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Saturday, January 19, 2008
Phil Harris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Test Candidate Words with the Sword
by Phil Harris
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


So much of media/pundit lip flapping over the past few election cycles has been devoted to the “Evangelical” vote. The term has been loosely defined at best, if not entirely mischaracterized or downright adulterated at worst. To examine Presidential candidates who would woo the evangelical vote, it is important to note whether they truly understand who it is they seek.

When the average citizen hears the term evangelical, mental imagery will vary from the true meaning, all the way down to some misguided equivocation to cultish demons like Jim Jones and David Koresh, or even Islamic extremism. Unfortunately, the liberal media is more likely than not to hold and espouse such misconceptions.

Evangelical, as defined with general accuracy in most dictionary entries, best describes the individual Christian. It pertains to their role in carrying forth the message of salvation from Jesus Christ, and it is each Christian individual’s overriding purpose in life, as commanded by Jesus, to spread that message throughout the world.

It is an uncomplicated, but difficult concept to grasp, that all are guilty of sin and incapable of standing in the Presence and Glory of God. That only through the sacrifice that Jesus made, to die in our place for our sin, can we once again be made worthy.

Salvation comes when we recognize that by our own actions, no matter how “good” we are, or how “perfectly” we live our lives, we will all fail until we acknowledge that God gave his Son, Jesus, for that purpose, and accept his sacrifice as the only worthy payment for our sin.

It is this message that has been broadly shared for decades by notable Evangelists like Billy Graham. During hundreds of televised crusades, he did not stand at the center of giant stadiums, surrounded by tens of thousands of people, and preach on the evils of smoking, or the perils of drinking alcohol.

Graham did not strive to convince his audience that they should be charitable, and he did not rail on those who fail to get up in time for church on Sunday mornings. Billy Graham’s message was always concerned with the simple declaration that each of us has sinned and has been condemned to eternal separation from God, and that God has invited each one to believe that Jesus paid the price for us, individually.

This message was not invented by charismatic men, seeking fame and fortune. Indeed, most true evangelical leaders throughout history have been characterized more by poverty and persecution, beginning with the original Disciples of Jesus.

In Matthew, Chapter 10, Jesus is giving instructions to these Disciples as they prepare to go out into the world. Here are some interesting verses that fly in the face of mischaracterizations that are frequently thrown around today:

17 "Watch out! Men will hand you over to the local courts. They will whip you in their synagogues.
18 You will be brought to governors and kings because of me. You will be witnesses to them and to those who aren't Jews.
19 "But when they arrest you, don't worry about what you will say or how you will say it. At that time you will be given the right words to say.
20 It will not be you speaking. The Spirit of your Father will be speaking through you.”

…and a little further down…

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I didn't come to bring peace. I came to bring a sword.
35 I have come to turn ‘sons against their fathers. Daughters will refuse to obey their mothers. Daughters-in-law will be against their mothers-in-law.
36 A man's enemies will be the members of his own family.'
37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And anyone who does not pick up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 If anyone finds his life, he will lose it. If anyone loses his life because of me, he will find it.”

I would suggest reading the entire chapter 10 of the Gospel of Matthew. There is little left to the imagination in these words of Jesus, as to what our mission on the planet is. Many who claim the mantle of Christianity have not the faintest understanding of what it means, and to throw around the term “evangelical” as if it were some kind of goofy mindset that afflicts a percentage of the population is as nonsensical as saying that I want to be a bulldozer when I grow up.

Barack Obama is a member of the “Trinity United Church of Christ” in Chicago. Browsing through that congregation’s website is enlightening, to say the least. Despite what appears to be traditional Christian teaching, enormous resources and effort are devoted to the concept of being “Black” as opposed to being representatives of Christ Jesus, God the Son.

For instance, this proclamation has since been moved or removed, but can still be found in the Internet Archives of their website.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

I see two elements in this vision list that I would recognize, as an evangelical, having anything to do with the core mission given us by Jesus Christ. I would also contrast this with the words of Jesus that I included above, that if we hold to “anything” or “anybody”, before Jesus then we are not committed to Jesus Christ as he demands. It would seem that this church has decided that the Loving Africa and Black Skin, is far more important than is any commitment to the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

Listen to the candidates as they speak to “evangelical” audiences. What are they saying that should inspire you to believe that they hold the Words of Jesus to any importance? Do they resemble an evangelical in any way, shape, or form?

When we see Hillary Clinton, or Rudy Giuliani stroll into some campaign-trail church, does this really mean anything to us as the “evangelical” vote?  We should already know the answer to that question concerning Mitt Romney. His faith has little or nothing to do with the Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow, despite the Mormon Church’s protestations otherwise.

Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace to the world, but rather he brings a Sword. It is on the edge of that sword that we need to test the words and actions of candidates, as they claim to be “one of us.” If we give them our vote, because they have veiled themselves in words they do not truly believe, then I might suggest that we are voluntarily submitting to the desires of the prince of darkness. Let us take extreme care, so that we do not squander our influence, however great or small it may be.

 

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About The Author

Phil Harris is a software engineer, author of Cry for the Shadows and blogs at Citizen Phil.

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Scooter
do you take medication or do you allways fly off the handel and go bananas? If you do not maybe you should start.

Please be kind and Christ-like
Insert any other religion for Mormon and everyone would come after you for being a bigot. Please don't tell me that I'm not a Christian when I try as hard as I can to follow Christ's perfect example. He is my Redeemer and Savior. No matter how good I try to be it will never be enough. Only through His grace can I be forgiven of my sins. I feel great peace as I study the scriptures and try to apply what I learn there to my life. Nothing is more important to me than to raise my children unto the Lord. There is so much good in many different religions. Let us refrain from judging one another. We must pull together as Christians and as Americans to choose the candidate that we think will best lead and protect our great nation. There is too much at stake to become side-tracked into name calling and telling someone else what they are or are not. If elected, I have no doubt that Mitt Romney, as a God fearing man, could become one of the greatest presidents we will every know. He is a man of integrity and honor. Take a look at his life. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Please take the time to really know and understand before jumping to conclusions about the faith of another. And if you happen to disagree, be kind. We are all children of a kind and loving Heavenly Father who loves us and longs to bless us.

Scooter
Are you always so critical of others, especially the sincerity of their faith?

Are you saved?

I think evangelicals
usually call themselves "born again." I am a "mainstream" Christian and not born again, but I believe Christiantiy offers mankind salvation and is the root of a Western civilization that emphasizes individual rights and political freedom.

On the other hand, I don't want to see Huckabee's religious maunderings or Romney's Mormonism become the focus of a national campaign. The MSM which is worth a gadzillion in advertising for the oppostion isn't religious and doesn't know how to report on religious issues or questions. In the last 30 years, the MSM alliance with liberalism puts it in bed with aboritonists and homosexual rights extremists who regular attack Christianity for opposing both death-dealing philosophies. They aren't going to assess Huckabee or Romney with any objectivity and would turn them into repulsive creatures for having religous practices.

E-Mail Spread Lies About Obama
Jewish Leaders Say E-Mail Spread Lies About Obama

NYT-The leaders of nine Jewish groups released an open letter on Tuesday condemning what they called “hateful e-mails” that they said spread lies about Senator Barack Obama’s religious beliefs and his intentions.

The anonymous e-mail messages have circulated for months, saying that Mr. Obama is a Muslim and carried a copy of the Koran when he was sworn in at the United States Senate.

He is a Christian who has attended Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago since he was a community organizer there in the 1980s.

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/jewish-leaders-say -e-mail-spread-lies-about-obama





Real concern
Anyone who develops real concern, as a result of this article, might be aptly concerned with the bigoted and biased nature of Barack Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ.

If any Christian church in American openly and overtly focued such much of its Website on "white" to the same degree that Trinity United focuses on black, African and African-American, that church would be blasted for its blatantly bigotry. But no one bats an eye that Barack Obama, a candidate for President of the United States, openly declares support for such a racist institution and throughout his entire campaign has, obviously, refused to switch his allegiance to a more moderate and obviously less bigoted church.

That has been just one of my concerns with him from the start. Not that there aren't plenty more -- lack of experience being the biggie -- but this guy supports a church that is openly bigoted, openly biased and possibly, covertly, racist. That's enough for me.

Why People Are Nervous
A major factor in the election of George W Bush was the support of voters who identified themselves as "evangelical" or "born-again". Since then we have seen: 1) federal funds diverted to social service agencies that practice Christian conversion; 2) unprecedented "Christian" control of medical research; 3) presidential support of prejudice against homosexual citizens; 4) widespread attempt to put evangelical belief into laws that would affect all, not just evangelicals, regarding public education, contraception, termination of pregnancy, and end-of-life.

If an Orthodox Jew were elected president and soon we saw a campaign to keep all Americans from eating pork, there would be an outcry. But the same thing has happened. Repeatedly we have been told that the beliefs and moral standards of evangelical Christians are so superior to all others that they should become national policy.

After seven years of this, Americans are feeling more threatened by religious extremism than ever before. For good reason, many are wary of a candidate who advertises his religiosity. Most absolutely do not want religious extremists setting national policy.

Mormons
"We should already know the answer to that question concerning Mitt Romney. His faith has little or nothing to do with the Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow, despite the Mormon Church’s protestations otherwise."

Ah, yes. If you criticise women, you are called sexist. If you criticise blacks, you are called racist. If you criticise Mormons, you are called CHRISTIAN.

Left and religion
When we have a presidential candidate that may consider Africa more important than this country that is a problem. This man also failed to salute the flag (there is a photo of other candidate saluting and him not doing so) and I understand will not wear one on his collar.

Politically we need a president that is committed to the USA and our interests. Not to Africa or divided between USA and Africa.

Arby
"..But no one bats an eye that Barack Obama, a candidate for President of the United States, openly declares support for such a racist institution and throughout his entire campaign has, obviously, refused to switch his allegiance to a more moderate and obviously less bigoted church."

If your ancestors had been slaves, and treated like property, and then been subjected to hate and discrimination for for decades, then you might have a church too, that focuses on the Black Christian experience. Also, as harris points out they appear to be trying to appease the whites who feel offended by removing insensitive material from their site. That's one of the great things about Obama, maybe now the Black culture will come into the mainstream more. Saying they are racist though, doesn't work. They love whites and all Christians and their congregation is a mixture. Personally, I'd never judge any Christian, it just seems, well, unchristian like.

Arby
Are you old enough to remember the 1960's? After decades and centuries of the social mantra being that blacks were inferior and could get ahead only by eschewing black culture, the pendulum swung and blacks began to have a sense that maybe they were OK after all. Instead of getting their hair straightened to look more like Caucasian hair, black women began to wear their hair cut short in "natural" or "afro" cuts. African fabrics became fashionable. Black people began to collect African art. Pretty soon in the 1970's we all watched "Roots" on television. Travel companies promoted black travel to African countries. Soul food appeared on menus.

Did all of this mean that black Americans suddenly weren't Americans? No, it meant that they were developing more of a sense of who they were as a people and where their ancestors came from. What we are talking about here is ethnic identity (just think: St Patrick's Day). I don't know but I am guessing that Obama's church wrote that proud mission statement at about the time this country was beginning to show some respect for black culture.

It is silly to suggest that Obama is a Muslim because from about age 6-9 he attended a secular public school in a country with many Muslim residents. It is equally silly to suggest that his first allegiance is to Africa because he attends a church that once learned to say "black is beautiful". If you are against Obama because he is a Democrat or because he is black, then just come out and say so.

Evangelical?
"It is an uncomplicated, but difficult concept to grasp". If is so uncomplicated, then why is it so difficult? If you mean the MSM understanding of the concept, then I understand!

"His (Mitt Romney) faith has little or nothing to do with the Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow, despite the Mormon Church’s protestations otherwise." (?) It seems to us to be Evangeicals who are doing the protesting. We Mormon's have no problem with concept of "salvation" through Christ. We will put our trust in Jesus the Chirst to settle that one.

Another uncomplicated truth for me is how well we "Mormons" and "Evangelicals" get along, if we just live what we believe; and, not get to concerned when editorialists and the MSM try to make it seem so, well, difficult.


Brujo Blanco
Effective as of 9-11-01, President George W Bush appropriated flag pins on lapels, flags flown on lawns, The Pledge of Allegiance, singing patriotic songs, waving the American flag, cheering at parades, joining the Army, and all other overt acts of patriotic fervor AS HIS OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. We were given the message that George W Bush = USA. To show patriotism in ways that we had always done before was now a way of showing support for George W Bush and all he has brought us: support for pre-emptive war, for Abu Ghraib, for Guantanamo, for Cheney's secrecy and his contempt for Americans, for secret wiretapping, for detaining citizens without due process of law, for Gonzales' moving of legal goalposts; for "lost" White House e-mails and CIA memos; for dozens more examples of saying "the Bush government is above the law".

Obama does right not to show support for the perversion of America that has been created by George W Bush. All Germans who loved their country did not cheer Adolf Hitler.

If you are against Obama because he is a Democrat or because he is black, just say so.

I'm against Obama because
if he were a white guy with 2 terms (4 years) in a state legislature mostly voting "present" with an unproductive and unremarkable jr. US Senate position (also 4 years) where he now isn't even available to vote "present," he would not be taken seriously as a candidate for most governorships let alone the presidency of the US. I don't think the color of anyuone's skin should be reason alone for competency.

Obama's "programs" are nothing more than 19th C. socialism (more taxing and more spending) and 1930s pacifism (a prelude to WW II) and pretty speeches. DC professional politicians and bureaucrats would eat him alive in his inexperience and lack of practical abiltiy.

The DC pols rejected Carter and his idealism and turned him into a one-term president. JFK actually did very little himself, for all the press he gets. His programs were all passed under Johnson in sympathy votes. Weak presidents make for troubled foreign policy and create powerful Congresses (Gerry Ford). Who wants this do-nothing Congress to be any more "powerful" to do more nothing?

Actually, maybe that's a good idea. If Congress never voted another law (the tax code is 6-feet thick), we might be better off.

Judge not, that ye be not judged
I guarantee that Harris has never been to a single Sunday meeting of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If he had, he would not make the cheap shot against the LDS Church contained in this column. The members of that Church do know and love the Jesus of the gospels. Every week they take the sacrament to remember him.

My Methodist pastor once made a derisive comment about Mormons similar to Harris's. This caused me to investigate the LDS Church. I found that its members were trying harder to follow the commandment of Christ than any group I had been exposed to. That's more important than whether Mormons are wrong to think that Jesus was not praying to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane, or that Stephen the martyr was not seeing double when he saw Christ at the right hand of the Father.

Still, Mormons should be pleased that Harris is talking such trash about them. "Blessed are ye, when men shall ... utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account ... for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11.

lilly
Just what is your problem, not being truthful is a sin for heavens sake.
Is CNN & CBS the only TV you watch?
With out the BIBLE, civilization cannot survive because it is the only "law book" we really have.

A major reason to avoid
Huckabee and Romney as candidates is to escape repeated liturgical discussions of doctrinaire details of the creeds and practices of evangelicals and LDS.

You are wrong, Mr. Harris!
The Mormon faith espouses the doctrine of the saving grace of Jesus Christ and always will. You are so very wrong, Mr. Harris! I know you are a good man because you strive to follow Christ, too. However, do not denigrate another religion because you have yourself been indoctrinated by the anti-Mormon crowd.

To pandm
Your argument that "the Bible is the only law book we have" could also be made by a Muslim saying that "the Koran is the only law book we have" or a Jew saying "the Torah is the only law book we have". Many decent people regard both as useful historic and cultural texts but not as law which must be literally followed.

I imagine our Bible has passages you accept as allegorical and do not follow literally. "Do not cross the street on the red light" is law to be followed literally; "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out" is not. However, if a Christian, Muslim, or Jew does choose to take his Bible, Koran, or Torah literally, that is his right---but he may not force his beliefs upon the rest of us, as evangelical Christians wish to do.

You are wrong NSD
Concerning the The Book of Mormons;

(Rev 22:18) For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book.

(Pro 30:6) Do not add to His Words, that He not reprove you, and you be found a liar.

I am not an evangelical
or even a church goer, but I have applauded the messages of the evengelicals. Through the years since the 60"s and the ongoing quest for liberation and freedom from all kinds of standards and values resulting in the "anything goes" vulgarity of our nation, I have been pleased with those who stand for something else.

Religion & Politics
Have you not heard of THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Anyone who would base their vote merely on a religious preference is either shallow-minded or has a limited capacity to understand the real issues. Judge a candidates integrity, his high moral standards, his example of having lived conservative social values, not on gossip about his particular brand of faith. Judge him by HIS ACTIONS. Does his life reflect Christian values? If a person has lived a Christian life and believes in Christ, how can others deny his Christianity? Some of the wild religious rantings on the net are insane and make me fear for the mental health of our nation. Bigotry should be beneath our dignity.

Mormon Christ is not
the Christ of the Bible, so Phil's comment was not a "cheap shot."

For the Christian, Christ has existed eternally. As part of the Trinity, Christ is God but is a separate person from God the father (not a separate being). Christ was conceived miraculously by a creative act - not a procreative act - on the part of the Holy Spirit: Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus. Finally, Jesus atoned for the sin of mankind on the cross.

What does the LDS teach about Christ? In a sermon preached by Smith on June 16, 1844 he clearly stated that Jesus is one of three gods. The LDS teaches as a primary doctrine that Jesus and Satan were spirit-brothers in the pre-existence. And, according to many, many LDS scholars, apostles and prophets (including Brigham Young), God had physical sexual intercourse with Mary to produce the body Jesus inhabited, but Mary was still a virgin to mortal man. Finally, the LDS Church says that Jesus atoned for sins primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane. While current doctrine says that the atonement was also finished at the Cross, historically their doctrine has been that the full atonement was in the Garden. So we have the LDS Christ being: 1. one of three gods, 2. the literal spirit-brother of Satan, 3. conceived through sexual intercourse, and 4. atoned for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Mormons are not Christians. They can call their made up person "Christ" just like you can call a dandelion a rose, but that doesn't change the true identity of either one.

Mr. Harris
Great commetary.

I believe that the very term "Christian" has become too over used and rendered meaningless. Just because a person claims to be a Christian, or boasts of a church affiliation is not indication of their unwavering devotion to Jesus. One need only look to the fruit being produced by the individual.

(Joh 15:5) I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me, and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because apart from Me you are not able to execute, nothing.

Huckabee and Tome Cruise - same
If passion for a faith is the determining factor of truth then both Huckabee and Tom Cruise are correct. We live in scary times.
Ohg
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/19/mike-huckabee-and-tom -cruise-kindred-spirits/

I aleays get confused
when the Mormons start telling me what they believe. Do Mormons believe that belief in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are necessary for salvation? Conversely, do Mormons believe that faith is Jesus of Nazareth is sufficient for salvation and the teachings of Joseph Smith are not needed to be saved? I really do not know the answer to the above two questions and would like to know which of the two is the teaching of the Mormon faith.

Mormons are not Christian. #2
To the Christian, God is a spirit and not a man, nor was He ever a man: God has always existed as God. There is only one God and there has never been, nor ever will be, more than one God. Man will never be a god.

What does the LDS teach about God? Joseph Smith preached a sermon at the funeral of King Follet, and from this sermon we learn that the Mormons see God as a man who worked his way to godhood. We learn there are many gods, and that a Mormon who does all the right works will become a god himself.

The law of non-contradiction says both these belief systems cannot be Christian - one has to be false. I think I'll stick to the truth of the one that has been around for 2000 years vs the one a so-called prophet discovered 170 years ago - if it's new it isn't true and if it's true, it isn't new.

As with the Mormon Christ vs the Christian Christ, the Mormons have a dandelion they are trying to call a rose.

Mormons are not Christian. #3
For the Christian the Bible is the Word of God, complete as we have it. Christians say the canon of Scripture was closed with the end of the New Testament, and that any new revelation by God cannot contradict what we already know from God in the Holy Bible, or else it is not from God. Christians say that no one can add to - or subtract from - God’s Word.

The LDS believe in the Holy Bible “as far as it is translated correctly,” and the King James Version is their official model. Joseph Smith did a so-called translation from direct revelation. Smith added dozens of passages to Genesis, especially, in order to buttress the LDS doctrines about plural gods, etc. The Utah church will often deny that Smith finished his translation because they don’t have the copyright to it. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now called the Community of Christ) obtained the original manuscript from Smith’s wife Emma and they publish the book as “The Holy Scriptures - Inspired Version.” It is also known simply as the “Joseph Smith Translation.”

Even if the Utah Church refuses to give official doctrinal sanction to the JST, they recognize a huge section of Genesis as “Moses” in their accepted doctrinal book, “The Pearl of Great Price.” The POGP also contains the “Book of Abraham” which purportedly was translated from an Egyptian funeral document and gives additional data for the book of Genesis. Additionally, the POGP includes Smith’s version of selections from the book of Matthew. And, finally, they claim that the Book of Mormon is from God, as well as their Doctrines & Covenants, which are supposed direct revelations from God. All these materials add to the Bible and usually contradict it.

Again, the two belief systems cannot both be true. The evidence is against the Mormons.

renny (6:42am)
Agree (as I do with many of your posts).
Good points all.

Joseph Smith, Jr.;Brigham Young, US Laws
Look up Mormonism in Wikipedia, and in Mormon documents. I've visited their temple in Utah and other places, and have no desire to be a member of the LDS, for many reasons, the main one being I am a Christian, not impressed with the 1830 Book of Mormon, or of the Mormons who have visited me at my door who haven't even read the Bible through, once. My mother read one of her Bibles through over 90 times. I see a big difference in her and them--I see Jesus, and the fruit of His Holy Spirit in her, and good works many people could do with self-discipline, in them. I love Mormons, including Mitt Romney...but I won't vote for him--not if I have a pro-life, God-fearing, Love of God and Holy Spirit indwelt Christian available. Jesus lives in us, and still we need the help of education, parents, colleagues, non-Christians, friends and even enemies to become all He intended Christians to be in the world He created. We as Christians need to be humble, wise and confident...and friendly, and willing to live or die for Christ.

Mormans
I live in an area with a lot of Mormons, and can tell anyone, unequivocally they are not only Christians but the nicest family people on earth. Yes, a lot of the tenants of Mormonism strike one as odd but don't let that fool you.

Another Mormon About "Mormon" Beliefs
"His faith has little or nothing to do with the Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow, despite the Mormon Church’s protestations otherwise."

I don't think that the "Mormon Church" claims that they have faith in the "Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow". They protest meerly that they believe in Jesus Christ and the evangelicals and others deny them this claim. The evangelicals aren't the gatekeepers on the title "Christian". Members of the LDS Church know and follow Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was commanded to join none of the churches of his day, because they were all wrong; that all of their creeds were an abomination. He was the Prophet called to restore Jesus' gospel.


I don't care
what the Mormons believe or for that matter what sciencetology believes. I look at ideas of government and the life a politician has led. (For instance, Romney has stayed married to one wife, has 5 successful sons and no scandal attached to him or his family.)

Re: "Mormon's are not Christians" 1
Interesting topic. What is even more interesting is the fact that people seem compelled to define Mormons according to their own "subjective" terms rather than using an objective measure.

There is absolutely no doubt that there are doctrinal differences between Mormons and Evangelicals- so what! There are doctrinal differences between different Evangelical sects as well! That doesn't make them any less christian. I could sit here and begin to point out why I think I'm right and try to justify the claims above. I'm happy to answer any question anyone might ask.

Claims that we don't believe in Christ are unfounded. As stated above, Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible and believe it be the word of God, and yes as far as it is translated correctly. There are translations of the Bible today that try to define God as a abstract and unreal being as well as attempt to justify homosexuality and a number of other activities that are contrary to God's teachings. I don't think other denominations would accept those versions of the bible either.

Bluepiper writes "To the Christian, God is a spirit and not a man, nor was He ever a man: God has always existed as God. There is only one God and there has never been, nor ever will be, more than one God... As part of the Trinity, Christ is God but is a separate person from God the father (not a separate being)." Respectfully, can you explain how God and Christ are separate people but not a separate being, and if they are not separate beings and God is spirit and not a man how it is that Christ was a man with a body? My intent is not to be combative or mean spirited. I simply want to point out that very often men interpret the bible differently when it is closed as opposed to when it is open. Meaning, when we study the bible in context we learn things that don't necessarily agree with the ideas that men teach.

Re: "Mormon's are not Christians" 2
Us Mormons hold the following as one of our articles of faith:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

As I mentioned earlier, we should use an objective measure to define what a Christian is. I'm comfortable deferring to Acts 11:26 as that standard.

One final question to ponder: if Mormons are such horrible christians, or even if you believe they aren't christian and doomed to hell, why do they make such good conservatives?

Cheers!

loco
Thats the best point yet!

Christians live and die for Christ...
almanojodo writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 11:41 AM
Yes, Virginia, I've heard of the "Separation of Church and State" and found it written in my encyclopedia, in the consitution of the USSR...although in the US it was mentioned in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Baptist Church in Connecticut, to assure them the government of the USA was powerless to change their way of worship, and he encouraged them to embrace the US documents that ensure freedom of faith, unencumbered by political dogma--read it for yourself. Christians practice their faith, and most signers of the Declaration of Independence were evangelical, biblically committed, Christ indwelt pastors preaching the gospel...whew. (And it's not exactly a crazy document...)
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responding to:
Religion & Politics
Have you not heard of THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Anyone who would base their vote merely on a religious preference is either shallow-minded or has a limited capacity to understand the real issues. Judge a candidates integrity, his high moral standards, his example of having lived conservative social values, not on gossip about his particular brand of faith. Judge him by HIS ACTIONS. Does his life reflect Christian values? If a person has lived a Christian life and believes in Christ, how can others deny his Christianity? Some of the wild religious rantings on the net are insane and make me fear for the mental health of our nation. Bigotry should be beneath our dignity.
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Invitation to all bigots, and non-bigots
See the tiny book of Jude in the Bible...Christians must contend for the faith, and share the opportunity for forgiveness that God gives through Jesus Christ, God in A Bod, in dying for sin, rising to prove death died at His entry into it, His ascension through the air/clouds (ruled by satan, the prince of the power of the air for a season) and His statement, "I will return..." for My family...living and dead. Commitment to Christ is not bigotry but our reality, and Christians welcome the worst and the best of people to get forgiven, and receive the eternal life of Christ, and ongoing forgiveness and 'CORRECTION', from God our Father, through Jesus, God with us and in us by His Spirit.

Re Obama's church
Some say that because his church is concerned about helping Blacks specifically that they are racist.

I see the matter differently. Help the members of your congregation. Yes, I've read all the posts and heard Shon debate the issue on the radio.

What if people are reading too much into the mission statement of that church as somehow being anti - US or anti - white.

There is nothing about Obama's public statements that causes me to think or feel that he is a racist.

I support Mitt - but I defend the honor of all the candidates. Mr. Harris believes that my religion is non Christian. I respectfully disagree. My prayers and my life will be the same as I attempt to follow the Savior, regardless of what Mr. Harris and others believe about my religious integrity.

Free speech is alive and well.


loco: And, not to mention, Mitt has

actually managed something... like a state!

And he's had vast SUCCESSFUL EXPERIENCE in other areas.

So, Huck has also been a gov., and managed a state, but he does scare me just a tad with his statements about "tinkering with OUR Constitution (whether or not it's likely that he could do it.)

And Huck has also made statements that are obvioulsy "socialist" in nature. Not happy with that!!!!

So, comparing one with the other... I think Mitt has the upper hand.


Phil Harris
writes, "We should already know the answer to that question concerning Mitt Romney. His faith has little or nothing to do with the Jesus that Evangelical Christians know and follow, despite the Mormon Church’s protestations otherwise."

Yes, your honor. Judge Harris has made his ruling after careful consideration of the facts. Let no man hereafter disagree. Are you basing this on your own wisdom or your pastor's?

James 2:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

Rev 20: 12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I suggest you judge a church by its works and not by what some pastor claims is the truth as only he knows it.

One necessity, the living Christ in us..
Look up Mormonism in Wikipedia, and in Mormon documents. I've visited their temple in Utah and other places, and have no desire to be a member of the LDS, for many reasons, the main one being I am a Christian, not impressed with the 1830 Book of Mormon, or of the Mormons who have visited me at my door who haven't even read the Bible through, once. My mother read one of her Bibles through over 90 times. I see a big difference in her and 'them'--I see Jesus, and the fruit of His Holy Spirit in her, and good works anyone can do with self-discipline, in them. I love Mormons, including Mitt Romney...but I won't vote for him.
Look up Mormonism in Wikipedia, and in Mormon documents. I've visited their temple in Utah and other places, and have no desire to be a member of the LDS, for many reasons, the main one being I am a Christian, not impressed with the 1830 Book of Mormon, or of the Mormons who have visited me at my door who haven't even read the Bible through, once. My mother read one of her Bibles through over 90 times. I see a big difference in her and 'them'--I see Jesus, and the fruit of His Holy Spirit in her, and good works anyone can do with self-discipline, in them. I love Mormons, including Mitt Romney...but I won't vote for him.

To create,
createinmeacleanheartJESUS writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 12:45 PM
Joseph Smith, Jr.;Brigham Young, US Laws
Look up Mormonism in Wikipedia, and in Mormon documents. I've visited their temple in Utah and other places


So tell me, if you've visited the Mormon Temple in Utah and other places, whihc one did you like best? Also, which one has the best interior design and layout for getting from one part of it to another?

I'm interested in knowing more about this from your point of view.

Taft
Are you serious when you wrote...

"...maybe now the Black culture will come into the mainstream more."

How much more mainstream could it become? Children all over the nation are putting hip-hop on their ipods/mp3s, talking like black culture, and even Target used the music from Sir Mix-a-lot's 'I like big butts' in their back-to-school ads.

Give me a big time break. How much longer must this country make concessions and allowances to 'minorities' in order to make up for past sins or in the name of diversity?

I don't judge based on skin pigmentation, but I will judge (the Bible does call for us to be discerning) on actions. If you expect me to buy into unacceptable behaviour simply because it is coming from a person of color you just better keep looking.

Bigotry is bigotry, regardless of the color of the skin of the bigot.

Oh, and one more thing - Obama's dad is from Kenya and (white) mom is from Kansas. Obama spent his formative years outside the US (6-10) and grew up in Hawaii. Not exactly Harlem.

Mitt and his lobbyists
Is Mitt going to be a lackey for lobbyists? He has close ties to say he will.

Anne: And Mitt did well
in my caucus precinct. Here in my Nevada precinct -- I've just finished with the caucus -- Mitt received just under 50% of the vote. Paul and Thompson had 16% each. Giulliani and Huckster were distant 3rd and 4th. The arguments for Mitt were -- businessman, right side of security, right side now of abortion, and is electable.
For what it is worth I supported Fred.
That's the preliminary report from NE Nevada.

It has been my experience
that many so called christian demoninations preach that we are saved by acknowledging Jesus as our Saviour and nothing else matters. That would be pretty darn simple if true.

I guess they only read the parts that they like in the Bible.

That bit about the sword is probably the only part that Muhammad remembered. It is difficult to grasp it all. Takes a lot of study, probably more than a lifetime. But, I know you got it all down pat Phil.

Good Morning Anne
Or should I say Good Afternoon since it's almost 1:30 there in Pa.?

I totally agree with you about Mitt's experience. We're supporting him here all we can since Fred appears to be dying.

BTW, how did you enjoy Glenn's book?

Hey elko: Was just thinking about you

and wondering how things were going in Nevada.

"The arguments for Mitt were -- businessman, right side of security, right side now of abortion, and is electable."

All excellent and well founded arguments!!!

I am first a Thompson supporter, and then Romney, but could easily and comfortably pull the lever for Romney if he gets the nomination.

Keep us posted... Thanks.





Elko.Mike: Results: Romney Wins Nevada?
http://townhall.com/blog/g/db86aa21-10c3-4fc1-a96d-52f25641 b6dd


Posted by: Jonathan Garthwaite at 1:04 PM
NBC,FOX projects Romney will win the Nevada caucus. No big surprise. He was polling well ahead of his competitors.

Wait, it's 1:30PM on the East coast. What time is it in Navada and Utah...? Isn't this just a bit pre-mature???


Anne: Other news from Nevada
was that this was our first caucus. Lots of grumbling from the folks who attended. I kind of enjoyed the experience myself. Our turnout was 3x the projection, which caused resulting in standing room only inside of the gymnasium. The event wasn't as smooth as it might be because of the size of the turnout and the fact it was our first caucus. But we still finished up in a little less than an hour.

Interestingly, I don't think most of the people who attended understood that our candidate vote was just a straw poll. We chose delegates to represent us at the Nevada Caucus in March. At that regional convention the chosen delegates will decide how Nevada will cast its delegates at the RNC. None of the delegates chosen was bound to any candidate so we are sending 10 representatives to the Nevada Republican Convention who may cast a vote as they see fit.

Tadpole
I agree about the hip/hop culture penetrating our society but the thing I was really thinking more on the lines was maybe, and probably way to polly annishly, that the Black's, while having pride in their heritage like Irish people, would assimilate further into the fabric of American society to the point where a Obama can run for president, without his color even being an issue.


Hey Hockey Mom: And good afternoon

to you... :-)

"...supporting him here all we can since Fred appears to be dying."

I've heard that from others... My question is, how would Fred be doing if all those who voted for someone else because they thought Fred was dying actually voted for Fred?

Just sayin'....

Glenn's book? Loved it. I was a Glenn Beck listener when he was on radio.. before CNN, and really liked him then. As much as I like Hannity and O'Reilly, they'd better watch out for Glenn. :-)




Anne: Nevada is in PT and
the Republican Caucus was from 9-10AM (12-1PM ET). We are all done and it should take too long for the precincts to report up. Dems caucus at 11AM here and that will be more entertaining.

The devils acknowledge Jesus and tremble
Acknowledging the historical and eternal Jesus does not give you eternal life--just an education.

Jesus said He came to give life, more abundantly...His eternal kind of life, by His Spirit. He said the devil roams about as a thief, trying to devour people created in the image of God. Jesus also said He came to earth to 'destroy the works of the devil" who appears in disguise, with some good works--like and 'angel of light'.

The thief on one of the three crosses where Christ also died, wasn't a church or temple member,not baptized, not confirmed, and he said to the other thief on the third cross..."We have done wrong, this Man has not. Lord remember me when you come into Your kingdom". There was only a confession of personal sin, and an acknowledgment of JESUS as perfect--therefore God with us for 33 years. Jesus replied, "Today you will be with Me in paradise." Jesus also said, "He that has seen Me has seen the Father...". Jesus was present with His Father before the creation of the worlds...and returned to His Father, as He stated. He said, "I must go away so I can send you My Spirit...and I (still/yet) am with you always, even to the end of the world"...a paraphrase, but look it up for yourself in the four gospels.

Yes, easy to become a Christian for the thief on the cross because Christ is the way, the truth and the life...the way home for any sin-sick earth dweller. Jesus authored faith, GOD is love, and gives hope for more...and Christians will not be ashamed when they see Him face to face--our Advocate, Jesus! One with His Father and one with the Holy Spirit...love INCARNATE...and King...and yes, our final Judge...judgment based on His works IN US, or our own weak works of the flesh. (The latter 'works' aren't enough...OR JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE COME.)

Surprise..Romney wins Nevada!
Actually no surprise.

Well, we're waiting for our primary's
And we intend to vote for Fred since we don't believe the "polls."
The problem is that the media is working hard to beat him and sadly too many otherwise intelligent people are falling for it.

But we're keeping our fingers crossed.

P.S. Don't tell you know who this(I can say it since he's off with friends for the day), but his soon to be niece is doing great so far. He's dying to know her gender but I ain't telling him, just to drive him nuts. LOL

I liked the white statue of Jesus...
Hockey Mom writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 1:15 PM
To create,
createinmeacleanheartJESUS writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 12:45 PM
Joseph Smith, Jr.;Brigham Young, US Laws
Look up Mormonism in Wikipedia, and in Mormon documents. I've visited their temple in Utah and other places
====================
Response to Hockey Mom....
I liked that statue, and have my children in a photo with that statue. I didn't like the 12 bulls...I think there were 12, at the open house of an unblessed temple, around a baptismal pool--where Mormons baptize for holacoust victims and others who have died,who are not Mormon. The community was invited. I don't like the angel Maroni on the steeple of the "cross-less" temple down the street from me, and the same problem with one temple across town. I don't like temple underwear...makes no sense to me so far, and I didn't like the offer of a planet/star in eternity, posthumously, for Mormon families--each gets one, to continue reproduction of humans. Seems as confusing as the offer of some virgins to those who kill for Allah...more sex doesn't impress me that much--it's temporary--love lasts. I am learning more than I really wanted to know about Mormonism, and thanks for asking...you should.


Elko: That's interesting...


1. Navada's first caucus. What was the impetus for Navada to go to Caucus this time?

2. "I don't think most of the people who attended understood that our candidate vote was just a straw poll."

Not encouraging that most people didn't understand that it was just a straw poll...

So, if "None of the delegates chosen was bound to any candidate so we are sending 10 representatives to the Nevada Republican Convention who may cast a vote as they see fit." how significant is this Caucus (straw poll?)

But that answers one question, why paul did as well as he apparently did...

What was encouraging (IMHO) was that your turnout was 3x the projection.

I guess I'm just concerned that so many people "show up" but don't KNOW what's happening!



Hey H. Mom: I think you just spilled the

beans! Ha Ha...

Good for you! I just can't believe that Thompson is dead in the water YET!

Here's the thing about Romney!

I could vote for Romney... easily... if he got the nomination. No second thought!!

But, while I'd like to see Thompson get the nomination, I think there are several Cabinet positions that Romney wouldn not only be EXCELLENT in, but we need him in NOW!

In fact, I think we could use two or three Romneys in various Cabinet positions.... Treasury not the least of them.


(P.S. Send me an email with the details! Ha Ha)




Lilly @ 9:52am
I know that any thread about Christianity is a good opportunity to bash President Bush, but
You act he's been some kind of bible-bashing evangelist. He hasn't. He was honest about his own faith when asked, but he wasn't the one that made it a burning issue. That would be you.

YOUR 4 POSITS:
"1) federal funds diverted to social service agencies that practice Christian conversion;"
SOME OF US HAVE THE SAME OBJECTION TO FUNDS DIVERTED TO PLANNED PARENTHOOD. A social service agency that practices killing.
Meanwhile, it's illegal to have a bible anywhere near a public school. Oh yes, President Bush is evil.

"2) unprecedented "Christian" control of medical research;"
PRESUMABLY REFERS TO STEM CELL RESEARCH: Let's be clear, stem cell research funding INCREASED under this administration. So you can just drop that one.

"3) presidential support of prejudice against homosexual citizens;"
PLEASE GIVE EXAMPLE OF ANY INSTANCE IN WHICH PRESIDENT BUSH HAS SUGGESTED SUCH A THING. If you don't have one, then drop this one too.

"4) widespread attempt to put evangelical belief into laws that would affect all, not just evangelicals, regarding public education, contraception, termination of pregnancy, and end-of-life."
PLEASE GIVE AN EXAMPLE. Are you referring to being against abortion? euthanizing? assisted suicide? Everyone has a position on these issues. His is pretty much the same as his party (ergo, he's evil for being a republican).
You've made it clear in many of your posts that you're okay with simply putting everyone who isn't perfect out of their misery, and that there are many people who'd be better of dead or unborn. Other of us are entitled to be less elitist. That has nothing to do with evangelism.

I'll tak a non-response from you as an admission that your post was disingenuous, dishonest, and reeking of BDS.

Createinme,
What statue was that? The Christus?
The Baptismal font is usually on the backs of, or surrounded by 12 Oxen, not bulls.
This is to symbolize the 12 Tribes of Israel.
As for the "temple underwear," We wear the garments to remind us of our vows to remain faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the promises we make to live a Christ-like life to the very best of our abilities.

BTW, you passed the test by saying you were in an "undedicated" temple since non-members can't go into one that's been dedicated.

Law around the world is like the big 10!
Take away Judeo-Christianity and you lose the American way of life, and our system of government--copying the Presbyterian rules of order, and/or Anglican rules--from England.

Take away Jesus from the world--or the promise of a coming Messiah from Judaism--and you have cannibalism, anti-feminism and the killing of female babies long before Planned parenthood thought of it as they 'planned' to kill poor black/colored babies to improve the culture in America...but check this out from their founder's many statements of the same.

Take away "created in God's image" and you have left the lies of satan, who decided to ascend to become god, himself...then death would've ruled the universe. But he got thrown out of heaven, and a lot of angels chose to leave with him, about 1/3 of the heavenly angels chose to follow the 'beautiful Lucifer' and got tossed to earth--this planet--ruled by the prince of the power of the air, except for those in whom Christ lives by His Spirit--they are ruled by Christ--check this out in the Bible.

Take away the Bible and you have lost not only standards that lift all cultures this best seller of all time, touches--but even today people around the risk their lives to get this 'living Word of God'. Christianity has made a good difference in me, in billions of others, and will continue to bring faith hope and love...and a choice. The choice is, "choose life or death and I recommend life that your soul may live..." see the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments are general law around the world...have you read the early codes? America was built as, "One nation under God--in God we Trust"...for good reason.

Anne: I don't know for sure
that they didn't understand the process, but from the questions I would say it is a pretty good bet. In December the Republicans held a nearby practice caucus and about 30 people attended. I'm not sure how many Republicans actually attended the Caucuses but there were about 500 for the 15 precincts at our location. There are roughly 50 precincts in the county. So, a good guess is that 30 of 1,000 people actually bothered to attend a session where it was all explained.

My biggest clue that most people didn't get it was that the attempt to figure out who attended was weak. I'm sure they didn't record everyone who participated in the process. However, all of the delegates were identified. People really worried about that, but hey it is a straw poll -- it only matters in the sense that it is something to give to the press.

My hunch is (don't know however) that Nevada agreed to do it this way so they could be an early primary state without the problems Michigan had. That is, it is March before we select who we support and not January.

The PaulBot patrol was there in force. What they said, which I found interesting, is that 3 of them had registered Dem previously but had switched to Repubs because of Paul. I, of course, don't know the veracity of that assertion but hey it is interesting. They were easy to spot as they were the younger ones and concerned (say amen) that they wouldn't get Social Security.

Anyone is welcome at my church....
To Hockey Mom...again:

What about the recent text, 1830, Book of Mormon, and what about no cross on these temples? What about living on a star with your family, posthumously...these things do not pass 'the test' of Holy Scripture. What about Joseph Smith, Jr, being 'told' that polygamy was right? Curious about the first amendment right of polygamists, taken away by the Supreme Court, too...talked about in Wikipdia? Freedom of speech is good...

Revelation warns about adding or detracting from God's own Word. The Word is the defense of Christians...see Ephesians 6.

I really like Orin Hatch better than Harry Reid or my fellow "Catholic" Mr. Kennedy. Being a denominational Christian, in name only is sort like a CINO... :)....Christian in name only, not gripped by God's love, forgiveness or lifestyle, ignoring the way of life demonstrated by Christ with us (for 33 years), and by many martyrs and sinners who were changed into saints by Christ's work in them, not by their own 'good' work.

This U.S. government of the people won't work it's been said, when there is no moral code, no love of God in the people--democracy will self-destruct when selfishness rules us. Are we close to being more selfish than selfless...how do you see it?

Jean marie
Wants to know if I am saved...

HMMMM,,, I am as saved as Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Barack OBAMA, John Edwards and any other democrat who happens to belong to a acceptable church (in phil's eyes).

As to Mitt being saved or not. Of course not, he's a mormon.
And lets not go vote for somebody that is not saved (even though thier policies are closer to ours than others).

Remember folks, when it comes to picking our presidents in this country you better make sure THEY are saved. Thus we can see the overwhelming support and love all of us can show for the SAVED preacher Huck. He is MORE saved than the others, Mccain, Thompson, Guiliani, Obama, Clinton, Edwards....

Thats right folks, we now have levels of being SAVED. Huck is A1 grade saved with no possible chance of unsaved and thus can do no wrong and can kill YOU and still be saved (now thats saved). Mccain, Thompson, Clinton, Obama, Edwards are all A3 grade saved with mostly good chances of being saved and thus must watch how they act because their apparent actions will determine thier saved worthyness. You CAN vote for these people but you may be wasting your vote on one that is not saved (so consider it carefully). B2 catagory Romney being a member of the mormon cult is NOT saved and voting for him will result in YOU not being saved either (unless you are a preacher in the A1 category and got drunk and voted for Romney by mistake, you are still saved in this case and just had a little to much to drink).

Soooo,,, there it is. Huck is saved for sure. Mccain, Thompson, Obama, Clinton, Edwards are most likely saved. Romney is not saved. Everybody please vote accordingly.

Remember,,, Phil wants you to vote on the level of being SAVED... I'm just clearing it up for ya.

Elko: Not surprised about the paulists!

Heard that before... and not a few times.

I'm NOT convinced that many of the paulists aren't "demo spoilers." No proof, of course, just wondering.

I heard a radio interview shortly after the NH primary... (I believe it was Beck's radio show) where someone from some small town in NH (of course, they're all pretty much small towns...) said that the cars in the parking lot was FULL of out of state tags.

And, being such a small town, he pretty much knew everyone who lived in the town, and the place was packed with strangers!

Apparently no one was checking for those who were NOT eligible to actually vote.




Anyone is welcome at my church....
To Hockey Mom...again:

What about the recent text, 1830, Book of Mormon, and what about no cross on these temples? What about living on a star with your family, posthumously...these things do not pass 'the test' of Holy Scripture. What about Joseph Smith, Jr, being 'told' that polygamy was right? Curious about the first amendment right of polygamists, taken away by the Supreme Court, too...talked about in Wikipdia? Freedom of speech is good...

Revelation warns about adding or detracting from God's own Word. The Word is the defense of Christians...see Ephesians 6.

I really like Orin Hatch better than Harry Reid or my fellow "Catholic" Mr. Kennedy. Being a denominational Christian, in name only is sort like a CINO... :)....Christian in name only, not gripped by God's love, forgiveness or lifestyle, ignoring the way of life demonstrated by Christ with us (for 33 years), and by many martyrs and sinners who were changed into saints by Christ's work in them, not by their own 'good' work.

This U.S. government of the people won't work it's been said, when there is no moral code, no love of God in the people--democracy will self-destruct when selfishness rules us. Are we close to being more selfish than selfless...how do you see it?

Lilly: More Christian sins outlawed
You forgot at least two Christian sins that the right-wing religious zealots have banned in the US from before the birth of our country: MURDER and THEFT!

How dare they impose their moral values on all of us broad-minded progressive people! Throw off the bonds of religious oppression NOW!

/sarcasm_mode=off

FYI, the Faith-Based Initiative BANS the spending of government funds on any activities like religious instruction or evangelism. The Faith-Based Initiative does not subsidize religion.

Mormonism is not Christian
but that doesn't mean I don't think they are nice people. They have bad and good people just like true Christianity. Christianity is defined by the tenets as previously posted. This is not the place to delve into the intracacies of the Trinity and why LDS belief is wrong; anyone interested in that can find the answers in any sytematic theology. My point is that the person Mormons call Christ is not the Christ of the Bible, neither is their God the God of the Bible. Mormons call any other Christian church "apostate," and claim the true faith was lost. So if Christians say it is the LDS that is apostate, we are labeled as bigots. My point is that both systems cannot be true because they contradict. Now, whether that matters to you for voting for President is up to you. But let's not let Romney get away with calling himself a Christian - he is a Mormon. Obama's church is also liberal and apostate by Biblical standards, Huckabee has his own unbiblical, aberrational ideas. Hillary has no clue what it means to be a Christian. It goes to character. Romney at least follows his faith, even if it is a false one.

If FOX is showing the current polls...

Obama 64%
Clinton 29%
Edwards 7%

Looks like Oblahma is kicking some clinton butt!



1830 is recent?
The Book of Mormon was first published in 1830. That's not recent in my world.

What about the lack of crosses? Is there a rule in Christianity that you must have a cross on your church buildings or temples?

We don't display a cross because it's a symbol of the death of Christ. In case you missed it he's a resurrected being, which makes him alive.
So why display the symbol of his death.
We know it happened, but he put that behind him. Why can't you?

We're not out to pass any "tests of Christianity, or Holy Scripture." and the BoM does not replace the Bible. It's supplements, or adds to it.

And as to your comment that "Anyone is welcome at my church," So is it the policy of our CHURCHES. It says "Visitors Welcome" right on the front of each of our churches.

The Temples are a different matter. Only members who live a worthy life are allowed to enter them. Even some of our members can't go in because they don't do the things necessary to be able to. That's just the way it is and if they want to get in they know how to fix it.

You don't have a clue
Bluepiper you're an idiot. From what you just posted it's clear that you don't have a clue about our church.
But you're too ignorant to be worth the time it would take for me to show you how you're wrong.

So I'll just write you off as the fool your post shows you to be.

Anne, I like that poll
But I still don't trust them. Is that actual results or are they just saying what they think the results will be?

ANY poll that shows Hillary getting beat is good for me.

Bluepiper
How can you suggest people vote for a candidate that is not guaranteed to be saved like Huckabee? Why run the risk of voting for any of the others who may or may not be saved? And further to leave people the impression to not view being SAVED as important and thus vote on the issues and end up with ROMNEY,,,, how can you say that?

If he is not a christian and not saved (not a chance vs. the others) then how can anybody vote for him?

Please folks, fellow christians, lets follow PHILS advice in this article and vote on who is most likely saved. Huckabee is a lock, Mccain, Thompson, Obama, Clinton, Edwards are iffy, and Romney is not.

It's all about being saved.

Hockey Mom: Useless discussion!

Some people have their minds made up... and no amount of discussion or debate is going to make them see anything differently from what they want to believe.

Sounds exactly like attempted previous discussions with our resident Christian and Bible expert... Talent Scout...




Anne, you're right
But I just can't stand to see such ignorance being spouted about the church. I guess my whole family is that way.
But I'm not going to try to show these fools how they're wrong. It is pointless to try, just as you said.

Saved? Ask God. Many have LIFE--Christs!
Interestingly the POWs like John Mc Cain remembered scripture and shared it by tapping a code to one another, and by repeating hymns...and at Christmas singing together, I've read. Their songs reverberated through the walls, and gave hope to those so isolated from any one but the LIVING GOD Who came to sustain them, and open their prison doors, eventually--six+ years for McCain.

Not all came home to America...some went home to 'heaven'...saved by the bridge of the cross, entering heaven, forgiven and loved by the Lion of the Tribe of Judah...Jesus, Emanuel, God with us...a good MAN, A GOD MAN, DETERMINED TO GIVE LIFE TO THOSE WHO ASK. Saved?...Placed by Christ, into the strong hand of God the Father, gripped--He has lost not one person given to Him...except Judas...'the son of perdition', that the scripture prophesied and documented as 'prophecy fulfilled' would be fulfilled. Not one of His Words will return to Him as being ineffective...all of His Words live to benefit and protect LIFE...a forever kind of gift available to anyone who ASKS.

At any rate
I need to get back to my work so I'll talk to you all later.

Have a good one.

Hockey Mom: You're right about the polls

I don't put much stock in them, except they usually do show a trend. :-)

Last poll in SC showed Romney 1 point ahead of Thompson.. :-)


This is going to be good.....



scooter...whom would throw no rope...
to anyone not already saved.

Not exactly a Christian philosophy in MY book :)

Hockey Mom
I am an ex-Mormon who has studied the LDS for 30 years after leaving the church. I have a library full of LDS publications all the way back to the original BOM, original Book of Commandments, etc. I am not ignorant of the LDS, and probably know more about it than most Mormons because they don't delve into their own history! At any rate, I am not suggesting to vote for Romney, I was just making a point with my last post that at least Romney lives his faith. Huckabee has a lot of problems even understanding his faith, which is demonstrated by his lack of discernment by his association with Bill Gothard, who is rife with aberrational and even heretical teachings. If we are going to make Christianity the litmus test for our politicians, then we have to determine who is practicing the most pure version, which none of them are! So let's instead look at their politics and see who has the best for the country at stake, and not who is pandering to special interest groups, and who will not make our government a total nanny. Get the gov't out of my life!

Name calling often stops discussions....
Idiots, fools, loonies, wackos, crazies...and worse are not words that promote respectful discussion...usually indicative of no more evidence to share, and an unteachableness or fear of education. Fearing truth is troubling...not that any of us knows all truth, but we have our own experience, scientific truths, and biblical truth...and Jesus Who called Himself...The Way, The Truth and The LIFE...life He came to share with those who ASK. :)...I did!

Racist call against Obama

Is this from Hillary or her supporters? Will this work?

Robocall trashes “Barack Hussein Obama”

Politico-The Obama campaign has released a recording (mp3) it says came from a Nevadan’s answering machine of an anonymous robocall that criticizes Obama for taking money from special interests while repeating, four times, his rarely used middle name: “Hussein.”

“I’m calling with some important information about Barack Hussein Obama,” the call begins, before saying that “Barack Hussein Obama says he doesn’t take money from Washington lobbyists or special interest groups but the record is clear that he does.”

After mentioning his full name once more, the call concludes:

“You just can’t take a chance on Barack Hussein Obama.”

Click here to listen to the campaign’s recording of the call.

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/racist-call-agains t-obama


Ron
In phil's article he proclaims Romneys Mormonism is a cult. He is equating voting on the presidency as to voting on someone's religion (thus don't vote for the cult). He also goes on to disagree with OBAMA's church but stops short of his cult statement (this don't vote for OBAMA but he is still better than the cult).

Now Ron,,, in Phils eyes it is better to vote for OBAMA whose church he does not see eye to eye with than to vote for ROMNEY who is a member of a cult.

Think about it,,,, it's all levels of being SAVED to PHIL. Obama is possibly saved while Romney is not.

Now Mccain, Thompson, Clinton, Edwards are all christians in phils eyes but Romney is not and thus they should have a better chance of being saved then Romney. Thus vote for them over Romney.

The trump card in all of this is Huckabee. No True baptist can deny that his being SAVED is a LOCK. No matter how many criminals he frees (to kill again). Thus VOTE for Huckabee (even though he does not have to say it).

As for me,,,,, I enjoy ridiculing the basis for biggoted writers (such as phil) and bringing this to the attention of folks. Considering i'm leaning towards Guiliani means (in phils world) I won't be saved.

It's all about levels of being saved or not saved. And huckabee is #1 and Romney is #1million (even behind that DUMOND character Huck gave clemency to in Jail and then killed again, at least he came to christ and became a BORN AGAIN)

CIMJ whom asks yet tells...?
of names some call in debate in their fells.
Those of who dispute in defense.
Would say YOUR names, while honest, may well cause offense.
I myself find that names draw us by...
to focus on those whom do draw us nigh...
Then live or die by the thoughts they provide
:)

Hitchhiker
You Wrote:
...It has been my experience that many so called christian demoninations preach that we are saved by acknowledging Jesus as our Saviour and nothing else matters. That would be pretty darn simple if true...


Which is exactly what Mr. Harris was talking about, when he said this:

"It is an uncomplicated, but difficult concept to grasp..."


Pretty darn simple... but completely accurate. And in fact, the "nothing else matters" is true, so far as finding your salvation. Your works will be evidence of your faith in Jesus Christ, if you are sincere in your belief.



scooter, thanks for the rope..now
Pull me in...
Huckaby?...Not!... saved by false words to gain, has lost his cred in faith that he claims.
While Guiliani and friends have none to propose...
My faith...NOT religion...Is to whom my vote goes :)




Good ron
now tell us who your faith (not religion) is leading YOU to vote for?

Re Barack's church
To anyone who thinks that Barack's church took down from its web site those sentiments that may have seemed racist or offensive -- check again.

I didn't say the guy was a Muslim, despite Lilly's (typically) silly post. I said his church obviously holds it first allegance to Africa. It's very clear from their Web site. There is no mention, silly Lilly, of their loving whites. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. What they DO mention again and again is their dedication to Africa.

And my position remains -- Barack cannot be helped by his support for this type of "Christian" church. This has nothing to do with Lilly's silly post about post-60s and straight hair vs Afros. This has to do with a man who belongs to a church which clearly pledges support and concern and dedication to African. If any church in American came out with the sentiments of the same strength, but aimed for and about and toward whites, the media (to say nothing of Lilly) would be in an uproar.

Do I think Barack's church is racist? You bet I do.

Anne
Rush had a caller just before Christmas I believe. The man was a member of the N.H. Assembly and he told Rush that N.H. has a law which he was attempting to change that allows
anyone to go into a polling place and vote simply by stating they are planning (or want ) to move there. Which would explain all the out of state cars showing up, and then Hillary winning. And I'd bet a good many of them bore
the license plates of my native state, which
create in me mentioned..MA. Rats! I always wanted to move there, now I'm too far away. Ya
think maybe McCain got his win the same way? We know the MSM and DemonRats would love nothing better than have a fellow traveler for our nominee.

scooter
Thought it obvious...ROMNEY :)

Tea Party: I wouldn't be surprised if

both McCain and Hellary won because of that...

I'm just more and more amazed at some of the laws...

I just found out today that in Nevada, for example, that none of the delegates chosen is bound to any candidate so any of the representatives may cast a vote as they see fit at the Nevada Republican Convention.

Consequently, today was nothing more than a straw poll in Nevada...



Arby
I think the same thing, and I'm not comfortable with the thought that this young empty suit, refuses to salute the flag, or wear it on his lapel. It may seem like nitpicking, but the Bible does say by their fruits you shall know them. He sent a loud message by this refusal, it would be one thing if he weren't auditioning to become CiC, but he wants the job. Why would we hire someone whose church honors the likes of Farakahn. The fact that he didn't leave the church speaks volumes about his character. Winston Churchill was half American, but he gave his loyalty to Britain, where would Obama's loyalties lie? As for Hil's loyalties, calling Karl Marx!
As for fellow Christians questioning Mitt's mormonism and how it relates to the W.H., did he
push his religion on the citizens of my home state? I think we can get a good idea of how he would govern by looking at how he governed MA.
I don't recall my sister telling me he tried to convert the State House into an undedicated temple. for goodness sakes, Kennedy has turned
a lot of places into temples of aphrodite and lest we forget, our first black President did a good job making the Oval Office Aprodite's main altar. Character matters more now than ever.

Scooter
writes, "Soooo,,, there it is. Huck is saved for sure. Mccain, Thompson, Obama, Clinton, Edwards are most likely saved. Romney is not saved. Everybody please vote accordingly.

Remember,,, Phil wants you to vote on the level of being SAVED... I'm just clearing it up for ya. "

Excellent post but, I am still confused. You made it so simple compared to Phil but, I do not easily fit into a category. You see I was baptized and saved (I think) when I was young but then I converted to another religion and was baptised and saved again. Does the one cancel out the other or does the first override the second. I visited lots of my friends different demoninations when younger and was often questioned about my beliefs. Although it was generally accepted that I was indeed saved by my responses and thus did not require resaving, I am not sure anymore.

Quarum
Copying the whole thing so it makes more sense to anyone else.

Hitchhiker
You Wrote:
...It has been my experience that many so called christian demoninations preach that we are saved by acknowledging Jesus as our Saviour and nothing else matters. That would be pretty darn simple if true...


Which is exactly what Mr. Harris was talking about, when he said this:

"It is an uncomplicated, but difficult concept to grasp..."


Pretty darn simple... but completely accurate. And in fact, the "nothing else matters" is true, so far as finding your salvation. Your works will be evidence of your faith in Jesus Christ, if you are sincere in your belief
-----------------------------------------
Okay. Do you agree with Mr. Harris's premise that we can easily know who has been thus saved and who has not simply by their religion. Which ones are included in your list of approved providers.

It is true that followers of christ do good works if they are faithful. That is how we can tell believers from talkers. Phil says we can tell by what particular demonination one belongs to rather than using the biblical method.

hitchhiker
I hear your confusion.

Lets apply Phils problem solving for an answer.
1. If you joined or were baptized into the mormon faith LAST then you are not saved.
2. If you joined or were baptized LAST into a pseudo conservative group like the methodists, catholics, etc then you might be saved.
3. If you joined or were baptized LAST into an evangelical southern baptist congregation then you are MOST probably saved.
4. If you gave large amounts of $ to either Huck as a preacher or as a politician then you are absolutly saved. (absolutly)

Thus we can see the different levels of being saved, with the mormons (cults) at the bottom and the evangelical preachers (with some good christian $) at the top.

It all comes down to if you are currently IN with HUCKS evangelical interpretation and willing to part with some of your $. Thats how you get saved.

In conclusion, i'm quite sure PHIL would agree that if you did happen to belong to another faith other than the HUCKABEE faith (not mormons of course). Phil would agree that to vote for and donate large amounts of $ for the Huckabee cause will be viewed very favorably with JESUS.

Silly don't you think, you really CAN buy happiness and sell your soul in 1 fell swoop.

Quarum
For the record, I do believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I believe it is required as the ticket to the ball, I believe admittance to the ball will further depend on how well I adhere to said gospel and that in appropriate circumstances my ticket may be revoked and admittance denied. I take the name of Christ upon myself as the bible says, thus I call myself a Christian and I do not need Dr. Phil's personal stamp on my passport.

Occassionaly my writing may seem agnostic because I love poking holes in holier than thou attitudes but, I also post much religious stuff as anyone who is a regular knows although I haven't been around much for a while until lately

Hitchhiker
Where in the article do you see anything about a "denomination" test. The author is telling us to test the Words of the Candidates, to see if they are simply pandering, or if they really are who they claim to be.

The article also takes pains to point out that an "Evangelical" is not a demomination, but describes the relationship of individuals to Christ.

Romney is claiming to be a Christian, as do all mormans, but he to the best of my knowledge is not claiming to be of the same belief as what is known as a born-again/evangelical Christian.

Obama's claims need to be examined, especially with his reverence for the blessed abortionist, and his church holds racial views which may fly in the face of trying to achieve Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream.

Having a President who believes that it is best to identify black families as black families, rather than to strive for the day when America is filled with... (gasp) Families, does not fill my heart with warm fuzzy hopefull feelings.

The article does not lay a test out to see if a candidate is "saved". It tells us to look for the honesty and credibility in the candidate, especially if "evangelical" world-views are important to you.

If not, then from a faith perspective, it isn't going to matter to you one way or the other now is it. You could vote for Larry Flint and sleep very well at night, where I could not.

.

So prove you worship the true Yahweh
Just to show you the fallacy of your religion. I, like Thomas Jefferson, reject the Platonistic Trinity that was inculcated into Christianity long after Christ was on the Earth. Now I defy you to show me the word Trinity in the King James or earlier versions of the Bible. That book is inerrant and if the word Trinity is not in there, then it is a man made doctrine. Go ahead and give me chapter and verse for the word Trinity. I will even accept it in Greek. Possibly you are not a Christian since you adhere to a doctrine of man made origin??? By the way Jefferson cut out the red letter words of Christ and pasted into a book and used them to live by. This is a man who studied the Bible in Hebrew and Greek as well. He too claimed to be a Christian, but since he focused on the “words of Christ”, I am sure he is disqualified by you as well.

See it is much easier to attack than to build.

Scooter
Thanks a lot for clearing that up.

Based on this and other discussions, I am thinking about going with my first choice politically and faithfully as Romney, then perhaps I can contribute a few bucks to Hucks campaign and thus be listed as saved in his and Phil's list also.

Do I believe in my heart and God through his holy spirit or do I put my faith in earthly gods such as Huck or Phil. Tough call. Not.

Quarum
writes, "Where in the article do you see anything about a "denomination" test. The author is telling us to test the Words of the Candidates, to see if they are simply pandering, or if they really are who they claim to be."

Simple, he claims to know for a fact that the mormon denomination of christianity is not approved by whoever, him or Huck, I presume. I suggest you look at their actions and compare them to their words. If there are discrepencies, beware the wolf in sheeps clothing.

Quarum writes, "The article also takes pains to point out that an "Evangelical" is not a demomination, but describes the relationship of individuals to Christ"

Okay, so you are saying you can tell someone's relationship to Christ by what church they attend?

Hitchhiker better sit for a while...
Because if you give $ to Huck, I will pray for your athletes foot fungus to return...
but just for a little while :)

Ron
Ouch! :) I was planning on stopping payment after I got my name in the big book. I figured nobody would notice one little returned check in all the hubub.


Joke
I suppose in may fall on deaf 'eyeballs' to suggest, that the big hoot you seem to get about the issue of your salvation, (as if duh), it is up to you to decide how you are going to get to stand before Almighty God's judgment... may suggest that you should give it some serious thought.

I am assured of salvation, and I don't have to wonder, worry, or fret. If my end comes ten minutes from now, I am without fear. This assurance is by God's design and is fully shared in the Scriptures.

If you cannot make the same statement, then you should mark these words as a wake up call, and get it figured out. No degree in theology required, and it makes no difference to me how you end up, other than a sincere hope for you.

No one needs your "$" either, although Scooter seems to be particularly enamoured with his.

Joke? No kidding!
Can you believe the arrogance of this Quarum?

Hilarious! (And credulous.)

Attack of the Soul Eaters!
What a stunning name for a movie! Love it!

(BTW, you remember the furore over The Golden Compass? It was released here, to my great amusement, the day after xmas. Still gets the longest review in the weekend magazine.)

But better still is this sentiment: "Not only will we not seek the EvangeloFascist vote, we will bury it. We will smother it before it can grow any more arms and legs, and before it can take over the minds and hearts of Americans the way the Taliban tried to take over Afghanistan."

Please! Then we can move the party away from these extremists and take over the hilltops of fiscal responsibility. It would be a battle, but the tax-and-spend democrats can be defeated. *IF* we ditch the insane social policies of the fascists.

Very good, higene.

Contrasts - Clear for all to see
The evidence is laid bare for all to see, in simply contrasting my words (a sincere hope for you) versus, the gremlinish venom you direct my way.


Quarum
We are a lot more alike than you think, my brother. Go back up and read my post that hit just before one of yours. I think you may have missed it.(11:53)

The point I am trying to make is that Huck's, Phil's, and your brand of christianity seems rather exclusionary in practice. Is this what Jesus would do? What do you suppose his advice would be to those seeking his guidance?

You state you are without fear. I am glad. Did you need Phil's approval to feel this way? I am not making fun. I am trying to make the point you already know that it is the personal relationship with Christ that is important and no man can absolutly know another man's relationship based on exterior factors such as what church you were brought up in or what friggin demonination a person belongs to. Unless, you have spoken to God personally and been thus informed, then the only way to judge another's faith is by the life they have led and the works they have performed.

We have already seen one break in the people of Abraham when those at the time of Christ refused to accept new information. Nope, the book is closed. We do not need any more scripture. They shot the messenger when the messenger was the almighty. The Jewish people refused any additional scripture the same way you, Huck, and Phil refuse to concede even the possiblility that more scripture is here or that more is coming. If Jesus came back tomorrow, are you sure you would know him or would you depend on your pastor to decide his legitimacy and accept his pronouncement rather than making up your own mind.

quarum
It is good to hear you are saved. Do you think you and HUCK (he's obviously more saved than you) could spare some of your SAVINGS and help a brother out?
I'm not so sure about myself as I personally have not had JESUS come and tell me i'm saved, but i'm WORKING AT IT (get it, working at it).

If you and Huck are already saved is there ANYTHING you can NOW do that would make you unsaved? How about Huck pardoning murderers who kill again? Jesus must be one merciful saviour to be able to oversee that would'nt he?

If I don't think Huck has the best policies of a conservative (think i'm one) and I end up voting for someone who has not been saved like Romney or Thompson (Mccain's not conservative either). Will this help or hurt my being saved? You do know PHIL thinks it will. I want to know if you also believe it does?

Again,,,, congratulations on your wonderful accomplishment (i'm sure you've WORKED very hard) of being saved. I'm very happy for you.

scooter
Pretty much Denying the Deity of Jesus or similar Mormon doctrine will be sufficient for loss of salvation.

seeker...
Did not think my comments were denying the fact that Jesus is the Savior and the SON OF GOD,,, but if you say so..

As to your comments about Mormon doctine on what I've said... WELL

Considering your comments I might assume you are a died in the wool HARE KRISHNA. (kinda looks that way when you don't agree that Jesus is the SAVIOR and the SON OF GOD)

But alas,,, if you are not a KRISHNA and consider yourself a Christian then I get this feeling that you also think you are SAVED (like quarum and others).

Thats GREAT,,,, now my questions above to Quarum are equally valid for you. (maybe more so as now you 2 and Huck can all PULL your SAVINGS together to save me, thats a lot of savings)

Sadly, I'm getting the impression that the christians who are saved are in no way going to SHARE thier SAVINGS. SIGH..... guess I'll just have to keep WORKING at mine. Hopefully with faith, thruogh the GRACE of JESUS, he will be able to REDEEM such a twisted soul as mine. (here's to hopeing)

PS,,, will it help if i vote for HUCK?


This Article is
trying to accomplish the very fault that it accuses others of. That is, exploiting the Gospel of God.

Christ's litmus test for Christians
From my Red Letter edition King James Bible

John 13:34-35
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I apologize for some of my fellow Christians who are judging who are Christian and who are not. That judgment is really reserved to our Lord and Savior. Now if Jesus Christ accepts you as his disciples (read Christians), far be it for any man to exclude anyone, whether Mormon, Nazarene, Methodist, Baptist, etc.

As a wise man once said, "I would rather see a sermon than hear one anytime". I have seen a lot of great sermons by people of various brands of Christianity including Mormons.

rayfinn
careful ray,,, there are many out there that view your comments as heretical and will insinuate you are damned, going to hell, or not saved.

Like Phil Harris.

scooter
Thanks for the warning/advice. I will leave that judgment to Christ Jesus as well. I am not afraid of the Phil Hariss's of the world. Last I looked he was just a man.


Heb. 13: 6
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


Ps. 118: 6
6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

Bluepiper a challenge
Just to show you the fallacy of your religion. I, like Thomas Jefferson, reject the Platonistic Trinity that was inculcated into Christianity long after Christ was on the Earth. Now I defy you to show me the word Trinity in the King James or earlier versions of the Bible. That book is inerrant and if the word Trinity is not in there, then it is a man made doctrine. Go ahead and give me chapter and verse for the word Trinity. I will even accept it in Greek. Possibly you are not a Christian since you adhere to a doctrine of man made origin??? By the way Jefferson cut out the red letter words of Christ and pasted into a book and used them to live by. This is a man who studied the Bible in Hebrew and Greek as well. He too claimed to be a Christian, but since he focused on the “words of Christ”, I am sure he is disqualified by you as well.

See it is much easier to attack than to build.

P.S. If the Mormons reject the Trinity and the pagan Easter eggs and such they may be more like the early church of Christ than you. So, Bluepiper are you up to the task?

Yikes
[JimP writes: This Article is trying to accomplish the very fault that it accuses others of. That is, exploiting the Gospel of God.]

As far as I can see, the article isn't accusing anyone of anything, other than failing to understand what "Evangelicals" means.

[Scooter Writes: …there are many out there that view your comments as heretical and will insinuate you are damned, going to hell, or not saved. Like Phil Harris.]

Again... as far as I can see, the article isn't accusing anyone of doing anything, isn't condemning anyone, but laying out who the Evangelical Vote really is.

Where did Harris get such a crazy idea, that he knows where he is going?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.- Ephesians 2:8,9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;- Titus 3:5

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.- I John 5:13

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.- Romans 10:9,10

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.- Romans 10:13

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.- John 3:6,7

AMAZING.. ISN'T IT?

yellowsomething
Phil wants YOU to base your vote on who is saved and who is not.
He insinuates Obama may or may not be saved based on his churches preoccupation with Blacks and africa.
He says CLINTON and GUILIANI may come to the EVANGELICAL church (hopeing for your vote) but that YOU should pay them no more attention than Romney the mormon cultist. (apparently my earlier thoughts on clinton and guiliani bieng MAYBE saved, should have been a NO)

However he still leaves no doubt how he feels about Romney being saved. To compare Clinton and Guiliani as closer to being saved than the cultist is quite telling.

Simple,,,, according to PHIL vote for the candidate who is saved. Huckabee is the runaway with that one. I'll bet he has SAVED every gift that every lobbyist purchased for him in the wedding registry he set up. (being saved already, means he can do these sleazy things and not have to WORK his way back into heaven)

Amazing.. isn't it? UMMMM, yeah it really is.

Scooter
Your attitudes and rhetoric about Salvation through Jesus Christ, the Son part of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...

...reaffirms what I have been reading about your Mormon beliefs. You obviously have no REAL sanctity in your heart for the Risen Savior, and the sacrifice that only He could make for the salvation of mankind.

Keep it up, and there will be no need for anyone else to disparage your faith. You are doing a magnificient job on your own.



Lily - diverting funds
What service programs are you talking about that are receiving diverted funds for evangelism?

I know a couple of local evangelical agencies that received faith-based funds back maybe 5 or 6 years ago. The Rescue Mission, which was started by a consortium of local churches, received a federal grant to help it move into a larger space. Yes, they do reach out evangelically to the people staying there. Nobody is forced to believe and belief is not a requirement for staying there. Listening to the programming is. They've kept statistics over the years. The people who become Christians generally get off the streets and stay off the streets while those who don't usually seem to wind up dead. So, what is your objection to the federal government using my tax dollars to improve an effective social services program?

Our local food bank, also started by a consortium of local churches, was up for a faith-based grant, but the last I heard, they turned it down because the feds wanted them to forbid the inclusion of faith literature in food boxes and the discussion of faith by food distribution workers. Since the food bank's primary work is done by local churches, who are involved in food ministry because they use it for evangelism, the food bank turned down the grant, which would have paid to purchase a newer truck to deliver food boxes with. Again, why would you object to my tax dollars being used to feed poor people? Because this ministry is also used to evangelize? Again, statistics show that those who become involved in their support churches on a regular basis are much less likely to need ongoing food distribution.

Maybe you just object to social service programs that work because they deal with the issues at the root of the problem rather than just sticking a bandaid on it.

Oh, just in addition
There are no secular alternatives to the Rescue Mission and Food Bank in my community. No secular group has ever been willing to establish alternatives. Both were started as ministries of churches that outgrew their sponsorship and sought aid from other churches. They are now independent organizations, supported by local churches. Yes, they are religiously based. And, over the years, they've proven that it is the faith message that turns people's lives around. In seeking federal funding, they were not seeking help in evangelizing their target group, but in providing services like food and housing to their target group. Evangelism has always and will probably continue to be paid for by the sponsoring churches. However, the "faith-based" federal program has a lot of strings attached that often result in faith-based organizations having to become secular because they have accepted federal funds. How it this helping anyone? To give someone food or a place to stay and not tell them that there are solutions to the underlying causes of their homelessness and poverty -- that makes no sense to me. And, again, I'll note that evangelicals pay taxes too. Why should our money continue to be diverted to secular social service organization that remain revolving doors when we know there are faith-based programs available that are helping people overcome their need for social services?

Of course, to the Lilys of this world, what matters is not improved lives, but that we maintain a mythical seperate of church and state even if it kills people.

Yellowsnow
I think your comments on the godhead should be grade A example of CONFUSION in the dictionary.
"your attitudes and rhetoric about salvation through Jesus Christ, the son part of god the father, son, and holy spirit..."

Now please,,, just refer to it as the TRINITY. Reading your description of exactly WHAT it is, is almost as bad as the one the EMPEROR CONSTANTINE gave us about 400 AD (and thats pretty bad). But I do know the gist of the TRINITY and that is what YOU should refer to instead of confusing yourself.

Regarding the lack of sactity I am suppossed to have regarding the SAVIOR and just who is and who is not SAVED by his atoneing sacrifice... HMMMM

Sounds like you don't have an answer to any of my questions about being saved. I've asked a lot of them regarding Huckabee, Romney, Clinton, Thompson, Obama, Mccain, etc, etc....
I have asked each of these questions in connection with WHO we should vote for.

The questions I am asking are no different than the statements the nitwit PHIL HARRIS is making. Hopefully when YOU and HE realize the dead end politics of voting by religion then I won't need to ask these questions. If people were able (the overwhelming majority are) to distinguish between thier preacher on sunday and thier politician on a vote (the same politician with thier values) then displaying the END GAME as I am doing would not be necessary (like i said most folks don't need this).

That being said,,,, there are a large % of folks that vote only on religion... Thus the example of the end game I display.

This narrow individual (voting by religion) does not only have to be an EVANGELICAL,,, it can and most likely is,,, Catholics, Jews, Methodists, JW's, Lutherans, Mormons, Muslims, and most certainly Athiests.....
When misguided individuals act the same way in these other groups as the example of PHIL here then I will most diligently explain the END GAME to them as well....
Too daaa looo and god bless

Phill:
Your words cut like a sword, and I commend you for having the courage to say them.

You must have done some praying before writing this article, as it rings with truth. You will surely be sorely criticized for it, but I'm sure you know what Jesus said about that too, so keep up the Good Word.

almanojodo
"Have you not heard of the SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?"

Yes. I've heard of it. From the constitution of the former COMMUNIST STATE the USSR:

ARTICLE 142: "Breach of laws governing the separation of church from state and of education from the church: Any breach of the laws governing the separation of the church from the state and of education from the church is punishable by corrective labor for a maximum term of one year or a fine of 50 rubles."

No where in America's constitution does the term "seperation of church and state" exist. It is also not found in any of the founding father's documents. It is a communist notion that has been sold to unsuspecting Americans who do not know history and listen to socialists.

aurora/MSederoff
Aurorawatcher: You do well to point out the lack of secular alternatives to some of the programs that REALLY get aid to people in need (without skimming alot of it off the top for themselves).
I do wonder at the Silly's of this world. In her case, methinks her less concerned about the actual people in need than she is about bushbashing. I think she only uses separation of church and state as a cover argument.
I daresay if her hero president clinton had proposed like programs, it would have been a wonderful thing.

As for the separation of church and state issue, as MSEDEROFF brilliantly points out, those words aren't in the constitution.
Seems to me, those who raise that argument are guilty of yet another perversion of constitutional intent.

Right on, Phil
This article is right on. As Christians, we must test candidates by the word of God - nothing else.

Romney's satan worshipping cult will do more to destroy the Reagan coalition than Hilary could ever hope to do. Millions of true Christians will never vote for a cultist that will lead millions to hell. I hope Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity come to their sense and quit pushing satan. They both claim to be Christian, but they are definitely not following Jesus by supporting satan.

Listen to this speech...

http://www.townhall.com/video/Campaign08/1450_020908Huck
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