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Sunday, May 06, 2007
Phil Harris :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Vast Left-Wing Culture of Death
by Phil Harris
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Christians are often confronted with a question that is hard to answer. It is a difficult question, not because it challenges our faith in Jesus Christ; that he sealed a new Covenant with God by taking on the sins of the world, but because of our genuine desire that all should find redemption, and be justified when it is their time to stand before God.

In fact, that is our charge given by Jesus himself just prior to his ascension. Mark 16:15 tells us, “He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.” As an aside, I might take this opportunity to point out that Jesus did not tell his followers to kill the infidels if they refuse to believe, as some “peaceful” religions are known to do.

Nevertheless, we know that in John 14:6, “Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” This seems to be an ominous declaration, but tempered by God’s assurance. John 3:16 says, “God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son; that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.

So you see that the question Christians are often confounded with is, “Well, what about the people in the far corners of the Earth, who have never heard of Jesus?” This makes us take a deep breath and ponder, because we do not want to believe that God would just leave people out, through no fault of their own.

This troubles us, even though we can step back and understand that God cannot be judged as we might judge people. After all, God created all that there is. He owns everything, including every creature human or otherwise that ever existed. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Nothing exists outside of God. To try to judge God on some human threshold is like being fit to be tied because we are forced to breathe air.

There is another angle to this; however, I am not well enough educated in the Scriptures to declare this as the Gospel Truth, though it seems reasonable. You should read the entire article at the following link, but in a nutshell, it is saying that God’s law is written on everyone’s heart (the conscience if you will).

The Scriptures seem to indicate that judgment will be harsher for those who have heard the truth, but choose to turn away from it. In other words, those who know of Jesus, but refuse to believe. Those who have never heard of Jesus or of any of God’s written law (as the Jews have had) still have that natural law of good and evil written in their hearts. Those who choose evil, while knowing the good, shall be judged just as harshly.

What About the Person Who Never Heard of Jesus?

As is customary for my columns, the title appears to have little, if anything, to do with my discussion so far; therefore, I will proceed to my ultimate destination. The Vast Left-Wing Culture of Death violates this innate knowledge of Good and evil, that exists in every human who ever lived.

The real problem with the debate about abortion is that those who have a vested interest in having abortion continue unhindered (for whatever reason), have been allowed to frame the nature of life before the moment of birth. The natural inclination of the human mind, or that innate sense of God’s law that is written in the hearts of all, would be to assume that if a living human baby comes out of its mother’s body, it was likely a living human baby for its entire existence.

Unfortunately, pro-abortion advocates have been successful in casting doubt on what it is that is inside a woman's womb. The absurdity of this condition is that people are now confused, and have been led to doubt that innate knowledge of good and evil. Many have some mystical notion, that a prenatal child is something akin to Jack’s magic beans; that at some unknown moment in time, poof… a blob of tissue becomes a human being.

Here we can clearly see the great lie that springs from those who have chosen evil over good. The content of a woman’s uterus has never been a magic bean. It has never been a puppy, a kitten, not even a gerbil. At conception, when the genetic materials from two human beings combine, a third human life is ignited.

That life may burn for only a day or it may burn for 100 years. Regardless of how long it lasts, it is a human life, nevertheless. This truth is naturally understood by every person regardless of his or her religious convictions, knowledge or ignorance of God or of the Good News of Jesus Christ.

A man or woman ignorant of the existence of the modern world, because they live in some prehistoric, undiscovered jungle, still has this knowledge ingrained in their being; perhaps, the result of that forbidden fruit, devoured in the Garden of Eden despite God’s warning not to do so; the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

There is a strong force at play, working tirelessly to evil’s ends. The Vast Left-Wing Culture of Death wants nothing less than to convince you that abortion is not death, but is really a means to extend life. That message is just as absurd and deceitful as was the lie told by the serpent to the woman in the Garden.

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About The Author

Phil Harris is a software engineer, author of Cry for the Shadows and blogs at Citizen Phil.

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Dear Daddyhill
RE: Your death-soaked post of Sunday, May, 06, 2007 11:09 PM. Reads like a liberal rationalization of the axioms underlying the left's culture of death, does it not? All you did was prove that life is temporary, which we all knew anyway. The point of the Culture of Life is to make this admittedly temporary life as secure as possible so any given individual can freely enjoy it as long as possible.

My point? In terms of justifying your ideology, an old slogan now applies: try, try again! Y'all come back now, ya hear!

In response to HAC5X3
Jesus did not address politics much, and the issue of how a voting public votes is a political one, though one grounded in person ethical or moral ideals.

Many Christians are convinced abortion is the wrongful death of a human being (a position with which I am in agreement).

If asked an opinion, if asked to vote on the subject, those Christians are *obligated* to speak or vote as their conscience dictates; exactly as you and all other responsible persons do. That is how our *secular* government works.

If you think only those who agree with a particular view should have the right to speak and vote their consciences, then you have a serious problem with democratic principles.

Let us not be cherrypickers: nonChristians attempt to force certain behavioral limitations on others, as well. Certain environmental laws fit that description. Limitations on firearms purchases do, as well. Seatbelt laws are another example. If you TRULY think people should be 'permitted to make their own decisions', then you undoubtedly favor absolutely minimal governmental regulation of citizens' actions in ALL spheres, right?

Indeed, I believe one phrase of your post is most revealing. You wrote "and not having those choices imposed upon us by the like of conservatives".
In fact, I strongly suspect that you, like most progressive/liberals, strongly favor limitations on individual choice, as long as the limitations are imposed by Liberals, rather than by Conservatives. You take issue not with the Principle, but rather with who should have the right to Control others.

CONSERVATIVE INFLICTION OF CHOICE
I think Jesus would have said that it's not your place to tell us what you think and that we should be permitted an opportunity to make our own decisions with regard to how we behave and that only in making those choices (and not having those choices imposed upon us by the like of conservatives) are we truly able to achieve perfection in morality. Conservatives would like to impose morality and I think that there is no moral argument for such a thing in the context of someone's soul and it's achievements.

DA - May, 06, 2007 10:15 AM
DA
>>>
I am going chapter and verse. I will, eventually, arrive at the new testament.
>>>

Make sure you read the verses between the 'cherry picked' verses for your posts too. Otherwise you might miss some really good stuff.

But, hey, I'm all for everyone reading Scripture what ever the motivation. Sometimes some of it penetrates too.

DA - May, 06, 2007 8:04 PM
>>>
Birdman
Here is your god. I just watched where he destroyed 95% of the town of Greenburg with a tornado, including churches.

--Do you resent that God would kill wicked and evil men?--

I answered your question. I resent that he would kill babies, animals, elderly and women. If you don't; then your morals are pitiful.
>>>

I did not ask if you resented that God would kill "babies, animals, elderly and women". You answered a question of your own choice. That is what politicians do to dance around an issue. Does your answer mean that you think He should NOT be allowed to kill evil men; or that you have no opinion? See, your answer does not address the question asked.

Inorder to refresh your memory, you first posted, Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Again, I ask MY question to you, "Do you resent that God would kill evil men?"

This not a difficult question. It requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer; not a politician's dance step. (Unless, of course, there is something you fear might be exposed.) Are you afraid you might be one of those evil, wicked men?

Here is a hint: Genesis 6:1-6. If you really want a debate, be brave; go for the gold. Post the verses that lead up to your 'cherry' verse. Remember this your verse. You should know what it means.

Otherwise, your diatribes are pointless. I will not chase your rabbits.

Lily's culture of death
Lily bemoans the horror and "tragedy" of men and women who have died for her "freedom." Yet in the same breath, condemns a woman for bringing a "monster" into the world.

So according to lily, she is the one who gets to decide if a life is worth saving. She decided the "monster" was only worthy of death and condemns the mother. The mother who had respect for life over and above "convenience."

And then lily you parse words and skirt around and excuse abortion on the grounds that "We haven't defined, "convenience." Please. Do you also wonder about the meaning of the word "is?"

for those interested
There is a book "The American Holocaust" by Pastor Kent Kelly. {at least I think that is the title} If you contact The Christian Bookstore at 910-692-3471 in Southern Pines, NC they'll know what you're looking for. This is the only place you can get it. If some of you are interested in hearing more on just about everything from God's word, check out sermonaudio.com Check out pastors from all over the US and a few other countries.


If those of you don't believe abortion is murder, go to the site and clink on sermons by topic. I think you'll find hundreds of preachers to tell exactly how God feels about it along with homosexuality and other topics of concern.

Bottom Line as I see it
I have quickly perused the article and most of the postings and am amazed at the range of responses and the energy this abortion issue has stirred up. This fact in itself tells me that there is something deeper than meets the eye here that is emotional for all humans, whether you believe in God or not. The believers are defending life and the unborn child (our fellow fetuses if you want to call them that since we all at one time belonged to that brotherhood), and the non-believers defending their stance as a pro-choice issue, standing on shaky ground since they are denying the most vulnerable of our species their right to choose. There has been a lot of discussion both ways, and it is encouraging to see that people care about this issue so much. But I believe all the arguements can be broken down to the following:

1. We are all going to die. This is a fact that is obvious to everyone.

The following questions are what all our evil/good debates boil down to:

2. What happens after death? Is there life after death?
3. If there is life after death, is there a heaven and a hell?
4. How are we going to be judged?
5. Does God exist, and how will he judge me?

The Christian has the answers to all the questions above, and has reason for joy and hope. The atheists and agnostics do not have an answer for these questions, and the one they propose leads to frustration and despair. If the Christians are right, the final judgement will not go well for the non-believers. But. even if the Christians are wrong, they live a life of joy and hope. If I was a gambling man, I would become a Christian because the odds would be in my favor (Pascal's wager for those who are theologically trained). However, I was blessed with the gift of Faith, and I thank God for that and hope that all people will be given that gift and accept it before they die. For those of you who may scuff at this idea because you do not believe in God or hell, I conclude with the words of Father Benedict Groeschel of EWTN: "you will believe when you die, because you cannot 'un-will the truth' by your mis-conceived beliefs." God's Blessings to all, and to this great country of ours that was founded on His principles!

ALL
Take a moment out to review my blog story on CHICKS AND GUNS! Seems the babes in Central Florida arming up. (You KNOW they ain't dating any liberal metrosexual girlieboys!)

Funny how the RIGHT wants to PROTECT life, (no abortion) while the LEFT loves DEATH by paroling violent criminals, killing babies, etc.

fugging scumbags.

JohnCitizen
Latest talking points off of Daily KoS?


RIGHT WING CULTURE OF EVIL, HATE & DEATH


George Bush is the first American President expressing Christian certitude in his Presidential decisions. God even speaks to Bush, and as the President told the press, he was guided by “a higher authority,” “another Father” than Bush41 on going to war with Iraq. If true, presumably God would have also told him how to win this Iraq war without all the blunders, suffering and death.

The world has seen Christian certitude before and it’s not a pretty picture: papal infallibility when the Pope had armies, the Inquisition (intolerance at home) and the Crusades (intolerance abroad). When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099, they slaughtered all its inhabitants. When the Arab leader Saladin recaptured the city, he spared all the Christian inhabitants. So the Middle East is already primed for another war with Christian invaders; and accordingly and as a recent NIE confirmed, the war in Iraq has increased the number of jihadists and terrorists and made America less safe. This is not praise for the enemy, but history and insight into why our “bring it on” cowboy President is only rekindling and fueling this centuries-old fire.

Our brave, innocent young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting for a better world, but a leader ignorant of history and cultures can easily cause the opposite. The stupidity of World War I and of Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau caused terrible consequences for another 70 years after the end of that war, including Hilter and Communism. Afghanistan is the right war, certainly a just war and the whole world agreed and was on our side, and if we would have concentrated our efforts there we probably would have wiped out Bin Laden and those responsible for 9-11 by now. Iraq is a total disaster, and Iran will be even worse. Let’s face it, all George Bush knows is how to start wars!

AMERICAN DIPLOMACY… now there’s an oxymoron! The leader of Iran comes off as a whacko, however, the Iranians and the entire rest of the world view George Bush in the same way, so there is a common starting point. Real diplomacy involves talking with your adversary one-on-one without preconditions, and there’s a lot to discuss with Iran: the CIA in the 1950s, the Shah, the 1979 hostage crisis, sponsorship of terror, Israel and justice in the Middle East, and nuclear issues. But if past is prelude, Bush’s diplomacy with Iran will be perfunctory and rigged - this time, our mentally unbalanced, messianic President needs to provoke a war, AND HE WILL FIND A WAY!

This new Bush war should further help over one billion Muslims in their decision to fight America in a mutual holy war. When the President finally increases the level of hatred against the United States to where it engulfs Pakistan, then we face nuclear terror, and Biblical Armageddon becomes real and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Oh, the joy, the Rapture! Right now roiled Pakistan is just one assassin’s bullet away from going under, and still jihad recruitment is in only its infancy.

Back at home, Christian certitude is present in Bush’s politics of division and hate. Nonbelievers of Bush’s Christian values and policies are viewed with contempt, instead of as fellow citizens in a pluralistic democracy. Civility has gone out of our civilization, and this type of Christian Right hate is completely out of the closet with Ann Coulter’s book on 9-11, which has been repudiated by few if any on the right who claim to practice the Christian message of love. Hate, hate, hate -- welcome to the new Christian America (not exactly like Mother Theresa or the Amish).

“Good and evil” is a concept common in religion, morality, ethics and philosophy. Obviously the whole world needs more good and less evil. But is there a practical definition that everyone can agree on and that lends itself to objective measurement. How about: GOOD is something that makes the many human lives better and no or few lives worse, while EVIL is something that makes many lives worse, and no or few lives better. Some obvious good in this world: Habitat for Humanity, St Jude’s Children Hospital, etc. Evil under this definition would include a considerable number of Hollywood movies, a lot of poison on TV and violent video games.

Measuring George Bush’s actions by this definition with objective facts, our compassionate conservative, Christian President does mostly EVIL: from the Iraq disaster to Katrina mismanagement/incompetence to the politics of division and hate to “no child left behind” (children in extreme poverty up 20% since Bush took office) to the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich. Particulars on this last item: SUPPLY-SIDE (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.

Previous U.S. recessions have been cured with only $200 billion in tax cuts targeted to the middle class, because the consumer (the great middle class) spends that tax cut and primes the economic pump. But George Bush has raised the debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay from almost $6 trillion to almost $9 trillion for this current recovery, which is uniquely without wage gains, and which has shrunk the middle class that makes America strong and great.

Corporations (the supply side) are now loaded with cash, but there’s no place to spend it because they don’t see any demand. So many corporations are using that cash to buy back their stock -- WOW, isn’t supply side wonderful in how it fulfills America’s needs? As the rich-poor divide increases, we’re headed toward previous shining examples of trickle-down economics: South America of the recent past and feudalism in the Middle Ages (South America and feudalism also had no wage gains). This is such good evil by our compassionate conservative, Christian President and his myriad of engorged friends.

I see a dark future for the country we all love. Even our Constitution is at risk when a President says he speaks directly to God (witness how God/Allah influences and corrupts Islamic attempts at democracy). The Constitution guarantees freedom to all, and freedom for all from tyranny. Our precious Constitution binds us together as a nation, and allegiance to it is the definition of patriotism.

"I feel the hate growing within you. Let it out, and come over to the Dark Side. You don’t know the POWER of the Dark Side."

No, lilly
You did not merely wish to express your sorrow over the deaths of soldiers. You started out by asking if "we" had ever visited a military cemetery overseas, and continued by associating that experience with an implicitly superior refusal to "rationalize military deaths."

Bad argument -- like most of yours, appealing to narrow, momentary emotion. The wiser reaction to our military cemeteries is to give thanks for the courage of its residents, and their willingness to stand the ground for all of us, on lines of confrontation far away.

The reason there WAS an American 1950s, '60s, '80s, etc for those soldiers to miss out on is that they answered the call to arms. It mattered deeply who won WWII, and who won the Cold War. We would not have what we have today, or be what we are, if the other side had won. The men and women who lie in our military cemeteries knew that.

As do the ones who fight in Iraq and Afghanistan today. They don't need you to feel sorry for them. They need you to understand what it is that keeps you safe from all the human, political things that slaughtered people -- and often threatened America -- in the last century, and the things that threaten to in this one.

Exercising the luxury of thinking that the national security of a free people just "happens," and has no connection to our willingness to fight, and sometimes to die, is the worst disservice you can do the American soldier.

You can't protect him by pulling him out of a fight picked by the enemy; he's an American, and will share your fate. But then, it takes a special kind of divorce from reality in the first place to think that America is in such an unassailable position that we have to protect our soldiers, rather than the other way around.

If you disagree with Bush's assessment of where the fight has to occur, that's one thing. Fair enough; it's a worthy discussion. If you disagree that worldwide Islamic terrorism is a clear and present danger to American security, through direct threats or threats to our allies, there's a debate there that's not a waste of time.

But complaining that others are cynically rationalizing the deaths of soldiers (your invidious title: "Dismissal of Military Deaths in Iraq"), whereas you have sympathy for the sorrow of their passing, is not a worthwhile line of argument. It's pure sanctimony.

In response to Flaming Lib Muticuturalis
I believe the reason that fervent opposition to abortion has been more evident in the relatively recent period is not because people have only recently decided that it is immoral, but rather due to the fact that people rarely bother to speak out against that which is believed to be but rarely practiced.

Thus, since people are aware that over a million abortions are perfomed annually, they are more likely to speak out against it than when people believed the practice to be relatively rare.

Consider a town in which theft is virtually never encountered: these is no cause for people to put into voice their strong disapproval of theft-- it simply isn't part of their daily reality. On the other hand, a community in which theft is prevalent will undoubtedly denounce the practice and demand redress.

In response to SSGTRET
I do indeed thank you for your concern on my behalf. However, I try my best to remain within applicable regulations while expressing my views, and I believe I have nothing to fear professionally as long as I make that conscientious effort.

This seems like a good time to make something plain to the board at large, however:
My views are purely my own, not those of the Army as an organization, nor those of any group within the Army.

Thank you for your service, as well. God bless you and yours.

Errata (Erratum?)

Sorry, that "the practice on Abortion" above should read "the practice of Abortion".

SSGTRET
And there are quite a few of us who know EXACTLY what that means.

Yeah, and there's more than a few civilians here who contribute their hard earned monies to sending a platoon of soldiers an Easter gift or a mother's day gift to a female soldier they never even met?

And how about the women, mothers, grandmothers and sisters who are spending tireless and umpteen hours wrapping gifts for the troops and sending out thank you notes to perfect strangers?

Yeah, a lot of "whips" huh? You won't find too many of them here SSG.

History Contradicts Mr. Harris

As best as I can tell, the current outrage about and war against the practice of Abortion is a unique phenomen, starting in the 19th century in this country (the United States). Not that the practice was exalted before then, but it seems to have been pretty much ignored, certainly never so strongly condemned as it has been in the USA (until Roe v. Wade, anyway).

One might conclude that a strong aversion to the practice on Abortion is NOT a component of "that natural law of good and evil" which, according to Mr. Harris, "Those who have never heard of Jesus or of any of God’s written law (as the Jews have had) still have...written in their hearts."


OK,
There needs to be some kind of counseling and documentation for the reasons that women want to have abortions.

You see, the problem with abortion is that it is murder, regardless of the time after conception that it takes place. We have trials all the time for murder convictions and try to determine motive and reasoning behind the murder. Murder is a selfish act and I think if people were confronted with this fact regarding the selfish killing of a child, then they would be less likely to go through with it.

I think if the facts are known about the reasons that women give for wanting an abortion, then more people would see how selfish an act it really is.

malou
Malou: "about those EVIL Muslims
They might want the rest of the world to live their way. Isn't that also what Christians want?"

Far from it. We would like for you to accept Jesus Christ but do so on your own choice. On the middle east - you don't see the coalition forces setting up churches, crosses, etc. Rather, they're stopping the threat of Islam and constructing schools, hospitals, commerce, etc.

In response to Dr. Kooch
There is a great deal in your post that invites comment. However, on spiritual matters, it is probably pointless to discuss God with a person who has already judged the perfect Creator by the fallible standards of the created.

However, you said:
"By the way, I believe in most cases a woman should be able to choose an abortion, freely, without government interference."

Tell me if you will: in which cases does a woman NOT have the right to freely choose to have an abortion, in your view, and why?

Lilly

Have you given any thought to Ben Franklin's quote? You claim to know a lot about history (real history, not the bloviations of some self-serving talking heads). Can you think of any examples of past legislation that has taken away our freedoms and made us safer? If you can please enlighten me because I can't think of any. Can you think of any situations where a national ID card would make us safer? The muslims you fear so much are not stupid (and I never said they were). Do you think a national ID card will inconvenience them at all? Have you ever thought that maybe our enemies want our freedoms taken away? And under what situations would it be acceptable to ask a person for their papers? You can't profile based on race, but do you think the authorities will? I live in an urban area and my skin is not lilly white. Can you appreciate why I (and many others) might be a little apprehensive about a national ID card? What happens if a citizen is caught outside without their papers? Will they have to, "Come with us please." Is that the kind of America you want to live in? Is that worth a perceived (and that's all it would be) sense of security?

It's people like you that are leading this country down a very dangerous path. Please stop listening to others and think for yourself. Maybe then you will appreciate the wisdom in Franklin's words.

Sword
Indeed, Jesus did bring the sword. His Coming marks the moment for mankind when it is time to "fish or cut bait." His fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies cut a line, when the choice is made clear, and He continuously said as much throughout His entire ministry.

"No man comes to the Father but through Me."

His Word is the cleaver, which separates those who will be justified from those who will not.

The single most important point about the Constitution, is that it guarantees freedom. It does not guarantee that you will be free from exposure to words or ideas. It is amazing how this works isn't it? If one chooses to open an article and subsequently sees a reference to God or Jesus, the Constitution guarantees you the right to close it and read no further. Unless you are a vampire, who's eyes will be singed by such a sight, there is no damage done.


.

Religion website
Harris writes:
"As an aside, I might take this opportunity to point out that Jesus did not tell his followers to kill the infidels if they refuse to believe, as some “peaceful” religions are known to do."

my comments:
I will defer to the much more complete posting above which presented us with excerpts from the "Old Testament" pointing out a certain propensity for murder and mayhem on the part of the Almighty. I would add to the discussion the line from Jesus's own mouth (supposedly): 'I have come to bring not peace, but the sword." You needn't remind me that my quote is not word for word accurate; it is the gist that is important, and for those of you who want to make the claim that this line has been "misinterpreted," I say unto you (sorry, couldn't resist)that if this is the word of some omniscient being, said all-knowing one should have anticipated the potentially devastating effect of ambiguities.

a poster writes:
There is overwhelming evidence for a creator for anyone who chooses to see the evidence.

my comments:
This demonstrates that anyone can say anything. The claim is tiresome, but I have no problem with anyone believing what they want to believe. But do be sure to read a good basic biology text, and be sure you understand the scientific
arguments before you label them as false. I do, by the way, have no problem with having courses in colleges where the issues are freely discussed and debated.

My general comments:
When I signed up for this website, I thought I might see intelligent commentary. I didn't realize it was a religious website. If I want to be preached to by Christians or any other religious group or subgroup, I know where to look. By seeing the writing and, often ranting on this page, I become convinced more than ever of the danger of allowing religion to be co-mingled with the workings of our government. There are simply those who feel either entitled by reason of their superior numbers or compelled by reason of their interpretation of the tenets of their faith to foist upon their neighbors and fellow citizens a particular brand of religion. Reeks of "Talibanism" to me and i won't put up with it without a fight. Whatever the basis for their fervor, they do not and likely will not ever accept the view that such behavior is not merely unwelcome but inappropriate. No mention of Jesus in the Constitution of the United States or the Declaration of Independence. This was not an oversight, but a clearly intentional omission. The framers anticipated tyrants and zealots.
I would like to further point out that even if Harris was correct "...that Jesus did not tell his followers to kill the infidels if they refuse to believe...," history seems to indicate that a good many of said followers of Jesus nonetheless behaved in exactly the same way that "some “peaceful” religions are known to do." Fanatical Islamists are famously (infamously) killing infidels (and each other!)right now, and the blood they spill in the name of whatever is a blot on their religion. But let's not forget that Christians have their own very similar blots throughout their own history, and so should be wary at just how they cast their stones.
By the way, I believe in most cases a woman should be able to choose an abortion, freely, without government interference. I would like to see far fewer abortions, which might be achieved via better education and realistic access to birth control. Yet I respect the views of those who truly believe that abortion at any stage is the taking of human life.

acetate
Have to disagree with you. Communism, as developed by Marx, is all about the economic system. Fascism is all about political power of the state. You are right that both Hitler and Stalin were totalitarians. They just came from different places on the political continum. The idea that we could just sit back and let Germany and Russia destroy each other is a departure from reality. If we had decided to fight a battle-hardened enemy, probably Russia, we would have had a very hard time.

To all
You are most welcome. It is an honor to serve.

Tallil2long
I suppose you are correct. I would like to think that a natural sense of looking out for one's own best interest might be reason to examine one's position with great care.

If I were about to walk over a footbridge, and I heard a whisper, warning me not to cross, because a hungry troll would reach up and grab me... I might be inclined to listen whether I could see the whisperer or not. At the very least, I would proceed with extreme caution.

In any case... your responses above, are well spoken. Further evidence for condescending left-wingers to see, that our military is filled with intelligent citizens that know exactly what and why you do what you do.

Thank God for you and your fellow soldiers. Knowing that one day you folks will be back, filling leadership roles and at the very least, bolstering the intelligence of the electorate, gives me some hope for our future.

.




Preach on Brother Phil
Amen, my brother.

Excellent post Tallil2long. Well said.

Tallil2long
Thanks for your service and rest assured, those of us on the right acknowledge it while the spitters are on the left.

Disregard lilly, she has a room temp IQ and is the court jester to TH'ers.

In response to YellowGuy
Ask any atheist this question:
"If the existence of God our Creator (the one portrayed in the Bible) were proved to you, would you agree that He is worthy of your love, obedience, and utter loyalty?"

Now, in my experience atheists generally (but not always) argue that since the God of the Bible doesn't meet their own personal ethical standards, they would still owe Him nothing.

The simple fact is that many (but not all) atheists underpin their 'lack of belief' in the existence of God with a profound antipathy for the concept of a holy, sovereign God. The existence of this antipathy is what drives those persons to involve themselves in religious discussions which otherwise would seem to hold no attraction for them.
The existence of this antipathy is what causes many (but not all) atheists to adopt the stance of de facto *enemy of God* rather than simply being a nonbeliever.

ken
Communism & Nazi-ism are different in name only.

FDR (as a Marxist) chose to support Stalin (vs Hitler) who was responsbile for far more civilian deaths than was Hitler. Were FDR "right", he'd have let Hitler & Stalin wage war against each other, then (as Patton desired) wage war against the surviving fascist government which (being greatly weakened) would have resulted in an easy victory. Thus both fascist regimes would have been eliminated with little loss of American soldiers. Rather, FDRs efforts to save communism resulted in the deaths of aprox 1/2 million Americans.

In response to Lilly
I don't know why I bother to respond to you, since you never indicate receipt or answer questions.
However, I felt the need to respond.

First, I am a soldier, a member of 36th Engineer Brigade from Fort Hood, currently deployed (for 15 months) in Afghanistan. This is my third deployment since Jan 2003; the first two were to Iraq for OIF1 and OIF3.

You claim that TH posters commonly 'justify' military deaths.
Well, I don't see much justification going on, but rather a recognition that any military campaign worth fighting results in casualties. It is completely legitimate to compare casualty figures with other causes of death in society; with previous conflicts; with the objectives gained; or with the magnitude of the issues in dispute. In fact, to evaluate the costs of military campaigns versus the benefits of fighting them, it is necessary to do so.
Your argument that those who engage in such comparison must inevitably be callous *does not* logically follow.

"The loss of a young life, whether to death or massive physical injury, is not a matter to be taken lightly"

There, you and I agree. Especially since so many of those young lives are my friends. However, even worse that risking (and losing) young lives are the consequences that often follow the unwillingness to fight.
You may make your own judgement about whether the chance of self-determination for many millions of people is worth the price we have paid and are still paying. Certainly many on your end of the political spectrum seem *extremely* unwilling to risk American lives in behalf of some foreign brown-skinned people. However, demonizing all those who don't agree with your assesment is unjust and unreasonable.


Koolaide Maker
It is interesting to note how many atheists are drawn to articles about God. Have you ever wondered, if God is fantasy, why you and others are driven to battle Him?

Perhaps it is that little voice, deep down that makes you doubt your own position. It may be built-in... that fear of God, that drives you to continuously try to rebut the notion of God.

Why? To calm your own fears, for unless you can prove that God is fantasy... then you know that you a writing your own eternal death warrant.

Do yourselves a favor, and listen to that inner voice, as tiny as it may have grown. If you can still hear it, then perhaps you can still reach out your hand for help up from the pit that you have willingly jumped in to.

I'm not trying to be spiteful here. I really mean it.

Come back to the light.

..
::

On the VLWD
What a GREAT ARTICLE.

The Vast Left-Wing of Death. PERFECT for the drooling mmonbats who slaughter babies but let criminals run rampant.

BTW, check my blog (click on my handle) for THREE HARD-HITTING articles exposing Socialism in Britanistan as well as the fallacy of gloBULL warming.

The Reason it is not in the Bible
Is because when the Bibe was written, the concept of people outside circle of where the Word traveled did not exist...To men...Men wrote about the World they knew...

They were not aware of Native Americans in the Americas, Chinese in the East...The concept of "not being able to hear the word" was not known to the simple men who wrote these passages...

Seems to me an omnipresent being who knows all would write the Bible from an all knowing perspective...

Message to JETPILOT
If you really want to be taken seriously you
should break out your 1st Grade English book
and try to learn the difference between "then"
and "than".
The argument that a woman has a right to decide
what to do with her own body justifies suicide,
not infanticide.
Remember,50% of the American people are of
below average intelligence.

Majesty on High
I'd like to follow up on ValiantForTruth's answer to the question, which Mr. Harris failed to answer, "What about the person who never heard the gospel?" ValiantForTruth rightly points out that all men stand without excuse before God whether they've heard the Gospel or not.

I'd like to add that salvation "is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9. Since salvation is a gift, then it is God's sovereign right to give it to Whomsoever He will. That's sovereign predestination.

Is there any difference, I ask, between those who never hear the Gospel, and those like DA, who have the Gospel but are not given by God "eyes to see or ears to hear or a heart to perceive" what they have before them?(Deuteronomy 29:4 and other places) There is no difference.

Jesus is telling Nicodemus about sovereign predestination when He, Jesus, says that salvation is like the wind, it blows wherever it wants to. John 3:8. Man has no control over it. I anticipate that 90% of "Christians" who read this will have the same reaction that Nicodemus had in verse 9, "that can't be."

Billy Graham wrote a book, "How To Be Born Again." How to be born again?? Did anyone here have anything to do with his physical birth? A fetus can't even figure out how NOT to be aborted. Neither can anyone have anything to do with his being born again from above.

I constantly read here about man's free will to choose but the Bible says that man's free will or efforts have nothing to do with his salvation. The Bible specifically says that.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:16

God gave man a free will to show him the evil of free will. As far as I'm concerned, take my free will and throw it into the lake of fire where it belongs, for it is God Who works in me "both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

DA, you can keep reading the Bible all the way through, but you're going to find out it says the same thing in the New Testament as what you've already found out in the Old. And that is: God is the judge of the world. And this court has been in session from the beginning of the world and will be till the end.

You mentioned Greensburg, Kansas. It's true. Greensburg, Kansas received a little visit from Majesty on High the other night. Some went to heaven because of that visit, and some went to h*ll, but I guarantee you that everyone was quite impressed by the power of God in that visit. So I ask you DA, "Are you stronger than God? Then why do you provoke him?"

Job 13:7 Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

Job 13:11 Does not His majesty astonish you? Does
not the fear of Him fall upon you?

Gary Gordon



Ken
"Please get it straight. Extreme left-wingers are communists. Extreme right-wingers are fascists. President Roosevelt could not have been both. One or the other. It IS interesting that you think it was a bad idea to stop Hitler. He, of course, WAS a fascist."

Why don't you get it straight.

Both are a form of coercive socialism. The differences between Communism and Fascism lie in such characteristics as to who owns and controls the means of production. The State owns those means (that means the 'People', of course) under Communism while the State selectively allows private control under Fascism (there were filthy rich industrialists in Nazi Germany). Relative to Communism, Fascism lies to the right on the political scale but certainly to the left of free market capitalism (the propaganda used to sell the program does not define the system).

Compared to any previous president, FDR was indeed a socialist and he implemented many policies that attempted to intervene in the economy (wastefully, and ineffectively I might add), pushing the country leftward while laying the groundwork for much of the disastrous direction we have since headed in. What's even worse, he used these programs and policies, not because he thought they were the best for the country, but because they sold politically and satisfied his insatiable lust for power.

If FDR weren't so amenable to the whole socialist concept sweeping Europe in the '30s, he would have been capable of more critical judgment of Stalin. Whether he was entirely ignorant of what this monster was doing to his own people then or not, FDR was, together with his leftist coterie, Stalin's more effective useful idiot, before, during and after WWII. Churchill couldn't even believe how deluded and at times stupid this fool was in his evaluation of 'Uncle Joe'. At least Churchill was smart and able enough to manipulate FDR in order to get what he needed.

FDR was not only physically crippled but he was mentally afflicted with debilitating megalomania. By all rights, we should have been through with him in 1940, and, notwithstanding WWII, we would have been much better off.

Hooray DA!
DA says: "I have been going through the bible; chapter by chapter, verse by verse and citing all atrocities. I am only up to Judges and am over 20 pages."

Hey, good for you! I'm reading through as well. I'm just starting Judges. So we're kinda on the same page!

Are you reading all the stories, or just looking for "offensive" key words?

I'm curious as to what you call "atrocities." How do you determine that and how do you judge? Does any murder count? You're in for some real doozies. Just wait til you get all the way to Revelation. 1/3 of the earth is wiped out! Oh, and when you get to the prophets...Wow!

If you count every death and "atrocity" you better get a bigger notebook.

Maybe there is another question you can ask yourself? Perhpas there is something you don't understand?

Malou writes:
"about those EVIL Muslims
They might want the rest of the world to live their way. Isn't that also what Christians want?"

Malou, No.That is not what Christians want. We don't even have a corner on "right living." What we want you to know is that sometimes, in the dark of night, when you think about dying, and when you wonder about what is left for you after death, that there is a God who loves you.

We want you to know that when life sucks, there is a God who cares.

Like right now, I've got my own share of difficulties, but I get through, because God loves me. I have a way to get me through the tough times.

God loves you. That's all Christians are trying to say. How you live is between you and God.

anti socialist
Please get it straight. Extreme left-wingers are communists. Extreme right-wingers are fascists. President Roosevelt could not have been both. One or the other. It IS interesting that you think it was a bad idea to stop Hitler. He, of course, WAS a fascist.

typo
you can't even love

I'll pray for the lost
I'm sorry the Bible offends. I'm sorry the Truth is not what you want to hear. God is Lord. He is the Alpha And Omega. He is Truth. The only liar is Satan. You can not serve God and mammon. God is the creator. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Until you accept God and His son, Jesus Christ you'll never know salvation. You can't have an understanding of God's word, nor can you know what His will is for your life. You can even love without the love of God within your heart.
What I was hoping some would see in my post was what life is like without God. You give yourself over to a reprobate mind. In doing this, the Word of God promises death, torment in hell fire.If you take Jesus into your heart and accept the gift of salvation, you will not suffer hell.
As you grow in Christ, He reveals more of His truth. Just like with babes,you feed on the "milk" as you grow the "meat" is added. That takes time, I know because I'm still growing.
All of you who like to trash God and His people you'll have to answers for that at the judgement seat of Christ.God says in His Word that if you are one of His children you will be hated as He is hated. I'm praying for the lost.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot, hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore, hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, have not a devil; but I honor my
Father, and ye do dishonor me.
Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Those who think abortion is not murder is believing the devil's lie.I don't care if a woman is one day or 9months with child, taking the life of that baby is murder.The reasons for abortion all boil down to the sin of selishness.
read Romans 1 starting with verse 17.

Here's the deal....
If you murder someone in his bed, you're going to die.

If you never harm a single, living soul, you're going to die.

If you have sex with animals, furniture, or exhaust pipes, you're going to die.

If you never have sex with anyone or anything other than your spouse, you're going to die.

If you eat a can of Crisco every day, you're going to die.

If you eat nothing but fresh fruits and vegetables, you're going to die.

If you have an abortion yourself, help someone else to get an abortion, or simply consider yourself pro-choice, you're going to die.

If you walk a picket line outside Planned Parenthood, appoint 9 pro-life Supreme Court justices, or kill an abortionist, you're going to die.

If you are a liberal Democrat, you're going to die.

If you're a conservative Republican, you're going to die.

If you burn Bibles, Korans, and Torah scrolls in your backyard, you're going to die.

If you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and read your Bible all day long, you're going to die.

If you think Charles Darwin got it right, get a Ph.D. in anthropology, and study million-year-old anthropoid fossils, you're going to die.

If you think Genesis is a work of science, the world was created in 4004 B.C., and there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark, you're going to die.

If you believe that humans, like all other known plant and animal species, have a limited life span because it makes genetic sense that it should be so, you're going to die.

If you believe that humans die because Eve paid attention to a talking snake, instead of asking Adam to pinch her or something so she'd wake up, you're going to die.

If you follow the laws of God, Allah, or Vishnu to the letter, you're going to die.

If you spread democracy, capitalism, and Christianity to the rest of the world, you're going to die.

If you want to blame mass murder on godless liberals, power-drunk conservatives, atheist Democrats, born-again Republicans, whoever dropped the ball and let 9/11 happen, the morons who ordered the invasion of Peleliu, Hitler, Mohammed, Roe v. Wade, the Illuminati, Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, the Pope, Genghis Khan, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Janet Reno, Charles Manson, Lieutenant Calley, Jane Fonda, Captain Kangaroo, Captain Kirk, Dr. Spock, or Dr. Seuss, you can probably find all the evidence you need somewhere. You're still going to die.

We're surrounded by death, all day, every day. Sometimes it's somebody's fault. Sometimes it isn't. The real question, then, is how are we to live? I claim not to have any absolute answer to that, and I claim that none of you does either. However, there's a lot to be said for "ahimsa", which was M. Gandhi's chief precept. Gandhi is reported to have said (although I admit I can't confirm it), when asked what he thought about western civilization, that "It would be a good idea." Personally, I live with that hope, that somehow we can create a civilization that at least tries to focus on peace and freedom, even though we will always live in the midst of death.


DA
>>>
*c'mon birdman, how do you explain the unjustified murder of whole communities; men, women and children. I'm beginning to think that you've never actually read the bible.
>>>

I seem to have read it from cover to cover a number of times. Perhaps I missed some parts. Your original post on La Shawn Barber's column start with specifically Genesis 6-7 (cherry picked of course). You quoted, "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." You ended with you observation, "--God kills all humans and animals except for those on the ark"

Now without any rabbits (I refuse to chase them) answer this question: Do you resent that God would destroy evil men? It is really a simple question the requires a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. How about it DA are you up to the question or are you going to runaway?

Without excuse...

Your link was a disappointing answer to the valid question…What about the person who never heard the gospel? A passing reference was made to Romans 1:20, but this versus is in the middle of Paul’s argument that the Gentile world is lost in idolatry and without excuse.

How can the apostle say that all men are without excuse whether they have heard the gospel or not? God has revealed Himself in creation, but men by nature suppress the truth in unrighteousness. ‘For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; they became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened.’ [Romans 1:21]

The apostle then demonstrates that all men without exception both Jew and Gentile are all under sin. As it is written…

‘There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, not one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they deceive… Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.’

Like dumb animals we question God’s justice as if we deserve something other than judgment for our own sin. A more fundamental question is why is there a gospel at all; why does God save anyone?


DA

I am more than than awake, pal. Let's see if you are.

If there is a "god", it is capitalized: God. That is because it would have to be one that is personal and have a being and capable of action.

If "god" is an idol, then you are correct: it is spelled god. That is because that kind of god is inanimate.

"gods" do not have anything to do with miracles.
If you think they do, what is the basis of your argument?

You cannot not dimish a being by devaluing who he is be referring to him as something he isn't. Nor can you elevate a non-existance being by giving it more credit than it is capable of doing.

Once more: gods are incapable to being or doing. God(s) are personal beings capable of causation.

Which one do you want to talk about? We can't have a discussion if you want to attribute to one God something the other (god) is incapable of.

liberalgoodman
You wrote:
liberalgoodman writes: Sunday, May, 06, 2007 8:59 AM
"It's obvious
You think it's obvious that the fetus is a person. I don't. I think you convince yourself the fetus is a person because you want to be against abortion, and you want to be against abortion because you against sex. Do you believe in birth control? Sex education? Probably not.

A 12 week fetus has less brain function than Terry Schiavo."
--------------------------------------
Maybe, but undoubtedly more than your average liberal.

lilly

You are going to lose the argument with SunThe on the basis of moral equivalancy.

How can you equate abortion, which is a personal moral choice, with the choice soldiers make who have the desire to provide freedom for others.

It seems to me, one doesn't care about life (only her personal welfare) while the other (the soldier who lays his life down for another) cherishs it.

The "culture of death" is what people do to destroy themselves. Protecting others is the ultimate sacrifice a person can do.

Two entirely different positions. Again, you are an intelligent person. Please tell me how you can reconcile the two.

lilly: Abortion number.
Alright lilly, I'll go into a little bit on abortion statistics.

The number of abortions is difficult to measure because states do not have uniform laws on reporting abortions. Apparently, this is the only surgery for which privacy trumps the need to give proper and accurate records of. Just another criticism I have of abortion, because its beholders claim it is important to women's health and prosperity, but refuse to treat it like any other surgical operation in regard to reporting. Thier duplicitous and spinelessness knows no end, but that is aside from the point.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/

That page has the reasoning in the middle of the page.

"Official abortion statistics are often low due to incomplete reporting. In the United States, for example, not all states mandate such reporting. Even in those states that require or encourage reporting of abortion statistics, this reporting is incomplete (as demonstrated by higher numbers reported to abortion advocacy organizations). From 1988 to 1997, the total number of U.S. abortions reported to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control was 11.3% lower than the total number reported to the Alan Guttmacher Institute (the research branch of Planned Parenthood). In 1998 four states discontinued state-level gathering of abortion statistics, contributing to the 25.4% drop in CDC figures from 1997 to 1998."

That being said, the estimated number of abortions for a given year is around 1.3 million.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html

Obviously, to get the daily number you divide 1,300,000 by 365.25 (to avoid any claims of inflation). You end up with 3,559. This is the reason I had to say "nearly," up until two months ago, I could have said "more." Even still. 3,559 a day compared to 3,800 or so over four years is a pretty ridiculous comparison. One day versus over 1500? And yet it is evil Bushitler who is part of the culture of death. Yeah right.

Sonny
--That was a STUPID post. Blaming God for the devastation there? There is NO GOD according to you. How could God be the cause of an event if he doesn't exist. Isn't it just an natural disaster?
You are an idiot. You cannot have it both ways. Either He exists or He doesn't.
Make up your mind as to His existence and then we might possibly have an intelligent discussion.--

I was trying to make a point. If the tornado had missed the town it would have been a miracle for god, but it didn't. Similarly, when the miners were caught, last year, it was a miracle from god when everybody thought they were alive, but where was the blame when it was found that all but one was dead. You are the one who wants it both ways. Wake up!

SunThe
The woman featured in the newspaper article I cited was 20 weeks pregnant when the condition of her baby was diagnosed. Wouldn't that make an abortion "late-term" by definition? Not being an obstetrician, I looked this up on Wikipedia which, in fact, defines an abortion after the 20th week as "late term". I assume this very large feature article, with photographs, was meant to illustrate something about the recent Supreme Court ruling on a certain procedure used in late-term abortions.

In any case, I could not agree with you that "most abortions are done for convenience" since we have not defined "convenience" and I can't imagine where you got data to support any statement about "most" abortions. Is there an ongoing research program that quantifies every single abortion done in the United States?

But if you oppose all legal abortion, then you equally oppose abortion in the hideous medical situation described in the article, as well as abortion for the sexually promiscuous girl who carelessly gets herself knocked up while drunk. So what does it matter if I presented a worthy example?

But, you know what, SunThe, I really am not interested in arguing with you about abortion because we are flogging a dead horse here. Let's see if we can stay on the point. The article that begins this thread defines the political left as "a culture of death" which is the term the right generally uses in reference to pro-choice Democrats. My point in entering this thread was that the right is in a morally shaky position to speak of a left-wing death culture when it is so eager to feed more of our young men into the war machine and when it embraces violence as the usual solution to problems both foreign and domestic (personal weapons, concealed carry, shoot first, nuke Baghdad, kill Muslims, et al).

Lilly
That is a very good question. I, too, would like to know the answer. Whatever the methodology is, here's an even better one: take the number of women in the US of childbearing age: about 150 mil. Assume that about 1/3 of them are good, married, family types. That brings us down to 100 million whoring trollops. Assume all of them have had, are having, or are going to have an abortion this year. That means (gasp) roughly 28,000 abortions EVERY DAY in the US ALONE! This truly is a vast, left-wing culture of death we're living in.

Greensburg, Kansas

DA

That was a STUPID post. Blaming God for the devastation there? There is NO GOD according to you. How could God be the cause of an event if he doesn't exist. Isn't it just an natural disaster?

You are an idiot. You cannot have it both ways. Either He exists or He doesn't.

Make up your mind as to His existence and then we might possibly have an intelligent discussion.

Sheeesh!!

Sonny
I'm saying that most people haven't read the bible. I have been going through the bible; chapter by chapter, verse by verse and citing all atrocities. I am only up to Judges and am over 20 pages. By the time I am finished with both the OT and the NT, I expect to be well over 100 pages. When people say that they get their morals from their religion, I want to ask them when the last time they slaughtered a community was. This is not spirituality, this is an excuse to tell other people what to do.

about those EVIL Muslims
They might want the rest of the world to live their way. Isn't that also what Christians want?

Brian
Where did you get the figure that 4000 abortions are done every day? Please cite your source. That sounds like a lot, given the legal restrictions and intimidation posed by the right wing.

Sonny
Does God love everyone? Then why does he withhold understanding from people who are not capable of "spiritually" discerning the meaning of the scriptures? Do you realize that most of the world's population is illiterate? They, too, were once innocent fetuses like the ones Christians love to get worked up about. Do they get to go to heaven, even though they cannot understand the Bible on any level?

dyerje
I can't for the life of me figure out why you were offended (your word was "disgusted") by my description of our military cemeteries abroad, or what you could possibly have found in my description that was "self-righteous". Those cemeteries are heart-breaking because they impact the visitor with awareness of how much was lost by those mostly young men---there are so very many graves, and the men were for the most part barely out of childhood. My description conveyed that, I think, and was written with the utmost respect. And the larger point of my post was that military deaths of our young are a tragedy. Including the nearly four thousand from our latest adventure.

DA

There are many, many of us that are familiar with the Atheist's playbook. It is used to take out of context the meaning of the Word of God and use it to convince the non-believer to forsake their eternal destiny in favor of a pine box, "when life is over".

Reprinting parts of any writing to make a point without examing the whole is a infantile way of stating your case. The Bible is a book that must be SPIRITUALLY discerned. Until you can do so, the message of the Bible does not reveal itself. It is the basic reason so many atheists, agnostics and even many people calling themselves Christians fail to understand the nature and purpose of the Word of God.

Let's face it. If everyone read the Bible as you read it, then NO ONE would believe it and everyone would have come to the same conclusion as you long ago. But, for the fact the words have been there for over 2000 years and as many people believe it as there are, are you trying to say all of them can't read and only you and a few like you can?

Isn't that just a little bit arrogant?

Cutting and pasting scripture for the purpose of stating your argument just proves either you are ignorant of TRUTH or you are hoping to do what? Do you want no one to read the Bible? If so, please tell us what benefit there will be to mankind. Aren't you familiar with history prior to the Incarnation of a Living God? Is that what you wish for yourself and the rest of us?

The barbarians were ruling the world then: you know, evil people. You want to know something else: the Muslims are EVIL people. They want the world to live as they perceive it. Read up on it and see if you want to live as the world was in the 8th century.

Thank God He has given us an understanding of how He doesn't want us to live and well as giving us hope for the future. Thank God also for men and women who value freedom so much they are willing to lay down their lives so other people may have it.

DA, you have a long way to go yet to acquire spiritual understanding and my only hope for you is that God will give you enough time to get your heart in the right place. Following the atheist's way of thinking is taking a long walk off a short pier.

Birdman
Here are some more atrocities of the bible. God commanded his people to murder whole cities in his name. And yet, you still try to justify the mythology portrayed in the bible.

-Joshua 10:2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men thereof were mighty.10:8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.10:10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. 10:19 And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand.10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.:25 And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

--God has the Israelites kill the inhabitants of Gideon, then run after them slaying the slowest, then killed and hung the kings.

-Joshua 10:29 Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 10:30 And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it ; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho. 10:31 And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 10:32 And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein , according to all that he had done to Libnah. 10:33 Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he had left him none remaining. 10:34 And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 10:35 And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day , according to all that he had done to Lachish. 10:36 And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: 10:37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining , according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein. 10:38 And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining : as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king. 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. 10:41 And Joshua smote them from Kadeshbarnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon. 10:42 And all these kings and their land did Joshua take at one time, because the LORD God of Israel fought for Israel.

--Joshua and the Israelites commit multiple genocides.


*c'mon birdman, how do you explain the unjustified murder of whole communities; men, women and children. I'm beginning to think that you've never actually read the bible.

Birdman
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18502330/

Here is your god. I just watched where he destroyed 95% of the town of Greenburg with a tornado, including churches.

--Do you resent that God would kill wicked and evil men?--

I answered your question. I resent that he would kill babies, animals, elderly and women. If you don't; then your morals are pitiful.



DA
>>>
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth
>>>

Younever answered my question from another article. Since you just paste and cut with no thought involved I can freely ask:

Do you resent that God would kill wicked and evil men?

I am not interested in chasing rabbits. Just answer that question and we will continue from there.

Sheri
What difference does it make what you think about "the verses pertaining to unnatural affections"? Whatever is, is. Your list of bible verses, obviously intended to be threatening, does not illuminate or change anything.

praying for the lost
Lev 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God:I am the LORD.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psa 10
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart,There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven , upon the children of men,to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters:for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.Ye cannot, serve God and mammon.
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;because, they received not the love of the truth,that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
1 John 4
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise, unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

I could go on. In the short, disbelivers beware.In Exodus God tells what He thinks of abortion.Also there are verses pertaining to unnatural affections, I think this applies to abortion and homosexuality.

Those who have mocked God and His children, I pray for your salvation.

camp comatose
Not to change the subject too much, but what is this thing about keeping the Muslim prisoners at camp gitmo locked in their religion. Politicians seem to be playing God here and not giving them one chance of redeeming what they have done, or excepting a higher power than the one that got them in this mess. Mild torture they get to extract secrets doesn't bother me too much; but, don't they have the right to except or reject the one true belief system. A simple yes or a hell no would suffice. I just don't like the political correct crowd shoe-horning them into hell. No one should have that much power.

What I meant was
99.99%. Maybe there could even be another 9 on there. I don't know.

I'm prepared to get slammed for this but
Given that the aborted fetus goes straight to Heaven to be with Jesus, whereas if it is allowed to live it will have to choose Christ or go to Hell, I think abortion might be the most loving choice. You will say that is crazy, but I say consider the Holocaust. Think of the 6 million European Jews who died in the Holocaust, but are now suffering in Hell (eternally!) even more than they did in Auschwitz. 9.99% of them knew about Christianity, but they refused to accept it. That was one of the major factors underlying European anti-semitism. Jews refused to assimilate. Now they pay the price. If they had only been aborted as fetuses, they would not be suffering eternal torment, but rather, enjoying eternal bliss. I myself am no anti-semite, but I do know the rules. The only way for the Jews of WWII to have avoided eternal damnation would have been for them to die before they reached the age of accountability.

Lazyeye
One could argue that the woman gave up her right to privacy when she opted to expose herself to the possibility of getting pregnant. Moreover, pregnancy is a self-limiting, temporary condition, and there is no moral requirement that the woman bring up the child as long as she has been conscientious in providing a nurturing environment for it after birth. Thus, it is possible for the woman to give birth without its having a lifelong impact on her life when you consider that most people live for many decades. But for the baby, abortion terminates the lifespan.

Oops
"...for years of war..." (although "wears" is not that far off)

Sorry 'bout that.

Its not that complex
Two rights conflict on the abortion debate:

1) Woman's "right to privacy/do what she wants with her body"

2) An unborn child's "right to life"

the question everyone must ask themselves is:

Which right holds precedense? If you don't think that a child's right to life is greater that makes you sympathize with murder and I find your moral decision making ability deeply disturbing.


First Things First
To the first poster, Baldy, I, as another baldy say...

I agree, first things first. The FIRST of our inalienable rights listed in our Declaration of Independence is "Life."

As some posters have noted above, more babies are killed (aborted) EVERY DAY than the men and women of our armed forces in four wears of war in Afganistan and Iraq. All are tragic.

Pray, God, please end this abortion holocaust.


Usually no point
... in replying to lilly, but it's hard not to be disgusted by her self-righteous reference to military cemeteries.

The alternative to those cemeteries is the gas ovens of Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, and Dachau; the mass graves in Katyn Forest, and of Bosnia and Iraq; the piles of rotting, unburied corpses produced by Communist genocide in the Ukraine, central Asia, China, Cambodia, Laos, Angola, and Zimbabwe; the slaughters of uncounted numbers of men, women, and children perpetrated in the name of tribal, ethnic, and religious hatreds in Africa and Asia (Sudan, Somalia, Republic of Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, Angola, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Iran, Burma); and the millions who perished in reeducation camps and political prisons in Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos, the central Asian republics, Ukraine, Romania, former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Hungary, former Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany, the Baltic republics, Cuba, and Chile, whose names are known now only to God.

The most conservative estimate of all the deaths resulting from these human causes in the 20th century -- NOT counting the deaths in the world wars -- is 150 million.

Those who lie in our military cemeteries may not have been deployed at all times with perfect wisdom, over the last 230 years. But their sacrifice made the difference between having names on headstones, and having nothing to commemorate loved ones with but the echo of the screams of the nameless dead.

Since I served 20 years in the military, lost shipmates from all services in those 20 years, and have lost them in the war on terror, starting with nine of the officers killed in the Pentagon on 9/11, I'm afraid you have no further righteousness card to play here. When I die, I will be buried in one of those military cemeteries. Because I served, and because of the others who also lie in those cemeteries, the alternatives listed above have not been visited on America, and have been revealed in their truth, and even slowly beaten back and prevented, in other parts of the world.

Save the self-righteousness for celebrating the successes of the FDA.

God's Special Relationship with Jews
DA: How boring. There should be word limitations to ravings so as to save space for cogent discussion. What you do not evidently understand is that God had a special relationship with the Jewish people, he set rules and boundaries for them, in the light of His covenants with them, and you cannot compare God’s treatment of the Jews in the Old Testament to this day and time and God’s relationship with Non-Jews. But, then, every responsible Bible scholar knows that.

Genesis 6:7 = God destroyed the world, except innocent animal life and Noah and his family, because of sin and rampant evil…that was the punishment for sin in that day…today we live under God’s grace in that he placed all our sins (in the post-Noahic world) upon his Son Jesus Christ, and we are redeemed by belief in the finished work of the cross.

Genesis 19:8 = Lot knew the strangers in his house were angels, and in the custom of the day, he was bound to protect guests in his house…and he knew that God’s will would be done in the situation, and as you can read, the daughters were protected by God.

Genesis 22:2 = This was a testing of Abraham’s faith and when his obedience to God’s command was unquestioning, his faith was secure, his son was spared and God was pleased.

Genesis 38:7 = God’s judgment was just, fair, sure, and swift when his commandments were broken…thus the necessity for the Cross of Jesus Christ to save us all.

Genesis 38:4 = You are deceptive…she was not burned…you are taking things out of context and putting your own spin on the verses…she bore twins , the first of which went through Boaz and Ruth to King David’s line.

Exodus 4:24 = The reaction of God to the failure of Moses to circumcise his firstborn dramatically underscores the seriousness of the rite of circumcision he prescribed for Jewish males.

Exodus 7:21:=So…………………………..I don’t get the point of the inclusion of that in your diatribe.

Exodus 9:3:=Yes, this torture was inflicted on Pharaoh and his people for his failure to let the people of Israel leave the enslavery of his capture of them. Again, so……………..

Exodus 15:3 = God destroys Pharaoh’s army who were chasing the Jews in order to kill them after their escape from him. Again, so………………………………..

Exodus 17:30 = Amalek came and fought Israel in Rephidim. The Jews were not the aggressors but were merely fighting off their attackers.

Exodus 21:15 = The fifth commandment was serious, and disrespect for parents had been designated as a capital offense. Are you sitting in judgment of the laws of that day?

Exodus 22:18 = Again, sorcery fell under the moral and ceremonial principles of that day and time…if you can’t take the punishment, do not do the crime.

Exodus 22:20 = “Thou shalt have no other God before me” and, again, it was the law and moral principle of the day…is that any worse than killing innocent life in the womb?

Deuteronomy 32:39 = After showing the worthlessness of false gods (vv. 37,38) this declaration of the nature of God was presented in contrast to show that the God of Israel is the living God, the only One who can offer help and protection to Israel. He has the power of life and death with regard to Israel and the power to wound and heal them.

I could go on and answer all of your examples, but I do not wish to be as boring and redundant as you. You are seeking to prove that God is not just (I assume that is your intention) and you are citing evidences of the Jews breaking the laws of God’s provisions that were set down for their society…lawlessness and rejection of God’s mercy were not tolerated in order to maintain an orderly and spiritual society.

One day YOU will stand before Him and answer for your life…why worry about the ancient Jews and God’s dealing with them…you are in more imminent danger yourself!

The Genocide of the Left
1.1 million Vietnmanese and Cambodians killed by the Viet Cong and the heinously evil Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia with the Vietnam pullout courtesy of spineless pantywaist Democrats who controlled the Congress back then and pulled the plug on supporting our troops.

40+ million innocent babies killed by the Abortion death camps in the American Left's modern Holocaust sponsored by the only God the Left recognizes, lord satan himself.

3,000 in the Twin Towers courtesy of Bill Clinton's refusal to take out bin Laden on 3 occasions when his head could have been handed to him on a silver platter.

3500 US soldiers in Iraq courtesy of the Left's insistence on fighting a Politically Correct war and hamstringing our troops and emboldening our enemies by their embrace of TREASON.

When the TREASONOUS Democrats force us out of Iraq, which invariably will happen, how many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis will be slaughtered and raped in the next genocide??? How many more people must be senselessly slaughtered on the altar of the wanton lust for power at all cost and Political Correctness at all cost of the utterly senseless and morally deparaved Democratic Party?


Abortion
In many States in our Union, laws have been passed, that charge a third party of MURDER, of a Fetus even though it was an accident, I.E. Auto crash. In the infamous Peterson case, he was convicted, of not only killing his wife, but his UNBORN son. Now I submit, that the advocates, of late term abortion, cannot have it both ways, if a person can be convicted of murdering an unborn child, then the Late term abortion, is then also MURDER. you CANNOT have it both ways.

Oh Lilly please
Surely you are aware that most abortions do not involve a baby who is malformed or ill, as in the situation you described. You must know that the abortion reviled by pro-life people is that done for mere convenience, which is the majority of them.
You're entitled to your views, but don't try to twist the facts, presenting that one heart-rending situation as the norm, and as the reason pro-abortionists are passionately so.
By the way, although you likely claim to be "pro-choice", you condemned the mother in the article for making her choice as having faulty judgement.
Many mothers in that situation do make that choice, preferring to give birth, and to at least hold their (whole) baby in their arms before having to give it a funeral. How cold hearted are you anyway???

Well Done DA, except:
All of that was in the old Testament.

Had you actually studied Christianity for even a single moment beyond finding Bible quotes focusing primarily on God's wrath, you would know that Jesus formed a new covenant. Love thy lord and love thy neighbor as thyself.

Furthermore, even the Jews who still have the Torah don't do any of that stuff. If you want a modern day stoning or genocide, Islam is the place to be. Darfur? Islamic mujahideen. Homosexuals in Iran? Hung by thier necks. Women in the Middle East at large? Burka Burka Muhammad Jihad.

lilly:

Nearly as many abortions occur every, single, solitary day in America than troops have lost thier lives in four years of combat. The left widely approves of Margaret Sanger as a female leader despite her racist and eugenic screeds. The left has extreme tolerance for criminals and gang leaders who murder others (like Stanley "Tookie" Williams), but finds capital punishment abhorrent.

You want the culture of Death? Look no further than the left. How many more will die if we pull out of Iraq now if the Defeatocrats get thier way? Likely millions, but it must be the right that is the culture of death for daring to go after the terrorists, who killed the numbers we've lost in 4 years in 4 hours of 1 day.

Spermice Ist Verboten
anti-socialist - the Catholic Church contends that tube tying and any other form of contraception is a sin - some stores refuse to carry condoms in their stock in relation to this – if as they contend that any spermicide is a sin than I guess I sure murdered a bunch in my teenage years and flushed em down the toilet - didn't ever say a prayer for em when that swushing sound ensued

gently99
As to replies to lilly, you are right. She's (if that's the case) a committed follower of the lib/socialist creed and reads her scripture, chapter and verse, every morning as she says, in her beloved Wash Post.

One can understand the ignorance of youth or the results of imposed indoctrination, but there's something sad and pathetic about an oldster who's whole remaining life is committed to distortion and misinformation; to support a doctrine that has lied, butchered and offered nothing but false promises wherever it has found root; that defies logic and innate morality regardless of one's professed - or non-existent - spiritual convictions. She thinks this is some kind of smorgasbord where she can select only those ideas that are appealing and politely decline or deny the rest of it.

Perhaps it's basis is misery and as we know, misery loves company. Regardless, it is indeed useless to deal with lilly (or that make me laugh jerk).

A few comments as usual
ToddonCapeCod - what would you say are an acceptable number of casualties ?? and Oh by the way have you served in the military? - as most of the comments that are posted by the conservative hawks are from folks who have never heard a shot fired down range

GunnyG - I am with you on abortion but they have taken it to extremes - Dubya vetoing the stem cell bill - those frozen embryos will end up in the Dumpster - but no don't use them to help folks with incurable diseases primarily Amyotropic Lateral Sclerosis – commonly known as Lou Geherig’s Disease

Folks like Bush that talk to God are OK – most common most folks pray and that is talking to God and just fine - it is the folks that contend that it is a two way conversation that are over the top - it is also a cop out - if something goes wrong - well don't blame it on me I was just doing what God told me to do - Those folks along with most of the religious right are scary - also if abortion is genocide - and we are certainly against that - why don't we do something about those folks in Africa being slaughtered by Muslims - oh sorry I forgot they are just black folks – beside we don’t have the resources to do anything about it as we are tied up Iraq bring democracy to a bunch of Rag Heads that don’t have a clue about what it is

Regardless of God/No God...
This is the paragraph that says "I'm a crazy loon yet I will continue writing":

"As is customary for my columns, the title appears to have little, if anything, to do with my discussion so far; therefore, I will proceed to my ultimate destination. The Vast Left-Wing Culture of Death violates this innate knowledge of Good and evil, that exists in every human who ever lived. "

Drive By...
You do realize that there is a page two, to many columns on this website.

You ask the author... "Did you know that 25% of all conceptions naturally abort? Making God, or nature, the biggest abortionist of them all."

Which leads us to believe that you didn't even read the column, because he wrote....

"At conception, when the genetic materials from two human beings combine, a third human life is ignited.

That life may burn for only a day or it may burn for 100 years. Regardless of how long it lasts, it is a human life, nevertheless."

I don't know about you, but I would say that noting that the new life may last 1 day or it may last 100 years, makes it pretty clear that yes, the author understands that not all conceptions end up in birth. And whether or not God's plan calls for a life to be long or short, has absolutely nothing to do with the abortionists gleeful practice of reaching in and tearing the limbs off of a child.

Perhaps, you would do better to not do drive by headline reading, and actually spend some time in reading comprehension. And as for Methodists... I left that church when I had a Methodist "Minister" tell me, that he didn't know if he would be going to heaven or not.

Hopefully, this isn't what you hear every Sunday.


.

To Baldy
Do you seriously think that "10 million Spanish speakers" are going to "walk across the border" and "blow us all up"?

According to the newspaper (citing Federal Reserve and Rutgers University studies) the incarceration rate of immigrants is 1/5 that of the general population. In California in 2004 94% of undocumented immigrant men ages 18-64 were working, while only 82% of native-born men in California at that time were working. Sounds to me as if they are too busy working their a**** off to be hatching terrorist plots.

re: DA writes:
Someone pointed this out to me so I thought you might the Blaspheme Challenge interesting just because it comes from the New Testament.

What I tell unbelievers is that if one goes into reading the Bible with the agenda to dismiss it, you will certainly find something and it is not always the same something for different people.

Phil is right about one thing. God leaves all of us with a need for right and wrong and a need for his love. I find people who are not in denial about being spiritually dissatisfied with their lives are the ones open to God's word. I find direct confrontation with people who are in denial about being spiritually dissatisfied and unbelievers are best won over by a seeing the good works of Christian and the examples of our lives. I'm not denying that for some people just reading the Bible is good enough, but Jesus commands us to be fishers of men precisely because the Bible to the unbeliever in general is not enough. We must demonstrate good works and examples. Become come to the Bible because of the examples his followers live. His followers must bear witness and the Bible alone is insufficient. Your long post is reflective of one who does not understand the Bible must live throughout the ages.

The Blasphemy people below are missing the point of the Bible. They are mocking the Bible based upon their interpretation of a passage. Just as you are.



http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/

INSTRUCTIONS:

You may damn yourself to Hell however you would like, but somewhere in your video you must say this phrase: "I deny the Holy Spirit."

Why? Because, according to Mark 3:29 in the Holy Bible, "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Jesus will forgive you for just about anything, but he won't forgive you for denying the existence of the Holy Spirit. Ever. This is a one-way road you're taking here.

Once you have shot your blasphemous video, just follow these two easy steps:

1. Go to this link on YouTube to upload your video as a "Video Response" to the Blasphemy Challenge. (You can log in or register on that page if necessary.) Please put the URL http://www.blasphemychallenge.com somewhere in the text description when you upload your video.

2. When the video appears on YouTube, send the URL to this email address: waronchristmas@hotmail.com. Also include a complete United States mailing address* so we can send your free copy of The God Who Wasn't There.

That's it. We're only giving away 1001 DVDs, so blaspheme now. More questions are answered in the FAQ. View the press release here. View television coverage here.


The Culture of Death
Osama bin Laden said: "You believe in life; we believe in death." Now it becomes possible to understand why the left is so supportive of Islam (pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel, anti-counterinsurgency, etc.). Both elements are based on the culture of death.

Christianity is the religion of God. Islam is the religion of Satan. It is not surprising that those in America who are separated from God would be sympathetic to Satan's religion.

Hope Your Write Software
Hi! I hope for your clients sake you write software better than you write op/eds.

Did you know that 25% of all conceptions naturally abort? Making God, or nature, the biggest abortionist of them all.

There are three little words that Christians have a hard time dealing with.

I don't know.

I don't know why God chooses to abort so many conceptions. I don't know how such a conception fits into the scheme of the after-life.

It is easy to shake your head at the Mormons who baptize the dead in order to change their after life chances.

As a Methodist I find it just as ridiculous that the Catholics and many other sects baptize infants WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT THIS CHANGES THEIR AFTER LIFE CHANCES.

Ok, Phil. Let's see you make philosophical arguments about why wait until birth for baptism?

Why not baptize upon conception?

Baptizing babies with the expectation that this somehow influences their afterlife if they die in childhood is just as ridiculous as people who claim abortion is not killing human life.

I don't know what happens in the afterlife to those life that die in the period between conception and birth. I don't know happens in the afterlife to innocent children who die right after birth before being introduced to God. I don't know if "birth" is even a distinguishing factor for God. If Catholics really believe life starts at conception then why not baptize the conception?

As a Methodist we believe it is ok to say "I don't know" and trust in God for things the Bible doesn't say. The Bible doesn't say why God chooses to abort 25% of all conceptions. I don't know and it is not my position to say.

It is not my job to decipher these things. My job is to do good and spread the word that we do have.

I had a grandfather who most likely would've thought all of you belonged to a culture of death. My grandfather, and grandmother, believed that a woman was meant to be pregnant her entire life bearing years. Anything less was a culture of death. I'm not making this up. I forget the sect he belonged to but "be fruitful and multiply " was a commandment they took very seriously. My mother hated that notion and became a Methodist.

Finally, our job is to convince the unbelievers and win them over to being believers. Somehow I do not believe that using terms like "Culture of Death" is going to bring them to conversation table with an open mind.

So, not only are you not bearing witness, you are doing the opposite. You are being arrogant in your superior position and stinking up the world with your arrogance, driving off the unbelievers.

You are helping the devil with this column, not Jesus.

I don't know what happens in the afterlife to the innocent. That's what I tell those who are unbelievers and they accept it. It does not detract in anyway the message of hope God's love brings to those in need of it.







Reproductive controll
DA writes: "Abortion is about a woman's right to control her own reproductive system."

DA is indeed a lying liberal. "Controlling her own reproductive system" would be either having her "tubes tied" or having a hysterectomy - not butchering a baby (or if you prefer latin over english, a fetus). (Of course, refraining from intercourse is the most efficient way of controlling one's reproductive system.)

"Hardened Hearts" abound around here...
Isaiah 63:17
O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants’ sake, The tribes of Your inheritance.
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Daniel 5:20
But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him.
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Mark 6:52
For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.
But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?
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John 12:40
“ He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.”
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To Gunny
I have read the Washington Post nearly every morning since 1966. In recent years it has moved steadily toward the right (a lot of the old-time readers complain about this). Its editorial and opinion pages include pieces written by conservative columnists and its editorials often support actions of the Bush administration. It now has a daily column "On Faith" and every single day continues its "Fallen Heroes" feature with photographs of all of the war dead, their ages, and their state of origin. You say "The Washington Post gives no honor or dignity to those warriors who have fallen". Of course they do. I take another daily paper that has not endorsed a Democrat for president since 1852---it is a staunchly Republican paper---and it does not have a daily feature devoted to the fallen as the Post does.

But I hope you're not saying that you only read sources if you expect them to agree with you? Swimming in unfamiliar waters can be informative. Come on in: the water's...perhaps not fine, but always interesting. Aren't you even curious?

modernone
--In every case of using religion as a defense for ones actions one can find the greed and corruption that is the base motivation for the wars and the persecution.--

I agree.

--It means integrity, consistency, and respect which forms the foundation of strength.--

This is how I live my life. I have been in the military since 1992 [3rd generation] and am married and have a beautiful child. That is irrelevant when speaking about religion.

comment
Yellowguy

Religion is about subservience and obedience. Threats of eternal damnation and promises of eternal life are what keeps people on there knees begging for forgiveness.

modernone

I am going chapter and verse. I will, eventually, arrive at the new testament. However, you may want to reread it if you think it does not contain similar material. In fact, jesus mentions the old testament and some of the occurrences mentioned above.

Read the new testament
Persisting in attempts to be "right" with God by using the murderous and prejudicial ways of the old testament is not going to get us anywhere. To do so you must abandon the New Testament. Live by the golden rule and forget the quotes that can be used to justify any atrocity and any attack on a person or a people.

By doing so you can root out the hypocrisies so evident in the extremes of the religious posers such as the current leadership in the US as well as the religious extremists throughout the world. The same holds for the "I know whats best for you" attitudes of the left which translates to "I know how to get what I want."

In every case of using religion as a defense for ones actions one can find the greed and corruption that is the base motivation for the wars and the persecution.

Chill. Get to know your neighbor, re-examine your reasoning and live to deserve the respect of others. This does not mean weakness by the way. It means integrity, consistency, and respect which forms the foundation of strength. It creates a position where others know not to mess with you and to show restraint in their opposition.

Does this mean nothing bad will happen to you? No. But at least you did not waste your life with petty defense of hate through hypocrisy and violence.

Sorry DA
But abortion is about removing troublemakers, much as the Mob does to pesky prosecution witnesses, and troublesome hangers-on who don't tow the line. Can't be having all those loose ends.

And as the left loves to spew about war, that war is about oil and making buddies rich, abortion is also about a mega-billion dollar industry, conveniently wrapped in crocodile tears about women being oppressed by those dirty fetus parasites.


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Terry Schiavo
Re:JETPILOT's ramblings - Terry Schiavo was NOT "kept alive on machines". She was breathing on her own. She died because she was deprived of water, period. This is condemned by every major religion in the world, of course everyone attacks Catholics or other Christians.I read quotes by Islamic clerics during that time that were against letting this woman die of thirst. Devout Jews and Muslims are also against depriving people of water and also abortion, becasue of the innate knowledge of right and wrong which Mr. Harris speaks of.

yellowguy
Abortion is about a woman's right to control her own reproductive system.

The bible is about murder and atrocities.

The religious person does not care about women, which is why they are worth less than men [see my above post].

BAN STEVE SPAM
HE IS A KNOW NOTHING FEEDING OFF THE ACCOMPLISHED

research animals have better protection
I can assure you that drug companies conducting research are held to higher standards of animal care than the medical community is in conducting abortions.

The partial birth abortion technique would never be allowed for animals because of pain and distress. Euthanasia standards for research animals are far higher for animals than they are for humans.

Wake up People!!

I get it DA...
Now we understand... you and yours believe that, since God went to such enormous trouble, as evidenced by your enormous post, the Left has decided that it is far better to take care of all these things early on. So the answer is, and you folks wonder why didn't that silly "God" figure this out his own self, to avoid all of this killing later, by killing them before they are born.

Yeah... the little ones, don't fight back. No one has to look them in the eye... they won't have a chance to do all of that sinning.

WOW... Why didn't we think of that? And to think that the left has done all of this good work in only 30 years. Yep, 40 million dead babies that were good for nothing anyway. Taken care of before they could cause a bunch of trouble.


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The right wing culture of death
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth

--God kills all humans and animals except for those on the ark

Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

--Lot offers up his virgin daughters to be gang raped and then god kills every man, woman and child in Sodom.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

--God tells Abraham to murder his own son and Abraham prepares to do it until god changes his mind.

Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

--God murders Er.

Genesis 38:24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

--Judah burns tamar because he mistakenly thinks that she is a harlot.

Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

--God is looking for Moses so that he can kill him for not having his sons circumcised. [this does not speak highly of god’s powers of omnipotence and omniscience nor his morals]

Exodus7:21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

--God has moses and aaron turn the waters in Egypt to blood killing all of the fish and making the water undrinkable.

9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. 9:9 And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt. 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

--God tortures the people of Egypt.

Exodus11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

--God murders all of the firstborn of Egypt with premeditation.

Exodus15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.15:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

--The murderous god kills an army

Exodus17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
--God supports a holy war against the amaleks.

Exodus21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

--kill disobedient children.

Exodus22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

--The verse that killed so many innocents.

Exodus22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

--Kill infidels.

Exodus32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

--God has the sons of levi kill thousands for worshipping the golden calf

Exodus31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

--Kill all who work on the Sabbath day.

Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

--God insisting on a very pagan ritual.

Leviticus10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

--If the preists perform the ritual wrong, god will kill them.

Leviticus14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;

--God plagued the Canaanites with leprosy

Leviticus20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

--Any man who sleeps with the molech will be killed

Leviticus20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.


--self explanatory laws. Pay particular attention to 20:9,10,13 and 27.

Leviticus24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

--Another cause of mass murder throughout history. Death for blasphemy.

Leviticus25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

--God supports slavery.

Leviticus26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.26:8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword

--God wants his people to chase and kill others; i.e. genocide.

Leviticus26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children , and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

--How god will punish the Israelites

Leviticus27:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. 27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

--A woman is worth less than a man.

Numbers 3:3 These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office. 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.

--Two of Aarons sons killed by god.

Numbers4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have made an end of covering the sanctuary, and all the vessels of the sanctuary, as the camp is to set forward; after that, the sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.4:20 But they shall not go in to see when the holy things are covered, lest they die.

--God threatens to kill Aaron and his sons if he looks at or touches the holy things.

Numbers11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

--God murders people for complaining

Numbers11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

--God places a plague upon people for eating quail

Numbers14:35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die. 14:36 And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land,14:37 Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the LORD.

--God punishing the Israelites for ‘murmuring against him .

Numbers15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

--God commands a man be killed for working on the Sabbath.


Numbers16:27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

--God has the earth swallow several families and then burns the rest to death.

Numbers16:41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.
16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. 16:47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people. 16:48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed. 16:49 Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. 16:50 And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.17:12 And the children of Israel spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish. 17:13 Whosoever cometh any thing near unto the tabernacle of the LORD shall die: shall we be consumed with dying?


--God murdering more people for murmuring against moses and abraham.

Numbers18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for everything of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

--God threatens to kill all strangers who come near the congregation.

Numbers21:2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities. 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

--God delivered up the Canaanites for genocide.

Numbers21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

--Again, god killing Israelites for complaining about starving and thirst.

Numbers21:31 Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites. 21:32 And Moses sent to spy out Jaazer, and they took the villages thereof, and drove out the Amorites that were there.21:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.21:35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.

--More genocide.

Numbers25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. 25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

--By murdering an interracial couple, phinehas stopped the plague

Numbers25:17 Vex the Midianites, and smite them: 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. 31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.


--God endorsed genocide followed by rape and slavery.

Numbers33:4 For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

--Another mention of the slaughter of innocent babes.

Numbers33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

--If the Israelites cannot drive out the cannonites, god will prick out their eyes.

Numbers35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

--murder the murderer [wouldn’t that include the murdering god?]

Deuteronomy2:19 And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.2:21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day: 2:23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed them, and dwelt in their stead.)

--More genocide


Deuteronomy2:31 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 2:32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: 4:3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.


--More genocide

Deuteronomy3:3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.3:22 Ye shall not fear them: for the LORD your God he shall fight for you. 20:4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


--After multiple genocides, god says that “he will fight for you.” Why would the creator of everything need to fight, anyway?

Deuteronomy4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

--God threatening death to those who worship others and saying that he is jealous. Why would the creator be jealous when he could have just created them differently?

!!!!!Deuteronomy4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

--WHAT????

Deuteronomy6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

--Death to all that are not christian?

Deuteronomy7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

--Recapping the genocides

Deuteronomy7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

--God will kill those people that don’t believe in him

Deuteronomy7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them : neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.

--Have no pity on those that worship other gods and kill them.

Deuteronomy7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

--This verse speaks for itself.

Deuteronomy7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. 7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God

--Kill everyone who god sends.

Deuteronomy13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

--Anyone who suggests turning away from god should be killed by your own hand, even if they are loved ones.

Deuteronomy17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

--Kill anyone who believes differently.

Deuteronomy20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

--More genocide.

Deuteronomy21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

--Kill disobedient children.

Deuteronomy21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

--Kill the sinner and hang them on a tree.

Deuteronomy22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: 22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: 22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; 22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. 22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

--If a man says his new wife was not a virgin she will be killed.

Deuteronomy22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

--An adultering couple will be put to death.

Deuteronomy22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

--A raped virgin will be killed along with the rapist if she doesn’t scream loud enough.

Deuteronomy22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

--If a rapist gets caught; he owes the father money.

Deuteronomy25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

--The christian sharia.

Deuteronomy25:11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:25:12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

--If a wife grabs another mans genetalia during a fight between him and her husband; she will lose her hand.

Deuteronomy28:15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 28:16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 28:17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 28:18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep…..

--What will happen to those who don’t follow god’s commandments and statutes [spec. old testament].


Deuteronomy32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

--What god will do to nonbelievers.

Deuteronomy32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

--God discussing his thirst for blood and revenge.

Dismissal of Military Deaths in Iraq
Some of the arguments presented by townhall posters:

1) 3726 fatalities aren't significant because more lives that than have been lost in previous wars.

2) 3726 fatalities don't signify because more fetuses have been aborted than 3726.

3) Military deaths are a normal part of life.

Have you people ever actually visited a military cemetery, say one of the big ones in Europe where our World War II troops are buried? All you see, all the way to the horizon, is acres and acres and acres of white marble crosses with once in a while a Star of David. Then you read the names and dates on the stones and what strikes you is how young those kids were---over and over, they were 19 or 20. They missed EVERYTHING. They missed going to school on the GI Bill and then living in a ticky-tacky little postwar house and buying a pink refrigerator in the 1950's. They missed swearing at hippies in the 1960's. They missed VietNam in the 1970's and the Reagan 1980's and the Clinton 1990's and they missed the Millenium. Through all of that, they slept.

Then you walk down the road to see another cemetery. This one has our soldiers from World War I and, what do you know, they were also 19 when they died in the "War to End All Wars". Then you walk a bit farther down the road to find some more young men's graves, and these are of German soldiers. They missed everything too.

So, no, I can't agree with you when you rationalize military deaths. I don't find it one bit nicer when a 20 year-old kid gets his face blown off just because his grandfather also died in a war or because somebody had an abortion last year. And the argument that military deaths are insignificant compared with abortions is an immoral and revolting argument. We may agree or disagree about whether abortion is wrong or right ever or sometimes or always. But taking the life of a young man or woman who hasn't yet experienced the only life God is going to give him or her, is horrible to a degree that paralyzes the mind---if you allow yourself to feel it. And taking the parent away from a child is an endless tragedy for that child.

In Massachusetts I chatted a few times with a couple of World War I vets who lived in a local Soldiers' Home. They used to tell endlessly anyone who would listen about the exciting parade and turnout the town gave them when they marched away to war. They were gassed in that war. This affected their minds. That parade was about all they could remember, of anything. Ever since they were shipped home from the war, they had lived at the soldiers' home. That was their life.

The loss of a young life, whether to death or massive physical injury, is not a matter to be taken lightly.


It's obvious
You think it's obvious that the fetus is a person. I don't. I think you convince yourself the fetus is a person because you want to be against abortion, and you want to be against abortion because you against sex. Do you believe in birth control? Sex education? Probably not.

A 12 week fetus has less brain function than Terry Schiavo.

Lilly's in Lala Land
Rather than going to Washington Post's blatant politicizing of the war and viewing pictures of those who gave their lives in a "lost cause." why don't you page through the bible and discover that wars are aren't always about political power creating needless deaths. Wars are a legitimate form of bringing justice to evil regimes. And guess what? People die in wars!

The Washington Post gives no honor or dignity to those warriors who have fallen. They are doing what liberals typically do -- using those pictures to further their own cause. They have no shame. This war is a just war no matter how you liberals want to portray it. You liberals care not one whit about the thousands of Kurds that Saddam Huessain gassed, not one iota for the thousands of innocent men, women and children who were brutally tortured, killed, raped and buried in mass graves. These deaths mean nothing to you, but to some Americans these injustices are unbearable and they are over there doing something about it. You liberals only stand about wringing your hands and whining about your own unpleasant feelings and about how evil our president is.

The brave men and women who are fighting this war deserve more respect than you liberals will ever be able to muster up. You sit in your comfortable homes and drive in your nice cars and go about your daily business only because of the sacrifices that these soldiers have endured.

While Al Qaida is raining death and destruction all around the world, they have not touched this country since 9/11. You can thank our president and our soldiers for that...but you won't.

I am ashamed of all of you.

Question mark??
Mr. YouDoMakeMeLaugh,

Your original post said "died" not "have been killed". So, I was merely correcting your severe error.

Since you changed it to "have been killed", well, you are still incorrect. Far more people have been killed from non-religious wars and genocides than in the name of God, so try again.

But posting the same thing (with the exception of a word) twice was really a great way to prove me wrong. Well played.

Second response to lilly
"Meanwhile, here on townhall, a day doesn't pass without posts urging more death: the killing, bombing, "nuking", flattening, and "return[ing] to the Stone Age" of other nations, with special focus on all that have Muslim citizens residing therein."

And on Huffington Post (a LIBERAL website) here's what people are saying:

"MORE OIL NAZIS to SHOOT guys !
Most of these men wont make it back I garantee you that. Now that the Iraqis are divided and the Talibans scattered, just wait a few weeks and start counting the Amerikkkan body bags !
By: BUSHCHENEYOILNAZIS on May 05, 2007 at 09:08pm"

"There is 150,0000 mercenaries working in Iraq for the likes of Blackwater & etc.
By: ohno on May 05, 2007 at 10:37pm "

"Forget the pretense! America in Iraq = USSR in Afghanistan. Variations on a theme. What goes around, comes around.
By: Scarabus on May 04, 2007 at 05:50pm"

"Right Wing Christians believe everyone else is an evil sinner and the role of government is to round 'em all up and shoot 'em.
By: guitarsandmore on May 01, 2007 at 11:43pm "

"WHY DOESN'T HE GO? WHY DON'T ALL OF THESE HAWKS AND THEIR FAMILIES GO? WHY DO THE POOR AND MINORITIES NEED TO DO ALL OF THESE BASTARDS' DIRTY WORK? F*CK ALL OF THEM GO TO HELL.
By: JoeLosFeliz on May 05, 2007 at 08:29pm

"Why is the Reich wing so interested in killing the planet, American soldiers, foreigners, non-whites, non-conservatives, non-republicans? Did I leave anyone out of your death mantra ghoul? For a party that pretends to be prolife you sure do love to kill alot.
By: doinaheckofajob on May 05, 2007 at 12:59pm"

"A fetus is NOT a child and a fetus is NOT a human being. It is a part of the female's body until it is carried to term and can live outside the human body. Until then, it is medically, little more than a parasite and it is a possession of that woman. Life is NOT sacred. Human life is NOT sacred. Trailer trash likes to pretend human life begins at conception out of convenience for their argument only.
By: XeroXone on May 06, 2007 at 02:12am"

[Part of the woman's body? Not if it has UNIQUE DNA]

Here's a couple of classics from my last extensive visit to HuffPo:

"Only "faggy" Brits commit suicide. American soldiers don't kill themselves and don't desert. They rape and kill Iraqi girls and write songs about it."

"American Military are f*cking NAZIS nothing less. We are no better than the Russians,the Iraqis and any heartless country in this world.
We deserve to be anhialated !
Just look around you and tell me if that's the American way of life you see outside your window.
We are a f*cking JOKE !
By: BUSHCHENEYOILNAZIS on April 01, 2007 at 03:48pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/comments/2007/03/31/44696

Are these your *rational* compatriots, Lilly? You try to pretend that your wing is so rational, so moderate, so balanced and so wise.
But the facts tell a different tale.
"First remove the plank from your own eye; then you will see clearly to remove the speck of dust from your brother's eye".



"death by liberalism (aka fascism)"
More people died due to Nero, Hitler, Stalin & communism in general.

More Americans died in WWII (thanks to "useful idiot" communist FDR - using our soldiers to defend the USSR (and some of western European) from Germany, ensuring that the USSR would gain control of much of Europe) than have died fighting the people who attacked liberal New York.


To Gunny
I figured this was finally going to be about abortion. The other day one of my morning papers (which I read while eating breakfast, which in this case was inappropriate) had a huge feature article praising a woman for carrying a deformed fetus to term. She was informed in the 20th week of her pregnancy that her child had brain abnormalities that would make it medically impossible for it to survive life outside the uterus. It also had half its abdominal organs in a sac outside the body, double cleft lip on both sides of the mouth, and no nose. By the best medical judgment, this child was not going to survive its birth.

This particular mother chose to hope that it would survive (which says something already about her judgment) and so carried it anyway. But many perfectly virtuous women would not chose to do so: they would have chosen to face reality that God had made a mistake, and to put an end to a tragic mess. And if the child had died before it was delivered, its continued presence in the uterus could have posed a health risk to the mother. But the anti-abortion folks don't care.

In their rabid fervor to prevent all abortion, many will see this story as inspirational. The woman gave birth by Caesarean section, after which the baby first turned pink, then "sallow, then a shade of blue" (quoting the paper), then it died. It lived only a few minutes. The woman had her choice. Many women would not have their choice but would be forced to endure a process that can rationally be described as disgusting: carrying a monster, possibly carrying a dead monster, and having to give birth to it.

To many that article surely presented a strong argument for legalized abortion.

Oh My God!
First it starts with THE LEFT FOR DEATH!

PLEASE REPUBLICANS ARE SINNERS AND HAVE AS MANY ABORTIONS AS ANY ONE ELSE YOU LIAR, MAY BE MORE. GOD KNOWS REPUBLICANS LOVE THEIR HOOKERS.

IF YOU WANT TO OVERTURN ROE V WADE THAN PASS LAWS TO MAKE ADULTERY AND ANY PREMARITAL SEX PUNISHABLE BY DEATH BY STONING.

Let me just say MOST Americans about 3/4ths support Roe v. Wade including republicans.

Also if you have not adapted at least 5 crack babies to keep them from being aborted than you are NOT doing your part.

Please shut up turning this into religion v left, SHAME ON YOU. Yea GOD HATES Democrats or liberals? SHUT UP!

**********
I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, you sacrilegious hypocrite, shut up shut up shut up, in the name of the Lord!
**********


Than the article talks about someone on the top of Tibet mountain, in jungle that never had a chance to hear of Jesus? What about the retarded person who has no mental capacity?? What about the baby that dies during normal birth to parents that want the child??? Good questions and I have answers to this, but I'm not going to do a bible study here, especially some one who wants to be vain, pompous, boastful and self righteous and LIE. Let me say YOU ARE NOT GOD!


The artical talks of abortion. WHAT THE HECK??????????? How did we get from those in remote locations who never heard of Jesus and are the saved, to this. Are you saying a 6 week old embryo with no nervous system or beating heart is going to hell if they abort it? Please point that out to me in the Bible.


Look at national polls of Democrats and Republicans, THE DIFFERENCE between those who support Roe v Wade VERY SMALL. Most REPUBLICANS support Roe v Wade!

Independents are right there with Dems and GOP in supporting Roe v Wade. So the LEFT v RIGHT bull is a LIE for political reasons. Heck kill'em Rudy is your top GOP choice for 2008.

SO THE LEFT IS FOR DEATH IS A LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE, YOU GOSH DARN LIAR. REPUBLICANS ARE HAVING AS MANY ABORTIONS AS ANYONE, MAY BE MORE.

MOST AMERICANS, OVER 2/3RD'S DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TELLING WOMAN WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR BODY. LESS ARE FOR LATE TERM, BUT STILL OVERWHELMING FOR CHOICE.

I'M SORRY YOU LIVE IN AMERICA, A FREE DEMOCRACY! MAY BE YOU SHOULD MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY WHERE YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE BETTER.


RUDY YOUR FRONT RUNNING REPUBLICAN SAYS WOMAN SHOULD CHOOSE NOT GOVERNMENT. REALLY THE BIG 2008 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IS A SERIAL ADULTERER, MARRIED 6 TIME BETWEEN HIM AND WIFE 3 AND SUPPORTS A COP WITH MOB-CRIME TIES.... SAYS FAMILY VALUES TO ME! WOW, GOD IS FOR THE GOP AND AGAINST DEMS, WHO DA THUNK IT.

PLEASE REPUBLICANS ARE SINNERS AND HAVE AS MANY ABORTIONS AS ANY ONE, MAY BE MORE.

TERRY Schiavo? LOOK WHAT THE ASININE GOP SENATE AND CONGRESS DID WITH THAT, THEY LIED LIED LIED AND LIED TO PANDER TO THE FAR RADICAL RELIGIOUS RIGHT THAT WANTS TO OVER-THROW THE GOVERNMENT TO GET THEIR FUNDAMENTALIST IDEAS THROUGH. SCARY!!!!!!!

Doctor?/Senator Bill Frist said Terry Schiavo is fine!!! HE NEVER SAW HER, LIAR LIAR LIAR. THE AUTOPSY SHOWED HER BRAIN TO BE SHRIVELED AND TOTALLY GONE, TOTALLY. SHE WAS ON A FREAKING MACHINE TO LIVE AND COULD NOT EAT!!!!! SO THE GOP GOT RIGHT IN THERE AND MADE THAT POOR MAN THE DEVIL. SHAME!

I don't get it. You want any pregnancy to go full term DAMN IT! Because GOD SAYS SO!! Really?

Many babies born today that grow to adulthood would have died 50 to 100 years ago due to normal miscarriages and higher infant mortality rates. That is Gods WAY, natural abortions by God. So if we should not interfere than screw prenatal care.

You want to save people on machines indefinitely that are beyond hope and have no brain activity, even though 50 or 100 years they would have died. GOD'S WAY! Basically you are playing God. But you ARE FOR war and killing for no reason (well except getting access to LOTS of oil and saving political face).

DOES YOUR HYPOCRISY HAVE NO BOUNDS?

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY NO ABORTION OR KEEPING VEGETABLES ALIVE? OK LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION? THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE EITHER.


THIS IS AMERICA, THIS IS A FREE NATION A NATION WHERE YOU, AUTHORITARIAN IDIOT FAR RIGHT CONSERVATIVES DON'T GET TO TELL PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE, DIE OR HAVE SEX. SORRY FOOL, YOU NEED TO GO LIVE IN THE MOUNTAINS OF AFGHANISTAN WITH THE TALIBAN IF YOU WANT THAT.

A video on the web shows a very young teen age girl STONED TO DEATH, the old testament way, by Kurds because she ran away from home to marry a Muslim man of a different sect. She was in hiding for 9 weeks until her family convinced her she was forgiven. The men of the town killed her. The video show them throwing very large cinder blocks on her back on her lifeless body and kicking her head that had a pool of blood under it. this went on for 9 minutes as her limb body responded to the blows like a hunk of meat. Religion is not always good.

Shut up shut up shut up trying to make politics ans religion one, it is evil and I rebuke you as a misguided foolish person to make this politics.

It's very simple, we live in a democracy that puts high value on freedom, personal privacy, rights and freedoms. If you don't like it too bad you are a minority, go pray. God is all powerful. God does not want you to make governments, but follow the government if its with in God's law. America is NOT forcing anyone to HAVE and abortion, so you are fine.

If you want to stamp out abortions, than PRAY.

If you want to stamp out abortions, than work with civic groups and church groups to help woman and men not produce un-wanted pregnancies (e.g., birth control).

If you want to stamp out abortions go to poor neighborhoods educate them and pass out birth control (condoms). Of course the Catholics (Oh Brother) don't want people to have a condom because its in the BIBLE? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.....THEY ARE MAKING IT UP. Catholics protect and cover up priest that molest little boys and girls, so their moral authority is shot with me.

If you want to stop abortions than adapt at least 5 kids each. EVERY YEAR! Not healthy babies by Crack babies or start a foster home for mentally ill and challenged children with YOUR BIG LIBERAL REPUBLICAN HEART (Hypocrite).

How about you go out and do this evangelical anti-abortion outreach every evening and every weekend all days to save babies. Stop trying to change Roe v Wade and think you are doing anything. Put your effort where you mouth is.

What if we don't abort 1.2 mil babies a year? Lets say the states would have to take care of the 12,000 million in 10 years. Hummmmm what 9 TRILLION DOLLARS for that program? Yea let's MAKE, FORCE WOMAN TO HAVE KIDS, Mr. Taliban.

How are you going to enforce this no abortion LAW! Arrest woman and put them in prison. How about execute them! Yea that is it.

I'll say all the platitudes and I believe them. I hate abortion; it's a terrible choice and its sad. However we live in a free country.

God Bless America and bless those with a hard choice that they may see you love and hope and go through with the pregnancy.

May God change those like Phil Harris and those that make this about politics be shown there hypocrisy and self righteous arrogance against the love you have shown them and the world.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? HE WOULD WORK ON YOUR HEARTS NOT PASS MANS LAW. YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE MORALITY.

IF YOU WANT TO OVERTURN ROE V WADE THAN PASS LAWS TO MAKE ADULTERY AND ANY PREMARITAL SEX PUNISHABLE BY DEATH BY STONING.

CHRISTIAN LOVE
It is always amusing to me how many people totally miss the message of Jesus. He said this would be so. Christianty is about the love God has for us as his children, and we should have one for another. How it must pain our creator to see how we act. We act that way not because of God or any religion, but because of a sin nature that is in each of us. We have a free will to live as we wish, but there are always consequences to actions. We kill unborn babies because of sin and what we call convience. You can use all the fancy words you like, but life starts when the mother and father come together at conception. Who would have ever thought we would kill 40 million of our own children since 1973? No wonder some people have turned from God, and our nation is in such a mess. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Yep, we in American have shown God exactly what we think of him, and we are paying the price. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the (life), no one comes to the father but by me. John 14:6

You folks replying to Lily
are wasting your time, and Lily enjoys it. She does her driveby and gets her kicks out of stirring things up. Her mind is made up, don't confuse her with facts.

Is the left wing evil?
If you ask one of them they will most likely ask you to define evil. I think that Phil's article does that quite well. We are born with an inate sense of what is good and what is evil or bad. If you don't know right from wrong then you are a danger among civilized people. You will most likely grow up to be a career politician.

I tried once to argue the abortion issue with a leftist and told her that calling herself a pro-choicer doesn't describe what her true beliefs are. You are either pro-life or anti-life. Calling yourself pro-choice is like putting lipstick on a pig, it doesn't change a thing.

Those who prefer abortion rather than give birth treat the embryo as if it were a medical problem which they have the right to take care of. They treat this gift from God as if it were a tumor that must be removed in order to save their life.

God will deal with these murderers in his own good time, but meanwhile, don't you think that we who stand by and allow this mass genocide to continue will not also have to answer for our silence? I've heard it before and I believe it; God's blessings no longer flow upon this once-great country because we have abandoned the unborn.

o lilly, lilly
thanks for opening up your thoughts. The article was about God-given life, that people in this country have seared their consciences as to where and when does human life begin. You see there is a God, He is known in creation , think, every design has a designer, and every thing made has a maker, He is known by the "conscience" as stated in the post, God's laws are written in peoples hearts, and lastly, the Bible, which contains in writing the moral law, and God's prescription for those who have broken it, has anyone kept the 10 commandments? The Bible teaches Jesus paid for our transgessions by taking our place in punishment on the cross. We have all offended a Holy God! To ignore, is to one's own peril, and to ignore the horrible practice of abortion, that innocent life is being exterminated is what has spawned the "culture of death". To equate what our duly elected president has done along with the "majority" of congress (including Mrs. Bill Clinton), authorizing accountablity to a murderous tyrant who was responsible for thousands of deaths and would not abide with terms of surrender in the first Gulf war, is just not quite in the same ball-park. The first,abotion, is about unadulteratd murder, the latter is justice, and by not acting in defense of innocent human lives when one has the power, would be "helping evil along", to the detriment of harm to people in that part of the world, and with just a little bit of forsight, (helping those pesky terrorists, remember ummh 9/11) protecting us here in the homeland. May God help us!

RightWing = Culture of America's Future
Hey, Lilly. You really need to get your facts straight.
1. There have been FAR FEWER deaths, comparatively, in the Iraq war, than MOST other wars we've fought, and in far LESS time. No one here rejoices in the death of an America soldier, least of all conservatives. But 3,726 is hardly close enough to demand a withdrawal.
2. Conservatives DO NOT want to round up our immigrant population and have them deported -- we want our ILLEGAL immigrant population, those who cross over the borders ILLEGALLY, deported. What is it about the word ILLEGAL that you moonbats just cannot seem to understand? I guess being people of such loose morals, its a foreign word to you, hmm?

In response to Lilly
Thank you so much for shedding the crocodile tears over soldiers!
Where were you when the 'peace dividend' was driving many of us into debt and food stamps?

Guess you didn't care then, since I didn't hear any liberals crying their eyes out.

Which is why I believe that the only reason most liberals/progressives CLAIM to care now is that by doing so, they can use soldier welfare as a tool for dismantling policies they don't like.


YouDoMakeMeLaugh
Hey, YouDoMakeMeLaugh -- you really DO make me laugh! You apparently think so highly of yourself that you posted your same exact opinion TWICE!
As for this spreading of the culture of death via religion, and George Bush alledgedly spreading evil . . . next time you post, please be certain to quote the page and paragraph out of the "Moonbat's Guide to Complete Idiocy" book that you obviously quote from, Mmmkay?

Right-wing Culture of Death
Go to washingtonpost.com and scroll down to the lower right-hand corner then click onto "Faces of the Fallen". You can personally view the faces of the (as of May 6) 3,726 Americans who have paid with their lives for the arrogance of the Bush administration.

This figure, of course, does not touch the tens of thousands of wounded and maimed American military, or, as it were, the death of their former lives. Nor does it touch the death of of Iraqi citizens and of their civilization.

Meanwhile, here on townhall, a day doesn't pass without posts urging more death: the killing, bombing, "nuking", flattening, and "return[ing] to the Stone Age" of other nations, with special focus on all that have Muslim citizens residing therein.

International cooperation is mocked. Diplomacy is called "starry-eyed". Violence is routinely recommended. The ethos seems to be that we will bring about the death and threatened death of as many as necessary to assure our absolute control of the earth and its people.

Closer to home, many conservatives want to see our immigrant population rounded up and deported. Recently I read a poster's thought that the United States should be surrounded with a motion-sensitive field and automatic weapons that would instantly kill anyone moving across it. The resulting piles of bodies would be trucked across the Mexican border and dumped.

Not only Muslims and immigrants are to be targeted by the righteous. A regular townhall poster often invites readers to enjoy his/her serialized online novella, an interesting view into that poster's fantasy life, in which conservative "Patriots" become vigilantes who murder the ruling "Socialists" by various means, the favorite being shooting in the head, dismemberment of the body, and feeding the body parts to dogs.

And always, first and foremost, conservatives love personal weaponry. It takes little to evoke their recitation of gun specs, which they love to say over and over like a rosary. Their vision of society is that all is controlled by the threat of death, he who shoots first being the one always in control.

While much more can be said, we can see already the enormous evidence that the right wing, not the left, wallows in a culture of death. So Harris' silly essay fails on two counts. 1) It presents an idea that cannot be supported by real-world evidence available to all and, 2) its content does not support its title. My impression is that Harris had nothing to say and was in a hurry. Whoever paid him for this piece of baloney deserved better value for the money.

Oops
Athiest = atheists

Who is intolerant?
In the beginning an athiest decreed, "There is no god." and it was so.

There is overwhelming evidence for a creator for anyone who chooses to see the evidence. Choosing to not believe that you were created does not in any way diminish the existence of God. Atheists seem to fancy themselves too sophisticated to believe in God, and boldly decree that it was, and continues to be, those intolerant religious people (translated, "Christians") who have killed most people throughout history. Yet, it was tyrant atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong who murdered more than 100 million people. Despite what self-righteous atheists might believe, it is not self-evident that pesky, backward, God-believing people are responsible for the all woes of the world. Decreeing that wars are caused by people of God does not make it so.

A 2600-Mile Drive??!!
Moving right along from the culture of death, I'm from the government and I'm here to brighten your day. (I made up the part about the government.) Here's some samples from today's offering at Campaign2008Victory:

After a few more years of Harry Reid, Nevada will be lucky if it's still a state. Now, I known what it means to say a human life is clinging to a thin Reid.

If you're in California, you can visit either by clicking your mouse on my name above or by driving 2600 miles to Ambridge, Pa. The choice is yours, and I know you'll choose wisely.

steve
ambridge, pa

The Left Sails Without a Compass
Harris has got it right. The left stands for death, not only because of its uncanny reverence for abortion but also as environmentalists--earth lovers--who ultimately believe that there are too many people on earth and that it would be a good idea if several millions just disappeared so that Gaia, their god, could prosper. Of course, in the end the "sophisticated" leftists' philosophy leads to their own extinction. They love death and will meet it gladly and along with their demise will die their evil life-negating philosophy.

Psalm 14:4-6
"Will those who do evil never learn? They eat up my people like bread and wouldn't think of praying to the Lord. Terror will grip them, for God is with those who obey him. The wicked frustrate the plans of the oppressed, but the Lord will protect his people."

The illusion is:
My sense is that the left, since it has no objective anchor morally, will eventually justify infanticide through "the quality of life" argument or "we have too many males" or "we have too many females"--in other words, for no particular reason at all such as "I don't like you."
But I don't just consign the left to this kind of thinking. If we don't live under God's authority, whatever our political stripe, we'll eventually land up there because that's the nature of the evil that lurks within us. Which is the whole point of Christ's death. He and His kingdom are what gives us any real hope for this world and those in it.

False
More people have died throughout history from disease, non-religious wars, genocide induced by athiests, and numerous other non-religious affiliated events (natural disasters, etc.) than under the "illusion" of a God as you say.

I'm not quite sure what evil Bush is spreading in the name of God. If you are referring to the war we are fighting against people who want to kill us, then that hardly seems evil to me.

As far as the abortion issue is concerned, it is quite simple. The majority of people, if not all of them, know that life begins at conception. You can try to convince yourself it doesn't, but that proves Phil's point that you are lieing to yourself.

Here in the
sophisticated, diverse US we're going to be debating ecology, abortion, and various "rights" while another 10 million Spanish-speakers night walk across the border and Muslims fan out from Brooklyn and Dearborn under cover of the Bill of Rights to blow up the debaters.

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