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Monday, June 15, 2009
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Madness, Madness...
by Paul Greenberg
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Tuesday, September 11, 2001. A day full of shock, anger, fear. And confusion. The country was under attack. And at first it wasn't even clear who had attacked us.

The identity of the attackers became clear even as the fires still raged: This was the work of the same bunch of terrorists who had tried to topple the Twin Towers back in 1993. Back then the killers had been treated as defendants in federal court, with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto. They would be convicted only after a lengthy and arduous trial. As if theirs had been not an act of war but a violation of the criminal code.

*** Special Offer ***

Now we had been attacked again -- by the same fanatical enemy that had struck our embassies in Africa, and attacked the USS Cole just a year before off Aden, killing 17 American sailors.

And again we had been caught unprepared.

Sometime during that swirling day, in the midst of all the madness, I had a column to write. The only catch: It was supposed to make sense. Maybe even suggest a course of action.

When in doubt, plagiarize. Excuse me, research. And what better source to crib from than the ever energetic, not to say frenetic, Teddy Roosevelt? In his time, specifically 1904, an American businessman of uncertain citizenship, Ion Perdicaris, had been kidnapped in Morocco by the last of the Barbary pirates, the Sherif Ahmed ibn Muhammed Raisuli. Talk about a name to conjure with!

TR was not impressed. He promptly dispatched (a) a naval squadron to Tangier, and (b) a telegram offering the kidnappers a choice: "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead."

Bully for him! After many a complication and some comedy, Mr. Perdicaris would come home to a White House reception. End of incident.

In 2001, the culprit had an exotic name, too: Osama bin Laden. He was thought to be somewhere in the mountainous terrain of Afghanistan at the time (and may still be) under the protection of the Taliban. Borrowing a leaf from Teddy's book, I wrote a column suggesting that the American response to the attacks that day ought to be just as clear and concise as TR's had been: Osama alive or the Taliban dead.

Bully! Another column out of the way. Remarkable how one borrowed idea can be stretched into 800 words or so.

But wait. For there's many a slip 'twixt writing and publication. An editor at the syndicate called to say there was a problem.

Oh, really? What was it?

Well, his boss had noted that Osama bin Laden and his gang, aka al-Qaida, hadn't been convicted or even indicted for this crime. Therefore, his supervisor wanted to know, how could I write that al-Qaida was responsible? And for no better reason than it was obvious.

The country was now at war but at least one hotshot editor in Chicago was still thinking like a civilian. Which was not a comfort.

To calm myself, I chose to meditate on the final scene in "The Bridge on the River Kwai," the David Lean film in which Alec Guinness plays the correct British colonel and prisoner of war who's completely lost touch with the larger reality, i.e., the war he's supposed to be fighting. Instead, he has concentrated his mind and efforts on the fine railway bridge he and his troops have built for their Japanese captors in the middle of the jungle. Good show, old boy!

The proper colonel can only watch in horror and dismay as his proud handiwork is destroyed by Allied commandos. His is a madness within the greater madness that is war.

The final words of the film occurred to me when I was warned of the legal risks I risked by accusing the obvious perpetrator of all this mayhem without proper documentation.

Madness, madness . . . . !

After a polite if pointed conversation with my editor's editor, the column's reference to Osama bin Laden was retained.

Still, it would have been a consummation devoutly to be wished if Mr. Bin Laden had indeed shown up to file suit for libel. What a pleasure it would have been to meet him, complete with a welcoming committee from the CIA, FBI, and 101st Airborne, and maybe even get a chance to interrogate him--excuse me, interview him--en route to Guantanamo.

The words linger in my mind -- Madness, Madness! -- and recur every time various lawyers, including the current president of the United States and commander-in-chief of its armed forces, proceeds to explain why we need to follow the rules of criminal procedure in this war rather than the laws of war.

President Obama continues to speak of his predecessor's decisions as "the policies that got us into this mess," even as reality obliges him to adopt them one by one. Whether it's reviving the use of military commissions to try terrorists or keeping tabs on international phone calls or declining to release inflammatory photographs of interrogations. By now he's even following much the same strategy in Afghanistan -- the Surge -- that finally turned things around in Iraq.

But our still new president proposes to close the military prison at Guantanamo by a date certain -- the end of the year -- without having decided just what he's going to do with its occupants. A minor detail.

This president and lawyer can explain his legal rationale at length, plying his profession in the midst of the continuing chaos of war. Listening to his dulcet tones, I think of that single-minded British colonel focusing on his own profession, civil engineering, and building his little bridge in the midst of the jungle, war or no war, and can only think:

Madness, madness....

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Poor little terrorists.
Obama could always house some of the Gitmo gang in the Lincoln bedroom. I'm sure that Harry Reid would put up a few at his house and Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank could give shelter to the rest.

Come on guys, give some poor victims of American Evil a hand.

Someone else might think
of Kurtz's last words in "Heart of Darkness": "The horror! the horror!" Or Macbeth's sad meditation beginning, "Out, out brief candle."

I think it requires an almost insane optimism to believe that the Current Occupant of the White House has a handle on the international or the domestic situation, unless he intends serious harm to the country.

Smelling some blood in the water 1

Careful Paul, you might be the next one accused of wishing ill upon your country to prove yourself right!

The overt propaganda arm of the Democrat Party (AP) has found a new gem of incredible stupidity and banal abjuration of all sane discourse by which to provide cover for the naked ignorance being perpetrated from the administration of Barack Hussein Obama and its dangerous daliances with the pre-911 mentality that is reinstituting the same policies that led to the September 11, 2001 disaster.

In the Associated Press' latest bullyrag on Conservatve opinion, the headline reads:

Sunday, June 14, 2009
CIA head says Cheney almost wishing US be attacked

AP News reports, as news:

"CIA Director Leon Panetta says former Vice President Dick Cheney's criticism of the Obama administration's approach to terrorism almost suggests "he's wishing that this country would be attacked again, in order to make his point."

Panetta told The New Yorker for an article in its June 22 issue that Cheney "smells some blood in the water" on the issue of national security"
_____________________________________________


This is the kind of pap coming out of the Obama administration and its propaganda arm, the Associated Press. It is ludicrous for anyone to suggest that Dick Cheney, a man Barack Hussein Obama and the Democrat left would like to see put on trial for being "overzealous" in PROTECTING America by using what Barack Hussein Obama and the left characterize as "torture," to NOW be accused by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency of hoping that America is attacked because Barack Hussein Obama's policies of coddling terrorists is, in Cheney's opinion, making America less safe.


Smelling some blood in the water 2

This current round of asinine and juvenile "whining" is just the latest attempt to divert the scrutiny from Obama's kowtowing apologizing and extremely naive and dangerous policies of Muslim appeasement and wishful thinking, to bastardizing the motives of those who point out the insanity of Barack Hussein Obama's policies and lack of reasoned leadership decisions .

CIA Director Leon Panetta, rather than having the integrity, balls, or both, to stand up and tell Obama that he agrees with Cheney's warnings, is now taking the tact of blaming Cheney, in case of further attacks, as WISHING them upon America.

This is a shill and further highlights the level to which Democrats and liberals will stoop to vilify anyone who dares object to the destructive and dangerous, unqualified, and astonishingly naive Islamic appeaser we are now suffering in the nation's White House.

All CIA Director Leon Panetta is revealing is that he himself is a COWARD!

It won't be Cheney's WISHING that will result in another attack, and Panetta knows that as well as anyone. If ANYTHING, it will be Panetta's ineptitude and cowardice in failing to tell Obama the truth about the calamitous direction his appeasement policies are taking; in having CIA agents, FBI agents, and soldiers on the battlefield to treat enemy combatants by reading them Miranda rights!

Can you imagine a Marine or soldier telling an Islamic terrorist combatant caught setting a roadside bomb in Afghanistan "You have the right to remain silent?"

Smelling some blood in the water 3

All Panetta is providing is his tacit admission that there will likely be more terrorist attacks down the road with the course Obama is leading us on; make no mistake about it.

If all the undermining of President Bush and our troops on the battlefield under the Democrats and liberals during his administration didn't cause any terrorist attacks, how in the world is Vice-president Cheney's support for stronger measures for protecting the American people, and keeping dangerous Islamic terrorist suspects in Guantanamo and off American soil, WISHING for an attack?

If one would take into account all the rantings and press releases heard around the world of Jack Murtha, John Kerry, Dick Durbin, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and all the other Democrats in Congress calling our soldiers and Marines "Nazis," "Murderers," "terrorizing women and children in the dark of night," saying "the war is lost," calling Gen. Petraeus a "liar," calling our troops actions as being the same as the actions of Pol Pot in Cambodia, and calling Pres. Bush and vice-Pres. Cheney "war criminals" at the height of the war in Iraq; how would that NOT be considered, by Panetta's reasoning, their WISHING for another terrorist attack, OR WORSE, that we suffered a complete defeat at the hands of the Islamic terrorists and Al Qaeda that we were fighting?

Did the previous Director of CIA, under Bush, George Tenet, go crying to the media to say that these "leaders" were almost WISHING for another terrorist attack with THEIR comments condemning, not only the President's policies, but the TROOPS themselves who were risking their lives on the battlefield?

Vice-president Cheney is simply voicing the opinion that many Americans share, and history has PROVEN to be true! You cannot reason with people who hold it as their destiny and duty to bring about your annihilation!

Smelling some blood in the water 4

Since when did speaking out in defense of one's country having a strong resolve to protect its citizens become dangerous to those citizens, and WISHING for them to be attacked?

Vice-president CHENEY has already proven his resolve to keep America safe and he succeeded; much to the chagrin of Obama and Leon Panetta who would like to see him punished for doing such a good job of it!

For Panetta to turn that around now, in the face of what is clearly the Obama administration's almost maniacal attempts to return to a pre-911 mentality that would embarrass even Bill Clinton, and make such a facetious accusation, is farcical at best and an indication of his being over his head, in running our nation's Central Intelligence Agency, at worst!

This is tantamount to Winston Churchill being considered as WISHING for Britain to be attacked by his warning English leaders of his day that any attempts to avoid going to war with Hitler's Germany could not be realized by a policy of appeasement!

Panetta's comments are nothing more than the whimperings of a coward and a man who knows that he is out of his depth to protect us; having himself been handcuffed by the limitations set on CIA agents by his master, the Muslim-appeaser-in-chief, Barack Hussein Obama.

Leon Panetta's comments are a cover for his own impotency, and a desperate attempt to shoot the messenger; to fire the whistleblower; and to divert attention from the reality of his unsustainable situation.
It won't be Dick Cheney's WISHING for another attack that will be the cause of the next one...

...it will be the cowardice, moral weakness, ignorance, and ineptitude of Barack Hussein Obama and the idiots and pretenders (Leon Panetta being prominent among them) he has surrounded himself with that will result in emboldening the enemy to attack a weakened America, and lead to the additional losses of American lives.

Smelling some blood in the water 5

Barack Hussein Obama'a policies of appeasement and Muslim-love are paving the way for Iran, Al Qaeda, and every America-hating group on the planet to challenge and attack the American people...and Barack Hussein "Goddamn America" Obama is taking the first shots at sowing the seeds and paving the road of our destruction.

CIA Director Leon Panetta would do well to focus on the policies of his Commander-in-chief, not engaging in stupid and childish attacks on Cheney's warnings of their sure to be failure at succeeding in protecting us from what is sure to be the end result of their stupidity.
"Panetta told The New Yorker for an article in its June 22 issue that Cheney "smells some blood in the water" on the issue of national security"
_______________________________________________

QUESTION: If, as Panetta says, Vice-president Cheney "smells some blood in the water on the issue of national security," isn't Panetta then admitting that there is "blood in the water on the issue of national security" to be smelled?

QUESTION: If Cheney "smells blood in the water on the issue of national security," wouldn't it follow that Al Qaeda also smells some "blood in the water on the issue of national security"?

QUESTION: If Cheney, as an American who knows how to effectively fight terrorists as his record proves, "smells some blood in the water," doesn't it make more sense to enlist his support and to mine his wealth of knowledge in order to find the means to staunch the flow of "blood" rather than to make the asinine statement of childish accusation, rejection and whining that Panetta has chosen in response to those warnings?


Smelling some blood in the water 6

Upon reading these comments coming from the Director of the CIA, Panetta ought to know that he is do nothing to staunch the flow of the smell of "some blood in the water," he is only signaling to the terrorists that they ought to be sniffing around too.

"Last month the former vice president offered a withering critique of Obama's policies and a defense of the Bush administration on the same day that Obama made a major speech about national security."

DELIBERATELY SKEWED CONTEXT?
Cheney's speech was scheduled for at least 3 weeks before Obama made the decision to give a rebuttal speech of his own ON THE SAME DAY that Cheney had already scheduled his! Not the other way around as this AP writer would skew the context.

Vice-president Cheney didn't (as the propagandist who wrote this article suggests) offer his "withering critique" "on the same day that Obama made a major speech about national security"...Barack Obama chose to make his speech on the same day that Vice-president Cheney was already and beforehand scheduled to make his speech! Barack Obama's entire speech was a pitiful and staged attempt at trying to offset the damage and embarrassment the White House realized that was sure to result from Cheney's speech, and to take the sting out of Cheney's "withering critique" of Obama's inane policies of Muslim terrorist @$$ki$$ing as a result of Obama's failed attempt to empty Guantanamo's terrorist prison camp and allow terrorist suspects to run free in American neighborhoods, while "relocating" here on the American taxpayer's dime.

Further (as if he has not humiliated himself enough):"Panetta said of Cheney's remarks:

"It's almost, a little bit, gallows politics. When you read behind it, it's almost as if he's wishing that this country would be attacked again, in order to make his point. I think that's dangerous politics."


Smelling some blood in the water 7

This, on its face, is the most telling remark from Panetta: "gallows politics""dangerous politics"? Is this what the Director of Central Intelligence thinks Vice-president Cheney's concerns about national security are: "politics"?

More alarmingly THAT comment coming from Panetta (who is, after all, a POLITICIAN) PROVES that he is unfit to set aside HIS politics and fealty to the Democrat Party and its agenda, and to focus on concentrating his attentions on the national security of this nation.

While Leon Panetta, as Director of Central Intelligence, should be giving his undivided attention to sniffing out the terrorist plans of Al Qaeda and others who are plotting terrorist attacks, he is more concerned with providing cover for the mis-administration of our national security by Barack Hussein Obama.

Leon Panetta, by engaging in a political smear campaign against Dick Cheney; unleashing some made up characterization of Dick Cheney's warnings as "gallows politics" because of his being embarrassed by Cheney's voicing his concerns that Obama's policies are making us more vulnerable, signals Panetta's own being at a loss to perform his sworn duties as CIA Director.

Can you imagine being an agent working under such petty leadership that sees patriots as being the enemy wishing death and destruction on this country, while the President he himself is working for is engaged in coddling and virtually aiding the real and identified enemy who has ALREADY carried out the most devastating attacks on America in the history of our Republic?

Smelling some blood in the water 8

The signal Panetta sends to the Islamic extremists by his comments, are much more likely to cause us to be attacked than Cheney's WISHING (if such a claim could possibly tbe hought to make any sense) could ever make likely.

Such remarks as were made by Panetta are equivalent to my characterizing someone's warnings to me to "Hey, don't go down into that neighborhood because the gangs are out, I know, I've dealt with them before, and you're likely to be hurt or killed," as that person's wishing I be shot; and "gallows politics!"

And my reply to his warnings would be: "Oh...duh...the only reason he's telling me that is because he wants me to get shot."

This is LUDICROUS, and by the time that magazine hits the newsstands, Panetta ought to have done us all a favor by resigning his position as Director of the Central Intelligence Agency...

...WISHING that would be in the best interest of America's national security and might contribute to there being a little less of the smell of some blood in the water.

But we, as Conservative observers, must all be careful, Paul. We may be the next ones accused of "smelling some blood in the water." And in our "smelling [that] blood in the water," we, like Vice-president Cheney, may be accused of WISHIING for another attack to prove ourselves right...and I guess, according to Panetta's implication, to use it as an opportunity to delight in the murders of innocent Americans just to get at Barack Hussein Obama.

Even if you DO smell "some blood in the water" because of Obama's inane policies, you must learn to keep your mouth shut.

You know..."gallows politics"..."dangerous politics" and all that...

Madness, Madness...

OncealwaysaMarine
Have the guys at Townhall offered you a column spot yet?

Mike

Location: MA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 2:28 AM EST OncealwaysaMarine
Have the guys at Townhall offered you a column spot yet?
__________________________________________

Thanks, Mike...I appreciate that!

No they haven't, but I do get a little long-winded sometimes! I'm sure you would agree!

I DID get an email from Star Parker recently...responding to one of my posts on one of her postings!!

BLEW MY MIND!!

and as you can probably guess, made my day!!

She was laughing about my proposing to her.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber


Joel-De Oppresso Liber


How to Create a Blog on TownHall...


1. Go to the top of the "Columnist's Page" page

2. Click on " Sign Out "

3. At the top of the new page on the right hand side, is a message:

" You have logged out of the system. To log back in, click here. "

The " click here " is a link

4. After you 'click here' , you will go to a page that has a place for you to give your email and password... enter your bone fides, and login.

5. You will see the following :


Manage Your TownHall.comManage Your TownHall.com Hello, ' your name '.. (If you are not ' your name ' click here.)

Update Your Information ................... Review Your Votes
Change Password ............................. Review Manage Your Podcasts
Create/Maintain your Own Blog ........ Change What Emails you receive
Edit your Newsletter email List .......... Review Your Actions Taken

6. Click on " Create/Maintain your Own Blog "

7. Now simply follow the easy to read instructions, and fill in the blanks.


8. Since I have ONLY very slow 'dial-up', this took me about 10 minutes to go through these steps.


If you have Broadband, this should take you no more than a couple of minutes.

~~~~~~~~~

Now, for the fun part ! You can now post...

The entire Constitution Of The United States, and all of the amendments thereof.

You can comment on each and every part.

Also you can include important documents and comment on each,
such as The Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation,
The Federalist Papers, The Gettysburg Address,
You can have a section called Patriot Quotes, and there are thousands of these.


It sounds like very interesting reading to me.

I will even suggest a Blog Name:

" The Daily Constitutional "

Good luck, Sir !

No Constitutional Rights

A foreigner on foreign soil does NOT have nor can he be granted Constitutional rights. The difference between the first WTC attack and those behind the second is that the perpetrators of the 1993 bombing were apprehended on American soil. As far as we know, Osama bin Laden and the majority of AQ & the Taliban have NEVER even stepped foot in the United States.

The sheer madness behind conferring Constitutional rights and the reading of Miranda rights to enemy combatants in Afghanistan grants expands our Constitution beyond anything originally intended by our Founding Fathers.

The next thing that we will hear is that Obama is conferring Constitutional rights on the subjects of and visitors in the UK so that a madman cleric and Michael Savage both can have the right of Freedom of Speech.

Perhaps, the President of the United States should uphold his Oath of Office where he swore to uphold the Constitution, not to abrogate contraccts so as to redistribute wealth or give foreigners in foreign lands rights. It is the citizens of the United States who are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, not some Muhammed in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq.

Idiotic.

Easier way to do this
Ratas y Ratones
Location: IN
Reply # 2
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 3:34 AM EST Joel-De Oppresso Liber


Joel-De Oppresso Liber


How to Create a Blog on TownHall...

>Actually there is a quicker way, just paste a long article here and they will re-direct you to creating your own blog for longer articles.<

Comments are limited to 2,000 characters. For longer comments, we invite you to create a Townhall blog by clicking here. (Once you create your own blog, your future comments will automatically link to your blog).

Rule of law
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 14
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 4:13 AM EST No Constitutional Rights

A foreigner on foreign soil does NOT have nor can he be granted Constitutional rights. The difference between the first WTC attack and those behind the second is that the perpetrators of the 1993 bombing were apprehended on American soil. As far as we know, Osama bin Laden and the majority of AQ & the Taliban have NEVER even stepped foot in the United States.

>This has nothing to do with our constitution, this is simple rule of law. What person in the world should not deserve the right to know the charges, to be able to confront their accusers and to defend themselves against the evidence? Our justice system is not perfect but it beats the alternative of holding secret kangaroo courts!<

Barney Frank????
No, no AKA Charlie--put 'em up at Nina Tottenberg's house, then send some to Obama's friends in New York: The three main news anchors, plus a few to Rachel Maddow and to Keith "Overthehill" Olbermann, some to Sen. Kennedy's compund in Massachusetts, and the rest to Blago's house and Rev. Wright's house in Illinois.

Jim, CO
>This has nothing to do with our constitution, this is simple rule of law. What person in the world should not deserve the right to know the charges, to be able to confront their accusers and to defend themselves against the evidence? Our justice system is not perfect but it beats the alternative of holding secret kangaroo courts!<


Who's rule of law? Ours, which is based on the Constitution, or Afghanistan's where the death penalty is imposed from crimes less than murder?

I suggest that you study Constitutional Law and Constitutional Criminal Procedure. I have ... in law school. Please let us know where you went to law shool.

If you had the slightest understanding of the Constitution and caselaw involving same, you would understand the distinction between US citizens and foreigners here AND foreigners on foreign soil.

UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE has traditionally been used in enemy combatant cases. Further, Obama is keeping military tribunals.

What next is Obama going to draft lawyers and send them to tag along with troops in Afghanistan? If I were out on patrol the moment that the troops even momentarily detained an individual on the battlefield, I would step in and say that my client is not talking.


Cheney the expert
Yea ... Cheney would be an expert on knowing when an attack is imminent.

One of the stupidest things that Condi Rice ever said was: “I don’t think that anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center.” Of course, today, she is trying to outdo herself by saying that she doesn't remember any urgent briefing mid-July 2001 from George Tenet and Cofer Black about the extreme terrorist threat on the United States by al Qaeda. The only reason the second statement doesn't outdo the first is that the first was so much closer to the actual events, and today she at least has the fog of some five years that could give her some excuse for not recalling that specific meeting. Perhaps she has early dementia.

Yet, to me, it is telling that both lies can be disputed by news reports about the G8 Summit held in Genoa, Italy in July 2001.

One news item that grabbed my attention about that summit in July 2001 was how George W Bush was going to sleep offshore on a US fleet ship because there had been a threat that he was a target for assassination.

Here's a CNN report that showed that Italy worried about an aerial attack at the summit.

The Italian authorities' security measures also include the positioning of surface-to-air missiles at Genoa's Christopher Columbus airport. Dubbed the SPADA, the land-based system consists of missiles capable of a range of 15 kilometres (9.3 miles).

The ministry said the decision to install the missiles is not excessive.

"There's no excessive precaution," military spokesman Colonel Alberto Battaglini told Reuters. "The measure, which was planned by the previous government, may seem open to criticism, but in reality it is merely to act as a deterrent against any aerial incursion during the summit."


melvin h in CO.
Ha I think you may have something there. I suppose Barney would enjoy the male bonding a bit too much.

Yeah I like that. Every left wing phony journalist should get their very own terrorist, murderer or child molester to have and to hold until death do them part. They could take them to work and to parties; it would be like a sleep over that never ends.

As for Barry's NY friends, I'm not sure that there is much difference between them and terrorists. But I could be wrong. That happens a couple of times a decade.

But I can't go along with sending any terrorist to live with Wright. That's worse than waterboarding. And Blago would just talk them to death. That's called cruel and unusual punishment and ain't allowed.


Article 3
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 5:07 AM EST

If you had the slightest understanding of the Constitution and caselaw involving same, you would understand the distinction between US citizens and foreigners here AND foreigners on foreign soil.

>They may be foreigners but like it or not, unless Bush secretly gave Gitmo back to Fidel Castro ... they are being held on US soil and fall under the rule of law of the USA.<

After the Bush administration asserted that detainees were not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Conventions, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld on June 29, 2006 that they were entitled to the minimal protections listed under Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.[4] Following this, on July 7, 2006, the Department of Defense issued an internal memo stating that prisoners would in the future be entitled to protection under Common Article 3

Common Article 3

It describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory's territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even though no one is classified as a prisoner of war.


Jim

I think that I specifically named Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. Do tell where I mentioned Gitmo?

Fine, Jim

You give terrorists all of the rights that you deem fit and I will immediately volunteer my legal services to the detainees in Afghanistan on a pro bono basis. My clients will remain silent even before they are Mirandized.

There will be no interrogation.
There will be full and complete discovery, including, without limitation, all such classified documents as allowed by a court.
The court shall be opened to the public.
Each defendant shall have the right to confront his accusers.
There shall be full cross-examination of any and all governmental employees or representatives.
All Constitutional rights shall be enforced.
All ConCrimPro rules shall be apply.

And, Obama will name a "Jim's Attorney Corps" to tag along with the troops.

You keep confusing Constitutional law with the UCMJ and military tribunals.

The Department of Defense issued the memorandum that you cited, not the Department of Justice nor a court of competent jurisdiction.

Where are holding them?
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 2
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 6:05 AM EST Jim

I think that I specifically named Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. Do tell where I mentioned Gitmo?


>Where are we holding them Denise? They may be picked up in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq but sooner or later ... they do end up on US soil.<

It Depends, Jim

Obama is still using rendition to transfer detainees to other countries for "interrogation" and detention.

Also, for months I have argued that Obama has been inconsistent in his reading of Boudemiene. Boudemiene was the Supreme Court decision that held detainees at Gitmo were entitled to habeas corpus rights. Obama is on the record as saying that Boudemiene does not apply to the enemy combatants held at Bagram AFB.

Whether Obama is merely Mirandizing enemy combatants at Bagram or granting (by what law?) full habeas corpus rights I cannot tell because the Obama Administration has been so secretive. You will recall that it was a Republican member of the House Intelligence Committee, who disclosed the Administration's order that combatants should be read their Miranda rights, not the Administration.

No one is stoppin you
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 6:18 AM EST Fine, Jim

You give terrorists all of the rights that you deem fit and I will immediately volunteer my legal services to the detainees in Afghanistan on a pro bono basis. My clients will remain silent even before they are Mirandized.

>Wasn't me that gave them these rights under article 3 Denise ... it was the Supreme Court. They disagreed with Bush's interpretation of the Geneva conventions and an enemy combatants rights and how he can be tried.

If you are a lawyer ... then I fail to understand why you would want to deny anyone the minimal rights of a fair trial? Since nearly 500 of the original 750 detainees have been released under Bush ... obviously even they knew some of the charges were bogus and that they were holding innocent men.<


Common Article 3

The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even though no one is classified as a prisoner of war.

Jim

I am an attorney.

Why don't you explain Obama's position on Boudemiene? How is Bagram different than Gitmo?

I argue that there is no difference and Obama is incorrect in his legal interpretation.

I suppose that you support closing Gitmo and transferring the detainees here, as prisoners or free men, both of which are contrary to the bast majority of Americans. They are not welcome here and Americans want Gitmo to stay open.

You Are Missing The Point
"Why you would want to deny anyone the minimal rights of a fair trial?"

The issue is not a fair trial. The question is whether to try enemy combatants in criminal court (like a drug dealer who is an American citizen) or in a military tribunal.

In Hamdan, the Court issued a 5-3 decision holding that it had jurisdiction, that the administration did not have authority to set up these particular military commissions without congressional authorization, because they did not comply with the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Geneva Convention (which the court found to be incorporated into the Uniform Code of Military Justice). Notice the Court focused on congressional authorization.

I did not agree with Hamdan and disagree with Obama's interpretation of Boumediene.

Let America treat all of those caught on a battlefield like the typical American criminal, which is ludicrous proposition.

Rights
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 2
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 6:41 AM EST It Depends, Jim

Obama is still using rendition to transfer detainees to other countries for "interrogation" and detention.

>I have no problem with rendition, if we capture a terrorist and need to move him, that is ok. What I do have a problem with is torturing them into confessing they are guilty instead of giving them the minimal rights accorded to them under the Geneva Conventions. As a lawyer ... what is your problem with knowing for what crime your client is being picked up for?<

Also, for months I have argued that Obama has been inconsistent in his reading of Boudemiene. Boudemiene was the Supreme Court decision that held detainees at Gitmo were entitled to habeas corpus rights. Obama is on the record as saying that Boudemiene does not apply to the enemy combatants held at Bagram AFB.

>To which I disagree with, if we are holding them for a reason ... then they should at least be able to know the reason.<

Whether Obama is merely Mirandizing enemy combatants at Bagram or granting (by what law?) full habeas corpus rights I cannot tell because the Obama Administration has been so secretive. You will recall that it was a Republican member of the House Intelligence Committee, who disclosed the Administration's order that combatants should be read their Miranda rights, not the Administration.

>Yes and I know how much you Republicans hate those who would give our secrets to the press. Unless of course Bush says it is ok to do so!<

KHAMEINE'S PLAN TO HUMILIATE OBAMA
Click my name and read all about it.

AMAZING!
How hypocritical the left is: they wanted to crucify three innocent students at Duke - MSM convicted them without trial - and they held up signs saying "Castrate Them!"

Certain Duke professors, lots of politicians and hordes of NCCU students said that it didn't matter at all if the students were guilty or not. So much for due process!

And the evidence against them was hidden, a prosecutor turned a nation against them.
So much for justice. The poo almost stuck.
And the left didn't demand fairness for these young men, as they're weeping for terrorists.
Doesn't matter if Obama called for a federal investigation: that was KC Johnson's efforts that accomplished that, and Obama is a smart politician, not a savior.

President Haman is showing his real stuff these days.


There You Go Again, Jim- I
>I have no problem with rendition, if we capture a terrorist and need to move him, that is ok. What I do have a problem with is torturing them into confessing they are guilty instead of giving them the minimal rights accorded to them under the Geneva Conventions. As a lawyer ... what is your problem with knowing for what crime your client is being picked up for?<

D: I have no problem with advising a detainee of the charges. The problem is that a 1L law student could get any of the detainees in Gitmo or Bagram out of detention, if a criminal trial is held. No Miranda, no trial. No 5th Amendment rights, no trial.

As for rendition, you had better hope that the detainee goes to Jordan. If he goes to Egypt, he will be tortured. If he goes to Saudi Arabia, he might disappear. Of course, if the detainee is sent to Yemen, he will be back operating in terrorist mode as soon as he completes the sham rehab center.

D: Also, for months I have argued that Obama has been inconsistent in his reading of Boudemiene. Boudemiene was the Supreme Court decision that held detainees at Gitmo were entitled to habeas corpus rights. Obama is on the record as saying that Boudemiene does not apply to the enemy combatants held at Bagram AFB.

J: >To which I disagree with, if we are holding them for a reason ... then they should at least be able to know the reason.<

D: You disagree with Obama or me?

Then we agree?
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 6:57 AM EST Jim

I am an attorney.

Why don't you explain Obama's position on Boudemiene? How is Bagram different than Gitmo?

>I have no clue what his or his advisors thinking is on the point ... I suppose we will have to wait for the legal brief on their challenge to US Distric Courts John Bates denial of their motion.<

I argue that there is no difference and Obama is incorrect in his legal interpretation.

>I agree ... so what are we debating then?<

I suppose that you support closing Gitmo and transferring the detainees here, as prisoners or free men, both of which are contrary to the bast majority of Americans. They are not welcome here and Americans want Gitmo to stay open.

>I really don't care if they are held in Gitmo or brought here, the point is ... if they committed crimes. Then take them to trial, show us, them and the world the evidence for holding them all these years. Arab countries are not upset that the US captured, tried and sentenced to prison the 1993 WTC attackers. But Bush's interpretation and treatment of these detainees has left us looking hypocritical in the eyes of the rest of the world. And it is hard enough to sell this idea of democracy ... when we act little differently from these same countries!<

There You Go, Again, Jim - II
D: Whether Obama is merely Mirandizing enemy combatants at Bagram or granting (by what law?) full habeas corpus rights I cannot tell because the Obama Administration has been so secretive. You will recall that it was a Republican member of the House Intelligence Committee, who disclosed the Administration's order that combatants should be read their Miranda rights, not the Administration.

Jim: >Yes and I know how much you Republicans hate those who would give our secrets to the press. Unless of course Bush says it is ok to do so!<

D: There you go, again, assuming facts not in evidence. I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN. I am a Constitutionalist and did not support Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq. Further, I would have carpetbombed Afghanistan and not sent one pair of boots to march the ground. If you do not want to get bit by ants, then you must take out the antpile.

Some madness is incurable
Despite years of violence going back perhaps as far as the assassination of Robert Kennedy, the dim bulbs illuminating Congress, the Clinton administration, and other institutions never thought of Islamic terrorists as more than pests to be dealt with by law-enforcement agencies. They brightened up briefly on 9/11, moreso after it became evident that Flight 93 was meant to incinerate the Capitol. But then they fell right back into their old habits, treating the Department of Homeland Security as just another jobs program; foreign combatants as wayward citizens; and the war on Islamofascism as something else to be praised, condemned, manipulated, and nitpicked for short-term partisan advantage.

Most of them are so far gone, they don't realize that Miranda warnings on the battlefield and the rest of their sorry agenda are setting us up for further catastrophic reverses abroad and at home. The rest don't care. When the next buildings fall, they'll all join hands and sing "God Bless America." They'll authorize the president to do anything necessary, yada, yada, yada. Then they'll return once more to business as usual -- more investigations of the CIA and a $10 billion appropriation for the Robert C. Byrd Onion Research Center.

There's nothing we can say or do to give these people a reality principle or a moral compass. The best we can hope for is to drive them from power and react swiftly whenever they try to sway public opinion as civilians.

Excellent column Mr. Greenberg
Yes...,madness, madness.

Off with their heads and paint the roses red.Down is up and up is down. Barry Dunham's come to town!

Liberal plot?
Jim
Location: VA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 7:18 AM EST AMAZING!
How hypocritical the left is: they wanted to crucify three innocent students at Duke - MSM convicted them without trial - and they held up signs saying "Castrate Them!"

>How did this become a leftist plot ... were these 3, members of the Young Republicans ... was that the real reason he went after them?

No, it was an overzealous DA trying to make a name for himself. If anything ... this proves why habeus corpus is a foundation of our law. Once the charges were held up to the light of day ... they were dropped and the DA was disbarred. The system does work ... but only when the secrecy part is taken out.<

Jim

How was Bush being hypocritical in keeping detainees at Gitmo? We have NEVER given enemies full Constitutional rights to our enemies. Did we give Nazi POWs constitutional rights? Norko soldiers in the Korean War? The Viet Cong? Grandan soldiers? Serbian troops?

Did we bring any of the POWs from the above conflicts back to the US to stand trial? No. And, that is the entire point ... what is the proper jurisdiction to try enemy combatants?

Good grief. The docket in our court systems is congested enough without affording non-citizens captured on foreign soil a trial in civilian criminal court.

In the 1993 WTC, the defendants were captured on US soil; thus, the criminal court system was the proper venue.

My position continues to be that the civilian criminal court system is not the proper place for enemy combatant trials.


And I am Independent
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 2
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 7:23 AM EST There You Go, Again, Jim - II


D: There you go, again, assuming facts not in evidence. I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN. I am a Constitutionalist and did not support Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq. Further, I would have carpetbombed Afghanistan and not sent one pair of boots to march the ground. If you do not want to get bit by ants, then you must take out the antpile.

>And you voted for who in 2000 and 2004?

I'm registered an Independent ... but I think you know how I vote.

Anyway, in Dec 2001, Bush/Rummy had the right plan to defeat the Taliban and crush AQ in Afghanistan. Had they crushed them in Tora Bora then ... we wouldn't be trying to figure out how to keep them from getting Pakistan's nukes today. There was a brief moment when the entire world was behind Bush in getting OBL ... now Obama is working to get some of that goodwill back. Hard to figure why some on these boards are so againt that idea.

Paleocon is right
Liberal democrats have the attention span of gnats.

Jim

Who did I vote for in 2000 & 2004?

Well since I cannot stand Fat Al Gore, the answer is simple.

And, John Ferrie? Please.

Neither could be considered Constitutionalists when they stood for election.


Shoot, because I do not drink, I had to take NyQuil in order to vote for McCain.

I hope that this country finally breaks the two-party system. Both do the same thing that they criticize the other of doing.


As for Afghanistan, I do not approve of sending another 50,000 - 75,000 troops (we already have 90,000 there) to the meatgrinder of Afghanistan. No one has ever won a war against the Afghanis. During the 700 years of the Ottoman Empire, they always went around Afghanistan. The Soviet Union learned the same lesson.

As Newsweak opined, Afghanistan can easily become Obama's Vietnam.

Military Operation Or Police Action?
"In short, we're starting to return to the dangerous Clinton-era policies of treating terrorism mainly as a law-enforcement issue, not a national-security threat.

What's wrong with applying the investigative techniques, evidentiary standards and protections for the accused of a US criminal investigation to foreign terror suspects captured outside of the United States? Simple: It will allow many suspects to game the US legal system -- and free some terrorists to fight again.

As the first fruit of the administration's drive to close the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani arrived in New York last week to face trial, indicted in the 1998 bombings of US embassies in East Africa, which killed 224 people. He was captured in Pakistan in 2004 working with Al Qaeda. What happens if he's found not guilty? Will he get to roam the streets of New York?"


Do we treat the "war on terror" (or whatever the nom du jour is) as a police action or a military operation?

How does Obama get around the REAL ID Act, which he voted for while in the Senate and prohibits the US from allowing anyone with "terrorist connections" from entering the country?


And the problem is?
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 2
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 7:37 AM EST Jim

How was Bush being hypocritical in keeping detainees at Gitmo? We have NEVER given enemies full Constitutional rights to our enemies. Did we give Nazi POWs constitutional rights? Norko soldiers in the Korean War? The Viet Cong? Grandan soldiers? Serbian troops?

>No one is asking them that they be given full constitutional rights. They were arrested for a reason ... why not show them and the world the reasons? Why the secrecy, why closed courts with no way for them to even know what the charges are? This sounds more like something the Soviets did in the bad old days. Didn't they celebrate Reagan defeating this!<

Did we bring any of the POWs from the above conflicts back to the US to stand trial? No. And, that is the entire point ... what is the proper jurisdiction to try enemy combatants?


>No they turned them over to South Vietnam and they still treated them under "Article 3" of the Geneva conventions. I'm guessing that North Vietnam holding US pows had a lot to do with this.<

Good grief. The docket in our court systems is congested enough without affording non-citizens captured on foreign soil a trial in civilian criminal court.

In the 1993 WTC, the defendants were captured on US soil; thus, the criminal court system was the proper venue.

My position continues to be that the civilian criminal court system is not the proper place for enemy combatant trials.

>So then bring them before a military tribunal, just as long as they are afforded the minimal rights accorded under the Geneva conventions.<

So you are Republican
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 3
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 8:00 AM EST Jim

Who did I vote for in 2000 & 2004?

Well since I cannot stand Fat Al Gore, the answer is simple.

And, John Ferrie? Please.

Neither could be considered Constitutionalists when they stood for election.


Shoot, because I do not drink, I had to take NyQuil in order to vote for McCain.

>Well since as Cheney pointed out that Powell voting for Obama makes him a Dem ... guess that makes you a Republican! After 8 years of Bush, a lot of people had to hold their nose to vote for McCain ... just not enough of them.<

I hope that this country finally breaks the two-party system. Both do the same thing that they criticize the other of doing.

>I think in a sense we do ... the Independents have been swinging the elections for some time now.<


As for Afghanistan, I do not approve of sending another 50,000 - 75,000 troops (we already have 90,000 there) to the meatgrinder of Afghanistan. No one has ever won a war against the Afghanis. During the 700 years of the Ottoman Empire, they always went around Afghanistan. The Soviet Union learned the same lesson.

As Newsweak opined, Afghanistan can easily become Obama's Vietnam.

>Like I said ... Bush's 8 years could have been so much different had he just gone after OBL and forced Iraq to let in the inspectors. We wouldn't be as far in debt and perhaps McCain would have had a shot at winning in 2008. We'll never know.<

Jim
So then bring them before a military tribunal, just as long as they are afforded the minimal rights accorded under the Geneva conventions.<




I think that is what I have been arguing. And, I have not argued that they should be denied the knowledge of what the charges are.

The issue is whether we are going to treat the detainees/enemy combatants captured in the GWOT/overseas contingency operation as alleged participants in a military operation or a police action.

We went the way of a police action during the Clinton Administration even though AQ continued to attack us. Further, the 9/11 Commission determined that KSM and his followers largely planned in the Clinton Admistration. I am not blaming Clinton or Bush for 9/11, but I fail to see how approaching "whatever it is that we are engaged in" as a police action.


If I Am A Republican

You are a Democrat, not an Independent.


I was against Iraq, Bush's spending, his bailouts, TARP, Medicare Part B, etc., and I vocalized my disapproval.

I detest Progressivism and find it to be extraordinarily destructive. You should learn more about Teddy Roosevelt, who believed that private property could be seized without court approval, if it benefitted the "common good".

And, then there is Woodrow Wilson. He created the Federal Reserve, imprisoned ~150,000 Americans for things such as dissent and antiwar demonostrations. He had suffagettes and homosexuals committed to mental asylums for "fixing".

In his first term, FDR admitted that he based the New Deal on the ideals of TR and Wilson.

Nixon was Progressive, to a degree ... nationalizing rail lines to create Amtrak (which is still being subsidized 33 years after it was supposed to be profitable) and he created the EPA, which can implement its own rules and regulations without Congressional approval.

To OncealwaysaMarine
First, I want to thank you for your service. We would not exist as a nation without people like yourself who have given of their time and skills to make sure our enemies are kept at bay.
Second, I agree with Mike in MA that maybe some of your posts (like this one) should be provided its own space as a column.
Third I completely agree with you regarding the Obama administration's tactics regarding criticism of its policies. They attack the disagreer by slandering and dispariging them so that they have to make no attempt to support their policy or position. Typical of the left, because there is no real support for their positions or policies. Everything they do can be shot full of holes with logic and past history.
This administration especially seems to be the worst in this regard. If you don't support their plans, you are a racist, biggot, ultra-right wing zealot (nut), corrupt or greedy.
I have NO respect for any of them and stand willing to call them on their authority to do the things they are doing.

Jim Co
I've been reading the communiques between you and St. Denis.

Jim ...,you have swallowed every lie espoused by the far left dems. since 2003. THEY were the reason that the country turned against the war. They did not do it for any moral reasons,(as they claimed). They did it to win elections!And they did. They won because much of the public bought their swill.

You need to educate yourself about what has been happening and IS happening to this country before you put on your little debating cap!Jon Stewart and Bill Maher are not real good sources of hard news.

Let me say that the biggest lie you seem to have embraced is,"We have outsourced Bin Laden". Not true Jim, not true. You really need to set yourself straight on that whopper!

Do you really think that George Bush jeopardized his Presidential legacy by conducting a two front war and OUTSOURCING Usama Bin Laden? It defies logic!

Your lament that Bush's eight years could have been so much different had he just gone after O.B.L. would make you a laughingstock at military bases around the nation, especially among our Special Forces.

Lastly, PUHLEEZE....,if you are getting any info from Newsweek at least balance it out with The Weekly Standard or something.

what is in a name
What else would the messiah of Islam do to his children at Gitmo, except send them to Burmuda on vactions (on our tax dollars) while Americans lose their homes...
After 9-11 We should have been smart enough to recognize the slmilarity of Obama's name with Hussein and Osama..
Did America think Islam's jihad to take over the wrold ended on 9-12...Why were we not smart enough to know Jihad would put a man into the white house and destroy us from the inside...Beginning with the rigged election..

Water Under the Obama Bridge
Thanks Mr. Greenburg for a very astute comparison! I can see what Obama the lawyer is projecting based on his experience a a lawyer.

Having had no military service or training and therefore very little understanding and respect for it, Obama tries to protect terrorists just like the British Colonel tried to protect his bridge. His Marxism accounts for much of this. Part of this mixed-up, upside-down reasoning stems from his lawyering and from his only "real" work with groups of people-mostly with minorities as a community organizer. Does he see the Islamic terrorist as the ACORN underdog? I think he does. And if he does believe that , then he is a very sick president and a failed protector of we the American people--- indeed!!. Given his view, the terrorist has just received a considerable up-grade!!

"In the habits of legal men every accusation appears insufficient if they do not exaggerate it even to calumny. It is thus that justice itself loses its sanctity and its respect among men."--Lamartine.

"There is much reason to apprehend, that the custom of pleading for any client, without the determination of right or wrong, must lessen the regard due to those important distinctions, and DEADEN THE MORAL SENSIBILITY OF THE HEART." Percival

Obama's heart has been deadened. His ears do not hear the voice of the Constitution and his eyes are blinded to the very foundations of this country--One Nation under God. What I see as Obama madness in promoting the Mirandizing of terrorists is merely "water under the bridge" for him. And a very great current of danger to all of us.

Option 3 - None of the above
"Osama alive or the Taliban dead."

...and 9 years later, we still have neither. And no, we're not at "war" with anyone in any coherent legal sense. The madness comes from the shrinking handful of my fellow conservatives who continue to imagine we are.

Life in these United States
will continue to deteriorate unless common sense replaces the current PC insanity. A few more million layoffs should provide Joe and Jane Sixpack with the time to do a little thinking about the results of not voting or not bothering to investigate the issues. Americans will do the right thing, after all other options are found to fail.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
Location: NV
Reply # 50
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 10:05 AM EST Ratas y Ratones
"It sounds like very interesting reading to me.

I will even suggest a Blog Name:

" The Daily Constitutional "

Good luck, Sir !"


Thank you for your suggestion. Part of me thinks maybe I should offer a poll here on TH on what to name my new blog, but then the rest of me says to pick a name myself.

~~~

Kind Sir, Joel...

Pick a name for yourself, as I was just teasing.

OBTW, "HappyJake" offers an easier way :


[ click on 'Your Account' at the right hand of the top of the page.
tip from "HappyJake" ]


Manage Your TownHall.comManage Your TownHall.com Hello, ' your name '.. (If you are not ' your name ' click here.)

Update Your Information ................... Review Your Votes
Change Password ............................. Review Manage Your Podcasts
Create/Maintain your Own Blog ........ Change What Emails you receive
Edit your Newsletter email List .......... Review Your Actions Taken

6. Click on " Create/Maintain your Own Blog "

7. Now simply follow the easy to read instructions, and fill in the blanks.


As soon as I see the 'bar' under your handle, I will visit your blog !

The Rat

Hey! I'm a Terrorist!
Send me to Bermuda!

Mr.Moneybags
As President Barack Obama flies Monday to Chicago for a midday speech on health-care reform, the round trip on Air Force One will run about $236,000, according to government estimates of the operating costs for one of the top symbols, and perks, of the presidency.

But that does not include such expenses as Secret Service protection, motorcades and helicopter transports.

After landing at O'Hare International Airport, Obama is scheduled to spend about 2 1/2 hours here. To avoid snarling traffic on the Kennedy Expressway, he likely will be taken from the airport by helicopter to a location near the Hyatt Regency Chicago.

Welfare For Lawyers
This is why we are reading Miranda to enemy combatants. Life would be so much better if lawyers ran everything! But they do run just about everything, don't they? Before you know it all military operations will have to be approved by lawyers. Wait, they already have to be.

Yup, I see nothing but good things ahead for a country which so reveres it's lawyers and case law but can't obey the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

Shakespeare revised
Macthemadman: just a few months ago, the idea of reading Miranda rights in the heat of battle to foreign combatants on foreign soil would've been considered a puerile joke in most circles. Now it's SOP. Consequently, the famous line in _Henry VI, Part 2_, needs updating:

"The first thing we do, let's send all the lawyers to the front."

Maybe Dear Leader should build an entire division of lawyers to oversee the preparation of halal meals for our guests, check for landmines, and draw sniper fire.


Oopsification
Sorry about the double post.

Well then debate
LC
Location: MD
Reply # 13
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 9:52 AM EST Jim Co
I've been reading the communiques between you and St. Denis.

Jim ...,you have swallowed every lie espoused by the far left dems. since 2003. THEY were the reason that the country turned against the war. They did not do it for any moral reasons,(as they claimed). They did it to win elections!And they did. They won because much of the public bought their swill.

>Every lie? And which ones are those ... that Iraq had no WMD ... Bush admitted that. That Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 ... Bush admitted to that ... even Cheney just admitted to that.

The voters did not turn against the war because of anything we said ... they turned against the war because what Bush said turned out to be all wrong!<



You need to educate yourself about what has been happening and IS happening to this country before you put on your little debating cap!Jon Stewart and Bill Maher are not real good sources of hard news.

>Stewart and Maher just like Limbaugh and Hannity only comment on the news ... they give their take. We are both free to accept or reject whose opinion we put more stock into.

So debate ... tell me why it is wrong to give accused men the minimum rights afforded under Article 3 of the Geneva conventions?<




Part 2
LC
Location: MD
Reply # 14
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 9:52 AM EST

Let me say that the biggest lie you seem to have embraced is,"We have outsourced Bin Laden". Not true Jim, not true. You really need to set yourself straight on that whopper!

Do you really think that George Bush jeopardized his Presidential legacy by conducting a two front war and OUTSOURCING Usama Bin Laden? It defies logic!

> Yet OBL did get away and is now fighting in Pakistan 7 years later ... explain that!

AQ and the Taliban were trapped in Konduz in Dec 2001 ... the US stepped back and allowed them to be airlifted out of Afhganistan. Look it up if you don't believe me. Now they are fighting in Pakistan and a threat to take over a nuke armed Muslim country.<




Your lament that Bush's eight years could have been so much different had he just gone after O.B.L. would make you a laughingstock at military bases around the nation, especially among our Special Forces.

>Yea right, I am sure the SF's would have passed up a chance to get the terrorists behind the murder of 3000 on 9/11???<



Lastly, PUHLEEZE....,if you are getting any info from Newsweek at least balance it out with The Weekly Standard or something.

>Actually I do get the Standard along with Newsmax ... it is much easier to debate someone when you already know their arguments.<

I vote Dem now
St. Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 16
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 8:53 AM EST If I Am A Republican

You are a Democrat, not an Independent.

>Most prefer to call me a Lib ... but I did vote for Ford in 76, never did like Carter. Voted for John Anderson in 1980 ... didn't trust Reagan either. And Bush 41 in 1988 ... what a disappointment he turned out to be. Neither Clinton or Obama were my first choices but I prefered them over any Republican put up to run.<


I was against Iraq, Bush's spending, his bailouts, TARP, Medicare Part B, etc., and I vocalized my disapproval.

I detest Progressivism and find it to be extraordinarily destructive. You should learn more about Teddy Roosevelt, who believed that private property could be seized without court approval, if it benefitted the "common good".

And, then there is Woodrow Wilson. He created the Federal Reserve, imprisoned ~150,000 Americans for things such as dissent and antiwar demonostrations. He had suffagettes and homosexuals committed to mental asylums for "fixing".

In his first term, FDR admitted that he based the New Deal on the ideals of TR and Wilson.

Nixon was Progressive, to a degree ... nationalizing rail lines to create Amtrak (which is still being subsidized 33 years after it was supposed to be profitable) and he created the EPA, which can implement its own rules and regulations without Congressional approval.

>TR was a man of the times ... back then big business and robber barons really and truely did exist. Workers were nothing more than a tool to be discarded when no longer needed. After his Presidency ... big business crawled into bed with the GOP and it has been that way ever since.

While attitudes towards women, minorities and the common worker have changed over the last 100 years ... mostly for the better as far as I am concerned.<

It was just a movie
Barbara
Location: AZ
Reply # 11
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 10:29 AM EST Water Under the Obama Bridge
Thanks Mr. Greenburg for a very astute comparison! I can see what Obama the lawyer is projecting based on his experience a a lawyer.

Having had no military service or training and therefore very little understanding and respect for it, Obama tries to protect terrorists just like the British Colonel tried to protect his bridge.

>It was just a movie, the actual Col. built two bridges which the Allies bombed and they continued to repair till the end of the war.

Still, when a court system protects the rights of the accused ... they also protect you from the very same abuses ... that is the point of these rights!<






Obama's heart has been deadened. His ears do not hear the voice of the Constitution and his eyes are blinded to the very foundations of this country--One Nation under God. What I see as Obama madness in promoting the Mirandizing of terrorists is merely "water under the bridge" for him. And a very great current of danger to all of us.

>And what Constitution is that? Why are you so against a person knowing what they are being arrested for and charged with? There are reasons we do not just let our own government spy in its citizens and take them away without having to explain why. If it was bad when the Soviets did this ... why would it now be okay for us to use the same methods on anyone else?<

Jim in CO
Yes, President Bush, VP Cheney AND GB PM Tony Blair, all admitted that no WMD were found in Iraq, but you like all disingenuous liberals continue to do, you left out the rest of the confession; "as their best intelligence led them to believe were there." This intelligence came from a number of reliable sources, including former high ranking Iraqi military officers that defected, the Deputy PM and of course, the fact that Saddam had gassed thousands of Kurds a few years earlier. Let's not even talk about the fact that Saddam sent planes, money and who knows what else, to other anti American countries, including his old enemy Iran!

Even the democrats in both the house and the senate, as well as Colin Powell, all felt that they had enough evidence from that intelligence to justify taking Saddam out. Then to turn around and solely blame Bush and Cheney for lying, knowing that people like you will suck it up, forgive them and turn on the republicans in the next election, is just as hypocritical and dishonest. But, to you liberats, that's OK if YOUR side lies, because you never think things through and you play the victims role the best.


One more thing, Jim
Let's not forget the last quagmire that the US was embroiled in, courtesy of JFK & excerbated by LBJ, because I never will. I would vote for Charles Manson before I would ever vote for a democrud again and not feel the least amount of guilt for it!

As it was in World War II and VietNam, we are dealing with fanatics that have been brainwashed to believe that their cause should be carried out by any means, even by cowardly and sneaky acts. They do not give their alleged enemies, regardless of who they are, any rights, therefore, they deserve none themselves!

As far as torture goes, if one of my loved ones were being held by any group and I caught someone from that group that had information that would save their life, I would do whatever I had to do to get that information out of them! I think that most people would do so, too!

You do gooders that never faced any kind of personal threat will never understand this! You can continue to look through your rose colored glasses and believe that your new messiah will lead you to prosperity, but by electing him, you have already fallen for the biggest con job that's ever been executed on the country! Consequently, you are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment!

Bruce

Both Clintons, John Kerry, and Al Gore (among others) said that Saddam had WMD.

Jim
"TR was a man of the times ... back then big business and robber barons really and truely did exist. Workers were nothing more than a tool to be discarded when no longer needed. After his Presidency ... big business crawled into bed with the GOP and it has been that way ever since."

Oh, please.

Let's look at some of Obama supporters and donors in the election...

Warren Buffett

George Soros

Bill Gates

Paul Allen

2:1 of Wall Street Bankers

Hollyweird

Green energy

Fat Al Gore, whose $2mn investment became $100mn and he is destined to become the first green billionaire, according to numerous business publications.

Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews, etc, and all rap stars.

I could go on, but why bother? You cannot get your head out of Obama's ar-se.

We Do Not Want To Win
A few years ago I remember seeing a picture of 100+ Taliban lined up at a funeral. The picture was taken by a drone.

Someone in Tampa (I believe) decided not to bomb the gathering because it would be offensive to do so during a funeral. It was at that moment I realized we did not have the heart to win the war on terrorism.

The USA has the best military and the most advanced weapons in the world. Yes, after 8 years we have not been able to clean out a bunch of medieval religious fanatics living in caves. WTF?

Jim Co
I am not as kind as St. Denis. I cannot debate you because you are so woefully misinformed.

I am weary of people like you who dredge up the same old lies and use them as talking points. That is not debate Jim.

You WOULD be a laughingstock at bases all around our nation, especially among our Special Forces with your ridiculous O.B. L. baloney.
We have been looking for him for over 8 yrs. now.

Get off your W.M.D. thing too. Bush lied, people died. Yeah right. What is certain is that Pelosi, Reid and Company lied, SOLDIERS DIED!

Lastly...,you say you get "The Weekly Standard" and "Newsmax". Step two in that process is that you actually read them.

Madness
"The Bridge on the River Kwai,"

Ah, 'tis one of my favorite films. I always quote the line:

"Yes, there's always the unexpected, isn't there?"
Jack Hawkins as Major Warden - The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957)

… because in fact that is how things are and always will be. The physicist Michio Kaku has said that one of the few things most assuredly impossible is precognition.

Another quote also comes to mind from another favorite movie.

“Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.”

- Clint Eastwood as Josey Wales (The Outlaw Josey Wales 1976)

And unfortunately whether we like it or not that is just the way it is.

Good Article
It never ceases to amaze me how few people get the distinctions of:

A nation of Laws vs A nation of Lawyers

The first, a relatively straight forward concept. We have a constitution, and we have laws derived from that document, English common law and Judea Christian law and ethics. As new laws are considered they are "litmus tested" against this legal background.

In the second case we have instantaneous law. That is, the "Law" becomes whatever that judge decides it is to cover the case been adjudicated. This, quite frankly, is insanity. It is also a slippery path we have been traveling since the Warren Court.

In any event, if one wants to see the "lawyer" mind in action rerun in your mind the recent Pirate incident that ended (finally) with the deaths of the pirates. The entire thing should have been over hours before it ended but Obama's "legal" mind became dominate. It is also why we are seeing this absurd "tour of apologies" going on instead of "hardball" diplomacy where North Korea, Palestinians and Iran are concerned. This is "jockeying for position" before the international "bar".

None of this is new. The Clinton administration was clearly one of "lawyers". Remember the deconstruction of IS.

If we had a grain of common sense we would bar lawyers from our legislative and administrative government branches. The only place for them would be as advisor's only. That still wouldn't entirely "blunt their swords" but we might be able to lower the pain of their existence among us.

PC is Thought Control
LEE




Then They've Got You
The lawyers in our government want to codify the entire range of human actions. They want to take judgement and reason out of the hands of a jury and instead rely on "the code."

Why? Because then, when they really want to get you for something - maybe it's your money or your reputation - then they've got you.

Bush - a Rough Rider at Heart
Saddam killed a hundred thousand Kurds with nerve gas. He harbored terrorists, he encouraged terrorism.

9-11 was the result of Clinton's weak response to such threats. I don't think any governments outside of Kim Jong Il's NK will make that mistake again.

With our occupation of Iraq, Israel now has a broad border from which to launch an attack on Iran when such becomes necessary. Iraq is no longer seeking WMD, nor are they supporting terrorism.

What Bush did and how he did it was probably very similar to what Teddy Roosevelt would have done given the state-run news media and the vile opportunism demonstrated by the Democrats in Congress.

Wish you had taken the blue pill?
LC
Location: MD
Reply # 4
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 9:50 PM EST Jim Co
I am not as kind as St. Denis. I cannot debate you because you are so woefully misinformed.

I am weary of people like you who dredge up the same old lies and use them as talking points. That is not debate Jim.

>What can I tell you LC, you chose the red pill and have caught on to the MSM/Soros/Acorn conspiracy that has allowed us to convince the rest of America to vote out the Republicans in 2006 and 2008.<



Choosing Sides

Today's Gallup Poll reported that:

40% of Americans consider themselves to be Conseratives.

35% of Americans consider themselves to be Moderates.

Only 21% of Americans consider themselves to be Liberals.

The most important issue for Americans is the economy/Obama spending.

Other polls report:

The Democrats only hold the edge in 1 of the top 6 issues to Americans and that is Social Security.

Healthcare is 7th.

Green energy does not make the top 10.

Republicans hold a 6-point lead in the Congressional generic ballot.

And this excuses Bush how?
Bruce
Location: MN
Reply # 11
Date: Jun 15, 2009 - 6:18 PM EST Jim in CO
Yes, President Bush, VP Cheney AND GB PM Tony Blair, all admitted that no WMD were found in Iraq, but you like all disingenuous liberals continue to do, you left out the rest of the confession; "as their best intelligence led them to believe were there." This intelligence came from a number of reliable sources, including former high ranking Iraqi military officers that defected, the Deputy PM and of course, the fact that Saddam had gassed thousands of Kurds a few years earlier. ...



>So how was it that so many Intel agencies could be wrong ... the Kay/Duelfer report makes it quite clear that Saddam had no WMD programs. Nor did he have any weapon stockpiles.

Still, in the end, there was only one person who could make the final decision to invade Iraq. So blame who else you want ... none of them had that power.<


On 30 September 2004, the ISG released the Duelfer Report, its final report on Iraq's purported WMD programs. Among its claims were:

-Saddam ended his nuclear program in 1991. ISG found no evidence of concerted efforts to restart the program, and Iraq’s ability to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program progressively decayed after 1991.

-Iraq destroyed its chemical weapons stockpile in 1991, and only a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions were discovered by the ISG.

-Saddam's regime abandoned its biological weapons program and its ambition to obtain advanced biological weapons in 1995. While it could have re-established an elementary BW program within weeks, ISG discovered no indications it was pursuing such a course.




Which means what?
Denis In Obama's Red America
Location: LA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 16, 2009 - 12:51 AM EST Choosing Sides

Today's Gallup Poll reported that:

40% of Americans consider themselves to be Conseratives.

35% of Americans consider themselves to be Moderates.

Only 21% of Americans consider themselves to be Liberals.

The most important issue for Americans is the economy/Obama spending.

Other polls report:

The Democrats only hold the edge in 1 of the top 6 issues to Americans and that is Social Security.

Healthcare is 7th.

Green energy does not make the top 10.

Republicans hold a 6-point lead in the Congressional generic ballot.




>And this translates into what Denise ... when was the last time you voted in a "generic election"?

Yes most people are conservative and yet they voted the "conservative party" out of office, does that tell you anything?<



Gallup Poll: Republican Shrinkage Widespread

A new Gallup analysis shows that the precipitous decline in the number of people who identify themselves as Republicans is widespread across nearly every demographic group -- a development that suggests that there is no simple solution to solving the party's current problems....


Put simply: Toss-up demographic groups eight years ago have moved en masse in Democrats' favor, leaving the GOP with only its base still on its side.

This Gallup analysis makes clear the significant brand damage the last eight years of the Bush Administration have inflicted on the party and seems to suggest that the problems are so widespread that no one candidate or even one election will solve them.

Heres what we do know.
Saddam went to great lenghts to convince the world he had WMD. His own Generals believed he had a stockpile of chemical weapons and we found bunkers for experimentation of Nuclear devices.

That's why Bill & Hillery Clinton, Tony Blair, Valamir Putin, U.N. the leaders of France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, U.A.E. all stated Saddam was a threat to world peace.

Many were afraid. Only Bush had the courage to do something about it.

Liberas were outraged.

That Iraq still did not have WMD?
Useful Idiots
Location: PA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 16, 2009 - 3:24 AM EST Heres what we do know.
Saddam went to great lenghts to convince the world he had WMD. His own Generals believed he had a stockpile of chemical weapons and we found bunkers for experimentation of Nuclear devices.

That's why Bill & Hillery Clinton, Tony Blair, Valamir Putin, U.N. the leaders of France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, U.A.E. all stated Saddam was a threat to world peace.

Many were afraid. Only Bush had the courage to do something about it.

Liberas were outraged.


>And of all these world leaders that felt that Saddam was a threat to world peace ... how many sent troops to help invade Iraq?

You seem to forget that Russia, France, Germany, NZ and Cananda argued that Iraq did not have WMD?<



The invasion of Iraq was strongly opposed by some traditional U.S. allies, including France, Germany, Chile, New Zealand, and Canada. Their leaders argued that there was no evidence of WMD and that invading Iraq was not justified in the context of UNMOVIC's February 12, 2003 report. On February 15, 2003, a month before the invasion, there were many worldwide protests against the Iraq war, including a rally of 3 million people in Rome, which is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the largest ever anti-war rally. According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war.

Jim
You are a MORON!

You had better learn your government process before you try to act like you know anything.

President Bush did not have the power to send our troops to Iraq WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, which was my point. Obviously, you were too ignorant to catch it!

Keep drinking the osama ade you liberat weasel!

Jim Co.
Sigh...,you just keep on proving my point Jim. Red pill, blue pill, how about a purple pill?

Try to follow Jimbo. Red and blue when combined make purple.This is not about Dems.(blue), Repubs.(red). It's about COUNTRY(purple).

Now....,loosen the bindings on your Barry Bonnet,try to exercise some hiher thinking skills.

Get it?
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