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Thursday, June 12, 2008
Peter J. Wirs :: Townhall.com Columnist
For Those of Us Who Care, Saturday is Flag Day
by Peter J. Wirs
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


It may not be much of a deal to most Americans, but to we Philadelphians, Saturday is Flag Day. Betsy Ross was once a member of my church, Old St. George’s (America’s first and world’s oldest Methodist Church). Contrary to what the National Park Service contends, there is concrete proof she crafted the first American Flag. Philadelphians will gather for an observation in front of her home on Arch Street.

Another tradition is the annual radio broadcast "I am Your Flag" by Bob Nelson, aired on KYW 1060 AM, Philadelphia’s All-News station. KYW NewsRadio and its anchors are an institution matched perhaps only by its sister station, 1010 WINS in New York City, but that is a column for another day. You can listen to the famed broadcast by going to KYW1060.com. For all Americans who believe that patriotism is more than a four-letter word, here is "I am Your Flag."

Traditionalists say I was born of a woman's hand -- fashioned from bits of colored cloth by a seamstress in a small house in Philadelphia, a year after the new country was born.

Historians are less certain of my origin. Yet, no one doubts my existence.

I was created out of necessity to serve as the emblem of a people whose experiment in nationhood was as unique as the arrangement of my stars and stripes.

I have proved my adaptability to change. I've accommodated growth.

I've stood up to time and troubles. I fluttered in the Fall air with General Washington and his loyal French allies at Yorktown. My fabric was shredded by cannonballs from British frigates, in the War of 1812, and I was carried in triumph by Andy Jackson at New Orleans.

The British could see me clearly in the mists of "dawn's early light," waving from the standards at Fort McHenry.

I've witnessed turmoil and bitterness, even lost some of my glory in mid-century in a war between brothers, but I was restored as a nation's emblem at Appomattox.

I traveled West with the new frontier. I flew from the headlamps of the Iron Horse in Utah. I was with the prospectors at Sutter's Mill, with the cavalry against cattle rustlers, with the Rough Riders at San Juan Hill.

I crossed the Marne with the doughboys anxious to make the world safe for democracy.

I was with brave GIs storming the beaches at Normandy. I was raised over a shell-pocked hilltop at Iwo Jima and I stood by the grim-faced negotiators at Panmunjom. I was on that last helicopter from Saigon and with the men and women of Operation Desert Storm.

I have been around in victory and defeat. I've seen pleasure and pain.

I was raised over the rubble of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

I've been folded smartly by soldiers and handed to weeping widows. I've covered the coffins of those who've served country and community.

I also decorate bandstands and concert halls. I am saluted in parades, in schools and at ball parks.

I am part of political campaigns, high holidays and ice cream socials.

I fly from skyscrapers and bungalows. I've been to the moon and the ocean floor.

I am everywhere my people are. I am saluted and, occasionally, scorned. I have been held with pride and I have been ridiculed, because I am everything my people are: proud, angry, happy, sad, vengeful, argumentative, ambitious, indifferent.

I was created to serve a people in struggle and a government in change.

There are now more stars in my blue field than there were in the beginning and, if need be, there's room for more.

But, those red and white stripes remain as they've always remained, clearly visible through the struggle -- the symbol of the "land of the free and the home of the brave."

I am your past. I am your future. I am your flag.

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About The Author
Peter J. Wirs is currently the Chairman & Co-Trustee of the Republican Leadership Trust as well as the incoming President of the National Conference of Public Officials. The views and opinions found in this article represent the author's views and opinions and not those of any institution or organization with which the author is affiliated.
 
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couldn't get past the first sentence
without making a grammatical error.

Maybe it's intentional - you know, like rope-a-dope, to keep us from focusing on the usual substance of his columns?

Everything after the second paragraph was much better than usual, though...


Extra bonus - no mention of McCain or Specter.

Hey, Loppy! (1 of 2)
Norman, here! Your #1 Fan!

Ah, "for those of us who care . . ."

You CARE. How nice for you. Funny thing is, it seems that every time I hear the words "I care" when I trace them back to their source, I find a liberal picking my pocket. . . .

If the shoe fits, Weirdiwirs . . .


So, you LOVE Ol' Glory AND you CARE!

A real "twofer."


"Senator Puffenstuff announced today that he would not consider an amendment to balance the budget. 'I don't know about the rest of you, but for those of us who CARE about the future of this country, who UNDERSTAND the need to invest in our children, it is unthinkable to take food our of children's mouths by cutting school lunches, to put hard-working farmers and steelworkers--the backbone of this country--out of work by allowing their jobs to be sent overseas.

CONT.

Hey, Loppy! (2 of 2)
CONT.

"I know not what others may choose, but as for me, give me pork or give me death!"

Yer a regler Patrick Henry, Herr Crooked Cranium.

Others of this ilk:
"I don't know about you war-mongers, but those of us who CARE if the world survives an other generation want to ELIMINATE nuclear weapons . . ."

"Sure, let the children of unwed mothers stay in substandard day-care! Those of us who CARE favor federal support for . . ."

You get the idea.

This is an old liberal trick, to tie support for something that anyone with half a brain supports with one hand, while picking the person's pocket with the other.

So thank you for providing more evidence--if any were needed--that you're just another NE liberal RINO.

What's next? A story about the time Cap'n Johnny got extra beatings at the Hanoi Hilton for fashioning a tiny American flag out of strips of bambootree bark (the red strands dyed, naturally, with the heroic shirt chaser's own blood).

Since you're willing to prove your humble admiration of our glorious red, white, and blue by vaingloriously pretending to BE our national colors, which all conservatives hold in a reverent awe that a sell-out RINO like you could not begin to comprehend, why not add this line:

"I have been burned in effigy countless times . . ."

It has a certain ring to it (the difference being that those who burn the FLAG in effigy should be summarily beaten to a bloody pulp).

It also has the advantage of likely being truer than you know. You ARE the Bizzaro Patriot, the negative image of everything that an American should be.

FIN

So soon
another one from Wirs.

I am kinda embarrassed for him.

He may have pulled this out of the school work his mom saved when he was in fourth grade?

It's certainly a new tack.

Norman
"We are moving towards a global currency. Robert Pastor said it was necessary for an economic crisis to occur in order to move towards a regional government. They are openly stating they are devaluing the dollar and creating inflation."

"Larry Kudlow is a propagandist and he knows full well he is lying to you."


This is from someone's post on the Kudlow article today. The last sentence is true and why I don't like him.

Correction
"heroic skirt chaser's" not "heroic shirt chaser's"

To Anna: Thanks again for providing more Kudlow info.

Norman
Robert Pastor is one of the authors of "Building a North American Community". CFR had it featured on their website a while back. I believe CFR published it.

"When the leaders of Canada, Mexico, and the US met in Texas recently (Bush's SPP meeting in 2007) they underscored the deep ties and shared principles of the three countries. The Council-sponsored Task Force appluads the announced "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, but propses a more ambitious vision of a new community by 2010 (!) and specific recommendation on how to achieve..."

This was from their website. They have switched from saying NAU to North American Community. Like maybe we won't get it?

Whatever


I am seriously embarrassed for Peter on this one. Grade school material.

I am off to bed...Cheers!

Norman and Anna

Hey, the mutant may have written a poor column, but it was a tribute to our flag.

Also, this IS better than his last few columns.

Do you think, he might even have someone read the comments to him?


Is it just me...
...or have others noticed that around midnight,Townhall is populated by werewolves,walking brain deads,and ladies of the evening?

The author of the column made an attempt to honor our flag and country this coming flag day,and on the whole did a very good job of it.For his efforts,he recieves scorn.I am not familiar his writing,but then again I am not a vampire either.

Thank you,Mr Wirs,you expressed my sentiments exactly.I guess I have lived too long.

I'm with Nam65-66
I hear ya and agree.

There have been articles Wir has written that I did not agree with, at least not completely, but he has made an honest effort here to write a patriotic piece for Flag Day.

Whether he's more liberal or more conservative is irrelevant.

What he has written in the past is irrelevant.

If you do love America and what it stands for, and you honor our flag, you should give Wirs credit for attempting to write a column about our flag.

Liberal or conservative, we are all Americans.

Many of the comments I have read above are the sort of things I would expect to hear from the high school crowd, not from mature, thoughtful adults.

Mr. Wirs, thank you for writing this article.

Okay This Time, Pete
This article is olkay but don't take this as a compliment. Just stay on track and don't try to get cute with words. I'm measuring your articles against those of Jackie Gingrich, and you are ahead - but by not much.

Nam and Curtal (1 of 2)
If this were Wirs' first piece, I would probably give it three stars (five for the sentiment with two penalties of one star each for poor writing and bad grammar), and not think any more of it.

As they say, though, context is key, and that's where both of you worthy gentlemen have, with all due respect, completely missed the boat.

Wirs has ONE purpose here: to soften up conservatives to vote for John McCain. That's it.

Otherwise, even TH wouldn't let somebody this dense and illiterate graces its pixelated pages.

The Flag Day piece is self-congratulatory in the extreme ("For Those of Us Who Care," as if there is any real American who doesn't revere Ol' Glory) and the worst type of moral posing.

Perhaps the next column will be about how, gosh darn it!, he's not going to stand around while people run down baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet! ("For those of us who CARE about baseball, hot dogs . . .")

If you want to call genuine conservatives werewolves, walking brain deads, and ladies of the evening, feel free to align yourself with the RINO.

I haven't seen either of you on the Wirs threads much, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you haven't figured out Wirs' game.

Check out his piece on how outraged he was the Jeremiah Wright said "God d*mn America." Who WASN'T outraged? It's like saying "I can't speak for my opponent, but I'm actually AGAINST kicking puppies and throwing helpless kittens into meat grinders."

CONT.


Nam and Curtal (2 of 2)
CONT.

Step One: Feign moral outrage by voicing strident support for something that everyone with any sense is already for (strawman).

Step Two: Cast your opponents in an unfavorable light (ad hominem).

Step Three: Try to sneak an otherwise unpalatable proposition past your opponents' objections by wrapping yourself in your moral superiority (or, in this case, by LITERALLY wrapping yourself in the flag).

Liberals have been doing this for years. I'm honestly not trying to be snotty, but I'm truly surprised that you don't recognize the pattern.

Wirs is a RINO, a moral poseur, and faux-con. He is the enemy, no matter how much red meat he throws to people he thinks are stupid enough to forget who he is and what he stands for. This is not the first thing he's written on TH, nor is it the first time he has followed up a RINOgram with a piece of badly written red meat for the red-staters.

I'm surprised you gentlemen don't see that.


Sincerely,

Norman the Brain Dead Werewolf


FIN

Vito
Bush and his policies and his administration have nothing to do with Flag day and honoring what America stands for.

America and its ideals are more than just the two terms of one president.

You can dislike a current administration but still be proud of America and what she stands for.

I detested the presidency of Carter, but I didn't suddenly hate America because of him.

I detested the presidency of Clinton, but I didn't turn on my country and spit on the flag and slam my country because an idiot was in office.

If you hate Bush, then feel free to criticize him all you want.

When you slam the flag and say that it holds no meaning for you, what you are saying is you don't believe in liberty and freedom.

You don't believe in anything that America stands for and what the flag represents.

That's what you, in effect, are saying.

You're not slamming Bush by attacking the flag, you are attacking America itself.

And for that, all I can say is, go to hell.

Norman
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Admittedly, Wirs is not one of the columnists that I tend to read. I'm not familiar with him at all. I only read this because the topic caught my eye.

But here's the rub.

If he's a rino, so what? If he's a genuine liberal, so what? Everyone has good and bad points. This was not the greatest written article, I'll give you that. But it is written in honor of the American Flag and what the Flag represents, so I have to at least give him an A for Effort.

I would like to think, on a day like Flag Day, that all those who love America and what it stands for could put aside their differences and spend the day in celebration of our national symbol and what it means.

Therefore, I think your criticisms of Wirs' past articles is irrelevant and uncalled for on this thread. This thread is about Flag Day and what it means.

I could very well find myself in opposition to Wirs ideas, were I to read more of his columns. But when he writes about our flag and what it means, I find that he and I at least have a love of our country in common, and I have to commend him for making the attempt to write a patriotic piece.

Ratas y Ratones (1 of 2)
The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, and it is all too easy to play the sunshine patriot.

I was in the Army (active duty and reserves) for 15 years. About a year ago, I got cut off in traffic by a young fellow with a "miltary police" sticker on the back of his SUV. My eight year old was in the car with me. I raised my hands in frustration (like the native New Yorker I am, but with no obscene accompanying gesture) and he flipped me the bird.

I followed him until he parked, and asked him--quite calmly--why he had flipped me the bird. He said "f**k off, fat man (in fairness, I AM rather rotund, alas . . .)--shut up and get the f**k out of here!"

My son was covering his ears at this point, and I decided to make a point. I just sat in my convertible and told the drunken fellow that as a young man representing the US Military, he should be ashamed of himself for acting like a thugs. He told me to shut up again, and warned me that I'd better get moving if I knew what was good for me.

"What if I don't?"

He then proceeded to tell me about all of the kids he had killed in Iraq, and all of the s**t he had seen, blah, blah, blah. I have spoken to a lot of combat veterans (including my late step-father who made four combat jumps with the 82nd in WWII), and the ONE thing I noticed about each and every one of them was that they NEVER talked trash, so I knew that this guy was a phony.


CONT.

Ratas y Ratones (2 of 2)
CONT.

"You ain't been nowhere. You ain't done nothin'," I replied. "No one who's been in it talks like a punk about it. And you never told me what you were going to go if I didn't drive off." I remained calm, both in speech and body language, but looked him straight in the eye.

That clinched it. He saw that I wasn't afraid of him, and that I didn't buy his BS. He walked over to my car (and believe me I had my foot on the gas, in case! :-) ), apologized to me and my son, shook my hand and skulked away into the considerable crowd that had by now gathered to watch our little fireworks show.
Point being: The wolf (or, in Wirs' case, the jackel) who is readily tamed with a skilfully managed cudgel will only be encouraged with an offer of mutton.

Wirs is the enemy. He deserves no credit for wrapping himself in the flag, and gets no quarter from me for playing the sunshine patriot.

This is just like the Jeremiah Wright "column," in which he bravely took a stand against a man that 99.9% percent of TH readers believe is raving lunatic racist.

I might have considered refraining from bashing Wirs this time, had he not played that little liberal trick again.

As it is, he gets it with both barrels.

FIN

to Curtal Friar
your sentiments are appreciated.

I recommend reading Wirs' columns from May 13 and May 19 for a sense of the kind of drivel to which the posts to this column are really responding.

I think the May 13 one was the first Wirs column that I ever read. Since then, any new columns of his are now my top priority - I take a perverse pleasure in his desperate attempts to get real conservatives / libertarians to think that McCain is their guy. Plus, all the bad grammer amuses me.

Curtal Friar
As I wrote, if there were no larger context, I would probably just have skimmed the article, found it to be poorly written but with an admirable sentiment, and moved on.

Wirs is not here by accident. He's the RINO Ambassador to Red State Conservatavia. I'm quite serious. He's the one they've sent to try to get us to accept McCain and the general rebranding of conservatism as neo-conservatism and the GOP as Liberalism-Lite.

The GOP can kiss my ample posterior; my party left me. They can go hang.

I will NOT give up on conservatism, however. I will fight to the last to defend it from RINOs like Wirs. There are many like me.

To give the matter a bit more perspectivce, if Castro (Fidel or Raul) started singing "God Bless America" at a Fourth of July cookout on the National Mall, I'd boo the SOB, not least because I wouldn't want the b*stard to desecrate a song I hold dear just by singing the thing.

Think about it. Would you thank a drunken, lecherous lout for taking your daughter to the prom?

Why then should I thank a RINO for playing the sunshine patriot with the country and flag I have pledged my life to defend?

I personally respect honest liberals like Joe Lieberman (however foolish I may find their ideas) and always give a worthy opponent his due, but Wirs has worn out his welcome. A clear pattern has emerged: he denigrates conservatives, then when we thrash him, he writes something half-way conciliatory, and when we STILL thrash him, he throws us some red meat (like this column and the Jeremiah Wright piece).

Wirs and his ilk are offering no "cease fire" in their war against "three-leg" Reagan Conservatism, i.e. their campaign to rebrand conservatism as RINOism.

They declared this war. They attacked US first. I intend to give them no quarter, no smarter how sweetly they smile or how earnestly they plead with us when we have them on the ropes.

RINOs delendi sunt.

No mercy. No quarter.

Correction
I was doing reasonably well there until the end . . .

"no matter how sweetly they smile"

NOT

"no smarter how sweetly they smile"


Ooops.

MMC

Ironic too that Philadelphia is
kicking out the Boy Scouts.

The BSA is one of the few groups that really teach youngsters about the flag. How to treat it, how to raise it and lower it, how to salute it, how to dispose of it, how to fly it, on and on.

Without the BSA, most of these boys wouldn't know anything about the flag, and yet Philly wants to treat the BSA like bigoted bullys. So much for patriotic Philadelphia.

Ratas y Ratones
By the way, glad you're on board with the "mutant" thing.

I knew you'd come around . . .

;-)

Cheers!

Norman
Hello Norman.

Just wanted to say that you not only make some good points, but in excellent form as well.

Loved the daughter/prom analagy.

Good stuff.

Western Bondbeam
I was in the middle of writing a post complimenting you on the pointing out how "patriotic" Philadelphia has treated the BSA, but the post seems to have vanished.

So, please consider yourself duly complimented. Nice riposte to the Bizarro Patriot.

After being called a brain-dead werewolf earlier in this thread, I also appreciated your encouragement and kind words.

Cheers!

Curtal
If Wirs hadn't used the phrase "For those of us who care", I might be inclined to accept your "put aside our differences" approach.


Had Wirs been more humble in his entry, it would have worked better for me. Plus using Philadelphia (especially in the wake of recent Boy Scouts fiasco) as patriotic is a joke.

Norman
Well, as I've said, this is the first article that I remember reading by Wirs. It caught my eye because of title.

If he has done all that you say, and is what you say, then I agree with your viewpoint and would doubtless feel that way myself.

I doubt I will be reading his articles in the future. None of his previous stuff ever caught my eye, and it's unlikely his articles will in the future.

One thing I am thinking though is this: Perhaps the best thing would be for everyone to not read his articles and not comment on them.

If he noticed after a while that there were no comments being made, and no record of anyone even clicking on his articles, perhaps either he would go elsewhere, or Townhall would quit publishing them as that would look like wasted space.

western bondbeam
ok, ok...I stand admonished. You and Norman make good points. In my defense, I have never read Wirs before. I also did not read his article that closely, as his composition skills are not the best. I just skimmed it. I was simply willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for writing what looked to be a patriotic piece.

I knew nothing about his previous articles at all.

That being said, I doubt I will be reading him in the future.

I take back what I posted earlier. If he is what you and Norman and the others say he is, then I would not appreciate a token gesture like this either.

I'm sorry!

I'm sorry!

I'm sorry!

I throw myself on the mercy of the court!


Curtal Friar
No worries, friend. That's what I figured, so I tried to be measured in my response, especially as I have appreciated your thoughtful comments elsewhere on TH.

Wirs is a slippery little eel; CVN65 has taught me the importance of not letting him slip and slide away under cover of this sort of insincere "chum" that he throws to the us circling sharks.

He's lunch, and we aim to have him.

No mercy for pseudo-cons.

No quarter for RINOs.


That said, if you will consider me one of the "jurors," I certainly vote to acquit the "accused."

How could you know, if you hadn't read the rest of his RINO oeuvre, and thus come to understand the context?

:-)

Cheers!


Curtal Friar--On Ignoring Weirdiwirs
We tried that, or at least I did.

I actually suggested on two different threads that we try to get TH to pull this clown by voting "one star" for every column, but leaving no comments.

I was outvoted, but they were right. I actually came to agree with the anti-Norman consensus that it was better (and a lot more fun) to keep bashing him.

His RINO droppings (aka "columns") are both a lightning rod and a pressure valve for conservative discontent.

He represents perfectly the RINO enemy: overconfident, ignorant, unintelligent, illiterate, condescending, and wrong about nearly everything.

These people want to rebrand conservatism, and this is the buffoon they sent to try to win us over.

If they want to make him a sacrifical lamb, I'm happy to oblige.

Norman
Thanks to you as well.

It was good to see someone put this article into a broader context. I think both Curtal and Nam will at least approach Wirs columns through different eyes from now on.

I know I will.

Not trying to copy your sign off, but Cheers! to you too. :-)


Western Bondbeam
Thanks. I don't favor subtlety when dealing with Wirs, obviously, but it's kind of fun performing RINOectomies with the rhetorical equivalent of a chain saw.

"Blood and gore upon the floor, and me without a spoon." (Sorry. I couldn't resist. My mother, of all people, taught me that one. I guess there never was much hope for me!)

Like Nietzsche, I enjoy philosophizing with a (sledge)hammer.


;-)

The trouble is, though, that the guy just won't stay down!

If RINOism proves to be as resilient and immune to blistering criticism as Weirds is, we may be in trouble . . .

Cheers, right back at you!

Curtal
I admit, I read the article for the same reason as you and have little knowledge of Wir.

With that said, the elitist approach in the title and the first sentence talking about Philadelphia as the cornerstone of patriotism both caused the skeptic hairs to stand up on the back side of my neck.

The final nail was Norman's posts as I have found Norman to be both insightful and unique in his approach on TH so I have great respect for his stuff.

Anyhow, I aparently have been ignoring Wirs all along as I believe this is one of his first articles I have commented on. Unfortunately I am now torn on how to approach Wirs. I like the idea of ignoring, and yet I also like the idea of single starring him and commenting on his slippery approach. Hmm... What to do...

FLAG DAY PROBLEM
As an ultra conservative REAL American of white, European, Christian background, I have a real problem with the flag and Flag Day. Why? The flag is the symbol of a government that represents not me but the two major minorities, gays, Muslims, illegal invaders, Commie unionized teachers, cops and other public “workers”, etc., etc., etc. These groups and their insane white liberal allies both rob me blind and destroy my European/American culture and the once great country where I grew up. I could go on but why bother. I’ll let Jorge Bushquez, the first Mexican president “celebrate” Flag Day for me.

Flags and Other Flags
For all you socialists thinking about going to China to see the olympics, you better not burn China's flag. Did you see the 57 rules for foreigners recently posted by the Chinese government? You should read them.

First, people with "mental illnesses" are forbiddedn entrance into the country. Since all registered democrats, socialists, and other reds are mentally ill (the debate is over, the evidence is incontrovertable), perhaps you should change your party affiliation temporarily so as not to arouse suspicion.

And if you dare burn the Chinese flag in that progressive part of the global community, you freedom loving reds will be put in jail, without the constitutional rights guaranteed by our supreme court to Muslim devils out to murder us. Bummer dude!

I think you communists should show the bravery you've shown here since 2001 and go there and protest these rules in the streets. Burn their flag too. It's your right as a citizen of the world. Don't let them push you around.

Norman
I have got to tell you you did a great job on your measured response to those attempting to paint you as a werewolf. I might have gotten a little heated but you kept it even and persuasive. Thanks for the credit but you deserve most of it anyway. Wirs must be called out every time for his perfidy. Strong work.

we're not a country anymore...
...just a market, with no borders, no common customs, values, language, religion, etc.

The free trade zealots have won out. Export our industries and import tens of millions of "turd worlders".

The Mexicans and the Mohammedans will over-run this nation, carrying their primitive, tribal cultures here and overwhelming traditional American culture.


China
JD's Best Looking Son:

No, they would just deport you. A few years ago an American student defaced some how a picture of Mao and he was deported--saying in China Mao was like a god.

But funny, many here want to put people in jail for burning the American flag. I will say, a rather imprecise form of protest.


Fairness Man
No, the flag does not represent the government....it represents America and all that Amercia stands for.

It does not represent the Bush Administration...or any other administration.

when you attack the flag, you are not attacking a particular president, you are attacking America itself and all that America represents.

Got it?

Nessus
Most people in the US speak English, and yes, even those awful Mexicans. 87% of second generation Hispanics speak English well--no different than immigrants of the past, remember the Germans? Common religion? Since when? But if you want to say all Christians are the same religion, Christianity is still the majority--vast majority--religion in the US.

Common customs? What do you mean exactly here...most seem to celebrate Christmas, even a pagan like me (or am I a heathen?), Halloween, the Super Bowl, eat hotdogs and shoot off fireworks--on July 4th, not February 7th (mostly anyway). Seems there is a good number of common customs to me.

As for destroying traditional values and going to tribulism, most Mexicans share much of traditional American values--most are conservative Catholics. Of course, people said the same thing about the Italians too. A Mohammedan was a neighbor and my real estate agent and even helped me move and one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet--of course, you'd not like him I guess since he was one of those awful Mohammedans.


Akagi
That is because burning the flag is not really a protest of a particular president....it is spitting on America itself and what America stands for.

and then gets americans really upset

it is spitting on the memory of every American who has ever fought for our country.....

it is spitting on the memory of every real American hero....and we don't take kindly to that...


CurtalFriar
Please read what I wrote. I wrote that the once proud flag in a SYMBOL of a government that is the enemy of every white, Christian, non-government union "worker" of European background - the suckers that pays all the aforementioned groups in my last post to destroy the once great country where I grew up.

Got it?

Flag Burning is wrong?
The Boy Scouts are constantly burning the US Flag. This is a community service they provide.

Burning the US Flag is the only proper way of disposing worn and torn flags. If you have a worn out flag, check with your local Boy Scout troop. They will collect them and perform the burning ceremony for you as a service to the community. Do not throw your flag in the trash.

Although it would seem the grand patriotic city of Philadelphia will have to send their old flags to another city for disposal, as they have kicked out their Boy Scout Troop. Such patriots those Philadelphians.

If someone wishes to disrespect the
US Flag, there are other ways than by burning it.

Fly it at night without a light shining on it.

Put the flag below or behind state or organizational flags in a parade or at a podium.

Fly it on the left of the podium (when facing audience) is also wrong. It should be to the left of the audience.

Flying the flag after it is worn and tattered is also disrespectful.

These are simple mistakes that can be made that disrespects the flag through ignorance.

Other more purposeful or flagrant violations are as follows:
Use it as a table cloth, cape or costume of some sort. Throw rugs or bath towels are also disrespectful uses. Throw it on the ground or in the dirt.

Fair game
And protected by the First Amendment, so if you want to say "Red white and blue, I spit on you" which was what Gregory Lee Johnson said outside the GOP convention in 1984 in Dallas, then fine. He also said this gem, "Reagan or Mondale who will it be, whoever it is it means World War III."

At the time Texas had laws against burning the US flag, the Texas flag and any Confederate flag. But since flags are burned all the time--the proper way to get rid of flags--it was his speech of basically "I hate America" that upset people and the SCOTU in Texas v. Johnson in my view correctly struck down the Texas law. It was pretty stupid of them in my view to charge him with flag desecration in any event--should have got him on outside burning without a permit or something.

As for the flag representing all of the US--well it is like the Confederate flag--it means different things to different people, it is an ambiguous symbol. To some it represents the country, those who died, etc etc, to others it represents just the government, etc. I will say again flag burning is a very ham fisted method of protest.


Fairness Man
NO.

you are wrong. The flag is not the symbol of any one group in America, or the American government.

It is the symbol of America itself.

It stands for liberty and freedom.

It represents all those who have ever fought for freedom and liberty.

Don't try to co-opt it by declaring it is the symbol of anything else.

It stands for America, and since I believe in America and what it stands for, I will proudly fly the flag in front of my house.

Got it?

CF
"It is the symbol of America itself."

To you, to others it is a symbol of the US government, its policies, to some even a symbol of racism (both those that are against racism and those for it--the Klan loves the American flag). It's meaning is as ambiguous as the various Confederate flags.

You fly the flag? Great---do you fly it at night? If you do, do you have it illuminated? Is your flag an all-weather flag, if not, do you take it down when raining, snowing, etc etc.

I assume you don't do something crass like display it on the shrubs or nailed to a tree. Yes, I've seen this.

Akagi
No, I do not fly the flag on shrubs or nailed to a tree.

Such is indeed disrespectful

lady of the night here!
I am becoming inured to being called names. But "whore" is a new one.

Not much to add to Norman's eloquent words.

It is character of the worst sort to dress up as our friend, to use the symbol of our patriotism (the flag), when your intention is to lead us to slaughter.

Brutus thy name is Wirs.



"He's lunch, and we aim to have him."



Akagi
"The flag is a symbol of America itself" only to me, Akagi?

That's an asinine statement.

How long has the flag been around?

Bush has been the president for only eight years, the flag for over 200 years.

It is not bush's symbol. It was not Clinton's symbol. It was not Reagan's or Carter's or any other president's symbol.

It is the flag of AMERICA!

Is it called the presidential flag? NO

Is it called the union flag? NO

Is it called the Klan Flag? NO

Is it called the white racist flag? NO

The flag is timeless, it has outlived every single American president and it will be around long after the politicians currently in office are gone.

It will be around for as long as America is still a country.

It's the symbol of America.

To say otherwise is to show oneself to be no more than a loud-mouthed, ignorant lout with no sense of history.

It represents all of America and all of us.

It is our flag.


BTW
As long as there's life there's hope.


"Faithful are the wounds of a friend"

or put another way...

True friends stab you in the front. Oscar Wilde



Maybe we are the best friends Wirs could ever hope to have....and he will come to see the light?



Akagi
Anyone who thinks that the American flag is racist is unworthy of consideration. We fought a Civil War in order to end slavery. America's commitment to individualism need not be defended (despite the left's best efforts to reinvigorate racism).

Those who fail to grasp our flag's symbolic significance are hopeless and ungrateful. Perhaps you'll live long enough to appreciate your liberty once you've lost it one disastrous election at a time. With Obama in power, you won't have to wait long.

Hey CF
Agaki is obviously not a loyal American. Why else would he serve as best man at Sophie's and Dogggs wedding?

Again to you
But to others it represents opression, slavery whatever. The symbol means different things to many people--why do you think Johnson burned it, because he needed to get warm on a summer day in Dallas?

And I didn't say ONLY to you, simply that is YOUR OPINION of the flag and others have a quite different opinion.

From my personal point of view, burning a piece of nylon cloth dyed in various colors and probably made in China by a factory owned by the Taiwanese is rather silly and I'd say on the converse to think the same piece of cloth has some sacred magic powers smacks of something you'd find in some lost tribe in the amazon someplace. Okay, I don't really believe people think it has sacred magic powers, but saying disrespecting it equals spiting on America or whatever is just as silly soundng and just as primative.

I bet a few hundred years from now, people will think we all quite silly spending so much time fighting over strips of nylon.

Oh care to name the only two western countries beside the US that had laws against flag burning--Nazi Germany and South Africa under the Nationalists if I recall correctly from the debate on the issue in 1988--not exactly countries I suppose you want to be compared to.

CurtalFriar-again
Please go to your dictionary and look up the word naïve. Your picture will probably be next to the definition. In the 1950’s on back the now joke flag did represent all that you blind “patriots” say it does. That was then, this is now. If you know your world history you will know that the now hated Swastika was a symbol used by many cultures for 3000 years and it had positive connotations. Old, old now disgraced Gory will soon follow down the same path. You supposed conservatives (not real conservatives like me) are as bad as the as Obama, Hillary, McCain, Bush and all the other liberals/Communists.
Please save the rest of us from all of you.

Loyal Americans
Willi Beax:

What exactly is a loyal American anyway, should I take a loyality oath like in the 1950s?

I am unaware that I was the bestman at anyone's wedding--perhaps too much sake?

And Max:

The war was fought to restore the Union, not end slavery. Few fought in the war to end slavery. Read Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley sometime--dated August 22, 1862.

Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware were all slave states and all stayed in the Union and most who fought from those states fought for the Union--unaware of any orphan brigades from Delaware at all.


Akagi
The flag is a symbol of America, and that's what it will always be, regardless of what opinions are held by uneducated America-haters.

The flag was America's symbol long before anyone currently alive, and will be such long after everyone now is dead.

Anyway, I don't know if you are a foreign national from an asian country, like some claim.
I don't know what your motivations are, but frankly after your posts here today, I really don't care.

The best thing I can say to you is, go to hell.

Curtal Friar
I love our Republic (hope we can keep it), and it's symbol the flag.


Don't feed the trolls, it will just get your blood pressure up!


Have a good day and CHEERS!

Fairness Man
Well, compared to you, Akagi is a patriotic American.

Fortunately, nutcases like you are extremely rare.

You're such a pathetic caricature of a person that it's almost funny. Almost, but not quite.

What's that? I hear your momma calling you home for your afternoon nap. Better run before you get a well-deserved spanking.

Anna
Cheers to you as well.

Glad there are some other decent people currently on this thread.


Curtail Friar
Says to the asian immigrant, here who is an anti_American enemy of the United States, akagi:
"The best thing I can say to you is, go to hell."

You got it

My last post
was not intended to be an insult to others, such as westernbondbeam and Norman.

Notice I said currently, not the whole thread.

Swastika
It still is. Often seen on images of the Buddha and placed on food products to tell you it is Buddhist-safe--kinda like a symbol for khoser food, etc. It is not exactly the same though--on the horizonal axis the left side points down and the right up and the vertical axis, the top points left and the bottom points right.

The Nazi Swastika instead of being straight, is tilted to the left.

Common in Taiwan and I guess other places to have the symbol sewed into the back of children's shirts near the collar in order to protect them and ward off evil, etc.


The Flag and Akagi
It didn't take long for Akagi and to break Godwin's Rule.

It's a shame that flying the flag so clearly indicates a conservative household to the degree that a "condemn our troops" bumper sticker reveals a liberal-owned, car.

I actually oppose a flag-burning amendment. Let the Liberals burn the flag and the Conservatives fly it.

At least Akagi has the forthrightness to express the left's true feelings. Hopefully, he can encourage his comrades to follow suit.

FairnessMan vomits:
Subject: CurtalFriar-again
Please go to your dictionary and look up the word naïve. Your picture will probably be next to the definition. In the 1950’s on back the now joke flag did represent all that you blind “patriots” say it does. That was then, this is now. If you know your world history you will know that the now hated Swastika was a symbol used by many cultures for 3000 years and it had positive connotations. Old, old now disgraced Gory will soon follow down the same path. You supposed conservatives (not real conservatives like me) are as bad as the as Obama, Hillary, McCain, Bush and all the other liberals/Communists.
Please save the rest of us from all of you.

If that's how you feel about the flag go f*ck yourself.

CF
Yes, the flag has been around a long time. Much of the flag was basically a copy of the flag of the East India Company which dates to the 1600s. The US simply removed the Union from the canton and replaced it with the 13 stars in a circle on a field of blue. I'm not sure why the East India Company ensign had 13 stripes, but the US kept the number at 13 to represent the 13 colonies (as was the # of stars).

So, yes, it has been around a long time and will no doubt be around for a long time and to you and others it is a symbol of the US, etc etc, to others it means something else.

As for going to hell, you first. But I think there are different hells based on one's faith, so not sure if we'll end up in the same one, so we might get separated. Pity, I was looking forward to spending the rest of time with you to debate the fate of nylon---not!

Yes, TS, I'm the great enemy of America sent here to cause great turmoil in the minds of good loyal Americans like yourself, you caught me.






Maximilian
Not my Comrades. I have as many problems with the left as you do. What makes you and I different as I have just as many problems with "conservatives."

I haven't seen any "condemn the troops" bumper stickers, where do you think they sale those?

I agree ---
I agree with this article and all those who think that is is an excellent tribute to our flag. Long may it fly.....

Akagi
I don't know where to purchase the bumper stickers. I haven't yearned to own one. Another winning slogan is "Bring the Troops Home... FOR COURT MARTIAL!"

It's funny how displaying the flag can be equally controversial.

Akagi, again
I, too, have some problems with some conservatives, particularly those who would let America burn rather than elect McCain simply because of disagreement on a handful of issues. Expecting your idealogical clone as president is naieve.

Akagi
Americans overwhelmingly support a ban on desecration of the flag. You call it a scrap of nylon, well the statue of David is just a piece of marble and the Mona Lisa paint on canvas. I have never thought of you as a troll before but I am starting to consider that you might well be one. It is obvious that Americans hold our flag dear and every time I see a flag disrespected I see a servicemember, fallen in the line of duty, being disrespected. Perhaps you cannot understand, whether it is your nationality or religion, but don't come here and try to pass yourself off as superior to all of the "superstitious" backward Americans. The flag has power that it derives from the American citizen. The citizens of this country believe in something and that something is greater than ourselves, greater than any other country ever born on this Earth. I usually appreciate your well-thought-out posts but you clearly are missing the mark here.

Maximillian
Then welcome to the thread that will be full of anti-McCain conservatives. Wirs is coming here to try to fatten us up for McCain but many of us will have none of it. Just as we think blacks are stupid to blindly vote for the Dems we will not follow that example and pull the (R) lever for president. Sorry, but we are done holding our noses and voting for the lesser of two evils. Collectively we will watch O'Bama win and hope that the GOP will finally get its' act together and stop running RINO back-stabbers like McCain. Wirs has insulted us, called us sore losers, threatened us with losing clout, tried the scare tactics and tried buttering us up but all to no avail. Nope, I will not vote for him and I am a Navy vet and father of four as well as a surgeon so I stand to lose a lot over the next four years. I am looking down the road past this abysmal election to a brighter future.

CurtalFriar-againX2
When non-thinking, naïve, ignorant, clueless robotic types such as you start the name calling, I know I have won the debate. I hear Rush, Hannity, Bushquez et.al. calling you to blindly wave the flag for cesspool Amerika. You need a little Michael Savage injection into that mush between your ears. Maybe he can teach you something about being a real, THINKING conservative – like ME.

The difference is
The Statue of David or the Mona Lisa is 1) Not yours (and to be fair, it wasn't Johnson's either--they ripped it down off a hotel as they walked toward the convention center before burning it) and 2) both can't be replaced. You can find dozens and dozens at the local Wal-Mart. If you have a copy of the Statue of David or Mona lisa that you own, feel free to do what you will. Should copies of the Declaration or Constitution also be banned from being torched?

If you buy the flag, in my view, you can do what you want to it. If you want to buy it to burn it, fine. But again, I think that is a big waste of your time and a pretty ham fisted method of protest.

I am sure the majority of Americans would support a way to make flag burning illegal, majorities are often wrong too and they are wrong here.

I find the gross commercial use of the flag (lines and lines of them along a road in front of a used car lot or these giant flags used by car dealerships) a much greater insult to the flag than some radical setting one a light.

As for me being a troll, hardly. A troll is one who posts usually a single outlandish post in order to spark debate and then vanishes to watch the carnage. I am here to engage in discussions.

If I was to say. "America is a sin and pox apon the world and should be erased from the earth and we can start by burning that stupid, ugly worthless piece of cloth called the US flag and I am going to go buy one today and cut it up and use it as toilet paper" and then vanished--that would be a troll. Oh, by the way, I'd advise you not to use the American flag or any flag as toilet paper--the materials aren't biodegradable and it would probably do very awful things to your plumbing.

Also don't you think it odd also to pay homage to something that is probably made in China? The flags sold at Kennesaw Mountian (Confederate and Union) are made in Taiwan.


FairnessMan
I haven't heard Savage in awhile, but I doubt he'd agree with you calling America a cesspool or regarding the flag like that. But I'd love to hear his response when you called up and said that to him--it would drive him nuts and that is a very short drive.

CVN65
In employing this suicide strategy, Conservatives are ignoring a crucial problem: how exactly does the GOP "get its act together". You first must identify the problem. Every conservative has a different opinion on what to change. Some want mass deportation of illegal immigrants, others want more domestic drilling but don't care about immigration. The demands on some of these threads are extremely specific and unreasonable.

Certainly you must depart from conservatism on at least one issue. I reluctantly disagree with the right on a very small assortment. Finding my political doppleganger won't happen. In a democracy of 300 million, no politician can "be all things to all people", he must stick to his principles and hope to satisfy "most demands from most people".

Please realize that democracy will always necessitate a vote for "the lesser of two evils". McCain has infinitely fewer "evil" qualities than his opponent. I dare say, he also stands to accomplish some good (earmark reform, heaven willing).

Akagi
You may have a point about Chinese-made American flags. I have no problem, however, "paying homage" to Taiwan and her products (American Flags included). I support Taiwan's enduring independence from China.

By the way, not all commercial use of Flags constitutes pandering. Many businesses are genuinely proud of their country and grateful for their opportunity to succeed. Try to abstain from such cynicism.

Maximilian
I agree. Voting against or not voting for a candidate that shares say 60% of your values so that a candidate that shares 10% of your values wins is rather foolish. People here dislike McCain because of McCain-Kennedy (a bill I disliked too), but would Obama's immigration policies be more restrictive than McCain's or less so?

In this state, you can vote your displeasure and vote for Barr, because McCain wins here easily--but it would be foolish to do so in a clase state--Bush won Florida by only a few more than 500 votes.


Fairnessman
Cesspool Amerika? Seems a tad harsh.

Clearly you are drinking from the "half glass of water" and are bitter the glass is emptying before your eyes. Maybe you should try serving a glass of water to someone else. That way you could be happy the glass is filling up instead of emptying out.

Akagi/Maximilian
I agree the commercial use of flags can be used both for patriotic reasons and pandering. Part of it is the cheapening of our culture and the lowering of standards.

The key for myself and I think maybe what Curtal was trying to convey is that just because my neighbor has a low standard (nailing the flag to a tree) doesn't mean I should.
(Not trying to speak for Curtal, but just what I was getting when reading his posts. Feel free to correct me here Curtal).

Part of living in the USA means I have to let my neighbor use his flag for a table cloth. I have the freedom to not eat at his table as well. Essentially, the only power I have is the power to influence through my actions and standards. Some may follow suit, others may not.

Interesting comments though regarding McCain. I am not sure what my state will do. McCain could take Michigan because the Dems might be angry with the whole primary fiasco. I won't hold my breath though as Michigan has the strong union vote (Democrat)which usually wipes out my vote. Do I vote for McCain, knowing it might be close (As Akagi brought up Florida) or do I throw one out to Barr as a protest? It will be interesting to say the least.

Western Bondbeam
I know that using the flag in an advertisement is (or at least was) a misdemeanor in NC. I was under the impression that it was actually a federal crime, but I may be wrong about that.

A friend of mine who lived in Charlotte, NC objected to the use of the American flag in some big chain bookstore (Borders, I think, or maybe Barnes and Noble) to promote a book by that lesbian nurse who was an Army Colonel (O-6) and got mustered fairly soon after "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" got rolling in 1993. My friend lodged a protest with the store manager, and was essentially told to pound salt.

He spoke to an attorney friend of his, and was informed that it was a crime in NC to use the flag as a commercial prop.

My friend informed the store, and the flag was taken down.

True story.

You Guys Have Been . . .
. . . busy while I was napping.

We've even picked up a few nuts, with anti-American froth so thick that it has apparently crawled up their noses and started eating away at their brains.

The correct response to anyone who starts in with all of that America-bashing is directions to the State Department in DC, where they can go to renounce their citizenship.

North Korea will be glad to have them. Cuba, too.

I have no patience for such nancy-boy idiots and moral buffoons. If it's so bad here, let them try life elsewhere. I have lived on three continents, and traveled to all but Australia. There is no place better than the United States, despites its obvious and admitted flaws.

I want to thank my "posse," including CVN65 (who has inspired me to give up on being a less than full-committed RINO-basher), Anna, and Western Bondbeam (with no offense intended to any friends not mentioned), who have made such astute comments on the thread.

PLEASE KEEP HITTING "ONE STAR"!!!

Loppy delendus est.
RINOs delendi sunt.

No mercy.
No quarter.

Maximillian
Opposing McCain is most definitely NOT a "suicide strategy." It is in fact just the opposite.

The GOP has been trying to define conservatism out of existence. Conservatism, NOT the GOP, is the best hope for America, which is in turn the last best hope for humanity.

Standing with a RINO like McCain is the suicide strategy. It is a strategy that will further undermine, and perhaps destroy, "three-leg" conservatism.

The GOP may reform itself, or it may not. Personally, I don't give a hang. If they do, they may be worth supporting again in the future.

If they don't, the GOP will collapse under the weight of its unmet promises, when it doesn't have the donkey of conservatism pulling its broken down cart.

Either way, conservatism must survive. The greatest threat to conservatism today is not the Dems (who are openly hostile) but the GOP and people like Wirs, who are trying to co-opt and redefine what it means to be a "conservative."

Four years is not so long. We survived Carter, and we'll survive Obama (who WILL be the next President, unfortunately).

Then, as with Reagan after Carter, conservatism will have the chance to emerge again.

MENSHEVIKS AND BOLSHEVIKS
Most of the flags flying in LA will be the eagle eating the worm. viva la raza dudes.
you're losing your country, language, and culture.


ON NOVEMBER 5,
MEET THE NEW BOSS, SAME AS THE OLD BOSS.

PETE WAS RIGHT.

ADIOS

A.B. NORMAL
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english

pete
and pete is a pedophile.

Norman
Good story about the flag and bookstore. It just may be illegal in many places but without people actually putting them to task, people get away with just about anything.

I have seen everything from cement trucks with mixer barrel painted in the flag to picnic tables painted up at fast food stores in their patio seating (and everything in between). As I said, the cheapening (maybe not the best word here) of our culture; especially in the marketing world, causes our every day respect of the flag to be somewhat diminished.

You are right on the USA bashing. It would have been best just to show them the way to Cuba and I had prepared a post along those lines for one USA basher here but instead opted for the seed planting approach. Fruitless, I know but there's always "hope for change" right?

I am leaning toward your approach here with McCain. The SCOTUS and the tax situation (Probably estate taxes) are what worry me with Obama but the risk might be worth getting conservatism rolling again.

I am off for the night folks.




Norman
Am I right?


As long as there's life there's hope.


"Faithful are the wounds of a friend"

or put another way...

True friends stab you in the front. Oscar Wilde



Maybe we are the best friends Wirs could ever hope to have....and he will come to see the light?


(looking for a different Wilde quote and found that one...too funny)






Posters
Norman-Anna-Chris-Curtal Friar-CVN65- et al.

Nam65-66
Location: NY

Reply # 79
Date: Jun 12, 2008 - 5:59 AM EST Subject: Is it just me...
...or have others noticed that around midnight,Townhall is populated by werewolves,walking brain deads,and ladies of the evening?

~~~

Aaah ! "populated by werewolves,walking brain deads,and ladies of the evening?"

Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


I see I am in excellent company !

By the way, all very good posts by the above, even Nam65-66. I know exactly where he is coming from!

If someone even accidetally slurs or slams our Country's Flag, I tend to get very hostile myself.

USN 1960-1966, I spent many cruises off the Coast in The Gulf of Tonkin, aboard a Tin Can. We also got "big thank-you's" from the guys on the ground, for our Shore bombardment efforts.

The Vampire Rodent
Rats
(and mice)


Anna
It is well and truly said that "faithful are the wounds of a friend."

I hope Wirs comes around, but I'm not optimistic, and I can't say that any wounds I may have given him were given is spirit of love.

Still, the Lord works in mysterious ways. If Saul could become the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus, anything is possible.

I just LOVED the Wilde quote, by the way. Brilliant. I'm adding it to my collection.

Ratas y Ratones
The only one sullying the flag here--other than the handful of closet commie "nutroots" folks who've turned out from MoveOn--is Wirs, who using the national colors to shield himself and his RINO agenda.

It is an INSULT for the flag to be used as a prop. If I believed that Wirs really gave a d*mn about Ol' Glory, I'd cut him some slack--but I don't. For him, it's just a means to an end--the advancement of the RINO agenda and the rebranding of Conservatism.


Yes, Nam65-66 got in a good line. I chuckled at it, even though I was one of those at whose expense it was made.

I don't much mind being damned with words, if the words be well-chosen, as those were.

I only regret that Nam65-66 didn't know that he was defending Charlie (i.e. Wirs) against the good guys, whom he was subjecting to his own friendly fire.

It's never a good idea to stroll into a firefight without first reading the latest SITREP. Since I believe that Nam65-66 is really one of us, at heart, I tried not to be too harsh in my reply.

Cheers!

Not anymore
"I know that using the flag in an advertisement is (or at least was) a misdemeanor in NC. I was under the impression that it was actually a federal crime, but I may be wrong about that."

Texas v. Johnson (1989) basically means you can burn, use the flag as toilet paper (see above--not a good idea to flush nylon down your toilets), use it as performance art (one had people walk over the flag to a book to write comments down about the flag), etc. Johnson made all Federal laws and State laws in regards to preventing abuse of the flag (as well as state and Confederate flags which were also protected in some states) null and void--as it should have. The First Amendment gives you the right to be offensive or in the converse, it doesn't give you a right not to be offended.

There are Federal regulations on what you can't do to the flag, but it has no force of law.

In short, you can do to it what you will.

Not in NC . . .
. . . as of 1993-94, at least not according to my friend's attorney.

It's not about giving offense, in the case of using the flag as an advertisement prop. I'm not an attorney, but that doesn't strike me as being with 10 miles of a First Amendment issue.

For example, anyone has the right to videotape a street scene through which I happened to pass. He could show it at home without breaking any law. However, if that same person then uses footage with me in it in a TV commercial or a movie, he would either need to get my permission or digitally blur my features.

I'm not a lawyer, but the cases are at least roughly parallel. It is certainly true that the Supreme Court's ruling applies to morons who have nothing better to do than to denigrate and/or desecreate the flag. (Then again, simple assault is usually just a misdemeanor--hint, hint, to all you flag lovers who aren't worried about having a minor criminal infraction on your record.)

I don't see that it follows, however, that because one can desecrate the flag, that one can use it to make money.

If you're an attorney, and can say more about why state laws prohibiting commercial use of the flag are null and void, I'll be glad to be educated. (Otherwise, we're just amateurs trading uninformed opinions.)

Till then, I'm from Missouri.

Whoooo Hot!

Norman,

You are cool !

Akagi is, Akagi. Ano ne, genki deska?

Seriously agree with you about Nam65-66.

Obviously a warrior who doesn't keep up with all the latest.

I cannot fault him, however, I have a slight kinship with him, although I did not go through the same hell he did.

He has slammed me twice, and I do NOT feel any resentment toward him.

Why ? Simply, I have a very slight understanding of the HELL those guys went through!

Direct experience? No! I cannot imagine the full depth of the hell they endured.

I have read many books about it, written by participants. This only gives clues about the actual HELL!

I did meet a disabled American Veteran who was in Re-Con.

Yes, I did thank him for his service, and at the same time, I felt totally inadequate for doing so, as my own service was nowhere equal to his !

If you have not been there, you cannot imagine the HELL these guys went through.

Out there, all alone.

A radio connects you with the world. A bush, a tree line, a path, a village (over-run by the killers),

ALL, HIDING PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU TO DIE.

A friendly fellow who approaches you and offers you flavored chopped ice that contains ground glass, a kid on a bicycle, toting AK 47's, and thousands of rounds of ammo.

Kid's fault? I doubt it. He had a choice, do this or die.

Oh, and to cheer you up, this is coming to your country soon. Thank you, leftist, commie dummocraps.


petie...
"For Those of Us Who Care, Saturday is Flag Day"


I have read this line several times, and every time I read it, I get more incensed.

WIRS TURD.

"For Those of us who care..." Are you attempting to imply, that if we do not agree with you, we are un-patriotic?

After reading this crud several times,

Sadly, I am beginning to believe that you are not just stupid, but that you are the enemy!

Do you think we are slime bags? You are!

Do you think we are stupid? You are!

Do you understand the acronym FOAD?

If so, do so.

You are a total slime bag!

Only decorum, and the knowledge that I would be permanently deleted from TH, prevents me from saying what I really think about your screed.






Ratas y Ratones
NOW you're cookin' with gas!

If an actual patriot had written this (even a leftist like Joe Lieberman or Sam Nunn), I would simply have smiled at the grammatical and stylistic errors and moved on, while agreeing with the sentiment and appreciating the demi-literate fellow's earnest patriotism.

I gather that you're mad about the article for the same reason I am. He's using our beloved flag as a prop to advance his RINO agenda.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got steamed at this! ;-)



Regarding Nam65-66, I also have no heartburn at all. I won't take what I think are misguided slams from too many people, but anyone who served in that hell for our country has earned a wide berth, and has my deepest respect.


LIBS ? = FUBAR


Norman
Location: NY

Reply # 1
Date: Jun 13, 2008 - 7:49 AM EST Subject: Ratas y Ratones
NOW you're cookin' with gas!

If an actual patriot had written this (even a leftist like Joe Lieberman or Sam Nunn), I would simply have smiled at the grammatical and stylistic errors and moved on, while agreeing with the sentiment and appreciating the demi-literate fellow's earnest patriotism.

I gather that you're mad about the article for the same reason I am. He's using our beloved flag as a prop to advance his RINO agenda.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got steamed at this! ;-)

Regarding Nam65-66, I also have no heartburn at all. I won't take what I think are misguided slams from too many people, but anyone who served in that hell for our country has earned a wide berth, and has my deepest respect.



~~~

I too, despise someone who wraps the flag, and pretends to be a human, rather than a mutant.

Kind Sir, I could not agree with you more !!

Re: Regarding Nam65-66... I do have some idea what these guys went through!

Thank God I did not have to endure it, But I love the country who allowed some people, who were up to the task, to do what was required.

MR. Nam65-66, you do have my deepest respect!

Thank you for your service! I also suspect you will not see this, as you typically, make one post and disappear.

Therefore, I may post this same comment on other columns.

Norman, the Conqueror...
"Norman
Location: NY

Reply # 1
Date: Jun 13, 2008 - 7:49 AM EST Subject: Ratas y Ratones
NOW you're cookin' with gas!"

~~~

Norman, The Conqueror...

Most of the time, I try to maintain a low profile.

Why? I do not wish to have to kick the stupidity out of all morons, just the ones who are too stupid to breathe.

If you do not kick them, they will forget that vital function. Inhale... Exhale, exude CO2 into the atmosphere.

GD, You have saved one tree.

Do you not feel better now?




Norman...

You have supplanted my favorite poster, GunnyG.

Sorry GunnyG, I still love you, but Norman's wit, cuts to the bone.


Your wit, simply cuts out their guts.

Both are excellent. Just, one is more subtle than the other.

I do admire subtlety.






Ratas y Ratones
High praise, indeed!

I am moved beyond words. Thank you, friend.

Because
"...why state laws prohibiting commercial use of the flag are null and void..."

Commercial use of the flag would be speech and as the SCOTUS ruled in Texas v. Johnson, protected. Oh and for all you Rambos out there like Norman, attempts to cause serious bodily injury to another person is aggravated assault and that is a felony.


Akakakak
Opening Comment: Isn't your screen name the sound those bubble-headed aliens made in that dreadful Burton-spawn, "Mars Attacks"?
***************************

My, my, my! A bit edgy today, aren't we Mr. Crankypants!?

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Flag desecration doesn't bother you a bit, but you're all worked up about protecting said flag desecraters from the wrath of ill-tempered “Rambos” who love their country.

You MoveOn guys are SO easy to spot! Hint: If you want to infiltrate TH, it helps to at least PRETEND to love this country every now and then. A little phony patriotism goes a long way (just ask Weirdiwirs). Heck, it's going to get B. Hussein elected Prez!

(By the way, tell George Soros I said “hi.”)

Hey, are you the guy from that old commercial, "I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV . . ." (or was it “TH”)?

No, wait, that was a doctor. Never mind (with apologies to the late, lamented Gilda Radner)!

I’ll make a deal with you. I promise that I’ll stop pretending to know anything about the law, if you promise to stop breathing . . . forever.

How ‘bout it?

Deal??? (or no deal . . .)


If not, droogie, why not keep the gloopy chepooka to thyself, less thou fancy a nozhdrat (no pooshkas, you're not worth it to oobivat, and I need to stay on the far side of the millicents—besides you haven’t the keeshkas).

Thou art the plenny of thy own bezoomy rasoodock.

“Yarbles,” I says. Great bolshy yarblockos to you and yourn.

Pony?


Love and Rockets,

Little Alex


Akagi
Commercial speech is narrow in scope compared to individual speech.

If a state says it's illegal for a commercial use of the flag (Norman stated of NC), then this would not be protected under First Amendment since they would be breaking a law in it's use.

Look at the restrictions placed on tobacco advertising and liquor ads.

Flags
western bondbeam:

Simply displaying the flags as used car dealerships do or even placed on t-shirts and the like could indeed be viewed as protected speech and simply because a law is in place doesn't make the law enforcible--some states still have laws against inter-racial marriages even though such laws are null and void since Loving v. Virginia.

You can pass laws in its use and still not have the law constitutional. Say I flew the Mexican flag over the US flag because I think Mexico is so much better. This would be the misuse of the flag under the regulations, but it would be protected speech--see again the majority opinion in Texas v. Johnson. I am saying through symbolic speech "Mexico is better so there!" Or as the performance art piece where you had to walk over the flag in order to write your comments in a book--this again under the regulations would be misuse, but still protected.


Norman
Normon:

No--there is a "gi' in there.

"Flag desecration doesn't bother you a bit, but you're all worked up about protecting said flag desecraters..."

It does not bother me one bit. And I do find using violence against people you disagree with, even if you strongly disagree with them out of bounds.

"You MoveOn guys are SO easy to spot..."

Not a moveon.org guy, but I think I have made it clear here a number of times my attitude toward the US is one that can best be described as apathy I suppose, meaning I don't love it or hate it.

Never claimed to be a lawyer, but as a person with two degrees in political science, I can read and understand a decision by the SCOTUS, can you? I also understand what would be charged as aggravated assualt.

Oh I forgot outside of criminal law, they could also sue you in civil court for actual damages including emotional distress, pain and suffering, etc etc not to mention punitive damages--so not only could you end up in prison for 5 years or more, but end up homeless and penniless too. A fate you would deserve too.

As for the rest of your post, it shows you have the mentality of a 5 year old and write about as well.


lady of the night here!
Norman, Akagi enjoys being the fly in the ointment.

He's apathetic towards our country? Whatever.

"Also don't you think it odd also to pay homage to something that is probably made in China? The flags sold at Kennesaw Mountian (Confederate and Union) are made in Taiwan."


Do we pay "homage" to the flag? It isn't about the material the flag is made of, or where it is made. It is what the flag REPRESENTS that is important.

If Akagi's Buddha statue is made in the US it's not a real Buddha?



It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious. (In the extreme) Oscar Wilde



Ratas
Aaah ! "populated by werewolves,walking brain deads,and ladies of the evening?"

Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


I see I am in excellent company !



`````
I think we've got our own Algonquin Round Table thing going.... that is until tedious people show up to spoil our fun.


Speaking of the "psychology of the individual", I have been curious for some time about your handle. What's the story there?

You mentioned in a post that you were bi-racial. My son is bi-racial. I was wondering what persuasion were you?

We've got the United Nations thing going on in my family. My sister is married to a Filipino. They have three kids and they are an interesting mix. Two more Asian looking and one more Spanish. My other sister is married to an Italian and his parents were off the boat. My other sister's kids are plain old Anglo!


I landed a big job today with a woman who is Greek! She was very beautiful and their family is really into their heritage. Fun.

Cheers!



Akagi
I posted a reply but seems to be gone?

Try again.

I was only saying that commercial use is different than individual use. Tshirts, art, and you flying the Mexican flag are all individual freedoms and should be protected under first amendment, however the car dealer is not and individual. It is a commercial entity and thus it's free speech is limited in scope (especially when it comes to advertising).

IF there are state or even local laws passed (regardless if enforced) to limit flag use in commercial advertising, the first ammendment would not protect them.

Just like the tobacco industry has limits placed on its advertising, they are unable to hide behind the first ammendment.

Corporations have tried expanding their speech and are almost up to par with political speech but are still behind individual speech.

Hey, WackaWackaWacka!
NOW I've got it!

You're the sound PacMan makes when eating dots and cherries, and running from ghosts!

"WackaWackaWacka . . ."

I didn't know they handed out law degrees to 30 year old video game characters.

Congratulations, WackaWackaWacka! Good on ya, mate! You never gave up, even when Ms. PacMan shoved you aside. Your success is a monument to the power of persistence.

I have to wonder, though. Was it an HONORARY J.D.? Perhaps you were invited as a commencement speaker at Harvard, or Yale (or the Long Island City School of Law and Automotive Studies).

I'm impressed, of course, but I have some questions:

1. While you were giving the commencement address, was it hard standing in the same place for so long? (After all, if the PacMan stays in one place for too long, the ghosts eat him. I'm surprised that you haven't developed PTSD!)

2. Did you imagine that the assembled faculty and students were ghosts?

3. If so, did you want to run away from them, or eat them?

Study Disclosure: Your candid answers to these questions are critical to our data collection, and will help the study organizers to better evaluate the mental health needs of obsolete video game characters. Please rest assured that your responses will be treated with strict confidentiality.


As for my having the mentality of a five-year old:

1. "I know you are but what I am?!"
2. "I'm rubber. You're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!"
3. "Oh, yeah! Well, yo momma is SO fat . . ."
and finally . . .

4. "Nah, nah, nah, nah, naaaaaah, nah!"


Love and Rockets,

Raphael Nonsenso

Anna
I don't mind having WackaWackaWacka hanging around.

Now that Cap'n Wobbie has been perpetually banned (even though he still pops up from time to time), and Weirdiwirs seems to be laying off the sock puppets, we're running critically short of idiots.

And, hey, every village needs at least ONE!

WackaWacka fits the bill nicely.

Yet ANOTHER great Wilde quote; I enjoyed the reference to the A.R.T. as well.

Cheers, sister!

Anna--The Dems and Racialism (1 of 2)
I meant to comment on your reply to Ratas in re racialism. It's not exactly on point, but I though you might appreciate it.

I grew up in Flatbush, Brooklyn, where over 90%
of the neighborhood, and nearly all of my friends, were black. (I'm so white that I've been called Casper, as in "the friendly ghost"--seriously. I don't tan well . . .)

I am the blessed husband of a Korean wife (whom I met at church, not on some sleazy "buy a wife" website), with two amazingly handsome sons (because of their mother, not their homely dad).

I work for a Korean-owned company, and all but a handful of my colleagues are Korean. Although I have some great friends in other parts of the country, locally all of my friends are Korean (mostly because of where I work).

I know any number of conservatives who have similar stories. I haven't met many conservatives who really think that much about race. People are people. We meet whom we meet, befriend whom we befriend, and marry whom we marry. I was raised believing that focusing on a person's race was counterproductive--a belief the truth of which my life experience has borne out.

Isn't it strange, then, that conservatives are the racists, and conservatives are the bigots (at least according to the MSM)?

Actually, it's just the other way around. How many liberals do you know who marry outside their race, e.g.? Folks like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have a word for that, and it's not pretty.

CONT.

Anna--the Dems and Racialism (2 of 2)
CONT.

More genteel, pasty-faced liberals cover their racism with bromides, and with baseless charges against conservatives. They don't generally marry outside their race however.

(This doesn't mean of course either that marrying outside one's race is proof that one is NOT a racist, or that failing to do so IS such proof. We love whom we love, and it's all good. I just find the phenomenon interesting.)

It's called "projection"--accuse the other guy of what YOU'RE doing.

When I was a kid, I learned to predict what the Soviets were going to do, by paying close attention to what they were accusing US of doing. It was like an X-ray into the commie soul.

Same is true of the Soviets' first cousins, the Dems.

FIN

Anna


Anna
Location: OR

Reply # 2
Date: Jun 13, 2008 - 5:20 PM EST Ratas
Aaah ! "populated by werewolves,walking brain deads,and ladies of the evening?"

Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


I see I am in excellent company !



`````
I think we've got our own Algonquin Round Table thing going.... that is until tedious people show up to spoil our fun.


Speaking of the "psychology of the individual", I have been curious for some time about your handle. What's the story there?

~~~

Ratas y Ratones... (rats and mice)

I had a rodent infestation in my barn and this was written on the package of D-Con, as part of the bi-ligual labeling.

It worked for rodents, and should work as well for liberals. Some of them are rats, and some are mice.

~~~

Caucasian and native American.


Norman
Thanks for responding. As a Christian of course race means nothing to me. As my old pastor used to say, the ground at the foot of the cross is level.

There was a Jesus march here several years ago and it was so fantastic. All these different Christian churchs, Indian, Korean, etc and everyone came expressing their ethnicity as Christians. God is light and when you fractionate light you get the rainbow. Racial differences reflect how man truly is created in God's image.

I also love it when people live outside the box and like you said are just people. To me that is expressed most beautifully in the church. (At least the potential is there)

Again conservatives are best at this in my opinion as well.

I love culture and how people are different. It is fascinating to me.

I recently re-read Randy Alcorn's book "Heaven". I would highly recommend it if you haven't read it. Lot's about the new earth and heaven.

Also since you mentioned you have younger kids if you haven't read it to them already I would highly recommend Wilde's book, "The Selfish Giant". It is really beautiful and has a lot of Christian symbolism.

I have a good friend who is Korean and Christian. I understand the church is strong in Korea.

I hope you are looking at the CFR info. One world gov is close and Christians should not be caught unaware.

Cheers!

Norman
You are a lot more patient than I.

Akagi drives me crazy. Does he have a point?

Robert is back. He has some new handle but signs his posts with his name.

I swear Robert and Anne need to get a room. They are in a seriously disfunctional relationship!

Anna--WackaWacka and Where's Wobbie???
What's Wobbie's new handle?

I'm having fun with WackaWackaWacka. He seems to be under the impression that I'm interested in responding to his blather, when in fact I'm just counting coups. Great fun!


I'll definitely check out the books you recommended on Amazon.


My current church is multi-racial, which I love. I have been a member of two mostly white congregrations, both of which were great, but I was never entirely comfortable in either one. I kept thinking, "God's kingdom doesn't look like this." The fact that my wife was sometimes the only non-white at services, and my sons were among the only non-white children was a factor, too.

I take such pleasure and pride in my God, who cares nothing for appearance, and everything for the truth that lies beneath. It's not mine to judge, but I believe that many prominent, self-assured, proud, world-renowned preachers will suffer judgment, while many persistent sinners with hearts broken and made repentent by God's love and offer of pardon will be invited to gather around Him in heaven, as he speaks to them like the loving Father He is.

It is my heart's greatest desire to hear my Lord say to me, "Welcome, good and faithful servant, welcome home." I weep when I think of it, both because I do not deserve such a welcome and because He invites me to be bold enough to seek such succor in His infinite mercy.

When we turn over our hearts to Him, trusting Him entirely, the Great Physician heals our wounds, restores our hope, and allows us to become the men and women we are supposed to be.

I don't deserve His mercy, and I have no righteousness in me, but I love Him for loving me first.

Grace and Peace, Sister.

Ratas
Thanks for responding.

As you can tell I was entirely without imagination when it came to my "handle". So I have been wondering what the story was behind yours! (So I can call you D-Con for short, or just the exterminator when you are pounding on Wirs?) I was wondering if there was some literary connection I was missing. (You can always refer to me as the lady of the evening, although I am fond of Norman's "the talented and lovely Anna"!)

Are you as aggravated as I am that they got Fred out of mothballs and have him doing basically the same job as Wirs. (Trotting out palliative tripe to soften us up to vote for McCain.) Insulting.

I hope I wasn't offensive asking about you being bi-racial.

My son (21) is half black. He is very fair, has blue eyes, and curly hair. He's VERY handsome! Blue eyes were a big surprise. Just always curious about people with that shared experience.

My son works with a guy who is half black and half hispanic. He looks Arab to me. I guess I just love race and all it's permutations.

(I think it's a girl thing...I'll be asking you your life story next!)


`````
Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

I see I am in excellent company !


Very Funny.


Norman
I can't remember Robert's handle. It's something goofy. He posted on Hansen's article.

When my son was still at home we went to a very diverse church and then a mostly black church. In our world race just wasn't an issue. I homeschooled him for awhile. It was an issue when he finally started school. "What are you?"

I don't think it is anything to him now. No one cares.

I love the worship in a black church. I am going to a church that is almost all white now and sometimes I feel really out of place. Everyone is so reserved. I am missing the amens and preach it! I am in a prayer group with some great ladies from my old church. My son is not walking with God and we are mothers of prodigals praying for them.

I am certain there is a calling on my son's life and I am expecting that very soon he will begin walking in the good works that have already been prepared for him!!! He is a natural leader.

I am also very grateful to know God and also for all he has done in my life. I had a very bad childhood and God has healed me, helped me to be the person he made me to be. It is nothing short of a miracle.

I am wondering what God has for me to do. I have a huge burden for Christians to recognize what is happening and how close we are to the NAU/one world gov. It is time to redeem the time. I just have this strange sense of anticipation, and am waiting on the Lord to reveal to me what it is...

Take care, I'm off to bed! I've got a very busy day tomorrow!

Anna...

Anna
Location: OR

Reply # 4
Date: Jun 14, 2008 - 1:16 AM EST Norman
You are a lot more patient than I.

Akagi drives me crazy. Does he have a point?

Robert is back. He has some new handle but signs his posts with his name.

I swear Robert and Anne need to get a room. They are in a seriously disfunctional relationship!

~~~

Anna, if Robert and Anne, got a room, it would be excellent, as only Anne would walk out, and then we would be free of the fool. :-)



Ratas
Anna, if Robert and Anne, got a room, it would be excellent, as only Anne would walk out, and then we would be free of the fool. :-)


You are SOOOO Funny.


Here is an article that will amuse you by Peggy Noonon. (In response to whining by Hillary and "don't pick on my wife")

"Sex and the Sissy"
http://peggynoonan.com/article.php?article=420


“Girl, butch up, you are playing in the leagues, they get bruised in the leagues, they break each other’s bones, they like to hit you low and hear the crack, it’s like that for the boys and for the girls.”


It is prissy. Mrs. Clinton’s supporters are now complaining about the Hillary nutcrackers sold at every airport shop. Boo hoo. If Golda Meir, a woman of not only proclaimed but actual toughness, heard about Golda nutcrackers, she would have bought them by the case and given them away as party favors.





Ratas
Here is something else very funny by one of the "delicately nurtured" (a Wodehouse phrase).

The context was "campaign slogans" and Joyyy of Ca offered this up...

Spew alert!


McCain '08 - Who dropped the soap, I'll get it!

With a pic of McCain and Gore under it.




This is a test of my new name,
given to me by a fourth-grader named Buck on July 3 2008. I think I like it!

This column's belated least-grammatical-Wirs-sentence award goes to "It may not be much of a deal to most Americans, but to we Philadelphians, Saturday is Flag Day."

Yes, as I pointed out in the first post, Wirs could not get past the first sentence without making a grammatical error.

You'd think in a column with only two paragraphs of original material that such errors could be avoided, but I guess not.
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