter what gender their friends are, the only definition of marriage is one man and one woman. That is the only combination which can procreate and that means it is the plan for the continuation of humans. That is it. That's all there is. Period.

Last time I checked....
Liberals weren't the ones brandishing the Bible as *the* source of legal reference for the United States of America. It's pretty clear that bryce was calling out the "pick and choose" mentality that seems to be prevalent among the religious-right fanatics.

That said, I do give you a nod of approval that you went in the direction of cannibalism, in lieu of beastiality or pedophilia (where most fundie minds seem to inevitably go).

Yellowguy
I was using the term "digestive tract" to include the disposal parts. But if Harris was not using the term that way then he is even more confused than I thought.

It's ok that you're wrong.
Keep being loudly incorrect. That really is ok.

Until you meet and truly love a gay neighbor, how could you know that being gay is perfectly natural and normal and happens all the time?

Once you have met and known them, you will be changed forever. On that day you will realize that gender should be restricted no more than race or sex or hair color. Any ancient text that says different is *WRONG*.

In time, the fear and hatred has subsided to the point that this oppressed population can live in certain parts of the country. Given more time, you will perhaps have members of your family and community come forward with their brave story.

This alone will melt the hard hearts.

Sex is not a sin. I know that's really really REALLY hard to deal with because it goes against the earliest bias you were brainwashed with. But again, that's ok.

The world is slowly becoming a more compassionate and open place. You will open up, too, I just know it.

To Qat:
Though I don't necessarily agree with your entire post, let me take this moment to say that as a whole, your comments are a breath of fresh air in comparison to the fire and brimstone that usually rains down from so-called Christians.

With regards to the "meat" of your post, I'm assuming that you're responding to the poster who brought up the molestation of a child causing said child's homosexuality. You'll get no argument from me that such crimes against children are an absolute abomination. I support harsh punishment for crimes against children.

You also say that no adult has the right to point a child in the wrong direction. Again, I agree with you, but I am concerned that your thought process here goes back to the idea of "recruitment" into the gay lifestyle, which is for the greatest part an urban legend (and if I am putting words in your mouth, I apologize).

I personally am gay, but I do have a son from a prior marriage. If I thought for one minute that I could choose his sexuality, you can bet your life that I would want him to be straight- I love him more than life, and my greatest wish for him is that he have a happy and conflict-free life. But I have realized that I can't make that decision for him, and consequently, the only thing I can do is assure him that I will love him NO MATTER WHAT.

Lon is Absolutely Correct.
In claiming that human reproductive systems and other human systems are mutually exlusive, Harris clearly has an incomplete understanding of the biology at hand, so to speak. He also fails to grasp the nature of glandular functions.

He's OK with the Bible stuff, but he should leave the biology to someone with some grasp of the facts.

And He Doesn't Understand Dogs Either
Dogs have a very highly developed sense of family. We call it a pack, but it is really a family unit.

Lon....
I guess by Mr. Harris' standards, a BJ isn't sex, then (since it involves both the digestive tract and the genitourinary tract). But I would be willing to bet that argument as made by Bill Clinton didn't fly with him at the time. Or, maybe it's only sex when it's a woman in the active role? I dunno- these fundies change their stories and rules so often, I can't keep up with it! :-)

Keep it up boys...
You are putting on a great parade for all to see. We don't really need articles, when the public gets to see your thoughts first hand.

And you wonder why people think what they do?

.

Sorry, paranoid
"Until you meet and truly love a gay neighbor, how could you know that being gay is perfectly natural and normal and happens all the time?"
Yes, it does happen--though hot "all the time" in about ten percent of the population.
However, it is most decidedly NOT either natural or normal.
If it were, the vast majority would be homosexual rather than heterosexual. Come to think of it, that couldn't ever be true anyway, as if that could be so, there would be no continuance of the human race.

Self-gratifying perverts
There sure are a lot of people who put their own lust and greed ahead of Reason, Morality, or Ethics. Heck, I've done that myself more times than I can count. It doesn't make it any less wrong. This twisted preaching of "if it feels good, do it," and "if it makes someone feel bad, you're a monster" that people trot out in place of ethical reasoning is just depressing.

My best friend in of my whole life is gay. He's a wonderful human being and I love him as a brother. That doesn't require that I believe what goes on in his bedroom is right. Most of my friends of unrepentant hetero-sexual fornicators too. I don't beat them over the head with it - but neither do I accept attempting to change the laws or tear down religions just so they can feel better about the choices they make in life.

My friends are sinners, just like me, and I certainly love them. I love them too much to discard reason, destroy religion, and mangle the Constitution just to gain their approval.

Seth,
There's a thing called a will.... Nobody is stopping gays from being together. We protest that the gay agenda is being advocated in our schools to our kids and being touted as normal by society at large. Let's face it, that is the issue with most gays - they don't want to hear that is is sinful or unnatural.

mlund is right
I see a lot of hurt feelings by the gay side, but few seem to think the Christian one is worthy of consideration.

They("fundamentalist right wingers") are just hateful, judgmental bigots because the actually BELIEVE their holy book.

They do not seem to realize (or maybe they do and don't care), that their act is sacrilege to the Christian faith.

We do not want to control you, judge you, belittle you in any way. We just will not be bullied into renouncing our faith by acknowledging your act as anything but sinful.

I would say the same thing to an adulterer or a thief, so don't feel like I'm picking on you.

I do not accept my sin as being OK, nor will I accept yours.

Living Free
If you can not be with whomever you want, not really living in a free country.

Condoning sin in those you love ...
is like opening the door to Hell. I have a couple of friends who are lesbians. I do not condone their sinful choice to have immoral sex. I hope that they would not condone any of my sins, though they are not Christians, so may not realize the damage sin does in one's emotional, physical and spiritual life. If you love someone, you don't open the door to Hell and give them a good shove down the stairs. You tell them where they're headed and you offer to show them a better way. That's not hatred. It's the highest expression of love that I know. Jim, the guy who did that for me, will be my eternal hero, second only to Jesus my Savior. (And, no, Jim and I are not married to each other).

Chris,
Really? There's such a thing as a will? And they're never contested? (See- I can be snarky, too).

As for the "gay agenda"- I hate to burst your bubble, but your pastors and fundie politicians have pulled the wool over your eyes. It doesn't exist. Nobody is out there recruiting your children and all of that.

Cafeteria Christians abound
How do Christians who support McCain justify the fact that according to Jesus he is a sinner and adulterer, and continues to be so as long as he and Cindy are shacking up in the eyes of God?

If homosexual marriage is to be denied because of biblical prohibitions then why is that Christians are not decrying the sinfull nature of the McCain relationship?

Breath of Fresh Air
When Darwin wrote about survival of the fittest, he did not suggest every mutation or abnormality would necessarily be a successful one. Homosexuality, whether based on defective psychobiology, neuroendrocrinology, poor psychosexual teaching, overindulgence in appetites, or immoral behavior is a recessive attribute. After all, he wrote about survival of the fittest, not survival of the Ffffabulousss! I can be my grandmother's primary caregiver, love her, even contractuallly arrange to divide assets, if we both have any number of the hundreds of glandular abnormalities - according to homos, I should be able to marry her. And she should be able to get unlimited numbers of public funded abortions on demand without parental notification or without notifying any of her multiple, single sex, underage, non-human animal partners.

Chris: Get your facts straight
"There's a thing called a will.... Nobody is stopping gays from being together. "

Nobody is stopping gays from being together except the discrimination so adored by the fundies.

Gays can write wills too, but THEY ARE TREATED DIFFERENTLY. No matter what I will my partner, the government will take its slice in death taxes. You, on the other hand, can will your ENTIRE estate to your spouse.

Married people get special rights. Either remove them, or make them available to gay people.

A pack of lies from saltydog
"I see a lot of hurt feelings by the gay side, but few seem to think the Christian one is worthy of consideration. "

Why should xians get SPECIAL consideration?

"They("fundamentalist right wingers") are just hateful, judgmental bigots because the actually BELIEVE their holy book."

False. They are hateful judgmental bigots because they think others should live according to their fantasies.

"They do not seem to realize (or maybe they do and don't care), that their act is sacrilege to the Christian faith. "

For what possible reason should I care? Do you care about the injury you do hindus when you eat beef?

"We do not want to control you, judge you, belittle you in any way."

This is the biggest lie of them all. Why else is there an anti-gay article on this site daily?

"We just will not be bullied into renouncing our faith by acknowledging your act as anything but sinful."

The Great Elf thinks eating mushrooms is sinful. But I don't prevent you from eating them.

"I would say the same thing to an adulterer or a thief, so don't feel like I'm picking on you. "

Liar. Where are the articles here about adulterers? Or straight people who indulge in anal sex?

"I do not accept my sin as being OK, nor will I accept yours."

No one cares what you accept or don't accept. Unless and until you try to treat other citizens unequally based on your book of fiction.

Aurorawatcher thnks
"Condoning sin in those you love ... is like opening the door to Hell."

Eating mushrooms is a sure way to being sauteed in the Great Wok for eternity. The Great Elf has spoken, and I have warned you.

I shall not condone the eating of mushrooms.

Even animals know better...
Human beings are supposed to be of higher intelligence than animals, BUT NOT AMERICANS IN THE YEAR 2008; they want us to con us into believing that homosexuality is normal, natural?

Sodomy is NOT natural, not for homo or heteros. Even animals do not purposely have anal sex. Even PIGS DO NOT.

Let's just review basic ANATOMY: the anus is for going to the bathroom, period!

As for religion, yes it is true that in the eyes of God, adultery is as evil as fornication (hetero sex between unmarried persons or between homosexuals). It is true that it is too bad that Christians don't speak against both as equally dispicable to God, because they ARE.

However, one difference is the homosexuals CELEBRATE their error and BRAG about it, so it's the celebration of it that is bothersome. It would be just as repulsive to have adulterous groups parading in the street glorifying adultery and demanding rights for adulterers.

If a person wants to eat by pushing their food up their nose and down into their throat, fine. After all the food does end up arriving in the stomach. DO IT. But don't insist that people who eat with their mouths accept that eating through your nose is NORMAL and NATURAL. And then to demand we accept eating through one's nose is correct, THIS is what grates against the nerves.

Yes, thank God for animals, they let us know when we've lowered the bar, passed beyond intelligence to the absurd.

As for abortion simply for an unwanted pregnancy, animals don't even do that. And by the way, with exception of RAPE, us women DO have a choice, the choice to keep our legs closed; we can control whether or not we get pregant. What we don't have a right to do is use abortion as birth control for a night of passion. And make no mistake about it, most abortions are simply that: birth control. And the majority of women who have abortions are not even MARRIED.

Oh MoniQue!!
Polyester isn't 'natural' and anal sex takes place more between straight couples than gay ones.

As for celebrating, the pope has just spoken to 150,000 people encouraging them in various fantasies, though he did not apologize for the rampant sexual misconduct in the church. Should we celebrate this?

Explain
For the record, I am neither a Christian NOR an apologist for homosexuals. However, I am a bit puzzled by the author's point.
At the same time that he repeats the Biblical admonition about not judging people BECAUSE of their sins, he himself appears to be doing just that. Is there some distinction here that I'm missing? If so, by all means, tell me what it is.
Do Christians believe that HETEROSEXUAL adultery or fornication is LESS of a sin than homosexuality? Do drug-dealing and drug-using meth addicts, who happen to be heterosexual, make better parents than a committed, loving and monogamous homosexual couple? Some years ago . . . I believe it was in Oregon . . . a 12 year-old boy wanted to "divorce" his biological parents and be adopted, because his parents were chronic drug-abusers. Strangely, it was a vocal group of Christians who opposed the "divorce", despite the fact that the boy's natural parents did not appear to be making any attempt to reform themselves.
What about married and/or monogamous heterosexual couples who ALSO willingly practice sodomy and oral sex? Are they in the same league of sin as homosexuals? How many of you Christians, if any, believe that homosexuality and pedophilia are ALWAYS synonymous?
Please, all you Christian folks . . . help me out here. As a quasi agnostic/mystic {Sorry, it's the best definition I can give.}, I'm struggling to grasp YOUR version of the theological implications of all these questions.
If my memory serves me correctly, the last time I read "Dante's Inferno" . . . many years ago . . . the sin of SLOTH was relegated to a more heinous category than mutual sexual lust and fornication.
Curious.

Jesus, marriage and judgement
In the passage quoted in the article, Jesus condemned only *hypocritical* judgement, not all judgement. Elsewhere, he *commanded* judgement, specifically:

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

It is also crass to say that He never said anything against homosex. He said "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and specifically, stated that marriage was for a man and a woman:

"But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate" (Mark 10:6-9, citing Genesis 1:27 and 2:24).

What Jesus said
No one seems to understand what Jesus was saying in Matt. 7:1-5. He said "First, take the log out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." He was speaking against hypocrisy, not "judging," i.e., weighing the actions of others against God's laws.

Of course, we don't get to be the final arbiters (judges) over others. God said, "Vengeance is mine. ... The LORD will vindicate His people." But we do get to be rightly intolerant of things so deserving. If we judge hypocritically, we will be hypocritically judged. Man's laws are modeled on God's laws. Every day, law breakers are judged in courts of law AND public opinion.

The King's English is slaughtered and the Bible misquoted for the sake of political correctness. We are judged according to the manner in which we judge, as it should be. Gay rights activists know the Church is filled with sinners and hypocrites with log-infested eyes. We might as well be handing over our own heads on a silver platter.

Where's Will?
Why hasn't HE come swishing in yet? Still Nancing about the bath house?

-Ray

Gettin' more than you, wrat
I'll bet

Salt and light…

The Sermon on the Mount is for those who are citizens of the Kingdom of God. The beatitudes describe the character and blessedness of these citizens. The last beatitude tells us of the attitude of the world toward them [Matthew 5:11-12]. Then Jesus gives us in the metaphors of salt and light the influence of the kingdom upon the world…

‘You are the salt of the earth…You are the light of the world’.

Salt retards decay and light illuminates the darkness.

It is not that citizens of the kingdom are not to judge, but they are to judge in the way that they would be judged; that is with mercy, knowing the mercy and forgiveness of God for their own sin.

There are reasons why God gave them up first to uncleanness and then to vile passions. You will find them in Romans 1.

We are given strong warning to flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. [1 Corinthians 6:18]

Now whether it is wrong to warn men of these things, you be the judge.

seth
If passing on assetts were the issue for homosexual marriage-or unions- a will would take care of the problem regardless of orientation.
Despite your post that is obviously not the homosexual agenda.
Straw men are always straw men

seth
err- speaking of being snarky- your "fundie" gratuitous throw away line is just a teaser eh?
Yes wills get contested - by all sorts of people - but as I'm sure you know -a proper will holds up avery time. Sorry your agenda is showing- as always

mod mark
here all the time I've scanned your posts on political matters I thought you were just a loon - after your bj remarks-it turns out you're just a slob.
Gee I never knew that you were the only one in the world that knew of such things, thanks for the education!

mellors
someone already posted it - they were right - keep on talking- the more you rant the more you prove the point about your agenda driven drive to normalize.
The more you attack - and parade- the more you lose.
Yep- keep it up, and thanks for the self anihilation

Re wills....
Heaven help me for bringing her up, but SURELY you remember the FOX News coverage of someone named Anna Nicole Smith? Here we have a STRAIGHT marriage where the will was contested, and Mr. Marshall's blood relatives achieved at least a partial victory.

Really- do you SERIOUSLY contend that a will is that airtight?

To be honest...
... the passionate and sordid death throes of this resistance to offer equal rights to homosexuals (who are just as much US citizens as anybody else) is fairly entertaining- certainly better than anything on television these days!

This will become yet another principle (aka- wedge or distraction issue) that the neo-cons abandon by the roadside soon enough...

Seth
You're delusional. You say there aren't homosexuals out there recruiting people into their "congregation" and you are wrong. I've counseled on the west coast and many states in between and people are being preyed upon and brought into the fold. Even if there weren't predators out there going after recruits, there is such a proliferation of the homosexual agenda in our culture at present, it's being forced into the forefront whether it's blatent or subliminal.

So much nonsense!
Seth, the homosexual issue IS about sex, so how are we supposed to "get over" it? You commented that most "fundie minds" "go to beastiality or pedophilia" rather than cannibalism when addressing what Jesus never spoke on, but the reason we go there is because they are also sexual issues. I realize it was Bryce who brought up the issue, but both of you need the proper response. Jesus didn't address rape or incest either IN THE N.T. but all those sexual issues were addressed in the O.T., and since Jesus is God, He did in fact address homosexuality as being an abomination. If you are going to bring Jesus into the equation, then you have to accept the whole package of Christian doctrine.

MellorSJ2 says Christians "are hateful, judgmental bigots because they think others should live according to their fantasies." By that argument, the same applies to the homosexuals because it is they who are using every means possible to FORCE the rest of us to give approval to their behavior.

Higene hollers "homophobia" but what I see from the gay population is "Christophobia". We are not afraid of homosexuals, we just don't want to be forced to accept their sexual behavior as normal. But you ARE afraid of Christ and his judgment!

Recruitment....
Doesn't that imply drawing someone into your fold by enticing them about how good it is on your side? Just what, exactly, are you saying that homosexuals are using as enticement for this? Is it the discrimination? The exclusion? The ridicule? Perhaps the threat of violence? Or are YOU so delusional that you think there's a such a vast conspiracy to PAY people to become gay?

Nay- the fact is that people, for whatever reasons, come to realizations that they are, indeed, gay DESPITE all of these things. I along with many others wrestled with it for numerous long and painful years, and even with the new set of problems it gives me, my life is immeasurably happier now that I'm not living a lie.

You can call me whatever names you find convenient, but the fact remains that this "homosexual agenda" you and your kind speak of is bunk. Yes, there are vocal and downright offensive gays out there that love to make a scene- they are the equivalent of Fred Phelps to your group. The vast majority, however, are just like the people you see every day.


Mr. Chatfield:
I'm not getting into the biblical argument again. Been there and done that SO many times now, it's worn a permanent trench in my brain. The bottom line is that you can spout bible verses at me until the moon turns red, but it doesn't change the fact that our government offers and/or allows several important benefits to you that I am not elgible for because I have chosen to build a life with someone of the same sex.

I am NOT trying to re-define marriage!!! Personally, I would RATHER same-sex unions be called something else. And for the record, neither do a believe that any church should be forced to perform said ceremonies. I grant you, however, that there are many homosexuals that disagree with me on this point.

What's "Normal?
I dunno... there are people who like all kinds of "non-standard," even harmful behavior. Because it exists and because some people like it doesn't make it "the norm."

I think this is what is problematic: we already know that a child who grows up in an abusive household is more likely to be an abuser him/herself. The child learns that abuse is "the norm," and even to crave it, because it is what he becomes used to.

So we worry that by defining anything and everything as normal, we will propagate behavior that isn't to the ultimate benefit of the society.

Of course, I'm making an assumption that heterosexual coupling for the purpose of child bearing and rearing is ultimately beneficial.

The problem with any society is it *has* to set limits in order to function. By definition, those limits will infringe on *somebody's* rights. How far do we extend our understand and compassion? As someone else pointed out, it could include cannibalism, or sadism, or self-starvation... we do get wired up when we find out about a person who has tortured animals, yet what if this person just likes to do it? Or gets a sexual thrill out of it? How can we judge another person's preferences?

The point is, we *have* to judge another person's preferences, and we do so because we collectively agree that everything on *this* side of the line is ok, and everything on *that* is not. Why is sex with a girl at 17.75 years old a crime, but when she's 18 it's ok? It has nothing to do with her as a person, and everything to do with setting a limit, somewhere, to protect those who need protection, and to define who and what we are as a society.

It's not an easy subject. And notice I didn't say anything about God, Jesus, Religion, or anything but simply human beings behaving in society with one another.

Seth
There is absolutely a homosexual agenda, and
it is so typical of the homosexual community to downplay “gay marriage” and “gay adoption”, because they do not want people realizing just what they are letting happen all around them. This is THE most important issue facing us today. Being forced to accept a destructive and immoral lifestyle and then forcing children to be put into homes with those who behave this way is truly an abomination.
I would like to know where my rights are. Why do I have to accept behavior I disapprove of? Aren’t I allowed to discriminate against behavior I find objectionable? Why are these misguided, brainwashed perverts even being taken seriously?

Nancy-
Thoughtful comments- Thanks for sharing. And while I'm at it- thanks to ALL who comment, regardless of whether I agree with you or not. Contrary to what you may thing, I am not of the opinion that homosexuals (or any minority group, for that matter) should be treated as sacred cows. Debate is a good thing.

My response to you is simply this: The issue at hand revolves around a legal contract between two consenting adults- no more, and no less. I know, I know- there are those who are claiming that they will not settle for less than redefining marriage, but I speak only for myself. It is patently ridiculous for a group of people to call upon OUR government to perpetuate discrimination based solely on their religious/social/moral/etc. beliefs. I defy anybody to show a real and tangible detrimental effect to their lives if it were made so I could enter into a contract with someone I have built a life with. It has happened in other countries, and the world keeps on spinning.

Lucretia-
"THE most important issue facing us today."????? ROFL!!! Are you SERIOUS?

You can believe in this agenda that the neo-cons have invented all you want- that is certainly your right. Paranoia is a terrible state to live in though.

As for your rights... You DO have the right to accept or reject homosexuality- Everybody does, in fact. I clearly accept it, and you clearly don't. The reasons for these decisions are immaterial; I live my life according to my views, and you yours. You're quite welcome to speak your mind about this issue, as am I.

Excellent Essay, Mr. Harris!

I could not agree with you more.

I have little argument with, nor hatred of those who choose the wrong course, as long as they keep it in their bedroom, and DO NOT TRY TO INFECT OTHERS WITH THEIR BELIEFS !

Rats
(and mice)


Seth
Good response to mine. I understand about the Biblical debate, but homosexuals will often use the Bible to support their position, even if it's just to attack it. If you don't believe the Bible as the word of God, then don't even mention it. I don't use the Bible against homosexuality unless it is brought into the argument by someone else or is twisted to support sexual sin by so-called "Christian" homosexuals.

As for having benefits I get as a married person, you can get virtually every one of them by making a legal contract: heirs in a will, hospital visitations, medical decisions, etc. So you can't get Social Security? So what - I will never be eligible for it either. And the gov't had no business Constitutionally instituting it - do away with it! As for adoption, I don't believe any child should be adopted into a gay family; the ideal is mother AND father, not two of each. Single parenting isn't ideal, but at least that's one biological parent who can inculcate understanding about the missing person.

Mr. Chatfield:
Thanks for your response. Total agreement re the bible. I have no hatred for Christianity, despite what the stereotype says. I just don't really think it has any bearing on the issue at hand.

As for getting the rights of visitation, succession, etc... It's just not as simple as that- I certainly wish it was. Yes, with some good planning you can make steps to that end, but these things are often challenged in various ways. Just a couple of weeks ago, 2 women were travelling when one of them collapsed and eventually died. The partner was initially denied access, and more importantly, they wouldn't accept her word as to the woman's medical history. I'm not aware if there was any chance of saving the woman's life even if they would have taken her history, but this is CLEARLY something that could be fixed easily enough by recognition of a contract between two consenting adults. It's NOT the end of the world issue that it has been represented as.

Adoption is another issue... In fact, I have a child from a misguided marriage attempt. His mother and I have amicably agreed that the child should not be told of my sexuality until such a time as he's capable of processing that information. THIS is why I get furious at the "gay agenda" accusations; I could certainly indoctrinate my child if I was stupid enough to think that I can choose his path for him. Instead, I let him know daily that I love him, and will ALWAYS love him- no matter WHAT he decides. That said, I do find it a little insulting to suggest that there aren't children who are lost in an abysmal foster care system who wouldn't benefit from the love and individual attention of people, be they straight, gay, single, coupled- whatever. Ideally a traditional male-female couple? Maybe. But would a child stuck in a group home as a ward of the government quibble over that distinction? Who's to say?

Glenn Chatfield writes:
"As for having benefits I get as a married person, you can get virtually every one of them by making a legal contract: heirs in a will, hospital visitations, medical decisions, etc. "

"Virtually" isn't good enough. Either gays are equal citizens (as they clearly are supposed to be according to the Fourteenth), or they are not.

And I repeat for the good of Phil, who is apparently hard of reading, inheritance taxes discriminate against gay couples.

Educate yourselves.....
...before you write your "opinion".

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/lgpstspec.html

Hating the Sin
My father put it into perspective for me years ago. Think of homosexuality like a mental illness. Don't be offended by the comparison. Think of it as a chemical imbalance, a behavioral disorder. There are plenty of perfectly good and kind, upstanding individuals who have disorders. You don't hate them because of their disorders- you try to help them to live with or overcome these challenges. If you consider homosexuality in the same light, your perspective changes. It clears the way for you to love the person, and still hate the sin. The person is not the problem. The societal distortion of the meaning of love, coupled with the misunderstanding of sex, is the problem.

We must face the consequences of the distortion of sexuality with the attitude of healing- not with disgust. We won't get anywhere by pouring lemon juice on open wounds- but we can definitely sit down and have a meaningful conversation if we serve lemonade.

Several things ...
First and foremost is WHY are we being forced to change the rules for a small percentage? When our nation was founded, it was established for the COMMON GOOD. 10 percent of the population doesn't constitute the common good ...

Next, in regards to "recruitment": Spouse abusers don't necessarily indoctrinate people to their beliefs through a network marketing style script, but instead by EXAMPLING what they believe and reinforcing it until one loses a sense of what's right or just; through a complex system of psychological warfare, if you will, homosexuals seem to do the same.

As for the commonly held belief that people are born homosexual, then how come the MD I trained under had homosexuals whose behavior changed when their chemicals/minerals/nutrition balance was adjusted? Effeminate behavior was tempered or stopped altogether in men and more masculine acting women became more feminine. If it was genetic would that be possible?

As for judging things, every day I read labels on the bottles in my house daily -- if there's a skull and crossbones on it, I don't drink. But I HAVE to make that judgement.

Immoral indignation and log infested eye
Excellent column! Many who are not Christians have great difficulty undertanding how we can love the sinner and hate the sin. For example, one of my relatives was a homosexual. My wife and I always treated him with kindness. We visited with him from time to time and he came to our home many times. We always presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ to him. He was never ugly to us or resented us. We always told him we loved him and he knew we hated his lifestyle. When he passed away four years ago he left part of his estate to us which amount to some significance. I know he loved us and appreciated us and the feeling was mutual.

VectorRector-
Re Common good: "Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson

While I'm at it, here's another from Jefferson: "I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Re Recruitment: It sounds as if you believe that the very act of me fighting for my equal rights is recruitment. Sorry, but when my liberties are being trampled upon, you can bank that I'm going to speak up.

Re Nature of Homosexuality: I've never read a study that conclusively made any link of homosexuality with any chemicals/minerals/nutrition. Please supply a link to that, if you have it. Personally, I don't believe it for a second. If there was any one X factor (be it medical or psychological) it would have been isolated by now, surely.

Why should I care?
As long as my neighbor is NOT breaking any laws, NOT abusing children, NOT abusing their spouse, NOT abusing animals, NOT selling illegal drugs, NOT planning terrorism, NOT damaging the property of others, NOT evading paying legitimate taxes, NOT having an affair with my own "significant other", etc., etc., etc., WHY should I care about what CONSENTING ADULT they choose to love?
If anyone wants to believe that the Bible {in its many versions}, the Quran, the Torah, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Zend-Avesta, the Popol Vuh or "Lady Chatterly's Lover" is the "inerrant" word of God . . . that is their business. It becomes MY business ONLY when they presume the "right" and the "duty" to make me live by the "laws" of their scriptural dogmas, rather than by the democratically-legislated laws of my elected government.
It doesn't matter what I personally think of homosexual behavior between consenting adults. It doesn't matter what my neighbor thinks about it. It doesn't matter what Pat Robertson or Osama bin Laden think about it. We do NOT live in a theocracy. Thank God!
What DOES matter is whether we are enforcing the Constitution. And, that Constitution declares that ALL citizens are entitled to equal rights, and, equal protection UNDER THE LAW. The fact that most people in 1850 had a more limited vision of who should qualify for equal rights and protections is irrelevant. This world, this country, and its Constitution belong to those who are still living . . . not to those who are already dead.
Do I believe that the optimal environment for children to be raised in is with a loving mother and father? Yes. I do believe that. But we do not live in an optimal world. If a child had to be raised either by biological parents who happened to be drug-abusers, or by an adoptive same-sex couple who have a loving and monogamous relationship . . . which is the more optimal environment?

Seth
Chemical/mineral/nutritional balancing alters behavior is all that is being said. There's no "cure" for homosexuality. If you choose not to participate, there are ways to help alter behaviors. The doctor who invested personal time and energy into my training garnered a lot of attention in the late 1970s early 1980s and came under outrageous attack because of it. He never made judgements, just reported his observations on a case by case basis. You seem like a reasonable guy, but I won't put his name up in this public forum and possibly open him up to attack again. His former partner and mentor is Dr. Paul Eck who died in 1996. They did many of their studies together, so feel free to track back from Eck.

I'm a researcher by nature and trade. In the course of my research, I find that most people merely want to be able to disagree with the lifestyle, not condemn the persons living it. Homosexuals can't seem to take even the criticism of the lifestyle nor the refusal of the majority to accept it as the norm.

VectorRector-
I would neither ask nor expect you to post someone's real name on a message board such as this- I'll do a little research and see what I come up with. Thanks for the info that you could give in good conscience, though. And for the record, I have minors in biochemistry and microbiology, so this is right up my alley!

Again, I can't assume to speak for all of my gay bretheren but I have no problem with whomever disagrees with how I live my life. I long ago made my peace with who I am, and anybody who knows me can attest that I live my life thoughtfully and conservatively. But I do take issue with many of the people who preach that I am choosing to be homosexual- Exactly what knowledge do they base this accusation on? It's like listening to an elephant tell a platypus that he made a conscious choice to be a creature who doesn't fit neatly into some category or other!

Yes, people can choose not to participate- I offer no argument to that statement. I could decide to be a lifelong celibate- perhaps even join a monastery (except that I'm not Catholic). But for someone to suggest this as a real and viable solution to gay men and women is truly quite insulting. The clear subtext is: "You are different; therefore, you are not deserving of the same liberties as myself and other heterosexuals."

The REAL truth is, your average homosexual is indistinguishable from the rest of society. We go to work every day, pay our share of taxes, eat at the same restaurant for lunch, have beers with our friends after work, go home to our loved ones and pets, watch the same crappy TV shows, and go to bed to rest up and do it all over again. The only difference is who we fall in love with, and build a life with- period. That said, I don't think equal treatment by the government is too much to ask for.

Seth part 2
Where are your liberties being trampled upon? Homosexuals have the same rights as any US citizens, the same individual liberties. How are homosexuals being oppressed at present? We have gay mayors, policy makers and role models. It's big news when a celebrity "comes out" as a homosexual. Many corporations recognize life partners and voluntarily offer benefits. Where is the oppression? If I saw evidence in this hour of true oppression of homosexuals in this country (try the Middle East if you think it's bad here), the first Jefferson quote would be valid.

As to the second quote, you look to homosexuality call it "progress" and "enlightenment"? It's been done, sir. Research the cultural shifts in ancient Rome that preceeded it's demise.

People continue to clamor for the legislation of morality and special treatment for pet issues. No wonder Obama is talking about starting a national civilian security force -- he'll need it to enforce the special treatment of his support groups if he gets elected. (GHOS)

It seems like with the womens' lib movement of another era (which, by the way, affected HALF of the population), the homosexual movement is never satisfied. It seems that it's not only equality that's wanted, but respect and acceptance; and no matter how much the framework of our legislation is changed, that won't come easy, and from some, not at all. Personally, I don't want to know about your lifestyle unless you come to me for counseling. I get enough at work. Nonetheless, homosexuals are keeping details in the forefront by themselves, ad nausem. Even many churches have reversed their positions, and they're historically homosexuality's greatest opponents.

VectorRector...
You vascillate from a rather respectful poster to a borderline bile-spewing proselytizer. No matter, though- I can deal with both.

RE: Keeping details in the forefront- You're casting a wide net again. There is, indeed, a vocal and militant front of gay men out there. Proportional to the equally vocal and militant fundamentalist neo-cons who would just assume to re-classify homosexuality as a mental deficiency and lock us all up in concentration camps.

RE: The fall of Rome- I've read many, many explanations as to the reason(s) for the fall of Rome. Are you seriously going to suggest that homosexuality was the sole cause? Most historians agree that the crumble was due to several factors.

RE: Where are my liberties being trampled upon- I've stated this ad-nauseum. You as a straight person are guaranteed certain protections of a contract between you and the person of the opposite sex that you choose to build a life with. I, on the other hand, do not. Yes- some companies offer benefits to same sex partners. All well and good. But consider the opposite- Suppose a very gay-friendly company decided to deny straight couples for health insurance benefits? Do you think for a minute that decision wouldn't be challenged as unfair?

I beg to differ...
"Certainly, some have effeminate traits, but such thoughts would not have come to mind twenty years ago. Today, if a youngster exhibits a certain mannerism, or preference in play, he runs the risk of having his environment artificially shaped for him."

When I was in junior high in the late 70s (more like 30 years ago), everyone used to pick on the sissy boys mercilessly. Funny thing was, all of them were named Scott.
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