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Sunday, September 16, 2007
Paul Jacob :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hillary's middle class tax increase
by Paul Jacob
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Remember that middle class tax cut Bill Clinton promised us years ago, the one we never got? Well, now Hillary Clinton wants it back. That is, she wants to take back what was never given.

This must be the Clintonian equivalent of getting blood from a turnip.

Shocking, I know, that New York Senator and presidential candidate Hillary Clinton might be considering hiking up our taxes, but look no further than an article headlined "Clinton Rules Out Cuts In Social Security," from a recent issue of the Wall Street Journal.

Speaking before an American Association of Retired Persons convention in Boston, Hillary pledged, if and when she becomes president, to quickly solve Social Security's long-term financial insolvency, now totaling an incredible $84 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

How will she do it? With the daring and courage only she can provide. That is, by not allowing any meaningful reform of Social Security.

"When I'm president," Hillary intoned, "privatization is off the table because it's not the answer to anything." Sure, in some countries average folks are investing through government retirement programs and growing wealthier, but Americans aren't so smart. We need Congress to spend — er, save and take care of — our retirement money for us.

AARP's shindig also offered Mrs. Clinton the chance to score some points against Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Earlier this year, Obama told AARP that "everything should be on the table" in reforming Social Security. What a rookie mistake. Hillary wasted no time in reassuring the AARP crowd that any cuts in benefits as well as any raising of the retirement age were "off the table" during her administration.

So, what is left on her table? What will President Hillary offer to deal with the coming shortfall for Social Security?

No. Not a lock-box. But good guess, Al.

Yes. A tax increase. A payroll tax increase. An increase that will sock it hard to the middle class. That's a bit odd considering that politicians like Hillary constantly talk about how much they want to help the middle class.

I guess it's true, that old saying, we only hurt the ones we love.

When Journal reporter Jackie Calmes deduced that raising the payroll tax was Mrs. Clinton's only remaining option, she followed up with Clinton spokesman Phil Singer, reporting:

"When it comes to Social Security," [Mrs. Clinton] will stand her ground, Mr. Singer said. "People rely on Social Security." Asked if that would mean an increase in the current payroll tax, he said, "Among other things, yes."

But don't go thinking "yes" means "yes." It doesn't — Hillary's last name is Clinton, remember? After pandering to the powerful AARP, Hillary felt an egalitarian need to pander to average Americans, too. She no doubt senses that Mr. and Mrs. Average do not want to hear that she plans to raise their taxes. So, Hillary's campaign website soon posted this statement in response:

The print edition of today's Wall Street Journal suggests that Hillary Clinton would be open to an increase in the payroll tax for Social Security. That is not correct. Hillary Clinton would not increase payroll taxes for Social Security as President.

Whew! That was close. We almost had a tax increase. Well, I mean if Hillary were to win the presidency — and then do what she said she'd do before she said she wouldn't do it.

But there's just one more thing: How would Mrs. President Clinton actually protect Social Security?

Not for continued looting by Congress, mind you, but for those people who have worked and paid into the system and, in their golden years, actually need to buy stuff like groceries. Hillary did promise to do that, along about the same time she was getting applause for taking all the specific ways to shore up the program off the proverbial table.

For decades, we've known we face a pretty simple math problem. Social Security doesn't involve saving or investing for retirement. It takes money from one generation and gives it to another, young to old. The day is coming when more will be owed to retirees in benefits than what hits the coffers of the Social Security Administration, as extracted from workers. "Annual cost will begin to exceed tax income in 2017" warns the 2006 annual report on Social Security.

Last year, Congress spent $200 billion in payroll tax money over and above what was paid out in benefits. But what will the big spenders do when this $200 billion "surplus" (and more) gets gobbled up in payments to the coming wave of baby boom retirees? That's sort of a double whammy for our slippery solons, having to fund the Social Security shortfall and having to fund the programs currently being funded by the so-called surplus.

In their 2006 annual report to Congress, Social Security's trustees pointed out the importance of addressing the shortfall problem sooner rather than later: "The projected trust fund deficits should be addressed in a timely way to allow for a gradual phasing in of the necessary changes and to provide advance notice to workers. Making adjustments sooner will allow them to be spread over more generations."

Rather than spreading the problem over "more generations," why not put back onto the table the idea of making Social Security into a real retirement savings program? One controlled by each individual worker, rather than politicians.

Like many Americans, I've not counted on receiving any Social Security benefits when making plans for retirement. It's a lot of money to pay out year after year, without return. Still, I'll survive.

But how will my kids fair in an economy increasingly strangled with absurdly high payroll taxes?

That's what's coming, unless career politicians like Hillary change their spots.

Not likely. There are elections to win. Interest groups to pander to. Both sides of the mouth to talk out of.

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About The Author
Paul Jacob is President of Citizens in Charge. His daily Common Sense commentary appears on the Web, via e-mail, and on radio stations across America.
 
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I know how to fix Social Security...
From what I've been reading, Congress has a pension plan that is better than most - it certainly will relieve them of having to depend on Social Security for their retirement.

I propose that theire pension be abolished and replaced with a 401 k program, just like the majority of us have.

I think that they would then put some serious effort into fixing Social Security.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa031200a.htm

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/20/commentary/wastler/wastler/index.htm

Privatize It For Real
Refund our contributions, plus interest; allow us to invest the money, tax-free, in something resembling a 401k or IRA, NOT GOV'T CONTROLLED! If Soc. Sec. is going to be privatized there is no need for the money to be funneled through the bureaucracy of the federal gov't.

Hiltlery will fix it
Social Security was from the start only ever supposed to ensure the government stayed in power. It was never a pay as you go plan; the entire house of cards was based on only 1 of 7 people living long enough to get a penny.
Hillary has the cure...Government control of medicine. Waiting lines like Canada, with a few other twist like it being against the law to get care else where, will solve the problem...we will be back to only 1 of 7 living to see a cent.
Sorry Black folks, you already statistically only have a life expectancy of 67 years so you part is already covered. You don't get squat. But don't worry I am sure they will let you work in the SS Admin office.
Vote Demo, vote to fix it!

Smoke and mirrors
If elected, Mistress Hillary will appoint David Copperfield to be SS Comissioner.

Thats all she wrote!
No secret that Social Security is in trouble, has been for a longtime. The only problems with the privatization plan was it was presented by a Republican and it took some control away from government. If Hillary is elected president, and many think that is a given, she will do what she is best at doing, lying, increasing taxes and increasing governmental control. Her liberal thinking means only government can solve this problem and solve it in a way which is in line with socialist dogma.

Hillary and the AARP
How many of those same AARP "bigwigs" are counting on some kind of private savings (401K anyone?) as their means of retirement income in lieu of Social Security? It might be interesting to find out.

Mencken was right
Democracy is a form of govt where the people vote for want they want and they deserve to get it, good and hard. Of the few things Bush 2 did right, he stumped for months for serious SS reform. Yawns from the voters, silence from the GOP and lies from the left. So he finally gave up. But the demographics are not going to change, barring some crazy deadly upheaval. SS and medicare as we know it can not be funded. David is on the right track. Why does not some candidate, Rudy, Fred or even McCain (on whom i have given up) take the bit and run with it. Spread the word that the pols have voted themselves and their retirement clear of the SS mess, pledge to give the public the same deal they give themselves. Even desperate losers as they see their chances fade will not trust the public to figure out what is good for them even when told. We've got the best govt money can buy, which is exactly what the voters want, judging by results at the polls.

SS pt 1
SS was not intended to be THE retirement program. At the time of it's inception almost everyone when retired lived with their children. In addition, they did not retire until they were physically unable to work. Granted, at the time this was mostly farm work as people had not completed the massive migration to urban and suburban areas. It was by all reasonable assessments, a simpler time. The only problem was that there was there was a lingering recession in progress that FDR was making worse with his communist tinkering. The SS act was just one more straw on that beleaguered camel’s back that caused the great depression. It was intended to serve two functions.

First it was a hidden tax increase. By taxing one element of the public (the 75% who were working) and giving it to another element of the public a very few elderly (the average age of death was lower than pay out age). The idea here was that pay outs would begin immediately and come out of the treasury. Taxes would also begin immediately to pay for this program and the net effect would be more taxes than pay outs to pay for more social programs. (FDR also believed in a balanced budget and he was spending out the kazoo and needed a new source of taxation) The second intent of SS was to encourage people to retire when they got older in order to open up jobs for younger people, thus easing up the unemployment problem. Yes the program was popular as it was well sold. FDR, like Bill Clinton, was a wonderful snake oil salesman. He could sell mud to a toad living in the Okefenokee Swamp. Well everyone knows the ultimate result. Billed as a "retirement program" paid for by individual payments, it was a massive failure.

SS pt 2
It was a failure because the pay out was much less than needed to actually retire and live on, so it did not meet the expectations that it was sold as. Second, because it was a tax increase on the people who were working and the companies and businesses that were still afloat, it was a massive drain on the economy that was already hurting. This and the other huge tax increases that FDR pushed through the congress and the "cowed" supreme court is what turned the recession into a depression and made it last until WWII (after which FDR raised taxes again with the highest rate at 91%.

So, is anyone surprised by Hillary's plans? She is the epitome of the FDR socialist/communist.

Spending Us Into Oblivion
It is physically impossible to raise taxes enough to cover what the politicians want to spend. This is no 'sky is falling' screed but the fact is at some point in the not too distant future the bills are going to come due and the sh*t will hit the fan. The *ssholes in congress now will be hiding out hoping no one will remember all those votes to 'save' Social Sec.

IF we lose Bush tax cuts
in 2010, and they don't have to be voted--they can just elapse--the average family of 4 making $60,000 will pay c. $2500 more a year (WSJ).

Hillary doesn't even have to do anything, except NOT vote to keep the tax breaks for the above accomplisment.

Both parties have been busy spending us crazy. The many 1000s of "earmarks" for local museums and bike paths and other matters so obviously not of federal purview are vampires on the big budget packages. Both parties have vied with each other to outdo earmarks and other spending. One reason the Reps. did so poorly in 2006 was forgetting that they are the party of less gov't and less spending. Even Bush has fallen down on keeping the budget in check.

Hillary will doubtless assume 1/7 of the GNP with "universal healthcare"--which means my former students will be deciding if you can see a dr. you've never heard of or not (they've already fouled up my Soc. Sec. 2 yrs. in a row--I'm glad they weren't, say, heart operations);

she'll jump on added energy fees and taxes, so you'll have to trade off going on vacation with buying birthday presents, or heating your house and filling up the tank;

she'll need money for "education," because the left mantra "the children" is churned out for every possible looney experiment and lib. program;


Vic
I suggest that the proper description for Hillary Rodham Clinton Rodham Hillary is a "villagist"; and, that the village, as she describes it, is not quite a commune (yet).


Hillary the Taxation Machine
Hillary has left a trail of corruption from her days at the Rose law firm, the Whitewater affair, Bills administration, and now, her presidential campaign funding efforts.

Hillary is meaner than hell, the new "Queen of Mean," and a taxation machine.

more Hillary
she'll endorse higher CAFE standards, adding to auto costs,
want more "sin" taxes on cigarettes and liquor (altho' they reach diminishing returns after a while; people buy tax-free from Indian reservations or forego;
not so long ago the Dems. wrecked the US boating and marina industry by luxury-taxing the "rich" yacht people--they responded by not buying or renting at all); and want to raise the tax rates that Bush lowered;

she has NEVER been in an executive or leadership position anywhere except where Bill appointed her.
She is afraid of the press and never has had a real interview.
She ignored subpoenas and stonewalled investigations all through the 90s, and all as a lawyer and officer of the court.
She is now embroiled AGAIN is a campaign-finanace scandal and cannot be trusted to do anything legally.
People will elect her at their peril.

TruLib
Vigilante action is deplorable but often understandable. There would be a sort of goes around, comes around satisfaction in hearing some old timer looked up the @sshole who feathered his own nest while screwing the public. Things would have to get pretty bad before much of that happened. I hope we never see the bad times that would make retaliation common.

This is why
Years ago I told AARP to stick it, they want to take my dues and tell the world WE love the Dems?
I think not, I am not going to help pay to get them elected and in turn they raise taxes. My arm is not long enough to stab my self in the back and I sure won’t let the spenders do it!

HAHAHAHAHAHHA
One of the more laughable, yet tragic for the Us people, issues of the recent Iraq discussion has been our 200+ yr old government calling the infant Iraqi government o the carpet over failing to meet "benchmarks"! The US government, mostly with Democrats in control of the "purse strings", for over 20 yers has not done "diddly squat" to properly address the Social Security crisis looming ever closer! We've had NOTHING done at the Federal level to improve the education of our children! We've had no responsible action out of Washington to assure the maintenance of our national infrastructure. We've had no responsible budgets with excess revenue production to retire an Argentinian national debt!
You know, Hillary, you are a sitting US Senator, so if you have a "plan" to save Social Security why don't you do your JOB now and get it into Senate committe NOW! instead spending time and money calling our field commander in Iraq a liar!
This nation, the late/great USA, has had nothing positive out of our government for the people for decades, but the US Legislators certainly have not shied from awarding themselves with pay increases and perks!
BTW, Social Security was never intended as a program for the next working generation to support the current one. That's how far even Mainstream Democrats moved from FDR; they made it a government "slush" fund dedicated to narrow, inefficient government investment! IF all the TRILLIONS paid into the Social Security Trust Fund since its inception had been managed like a true investment fund, even a cnoservative private fund, we would have no liquidity problems today with Social Security!

sorry for the "typos"
my bad?

More on SS mess pt 1
History has shown that when the Democraps controlled congress (about 7 decades)for every 10% increase in taxes enacted they increased spending 15%. Here is the history of SS:
.
1950 - rate raised to 1.5% from 1% each
1954 - rate raised to 2% each
1957 - rate raised to 2.25% each
1959 - rate raised to 2.5% each
1960 - rate raised to 3% each
1962 - rate raised to 3.125% each
1963 - rate raised to 3.625% each
1966 - rate raised to 3.85% each
1967 - rate raised to 3.9% each
1968 - rate lowered to 3.8% each (note heath ins being phased in)
1969 - rate raised to 4.2% each
1971 - rate raised to 4.6% each
1973 - rate raised to 4.85% each
1974 - rate raised to 4.95% each
1978 - rate raised to 5.05% each
1979 - rate raised to 5.08% each
1981 - rate raised to 5.35% each
1982 - rate raised to 5.4% each
1984 - rate raised to 5.7% each
1988 - rate raised to 6.06% each
1990 - rate raised to 6.2% each

pt 2
Does it look like the boiling frog syndrome? Note that not all years had an increase in rates and that in 1966 LBJ’s Medicare was also phased in which added 0.35% initially and it also began the slow increase and is not at 1.45% each for a total of 7.65% each or 15.3% (and yes, you are paying that tax even though they make it look like big business is paying it.) Also note that the maximum taxable amount was $3,000.00 initially and in the years that the rates didn’t go up, the maximums did. The max is now $97,500.00 and after all of that the age at which you can draw these benefits was raised from 65 to 67 and the benefits were taxes again if you had an income over $35,000.00

All of the proposed fixes that we have on the table now involve further increases in taxes and reductions in benefits to eligible people. If they were really serious the first thing they would do is eliminate Jimmy the Peanut’s welfare program of SSI wherein people who have never paid a nickel into the system are allowed to draw benefits. The second thing they would do is perform an accounting for all that has been paid in vs all that has been paid out. The large surplus from that accounting would then be removed from the federal budget general fund and invested in a manner similar to what States and local government does. That by itself would extend the system for decades. Then they can talk about whether to make the entire system a mandatory private investment system or actually follow the Constitution and eliminate it.

TO BE "FREE"
The American public after almost 300 years of self-rule, are still not "FREE".The reason for this becomes more apparent each day as this campaign season unfolds.Your "TAXES" are being increased every time you make a purchase,with a weaker "DOLLAR".The fact that A or B is president has no affect on if you will be taxed.Government has to be paid for, by "YOU".And it will BE!The people of America must begin to understand, "WHO" has the POWER.IT IS "US".Mrs. Clinton or whoever falls prey to the PRESIDENCY in "08", will have a TALL TASK before them.I could take all the "CONCERNS" being voiced today,compare them to those of 2000,and they would be "IDENTICAL".Minus the war in IRAQ.We have issues that permeate each ELECTION.I call them political "STABLES".If America prevails it will be because of "US".Also,If America fails it to will be because of "US".A person can never take, what you never "HAD".Freedom must first take place in "US" MIND...

TO BE "FREE"
The American public after almost 300 years of self-rule, are still not "FREE".The reason for this becomes more apparent each day as this campaign season unfolds.Your "TAXES" are being increased every time you make a purchase,with a weaker "DOLLAR".The fact that A or B is president has no affect on if you will be taxed.Government has to be paid for, by "YOU".And it will BE!The people of America must begin to understand, "WHO" has the POWER.IT IS "US".Mrs. Clinton or whoever falls prey to the PRESIDENCY in "08", will have a TALL TASK before them.I could take all the "CONCERNS" being voiced today,compare them to those of 2000,and they would be "IDENTICAL".Minus the war in IRAQ.We have issues that permeate each ELECTION.I call them political "STABLES".If America prevails it will be because of "US".Also,If America fails it to will be because of "US".A person can never take, what you never "HAD".Freedom must first take place in "US" MIND...

Savage99
Maybe a deck of cards with pictures of Kennedy, Schumer, Clinton, Boxer, Reid, et al would be the thing to keep in that big box with the ammo and freeze dried. Not that it would ever come to that, don't ya know.

Social Security and Congress
Social Security was never created as a retirement plan…it was to be “supplemental income” together with whatever you saved and/or a pension. But some people have large families to support, low paying non-skilled jobs, poor spending habits, and the inability to plan and look into the future. Their entire life style has been living just day-to-day, and when they become unable to work, all they have is social security. Are we responsible to fund these people who fail to provide for themselves, no matter what the reason?

Hillary wants to create a socialistic-communistic-type government. Then her control will be complete. There will be no Democrats who will oppose her…out of fear and greed they will support her campaign. If the Republicans do not wake up, they are doomed to live in whatever society she creates. If she is elected, many Democrat legislators will be carried with her into office. Republicans will become such a minority that their voices will barely be heard.

The middle class will quickly become the “lower middle-class.” Hidden taxes and spending will erode its income. Money laundered through government programs always results in little actually being spent on the programs themselves…I can hear the huge sucking sound now as dollars are siphoned off into the federal coffers to be spent by the pork barrel congress and the greedy, power hungry Democrat President who will be elevated to the title of “supreme commander!”

Democrats will do and say anything to gain the power of the Presidency. You cannot believe anything Hillary says…she is “everything” to “everyone” and you know that people hear, see, and believe only what they want to…her statements and promises make a mockery of the truth as she panders to both sides of any issue. That is called sophistry, and is used only to deceive. Beware, Democrats…it is harder to govern than it is to criticize and make empty promises.

Cold Cold Heart
I see no need to answer Vic and his Liberal cronies---hidden or open---except to ask where their brains are when they profess to support Hillary Clinton?

Income tax Increases; tax increases for a failing Social Security; burgeoning deficits from socialist spending; free health care [free waits on lines too]; less freedom with more governmental control of our daily lives; national defeatism; appeasement of foreign and domestic enemies; welcoming of foreign invasions and Islamic takeover---all this from the smartest woman in the World.

If Hillary is elected, there will be cheering women in burqas and a national outflux to the Antarctic. Better the cold weather than the cold heart.

I see no possible reason to support the likes of Hillary Clinton and her Liberal crew. A Democrat/Liberal in the White House sends us quickly progressing to oblivion. I fear for our beloved Country.

Conservative fiscal responsibility
Alan Greenspan:

He harbored hopes that Bush would adopt the fiscally prudent policies of Gerald Ford—but it became obvious that that was not happening when Bush and the Republican Congress fell in love with ear-marking and pork-barrel spending at levels that had never been seen before.

The fact is
That this Marxist, H.Klinton is even in a position to run for the Presidency, and has powerful backing shows how far this nation is backslid from everything it is Founded in.


Income tax and Social Security
The People were duped with scope of the power of the income tax amendment and again when the Social Security Act was passed. It took decades before the SS tax was even called a tax and for at least 4 decades the 'trouble' with the SS program has been bandied about, but benefits and the number of beneficiaries have steadily been added.

Duping 'the People' been the prime tool of politicians since Satan first did it in the Garden of Eden - and for the same reason - power.

Far too often, 'press releases' and 'sound bytes' are used solely to misdirect our attention from the really insidious parts of legislation. "Partisan" means one party gets political benefits, but when something is "bi-partisan" we really need to worry because that means the plug has been pulled something more that was 'ours' has been taken by politicians.

The Bill Clinton 'tax cut' scam resulted in the largest tax increase in history. New definition was given to 'the rich' and 'the People' were 'clients' instead of being the Boss.

We should choose a politician who will do the least damage, but unfortunately usually pick the one who makes the most lavish promises.

tnmccoy
I see no need to answer Vic and his Liberal cronies---hidden or open---except to ask where their brains are when they profess to support Hillary Clinton?
________________________________________________

Obviously someone has not read ANY of my posts. If you actually read what I said it is NOT liberal, it attacks FDR, LBJ, and Shrillary and in the final analysis recommends getting rid of SS.

Thanks, Vic, for the stats
They come from where?

I don't argue them. Since the 30s, the fed gov't has over-expanded many tyrannozillions of times, now with its long scaly fingers in everything from baby formula to vitamin labels to cell phone calls.

Almost every institution receives fed funds in some form and is subjhected to all harebrained fed laws and regs. (There are a few "free" places left, but I can't give a spec. name.)

Easy Fix
If 50% or more of Americans vote Hillary Clinton into the White House (and presumably a Democratic Senate and House as well) that will show that a majority of Americans have become political morons, unable to judge cause and effect and are just waiting eagerly for the free goodies that are theirs BY RIGHT! Ask any successful con-man (aka Clinton contributor) what is the first step to fleecing a chump and he will reply, "Offer them something for free." Now HRC knows there's not anywhere near enough money for Social Security at the present level plus a giant new 'right' to unlimited free health-care and that raising taxes too much will crush the economy, not a scenario that these legacy-obsessed narcissists want to contemplate. There is, however, an easy fix; one that also works to confiscate the 401k wealth of the upper middle class, inflation after the indexes have been rigged not to reflect it. Print money. To a clique steeped in fraud and dishonesty something that compromises 'integrity', especially of something as abstract as the currency, is something that can easily be cast aside. After all, integrity isnt a concept they use in their daily lives, why should the rest of the country need it? Of course at some point the hogs at the trough will notice that the swill is mixed with sawdust but then you can always blame Rush Limbaugh.

Hillary's plan for my doctor visits.
Hillary is scheduled to unveil her universal health care plan tomorrow during a speech in Iowa. I shudder.

Vic
Great post at 1004.

So typical of the libs to pullsome crap like SS. Start small and work up. Just they like they've gone after the kids. Read the below article, what a load of crap!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57664

THIS ARTICLE COULD HAVE BEEN

.....Reprinted every year since LBJ eliminated the Social Security Fund and had all that surplus money go into the General Tax fund to finnance his Great Society Welfare Scheme (Butter) and the war in Vietnam (Guns) ...

.....When asked by a reporter if the Country could afford to fight a war and spend on domestic social welfare programs ...(after LBJ's infamous Guns & Butter speech) ....LBJ replied, "H*ll yeah! we're rich" ...

.....Seems like Hillary is on board with that .....COLOSSUS

renny
The stats came from SS's own website.

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html


GunnyG
Thanks, can you believe that people are calling me a "liberal"?

HalD calls me an "ultra-rightwinger".

redsand
Here's the plan Hitlary and the Libs have for us.

THEY'LL: get the BEST doctors that Bethesda can provide with "house" calls by the docs to the Senate/Congress as needed.

THEY'LL: get great care (private) because they're rich and will be able to afford it.

WE'LL: get higher taxes.

WE'LL: get long lines at clinics.

WE'LL: get waiting rooms packed with illegals.

WE'LL: get doctors like Dr Nick on the Simpsons. Since WHY would any DECENT doctor work assembly line health care?

Vic
Hal's head is so far up his alimentary canal that he hasn't seen the light of day in decades. He's not even worth debating since it's like figthing an unarmed man he's so witless.

GunnyG
Read the article. I would have sent the letter to the local paper along with an open letter to the school board demanding this idiot scum teacher be fired.

A hundred years ago a teacher like this would have been tarrred and feather and run out of town on a rail.

SHUT UP, HILLARY!!!
The Queen of the World (Hilly) has spoken. Only she is smart enough to save the world. When the Queen's lips are moving, she is lieing! If she is ever elected President, you can be assured that Bill and the United Nations will be running America and we will have a one world union that only she is smart enough to run.

May this Queen fall in flames!!!

RR

Vic
Dropped a nasty note to both the teacher and the Princ.

CONOR
I've been trying to figure out why Greenspan came up with the "oil" charge and i think you hit it. Its payback for trashing Greenspan's advice on fiscal responsibility and blowing the chance to truly turn around our financial status instead of just slowing down the trip to the dumps.

Why Hillary?
Everyone seems to have addressed the Social Security problem quite well so I think I will go off topic slightly. I know few people who say they support this woman. Sometime back someone in the media printed a poll indicating that her "likabilty" rating(that is how people like her or not) is in the toilet. This only refers to how people perceive her not whether they would interact with her(vote for, do business with,etc.). Scandals surround her dating back to the start of her husband's presidency. Every stand on the issues she has screams out the most virulent far left philosophies. With all this I mus ask how she has managed to stay on top of the election polls(despite an early scare from Obama). I can only conclude that the mainstream media has given her the biggest pass in history. They practically salivate to see her elected and unless the Republicans get busy soon it may very well happen. I implore my fellow conservatives to be sure to vote. Don't stay home on election day just because the nominee is not perfect. No human being is. We can't resurrect Ronald Reagan from the dead. That ship has sailed. I admit that I have issues with Romney, Mccain, Giuliani, Thompson and the others. But I will vote for the Republican nominee whoever he may be because the alternative is unthinkable. God help us all and God bless America.

Vic
Quit bragging about what HalD called you. I'm feeling left out.

Social Security: PONZI scheme
Reality: Social Security is a PONZI scheme that is heading for a near term crash. There is no Social Security surplus- it has been used by both parties to hide the true size of the national debt. The Democrat’s solution? The Democrats have slowly transferred all of the income tax burden to the top 50% of wage earners (= $50K or greater annually: top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes.) The bottom 50% of wage earners only pay payroll taxes which consist of Medicare & Social Security Taxes. The Democrats “solution” is to buy more votes from the “parasite class”: forget the first $15-20K in earnings and then raise the Social Security taxable income limit from $80K to $130K IOT make up the difference. This would of course place a greater tax burden on the majority of taxpayers- expendable, minimally franchised men like me. This is in contrast to the previous Republican solution: take a small part of an individual Social Security “Contribution” and invest it the Stock market.

Unfortunately, most people who support the Democratic Party’s policies WRT wealth redistribution are those persons who have placed themselves firmly in the “To Each According To HER Needs” Column, e.g., Hillary Clinton’s “Women in Need” voter block.


Vic, thanks
Someone recently asked where I got 911 info from and I said the 911 Commission. It always helps to go to the source.

investment vs. insurance
"why not put back onto the table the idea of making Social Security into a real retirement savings program? One controlled by each individual worker, rather than politicians."

Because I remember what happened to the workers at Enron who invested their life savings in Enron stock.

The problem is that Social Security is NOT just an "investment program," it's an INSURANCE program. More like an annuity than a pure investment. It has to ALWAYS be there for you if the breadwinner dies. And with an investment program, you have unlimited downside risk. Workers who invested their life savings in Enron stock lost everything.

I would like to see Social Security become more like an annuity or pension program in which the Government invests some of the proceeds in the stock market to boost returns, but is prepared to make any worker whole (by printing up more money) even if the stock market crashes.

That's how auto insurance works: The premiums you pay are invested by the insurance company. As long as they are making a profit, they may even distribute a dividend to you, lowering your effective premium. But as long as they are solvent, they will not cancel your policy outright even if their investments fail.


for skep41
skep41 writes: "If 50% or more of Americans vote Hillary Clinton into the White House (and presumably a Democratic Senate and House as well) that will show that a majority of Americans have become political morons"

No.
It will just show that Americans have become totally disgusted with Bush, but since he can't run for re-election and won't be impeached they have no way to express their frustration with him. Except by taking out their frustration on all other Republicans.

Historically, no unpopular incumbent President was succeeded by someone from his own party since 1876 (when Hayes succeeded the unpopular Grant, both Republicans). Ever since 1876, when the incumbent President was unpopular, the voters elected the opposition party in the next election.

SS should be a true pension plan
Social Security should NOT be an investment program--because you can go broke with any investment.

It should work like the Government equivalent of a traditional corporate pension plan. When you worked for a large company like IBM or General Motors, the company would have a pension plan whose money was invested in the stock market to boost returns. But even if returns were disappointing due to a bear market, the company GUARANTEED your pension anyway--they would make you whole even if they had to eat the cost temporarily.

Social Security should be the same way: One central investment pool with a Government guaranteed return, guaranteed if necessary by printing more paper money. NOT an individual investment program.

Because too many Americans have lost their life savings "investing" in scams: the Enron scam, the "dot.com" scam, the Internet stock scam, the Canadian junior gold mining scam, and numerous others throughout history that bankrupted the small scale investor. A large professional management team hired by the Government can steer clear of scams and invest the money for the benefit of the workers.

afraid it's inevitable
Hillary as president seems unthinkable, but I'm afraid it's inevitable. This country has totally abandoned common sense. I remember when a million dollars was a large amount, now deficits and expenditures of billions and trillions of dollars seem commonplace. We need to think about eliminating income taxes, making SS funds untouchable for spending programs, etc. But, Hillary will only accelerate our economic demise. Next to terrorism, Hillary is clearly our most ominous threat.

Grrrr.....
Social Security is nothing more than a pretty name for welfare. Reality is the only plan Hillery has to raise taxes. Social Security recipients are living off their children and grandchildren since you get back way more than you ever put in and it isn't due to investment. I notice once again she is calling all of us stupid. Problem is I sometimes wonder if she might be right about that. People are easily duped.

Don't even get me started on Greenspan. It's time for some of these guys to go to the nursing home.

Let's see. Taxes going up for pork. Taxes going up for SS. Taxes eventually having to go up to pay for the war. In additon your state and local taxes will have to go up accordingly. How in the heck is anybody going to eat?

SteveL
What makes you think government would be any better than private investors in preventing the plan from going bust?

Enron is hardly a good example to hold up to the light for likelihood of pension plans to go under. In fact, large companies going under like Enron is rare. The fact is Enron broke numerous laws and aided and abetted by an auditing company that broke laws to hide what they were doing.

Laws regarding retirement programs usually will prevent things like Enron from happening. The problem is that somewhere along the line the laws that are on the books have to be enforced. And usually monitoring and enforcing the laws that are on the books works a whole lot better than pointing fingers and making new laws after the fact.

Mrs. Clinton panders shamelessly, again
"Speaking before an American Association of Retired Persons convention in Boston, Hillary pledged, if and when she becomes president, to quickly solve Social Security's long-term financial insolvency, now totaling an incredible $84 trillion in unfunded liabilities."

Mrs. Clinton is just kissing the @$$es of the AARP. I am 54 years old. AARP is recruiting me. I will NEVER send them so much as dues. They are selfish leftwing special interest group. They are a professional lobbying organization. Her promises there are as empty as every other promise made by anyone named Clinton.

"How will she do it?"

She will do it by screwing the taxpayers. It will be a triple-screwing. We will get a SS tax hike, a delay in the age at which we can start receiving benefits, and a reduction in the benefits we actually receive.

This will happen because (1) she and her Democrat friends in the Senate refused to work with GWB to develop a real solution to the problem and (2) an income tax hike will REDUCE revenue to the treasury as it causes the economy to tank.

"With the daring and courage only she can provide. That is, by not allowing any meaningful reform of Social Security."

Exactly right. The 'nut' of the whole article. Mrs. Clinton is every bit the liar her husband is.

Where all of the lib trolls who frequently blame Bush for banrupting the country?

Since Bush took office the national debt has increased by roughly $2.5 trillion. But SS, the signature program of the Democrat Party, is now projecting an $84 trillion unfunded liability.

That's $84 trillion vs. $2.5 trillion.

Even Andy Kaufmann would have been able to figure this one out.

libphobic
I see where you are coming from but making SS untouchable is not enough. Not only did LBJ rob it so did Bill Clinton. Furthermore it still doesn't account for the fact that people get more than they pay in. Couple that with the fact that people live longer now. Reality is you are paying for several generations of recipients not just the current generation retiring.

It's like constantly living off of credit cards and still running your checking account into the red every month.

SteveL
I have as yet to go broke with any investment I have ever made. It is called EDUCATION. Do you buy house without looking at it first or a car? Additonally only a fool puts all their eggs in one basket.

Its a pity
Its a pity that my Children and their spouses pay into a system that they will NEVER be able to collect from. Not only that since my Son is self employed (construction) he pays more than 2x what the average person pays.
Not only that since the illegals are doing jobs US legal citizens are and were doing (like construction) AND a lot of them are NOT paying into the system, but will be made citizens by Hitlery and her cronies when she is elected, the younger generation is "$crewed". With the high costs of gas and groceries, my Son and Daughter's family don't have enough to sock away in any 401K or ANY other retirement program.
My son in law used to make good $$$ in the blue collar jobs, but now around here the starting wage is $8.50 to 10.50/hr., and health insurance taken out of $50.00/week, there's not much left.
We are indunated with illegal aliens in every job available around here, meat processing, trailer factories, plus several of the largest companies moved to Mexico, as soon as the companies arrived in Mexico, the Mexican's started to move here. So largest employer moves to Mexico, Mexico exports its citizens to take the rest of the available jobs, and wages are STAGNANT. But our Senators don't give a crap, they have GOOD HEALTH benefits, AND super retirement benefits. They aren't there for us, they are there for companies.
Just wait till you get the bill for Universal health care. Bet we will have lots of Doctor's retiring, and we will have to import them like Britian does.
So guess you had better get over Bush hate, and see who will be LOOKING OUT FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES!!!

SS problems corrected by printing more $
Has none of you ever read what happened in Germany after WWI, the war to end all wars?
The Government was printing money right and left. Ordinary people were starving because the means of food production had been destroyed, and all the other countries in the world looked the other way. Soon, it took a wheelbarrow load of (paper) money to buy a loaf of bread, and Hitler came along promising to save the country by taking over the rest of Europe. Only some people believed him, but they voted him into office. Jews were such convenient scapegoats.

By the way, did anyone notice the great increase in prices in the US lately, as the administration pointed with pride to the (rate of) decrease in the deficit? That can only happen if you pay off debt with lower valued dollars. Funny I don't see anyone writing articles about it. I keep hoping Dr, Sowell will do that, so I can forward it to my representatives and senators. That little stunt has wiped out more than half of the numerical shortfall in SS funds, just by misquoting the rate of CPI used to calculate SS raises. Along with all other gov't calculated pension benefits.

Ladies and gentlemen, the AARP and the ACLU have been infiltrated with left-wing bureaucrats whose only qualification is that they have as their full time occupation the job they occupy.

I've been a registered Republican all 55 years of my adult life, but no longer see anyone on the horizon who embodies the principles of the real conservative Republican party. Pandering to right wing zealots doesn't cut it. And income redistribution is just a socialist trick to buy support from convenient idiots.

What Dave Stone wrote
At 9:53

Salty
Finally someone here who knows economics! You are on the money! there are some good Republicans out there, but you have to work to find them. We need to clean house on the Rep side so do your homework and get involved.

Dave Stone...Good Post!!!

Get involved because this country is worth it!

wiseone
My parents dumped the AARP as well. Especially when they figured out how left wing they were. My mother said they made promises in exchange for money and no results or benefits.

Privatization for me but not for thee
"When I'm president,privatization is off the table because it's not the answer to anything."

It was the answer to how she could turn $1,000 investment into $100,000 in less than a year.

"Nothing we (as in the co-presidency) have ever said was meant to discourage investment." -- Hillary Clinton when responding to questions about "Cattlegate".

"CATTLEGATE"
http://www.antiauthority.com/propaganda/hillary_rodham_clinton-what_every_american_should_know.asp

PREDICTION BY COLOSSUS

.....Hillary Clinton will never be elected President of the United States ...

.....Only through massive voter fraud in Democrat strongholds can Hillary steal the Presidency ...

.....Democrats will never allow a National Voter ID card to verify Citizenship ...in Democrat precincts like Boston, NYC, Chicago, Milwaukee, San Francisco, Los Angeles ...the fix is in ...

.....Gore came close in 2000 ...Kerry (In spite of his traitorus acts during Vietnam) came close in 2004 ....The Clintons are much more ruthless and clever ...with George Soros and Move-On in the wings ...to tip the balance ...

.....Hillary cannot win an honest election but the Democrats are capable of pulling off a coup .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
While we still have the Electoral College Hillary and ACORN steeling votes in the urban areas will not make as much difference as if the are able to still them in the suburban areas and country side. Only if they are able to introduce massive numbers of dead voters or illegal aliens will it make enough difference. If they steal enough votes to swing the entire State, that will make a difference. That happened with JFK in the 1960 election. LBJ produced a lot of dead voters to swing Texas and the mob produced dead voters in Chicago. Those were enough to shift the States. This is probably why a bigger stink wasn’t made of the ACORN activities in Missouri. Although there were literally thousands of fraudulent registrations the State was still won by the Republicans. What this winds up doing is narrowing the popular vote but does not impact the electors count. Yet, another reason for keeping the electoral college; it makes it a lot harder to steal the election.

Social Security
My solution to SS is to invest my SS check for my children to use. We can make it on my pension and investments. At least what my children pay in will be for them in the form of my investments later on.

Incidentally, THERE IS NO SS TRUST FUND. It is all an accounting fiction. In order to draw money from the "trust fund" the Fed. gov. will have to raise taxes; or they have to borrow money or reduce benefits. These are the same actions that it would take if there were no "trust fund". As P.J. O'Roarke said "having a government trust fund is the same as not having a government trust fund".

Rep. Ron Paul has the right twist on SS and many other 'problems'. Give him a look.

High taxes just the frosting on the cake
If the morally/politically disengaged citizens of this once great nation continue to live in their own little dumbed down narsicist worlds of materialism, smut entertainment and Apathy...Then socialism & fascism is what we are going to get from the Dhimmicrat Totalitarians, and their Islamist fellow travelers..

High taxes just the frosting on the cake
If the morally/politically disengaged citizens of this once great nation continue to live in their own little dumbed down narsicist worlds of materialism, smut entertainment and Apathy...Then socialism & fascism is what we are going to get from the Dhimmicrat Totalitarians, and their Islamist fellow travelers..

baseballdoc
Actually Kerry lost by a large margin. Other than that I agree. They really are not beyond a coup.

Hitlery Stalinton
Says it all.................

Time for a Conservative Middle-Class
Grass Roots Party.

Paul
"Rep. Ron Paul has the right twist on SS and many other 'problems'. Give him a look"

I did look at Ron Paul. He looks, sounds and sometimes reasons like Elmer Fudd. When its wabbit season, he'll have my support!

Health Care
I belong to a great HMO. I have access to fine physicians -- I do not need to be "referred" to specialists if I feel I need their care. My HMO provides a "Health Coach" -- a nurse practioner who is great. She calls me once a month, and I can reach her every day to discuss my concerns. She sends me literature about my concerns. She also tells me at time that I should consult my physician for further information. I do this for $60. a month. Do not dare talk to me about HillaryCare. I can get an appointment whenever I need it -- I do not have wait weeks or months to see a physician when I have a concern. LEAVE MY HEALTH CARE ALONE.

Elect another extortionist
When are we going to get fed up with this theft. Hilliary is just one of the more obvious thieves. You want to vote partisan go ahead we will ALL suffer.
If you think this is just about government largess you are kidding yourself. On a $3,000,000,000,000 budget (BTW budget is the wrong term because they dont budget) just think of the opportunities to reward helpful friends. 1% is 30,000,000,000 thats billion. SS may have been a good idea back then but the monies went into the general fund. We (the people) are stuck with this debt as many of the so called baby boomers are relying on it. Future generations should be left alone or in worse case forced to provide for themselves with a gov administered 401k or some such. SS is a mess, medicare is worse and wait till Hillary forces national heathcare down are throats. On second thought that might be the answer to SS because we will ALL die sooner. People vote with your heads for a change.

SS
Social Security is a ponzi/pyramid scheme, which is illegal if done by private sector financiers.

The Easy Fix for Social Security
Let's stop playing cat and mouse and party politics tug-a-war over Social Security. My solution is an easy solution a nd would fix Social Security for the next fifty years. Add one percent increase to the current employee/employer tax taken and that would solve the issue for the rest of the century. I am not in favor of privatizing it, becuase most people do not have a clue about investing or planning for their retirement. The majority of americans rely on their employers or hired financial advisors to manage their retirement planning vehicles. My plan is simple....add one percent increase to the FICA tax withheld and there you go.

Anyone who can propose a better idea I am all ears.

Privatizing issue
Please correct me if I am wrong but I do believe the Bush proposal was to allow us to invest a small (4-5%) of the SS witholding, not to privatize the entire program. Am I wrong?? It seems to me that the msm and libs, along with AARP, jumped on his proposal and started saying he wanted to privatize the whole program. I would be in favor of allowing us to invest a small portion. It sounds totally reasonable.
It's too late for us but I am concerned about our children and grand children.
I would not trust any proposal put forth by ms clinton.

Grandma take it from a grandpa
the kids are going to be ripped off. The Bush proposal wasnt all that bad. Most large companies offer 401k plans that are pretty well managed. Take a look at the Vanguard or Fedelity plans that are targeted for specific retirement plans. If people entering the workplace had the option of putting their (15% with employer match) into one of these plans and continued for 30-40 years when they retired they wouldnt need heathcare, SS, or ANY government assistance. By our current standards they would all be rich. In the meantime we give the government that money to squander and it reurns 1-3% if you are lucky

Babysitter Hillary
__She's getting right to the throat of the matter. Terrify the elderly, and tell them what they will lose without the left in power. The left wants their piggy bank left alone, so they play their turmoil card. These people have blindsided the American society for years with this approach. Speculators securing power, and prosperity, barking like the traveling medicine man. We need a president that is going to lead America, not a factitious president for the greed of America. Of course sHillary wants privatization off the table! Privatization, in societies hands, takes the lefts government privatization off the table. The left has been working in this direction for years, has they try to take power out of this societies hands. "We the People" directing our nation has a Republic, is not of the pure democracy agenda the left pursues. Many Americans have fallen into their trap of terror. The only people that have gotten out of that trap are those who make private, responsible, decisions its their lives, and they don't need a babysitter.

An example
25 year old starts at $50,000 year (rich?) each year salary improves by 3% each year takes 15% (as current SS with employee match) total is placed in 401K and return avaerages 6% (well within reason) after 40 years the fund is worth $1,760,295.318 at 8% avg yearly compounded the total would be a very nice $2,781,460.85 at age 65


This has not been mentioned so far...
A key element to solving the Social Security crisis will be TERM LIMITS in Congress.

As long as the careers of politicians depend on long-term, favorable public impression, Congress will never find the moxie to require honest budgetary accounting and make unpopular choices.

The reaction to GWB's sensible partial privatization initiative after the 2004 election tells the whole story. A similar plan is already in use all over Europe, and has rescued the retirement plans of many European countries without even a hint of the risk that unthinking dupes like SteveL recite for their DNC masters. But the Republicans in Congress ran in fear from it, and did not lift a finger to defend it. Too risky to their careers, you see. Too unpopular.

The death of federal governance in the US has been hastened by the creation of career politicians, who can always get themselves reelected by voting their constituents pork and largesse. We must return Congress to a form of citizen service by making it a temporary diversion from a profitable career, rather than a profitable career in and of itself.

You are correct,, blustrmom
blustrmom/grndmomx2 wrote: "Please correct me if I am wrong but I do believe the Bush proposal was to allow us to invest a small (4-5%) of the SS witholding, not to privatize the entire program. Am I wrong?? It seems to me that the msm and libs, along with AARP, jumped on his proposal and started saying he wanted to privatize the whole program."

You are correct. This partial privatization scheme has been tried successfully by many European countries. It was a sensible proposal.

The Democrats killed it, with the glad assistance of the mainstream press, by lying through their teeth and scare-mongering.

The Republicans in Congress ran and hid.

It was a shameful performance all around. GWB was the only honest actor in the play, and he took all the blame.

Example part II
For SS the same total investment $565,509.45 would assuming life expectancy to 78 return approx.($2000month X 12months X 13 years)=$312,000.00 isnt that a great deal the gov is giving you?


Does Ms. Clinton have govt experience?
Does Ms. Clinton claim to have 8 years of White House experience alongside her husband? Then we should hold her to account for what her husband's administration did with Social Security.

Though I am painfully aware of the gross criminal conduct of the White House through those years, I believe the most shameful failure of the Clinton administration is an omission: the absolute failure to address Social Security when it was possible to do it.

While some of the "surplus" from the Clinton budgets came from shutting down the government due to a fiscal food fight with Congress, and some came from Republican austerity under Speaker Gingrich's Contract With America, roughly half of the "surplus" came from an accounting trick performed by Herr Clinton. Before Clinton, if Congress wanted to use SSA funds for general spending, they had to borrow it; it showed up as an increase in the national debt. Clinton changed the rules, after which money collected in SSA revenues were simply counted as general revenues to the government. The increase in the national debt dropped dramatically due to this simple accounting change.

While the numbers looked good was the perfect time to address the looming SSA shortfall. But Herr Clinton was never interested in solutions, only in appearances. So Social Security was never addressed. He left it for his Dummy, Al Gore, to raise the issue during the 2000 campaign, and retired from the White House a fiscal hero.

We need to remind Ms. Clinton that we already know her style regarding Social Security, and we're not impressed.

To: SteveL
Hate to break this to you, my friend, but Social Security is not, and never has been, INSURANCE. You have absolutely no right to Social Security benefits; they can be taken away from you by Congress at any time.

This was established by the Flemming vs. Nestor case before the Supreme Court in 1960. SSA's own Website tiptoes around the fact:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/nestor.html

Now, when you purchase insurance, you are entering into a contractual agreement. You have specific legal rights and legal remedies against the insurance company in case they don't live up to their end of the bargain.

In the case of the SSA, you HAVE no legal rights or remedies--see the Flemming vs. Nestor decision.

It's a Hot Potato!
Many of the posters have made good points with suggestions to get Social Security out of the hands of the government (and particularly a Hillary-led Democrat government). But so much misinformation and brainwashing about Social Security has occurred that too many voters think there is no major problem, and they will not accept private accounts.

Perhaps it would be easier to sell a SS fix if it was phased in gradually. Those currently receiving SS would not be affected. Those under 32 would have a completely new plan - preferably an annuity administered by financial companies but monitored and guaranteed by the government. Those over 32 but under 67 would receive some from the current SS system and some from the new plan (apportioned by the percent of years contributing to the new plan).

I would prefer for EVERYONE to be required to contribute the SAME amount to the new plan, and then all receive the same new plan retirement benefit. Current Social Security is a transfer of assets from the upper middle class to the lower AND higher income classes. As pointed out before, the SS website gives all the information about the rip-off. Lower income people receive a much higher percentage of their averaged income as SS benefit versus higher income folks (up to the SS tax income limit). Wealthy people benefit because the past and current SS surplus is spent by our government (and not accounted as a government debt). Income taxes are lower as a result, and this benefits the wealthy.

I will not be holding my breath expecting our elected reps to get this right.

hey Inkling: We already have them
"A key element to solving the Social Security crisis will be TERM LIMITS in Congress."


We HAVE term limits, they are called elections. Two years for every representative, 4 years for every Pres/VP, and 6 years for every Senator. That fact that we keep electing them is the problem. Often, the fix is in preventing a viable candidate from running against them, either in a primary or open election.

Maybe we need to change the law to allow us to vote for w replacement. In a primary when running unopposed, or by a staw candidate, we should be allowed to chose "No confindence in any of the slated candidates". If that choice is the majority vote, all candidates on the slate would be removed and a new election held.

The same for open elections. "None of the above" would automatically eliminate the candidates slated including the encumbant. and we start over again.

The Crystal Ball of SS
If there ever was a crystal ball, its demographics. The children born 67 years ago are all starting to get checks. Those born 50 years ago will start getting them in 17 years, etc. The money is a sort of PONZI scheme in that whatever surplus from those putting into the system has been spent by Lyndon Johnson's transferring of SS into the general fund. (Congress has never met a dollar it couldn't spend).

But SS is a sustainable PONZI scheme If (and that is a really big if) there are enough persons entering the workforce, making enough SS taxable income, to sustain it.

Right about now, the first million and a half victicms of Roe V. Wade would have been in their fories, at the peak of their income levels, paying the max benefit into SS to sustain the scheme. But alas, the most successful families today are not having babies (DINKS) or limiting their "choice" to one or two. The only ones really pumping out the children are the illegal aliens trying to get themselves an anchor baby, and who will NEVER contribute enough into the system to pay either their way or their children's.
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