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Monday, August 04, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Come One, Come All to the Genocide Olympics
by Paul Greenberg
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In the glow of the Olympics, the regime sponsoring them can hope that some of its more sordid policies will be overlooked.

See the triumph A. Hitler scored with the Nazi Olympics of 1936, featuring the New Germany. Willkommen! Pay no attention to those frightened little people being herded away. The 400-meter relay is today and you don't want to miss it. So move along. Schnell!)

This year it's the New China that's putting on the Olympics. (Huan Ying! Welcome to the new capitalized, commercialized, cosmeticized and no longer so Communist China. You'll want to see the Synchronized Swimming, the Artistic Gymnastics. Yes, that's Tiananmen Square, but nothing important has happened there since the time of the emperors. Pay no mind to the protesters cordoned off in the corner. We'll deal with them later.)

Like other totalitarian Olympics - Berlin, 1936; Moscow, 1980 - all will be in order in Beijing, 2008. And had better be.

One World One Dream! That's the official motto of these proceedings. No need to go into detail about Tibet and certain other of the host's nightmarish policies. For example:

Beijing's diplomatic support for the vicious regime in Sudan, whose ruthless leader, one Omar al-Bashir, has just been indicted by an international court for genocide, crimes against humanity and the usual litany of war crimes. There's a reason this year's games should be called the Genocide Olympics.

Beijing was also a great supporter of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe until that minor but vicious tyrant began to stumble. And it provides diplomatic cover for the brutal Burmese junta, too. These people always seem to find one another.

They would seem an odd couple at first, the Genocide Olympics in Beijing and the wholesome spirit of amateur sport. But they go together as naturally as crime and the criminal's wanting to change the subject.

In preparation for this quadrennial festival of sportsmanship, the authorities have rounded up hundreds of prominent dissenters - some 700 at last count. Just like the old days in Moscow and, before that, in Berlin.

All will be harmonious in Beijing, too, by the time all the tourists have poured in. The Olympic Village will be pretty as a picture. A misleading one. Prince Potemkin had nothing on Hu Jintao.

Politics and the Olympics have been intertwined since there have been Olympics, ancient or modern, and this year is no different. The general who directed the American team at the 1928 Olympics, Douglas MacArthur, called them "war without weapons."

But the Games must go on, if only to provide repressive regimes with cover. "Think of the press as a great keyboard upon which the government can play." -Josef Goebbels, Reichsminister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, 1936.

More impressive than all the folderol that will attend the opening of 2008 Olympics is the hypocrisy of pretending that something like the Genocide Olympics is a celebration of international peace and brotherhood. What it really celebrates is power politics, empty blather, and sport as (very big) business.

In a classic little essay that's well worth re-reading - as so many of his are - George Orwell dissented from the prevailing view then and now that international sports bring people together. If they do, he argued, it was only to pit them against each other:

"I am always amazed when I hear people saying that sport creates goodwill between the nations, and that if only the common peoples of the world could meet one another at football or cricket, they would have no inclination to meet on the battlefield. Even if one didn't know from concrete examples (the 1936 Olympic Games, for instance) that international sporting contests lead to orgies of hatred, one could deduce it from general principles.

"Nearly all the sports practised nowadays are competitive. You play to win, and the game has little meaning unless you do your utmost to win. On the village green, where you pick up sides and no feeling of local patriotism is involved, it is possible to play simply for the fun and exercise: but as soon as the question of prestige arises, as soon as you feel that you and some larger unit will be disgraced if you lose, the most savage combative instincts are aroused. Anyone who has played even in a school football match knows this." -"The Sporting Spirit," The Tribune, December 14, 1945.

Orwell couldn't help noticing the bad feelings these mass spectacles inspire, and he'd never even seen a Yankees-Red Sox game. But he knew about soccer riots.

Any summer camp counselor who's ever had to referee a color war at the end of the season knows the phenomenon writ small - but it's just as vicious. Divide kids into two different groups, give them different insignia and group loyalties, have them compete at games, and they'll promptly start snarling at each other. Frightening.

The best thing about these Genocide Olympics, like the procession of the Olympic Torch earlier this year that set off protests in international capital after capital, is that this year's Games may produce some trenchant criticism of the whole sham - like George Orwell's back in 1945.

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Absolutely!
Who even really cares about the Olympics? It's a steroid game of hide and seek. Hardly the best of the best. Who can out deceit who is more like it. Just more money thrown up in the air. The only event worth anything would be to see who could pitch that worthless torch the farthest.

OK. But I still love sports...
All sports can be corrupted, abused, cause ill will and more. That is a given. Major League baseball, the NFL, college sports... why, just attend a local Pop Warner game and listen to the parents in the stands if you want to know how bad it can get. Put those emotions on a national level, with national pride on the line and it will - naturally - get even worse.

Still there is something about watching a man run with a long pole then launch himself about a mile in the air - over the crossbar - and plummet to earth... or to watch eight runners cross 100 yards (meters now) in under ten seconds... or to lift a bar so laden with weight that it bends earthward...

Should China - or any repressive regime - host the Olympics? No. Will we achieve world peace through sport? Silly question... and the answer is still "no." Will sport solve any crisis, cure any disease, stop any conflict or resolve any dispute? Get real.

Neither will the NFL, the NCAA's "March Madness" or anything else. What sport does is give some of us a respite... a breather from the normal cares and concerns of the world. And I still love to watch and to cheer for my team... even if WW3 might be around the corner.

dc
I certainly hear you! You sound like one of our sons in law!!! I know next to nothing about sports but I know that it's totally ridiculous what is happening right now with Favre in Green Bay!!!!! sheesh.....
What a spectacle!

Tainted Gold and Bittersweet Victories
How very very sad. Am I the last of the romantics who honestly believes that the majority of the competing athletes really do want to claim the title of "best of their game" Sports may be big business and greed no doubt plays a part in much of what goes on. But when I see the young people working so hard to conquer the skills they need to be "olympians", I have to believe they are earnest in their quest for excellence. Most of our athletes are good students with serious goals beyond their glory days of sports competition.
China may not deserve the focal (positive) attention that the Olympic Games bring, but the athletes do. What a miserable cynical world we have descended into. And yet, always there is hope. May the Lord bless our U.S. Olympians and all the others who compete for love of the game. Mr. Greenberg, your cynical, unredeeming criticism has tainted the gold and made their victory bittersweet.

I couldn't have said it better. . .
though I would've said more, given time and space. China's support of North Korea and the Khmer Rouge deserves at least passing comment, Mr. G. So does its own chronic, systematic enslavement and butchery. What is China's score in the _real_ genocide Olympics -- 40 million? 60 million? Can art, science, or God himself count the dead? Whatever their number, China has almost certainly outpointed the Soviet Union and the Third Reich _combined_ without help from its sanguinary client states.

The Olympics is a shabby spectacle, a convocation of tyrants, plutocrats, steroid freaks, and empty celebrities that legitimate polities should avoid and men and women of goodwill should condemn. Yes, it does offer the odd heartwarming story. So did the Warsaw Ghetto.

Reply #4
I am afraid that grammshart is indeed the last romantic. For years our Olympians were the few who could claim to truly be amateur athletes. The Soviet Union's athletes were considered professionals in the employ of the State. Other countries' professional footbal(soccer) stars "volunteered" to play. America stood as the shining example to the world...until 1992 when WE began using professional basketball players in the quest for gold. No, I am quite afraid the era of "for the love of the game" is long gone, and the money and political prestige gained by the host country is the only honest "quest for gold" left in the Olympics

No cigar for Greenberg.
I don't go for the idea of infusing politics into sports, especially the Olympics.

We trade with China.

China holds alot of our debt.

But having our athletes compete there would endorse genocide.

What crap.

This pompous posturing by Greenberg about a "genocide olympics" is absurd.

I am no fan of some of China's policies, but sanctimonious blather about a repressive regime hosting this event reminds me of the Jimmy Carter sanctimony in pulling the American team out of the olympics in protest of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Alot of good that did.

Greenberg opines on sports generally: "Divide kids into two different groups, give them different insignia and different loyalties, have them compete at games, and they'll promptly start snarling at each other".

If competition in sports is so evil, Paul, what do you propose?

Banning the game of tag on school yard campus?

Some little darlins' sense of self esteem might be injured.

These athletes have been working all their lives to get to the point of competing in the Olympics. And for Greenberg to cast an unsavory light on their possible contributions simply due to his moral outrage about the policies of the nation hosting the event, is pathetic.

On the issue of infusing politics into the Olympics, the 1968 event when U.S. winners of track and field displayed the Black Power salute was disgusting.

And Greenberg's column is little better.

An Olympics for Dissidents
It looks like it was a gigantic mistake for the Olympics Committee to schedule the games in China, still one of the most totalitarian countries in the world. Even China's rulers may be regretting their decision to have the games there because the Olympics games will illustrate that the 21st Century Potemkin village has been created in China. And it is difficult, even for the Chinese, to keep the lid on the boiling pot closed, silencing all those dissidents who, unbelievably, for a couple of weeks now have access to worldwide media.

Hey,
the Greeks started this stuff, and the Romans continued it, adding the gleefull mayhem Americans, and the world, seem to enjoy.

However, the Scots invented Golf (after, perhaps, the Dutch), and we who play Golf (the British Isles version of it, not the American)are the last gentlemen/sportsmen left. Well, a few gentlewomen/sportswomen are part of this too.

I thank God, and the gods, for keeping British Isles Golf, even the American version, out of the Olympics -- the snarling, cheating, chiseling (and crybaby) Olympics.

Congratulations to V. J. And we don't see Phil crying.

National Fans Union
The Olympics have turned into a joke with its mixture of professional and amateur athletes.

And speaking of professional athletes

I realize this is a pipe dream. There are too many tostesterone-soaked jocks out there who cannot possibly forestall the instant gratification of watching their professional sport of choice to make things better for everyone. And of course there are the businesses who have bought up a good portion of the season tickets. But nevertheless, I think that this nation could use a National Fans Union. The NFU, if you will.

Consider this.

A family of four must fork out over $350.00 to watch a three hour Boston Red Sox game at Fenway Park after paying $50.00 a ticket for grandstand seats, $60.00 for parking, $32.00 for two beers apiece for Mom & Dad, $20.00 for two sodas apiece for Bro & Sis, $5.00 for a program and $28.00 for a hot dog apiece and if little Johnny and Matilda want autographs, another $30 to $100.. That’s more expensive per hour than an entire day at Disney World for that same family of four.

If professional sports instantly disappeared, it would be but a small speed bump in the great scheme of things. It is entertainment. Nothing more. Athletes are making millions of dollars a year to play games. Owners are channeling your money to these players because they are as greedy as the players. Every year, because of nothing but outright greed, the prices of tickets for professional sports rise many times the rate of inflation. It happens because we let it.

If the fans boycotted but one professional sport for a year - no attendance, no watching it on TV, no magazines, no clothing and no videos - and let the media know precisely why, you’d see prices come tumbling down. You don’t have to put up with the unbelievable greed and price gouging of pro sports.

Join the National Fans Union.


If we are blessed
If we are truly blessed by a God, after the Olympics are over and the Olympic players and tourists have gone home, a giant sink-hole will open up under the seat of government in Beijing, and the entire despicable regime of "working class"-talking but mafia-behaving hypocrites will be sucked into the worst level of Dante's Inferno.
Nostradamus predicted it . . . I hope.

Good riddance to them!

Obama taxes increase Baseball Tickets
"The New York Yankees have a 2008 payroll of approximately $208 million. Under the twin Obama tax proposals, the 24 Yankee players would be hit with an aggregate increase in federal income taxes of just over $22 million, with slugger Alex Rodriguez single-handedly getting dunned with $2.6 million in additional federal taxes.

The owner of the Yankees would owe an additional $7.5 million of federal taxes.

Ticket prices would need to be increased by about $65 million so that the owner and players could have the same after-tax income as before.

The increase in ticket prices would amount to an average $16 per ticket. Given that the least-expensive ticket in Yankee Stadium currently is $14, this would more than double the cost of a seat in the bleachers."
By HANK ADLER
Chapman University accounting professor

Thank the US State Dept....for
their undying support of Mao. Read the History, it's available if you look carefully.
The State Dept Reds and useful Idiots managed to revive Mao and destroy our ally Chiang Kai-shek. The US State Dept was complicit with Chairman Mao in the democide of 50-100 million Chinese. Should the State Dept be held accountable?

Orwell was right
I like sports and I plan on watching the Olympics, but I agree the idea that it represents some sort of "bringing together" is hogwash.

I remember being shocked at the hostility I started developing toward the Australians--probably the most likeable people on earth--and their swim team during the Sydney games in 2000. And it's not like I even really care about competitive swimming.

And those Cold War era Olympics against the likes of the USSR and East Germany sure never left me with any warm fuzzy feelings.

It's nice to see
a different perspective on sports. I have never been into competitive sports myself. The whole idea that one person gets to be labeled the winner and everyone else is a loser has always put me off.

To me, the best kind of sport is one that pits me against myself. Working to improve your own personal best is challenging and always rewarding. Even if you don't do as well as you would like to, you can go away knowing that you put forth the effort and probably learned from your mistakes.

In grade school, particularly, I think competitive sports do more to damage a kid's self esteem than anything else. Sure one kid may get to be the star, but the cost to all the rest is hardly worth it.

To MSederoff
Your post clearly proves how the government school system of this country have succeeded in dumbing down our kids to be faceless little followers of the mediocrity mantra.

Woody from Iowa

Woody
Aww, go easy on MSederoff...I love competitive sports myself, and I don't have a problem with the concept of winners & losers.

But the experience I had with my daughter's Youth Basketball (ages 6-8) years ago bears out some of Sederoff's points--I could not believe the parents who thought their little Johnny was the next Michael Jordan (he wasn't, believe me), and how they would sit in the stands basically encouraging their kids to be ball hogs. I guess I should be grateful they weren't coaching the little brats to go for the flagrant fouls.

On the other hand, at the end of the season, they had this bogus awards banquet where every kid...and I mean EVERY kid...got a trophy. Even my daughter thought the whole thing was phony.

So while I agree with your observation about the mediocrity mantra ("it doesn't matter whether you excel, as long as you feel special!"), I can see where M Sederoff is coming from.

Paul
I am 36 years old and have no frame of reference in regards to the 1936 Olympics.This being the case,I find it quite "Offensive" for an American to castigate an event in the manner that you have chosen.There has been no more of a "Genocide" in China, than there has been in America.Let "US" try to be decent and honest at the same time,for once.Please...

A few things
First, killer there has been genocide in China that being Tibet--a wholesale cultural genocide. Now true what the Chinese have done in Tibet is not much different from what the Americans and Europeans did to the Native Americans and various other native groups all other the world, but to excuse China's actions because the Americans did it too rings rather hollow.

And Vaquero:

While it is true that there were (and are) Maoists in the State Department, and the US did throw Chiang under the bus in 1948 that guranteed Mao's victory, Chiang's regime on the mainland was incompetent and corrupt. He still saw himself as a military leader like he was during the Northern Expedition against the warlords and like LBJ in Vietnam micromanaged the war. He put more emphasis on holding the various provinical capitals that defeating the PLA. The PLA then simply cut off the KMT-held capitals and they eventually fell anyway.

His non-military policies such as support for the landlords, failure at land reform, etc doomed his regime. Runaway inflation, civil war and war with Japan for almost 20 years, a country basically destroyed by war and economic ruin, Chiang had little support. Even major KMT political and military members went over the CCP--e.g. Chen Yi--the first KMT governor of Taiwan. If Sun had lived and had been the leader of the KMT China's history would be much different today, but he died and a much lesser man took his place.

I remember
If I'm not mistaken, that there was an athlete who played Baseball(?) that had his medal taken back due to the fact that he played sandlot ball and had equipment bought for him or something to that effect. Now we have proffesionals playing Basketball in a sport that was supposed to be the worlds best amatures. The commitee should be taken out and shot.

If you are going to compare
Then this Olympics is more inline with Seoul 1988. In 1988 the ROK was a country with a booming economy--with growth in the double digits like China is today. It was also ruled as basically a one-party authoritarian state. The Gwangju uprising was only 8 years distance. Five years after the Olympics, the ROK had enacted democratic reforms and the two previous presidents who were responsible for the events leading to the Gwanju uprising were in prison for treason.

Now, will the PRC be fully democractic in 2013? Probably not, China is much pooer than the ROK was in 1988 and it's middle class much smaller, but this is the Olympics you need to compare the Beijing games to, not the 1936 games.


killer, for his less than ideals.......
Always the same. Bad mouthing anything and everything.

So the USA is just as bad as China.

Sure, in your warped mind little man.

Grow up or go away. Being 36 hasn't taught you anything except to tear down and obfuscate.

E Pluribus Unum.

Get with the program or crash out of Georgia.

Shish, where do we get characters like this.??.
.


Akagi(us) Idioticus
You can't compare South Korea to China. They are further apart than apples and oranges, ya dimwit.

China has much more in common with Nazi Germany than it could ever have with South Korea.

Go back to the history books, moron!

You think
"May the Lord bless our U.S. Olympians and all the others who compete for love of the game."

Those tattoed thugs from the NBA are doing it for the love of the game? I rather doubt many Chinese are doing it for the love of the game but rather to increase the glory of China. And they are not shy about cheating either. A stroy a few weeks ago saying how young the Chinese gymnasts and way below the minimum age set by the IOC, but China lies about their age. Of course we just had an American booted off the swim team for using performance enhancing drugs. I doubt many Americans are doing it just for the glory of the games either or even mainly for the glory of the games. Citius, Altius, Fortius...give me a break.




Idiots everywhere
Sergeant Slaughter:

I try not to answer idiots, but I often fail in this regard. The PRC today is very similar to both the ROK in the late 1980s as well as to Taiwan. Would you like a little history lesson in regards to what the ROK did and Taiwan as well before the democractic reforms in the late 1980s? Like me to discuss say the Kaohsiung riots in 1979 or the Gwanju uprising? Ever hear of a place called Green Island?

Is the ROK like the PRC today. Of course not you fool! Was the ROK much like China is today? Yes. Were they exactly the same? No, but they aren't the same country are they. But the PRC today shares much more in common with the ROK (or ROC for that matter) in 1988 than it does with Germany in 1936.

Of course being the idiot you are you know nothing about China or the ROK or even Nazi Germany. Go back to the WWE in your trailer and down a few more Buds why don't you.

grammshart
No, you are not the last of the romantics. I agree with you and dc. I’m also romantic enough to think that there is good in the world no matter how bad something (like China) can be. But more important, I like the no nonsense way jerabaub put it. The recent outbreak of Olympics bashing at TH seems to mimic the liberal style of thinking. If one doesn’t like the Olympics, fine. I will be cheering each time I see the Stars and Stripes raised and I will admire the effort of a great athlete no matter what the nationality.

Akagi
.
No one is going to out educate us more than you. It is obvious to any thinking person that while you, as we all do, have your biases, that your knowledge of the historic facts and happenings in most oriental countries is far superior to any likely poster here at Townhall.

I appreciate you most when you do stick with what you really know and can speak to clearly.
.

Hmmm...
Akagi, so I am guessing that by you saying the ROK of 1988 and China had a lot in common, I can only assume you mean the following:

the ROK of 1988 was run by a Communist Regime.

the ROK of 1988 had a cultural revolution in their past.

the ROK was not an American ally, and did not have American bases in their country.

The ROK did not allow personal freedoms of any kind, and ruled the country and the South Korean people with an iron fist.

Religion and religious groups were forbidden, so movements and churches like the Church of Sun Myung Moon were not allowed to be established.

Well, Akagi, on all of those points, you would be wrong.

I hope you did not mean to infer any of those point, because it really would make you out to be an idiot.

Paleocon
The US also supported the Khmer Rouge from 1979 onward as the US was opposed to the Vietnam-backed regime of Hun Sen.

Most of the millions of people cited as "killed by the PRC" actually died during the Great Chinese Famine of 1958-1961. It was mostly due to economic mismanagement but also due to crop failures. Officially it is known as the Three Years of Natural Diasters (san nian ziran zaihai) but often called the Great Famine (san nian da jihuang). Estimates may be as high as 50 million, but most put it between 20-30 million.

There were people murdered by the regime during the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen and of course Tibet, but most of those that are added to the totals weren't purposely killed. The Chinese Famine while man-made wasn't intentional like Stalin's one in the Ukraine in the 1930s. You can blame China for many things, but at least be fair in your criticism.

Jerseyvet:

China is no more totalitarian than say the ROK was in 1988. Today Chinese have more freedom than they have ever had, be it under the dynasties, the ROC or the PRC. It is far from being totalitarian. It is not Nazi Germany.

Speaking of Genocide

The Nazis are well remembered for murdering well over 11 million people in the implementation of their slogan, 'The public good before the private good'.

The Chinese Communists for murdering 62 million people in the implementation of their slogan, 'Serve the people'.

The Soviet Communists for murdering more than 60 million people in the implementation of Karl Marx's slogan, 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.

Obama and his destruction will be remembered 'Sacrifice for the Common Good'.


Meanwhile Obamas' glassy eyed cultic supporters chant 'Yes We Can'.

No, Sgt. Idiot.
No, but it was ruled by the authoritarian Democractic Justice Party which was similar to the CCP in that regard. Yes, the ROK in 1988 did allow more religious freedom than the PRC today. I am not saying that the ROK 1988 is EXACTLY the same as the PRC in 2008. I am saying it has more in common with the ROK 1988 than the Nazis in 1936.

It didn't have a Cultural Revolution which ended 32 years ago. Should I reference lynching of blacks in talking about the US as well? Ancient history, pal. And the most brutal aspects of the Wenhua Dageming ended 40 years ago. The ROK did have long periods of martial law, unlawful killings of political opponents of the regime, jailing of political opponents, and the Gwangju uprising.

As for being an American ally and having American bases. What does that have to do with anything? The US has been allies with and had bases in many authoritarian countries--just some of them would include the Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia (ally, no bases), the ROK, the RVN and on and on.

"The ROK did not allow personal freedoms of any kind, and ruled the country and the South Korean people with an iron fist."

There is a great deal of personal freedom in the PRC today--greater for the average Chinese than ever in the history of China. You need to break out of the amber and see China as it is not as you imagine it to be--this is not 1958 or 1968 or even 1988, but 2008. Is China a bastion of freedom? No, but it isn't a totalitarian black hole either as many like to paint it.


But they didn't
"The Chinese Communists for murdering 62 million people in the implementation of their slogan, 'Serve the people'."

Most of that number come from the san nian ziran zaihai While the Chinese government did indeed murder people, the 40 million or so that died from starvation weren't.

Genocide and Democrats

Democrats have a long history of being ok with genocide.
------------------------------------------------
July 2007 "Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there."
------------------------------------------------
Lesley Stahl on CBS's 60 Minutes.

Madeleine Albright When asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq:

"We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it."
------------------------------------------------
Samantha Power was rightfully awarded the Pulitzer for her finely written and downright horrifying book "A Problem From Hell" which, in macabre detail, describes the calculated indifference of the Clinton administration when 800,000 Rwandans were being systematically butchered. The red phone rang and rang and rang again. I don't know where Hillary was then. But her husband and his entire experienced foreign policy team - from the brass in the Pentagon to the congenitally feckless Secretary of State Warren Christopher - just let it ring.

Akagi
You would attempt to win your argument via the parsing of words, by semantical gymnastics. PRC is a totalitarian nation. That is the issue. The issue is not "compared to whom?" What, really is the definition of a "totalitarian black hole" anyway? The issue is a question of whether the PRC should endure the full accusation of her crimes, in the precise way that the US has endured them from a free press for centuries under the protection of her constitution. The similarities between Nazi Germany and today's PRC are greater than the differences, by the way.

really, Jerabaub
"I don't go for the idea of infusing politics into sports, especially the Olympics."

How about this for politics then. Taiwan is unable to use its official name the Republic of China but the name of a country that has never existed--Chinese--Taipei (Zhonghua--Taibei). Now the PRC wants to make it use China--Taipei (Zhongguo--Taibei) and claim it is a part of China. If China does this, Taiwan will boycott the games.

Instead of the ROC colors, it must display this instead:

http://www.fotw.net/flags/tw@sport.html#oli

A white flag with a red and blue outline of the Mei-Hua Plum flower and inside the outline the Olympic rings and on top the white 12-pointed sun in a circle of blue--the KMT symbol and also part of the canton of the ROC national flag.

Instead of having its national anthem played, it has to play some Olympic song when Taiwan wins medals--okay rare I know outside of baseball and table tennis but it is the principle.

One of the most idiotic displays was last years LLWS on ESPN. When batters from Taiwan would be up ESPN would show their names, ages, etc and their hometown as Taichung, Chinese Taipei. I'm not sure if it was the idiots at the LLWS that made this happen or if it was ESPN. Please find me a map with "Chinese Taipei" on it.

Oh if the Olympics vanished tomorrow, I'd shed no tears.


Mindless comparisons by mindless people
"PRC is a totalitarian nation."

It is not and there are few things that makes the PRC like Nazi Germany again unless you want to also say Taiwan, the ROK, Indonesia, Malaysia, the RVN, and on and on and on were too. Most people with brains would reject that position. Should there be a free press in China, sure. But why don't you examine the case of Formosa Magazine (Meilidao Zazhi) circa 1979 sometime.

The freedoms most Chinese have today are far far removed from the conditions of Nazi Germany. To compare the two is mindless.

So retired geek
"The red phone rang and rang and rang again. I don't know where Hillary was then. But her husband and his entire experienced foreign policy team - from the brass in the Pentagon to the congenitally feckless Secretary of State Warren Christopher - just let it ring."

You think it should be US policy to stop genocide no matter where it happens even if such country is of no interest to the US? So say there is genocide in...say the Solomon Islands, should the US send troops to stop it? Should the US send troops to the Sudan? How about Tibet? If not, why is Rwanda different? Was Ford (a member of the GOP) wrong to not send troops to stop Pol Pot? Was the US wrong to support Pol Pot in 1979 because he was anti-Hun Sen?

How did you determine that?

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 12
Date: Aug 4, 2008 - 10:46 AM EST
Idiots everywhere
Sergeant Slaughter:

I try not to answer idiots, but I often fail in this regard.

==========

Well since it takes one to recognize one, that’s a little hard to believe.

For that reason, I won’t give my opinion of you.

Jim
You proved to me long ago that you are a senile old fool and too bad my friends in the IJN didn't smoke you when they had the chance. Oh well, the fortunes of war, eh?


Those were the good old days

Bob_C Location: MA
Reply # 27
Date: Aug 4, 2008 - 6:31 AM EST

Subject: National Fans Union
=============

Concerning your note on the cost to see a ball game.

I can remember that about 50 years ago I took my family to Dodger Stadium on a Saturday night, a few times a year.

In those days the Angels also played at the Stadium, and we were such fans that we didn’t know which home team was playing, let alone which visiting team. It was just a night out.

As I remember, parking was $1. We got there early enough to park just a few spots from the entrance high above home plate. We loved the view from those seats, you could see the whole game, as well as the spectators, who often “played” a more exciting “game” than the ball team.

Saturday night, in those days before PC feminists were in charge was ladies night and tickets for my Sweetie and my daughter cost .50¢ each, and my son and I paid $1.50. A family night out for $5.

We ate dinner at home, and maybe brought a snack with us, so seldom paid for Dodger’s Dogs. If you remember, when it was first opened, there were no drinking fountains at Dodger Stadium.

Oh and by the way, from what little I see on TV and read in the paper, the Dodger Players in those days, and their ability to play the game, were much better than today.
=========

And speaking of no water fountains:

When we were first married, we lived in a one room apartment in Asbury Park, NJ.

The Army only paid me around $100 or so a month, so I had to have a part-time job, popping corn at a race track, to help pay the bills.

There were no water fountains at the race track, only beer and soft drinks for sale.

When the beer and soft drink salesmen went past the pop corn machine, they would holler, “More salt, more salt.”

People's mouths would pucker with each bite of popcorn.
(Asbury Park, NJ 1951)


what is the IJN?


Akagi Location: GA


Reply # 1
Date: Aug 4, 2008 - 12:20 PM EST
Subject: Jim
You proved to me long ago that you are a senile old fool and too bad my friends in the IJN
==========

Hey Stupie, what is the IJN?

Akagi
If we are to use a "Historical Context" for this discussion,every country in the world fits the allegation.My point is that now is now,can't we please stay in the present and move on.None is perfect, we have all fallen short.

Killer
Now is now. The Chinese TODAY are engaged in genocide in Tibet. I agree bringing up the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen, etc should be left in the past and to compare China today to what China did in say 1958 or 1966 or 1989 is simply mindless. Much of Greenberg's article is simply idiotic. To compare the PRC today to either the Nazis (1936) or the Soviets (1980) shows a very great lack of understanding--of the Nazis, of the Soviets and of China 2008.

But to point out what China is doing today--that's fair game. Tibet, their one-child policy, the taking of peasant and the urban poor's land to make way for condos and office parks, the corruption, over taxation of the peasants, the abuse of prisoners including wholescape rape of female prisoners, organ harvesting, the crack down on the Falun dafa, its policies toward Taiwan, etc and you can't correctly compare what China does today to the US today. This is not ancient history, this is today.

jim writes:
Reply # 1
Date: Aug 4, 2008 - 12:20 PM EST
Subject: Jim
You proved to me long ago that you are a senile old fool and too bad my friends in the IJN
==========

Hey Stupie, what is the IJN?

The Imperial Japanese Navy

Akagi
What is the policy on "Reproduction" in main land China.Also,I am not trying to confuse the current conditions in either country.This is the time for the "Olympics".If we and the world had a problem with China and it's human rights policies, why did we award them the Olympics?This is what happens when you handle your financial affairs poorly.We can't play hardball with China because we owe them our Life.That's our fault,so stop with the "Sour Grapes".All of what you have described,is also happening in places other than China.To the extent that we are successful in these other places,we will be successful in China.

Oh and Paul
Huan Ying Guang Lin is a more common greeting than simply huan ying or even could use huan ying nin lai zhongguo. I think saying "Welcome to the new capitalized, commercialized, cosmeticized and no longer so Communist China" might be a little clunky in Chinese..."huan ying nin lai zibenjia, huanghua de, xianzai bushi gongchan de xin zhongguo." Doesn't exactly roll off your tongue now does it?


Killer
The current policy in the PRC is a one-child policy, except in the case of the rural areas where the family can have a second child if the first child is a girl. At some point they claim they will reverse this policy but for now it stands. Force abortions and sterilizations are not unheard of as well as other punitive steps if such policy is violated.

Who is we? The IOC gave them the Olympics. Beijing applied for the games to be held in 2000 (announced in 1993). The First round Bejing led Sydney and the lowest city (Istanbul) removed from contention, second round it lead 37-30 (with Berlin now removed), third round it lead 40-37 (with Manchester removed) and the final round Sydney passing Beijing to win the games 45-43. In 2001, the first round had Beijing over Toronto (who lost to Atlanta in 1996) 44-20, in the second round Osaka was removed and China was over Toronto 56-22, since the other cities Paris and Istanbul only had 27 votes, even if all went to Toronto Beijing would still have a majority of the votes and thus the voting ended after the second round and Beijing got the games.

So who is "we" exactly? The US doesn't give the games to anyone or per se the west. It is the IOC.

Akagi, hey stupie


I asked what the IJN was, and someone who could read told me it was the The Imperial Japanese Navy. Well I never got to see them, and they never go to see me. They were long gone by the time I arrived in the So Pac, and were back in their cesspool sewer, where they belonged. Well I would prefer they had been given a half-way ticket home.

I just wish we had a few more Atom Bombs, and we could have solved more of that problem.

Especially those who were the lovers of Nanking, and raped and killed three times as many as were eliminated by our two bombs.

I have not, and will not buy a Jap car until they at least admit to Nanking, even if they don’t apologize for it.


Akagi

Akagi (Aircraft Carrier, 1927-1942).

Akagi, a 34,364-ton aircraft carrier, - - -On 4 June 1942, while operating northward of Midway, Akagi was hit by dive bombers from USS Enterprise (CV-6) and set afire. Damage control efforts were unsuccessful,

And I hope you suffer the same fate. How dare you take a name to celebrate a ship that killed our men at Pearl Harbor.

========

This sounds like you.

When we visited Pearl Harbor in 1968, there was an unfortunate occurrence on the ferry boat that took us to the Arizona Memorial. Two elderly men, from an unnamed country, far west of Hawaii, were making funny gestures and apparently making jokes in their foreign language. Someone (not me) reported this to the guards at the memorial, who firmly let those two men know that if they didn’t stop what they were doing, they most likely wouldn’t make it back to shore. They stopped the nonsense, right then and there.


Actually Jim
Akagi is a mountian in Gunma Prefecture, north and west of Tokyo. If someone writes as "Arizona" should I say "why are you named for a rusting hulk at the bottom of Pearl Harbor?"

Here Jim--take a look.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/ohirune/yk/annai/sanzan/akagi.htm

Pretty ain't it?

Hey, Jim, I suggest you get rid of your computer since I am pretty sure many parts in it are made in Japan. Oh and no such thing really as a Japanese car Jim. Toyota is no more Japanese than GM is American--both international corporations with no loyality to anything but profit and their stockholders. Toyota and Lexus? If I recall every one sold in North America are built in North America, built by Americans in places like Kentucky and Indiana.

I remember Tianamen Square
I do remember Tianamen square. I don't know how anyone can forget how the U.S. completely ignored the hunting down and imprisonment/death of the student leaders. China is nothing more than a lying dumb thug which hasn't contributed one meaningful idea or invention to the world in centuries. It's given us slave labor for cheap products. It's an immoral and dead culture with nothing to offer so it steals from everyone. It does strongly mirror Nazi Germany in many of its practices like human drug testing, harvesting of human organs, forced abortion and sterilization and other outrageous crimes against its own citizens.

How that country obtained MFN status is another outrage. We should tar and feather the responsible parties then post their heads on spikes outside the Capital as a warning to those who get in bed with evil.

No longer 1989
"I don't know how anyone can forget how the U.S. completely ignored the hunting down and imprisonment/death of the student leaders."

And how would the US have done anything different? It cut off military contacts and barred the sell of items that could be used by the military. Would taking away MFN (something almost every country on earth got from the US) helped the average citizen of the PRC? You know there is no such thing as MFN as it relates to China. Replaced by NPTR in 2000 and now China is in the WTO. When MFN was seriously under threat, Chris Patten (heard of him perhaps?) stated how bad an idea of taking MFN would be and he was hardly a big fan of the PRC government.

"It's given us slave labor for cheap products."

While you may not think working for $75 USD (say 600 RBM a month) as all that great, it is far from slave labor. The average worker in China in say places like Guangdong bring in around $2000 a year, around Shanghai much more. Of course, yes, if you are out in the hinterlands of Sichuan you'll make much less. But hardly slave labor.

"It's an immoral and dead culture with nothing to offer so it steals from everyone."

Oh and I guess Zhang Ziyi and a host of others in both the movie and music scene don't exist, how about Yanghuiyen? If it is a dead culture, many Americans and other have no problems wanting to experience it.

Akagi writes:
Actually Jim
Akagi is a mountian in Gunma Prefecture, north and west of Tokyo. If someone writes as "Arizona" should I say "why are you named for a rusting hulk at the bottom of Pearl Harbor?"

Well isn't the Akagi a rusting hulk on the botoom of the Pacific near Midway?

BTW: If you love Japan so much, why not move there.....permanently.

LJ
It is just as the Arizona is at Pearl. Sadly the Akagi has yet to be found. The Yorktown and the Kaga have been though.






Akagi You're Wrong
Of course it isn't 1989, however you're statement that the past is the past and somehow magically has no bearing on present circumstances is ridiculous and naive. Every policy we have is a direct result of what has come before. The U.S. treatment of China is schizophrenic - military enemy but trading friend. It's cognitive dissonance that cannot be sustained long-term. It wouldn't be the first time Washington, D.C. has figuratively put a gun to the head of the country and tried to pull the trigger.

Our consistent justification for increased trade with China has been a distorted notion that somehow a thriving, open economy in the PRC would result in a demand for more personal and political freedoms. Well, Akagi, we see that it did result in just such a thing - and that was Tianamen Square. That demand for personal and political freedom by young Chinese resulted in swift and harsh crackdowns - something the U.S. should have, but didn't consider. I guess our addiction to cheap imports obfuscated the simple truth that we were and are wrong. You can't put the cart before the horse. You cannot achieve political freedom after economic freedom. The U.S. should have immediately contracted its trading with that nation. It's not as though there aren't any number of third world nations with whom we could have created the same economic wonder. I don't care how much people are paid in one region relative to another region, but I do care that workers have no rights. That's slave labor.


Akagi You're Wrong Again
I stand by my statement that China's culture is dead and immoral. You offer movies as sign of thriving culture? It is precisely because Americans haven't taken to such poor imitations of what Americans do far better (movies) that the Chow Yun Fat's of the world have returned to China. Their movies are empty shells - beautiful but superficial. They lack any depth of feeling, plot or themes, ostensibly due to state control of all content. You haven't even addressed the state control of such industries and its impact on the quality of the "art" produced.

Any culture which represses the means by which its culture is disseminated, even low or mass cultural institutions like movies, is by definition...immoral. The right to freely express oneself without repercussions by the state is a bedrock principle of liberty worldwide. I'm sorry for you that you don't seem to understand the issues here.

PBS had a documentary
about Red China. The most interesting line was the one that the communist party told the people that "it is good to be entrepreneurs and to get rich". The result is that there are now many billionaires in Red China.
At the same time, the American Communist Party (the democrats) is doing everything it can to prevent Americans from making any profit all all, followed by taking half of it as taxes.

Akagi
I did not know that we were debating at the "Lower" rung.My statement was made in the "Context" that IOC,a sanctioned organization had made the award.If memory serves me correctly,the US is a dues paying member with many other countries.I was operating under the misguided assumption, that there was a point to be made.I don't try to protect anyone's politics,not even my own!!!

The highlight of
the Olympics for many may sadly be our American President waving and smiling to the billions watching the opening ceremonies and yelling at the top of his lungs, "Comrades, I'm here, don't call the loans!"

Ron
China is #2 on the list of billionaires--only the US has more.t was Deng Xiao-ping who coined the phrase in China, it is glorious to become rich.

And now for you, Alecto:

"The U.S. treatment of China is schizophrenic - military enemy but trading friend. It's cognitive dissonance that cannot be sustained long-term. It wouldn't be the first time Washington, D.C. has figuratively put a gun to the head of the country and tried to pull the trigger."

The US doesn't cosider China to be a military adversary. Many warn against trying to make China into one.

"Our consistent justification for increased trade with China has been a distorted notion that somehow a thriving, open economy in the PRC would result in a demand for more personal and political freedoms."

And it has resulted in exactly that. Chinese today are more free than they ever have been--ever! And the justification was not to give Chinese more freedom but to bind China to the international regime instead of it wanting to overturn that regime as previous rising powers had done. The last time there was a rising Asian power, the powers like the US didn't handle it all that well--the results were not exactly pleasant--for anyone.




Alecto
Please list all the Chinese language movies you have seen in your life.

Second, Yang Huiyen is no actress.

Killer
Okay I read read your post which reads like a person on crack, but here goes.

"All of what you have described,is also happening in places other than China."

True. But the Sudan isn't hosting the games--Beijing is. Again, the US didn't award anything to anyone. Stop using we. The IOC did and I am not a member of the IOC...are you?




Welcome to the real World China.........
Early today or late yesterday, in the far western districts of China. Islamic Terrorists attempted to cross the boarder into China, inroute to Bejing. When their papers where challanged they let lose with grenades and 16 Chinese Boarder police were killed. As also was reported, the terrorists where destroyed.
Either way China now feels what it is like to be treated with no respect or as an enemy of Allah.
Akagi of GA, three Chinese lang. films.

so, where were conservatives in favor of
So, where were conservatives in favor of the US boycotting the Olympics? As a liberal, I would have had no problem with that at all. China's Tibetan policy should be enough for conservative and liberal Americans to want to deny China the legitimacy and money that goes with having the US and other wealthy nations present for the Olympics. What if there had been a serious movement in Congress to presure Bush to boycott? I don't recall much of anything out there in conservative-land (or among my fellow liberals, for that matter), to say no to China's totalitarian state. I guess everybody now agree that the Olympics aren't even important enough to boycott.

Butcher
China now feels? China has been subject to the unrest in Xinjiang for decades. In the 1990s they even blew up a bus in Beijing. In short the Uighurs feel oppressed by the Han and the PRC government and would like to see an independent Xinjiang (and perhaps slices of places like Qinghai, Gansu, etc).

The unrest has more to do with a desire to be free of Beijing rule than any links to Jihadism.

Some of the Uighurs trained in Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan before 9/11. No suprise here, but also no suprise that the PRC plays up the terrorist risks and Uighur links to terrorists in order to justify their often brutal policies in Xinjiang. The attack was in Xinjiang--Xinjiang Zizhi Qu. The Zizhi Qu meaning self-autnomous region, but like Tibet there is really little autonomy, thus lies the problem there.

Akagi 6 the rest 0......................
I feel for you guy. Trying to educate the literate college grad is never going to be accomplished. They read it in a book somewhere by some one that they never met before. Second Sgt Slaughter and a few of the others here forget that only Jesus walks on water, for the rest its tread as best you can.
I have had these 'discussions' to no prevail before with them.
As my mum would say, 'You cannot tell a person that knows it all, anything. They already know that!'

Missed the point guy....................
Akagi
Location: GA
Reply # 65
Date: Aug 4, 2008 - 5:41 PM EST Butcher
China now feels? China has been subject to the unrest in Xinjiang for decades. In the 1990s they even blew up a bus in Beijing. In short the Uighurs feel oppressed by the Han and the PRC government and would like to see an independent Xinjiang (and perhaps slices of places like Qinghai, Gansu, etc).
I know about internal, but this is first I have heard of an external threat to them. It still must come as a shock, considering Bejings quiet support to so many of these Terrorist groups. To have one come back and bite that hand that supports them. And Last I heard before going to work was it was Islamic and not internal terrorists.

Akagi
Do you really think that those conditions only exist in China and the Sudan.I have overestimated your level of knowledge.Also,please don't try to insult me,you can't.An insult can only be delivered by someone you respect.I don't even know you.Thanks...

Boycotting the Olympics.................
Dumb, really dumb. You loose face and what about the dreams you shatter. No In 1935, FDR was asked to boycot the Olympics in Berlin, Germany for how Hitler was treating the Jews.
He (FDR) did not like the Jews any better than the average American did in 1935, and Germans where a vast portion of the American Population then, plus we knew very little about the Death Camps.
The Olympics are more than games and if anyone tells you different, they only talk about how well they know politics.

Akagi, 1106
"The US also supported the Khmer Rouge from 1979 onward. . . ."

Under Carter, a one-term embarrassment.

"Most of the millions of people cited as 'killed by the PRC' actually died during the Great Chinese Famine of 1958-1961. It was mostly due to economic mismanagement. . . .Estimates may be as high as 50 million, but most put it between 20-30 million."

First, quibbling over the exact number of millions killed denotes a weak argument. Second, you split very fine hairs. I know of no instrument able to separate those "killed by the PRC" and those killed in consequence of official PRC actions, including "economic mismanagement."

The difference seems meaningless. The Khmer Rouge didn't shoot all who perished under their rule. But those routed from the cities who later died of exposure, overwork, disease, and malnutrition are as nonetheless dead, and the Khmer Rouge are nonetheless reponsible.

"There were people murdered by the regime. . .but most. . .weren't purposely killed. The Chinese Famine while man-made wasn't intentional like Stalin's. . . ."

Again, the distinctions seem meaningless. The results of malice, apathy, and ineptitude are the same. Whatever their failing, those tyrants arrogated the power that produced those results. By taking control, tyrants take responsibility.

"You can blame China for many things, but at least be fair in your criticism."

I blame _China_ for nothing; it is a victim. I blame the tyrants running the PRC for things that deserve blame, however, and I recant not a word.

"Today Chinese have more freedom than they have ever had. . . ."

Their ration of freedom is still paltry.

"It is not Nazi Germany."

But it has been as bad within living memory. Unlike the Third Reich, it still exists. Moreover, the direct successors of its recent genocidal tyrants are in power today.

Oops
In my previous post, I wrote, "But those routed from the cities who later died of exposure, overwork, disease, and malnutrition are as nonetheless dead. . . ." Please strike "as" and make allowances for any other errors that I haven't spotted. Against my better judgment, I was trying to type while conversing with someone in the room.

Jim
While at times I agree with you, the wet cut was uncalled for as you nor I know for sure whether Akagi is a legal citizen or not. I know how hard it is not to use the phrase as he sounds a lot of times like he hates the U.S. I believe something has made him this way, like a relative not being able to immigrate or something to that effect. It still doesn't excuse the hatred he spews.

Red China's Olympic Slogan
I thought that "One World One Dream" was Obama's slogan!

Who's plagarizing whom, here?

Due to this Olympics
being hosted by China, I have no desire to watch any of it. What knuckleheads thought China would be a good place to host this?

Commie Common Ground
Welcome Americans, you people who train your cops to be like the military! We Chi-coms love that!!

Welcome Americans, your national prisons are virtual rape rooms better than anything we have come up with! We could learn from you because your judges and lawyers send men to prison knowing ahead of time they will be raped!

Welcome Americans, your leaders are committing white genocide through immigration. We like that as much as the genocide we are committing in Tibet.

Welcome Americans, you are just like us!!

Chinese Movies
Alecto,

No disrespect intended, but, while acknowledging that you may simply have a different taste in art and movies from some of the rest of us, (nothing wrong with that) if you really believe that Chinese movies "lack any depth of feeling, plot or themes", then I would suggest that you have not been exposed to a very WIDE VARIETY of Chinese films, or the traditional Chinese literature, on which, many of those films are based.
Along with the exquisite actress Gong Li, others, like Zhang Ziyi and Chow Yun Fat are renowned all over the world for their work, and have won many international awards.
I am NOT a fan of the Chinese regime. It is certainly true that China is NOT "democratic", as we understand the term. However, by any OBJECTIVE measure, there have been some legislative and legal improvements over the last 20 years that have made the Chinese government's control of the arts significantly LESS stringent than it used to be . . . even though the regime still has a lot of progress to make in that area.
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