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Sunday, March 25, 2007
Paul Jacob :: Townhall.com Columnist
Winning the war on warming?
by Paul Jacob
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It's not cool to express skepticism about global warming. This doesn't worry me much; I gave up "cool" a long time ago. Still, the uncool must be ever so much more circumspect.

Last year, while wondering about the science and the evidence as well as worrying about the ideologies implied, I hazarded that, if people really believed in the scenarios of Al Gore and others, they'd be abandoning beachfront for hill property, right and left.

Now, Gregg Easterbrook has devoted an essay in The Atlantic to just that: who wins and who loses, economically, in a warming climate. It's the cover story in the April issue, and it's a fun read. Easterbrook explores what a warmer world might look like. His major conclusion: Russia, Greenland, Canada, and Canada's native populations (recently given quite a bit of autonomy in previously unwanted territory) will reap the biggest gains, as interesting times and warming climes bring a spring to the once-frosty North.

Whether it makes real sense about the weather . . . well, I don't know. Most of it is speculation. And is presented as such. One thing I come away with is this: Climate science is less exact than the "science" on the nightly news weather program.

So, it's like economics. Prediction isn't the name of the game, exactly. Explanation and warning are. Unfortunately, we plan by predictions. Sort of.

A number of researchers and pundits still fuss about the evidence for global warming, but, whatever else is said, melting glaciers and ice caps seem to be pretty good evidence for a warming trend. It doesn't really take an expertise in climatology to recognize that. Laying blame (for, really, the blame game is where this is all at, eh? otherwise, none of this would be "cool") is harder. What percentage is caused by human industry and automobiles, what percentage by livestock flatulence, and what by . . . the sun's radiation itself?

Scientists will likely argue about this for a long time.

Meanwhile, before buying a hilltop in Alaska (where warming might make moguls) or investing in a greenhouse-gas offset tree farm in the tropics (to plant, as Easterbrook suggests, the most oxygen-rejuvenating trees), we might want to think through the rationales for government action that are becoming popular.

Easterbrook makes an interesting point:

The New York Times recently groused that George W. Bush's fiscal 2007 budget includes only $4.2 billion for research that might cut greenhouse-gas emissions. This is the wrong concern: Progress would be faster if the federal government spent nothing at all on greenhouse-gas-reduction research — but enacted regulations that gave the private sector a significant profit motive to find solutions that work in actual use, as opposed to on paper in government studies.

This points to the great danger of having the issue of global warming being advocated mainly by the left, for those on the left seem congenitally incapable of thinking practically. The further one leans left, the more one leans on government, and the more one does that, the more one becomes satisfied with "symbolic action" rather than actual success. It's the besetting sin of the Left, you might say (let's not talk about the sins of the Right, right now; please!), and, if warming is real, substantial, and apt to change the world, it had better become an across-the-political-spectrum issue pretty quick. If not, we'll be stuck with the government wasting even more of our money and accomplishing nothing, or, worse yet, making matters worse.

For my part, I wonder about Easterbrook's own assumption. Yes, he knows that government research in technology often over-produces the under-performing. But, well, don't businesses have incentives to economize now? Oh, right: this is about what economists call "externalities":

The market has caused the greenhouse-gas problem, and the market is the best hope of solving it. Offering market incentives for the development of greenhouse-gas controls . . . is the most promising path to avoiding the harm that could befall the dispossessed of developing nation as the global climate changes.

I'm somewhat dubious. For one thing, blaming greenhouse gases on markets is kind of odd. There are no property rights to the atmosphere, not really. Markets depend on property rights. We have just as much reason to call it a government failure, no?

Besides, pollution is part of nature, and is something human beings do with or without markets.

Consider: one of the biggest problems for today's burgeoning space industry is all the space junk floating around the planet, left by astronauts in the early stage of our Space Age. And these missions were nearly all government-funded and government-directed! I've read a number of articles on the problems of space junk, but none call it a market failure, naturally. But, also, I don't recall the articles calling this problem a government failure, either. People are awfully reticent about blaming things on government, but not about blaming things on "the market."

It's just human. The blaming.

And the pollution.

We do what we do. We make small changes in our behavior. And, barring a "methane burp" to destroy us all, we will likely adapt to a warmer world, with varying degrees of . . . wisdom.

Still, in this context of a warming climate, with a possible rise in sea levels (I'd bet inches, not yards), does it make sense to rebuild New Orleans back to its full size?

Many current follies seem awfully strange in the light of this new scenario. And if we can't stop current idiocies, like the federal flood insurance for beach mansions (which as John Stossel has noted helps rich folk most), what hope is there to change old practices that are not so patently idiotic?

You know, the practices that heat our homes, feed our stomachs, and allow us to move about on the planet we can't help but call home.

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About The Author
Paul Jacob is President of Citizens in Charge. His daily Common Sense commentary appears on the Web, via e-mail, and on radio stations across America.
 
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Hey MassachusettsLiberal
Be careful with the "down with hate" slogan

If Hate disappears; the DailyKos, al Franken, Michael Maher, John Stuart, Ms. Garafalo et. al, are all threatened with mass extinction.

It takes a liberal to turn every argument into a matter of emotions doesn't it?

That is the problem with Democrats followers; they park the frontal cortex outside the polling place and go in and vote using only the medula oblongata.

Easier people to manipulate on the planet.

Lynne
Only article I found on a hole in the atlantic reaching to the mantle, says it is 3-4 km (appx 2-3 miles) in diameter. Still, kind of bizarre. (I saw the 200 mile mention here before in comments. Seemed a bit wide to me, so I decided to look).

If this is the wrong article, then let me know:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=143&art_id=vn20070307054241213C603917

"The hole is about 5 000m under the surface of the Atlantic and located half way between Tenerife and Barbados. It has a diameter of 3 000 to 4 000m. Its depth is unknown."

David Mac
Actually, thanks to micrometeorites, macrometeorites, dust and solar wind, we may have a small net gain of mass on the earth. Some of our atmosphere does go off into space, and we do periodically send some metal to the moon or out of the solar system, but I think we gain more than that in the mass we gain from micro- (and macro-) metoriates, space dust, and particles of the soalr wind that collide with the earth. So, we can sleep even easier. We are not only an almost entirely closed system in terms of losses, but we have some net gains as well.

Actually
If the left was worried about the amount of free carbon around which can produce c02 they would embrace the easiest way to sequester that carbon in a non-usable form. They would ask for as much population increase as possible. While that carbon is making up living humans it can't form CO2 to warm the planet. So we should try to get everyone to procreate as much as possible to sequester ever greater amounts of carbon.

So, why do enviro folks always support zero population growth, thus freeing more carbon into the environment as the population declines?

My new campaign
I am starting a campaing to make scholastic tests carbon neutral. No more of those "Fill in with a #2 pencil" test! Imagine the amount of carbon released in sharpening and using graphite pencils! No more! Ban the SAT to embrace a carbon neutral life!

No more absurd than paying a guy to plant a tree so Al can drive his SUV.

Algore the joke & the opportunity
How can anyone take Algore seriously. As a Tennessean, I'm proud of the fact we did not vote for this mixed up man. He is so bent on power, that he will do anything to get some attention.

I'm surprised that the media jumped on his bandwaggon so strongly, because he lives in the biggest glass house on earth. He is already embarrassing himself to those in the know, and his national reputation should be dirt any time now.

Question, do you think the back-lash (opportunity) on gore's movie will be big enough to sway the public out of this global warming frenzie?????????????

Plant a tree for more global warming!
It is interesting to note that while trees consume CO2, they PRODUCE methane, a greenhouse gas that is between 20 and 30 times worse (as a greenhouse gas) than CO2. Just something to keep in mind next time AlGore® flies in on his private jet (which consumes more gas in one cross-country trip as does a Hummer in an entire year) and contributes to global warming by opening his pie-hole.

RE: youmakemelaugh2, again
"However, I believe that the gap between scientific understanding of climate change and
public knowledge about the status of that understanding probably is due more to the impact of special interests on public discourse, especially FOSSIL FUEL SPECIAL INTERESTS, rather than political interference with climate change science," Dr. Hansen testified.
Dr. Hansen also stated

Yes, and after all, big corporations that stand to make TRILIONS of dollars, like DuPont, BP, and **ENRON**, all just have our best interest in mind as they funnel billions of dollars to you global warming scaremongerers, huh?

Stop continental drift
When you have accomplished that little feat, then we can talk about man's ability to "fix" the earth. Lunatic libdolts!

RE: youmakemelaugh2
"In my more than three decades in government, I have never seen anything approaching the degree to which information flow from scientists to the public has been screened and controlled as it has now," Dr. Hansen testified.

This twerp has given over 1400 interviews to the news media, and he claims to be "silenced"? Don't.Make.Me.Laugh.

It's about totalitarianism, not science
The more I hear about this matter, the more convinced I am that it's not about any scientifically demonstrable phenomenon that may or may not be happening, but about rationalizing totalitarianism. For now AGWT responses are about posturing, pork (e.g. ethanol projects), & propaganda.

One fine day, tho, we're going to discover we've handed the UNcle Sam, if not the UN, carte blanche to dictate and micromanage our personal energy use, with no accountability or reference to whether any particular measure actually would do anything about AGW if it were occuring. It seems to me the bare spare minimum we should demand here is that any measure or restriction imposed in the name of curbing AGW actually pass a rigorous examination of its effectiveness. Otherwise we will find that the AGW "science" always morphs so as to support whatever the elite happen to want to do in any particular instance.

Carbon dioxide is a naturally occuring substance in the atmosphere. It is consumed by a variety living and nonliving processes. Carbon dioxide produced by coal-fired power plants, gas-powered furnaces, and SUV engines is totally indistinguishable from that exhaled by cute lil' animals, belched by volcanoes, and generated by the bonfires, slash&burn fires, and game-driving grass fires set by eco-friendly noble nontechnological indigenous peoples. Carbon dioxide is a relatively weak "greenhouse" gas compared to, for instance, methane. The reason the greencommies obsess over carbon dioxide is that it is generated not as an avoidable impurity but as a direct inevitable byproduct of burning carbon for energy, therefore a campaign against "capitalism," the American standard of living, and freedom, can hide behind an assault on carbon dioxide.

There's recent precedent for agendafied 'science' in support of lefty objectives. The great gun grab campaign of the '90's was supported by researchers twisting the science of epidemiology in such a way as to allow them to "prove", and be written up in respected medical journals, for antigun propaganda that was ultimately discredited. I wonder if those guys are still getting federal grants? Almost certainly. So forgive me if the pedigrees and publication of AGWT alarmism doesn't impress me like it should.

Jacob said a mouthful pointing out what a big culprit government is in trashing the planet. The Soviet Union has left memorials to itself in the form of pits contining such intensely radioactive waste that merely to stand at the edge and look in is suicide. Look at the Kyoto treaty giving a complete pass to major socialist carbon dioxide producers other than the US. If the guvamint does it, it's OK.

As I see it, "winning the war on global warming" consists of forcing the AGWT advocates to put up, with a rigorous demonstration of all their propositions, or be discredited.

CONSERV(E)atism
There is nothing wrong with conserving. After all, many of us claim to be conservatives. If recycling something is cheaper and cleaner, I'm all for it. I prefer to reuse materials over purchasing new materials. Being cheap and thrifty is both good for Ole Mother Earth and my wallet.

However, I refuse to eat the bullcrap being spewed by the AGW crowd. Why do they persist on believing that man must be the ultimate cause of everything?

Marc of CA
However, you need to be careful, Marc, because the whippy/flippy tree-huggers will explain that these "new" trees are not of the SAME quality as the trees that we humans have harvested. "Older" trees have more value to them than ones that we plant for harvesting in the future.

MassLib
I am certain your last post info was peer reviewed. The same fantasy world you live in that believes man can create a utopia also believes Conservatives don't like the earth. If Conservatives are not advocating changing it and you are, who is it the doesn't like the earth?

Colmes-esque question
Why do liberals hate reality? I mean we know they hate capitalism, the military, America, but are they actually anti-reality? I mean, in reality, there is no hard facts that global warming is a threat to anyone, but all kinds of really hard evidence that islamofacsist killers want to cut thier little commielib heads off, yet they are more worried about the former. I would say liberals should enter an asylum but they are also anti-sanity. Good thing thinking people are rejecting their worldview. Down with liberalism.

I have a question for you GW fearmongers
I ask this all the time and no one ever tries to answer; how is it that we are unable to consistently and accurately predict the temperature forcast in any given 5 day period, yet we should make drastic lifestyle changes based on shaky information at best, that isn't supposed to happen for another hundred years? That is, we don't know with any certainty what will happen in a week, but we will make draconian policy decisions about events that will take place in a hundred years? And it's not just temperature, before last year's hurricane season, all kinds of catastrophic damage was predicted and none of it panned out. Is the planet warming? I don't know, maybe. There is all kinds of data out there that suggests, well, nothing. In some spots of the world it appears to be growing in temperature, yet there are other places that appear to be cooling (what do you people in Ohio think?). I do think that if the global climate does rise the unbelievable 1.3 degrees or whatever that is predicted, we will find a way to deal with it. Hell, worse case scenario, I'll move to Canada.

ChairmanMao
Right on.

Man in Nature
I though Liberals were fans of Darwin

When our ancestor transverse the land bridge between Asia and America thousands of species were hunted to extinction; the horse and the dromedary only survived in Asia where they passed from America.

Have anyone seen a bumper sticker begging for the salvage of the killer bee or the fire ant, to save the nutria in the Louisiana swamps or the boa constrictor in the Florida everglades?

What are wild parrots doing on Telegraph Hill, in San Francisco?

How come we are helpless to eradicate these pests, of our own creation, from our front yards yet; in Gore's mind, we can will the weather of the planet?

The Messianic delusion that we are not a child of nature but a God-ex-Machina of the planet’s climate is an escape into the future of the failed communist notion that humans are able to control and transform their own nature. With the proper tyranny.

The only difference is that environmentalists are even more psychotically delusional than communist were; after all, Marx only wanted to transform our economic relationships, while environmentalists pretend to lay claim to the whole system of human technology.

Hole in the Earth's Crust

Where is AlGore when we need him most?

BTW, I'll bet any amount that not one "scientist" will admit that this missing crust is evidence for Noah's flood.

Despite evidence contrary to evolution and the age of the Earth being somewhat less than a million years, not one "reputable" scientist will go against belief in Evolution.

I love this topic
Global warming is such a fun thing to talk about because the lefties go berzerk defending it because it is their religion. I will say it plainly; Global Warming is the home of displaced communists who were disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Their ultimate goal has nothing to do with protecting the earth, it is about instituting world-wide communism over which they consider themselves the leaders. They use fear to convince people to alter their lifestyles and to condemn those who disagree with the whole concept. The enemy of the global warming alarmists is capitalism. They push this agenda with increasing voracity because they are convinced the American people are dumb enough to believe it and they have last November's election to cite as proof.

Marc of CA & Magnificus
I really suckered you guys in on that joke. LOL
You really thought I was serious about there being a hole in the floor of the Atlantic Ocean?


http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=551685

Winning the war on warming
Some people have a very inflated opinion of Human importance. The earth has warmed and cooled many times in recorded history and also in geological eras. Before any human ever sparked the first carbon emitting fire.

During a cooling trend in the nineteen-sixties some people hyped global cooling as a coming disaster. Scare tactics are not new but as long as some people remain gulible, scary preditions will remain in vogue.

There is, of course, a real culprit in the Earth's warming and cooling. It is that big orange ball we often see in the sky. It is like a furnace with an flaky thermosat. It's thermo output varies a bit from time to time. The Sun hurls billions of tons of energy toward the earth. Probaby more energy, from the sun, arrives every hour than Humans have produced, in our entire existance.

There is one really scary prediction that will most likely come true. The Sun will not last forever and all life including Earth itself will cease to exist. This worst case senario is not expected to happen for billions of years, but it is it ever too soon for scare tactics.

Happy
demands that, "We have to replace what we use. We can't take from the earth and not give back."


Happy, I've got good news for you. EVERYTHING we consume is eventually returned to "the earth". It's a closed system. Nothing we use (except for stuff we've left on the Moon, Mars and sent out of our solar system) vanishes into the ether.

EVERYTHING is ultimately recycled. The planet, not humanity, is the ultimate consumer. It ingests EVERYTHING we put into it, digests it all and then gives it back. It may take a few million years or merely a few days (water, for example), but it's all one big cycle.

Sleep well, Happy, your planet is safe.

Happy
My previous post is just rude. I appologize for coming off harshly. It is just that I will not give in one more inch to the GW crap. Recycle and conserve if you like. There is no need but you hurt no one.

Happy
Again - Nice sentiment. Unfortunately based on false premises again.

We are, in indisputable fact, replacing trees in America faster than they are being cut down. There are MORE trees here now than when you were a youngster. So what other propaganda are people buying into to make them feel like they have to do "something" to be good stewards of the planet?

We are being good stewards. It's just that now some of us get to talk down to others about their lifestyles based on wrongheaded assumptions.

Let me guess - you don't feel better knowing we are replacing trees fast enough.

200 mile diameter hole
in the Atlantic floor... c'mon people, the answer is so obvious I'm surprised at all of you for not seeing it!!

1000 miles of it was snatched away by the Bermuda triangle... and the remaining 1000 miles of it was snatched away by aliens...the remaining 2000 miles GOT INTO AL GORELEPHANTS BELL-EEE...if you think my math is off its the Gorelephants fault I'm just using his new carbon credit math that says... consume at a rate 20 times higher than normal to break even.

BTW... alien stop-overs with their gas guzzling hyperspace machines cause the polar caps on Mars to melt.... Sheeesh, don't you consirtivs know anything.


Happy, you are wrong
I don't know where you get your info but there are more trees being planted than harvested, at least in North America.

I deal in paper products every day and as such know the per ton price of paper, which is processed wood.

I'd say you are doing the right thing with conservation as I do, but we have plenty of trees. More than ever before.

baseballdoc
posted, "google Green Communism you will get 382,400 hits ...the Envoironmental movement has become the new home of Communist Ideology".


Quite right, BBD!

The socialists need constant revolution in order to further their goals of grabbing power and money. They can't do it by rationale argument or public discourse, so they create the boogyman of "anthropogenic global warming" and state that the debate is over.

The socialists' solution to AGW is to destroy capitalism in America. It's that simple. Never mind that Red China, India and third-world countries are spewing pollution into the environment; it's apparently only the USA that needs to be cleansed of capitalism.

The socialists will then say, "We'll run the country and private enterprise for a while, then give it back to the people." (Yeah, we'll get what's left of it after the politburo guts it like a fish)

Ways to Undo Harm we caused
After all the hype and discussions, we do need to reverse the way we do business. For example: Trees clean the air, give off oxygen humans need and take in carbon dioxide. We're cutting down trees faster than we are replacing them. Trees offer shade that cuts down on the use of air conditioners and trees help hold moisture. Scientists all agree there is a delicate ecosystem. Look around you next time you go for a drive -- urban development. Population is booming -- around 7 billion people on the planet -- and rising! We have to replace what we use. We can't take from the earth and not give back. We've gotten greedy and there's a big price to pay for convenience and comfort -- less may be better -- I moved to a smaller home, grow some of my own vegetables, make car trips more productive when I have to go out; make an effort to use less electricity. It all starts with each of us giving up a few things that are not essential. We need to learn to make less garbage and stick to a program. All that talk and in the meantime, they're cutting down more trees, garbage is piling, and things are heating up.

Hole in the ocean floor?
Sounds pretty weird to me. Like to see a link for that!

Perhaps this newly found ocean-hole will be a match for the evil ozone hole that almost destroyed the Earth two decades ago. That was a really close call, almost ended civilization!

I'm sure my changing from aerosol hair-spray to a to a pump saved us. No doubt.

I hope AlGore never "get's wind" of this or we will have to start saving rocks to fill in the hole.

If it's so, then what?
Given the magnitude of the natural forces involved, how will mankind's pathetic efforts overcome the inertia of something that takes centuries to change?

Lynne
Oceanogrophers keep finding all kind of things I would be happy to NOT know about, like;
A 200 mile diameter hole in the Atlantic floor that goes clear down to the mantle.
They say you can look straight down and see the Earth's mantle!

Make you wonder why that hole does not silt in?
Or what causes it and if it is getting bigger?
Spookie!

The Sun
I can accept that the earth has warmed 7/10's of one degree in the last 100 years. That is not impressive at all.

Before I buy the AGW THEORY I want to have it explained to me how the increased energy coming from the Sun has NOTHING to do with surface temperature.

I'll wait here for the kook responses thank you.

Citywolfe
I think Exxon pumped all that oil up to Alaska so that one day they could harm the caribous.

Can't post anything today
I blame Al Gore.

Questions
Why we all must believe that the opinion of a ‘scientist’s’ (the left wing equivalency of a priest) is always pure as the driven snow even when said ‘scientist’ is on the government payroll or, otherwise sucking from the public tit, but; it is always malevolent and self-serving is said scientist works for an energy concern?

AH! The leftist myth of the selfless government bureaucrat!

How can corporate oppression can even come close to government oppression?

Do you guys remember the good ole’ days of Janet Reno and the ATF sending their storm troopers into American Homes?

Oh, that is right; Republicans always support authority; even Janet’s Reno.

Umakemelaugh2
You quote Dr. Hansen as a REAL EXPERT.

This is the same expert who worked for NASA? Who was often in trouble for speaking out?

The same Hansen who took a $250,000 "research grant" from the Heinz-Kerry Foundation?

Thank goodness there is no special interest there!

Put a Scientist in your pocket
Question:

What are the chances of a ‘scientist’ whose livelihood depends on a grant from the ‘marine mammal preservation act” disputing the truth about Global Warming?

Republicans just don’t get it; they are funding the upcoming establishment of the United Soviet States of America

How accurate is Global Warming forecast
when the ten day weather forecast incorrect.

Dear Paul Jacob
Paul: Because you do a daily Common Sense commentary (and I read it and love it) I'd suggest you grab a copy of THE DEATH OF COMMON SENSE By Philip K. Howard and browse through it.

You said “but, whatever else is said, melting glaciers and ice caps seem to be pretty good evidence for a warming trend……”

That makes me believe your common sense is sick in bed, not dead yet, just a little ill.

In the meantime, why not explain to your readers how global warming covered the World War II P-38 fighter plane, that landed and was abandoned in Greenland near the Arctic Circle in 1942, with 268 feet of ice over a 50 year period of time.

You can read about it at the following link.
Fearl Smith

http://p38assn.org/glacier-girl-recovery.htm

No GW problem
Conservatives need to stand firm: there is no global warming problem. The data and analyses are all produced by pointy-headed, left-wing intellectuals who lack scientific training. Real scientists oppose the claim that GW is taking place. The earth's climatic zones and behavior were programmed by God when he made the universe a few thousand years ago. There have never been times when the earth was excessively hot or cold. Ice ages are a fiction created by liberal humanists, as are so-called "mass extinctions" attributed to massive volcanic eruptions or asteroid strikes. No large asteroid has ever struck the Earth, and never will. All policies proposed to combat GW are the work of Communists; defenders of capitalism know that no conceivable amount of human economic activity can affect the Earth's climate. Ayn Rand's paroxysms of delight when she saw industrial pollution are right on!

CO2 Offsets
Only Global Warming Hypocrites purchase CO2 offsets.

The Public is becoming more aware
There was an intresting debate on NPR - (I know, I Know), on whether GW was a crisis. The debate consisted of three spokesman for and con on each side , and was moderated by Leher. Before the debate began the NPR auidence poll figures were as such:

30% - no crisis
48 % - crisis
12 % did not know

After the debate:
47% - No crisis
30 % crisis
13 % - did not know

It shows that even liberals can be convinced when the media presents both sides of the argument. I would encourage you to listen to the discourse. It is almost hilarious how pious the AGW's sound.


The New Home of Communism?

.....Jacob ...

.....If you google Green Communism you will get 382,400 hits ...the Envoironmental movement has become the new home of Communist Ideology ...how to seize power and gain control in three easy lessons ...1. Create a problem (in the minds of the masses)... 2. Wait for the reaction (fear and panic) ...3. Propose a solution that will give you your original objective ...

.....to the followers of this movement ...it is a religion ...to the leaders it is a political means to an end ...power and money ...

.....First the Problem ...acid rain is killing our forests ...freon is causing a hole in the ozone ...DDT is killing our wildlife ...CO2 emmissions are burning up our planet creating floods ...droughts ...starvation ...pestilence ...and disease ...

....Next show pictures of fuzzy polar bears ...melting glaciers (where do they think icebergs come from?) ...flooded coastal plains in animated propaganda cartoons ...until the plebes are whipped into a frenzy and demanding that action be taken ...

.....Finally the coup de grace ...identify fossil fuels as the culprit and levy heavy penalties and taxes on the Energy Companies (As Willie Hutton said when asked why he robbed banks, "That's where the money is") ...

.....so that is the new Communist tactic ...to "Change Ethical Standards" ...
...Wealth is not good ...it is bad ...
...Technology is not good ...it is bad ...
...Man is not good ...humans are destroying the Earth ...
...and voila ...Orwell's "Reality Control" and a brand new religion is born .....COLOSSUS


Points
1. Good observation by Bill O'Rights that the AGW propaganda is so insidious that even Jacob has fallen partial victim to it while arguing against government intervention.

2. For citywolfe - interesting theory you present. It's refreshing to see a TH poster with a fresh theory on this that is scientifically credible and doesn't depend on partisan politics and/or the presumption of a political conspiracy.

3. Mstone makes a great rebuttal to youmakemelaugh2. I would add that it is the AGW believers, including Algor himself, who are trying to stifle discussion by declaring "The debate is over." These politicos wouldn't know a real debate if one kissed them on the lips.

4. For Vic - the point I am at now is that I instinctively disbelieve ANYTHING any leftist says anymore. I figure (1) they have an agenda they're not telling us about, (2) they are lying, and (3) even if they don't have an agenda and aren't lying but are honestly trying to do some good they are so incompetent they can't possibly get it right anyway (See "Social Security", "The War on Poverty", " The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution", "DDT", "Global Cooling circa 1980", anything Jimmy Carter did, and "Hillarycare" for examples).

5. Finally, for JFP. Not only does the left include janitors as part of their "special interest" stereotype, they also include the shareholders of Big Oil, most of whom are the same investors and 401K owners the left said got screwed by Enron, WorldComm, et al during the great Clinton stock bubble scandal (which the left blamed on Bush for inheriting it).

youmakemelaugh2
Just for the record, my skepticism comes from leftist humanities professors. They rammed Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions down my throat. Now it's hard for me to take science like this seriously.

And just what do you mean by "fossil fuel special interests?" Are you thinking of the CEOs of oil companies? How about the janitors who work for these oil companies? Be precise, please.

Mr. Jacob
You said “but, whatever else is said, melting glaciers and ice caps seem to be pretty good evidence for a warming trend……” This would be true if ALL glaciers and ice caps were melting. What the advocates of AGW continue to do is offer selected evidence. They cherry-pick data that supports their assertions and throw out data that does not support their assertions. Sure, some glaciers in the Northern Hemisphere are receding. Some in the Southern Hemisphere are increasing. What is the net world-wide change? We do not know because no one has sat down and tried to do an integration of the overall effect. It may not be possible to do that anyway.

I too used to be ready to concede that there was some overall increase in temperature based on the “measured” temperatures during the last 100 years, not withstanding the “heat island effect“. But then I found that the actual measure temperatures were not being used in the averages. The measured temperatures are being “adjusted” by some k-factor which I have not been able to determine. In addition, the temperatures measured by overhead satelites are also being adjusted by a k-factor. Anytime you adjust actual measured variables by some unknown K-factor the situation is ripe for abuse. We already k now that the AGW alarmists falsified the data in the infamous hockey stick graph. We already know that, while using true data in the CO2 vs. Temp graph, they present it in a scale that does not show the true correlation between temperature and CO2 (and that is with the altered temperature data).

At the point I am at now, I am not willing to concede anything anymore, except that this entire issue appears to be a massive fraud designed to benefit 3rd world dictators and a few other opportunists who are more than willing to jump on the government gravy train of manufactured markets.


MStone
Don't waste your time trying to convince laughing stock of anything. He's convinced, and there is no changing his mind (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, to say the least).

His attitude is that since we don't buy into it, we must be confused. My stance is that I have not been convinced that global warming is a problem. Therefore, I refuse to climb onto a broken train. I always bypass his posts. He mainly cuts an pastes from the top ten talking points of the socialists anyway. He refuses to see any other point but his own...with regards to his blind follower-ship of the left. I don't believe he has an original thought, and doesn't comprehend application theory vis-a-vis his ability to apply what he reads and hears. It's easy to be a parrot...It's difficult to think for yourself.

I will gladly allow all of the GW followers of the Goracle to give up their livelihood and standard of living if they so choose. Since libs are big on choice, so I choose a resounding NO!

In fact, because they are so adamant about it, I plan on buying a new SUV that guzzles as much gas as I can afford. I realized that environmental retards always gain more and more ground, incrementally. I stopped recycling...they want it so much...let them sort the garbage.

I refuse to give anymore. That's my rebellion.

Regarding Jacob's column, he seems to have begun to buy into the GW scam, mainly by his admission that there is a problem at all. Regardless of GW , I think it's a bad idea to rebuild New Orleans. The land is below sea level, it's filled with liberals, and all liberals should stop talking and start more doing to prove that THEY believe this bullsheep.

Global Warming
In a past comment, I mentioned that movement of tectonic plates resulting from earthquakes has caused a shift in the spin axis of our planet. By the way, other planets have spin axis shifts too. The axis shift, considering the mass and the spin inertia of our planet may take decades or centuries to effect a global warming or cooling. For instance, the San Andreas fault results in one tectonic plate rubbing against another in a Northwest-Southeast direction. More tectonic mass pushed towards either of the poles is going to shift the spin axis of our "gyroscope" earth with a subsequent temperature change.

Oil and coal result from decayed vegetation. Now, where did all of the vegetation come from in Alaska to decompose into oil? Nobody carried it there and it had to be natural growth. Vegetation of that mass doesn't live in freezing weather and none of us can imagine lichens being that prolific. It had to be naturally occuring global warming that would turn Alaska into a tropics. This phenomenon would occur from an overactive sun or a change in spin axis or both. The splitting up of Pangaea into separate continents would easily to the job.


Youmakemelaugh
Both you and Hansen have to be kidding.

The news media trumpet the theory of anthropogenic global warming every chance they get. There was "blockbuster" movie about it a couple of years ago, and a piece of AGW propaganda just won the Oscar for best "documentary".

In public schools, children are bombarded with the theory.

Public employees like Hansen hold forth on it every chance they get.

And every time, the theory is presented as established fact.

Meanwhile, serious scientists question the theory and point out the considerable evidence against it. But nobody except the alternative media ever seem to talk about them.

Hansen and his ilk are the ones confusing the government.

As for "special interests", Al Gore has a financial interest in a company that was built to profit from greenhouse gas regulations. Academics are far more likely to be published and far more likely to get grants if they find support for the AGW theory than if they find evidence against it.

There are special interests on both sides of the debate, so we should probably just try to reason out the issue based on the available evidence.
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