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Monday, March 09, 2009
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Save the Electoral College
by Paul Greenberg
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For about as long as some of us can remember, there have been proposals around to junk the Electoral College and find some other way to elect a president of the United States. Whether a new system should be devised was a national debate question when I was in high school, and that was a long, long time ago. Yet for all the dissatisfaction with the Electoral College over the years, no one has been able to sell the American people on an alternative.

The alternatives do change from time to time, and their very prolixity is another sign that devising a better system isn't easy.

How about a straight popular vote, winner takes all, no matter how slim his margin of victory? But that change could attract so crowded a field of presidential candidates that it might take only a small percentage of the votes cast to win. Would we really want a president elected with, say, only 20 percent of the vote?

OK, how about a Plan B? Why not have a run-off if the leading candidate got less than, say, 40 percent of the popular vote? (Which might have eliminated Abraham Lincoln in a run-off, since by the best guesstimates he got only 39 percent of the popular vote in 1860 yet a majority of the Electoral College.) The French have such a system -- and risk having their presidential run-off feature the two most extreme candidates, the many moderate candidates having split the moderate vote.

Then there was the proposal to elect the president by congressional district, but that approach wouldn't guarantee that the winner would have more of the popular vote nationwide, either.

This year's alternative to the Electoral College is to get states with a majority of the electoral votes to agree beforehand to cast them for whichever candidate polls the most votes nationally. Even if that candidate didn't carry all those states.

It would be hard to imagine a scheme that did more to destroy the integrity of the ballot. For it would give the winner of the popular vote nationally the electoral votes of states he didn't carry, overturning the will of the majority in those states. This plan isn't so much a reform as a legalized conspiracy to get around the Electoral College.

But here's what may be the most troubling question raised by this end run: What would happen to the two-party system? Right now, each party must achieve consensus within itself in order to nominate a candidate who can appeal to the broad middle of public opinion, and so gain a majority of the Electoral College.

But if a presidential candidate needed only a plurality of the popular vote, the candidates on the fringes would be encouraged. Because they'd no longer need the backing of a national party and a majority of the Electoral College to win -- just more popular votes than the rival with the next highest number of votes.

Does anyone envy the way the French elect their president? Look what happened in that country's national election back in 2002: Between them, the three leading candidates barely managed to poll half the vote. What happened to the other half? It was divided among the remaining 13 -- count 'em, thirteen -- presidential candidates.

Result: The second round of voting pitted a less-than-popular conservative against a right-wing radical. It was as if a presidential election in this country had been determined by the Ralph Naders and Pat Buchanans. The principle of One Person, One Vote was upheld, all right, and it produced one big mess.

Inspector Clouseau could doubtless deliver a perfectly logical Gallic defense of such a system: Une personne, une voix! But to English speakers, at least the kind who know their Burke and, yes, their Tocqueville, the word for electing a president this way is wacky. Also, dangerous.

And if just the popular vote counted, every close presidential election could prove as messy as the one in 2000, only with the vote totals in every state as hotly contested as those in Florida were that confused year.

Edmund Burke tried to warn us: "The Constitution of a State is not a problem of arithmetic." Rather, it is a way to take into account the many dimensions of an electorate and forge a consensus that is greater than all its parts.

That's where the Electoral College comes in. It may be an antique piece of clockwork, but it usually performs its valuable function smoothly. So smoothly that lots of folks have no idea how it really works, which is a shame because the Electoral College needs every defender it can muster.

And yet the country is in danger of approving a sneaky way around the Electoral College that could have all kinds of unintended, and unpleasant, consequences. What we have here is an abstract idea untested by our actual, historical experience as Americans. Or as Mark Twain once said of another terrible idea: "It is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American. It is ... French!"

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Nebraska-Maine may be the way to go
The system used in Nebraska and Maine could be the best of all the alternatives. The two electoral votes that are representative of the Senate seats go to the candidate who had the majority of the votes in the state, and the electoral votes that represent the house seats go to the victor in each district. This would encourage candidates to campaign in regions of a state that they could possibly win in, while still requiring candidates to appeal to a broad spectrum of voters across the country.

Opfor311 - On votes by district
--
The notion of having "the electoral votes that represent the house seats go to the victor in each district" is certainly more discrete than bagging up all of a state's votes in the College and handing them over en masse to whichever candidate got a majority within said state.

As you can see, I live in New Jersey. Much of *South* Jersey is conservative, and will send a few Republican congresscritters to Washington City every two years.

North Jersey, on the other hand....

Well, its a bunch of friggin' Mets fans. What d'you expect?

I have gone utterly without representation in every presidential election throughout my adult life. No matter how I choose to vote, New Jersey goes cancerously en bloc to whatever raping, thieving, slack-anus'd, unconstitutional National Socialist sonofabitch who hangs a (D) after his name on the ballot.

They pretend that I get a vote, and then expect me to pretend that I'm living under a legitimate government.

The pretense has gone beyond "thin."




=====
"Stealing - forcing a transfer of property against the will of the owner - is wrong. Naturally, this definition perfectly applies to the practice of taxation, which is the initiation of violence against largely-disarmed citizens in order to take their money against their will. I certainly understand the democratic theory that, since people get to vote, the government does not take the money against their will, but the justification is nonsense. The fact that a slave gets to choose his master does not mean that he is not a slave. The fact that voters play a statistically-insignificant part in choosing who gets to rob them does not mean that they are not being robbed."

-- Stefan Molyneux

If Obama fails this time...


... then the lack of the Electoral College will mean a continuous supply of presidents from one of three far left-wing population centers:

1.)Boston/NYC/Phila./Baltimore/DC metroplex
2.)Chicago-Detroit metroplex
3.)San Diego/LA/SanFran/Seattle metroplex.

The voice of fly-over country? Forget it! The voice of the South from Texas to The Carolinas ? Who needs those red-neck Bible thumpers anyway .. They're too stupid to vote they correct way!

Again, The Founders had good reasons to put things in the Constitution.

Remember, for your consideration: .. The Second Protects the Rest.

So Shortsighted....
There ARE other alternatives to voting which this article does not address, one of the most important being allowing people to cast votes for their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices...The purpose of voting is to do the will of the people, and the success of a system can only be measured against its ability to express that will. Electoral college is NOT the will of the people as the people are not making the choice. And for that matter, the article says that "nothing better" has been devised, but the real truth is nothing better has been honestly proposed or evaluated--there was never going to be a change in the system of good ol' boys.

"Prolixity"
Yes, Mr. Greenberg, I see what you mean.

And yes, let's leave it alone -- the Electoral College.

Ralph Nader defeated...
...Al Gore in Florida in 2000.That is he attracted enough liberal votes in Florida that otherwise would have gone to Gore.

Gore lost Florida by 500 votes and Nader had 20,000.Most of Naders' votes would have gone to Gore if Nader had not run.

We should build a monument to Ralph in Miami Beach.

Curious
You didn't mention that Perot gave us Clinton without electoral votes.

Agree with Greenberg
Keep the Electoral College.

All these socalled "solutions" to the Electoral College would have us resembling the electoral histories of Europe or Israel, which is NOT where we want to go.

Endless intrigues and temporary alliances among various factions, constantly changing, resulting in more instability.

Keep the electoral college.

We already have enough socalled democracy.

The 17th Amendment "democratized" the process of selecting Senators to the national body, repudiating the Framer's concept of each state legislature selecting those persons it thought would best represent the interests of the state.

Probably ought to repeal that Amendment.

Not to worry.
It's not going to happen. I did a detailed analysis of this several years ago.

The electoral system can't be changed because the less populous states, of which there are many more than are needed to block, would never vote to pass the constitutional amendment - whatever form it might take. They have too much to lose by eliminating the electoral system.

What if.....
You're right, Retchemprof, the less populous states would never allow the abolishment of the Electoral College.

The less populous states wouldn't go for this either but it would be a lot fairer if each state got the number of Electoral votes as that state's representation in the House of Representatives only. When the Senators are added in the smallest states representation in the Electoral College is increased by a factor of three. Is that democracy? Certainly, rural areas should not have their voices drowned out by the highly populated cities and suburbs, but they already are over-represented in the Senate where the big states (New York, California, etc.) have representation equal to that of the smallest states (North Dakota, Vermont, etc.)

Check and Balance

Without the college, New York, California, and Texas could decide the president for us all. Is it just for the large states and cities to rule us all? Is a tyranny of the majority what we want?

Why would a candidate even spend his campaign cash to run in Wyoming?

This reasoning is why we have a congress and a senate. This arrangement balances popular say with state say.(or did until the state destroying 17th amendment) What we now have is two congresses, but at least the states have equal say in the upper congress.

The college is a good idea as far as liberty for all is concerned.

I can understand why big states hate it though. It helps keep them from enslaving the rest of us.

Critics say
Critics of the electoral college say that it forces candidates to only spend money, time and assets in swing states. While this might be true, the alternative is to see the candidates only campaign in the larger metropolitan areas. There would be little need for a candidate to ever make it outside of the the major cities on the east and west coast. I, too, like the Nebraska-Maine way of doing things. It opens things up in places like California, and also think the 17th amendment needs to be repealed.

You left out
that Hitler and his pals got in with 36% of a popular vote. Democracy is rule by plurality, not by majority. The biggest mob wins.

Democracies invariably degenerate into some form of socialism: Fascism, National Socialism or Communism. In any such system, one is either a master or a slave. Neither is or can be free. This is why we refer to His Most Pietistic and Reverential Sanctitude as "Massah," "Messiah" being an ignorant misspelling by a people who have forgotten their own language along with the foundations of what used to be their nation.


How about the split state vote method
How about the electoral college split vote method that a couple states use where the elctoral votes are assigned per the states popular vote. For example, in my state of NY, Obama would have gotten 65% and Mccain would have gotten 35% of the college. At least I and my fellow upstaters would have felt somewhat represented.

An Observation
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The electoral college has worked well over the years. These folks that think they know better scare me. Me thinks that they are up to something other than their stated purpose. I don't trust them. Leave the Constitution alone where it is working. And it is working. It may not be like the French, but it is American. To Hades with the French. If there are people who want to emulate the French, let them move to France.

Hey Saltydog
What exactly do you mean by "Liberty"? Is it necessarily in conflict with democracy?

I feel America has allowed me much freedom and liberty (Do these two concepts mean the same thing?). I live in a home that's safe and warm and in a neighborhood of my (and my husband's) choosing. I got to pursue higher education and enter the career field I chose. In essence, I am living the "American Dream"--and it's my American Dream.

As a Pediatrician, I have the opportunity to meet children from many backgrounds. It is my goal that all of them have the opportunities that I had to pursue their own dreams.

I also live in a free society where I can write posts on sites like this one even though my views often differ from many of the other Townhall posters. Let's hear it for freedom and democracy--can we really have one without the other?

Robert

To truly emulate the French you'd have to refrain from regular bathing as well.

federalism
The electoral college, as it currently functions, is one of the last examples of true federalism. We really don't have a national election for president, we have 50 state elections. This is a GOOD thing. It is true federalism.

One of the main purposes of federalism is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Without the electoral college, places like Wyoming, as mentioned above, cease to matter. Keep the electoral college. Keep at least a little federalism in the system.

Electoral College
The one and only problem I still have with the electoral college may be a complete misunderstanding on my part. Is it true that an elector DOES NOT have to vote for the candidate that his/her district voted for? Everthing thing I've read about the EC implies that this is true, but every source I've ever seen this confirmed at is also quick to point out that it has never made a difference in a presidential election yet.

My questions, then, are, 1) is this really true? and 2) if so, WHY?!

Someone please clarify this for me...

Sure, Why Not...
Sure why not rewrite the constitution.
Every other piece of history is being rewritten.

The constitution is old anyway, we waahahaant change.

Ironically, the theme song of mob rule does not frighten anyone enough to follow the original intent of the electoral college.

A growing number of Americans vote for a rock star, not a qualified leader. So that is what we get.

Ellen - freedom and democracy ..

History documents multiple places where there was democracy without freedom. Notably, Socrates was killed because his opinions were offensive to many Athenians.

The Founders were dismissive of democracy for a reason. They viewed democracy as mob rule, where the group with the biggest numbers and the more effective clubs dictated to everyone: 'the tyranny of the majority'.

The Founders designed a governmental system that consciously divided governmental power: federalism. The Constitution provided clear limits of authority to protect individual rights from both the majority and governmental over-reach.

For the moment, we have a constitutional republic, as specified in the Constitution.

Should this nation actually become a democracy, it will be a dark day.

v/r,

-- Bud

Doug
There are indeed areas of the Constitution that should be changed. Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 for example.

While I'd like to see the entire system replaced with a parliamentary system using the single non-transferable vote system which would actually give people who don't support the US one-party system (there is only one party in power in the US--the establishment party which is made up of two wings--the GOP and the Democrat Party)a voice in the government, but as long as the US is going to use its present system it needs to keep the EC. Can you imagine the chaos 2000 would have brought if the US directly elected the president? Lawsuits in not one state but 50--lawsuits in thousands of precincts as the losing candidate tried to skim off enough votes to win--every close election would be a repeat of this.

It would also give power to just a few states and just a few large cities in these large states. In a close election, a small state can be kingmaker. McCain and Obama went to Nevada a number of times (population 2.6 million)as McCain needed Nevada to have any hope of winning. Obama even traveled to Elko (population less than 20,000). If there was no EC, think Obama would have wasted time on Nevada or Elko?

Dying Republic
In the observation of many, we broke from the constitution in signifigant ways with the "new deal" and with the elevation of FDR to an unprecedented third term.

The recent financial breakdown and election results, show the progression of that exodus from enumerated powers, and indicate the effects of mob rule over the electoral process.

People have figured out that they can vote themselves free stuff from the treasury, and politicians have figured out that they can make a career out of public treasury distribution.

We are witness to the death of a rebublic.

Bud
Federalism meaning the powers shared between the Federal government and the States has been nothing but in name only for a long long time. The US is basically a unitary state with the states being just for the convenience of the central government. US States today have more in common with a US county, a Chinese province or a Japanese prefecture than a sovereign political entity.

The central government tells (or has told) the states what gas it can use, how fast it's citizens can drive on their own roads, what the drinking age must be, if or not it will allow its citizens to use marijuana and on and on.

Federalism has been dead in the US for a long time. I put the day it died as April 9, 1865, but no doubt it was dying long before even that date.

Electoral College
I understand now why Ron Paul urges repeal of the 17th Amendment. Neither he nor any other third party candidate has any chance at all under the current system, thus silencing any view not held by the candidates put forward by the major parties. I would be all for such a repeal.

Short of that, I think the number of electors should be limited to the number of US Representatives of each state, not Representatives plus Senators, which skews the results unfairly. Also, that the votes of the electors should be split according to the popular vote, not winner take all.

Hoofbeat
Marietta, GA

The electoral college
allows states with small populations a say in the process. If the presidency was determined by popular vote, or some variation thereof, those of us in more sparsely populated regions would have no say. Splitting the electoral vote in each state is essentially the same as using the popular vote. In such a system the candidates would devote their time to piling up large majorities on both coasts and ignoring the middle of the country. If the contest was decided by popular vote we would have had President Gore instead of President Bush!

A state-by-state runoff might not be such a bad idea, though. It might have eliminated Lincoln, but it might also have eliminated William 'the Impeached' Clinton. Remember, Clinton never got more than 44% of the popular vote.

Discipline of Thought..
I have met very few people who have the intellectual capacity to think through the implications of constitutional ammendment.

In fact "judgement" and "discernment" have degenerated into an approximation of whatever seems cool at the moment.

It is a sign of hubris and ignorance to be so deluded as to be incapable of recognizing ones own limitations.

To much watching of Oprah, and too few hours spent learning about the context in which this US constitution was forged, produces a disproportionate exaltation of ones own right to an opinion.

There are many who would be best served to realize that a mouth does not grant one a right to an opinion.

SJ Doc
"I have gone utterly without representation in every presidential election throughout my adult life. No matter how I choose to vote..."

Which is why a parliamentary system would have a greater chance at representing you or at least having a MP that represents your views. How much representation do Libertarians, or Greens, or Natural Law or Communists or anyone not with a D or R next to their name have? The answer is zero. Ross Perot in 1992 gained 19% of the vote but with zero representation and no say in how the government was formed or ran.

Nevada is a prime example. Obama won only two of Nevada's 17 counties, but won 100% of Nevada's EC votes. Even if you used Maine's sytem Obama would still have won at least four of the five and possible all five (the 2nd district was close--49%--49% for McCain since McCain did well in the rural northern counties but lost heavily in Washoe--McCain won the 2nd by 2,778 votes)while still only winning two of the 17 counties.



Turo
" If the contest was decided by popular vote we would have had President Gore instead of President Bush!"

And Gore would hardly have been worse than Bush if he had tried. I guess Gore would have exploded the Federal debt and budget with run away spending...oh I forget, Bush did that anyway.


Is class warfare imperative?
If our U.S. democracy is to fall to the siren songs of Marx, it must begin with the destruction of the founding father's concern for minority rights! Yes, to avoid regional control by larger population densities, the founders invented the Electoral College and the notion that each state would have two at large Senators to serve six year terms to insulate them against short-term pressures for frequent elections as common to all House of Representatives from many more districts than there are states.

To get to true socialism, where the state just manages all or to communism where it also owns all, we need to eliminate the old Constitution and recognize that we don't need a new one. We will not need a Supreme Court either to interfere in the proclaimed truths of our key leader- the President! Come to think of it, we will not need to waste money on a Congress either, unless it is a cosmetic requirement.

We can keep Oprah because of her vast knowledge and intellect, but we can ban talk radio,TV, and web folks who disagree with the supreme leader.

What else needs to be changed?

Kitty
"Short of that, I think the number of electors should be limited to the number of US Representatives of each state, not Representatives plus Senators, which skews the results unfairly. Also, that the votes of the electors should be split according to the popular vote, not winner take all."

If you split the vote based on the popular vote you have basically a de facto direct election of the president. The reason that the US senators were included was to give the small states some degree of power in electing the president. The first idea--the Virginia Plan was to elect the president from the legislature which would give the large states--like Virginia an advantage as under this plan the large states would have more representatives (the body would have been unicameral). The compromise between the small states and large states is why the Senators are included. Your plan would be to go back to the Virginia Plan--great for a state like Californa and Florida, okay for a state like Georgia, but terrible for a state like Montana or Alaska.

More Than One Party Bad?
While I agree that the Electoral College needs to remain, the argument behind it is weak at best. You assume that a nation only needs two parties. However, as we have been shown over the past 100 years, two parties that are only different in name doesn't exactly do anyone a world of good.

The reason there's even a debate here is because the role of the Presidency has expanded and mutated into a grotesque monster. The way our Founders set up the nation was for each of the member states to be the key locations of power with the Federal level a weak entity to handle national sovreignty and international relations roles. The President is supposed to be a mostly figurehead role with minimal powers outside defensive actions against agressing states. The key diplomat and commander in chief, not the national governor.

Governors govern, the President merely presides over the Federal arm. The root words tell it all. Presidents are not leaders, just the CEO of basic federal funtions. It has gone well beyond what it should be and this is all beause of our two-party system.

Keepontryon
It was the Framers first off. Many of the Founders saw the Constitution as an anti-revolutionary coup.

And not all Framers shared that fear in regards to protecting the small states. The large states wanted a unicameral legislature based on population while the small states (of course) wanted one where each state got a single vote making say a state like New Jersey equal to a state like Virginia and of course Virginia wasn't too happy with this idea and thus the great compromise between the small and large states and the bicameral legislature--one house based on population and the other based on a set number for each state and a greater degree of power to the states with small populations than they otherwise would have had. Ironically, the large state pushing the large state plan Virginia is now smaller in population than the small state that was pushing the small state plan, New Jersey.

What about fraud?
There's also another thing to consider regarding why we shouldn't abolish the Electoral College.

Suppose the EC has been abolished and the presidency is decided by a pure popular vote - and you're looking at a presidential election that is forecasted to be quite close.

Given the control Democratic Party machines have of most of our major big cities, it seems to me that a pure popular-vote system would provide massive inducements to ballot stuffing - and we know WHICH of the two parties would be most gleefully engaging in THAT, don't we? And with the rewards that a Democratic president could bestow upon their party's machine politicians who deliver them the White House by outright fraud, that's all the more inducement for them to engage in the practice.

Abolish the Electoral College, and the ACORNs of this world will be deciding our presidential elections for the foreseeable future. Which, of course, will all be handed on a silver platter to Democrats.

Although, as retchemprof said earlier, it's extrememly unlikely to happen given that it will take 38 states to pass an amendment to change the presidential election system we have now, and NO WAY are the less-populated states going to go for it and therefore render themselves totally irrelevant in all future presidential elections. Unless the Democrats do an end run around the Constitution's amendement process and try to make the change by a simple law.

Justin
As I said, it is the Framers, but the reason for a two-party system is the structure of the system. In a winner take all system it is hard to get other viable factions. Which is why I'd like to see the president reduced to nothing but basically a honorary role as head of state like you see in say Austria and the rest replaced with a parliamentary system using the single non-transferable vote system with a PM as head of the government. This would give rise to other parties who represent other views besides just the view of the establishment party.

The framers intended for the president to simply be nothing but the executor of the law enacted by Congress and the real power was to be held by the legislature (and a parliamentary system would return the power back to where the Framers intended it to lie)--but from Washington onward it has never worked out that way--each president has stolen more and more power from the Congress and now the president is almost emperor-like. What did Bush do when the Senate killed the autobail out? He simply gave the money to them anyway using TARP and the list of abuses by presidents is almost endless again from Washington forward. You might want to note Washington's grabbing of power was before there were even parties, let along a two-party system.


Had the Electoral College worked...
...as advertised we would not have the demagogic Obama in the White House.

The Electoral College is essential as a fail-safe. The fact that it is not working properly has more to do with poor maintenance than it does with inherent design flaws.

Scott
The electors can vote for anyone they feel like--the so-called faithless electors and they (except for Maine and Nebraska) are pledged due to the outcome of the entire state--winner takes all not to any electoral district. So a Democrat elector from the say Nevada's 2nd which was won by McCain would still vote for Obama as Obama won the state and this elector would not be considered faithless. If that Democratic elector had voted for McCain instead even if his district did go for McCain (by a les than 3000 votes), he would be considered faithless.

The slates of the electors are always high level officials from the party. In 2004 for example, voted for John Edwards as president instead of Kerry. In 1872, Greeley the candidate died after the election but before the electors of the EC had met to cast their ballots and they refused to vote for Greeley--as he was now dead. And there are plenty of other examples. But since the slates of electors are high level party officials--governors, former governors, former members of Congress, state officials and the like the chance is pretty small they will defect.

Truth
"...as advertised we would not have the demagogic Obama in the White House."

How so? He won 28 states and DC and one of Nebraska's house districts and thus one elector there for a total of 365 electoral votes. Electors have always been appointed by the states and since 1824 appointed based on the popular vote (except in a few rare instances--e.g. Colorado in 1876). So how would the EC have prevented Obama's election?

electoral college
Under the constitution,this country in just a few hundred years has become the greatestmost powerful free nation in the world.All other systems of govt.have failed to do this.So why the hell do people want to change it.It is because it limits their chances of completely taking over this country.This is precisely what the dems and Obama are trying to do right now.First they will silence their critics.You may fill in the rest.

Electorial College
Some of these proposals are better than those in the column. They certainly show that an unbiased group could propose good alternatives.
As to runoffs, several states have these in their elections and, I believe, are better than no runoff. What I believe is the biggest need is for something to be devised such that a third party has a chance. Such a situation would force the two pathetic parties we have to straighten up. It would not take many third party senators to shake up the Senate.

A Proud Reagan Conservative
The Founders didn't put anything in the Constitution and a good many saw the document and those behind it as part of an anti-revolutionary coup.

The Framers did have good reasons to put things in and for some of these, these conditions are no longer extant--Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 comes to mind--something Senator Harch has tried to rectify.

As for this: "Remember, for your consideration: .. The Second Protects the Rest."

Total BS. Unless you think the second allows you to buy advanced fighters, tanks, heavy guns, nuclear weapons and the like. A bunch of rednecks with deer rifles is no match for the US military. Even the reasonably well-armed CSA and IJA/IJN weren't able to match it. You could try a Maoist-like insuregency--they have proved successful against better armed foes--Vietnam, China, Nepal, Indonesia and the like, but you going to get people to live out in the bush for 20 years and blowing up trains and shooting Congressman and the like? I rather doubt it.

You may also note, Obama won NC and Virginia, Nebraska's 2nd, Iowa, New Mexico and Nevada--so he did okay in "fly over country" too.


Off Subject?
I love Greenberg, but is this the most important subject right now? We are on the cusp of losing this country to Big Government, and whichever side of the political fence you are on, you have to question the unbridled and overwhelming government spending done in the last six months and proposed for the next three years, and wonder if it is unsustainable. I believe it is, and when governments go bankrupt, as is happening all over Eastern Europe now, the next step is anarchy. The historical response to anarchical attempts is not pretty, either. Will the US survive the next 10 years? Even with a strengthening dollar (the result of no competition) and the Chinese buying most of our debt, the most we can hope for is an uneasy alliance with China (like dancing with the devil) to sustain us, while a wildly juvenile Congress attempts to pass every piece of bad legislation they have dreamed about over the last 8 years. If all this has its expected impact, productivity will drop, jobs will continue to disappear, and people will go to the streets demanding that the President deliver what he promised. How will he react? What suspensions of constitutional law will he feel he must impose for our "safety"?
In short, we can worry about stupid proposals to change the electoral college after we have dealt with the stupid proposals to change our social structure and impede our liberties, IF there is a country left to worry about.

Jax
"Under the constitution,this country in just a few hundred years has become the greatestmost powerful free nation in the world.All other systems of govt.have failed to do this."

Most powerful? True for now, but so was the British Empire and for longer than the US has rested on its imperial perch. The US tenure wouldn't even be considered an overly long lasting Chinese dynasty. Free? Depends on how you define the terms--economically both Hong Kong and Singapore are freer.

The reason people want to change it is because it has turned into a corrupt, single-party state with each wing of the party fighting to increase their own power at the expense of the other wing and you. Allowing other voices to be heard in how the country would be governed would not be such a bad thing, but the fix is in and other voices--that being "Third" parties--are shut out of the process even when there is enough anger out there to propel them to a large degree of success--e.g. Perot in 1992. But even at 19% of the vote, his followers got no say so in how the government would be run in 1993 and onward. A reform of the system would change that. Is the current system working for you? I suppose if you are a lobbyist it is.

Greenberg
"Would we really want a president elected with, say, only 20 percent of the vote?"

Why not? Lincoln (which you and many think is almost a god-like figure)only got 39.8% of the vote. Without a EC would ballot access be any easier? No. Would that eliminate the party nomination process? No. Would a non-GOP and non-Democratic party candidate usually get more than say 3-4% of the vote (if that)? No. What as John Major's party (The Tories) percentage in 1992? More than 20% correct?

"The French have such a system -- and risk having their presidential run-off feature the two most extreme candidates, the many moderate candidates having split the moderate vote."

Which is a usual feature of US elections too. Moderates in both parties rarely win the nomination of their party as it is usually only the zealots who come out and participate in the primaries and caucuses.

"Right now, each party must achieve consensus within itself in order to nominate a candidate who can appeal to the broad middle of public opinion, and so gain a majority of the Electoral College."

That is total BS. The Democrats for years elected people far to the left of the mainstream--and they were nominated by the far-left loons of the party just as Goldwater was in the GOP--neither he or they appealed to the broad middle, but the far extremes.

"Because they'd no longer need the backing of a national party and a majority of the Electoral College to win --"

How so? Did PB ever win the GOP nomination? Did Nader on the otherside?

And if Stephen A. Douglas had won in a tie-breaker with Lincoln, that would have been great. Thousands would have not died and an entire region would not have been burned literally to the ground.


Akagi
I also think the Congress has grabbed way too much power (not exactly something the EC has anything to do with). Back when America was first going, being in Congress was not something a person could do and pay the bills. They were paid on per-diem and barely spent any time doing anything. For the most part, Congressman (Reps and Senators) both had to be productive individuals in their private lives.

We should go back to this as well. Power in this nation should grow inversely proportionate with the distance from the individual. The most powerful and influential government in your life should be the local town council. The least powerful and least influential should be Congress and the President. If the local school board doesn't have a bigger impact on your taxes, your regulatory environment, your life in general, then the President and Congress have to much power.

Congress works too much. I figure they only need two weeks a year, most of which dismantling Federal agencies and regulations, then three days after that to pass a budget for the Departments of Justice, State, Defense and Treasury. Give them $1,000 for their troubles and expect them to work a real job the rest of the year. That's how it should be done.

Keep the Electoral College...
Thanks for those wonderful insights into the Electoral college & the alternatives. I've just finished reading a book about the summer of 1787 when some of the best minds of the country put together the Constitution, and how it came about. The presidential, legislative and judicial were all to be equal - with checks and balances being applied. This is a marvelous document! As to the Electoral college, I had always felt a popular vote would be better, until I understood from this article what that would mean. I hadn't thought of the implications of a crowded field where the President elected could theoretically have only 20% of the vote of the people. I firmly believe that what we have in place, perhaps not perfect, is the best that there is. Let's keep it.

National Popular Vote
Yes, Walter-this probably IS one of the most important subjects right now-because it's happening now as we're all diverted by other things! The National Popular Vote movement does exactly what the Electoral College was designed to prevent: disenfranchises both small states and large rural states by 1. assigning all state electoral votes to one candidate and 2. reassigning those electoral votes to the candidate who wins the most massed electoral votes in states who have agreed to cooperate within the coalition.
One of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen is that it 'prevents the anxiety of close votes and the resulting upset among the voters'. . .a perfect liberal reason to destroy our system of representative republic!
If you go to the website, http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/ you can see where this stands. If the voters in the rural areas of Michigan are outvoted by the ballot-box stuffers in Wayne county and Ann Arbor, and the rural voters in Illinois are quashed by Chicago, we already lose our votes because of throwing the entire state to the 'popular vote' winner. With this system, assuming one of those states actually was won by the rural majority and got that state's electoral votes, those votes would be CHANGED to votes for the majority candidate winner in other states in the coalition. Never again will a winning candidate feel he must represent ALL of the people-because he now effectively 'won' All VOTES in a block of states. This is now law in IL, NJ & MD, with CA, RI, MA & VT awaiting the governor's signature. Do you notice any traditionally conservative states on this list?
This is an end-run around the need to fight out the Electoral College battle and try for a Constitutional Amendment by simply creating a coalition of Democratic voting states to overwhelm any third-party candidate and most of a second party's influence.

Electoral College works as intended
In Obama's era of change, anything old is suspect. The Electoral College is well-established and works as intended, making sure that the high population centers on our coasts don't totally determine the outcome of elections. Also, the states looking at revisions aren't trying to get around the Electoral College - they are trying to get around the Constitution. To get rid of the Electoral College would require a Constitutional amendment, which would be difficult. Changing the Constitution with legislation or by court decision is nothing new to liberals.

Signs I want to see:
Driving south into NYC from upstate or north from South Jersey into North Joizey (Soprano country) the signs should read:

"Now leaving the real world."

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

The College is:
THE ONLY BUFFER AGAINST MOB RULE!!! Although it didn't help much against THAT mindless rabble in November did it?

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Hey Turophile
" If the contest was decided by popular vote we would have had President Gore instead of President Bush!"

You say that like that would have been a bad thing! Maybe President Gore would have kept us out of the Iraq war which cost us literally trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.

Modernized Electoral College
Mr Greenberg;
I have designed an improved Electoral College as if created by our founding fathers.
1. Elimination of state wide winner take all rule.
2. Nominations made at the convention.
3. EC must make a selection
4. After each round failing to produce a majority choice, lowest vote candidates are eliminated.
5. Each district sends a majority and minority elector with a 100 vote total for each district.

If you wish complete details, many additional points to make, send me an email -jdwdjw@yahoo.com- and I will respond.
Robert Wahl

Electoral College "Fraud"?
The problem with the 'College' is that those selected to "vote as the PEOPLE wish" don't necessarily do so.

Many "votes" can be "purchased" by the powers that be.
I have NO faith in the Electoral College delegates.
I still think that "One 'man', one vote" is the more honest way to go. At least the voice of the PEOPLE would be sure to be heard. (And there would be less chance of fraud/corruption. It would have to be spread out too far)

Akagi - On suppressant effects
--
Speaking in support of a parliamentary system (which has its own problems, I must observe) to permit political "fringe" factions like us libertarians to secure a voice in a national legislature denied to us by the prevailing Boot-On-Your-Neck Party's fiction of "bipartisan opposition," Akagi mentions Nevada's November balloting, where our Immigrant-in-Chief:

"...won only two of Nevada's 17 counties, but won 100% of Nevada's EC votes."


I ask you, Akagi and others, to consider that the Electoral College is responsible - OVERWHELMINGLY - for the trend of diminishment in eligible voter participation in U.S. presidential elections.

Think about Nevada and New Jersey as disparate but valid examples.

I live in New Jersey, where it is understood that the National Socialist Party's candidate - no matter how manifestly unqualified, "evil, stupid, and insane" - gets all of the Garden State's 15 electoral votes.

I vote anyway. If you don't yell "Rape!," you fail to make it clear that you do NOT want these sonsofbitches gang-porking you.

But thousands upon thousands of citizens here in New Jersey who clearly abhor the notion of something like the Mulatto Messiah masquerading as America's legitimate chief of state didn't bother to go to the polls.

They knew that their choices meant nothing in the face of all those friggin' Mets fans up in *Sopranos* country.

Same thing in Nevada last November.


"That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen" (Bastiat) in this area is the number of voters who do NOT vote because of the effects of the Electoral College.

Changing to a parliamentary system is extremely radical surgery.

Electoral College voting by district - like dilating a narrowed coronary artery with a catheter inserted through a peripheral vessel - is a much less traumatic intervention.


And might be similarly life-saving.

--

Akagi and others
Regarding Art. II, Section I, clause 5, it reads:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Paraphrased, this says that a candidate for President must be:

- A natural-born citizen of the US
- 35 years old or older
- 14 years residing in the US or more

Pretty simple. I assume you guys are bothered by the "or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" part above.

This was placed in the document for the simple reason that many of the Founders, and other leading citizens, were not natural-born citizens. It gave these people an exemption from the rule.

I don't get why this bothers anyone. It doesn't apply to ANYONE today and can't. You'd have to be over 200 years old to qualify for the exemption.

Legislative powers
Congress has long abdicated its constitutional responsibilities.

The Executive and the Judiciary have each encroached upon the powers of the Legislature.

In writing the Constitution, the fact our Founders began by enumerating the powers of the Legislature, NOT Executive and NOT Judicial is an indication of their predisposition to view the Legislature as "first among equals".

Indeed, as ordained in the Constitution, the Legislature originally expressed the will of the populace at large...U.S. House(given who was entitled to vote at the time), AND the will of the various States..U.S. Senate...until the 17th Amendment undermined the intent of the framers).

Some here who assert the Framers were fearful of the complete expression of majority rule...so called "democracy"...are correct.

Framers were only too aware of
the mobocracy exemplified in the French Revolution.

Framers were also much opposed to the concentration of power in the Executive, given the abuse they suffered under the English Crown.

Today's faux righties, in their lapdog advocacy of the powers of the Executive(under Bush 43) would be viewed with alarm and trepidation by our Framers(and if a Democrat acted in the same manner, I would think the same).

Read Alexander Hamilton's Federalist Paper #8(where he expounds on how Executive power exercised by a Commander in Chief, in calling for a state of perpetual war, WILL destroy a nation's civil and constitutional rights.

SJ
But Obama still would have won 4 of the 5 of Nevada's (and if Obama had sued perhaps could have found a way to drag up 3000 more votes in Washoe and Carson City) to win the 2nd and thus 5th Nevada vote.

In Georgia, McCain won all 13, but no doubt he would have lost the 4th, 5th and 13th for sure and perhaps more--the 2nd, 8th and 12th. Sure McCain would have picked up seats in California and Florida, etc--e.g. Florida's 4th or California's 46th. I just doubt it would change any outcomes (maybe Bush-Gore 2000)and do nothing to add voices outside the one-party system--except for Ron Paul (who runs under the GOP colors)are there any third parties represented in the House? No. And the Senate you have one really a democratic socialist--Bernie Sanders.

If you have a parliamentary system with PR (like single non-transferable vote), you would have representation of Third Parties. It'd probably take throwing out the entire Constitution and starting from square one to get this and I'm not against doing exactly that--but not very likely is it? Most people don't care and the ones that do like the system as it is since it protects their power. The EC and the current system is here to stay I am afraid.

Liberty
The problem is that people who should be qualified to run for president can't--Elaine Chao--born in Taiwan but has lived in the US for nearly 50 years, has been a cabinet official and married to the Senate Minority leader? Think she has any dual loyality to say Taiwan or China (where her parents were born). Then there is Carlos Gutierrez born in Cuba arrived to the US when he was 6 and was Bush 43's Secretary of Commerce? Think he has loyality to Cuba? Schwarzenegger has been in the US since 1966 and married into what has been called the Royal Family of America--the Kennedys. Think he has loyality to Austria?

But the newest Republican flavor of the month is Bobby Jindal--born in Baton Rouge but his parents had been in the US for 6 months. What if he had been born in say Chandigarh or Khanpura and came to the US 6 months later? Would that make him any more loyal to India than he is now?

In 1787, there was probably good reason for the clause as the country was young and loyalities of even its own citizens suspect. This isn't the case today. Orin Hatch's amendment would be to allow anyone American citizen who has lived in the US for 20-years to be be eligible for the presidency. And Hatch is hardly a left-wing nut.




To: flagtag
You have two objections that I'd like to address:

- Delegates can vote for whoever they want.
- Less chance of fraud.

The first one is more of a straw man. Delegates almost always vote for the person they're pledged for. On the very rare occasion when they don't, they vote instead for some third party candidate, often to buy a political favor. They DO NOT vote for the other major party candidate, and they NEVER put their own candidate's win at risk.

Regarding fraud, there's actually a greater risk of fraud in a national popular vote. Consider a state whose vote is 55% or more for one candidate. A potential 'frauder' estimates that he can alter the state's vote by 2% (which is being very generous). Now the state's actual vote will be either 53% or 57%, depending on which way the fraud occurred.

In our Electoral College, this has no effect. The state still went the same way. In a popular election, however, the 2% change DOES directly impact the national vote total. In a close popular election, 2% could change the outcome.

Further, this fraud would be possible EVERYWHERE in the country. In the EC, only "swing states" have this potential. This is why we focus our "voting monitors" on swing states, further reducing the opportunity for fraud.

Ads
Has anyone seen a Skype ad on TH in Chinese? Said for 9.95$ each month I get unlimited calls to China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Save money for 1/2 a year. Just thought it strange that the ad was in Chinese.

To: Akagi
Thank you for clarifying. I misunderstood what you wanted to change.

Honestly, this just isn't high on my priority list. There are thousands of highly qualified people who can run for high political office, so the needs OF THE COUNTRY are being met. You seem focused on the needs OF THESE INDIVIDUALS, who cannot run for these offices.

I agree that your suggestion would be an improvement. I just think that, if you're gonna use the considerable political capital it would take to make a Const. Amendment, there are more important amendments to make.

Electoral college
Consider 2000, the election that led to all the fuss about the electoral college. There were several extremely close states. Gore won most of them, but since Bush won the election, he wasn't asking for recounts in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, etc.. There was a recount only in Florida. Think for a moment of what would have been going on if there were no electoral college, or some conspiracy to avoid the electoral college were in effect.

There would have been a national recount. Both sides would be demanding recounts in every place where there might have been some funny business in the counting.

And the amount of funny business would increase exponentially. Massachusetts and Rhode Island are lopsidedly Democratic. There is no particular reason for Democrats to play with the vote totals in places like Boston and Providence, because it will make no difference in the outcome of those states' electoral votes. Similarly there is no reason for Republicans to play with the vote totals in Utah or eastern Tennessee. Those states are coming in as they're coming in.

If you want national recounts and allegations of vote fraud in all 50 states, just abolish the electoral college. No, thanks!

To: Ellen #16
You ask if 'freedom' and 'liberty' are the same thing. This is an excellent question, as they are not the same thing. Liberty is a higher principle.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want, right up to the point where you are stopped by an EXTERNAL force. We call this force LAW.

Liberty is the ability to do what you want, right up to the point where you are stopped by an INTERNAL force. We call this force MORALITY.

If you read their writings, our Founding Father's had much discussion on LIBERTY and very, very little on FREEDOM. Their hope was that our country would be populated by people who would govern themselves, with very little need for external gov't. In fact, in it's early days, America was referred to as "The Great Experiment" by other countries.

This 'experiment' was to see if a country could operate on this principle of self-government. And it did, for quite awhile.

To: Ken #62
Thank you, Ken. I agree with you totally. I tried to express this too, but you did a better job.

Liberty
"The first one is more of a straw man. Delegates almost always vote for the person they're pledged for. On the very rare occasion when they don't, they vote instead for some third party candidate, often to buy a political favor. They DO NOT vote for the other major party candidate, and they NEVER put their own candidate's win at risk."

True for the first part and being party officials of the winning slate this makes that almost 100% guranteed. In some cases they are required to do so by state law. But faithless electors have voted for the other party, it has just been that there has not ever been enough of them in a single election to change the outcome.

"Regarding fraud, there's actually a greater risk of fraud in a national popular vote."

Since the electors of the EC are appointed due to the popular vote, the fraud chances are no greater in a direct election than how the US runs its elections now.

"In our Electoral College, this has no effect. The state still went the same way. In a popular election, however, the 2% change DOES directly impact the national vote total. In a close popular election, 2% could change the outcome."

A 2% change in the vote could effect the outcome in a close election. See 1976 for example or 2000. A 2% change in Florida would have given Gore the election. Only in a very few cases has the popular vote been within 2%--2004, 2000, 1976, 1968, and 1960. Before 1960 an election hadn't been within 2% since 1888. The elections of 1884 and 1888 were also within 2%. It is also easier to impact 2% in a few states or one state than the entire US.

"Further, this fraud would be possible EVERYWHERE in the country."

It still is under either system.

Proud Reagan Conservative...
You say "If Obama fails this time...then the lack of an Electoral College..."

There's nothing in the article, or in any published reports, that states or suggests that Obama is in any way attempting to do away with the Electoral College.

What an hommage you're created to President Reagan, imitating him by either making up something that doesn't exist, or not fully understanding the issue on the table.

For the rest of you who keep saying "If there was no Electoral College, candidates would campaign in larger metropolitan areas, and would ignore smaller states." So, is it your contention that's how residents of the United States gather information about presidential candidates--they primarily do so by viewing them in person? The vast majority of us never get to a campaign rally even if there is one within easy travel distance, so we gather information the way we do about everything else--by watching the debates, seeing coverage of their campaign stops and speeches, watching the convention, reading from the internet, magazines and newspapers, hearing commentary from party officials and pundits. This fear that candidates won't come to your small state if the EC went away---wow, it's easy to forget how poorly informed and connected to the real world people are.

Akagi - On mistaking me for a GOPer
--
Continuing comments on the allocation of Electoral votes discriminately by Congressional district rather than by state, Akagi observes (as an example) that Crash Test Johnnie would - instead of capturing all 13 of Georgia's Electoral votes en bloc - have "...lost the 4th, 5th and 13th [districts] for sure and perhaps more - the 2nd, 8th and 12th."

Even were I so morally bankrupt as to have supported Russ Feingold's B!tch in that election (which I did not), the fact that there were districts in "red" states that a Republican candidate could not have carried is a matter of indifference to my contention that the "winner-takes-all" disposition of electoral votes actually SUPPRESSES VOTER PARTICIPATION in presidential elections.

We can look retrospectively at the various Congressional districts to see what might have been the distribution of Electoral votes were district-by-district allocation applied.

What we CANNOT do is precisely estimate the rates at which effectively disenfranchised voters might turn out at the polls if they knew that their votes would actually matter in the grand sheme of things.


"That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen."


Being a true American conservative - read "libertarian" - I'm under no illusions about government as an institution.

But if participation in the demos' selection of our "public servants" has any merit at all, institutional impediments to that participation should be removed in order to optimize that participation.

Distict-by-district Electoral vote allocation is a step in that direction.

--

To: Bruce #66
I think you misunderstand. People in small states are not concerned that candidates won't visit them. They are concerned that candidates won't address issues that are important to them. That they'll focus disproportionately on "big-city" vote-getting issues. That they'll ignore the concerns of rural areas.

Bruce
"If there was no Electoral College, candidates would campaign in larger metropolitan areas, and would ignore smaller states."

But that would also impact media buys and how the candidate campaigns. The buys would be directed at LA and Miami and Chicago and Boston, etc. Not Elko. And the tenor of the campaign would be directed at what was important to those in LA and Boston, not per se those in Elko. Small states become critical in close elections. If Bush had lost Nevada in 2000, Gore would have become president.

As for Obama, he has no power to get rid of the EC--that's be up to 2/3rds of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the state houses. But why should he want to? He easily won in the EC. Talk about the EC was big news in 2000-2001, not 2008.


To: Akagi #65
Please see Ken #62. He gives a better explanation of the vote fraud issue.

I'm not saying that the EC has no vote fraud potential. I'm saying that the EC tends to limit fraud by confining it to swing states. A national popular vote would be open to fraud equally all over the country. This is what happened in Mexico's last presidential election, where they had recounts all over their country.

SJ
While no doubt some don't vote because they view their vote not countng, a person say in the Georgia 4th (represented by that fool John Lewis)may not vote because they know there is no way the 4th would vote for McCain or someone in the 11th may not vote because they know there is no way the 11th is going to go for Obama--yes--the 11th does indeed have Obama voters, strange but true.

I am also not all that sure that low voter turnout is a bad thing. I think the opposite. The US has too many people voting, not too few. People (and mostly these were Obama voters) who have no clue about the policies the candidates favor, the issues, or anything. These people should not be voting.

Singapore fines people for not voing, the US should fine some people who do--the stupid ones.

Liberty
While I don't favor a direct presidential election in the US--see problems that can be caused by that see Taiwan's 2004 election when Chen Shui-bian and Annette Lu barely won re-election (amid "assassination" attempts in the closing hours of the election and a host of other issues.


This feels like one of those...
Conversations where one person misunderstands and it's impossible to go back and get them on track.

I'm well aware that Obama has no power to get rid of the EC, that he hasn't said he'd want to, nor would his electoral experience suggest he should. I was responding to the silly thing someone else said--the poster Proud Reagan Conservative, who said "If Obama fails on this (to eliminate the EC), ...", as if Obama had said he wanted to.

As for whether eliminating the EC would allow candidates to ignore the issues that are important to Elko, Nevada...I hate to be the one to break it to you, but for a good long while now candidates have been pretending to care that concerns in Elko were as important as those in LA and Boston, and while their act seems to have fooled you, it's just an act. They do care more--much more--about what happens in California than in Nevada--in Mass than in Maine--and in Florida and Texas than in Alabama and New Mexico. Candidates don't care as much about the 17,000 people in Elko as they do the 10 million in LA, and there's no reason they should.

akagi
you say this

"People (and mostly these were Obama voters) who have no clue about the policies the candidates favor, the issues, or anything. These people should not be voting."

please provide real documentation on your statement about obama voters other than the semi-famous video of "how obama won"

now if you were to say many voters have no clue about the policies, that at least would be objective.

i don't agree with your conclusion though.

the debates reached millions upon millions of people and certainly they were informed.

the stump speeches reached more millions.

the idea that americans are stupid and uninformed is simply lame rhetoric.

Liberty
bisected post.

Fraud is no less likely (and probably much less so) in a direct election than in the EC. As I said, I favor getting rid of the presidential system completely. To steal the election, you'd have to steal enough seats so one party or the other could form a government. I suppose possible in a very very close election--you could swing a few key districts to give the leader of a party enough seats to form a government, but not very likely and no less likely than doing so with the EC.

Lib
"the idea that americans are stupid and uninformed is simply lame rhetoric."

They are and they prove it in poll after poll.

Dumb as dirt comes to mind.

http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/resources/quiz.aspx

Only 50% or so of college Freshman could pass this test. A test I scored 100% on and one I consider easy.

While not scientific test, the viedo you cite is very telling. Hannity does this all the time. People--many people--who vote are simply too stupid to vote, but sadly there is little that can be done about it.


Akagi has just shown us...
Why the GOP lost the 2006 and 2008 elections and is headed for minority status.

A study in early 2008 by the Pew Center asked people about recent events and policy questions, and then asked from which source respondents got the majority of their news.

Those repondents who got the majority of their news from NPR did the best in answering the most questions correctly. The group that did the worst--those who get the majority of their news from FoxNews.

What made this even more interesting was that the re-did the study later with another wrinkle--they asked respondents how confident they were that their answers were correct. Again, those most accurate answers came from another group of NPR listeners, and the least accurate came from those who watch FoxNews. But those who watch Fox were far more certain their answers were correct--and the more likely their answers were wrong, the more certain they were that they were right.

Akagi, were you in that sample?

Obama
Bruce. Well, Obama seemed to care enough to show up and in 2008 Nevada was much more important than either Mass or California as both of these states were lost causes to McCain while Nevada which voted for Bush twice was in serious danger of voting for Obama (and it did thanks to Washoe and Clark counties).

Now as to if Obama will be interested in Elko's concerns which mostly deal with ranching and mining we shall see. The Elko region though has about 45,000 people.

Akagi - On voter disenfranchisement
--
Writes Akagi:

"I am also not all that sure that low voter turnout is a bad thing. I think the opposite. The US has too many people voting, not too few. People (and mostly these were Obama voters) who have no clue about the policies the candidates favor, the issues, or anything. These people should not be voting."


I'm of a triflingly Heinleinian opinion on the subject. Remember him suggesting that a voter should have to solve an elementary quadratic equation in the voting booth before being allowed to cast his ballot?

The trouble with your position here is that there is absolutely nothing of a "selection against stupid" in your approach. You take as a benefit ANY reduction in the total number of voters, and there's no basis in either fact or reason for such a supposition.

Indeed, it can be argued that it is PRECISELY the more sensible, perceptive, and thoughtful members of the public who comprise the "overwhelmed" non-participatory voters upon whom the impact of the Electoral College system imposes a disincentive to cast what are essentially worthless ballots in presidential elections.

Stupid people will vote without having the sense to realize that their choices aren't even symbolically significant.

(( Curmudgeons like me do it for no other reason than informed hatred. But that's a different topic altogether.... ))




=====
"Voting is worse than futile; it's immoral. A single vote can't make any difference, except, rarely, in a local election; it's like a grain of sand in the Sahara. But elections serve to strengthen, by seeming to legitimize, a bad system. They make people feel emotionally committed to that system, with all its aggression against justice and individual rights."

-- Joe Sobran

Electoral College
The only problem I have with this current system is that it takes away my right to a vote that matters. Here in New York, there is a large majority of Democratic voters so my more conservative votes get lost in the ocean of liberals. Why not let each voting district cast its own majority vote rather than bunching the whole state together? I live in a relatively conservative district that is usually overpowered by the other districts in the state that are liberal so the vote I cast ends up showing up as New York- Democrat. It's not even worth going to vote because it's a predetermined conclusion that the liberal candidate will usually win anyway.

Akagi
You may be new to America...

Just so you know, if counties in Nevada (or any state) are about to vote for any candidate, they're not "in danger" of voting for that candidate (Obama in this case). They're exercising their right to vote for the candidate of their choice.

In some other posts you've said that some voters--large groups it would seem from your comments--are too stupid to be able to vote competently. This is a very arrogant and elitist view that isn't in keeping with the spirit of America. It's ironic that if you read TH much you'll see that most posters here would claim that it's the liberals who are elitist and think they're better than most other citizens, but it's clear that anyone (you, in this case) can make that mistake.

Fear of an Alliance Party
If not for the Electoral process, the President of the United States could be elected by voters exclusively from just the heavily populated areas. Think about it. California makes up 12% of the population of the United States, where New York and Texas make up 7% and 8% respectively. Add it up.
If not for the Electoral Process, the nine states that make up half of the US’s population, New Jersey, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Florida, New York, Texas, and California would decide the Presidency of the United States, and lesser-populated states, such as Wyoming, Vermont, North Dakota, Alaska, Hawaii, and South Dakota would not even be represented in the Election process.
Election 2000 was the perfect example of the wisdom of the Electoral process. Sixty percent (60%) of the states selected the president, and when the "folks" in states like South Dakota pulled that lever, their vote was counted. Sixty percent of the states decided who would represent the mishmash of individuals that make up the United States of America. One hundred percent of the states were represented simply because it was the fear of an Alliance Party, of which was the archetype Alexander Hamilton wrote about in Federalist No. 68 March 14, 1788:

”Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union”
http://depictbooks.blogtownhall.com/

IGNORANCE OF THE OBAMANATION
ARGANCE OF THE VOTERS OF THE OBAMANATION.

VOTING WILL SAVE ALL STATES
ARGANCE IS OBAMANESE FOR IGNORANCE AND ARROGANCE.

More Authentic Frontier Gibberish
Patrick never disappoints. His life is a non-sequitur, so he's made them his life's work.

Bruce
Washoe and Clark went for Kerry and Gore too just not to the extent they did in 2008. And an added problem, rural Nevada while going for McCain didn't do so as much as they supported Bush in 2000 and 2004. From the McCain view, Nevada was in danger of falling into the enemy camp and looking out at other blue states crumbling, he couldn't win if he lost Nevada (he'd lost even if Nevada had gone for him 100%, but he had no idea how bad this was going to be in September when Obama paid his visit to Elko).

"In some other posts you've said that some voters--large groups it would seem from your comments--are too stupid to be able to vote competently. This is a very arrogant and elitist view that isn't in keeping with the spirit of America."

This is very much in the keeping of the spirit of America. Remember for decades only the elite could vote in the US. I'm not being an elitist--just that people shouldn't vote if they don't have at least some understanding of the candidates position and the issues involved. If you can't name the three branches or tell us who has the power to declare war, you shouldn't be allowed to vote...perhaps even breed. The last part was a joke...sorta.

Bruce
TH strikes again. So sorry if this is a re-post.

New to America? I don't know. How long you been here? New is relative isn't it?


Akagi
You make an interesting point about the prior practice in America where very few were allowed to vote, but my comment was about the spirit of America, where we're all in this together and deserve our say about our leadership, our national agenda, etc. There were plenty of rules we used to follow (OK to own slaves, women and blacks couldn't vote, etc) that didn't fit with the spirit that made America different and better.

Bruce
I think the standard of actually knowing who the candidates are and the issues they support and the basic functions of government (who can declare war, who is CIC, which branch determines the constitutionality of laws, who passes laws) and the like is not too much of a burden to bear. If you can't answer these questions you should have the common sense to stay home and not vote. If you don't, then the government should make sure you don't vote.

Some have said the more you earn the more votes you get or those on welfare or who pay no taxes should not get a vote. I can see their point, but my concern is stupidity canceling out ones made diligently. Like those losers in Palm Beach back in 2000. Look, it is your responsibility to make sure the chad is fully detached and it corresponds to the candidate you wanted to vote for and no I don't care if you were a holocaust survivor or if you were half-blind--voting is not only a right but a responsibility and as part of that responsibility is being informed and if you can't do that you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

In a way a Gresham's law deal--bad voters force out the good.



Akagi - On Crash Test Johnnie...
--
...and the Nitrocellulose Dog's chances of chasing down the Asbestos Cat in hell, we have Akagi writing that the Enemy Ace knew:

"...couldn't win if he lost Nevada (he'd lost even if Nevada had gone for him 100%, but he had no idea how bad this was going to be in September when Obama paid his visit to Elko)."


Akagi, the Admiral's Spoiled Brat - the only Republican among the five Senators "servicing" constituent Charles H. Keating, Jr. - no more expected to win the U.S. presidency last November than he expected paroxysmally to grow a vagina.

When that wasted lump of "bipartisan" rottenness rose on 4 September to speak in acceptance of the Stupid Party's nomination, what he gave America was a concession speech in advance.

Having done their amazing best to precipitate the current economic decompensation, America's "court party" -

(( see see http://www.lewrockwell.com/wilson/wilson20.html ))

- was determined to get *out* of the hot seat, and leave the disaster to come down on their nominal rivals, the Evil Party.

Thus the nomination and Bob-Dole-ish campaign of Panama Patsy.


D'you really mean to sit before your computer and contend that our last November's great American Kabuki theater mass-masturbation was meant even to simulate a real contest?





=====
"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the tub."

-- Grover Norquist

SJ
You may have a point. I thought after the GOP convention he had a slight shot--50/50. When Lehman Brothers failed on September 15 (11 days after McCain accepted the nomination)I knew it was over.

He did run a Dole-like campaign--something I pointed out at the time that he was like Dole and would lose like Dole. Palin was a stupid pick, but she did not harm, but no good either--Dan Quayle 2.0 and his failure to attack Obama on a host of issues was strange. Perhaps you are right and the GOP rather give the seat on the bridge of the Titanic to Obama.


Why only elite voted
You are correct that, at the Founding, only certain classes of people could vote, mostly land owners. There was a very logical reason for this.

The reason was, back then, these people were the ones who paid 99.99% of the Federal taxes. And since a major part of the Fed gov't is the collecting and spending of tax money, it made since that only those people with money in the pot should be deciding who got to spend that money.

Of course, back then, the vast majority of people had no interaction with the Fed. gov't at all. They paid no money in, and they received no financial benefits. Today, everyone receives money from the Fed. gov't.

This has had the effect of corrupting our vote. Voters used to vote in order to elect people of high moral character who would see to it that their gov't stayed within its Constitutional bounds. Now they vote in order to elect people who can "bring home the bacon". Everyone wants the gov't to provide instead of protect. And it's ruining our country.

Elite, not exactly
But Free, white, Male, property owners
Defined thus as elite then, maybe, not now

Are you sure?
One person, one vote is democracy, which is fine when one has a democracy, we don't, we have a republic. The author is superimposing on the Constitution something that was not in the main a concern for the Framers, as the focus of the Constitutional Convention was state vs. national power, and state empowerment won out.
Another thing; the author asks and is troubled that innovation might threaten the supposed two party system. WOW!! If that would be the case I'm all for it, whatever it is. Well not really, but the thought of breaking the power of all these professional politicians is something that would be beneficial to us all.

Wake up Bruce
Please stop this drivel about the spirit of America. You talk about a national agenda, which shows your own ignorance about the foundations of this country. There were those who came to Constitutional Convention with the intent to form a National government. They are not the ones who won out, it was the true Federalists, who some refer to as anti-federalists, those who wanted a federal government that would be the agent of the states, and not the other way around. The federal government is not about individuals but states, and in electing a President the issue is how to best see to it that the concerns of the states are attended to.

Lenard
State power may have won out in 1787, but Lincoln made sure that didn't last. Today, the states are sovereign in name only and are basically captives of the Federal government and unlike those kidnapped or POWs, the states have no chance of freedom--Lincoln and his Supreme Court made sure of that too (Texas v. White).


change in Florida?
I'm a fan of the Congressional District Method practiced by NE and ME, so I asked my state senator to sponsor an enabling bill in the FL legislature. The senator responded positively about the matter though he must wait until next year to push the issue. Don't like the current system? Push for change in your state.

koolmuse
You're reading a bit too much into the 12A argument. I'm no fan of Bush or Cheney, but he wasn't defined as a resident of Texas when Bush won the Presidency. He was a legal resident of Wyoming, he couldn't vote in Texas.

The 12A doesn't specify when or how long a VP has to be a resident of a different state. He moved his residency back to Wyoming months before the election and was not a Texas resident. This argument is as stupid as the Obama Birth Certificate crowd.

P.S. - I think Obama is slime, so can't try and catch me on partisan arguments.

Akagi
I was all set to argue against you regarding the "natural born citizen" requirement. However after some thought I believe you are correct. What led me to this conclusion is my own experience. I was born in one state but moved to another prior to being six months old. Spent 85% of my life in that state. Even though I have lived in a third state the last 11 years I still consider myself to be a native of the state I grew up in. I feel no connection with the state I was actually born in.

Electoral College
Pursuant to the framers' concept, the federal government is a federation of soverign states. It is the states that elect the president, not the individuals who make up the populace of the entire nation. The citizens of each state decide how they want their state to vote for president. No system is perfect. However, as individuals, we have some insulation from tyranny that we would not have from a direct election. The idea that the framers had was to keep too much power from getting into the hands of the federal government. We need to stay focused on the fact that all governments, including ours, seek to impose a tyranny upon their citizens. Please, let's all be vigilent.

The same old same old
Just before, during, and just after presidential elections there is often a lot of idle chatter about abolishing the Electoral College. The further down the road we go from the election, the less people are interested in the whole Electoral College issue. What can stimulate a burst of this chatter is if there has been a fairly recent election in which the candidate who received the larger popular vote lost because his rival won a majority of the electoral votes. This isn't an ongoing problem, and generally only real political junkies keep the issue alive at all.

Greenberg does a good job of summarizing some of the alternatives and their shortcomings. What I'm really surprised about is that so few people on the Right have considered the possibility that, if the US did shift to one of several of the alternatives Greenberg mentions, it would be much EASIER to elect a truly conservative president. Suppose that a strong conservative candidate only had to get maybe 30% or so of the popular vote to win. Why conservatives aren't pushing to abolish the EC puzzles me. The chances for any strongly ideological candidate are better if the field of candidates is larger, or if there is a run-off election. Conservatives, being conservative about the EC, prevents conservatives from taking the Presidency. Oh well, we liberals are glad that you folks haven't figured all this out yet.

No right to vote anyway...
First off in response to many posts above: we ain't no democracy. We don't select a President by a vote of the people; rather, it is by a weighted vote OF THE STATES. It is up to each state to decide how that state chooses who to vote for via its electors. THERE IS NO RIGHT FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VOTE FOR A PRESIDENT! Don't believe it? Look it up!

koolmuse and 12th
Wow!! All I can say is you're missing it or reading into the 12th Amendment something not there. The 12th amendment merely is a further iteration of what I said earlier "the Federal govenrment is an agent of the states". Let me help you here ALL THE STATES. The 12th amendment takes nothing away from that statement but rather validates it in that it shows that the welfare of all the states needed to be considered, which would not be the case if we were a national government for it would then be meaningless. I really don't see how you could come away with any other conclusion.

frankly akagi
I tire of your defeatist comments. I guess in the same way a wife being beaten for 20 years should not then decide she will not take it anymore.

Shortcomings of the current system
The major shortcoming of the current system of electing the President is that presidential candidates concentrate their attention on a handful of closely divided "battleground" states. 98% of the 2008 campaign events involving a presidential or vice-presidential candidate occurred in just 15 closely divided “battleground” states. Over half (57%) of the events were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia). Similarly, 98% of ad spending took place in these 15 “battleground” states. Similarly, in 2004, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states and over 99% of their money in 16 states.
Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential elections. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or worry about the voter concerns in states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind. The reason for this is the winner-take-all rule enacted by 48 states, under which all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who gets the most votes in each separate state.

Another shortcoming of the current system is that a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide. This has occurred in one of every 14 presidential elections.

In the past six decades, there have been six presidential elections in which a shift of a relatively small number of votes in one or two states would have elected (and, of course, in 2000, did elect) a presidential candidate who lost the popular vote nationwide.

the National Popular Vote bill
In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state’s electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided). The recent Washington Post, Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University poll shows 72% support for direct nationwide election of the President. This national result is similar to recent polls in closely divided battleground states: Colorado — 68%, Iowa — 75%, Michigan — 73%, Missouri — 70%, New Hampshire — 69%, Nevada — 72%, New Mexico — 76%, North Carolina — 74%, Ohio — 70%, Pennsylvania — 78%, Virginia — 74%, and Wisconsin — 71%; in smaller states (3 to 5 electoral votes): Delaware — 75%, Maine — 71%, Nebraska — 74%, New Hampshire — 69%, Nevada — 72%, New Mexico — 76%, Rhode Island — 74%, and Vermont — 75%; in Southern and border states: Arkansas —80%, Kentucky — 80%, Mississippi —77%, Missouri — 70%, North Carolina — 74%, and Virginia — 74%; and in other states polled: California — 70%, Connecticut — 73% , Massachusetts — 73%, New York — 79%, and Washington — 77%.

The National Popular Vote bill has passed 23 state legislative chambers, including one house in Arkansas, Colorado, Maine, Michigan, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Washington, and both houses in California, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Vermont. The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, and Maryland. These four states possess 50 electoral votes — 19% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com




woody wilson
during woodies term:

we lost our senators in a flawed amendment to the constitution.

we lost control of our money as it was turned over to the big bank cartel from europe.

we lost our states' independence when the individual income tax went directly to d.c. this was by changing the intent of the founders work by changing 1 word in the body of the constition that had been originally meant to protect the citizens from this exact outcome.

we lost thousands of americans in ww1 so that the rich war profiteers could protect their investment in england and france by entering militarily on the allied side. bring you fodder to the slaughter.

so, if we lose more of our liberties by a direct vote, most citizens wouldn't notice at all, since they haven't noticed in the past.

adios,
ab
lancaster, prop8ifornia
push 1 for english you gringo dummy

The Founding Fathers and Constitution
What the Founding Fathers said in the U.S. Constitution is "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, that the voters may vote and the winner-take-all rule) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, it was necessary to own a substantial amount of property in order to vote, and only 3 states used the winner-take-all rule (awarding all of a state's electoral vote to the candidate who gets the most votes in the state). Since then, as a result of changes in state laws, the people have the right to vote for presidential electors in 100% of the states, there are no property requirements for voting in any state, and the winner-take-all rule is used by 48 of the 50 states.

The normal process of effecting change in the method of electing the President is specified the U.S. Constitution, namely action by the state legislatures. This is how the current system was created, and this is the built-in method that the Constitution provides for making changes.


Federalism
Federalism concerns the allocation of power between state governments and the national government. The National Popular Vote bill concerns how votes are tallied, not how much power state governments possess relative to the national government. The powers of state governments are neither increased nor decreased based on whether presidential electors are selected along the state boundary lines, along district lines (as is currently the case in Maine and Nebraska), or national lines.

Republic
National Popular Vote has nothing to do with whether the country has a "republican" form of government or is a "democracy."

A "republican" form of government means that the voters do not make laws themselves but, instead, delegate the job to periodically elected officials (Congressmen, Senators, and the President). The United States has a "republican" form of government regardless of whether popular votes for presidential electors are tallied at the state-level (as is currently the case in 48 states) or at district-level (as is currently the case in Maine and Nebraska) or at 50-state-level (as under the National Popular Vote bill).

If a "republican" form of government means that the presidential electors exercise independent judgment (like the College of Cardinals that elects the Pope), we have had a "democratic" method of electing presidential electors since 1796 (the first contested presidential election). Ever since 1796, presidential candidates have been nominated by a central authority (originally congressional caucuses, and now party conventions) and electors are reliable rubberstamps for the voters of the district or state that elected them.


Mob Rule is from Handful of States
The people vote for President now in all 50 states and have done so in most states for 200 years.

So, the issue raised by the National Popular Vote legislation is not about whether there will be "mob rule" in presidential elections, but whether the "mob" in a handful of closely divided battleground states, such as Florida, get disproportionate attention from presidential candidates, while the "mobs" of the vast majority of states are ignored. In 2004, candidates spent over two thirds of their visits and two-thirds of their money in just 6 states and 99% of their money in just 16 states, while ignoring the rest of the country.

The current system does NOT provide some kind of check on the "mobs." There have been 22,000 electoral votes cast since presidential elections became competitive (in 1796), and only 10 have been cast for someone other than the candidate nominated by the elector's own political party. The electors are dedicated party activists who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

Small States are the most disadvantaged
The small states are the most disadvantaged of all under the current system of electing the President. Political clout comes from being a closely divided battleground state, not the two-vote bonus.

Small states are almost invariably non-competitive in presidential election. Only 1 of the 13 smallest states are battleground states (and only 5 of the 25 smallest states are battlegrounds).

Of the 13 smallest states, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Alaska regularly vote Republican, and Rhode Island, Delaware, Hawaii, Vermont, Maine, and DC regularly vote Democratic. These 12 states together contain 11 million people. Because of the two electoral-vote bonus that each state receives, the 12 non-competitive small states have 40 electoral votes. However, the two-vote bonus is an entirely illusory advantage to the small states. Ohio has 11 million people and has "only" 20 electoral votes. As we all know, the 11 million people in Ohio are the center of attention in presidential campaigns, while the 11 million people in the 12 non-competitive small states are utterly irrelevant. Nationwide election of the President would make each of the voters in the 12 smallest states as important as an Ohio voter.

Small States Understand Disadvantages
The fact that the bonus of two electoral votes is an illusory benefit to the small states has been widely recognized by the small states for some time. In 1966, Delaware led a group of 12 predominantly low-population states (North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Utah, Arkansas, Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Kentucky, Florida, Pennsylvania) in suing New York in the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that New York's use of winner-take-all effectively disenfranchised voters in their states. The Court declined to hear the case (presumably because of the well-established constitutional provision that the manner of awarding electoral votes is exclusively a state decision). Ironically, defendant New York is no longer a battleground state (as it was in the 1960s) and today suffers the very same disenfranchisement as the 12 non-competitive low-population states. A vote in New York is, today, equal to a vote in Wyoming--both are equally worthless and irrelevant in presidential elections.

The concept of a national popular vote for President is far from being politically “radioactive” in small states, because the small states recognize they are the most disadvantaged group of states under the current system.

In small states, the National Popular Vote bill already has been approved by a total of seven state legislative chambers, including one house in Maine and both houses in Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Vermont. It has been enacted by Hawaii.

Medium-Small States in Same Boat
Most of the medium-small states (with five or six electoral votes) are similarly non-competitive in presidential elections (and therefore similarly disadvantaged). In fact, of the 22 medium-smallest states (those with three, four, five, or six electoral votes), only New Hampshire (with four electoral votes), New Mexico (five electoral votes), and Nevada (five electoral votes) have been battleground states in recent elections.

Because so few of the 22 small and medium-small states are closely divided battleground states in presidential elections, the current system actually shifts power from voters in the small and medium-small states to voters in a handful of big states. The New York Times reported early in 2008 (May 11, 2008) that both major political parties were already in agreement that there would be at most 14 battleground states in 2008 (involving only 166 of the 538 electoral votes). In other words, three-quarters of the states were ignored under the current system in the 2008 election. Michigan (17 electoral votes), Ohio (20), Pennsylvania (21), and Florida (27) contain over half of the electoral votes that mattered in 2008 (85 of the 166 electoral votes). There were only three battleground states among the 22 small and medium-small states (i.e., New Hampshire, New Mexico, and Nevada). These three states contain only 14 of the 166 electoral votes. Anyone concerned about the relative power of big states and small states should realize that the current system shifts power from voters in the small and medium-small states to voters in a handful of big states.

Big State Realities
The 11 most populous states contain 56% of the population of the United States and that a candidate would win the Presidency if 100% of the voters in these 11 states voted for one candidate. However, if anyone is concerned about the this theoretical possibility, it should be pointed out that, under the current system, a candidate could win the Presidency by winning a mere 51% of the vote in these same 11 states — that is, a mere 26% of the nation’s votes.

Of course, the political reality is that the 11 largest states rarely act in concert on any political question. In terms of recent presidential elections, the 11 largest states include five “red” states (Texas, Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, and Georgia) and six “blue” states (California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and New Jersey). The fact is that the big states are just about as closely divided as the rest of the country. For example, among the four largest states, the two largest Republican states (Texas and Florida) generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Bush, while the two largest Democratic states generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Kerry.

Big State Realities
The notion that any candidate could win 100% of the vote in one group of states and 0% in another group of states is far-fetched. Indeed, among the 11 most populous states, the highest levels of popular support were found in the following seven non-battleground states:
* Texas (62% Republican),
* New York (59% Democratic),
* Georgia (58% Republican),
* North Carolina (56% Republican),
* Illinois (55% Democratic),
* California (55% Democratic), and
* New Jersey (53% Democratic).

In addition, the margins generated by the nation’s largest states are hardly overwhelming in relation to the 122,000,000 votes cast nationally. Among the 11 most populous states, the highest margins were the following seven non-battleground states:
* Texas — 1,691,267 Republican
* New York — 1,192,436 Democratic
* Georgia — 544,634 Republican
* North Carolina — 426,778 Republican
* Illinois — 513,342 Democratic
* California — 1,023,560 Democratic
* New Jersey — 211,826 Democratic

To put these numbers in perspective, Oklahoma (7 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 — larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes). Utah (5 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004.


Big City Realities
When presidential candidates campaign to win the electoral votes of closely divided battleground states, such as in Ohio and Florida, the big cities in those battleground states do not receive all the attention, much less control the outcome. Cleveland and Miami certainly did not receive all the attention or control the outcome in Ohio and Florida in 2000 and 2004.

Under a national popular vote, every vote is equally important politically. There is nothing special about a vote cast in a big city. When every vote is equal, candidates of both parties know that they must seek out voters in small, medium, and large towns throughout the state in order to win the state. A vote cast in a big city is no more valuable than a vote cast in a small town or rural area.

Another way to look at this is that there are approximately 300 million Americans. The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities is only 19% of the population of the United States. Even if one makes the far-fetched assumption that a candidate won 100% of the votes in the nation’s top five cities, he would only have won 6% of the national vote.

Nationwide Marketing Realities
evidence of the way a nationwide presidential campaign would be run comes from the way that national advertisers conduct nationwide sales campaigns. National advertisers seek out customers in small, medium, and large towns of every small, medium, and large state. National advertisers do not advertise only in big cities. Instead, they go after every single possible customer, regardless of where the customer is located. National advertisers do not write off Indiana or Illinois merely because their competitor has an 8% lead in sales in those states. And, a national advertiser with an 8%-edge over its competitor does not stop trying to make additional sales in Indiana or Illinois merely because they are in the lead.

Awarding Electors by District is Worse
The congressional district method of awarding electoral votes (currently used in Maine and Nebraska) would not help make every vote matter. In NC, for example, there are only 4 of the 13 congressional districts that would be close enough to get any attention. A smaller fraction of the county's population lives in competitive congressional districts (about 12%) than in the current battleground states (about 30%). Also, a second-place candidate could still win the White House without winning the national popular vote.


Plurality wins
Under the current system of electing the President, no state requires that a presidential candidate receive anything more than a plurality of the popular votes in order to receive all of the state’s electoral votes.

Not a single legislative bill has been introduced in any state legislature in recent decades (among the more than 100,000 bills that are introduced in every two-year period by the nation’s 7,300 state legislators) proposing to change the existing universal practice of the states to award electoral votes to the candidate who receives a plurality (as opposed to absolute majority) of the votes (statewide or district-wide). There is no evidence of any public sentiment in favor of imposing such a requirement.


No Evidence Points to Proliferation
After more than 10,000 statewide elections in the past two hundred years, there is no evidence of any tendency toward a massive proliferation of third-party candidates in elections in which the winner is simply the candidate receiving the most votes throughout the entire jurisdiction served by the office. No such tendency has emerged in other jurisdictions, such as congressional districts or state legislative districts. There is no evidence or reason to expect the emergence of some unique new political dynamic that would promote multiple candidacies if the President were elected in the same manner as every other elected official in the United States.

Based on historical evidence, there is far more fragmentation of the vote under the current state-by-state system of electing the President than in elections in which the winner is simply the candidate who receives the most popular votes in the jurisdiction involved.

Current System Encourages Candidates
Under the current state-by-state system of electing the President (in which the candidate who receives a plurality of the popular vote wins all of the state’s electoral votes), minor-party candidates have significantly affected the outcome in six (40%) of the 15 presidential elections in the past 60 years (namely the 1948, 1968, 1980, 1992, 1996, and 2000 presidential elections). The reason that the current system has encouraged so many minor-party candidates and so much fragmentation of the vote is that a presidential candidate with no hope of winning a plurality of the votes nationwide has 51 separate opportunities to shop around for particular states where he can affect electoral votes or where he might win outright. Thus, under the current system, segregationists such as Strom Thurmond (1948) or George Wallace (1968) won electoral votes in numerous Southern states, although they had no chance of receiving the most popular votes nationwide. In addition, candidates such as John Anderson (1980), Ross Perot (1992 and 1996), and Ralph Nader (2000) did not win a plurality of the popular vote in any state, but managed to affect the outcome by switching electoral votes in numerous particular states.

christianlib at 2:46
Your comment here shows that you don't understand the issues either, or better put THE ISSUE. What is that issue? What is the Federal government supposed to do? In the main Article 1, Section 8,and trade negotiations with other countries. Nowhere in there is Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, the NEA, the Dept. of Education, etc. This is where the ignorance and misinformed condition state of the general voting public is a problem, and perhaps it should not be solving a quadratic equation as SJDoc cited that is the test applied, but something akin to the civics test Akagi referenced earlier. Well, on that one can only dream.

susan
I can see that this national popular vote is of importance to you. You've obviously done research and put effort into your postings, so please hear me in this; The problem is not really how the President is elected, or least it's not something of major concern. Of much greater importance is the power that the Federal government has usurped, that then makes the election of the President an issue of such proportion. If Congress were confined to only their granted powers given in Article 1, Section 8, and would not allow those such as Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Clinton and Bush to run over them we probably would not be discussing the EC. So, as I see it who we elect to Congress, and who we elect to our own state governments (who allow this usurpation to go on, but have not always) has more impact than the mere election of some manager+. If you think it otherwise please explain.

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God Bless You for your service to our nation!



The Brilliance of it all
Before I became educated, and long after I got my college degree, I too, thought the Electoral College was somehow not allowing my voice to be heard. But then when history was explained what the Founders had done I could see its brilliance.
The House was to represent the voice of the people so it was elected directly by their votes.
The Senate, the more deliberative association, was to be chosen by the legislatures of each state, assuring that they would look out for the interests of the state and not become, as they are now, national officeholders.
The President would be elected by the Electoral College, a group of people sufficiently educated, selected by prominent party officials, and engaged in the affairs of government. These would be people that could not be swayed by trifling hoopla which so often is displayed by swooning crowds chanting mindless slogans.

If we could revert to the Founders' method of electing Senators(by repealing the 17th amendment) we would have a better system.We've only been choosing senators this way since 1913.

But please do not remove the Electoral College.

HOW ABOUT REPEALING THE 17th AMENDMENT
while we are thinking about it. It was approved April 8, 1913. That's the date we went from being the 48 United States of America to the 48 United Counties of America.

How About Plan C?
How about getting the electoral college and all those involved in the election process go to Plan C which is really Plan A - vet the birth of a presidential candidate and follow Article II of the U.S. Constitution before election and follow the supreme laws of the land - as even the U.S. Justices have stifled the law in every which way and continue to deny due process of law to move forward because of their personal, political, or failure to realize that they are being paid with our tax dollars to uphold the U.S. Constitution which includes Article II.

Nothin' for Akagi or Susan,
But A.B.NORMAL,. . you have got it goin' on!

The biggest mistake of the Wilson term was the popularization of the Senate! There was solid thought, . . long debated and deliberated, that decided to assign Senate seats in that, original, way! The baby went out with the bathwater, and that was just for openers!

We would do well to beat liberals to the punch and declare a third "Constitutional Congress", dedicated to finding our way back to the original, as opposed to updating it!

The Popular Vote
Mr. Greenberg is right about the problems with the popular vote. As he said,all you have to do is look at Florida in 2000. Or even more scary,
Minnesota right now. I believe the battle for that senate seat is till going on.
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