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Wednesday, April 16, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Time Warp: Different War, Same Question
by Paul Greenberg
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One of the most dedicated, determined and talented American leaders - yes, they still make that kind - was called to testify last week before the diverse collection of politicos known as the Senate Armed Services Committee. Its members wanted to hear from General David Petraeus, the American commander in Iraq who is carrying out a strategy he himself largely devised: the Surge.

Since his last appearance before this committee, including three potential commanders-in-chief, there has been a far from complete but striking change for the better in Iraq. The idea of victory in that war has gone from forlorn hope to increasing possibility. In war, as an American general named MacArthur once said, there is no substitute for victory. And that includes the current euphemism for defeat, Exit Strategy.

When this same committee grilled the general last September, Hillary Clinton told him it would take "a willing suspension of disbelief" to credit what he was saying about American prospects in Iraq. In another sign of how much things have changed in half a year, the junior senator from New York did not repeat that cynical sound bite in these hearings. Though if, despite the odds, she turns out to be the next Democratic presidential nominee, the country will surely be treated to numerous playbacks of it sponsored by the Republican National Committee.

The general's current, cautious progress report evoked varied reactions from the committee. Some senators offered profusive, indeed embarrassing, praise. Others engaged in the kind of cynical jabs that have come to be the hallmark of those ambitious pols who have bet their future advancement on an American defeat in Iraq. (Even if they initially supported the American commitment there. See Clinton, Hillary Rodham.)

Listening to General Petraeus respond with unwavering dignity and measured deference to both praise and blame from the committee's different members, the mind drifted. I couldn't help wondering what the conversation would have been like if another American commander at another embattled time, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, had been summoned home to answer the same sort of questions at another crucial moment in American history - in the midst of the Battle of the Bulge.

Thanks to the magic of the Apocryphal Press, a news service of my own invention and imagination, here is how the Q & A would have gone if moved back in time to the turn of the year 1945, when the outcome of the momentous conflict then under way in Europe and the Pacific was still undecided.

Only names, places, dates and the war have been changed. The rest of the quotes are taken almost intact from the transcript of last week's hearings. The spirit of the exchange between an American general and his interlocutors, among them three presidential candidates this election year, has been fully retained:

General Eisenhower (Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force): "There has been significant but uneven security progress in the Ardennes. As of the end of December 1944, our casualties have been reduced substantially . . . . The situation in certain areas is still unsatisfactory, and innumerable challenges remain. Moreover, as events in the past two weeks have reminded us, and as I have repeatedly cautioned, the progress made since last spring is fragile and reversible." Senator John McCain, (R-Ariz.): "We're no longer staring into the abyss of defeat and we can now look ahead to the genuine prospect of success . . . . I do not want to keep our troops in France a minute longer than necessary to secure our interests there. Our goal, my goal, is a France that no longer needs American troops. And I believe we can achieve that goal, perhaps sooner than many imagine." Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY): "For the past four years, we have continually heard from the administration that things are getting better, that we're about to turn a corner, that there is finally a resolution in sight. Yet each time, our allies fail to deliver. I think it's time to begin an orderly process of withdrawing our troops, start rebuilding our military, and focusing on the challenges posed in the Pacific." Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.): "Nobody's asking for a precipitous withdrawal, but I do think that it has to be a measured but increased pressure, and a diplomatic surge that includes Germany. Because if France can tolerate as normal neighbor-to-neighbor relations with Germany, then we should be talking to them as well. I do not believe we're going to be able to stabilize the situation without them."

--------

When this same committee grilled General Petraeus last year, Senator McCain delivered the most concise summary of what these hearings are all about. It still holds:

"General Petraeus and his troops ask just two things of us: the time to continue this strategy, and the support they need to carry out their mission. They must have both."

Or has that become too much ask of this America? We shall see.

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Comparing Iraq to the Civil War
Not a good comparison. The South started that war with the bombardment of Fort Sumter. Lincoln had no time to plan on what Generals would lead. After a few months he did find out McClellan was a poor General in Chief and transfered him to the army of the Potomac. It took Lincoln months not years to make adjustments to fight the South.

Bush, on the other hand had all the time in the world and made poor decisions on how to lead and on how to adjust to the enemies changing tactics.

As far as Victory, we celebrated it back in April 2003. If that wasn't victory then what is victory, being in the middle of a three way civil war between groups that have hated each other for over 1000 years? Check up on your history, occupiers of countries have never faired well against guerilla warfare.

Define Victory ..................
The war in Iraq is rapidly becoming like the War I fought, Vietnam.
Many people, mostly news people, say `WE' lost that war, our vets lost the war. BS We did not `lose' a thing, except our insight on when to pack it in and seek a peace.
Out troops never lost a battle, or a city to the VC/NVA forces. We bloodied them in the fields, in the minds and hearts of their soldiers. When they fought us, they where thankful the fighting ended. They prayed and sang chants. They were demoralized because their propaganda failed them.
That is Iraq in a nut shell, and our Administration does not want another `Vietnam' syndrome lose. Get that word out of the context please, to withdraw from a civil conflict between similar peoples is not defeat it is sound military judgement. To stay and see our boys/girls die for nothing, is a bigger defeat than a withdrawl. The War should have never taken place, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda should have remained our sole intended target, but it wasn't that way. now get out before we bleed more for a bunch of people that hate us anyway.

The situtation in Iraq
As I've said before, the situation in Iraq changed on the day that the deadline for provincial elections was announced. This fall, especially in the south, Iraqis voters will be the ultimate judges of the conditions on the ground in Iraq. Maliki's coalition is wildly unpopular, and if they are voted out in the south there goes the ball game, success of the 'surge' or no. Instead of resting on our laurels regarding the success of the surge, we need to focus on the politics, and give voters, particularly those in the south, a reason to reinstate Maliki's local reps.

For Dave & Blackcherokee
Black Cherokee writes: "It took that long for the President to find the man who actually knew how to fight that kind of war."


Why take a nation to war without providing proper leadership, guidance and direction to ensure swift victory, stabiity in Iraq and security for the U.S.? On that score I refer you to the following URL:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8. html

As you can see, In Pres. Bush's Oct. 7, 2002 speech, "President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat," Mr. Bush promised the American people that before he took the United States to war, he would "plan carefully."

Furthermore, the President promised the American people that when he took us to war he would employ the FULL MIGHT of the military.

The above assurances and most of the objectives set forth on 10/7/02, have not been realized. Even though the President had FIVE MONTHS to put his battle and subsequent rehabilitation plans in place.

The lives and wellbeing of our military depend on how carefully leadership plans and executes strategies so that we incur minimal casualties. And when plans for combat and occupation are so lacking they impact adversely on the lives and wellbeing of our fighting forces, that is totally unacceptable.

It's my opinion that the conflict in Iraq consists of TWO wars. War #1, from 2003-2006 was, as William F. Buckley, Jr. wrote, "a failure," which made necessary War #2, being conducted intelligently and professionally by Gen. David Petraeus, War #2, while showing progress, is a heroic attempt to set War #1 right. But is it feasible to "finish it up"?

What we have to decide now is whether to put at risk more of our military while we continue to use up our resources with no positive end in sight.
It's takes just as much courage to wind down sensibly as it does to rev it up.


remember when this started
the plan was that we would go in take out Saddam leave Chalabi to rally the iraqis and set up a democratic Government. Then they would use their oil money to rebuild the damage. Suckered in weren't we. . Now instead of Saddam's henchmen making the lives of Iraqi's miserable, we have insurgents, NOT al Queda, that is plunging the country into a civil war. We are running up a deficit that is going put this country under if it is not addressed. And that does not include the cost of rebuilding the army, replacing equipment. and providing medical care for the wounded. Just how much is the US willing to put up for a country that is a basket case, A country that is so corrupt that is drains off all its OIL wealth for the wealthy few and does not take care of its own citizens. We are shouldering the total cost of this war to save their buts and while they are squandering their vast and considerable wealth. Its not about winning, Its about getting out of there with the least additional pain.

Blackcherokee & nmi
Blackcherokee - thanks for the additional clarification.

nmi - your 4:10 response to my previous post contains some legitimate points.

Many of Wm Buckley's articles just prior to his death were questioned by many conservatives. At the same time, he was recognized as the "voice of conservatism". I remember reading his tome about "Bush's failure", and I remember being a little confused about it. Although the article details have escaped me (and learning what I now know), I believe he was referring to the conduct of the war.

I've posted before that Bush FAILED to expand the combat to other terrorist areas, that he mistakenly "finished" the job the Sr. Bush failed to do, and that the CG - Gen. Tommy - failed to gather sufficient troops, equip., etc, needed for total WOT.

Having said that, I am NOT in disagreement with the other TH writers you mention. What I DO disparage is those people who claim the war cannot be won, that the surge is not working, and that we should just get out of Iraq. Mark my words, the cost of doing that will be more destructive (both at home and abroad) than remaining to finish the job now.

Your comments?

nmi writes:12:06 PM: Why did it take....
..... FOUR YEARS?
The answer has been almost completely given by dave; however, there is one small addition!
===============================================================
While many deride Rumsfeld, he was wonderful at his "Primary Hire" task and that was the down-sizing and modernization of the military. He was only mediocre at fighting the WOT and the war in Iraq (not really separable, but since most do I will). He did, however change the Commanding General(s) in the theatre in toto and Iraq in specificity. Many don't know (or won't admit) that General Petraeus was most visible on Rumsfeld's radar and was probably to be his next change. Gates came in and made the actual change.

Let me add to (or answer) your question: Why did the Civil War (war of Northern aggression) take four years to find a Commanding General who could actually fight the war in the Eastern theatre?

Answer: (same for both wars)-- it took that long for the President to find the man who actually knew how to fight that kind of war. Grant was Lincoln's man and Petraeus is Bush's man. In the fighting of war, IMHO, Bush is easily the equivalent of Lincoln in tenacity and leadership!

TBC ~:>{)

For Dave re Iraq fortunes
You write: "terrorists' most dependable allies" are "Dem/Lib pols who gleefully seek America's defeat."


More than two years ago Town Hall columnist and Conservative leader, the late William F. Buckley, Jr., a supporter and admirer of Pres. Bush declared the Iraq War to be "Pres. Bush's failure. Certainly Buckley could not be considered a liberal nor could he have been accused of seeking America's defeat. He rendered his opinion as he saw it.

On March 20, 2008, Town Hall columnist Cliff May wrote: "One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled."

May also wrote "The result of so many errors and misjudgments was catastrophic." It was not said in glee, but written objectively and sadly.

Re the surge, Town Hall columnist Steve Chapman has written: "...the surge has yet to produce the dramatic overall progress that its supporters envisioned at the start."

Town Hall columnist Dinesh D'Souza last year wrote that "Bush sometimes reminds me of the toy soldier who walks into the wall and keeps going."

Among others, Sen. Chuck Hagel, Congressman Ron Paul, TV commentator Pat Buchanan -- all Conservative Republicans -- have been severely critical of the Iraq. War. No one would accuse them of being Dem/Libs nor of rooting for the United States to be defeated.

Town Hall columnist and National Review Editor Rich Lowry put it best when after the Katrina debacle he wrote: "A vigorous blame game is still the only way to keep government failures from being conveniently ignored."

american infantry division?
another poster that knows nothing of military stated " those rag tag "insurgents" have destroyed an American infantry division."

4000 dead Americans, spread over 5 years, is a high price but an American Infantry Division is over 10000 soldiers. in my opinion they only died in vain if the cowards back home pull us out to soon. We are fighting evil islamic extremists and it is an old fight and we will continue to fight. And we are making progress and there will be setbacks, but we will continue forward.

nmi - on why it took 4 yrs
"why did Bush surround himself" Negatively, it can be called cronyism. No one can accuse
W of being the brightest star in the galaxy, but (like ALL people thrust into leadership positions) he selected people he knew. Sometimes, the people selected are great people in their "fields" but ignorant in running a war.

A prime example is McNamara! Super genius in building automobile companies but a dufus in military operations.

Why did it take 4 yrs? 3 basic reasons! 1. W declared the war won when it was just the 1st battle against terrorism. 2. W failed to extend the war against other terroristic areas, and the Commanding General (CG) failed to take enough troops and equipment to support combat any such extension. 3. W decided on nation building (which, by the way, is being successful) before total suppression of terroristic activity.

Oh, one more reason! At the time W declared the war won, activity of terrorists was low. Other arabic countries saw what was happening in Iraq and were either fairly "quiet" or acquiesant. THEN the libs & dems began demanding immediate withdrawal of troops (cut-&-run). This encouraged terrorists to step up their activities (Iran elected Hamas leader Ahmadinejab AFTER the Lib/Dem began clamoring).

Terrorists are following the script written for Vietnam - kill-attack-avoid definitive combat until the American people become weary and disillusioned.

After all, the terrorists' most dependable allie is Dem/Lib pols who gleefully seek America's defeat so they can say (about W & the GOP), "I told you so."

Bleeding Heart Liberal
Your defeatist attitude is entirely off the mark! Every institution, campaign, organization or other work of human hands has been flawed from the start; nothing of human origin has ever been perfect, the same is true of the Iraq war.

Certainly there have been mistakes made along the way, I for one believe Bush stayed with Rumsfield much too long before changing horses; he was the longest serving Sec of Defense in the history of the country.

True leaders are realistic about their assessment of conditions on the ground as they find them, there is no good to come from wishing things had been done differently. This conflict (the war on terror in its entirety) is winnable if freedom loving people around the world pull together to make it so! Doing this will take a long time however, there is no quick solution to a born and bred generation of fanatics other than to outlast them. Any other option is unacceptable.

Defeatists such as yourself are doomed to a worse end than anything you can imagine with your limited perspective and dreams of a quick-fix short-term solution.

Pressured by dims?
My clear recollection was that Bush 41, Powell, and Poppy's inner circle were virtually united in the view that pushing on to Baghdad was a bad idea for reasons that are now clear to everyone but the deadenders posting on this thread.

Iraq is unwinnable by any definition
All we will ever hear is "progress is being made". If you want your great grandchildren fighting in Iraq, follow your current path.

This war (Iraq) is a waste of time, money, and men - depending on your definition of size, those rag tag "insurgents" have destroyed an American infantry division. The stated reasons for entering into Iraq were wrong from the beginning - lies from my perspective, faulty intel from yours.

Iraq is a de facto theocracy as witnessed in Basra. The government we prop up is corrupt and useless. The surge has created the "whack a mole" war of several years ago.

If you want total victory, turn Iraq in to a nuclear glaze. Beyond that, bring the troops home today.

Comparing WWII and Iraq part 2
The point of my other post is that the same evil that was in the minds of nazi guards is the same evil that we fight against today. And we must always be prepared to fight against evil.

Those who fought against the Evil of the Nazi atrocities are sometimes referred to as the “Greatest Generation”.

I believe that those of us here now in Iraq, all of us volunteers, remembering the holocaust and not forgetting the lessons learned, making sacrifices in the dessert to do our parts in confronting Evil in the world, represent a “Great Generation”. I am proud of everyone here today and proud of the opportunity to do my part in continuing the legacy of America in confronting evil in the world.

By these ACTS we do now, in fighting evil on a daily basis, that’s how WE honor the past and ensure a proper legacy for the future.

tinsldr2@yahoo.com again limited by space here but a more detailed analysis is on my blog under
http://tinsldr2.blogtownhall.com/2007/10/18/never_forget!_h olocaust_and_iraq3.thtml

Comparing WWII and Iraq
When making a comparison between Iraq and WWII we have to include a comparrison of Hitler to Saddam. These commants are cut from a much longer piece at the bottom of my blog.

The holocaust, and the Nazi government that created it, was the worst Evil in the 20th Century. But it also could have been stopped sooner with earlier action from the ‘free’ nations of the world. People like Chamberlain, who would do anything to avoid confrontation and have “peace in their time” talked and sanctioned and they allowed the evil to fester.
When talking about the holocaust we think of drastic torture and the use of gas chambers. To think of these atrocities as “history”, is to miss the most important lesson which is that evil that still exists in the modern world. Saddam Hussein, in continuing the Legacy of Tyrants like Hitler, used torture, murder and in 1988 he used poison gas to kill Thousands of Iraqi people.
Some years ago, my father and I made a trip to visit the site of Dachau Concentration camp in Germany. My father wrote about it and described it as “a trip through hell”. The rooms and grounds of the place were eerily silent and everyone talked in hushed whispers. Yet to our ears we could still hear the screams and moans of the inmates and our senses replaced the ‘to clean’ smell of the place with the awful smells which must have pervaded the area. The walls of the rooms were covered in gruesome pictures depicting the evil conditions. Now I want to contrast these recollections, with those of USA reporter Jack Kelley describing torture chambers in Iraq soon after our liberation of Iraq. Mr Kelley wrote “Pictures of dead Iraqi’s with their necks slashed, eyes gouged out, and genitals blackened, Fill a bookshelf. Jail cells with dried blood on the floor and rusted shackles bolted to the walls, line the corridors. And the screams of what could be imprisoned men in an underground detention center echo through air shafts and sewer pipes.”


Michael
Why McArthur was fired!

MAC WAS fired because of his mouth. Well, he was also an egotist. Anyway, MAC knew the Chinese had already entered the war and that, despite the libs fear of that, we were whipping butt.

MAC got fired because he dared to publicly disagree with Truman & the libs on conducting the war. MAC wanted total victory, and Truman & Dems wanted "negotiated settlement". MAC would NOT back down, so he was sacked.

Remember Desert Storm? GEN Swartzkof wanted to expand the "mission" with total victory. Bush sr. & dimmies said, "NO!!!! The mission has been accomplished." GEN S. submitted to his CIC and retired with honor.

To summarize, McArthur was NOT fired for winning in Korea, or even because total victory might result in another world war (that was just the excuse) but because he PUBLICLY disagreed with the defeatist attitude of his CIC and the dimmies.

Why did it take FOUR YEARS?
Dear Mr. Greenberg:

In your column today you write that "The idea of victory in (the Iraq) war has gone from forlorn hope to increasing possibility" thanks to the "surge" strategy devised by Gen. David Petraeus, "one of the most dedicated, determined and talented American leaders."

Your comments bring to mind the words of Pete Hegseth, of Veterans for Freedom, quoted by Kathryn Jean Lopez in her Town Hall column of Sept. 29, 2007. Ms Lopez wrote:

"Pete Hegseth, the articulate head of Veterans for Freedom -- folks who know true wartime sacrifice -- shares my opinion. 'I don't understand why he (Pres. Bush) wouldn't call on Americans to serve their country, in uniform, in this extremely important war. President Bush understands the stakes of the fight in Iraq and should call on the best and brightest to serve on the battlefield. That message, to me, seems like a no-brainer.'"

The question we should be asking the President is why it took FOUR YEARS to finally seek out competent leadership in a pivotal war which Mr. Bush said was being fought to protect our national security and ensure our survival.

And why Pres. Bush chose to surround himself with those who Town Hall columnist Dinesh D'Souza identified as "cronies and sycophants" such as Donald Rumsfeld whom John MCain has repeatedly blamed for a "terribly mismanaged war."

How many of our military casualties resulted from that incompetent leadership in years 2003 - 2006? Why was it necessary after four years of combat for the U.S. to be forced to rely on a "surge" and to sustain even more casualties in order to avoid humiliating defeat for the once-supreme fighting force in the world?




BOUTTE
I've seen your "the war is over" posts on numerous blogs.

It is exactly the same everytime! Apparently, you just cut-&-paste the same propaganda cow-poop, regardless of the topic being discussed.

Of course, you have the "right" to do that, but are you such an incompetent idiot that you are unable to develop an original idea?

Whoa! you must be the perfect dimmie! You are stuck on the dimmie precept that "the war is lost; we can't win; the war is mismanaged; the surge didn't work" ad infinitum.

You confirm that dimmies will happily allow America's destruction so long as your pols can be elected and you can get free "entitlements".

Fighting for victory
Talent scout, there is ONE reason the U.S. hasn't fought a war with victory in mind since WW-II... LIBERALS.

Talent Scout con't
You asked, "Is this ..."

Then, the 1st desert war came along. We won the battle, but Bush sr. - under dimmie pressure - did not allow us to win the TOTAL VICTORY.

Between the Bushes, WJC & dimmies perfectly developed the "cut-and-run" methodology.

"W" with almost total approval of Americans and most of the world responded to attack on America with war on terrorism (WOT). BUT, he got side-tracked & lost that approval.

Now, we are in a "do-or-die" situation. W is obsessed with nation building, establishing the bas for a NAU, and "new world order".

The military wans total victory in the WOT, but the dimies are counting on our defeat. HRC & BHO are ready to cut-and-run and hand victory to the terrorist. McCain is little different, in other matters, from the libs, BUT he does understand the consequencies of losing the WOT.

The war is over?
I wish Someone had told us that sooner,

Ummm I am looking out the window at the T-walls am seeing the sand and feeling the heat here in Iraq still.

The 3 ID is continuing to make progress even though we will be replaced in less then two months.

here are some recent headlines:
Tuesday, 15 April 2008
MND-C launches major capacity-building operation; National Police seize cache southeast of Baghdad;

Monday, 14 April 2008
Foreign-Born Troops Become U.S. Citizens; Congressmen visit Yusifiyah; Sewing Center opens, provides employment...

Saturday, 12 April 2008
Never Too Deep; Chicken industry a spark to economic progress in Iraq; Artesian well pumps clean water for Zambraniya, Bayjia...

Thursday, 10 April 2008
Operations in Mahmudiyah; New rule of law expert meets Mada’in judges;

Wednesday, 09 April 2008
Sunni, Shia march in unity through Mahmudiyah; Coalition forces visit water company in Kut; Op Estonia reels in numerous criminal, caches found...

Dog Face Daily - 8 April 2008
Tuesday, 08 April 2008
IA keeps peace in Mahmudiyah, deters criminals; Maderiyah secondary school opens its doors

Source: http://www.taskforcemarne.com/dog-face-daily/

Gee, looks to me that we are continuing to conduct combat ops, assist in the building of infrastructure, and assistant in economic development and governance. But I guess since the mighty has declared it over its over.

Comments to the Blog by clicking the name or tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Talent Scout
You asked, "Is this the idea of victory of the military or a globalist one worlder president?"

It is NOT the goal of the military! I served 20+ yrs in the Army, and the ONLY alternative to peace was victory over enemies. The ONLY acceptable dialogue with the enemy was accepting unconditional surrender or acquiesance.

In the Revolutionary War, the goal of both sides was total defeat of the other. America won, with help of allies. Same idea for War of 1812. Same idea for Civil War. Same idea for WW I & II.

Unfortunately, the military & its goals are controlled by politicians.

Eisenhower was prez with dimmie congress. "WE" had the chance to save China from communist take-over, but the Congressional Dems hemmed&hawed and look at the result.

Then came Korea, and the dimie pols said we couldn't win. When McArthur proved we COULD win, the dimmie pols would not allow us to win (red China MIGHT enter the war (HA! They were already in it).

The came Vietnam! JFK got us involved and LBJ expanded it. Rules of Engagement (ROE) were designed that benefited the enemy and denied OUR ability to win. Even after "WE" left VN and our VN allies were winning, the pols assured their defeat by withdrawing support and equipment.

That is why I left the Democratic Party (all of my immediate family and most relatives were Democrat).

The Truth be Known
Boutte has demonstrated our real problem with the Iraq war, it's politics! Liberals are so committed to loosing this war just to prove to the rest of us their hate for everything Bush is justified! This is more about Ego and false Intellectualism than it is about the long term welfare of our culture and individual freedoms for all.

talent scout
I was under the impression that MacArthur was fired for being a loud mouth prima donna that dragged his boss through the mud when his plans for Korea were rejected due to the fact that there was a strong possibility that they'd kick off another world war.

talent scout writes:
This is why we are in Afghanistan
"We'll be partners in rebuilding that country."

We left Afghanistan to is own devices after the Soviet invasion and see what we got. If we don't try and rebuild Afghanistan the Taliban will. Power hates a vacuum.

Boutte
Well, if it was on salon.com, it must be true...

Mr. Greenberg:
This is not WWII. Not even close. This is nation building in a muslim country.

Boutte, WTF?
That was the most inane post I've seen on TH in a long time. That has to be your hemorrhoids talking man. Seems as if you could use some Altoids to clean that stench from your mouth.

TBC ~:>{(

So, Boutte
You think you know more about the situation over there than the man in charge? Somehow, I doubt that. Talk to soldiers. They say the same thing; the situation has definitely improved, Iraqi citizens are increasingly turning on the bad guys (and that's not us, despite what many liberals state), virtually every aspect of the war is looking better every day. Talk to soldiers before you spout off about something you don't have any knowledge about.

Just one comment
Greenburg writes:
" The idea of victory in that war has gone from forlorn hope to increasing possibility.
In war, as an American general named MacArthur once said, there is no substitute for victory. And that includes the current euphemism for defeat, Exit Strategy."
--------
We did not go with MacArther's strategy either, he was fired by Truman for wanting Victory.

The USA has not fought for a victory since the end of WW2.
Not in Korea
Not in Vietnam
Not in Iraq or Afghanistan.

So what are we fighting for?
It is not victory, and that is for certain.

Bush said we are over there to build the nation.

Is this the idea of victory of the Military or a globalist one worlder President?


White House, 2002
President Delivers State of the Union Address
The President's State of the Union Address
The United States Capitol
Washington, D.C.


America and Afghanistan are now allies against terror. We'll be partners in rebuilding that country. And this evening we welcome the distinguished interim leader of a liberated Afghanistan: Chairman Hamid Karzai. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11 .html
This is why we are in Afghanistan
"We'll be partners in rebuilding that country."
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