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Saturday, March 29, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
I Can Identify
by Paul Greenberg
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It's been a couple of weeks now and people are still talking about The Speech, meaning Barack Obama's about race. How often does a political speech stay in our thoughts this long? Usually it's forgotten as soon as it's delivered, if not while it's being delivered. This one was different. How many other speeches in this campaign year do you still think about? How many others do you even remember? What speech of John McCain's or Hillary Clinton's can you recall?

How account for the staying power of The Speech? Maybe because it dealt with race not from without but from within, and invited not so much applause as thought - and response. Maybe because it was so personal. Barack Obama wasn't speaking about race as a politician or sociologist or some vague do-gooder might do, but as a person - a person who had made some deliberate choices about his own racial identity.

The impetus for The Speech was to explain one of his choices: Why had he stuck with a pastor who'd said such appalling things? Many of us have faced similar choices: Do we walk out of church when the preacher says something we disagree with, and keeps saying it? Do we disown him, make a scene, separate ourselves from the community? Or do we just sit there, maybe talk it over with the minister later, write him a letter, or what?

I can identify. I go to a Reform Jewish temple, and someone once described Reform Judaism, all too accurately, as "the Democratic Party with holidays." There are times when the ideological agenda can get mighty thick.

I remember going to a Chanukah service at which some of the temple's religious school students were reading papers in defense of abortion. And not just defending abortion but almost lauding it. You'd think it had become a sacrament.

I sat there thinking: This is choosing life? This is what we're teaching the young? Hitler didn't kill enough of us, now we're going to kill our unborn? At least Pharaoh spared the girl babies.

And this, mind you, was a Chanukah service - a holiday celebrating a revolt in ancient Judaea against the pagan practices that were being widely adopted by the Jews of that time, or at least those of an advanced, fashionably Hellenistic bent.

Unlike old Mattathias in First Maccabees, who began the revolt by choosing to make a stand when the latest, oh-so-progressive ways came to his village, I just sat there. It's not conscience but respectability that doth make cowards of us all. I can identify with Barack Obama's not making a scene every time his pastor said something appalling.

Then came September 11, 2001. The panic and pride, fear and determination of that time, the flags flying everywhere, coincided with the High Holidays. The rabbi took the occasion to warn against striking back too forcefully, or maybe just striking back. As if we Jews had learned nothing from our long years of passivity in Europe, with its all too predictable result.

This time I did not just sit there. As it happened, hurrying to services from the newspaper, I'd stopped in the composing room to check the page proof one more time. On the way, I'd passed through the advertising department, where every cubicle had been decorated with a small American flag. One must have fallen, for I spied it on the floor. I quickly picked it up and, without thinking, stuck it in my breast pocket. I remembered it when the rabbi began to warn us against, yes, "flag-waving."

That did it. I remembered the little flag I had with me. There are no coincidences. I'd been entrusted with this flag for a purpose. I drew it out, held it high, and slowly began waving it back and forth. The rabbi continued his prepared sermon as long as he could, but even he finally took notice. My hesitation about making a scene had completely disappeared. I could have waved Old Glory forever that night.

Should I have walked out, turned my back on my congregation, my rabbi and, despite Hillel's injunction in the Talmud, separated myself from the community?

I don't think so. For one thing, my rabbi doesn't just give political sermons. He presides over a spiritual cafeteria, meeting the needs of all his congregants, conducting everything from little study groups to High Holiday services, tending to the poor and sick, the hungry physically as well as spiritually. The man is indefatigable. He's not only a good rabbi but a good man. He'd do anything for you. Am I supposed to disown him because we disagree, even deeply? Aren't we supposed to practice tolerance, mutual respect and even remember that we are all one?

If my rabbi can tolerate me, which can't be easy, surely I can tolerate him. Yes, I can identify with Barack Obama - and the choice he made.

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Mistaking Mocha Marvin for a mensch
--
Says Mr. Greenberg:

"Barack Obama wasn't speaking about race as a politician or sociologist or some vague do-gooder might do, but as a person - a person who had made some deliberate choices about his own racial identity."


Nonsense. Barack Hussein hasn't done *ANYTHING* over the past few decades except as a politician.

When "Barry" Obama decided to join the congregation of Trinity United Church of Christ (TUCC), dollars to donuts he did it with more than a personal religious objective in mind.

Y'see, Mocha Marvin (the Mulatto Miracle) is a BINO.

That's "Black in name only." Genetically, he's as much Caucasian as he is Negro.

Culturally, he's whiter than cottage cheese.

Little boy Barry need to learn how to "act Black," and do it in ways that held the seeming of political correctness.

He also needed a religious image that would make him acceptable to voters in the dominantly Black precincts where his minimal melanin content was his only real asset.

Thus he chose to church himself publicly at TUCC. Two birds with one stone. Social "immersion therapy" in the language and mindset of the militantly racist Black population he wanted to exploit for their votes and the cultivation of an image he knew would play on "Liberal" Whites' pathological sense of racial guilt.

Religious believers like Mr. Greenberg are altogether too ready to concede sympathy for the outward seeming of religious beliefs among mamzers like Barry Hussein.

It's a failing on your part, Mr. Greenberg. He's not your kind of people - in any way, at any level, to any degree at all.

--

No Judgement
I agree that a church must not spit itself with each conflict. I understand that you can relate to Obama's church loyality. However, you are not asking to represent me in choosing the next secretary of state, or secretary of defense, or supreme court justice. If I were to gloss over Obama's lack of judgement and vote for him, I would be doing the same as he in his choice of pastors.

So then...
... go off and 'identify' with him. Just don't expect that I might vote for him, any moreso than I might (as the old cliche has it) like to find myself in a foxhole with him.
Another old cliche: Actions speak louder than words. Even louder than a 'speech' intended to bowl over sappy journalists.
Continue to wave your flag where you choose. Maybe by doing so you can convince Barry to wear one in his lapel.

we are judged by the company we keep...
Barack Obama is no exception. I disagree with Mr. Greenberg wholeheartedly. There is a huge disparity between lack of "flag waving" and the venom that Obama's preacher spews.

G.D. America!!! No way! That is an insult to all of us that are proud to be Americans.

Obama wants to be president and actually has supporters...what has this country become?

This is a wake-up call.

SJ Doc Or God
Your holiness we bow low, real low at your feet sir, we bow lower than the bass singer in the negro spritual "swing looooow sweet chariot".
Let me tell you why?
Mr. Greenberg is just showing, by using himself as an example Barack "The Real Mr. Oprah" Obama's human side in dealing with the controversy of his raving lunatic pastor at Chicago Trinity.
The black voter scenario you sketched is somewhat spot on I'll give you that.
However, as a deity, such as yourself the acting black thing was a funny low blow and you of all people probably know acting black is, well, grabbing one's crotch in front of his peeps and hoes-though, I have to say I've never seen Obama do that.
Then your holiness you scoured Mr. Greenberg for his religous beliefs which goes totally counter to your teachings, your majesty. And on top of that you utter:
"Mr. Greenberg, He's not you kind of people-in any way, at any level, to any degree at all".
I have to admit your holiness, I was shocked to my foundations when I read this harsh and damning indictment, shocked I tell you that our lord would pass such a bee-atch-slapping judgement, especially when he advocates love and tolerance for his fellow man.
Shocked I tell you to the point where I almost got up and walked out of this Townhall Church, but instead like Obama I'll nod grin and bear it and say amen. And get this, I'm not religous at all.

Yes, it was personal
and the dilemma of countless half castes the world over when one is born half of one and half of another.

From his earliest remembrance, this child was in the care and custody of a Caucasian Female that he knew as Mother. The other major influences in his life were his Caucasian grandparents with whom he lived for 8 continuous years. But no matter that his orientation and lifestyle had their foundation in a White household, the Society in which we live regards him as a Black.

Children that are born and grow up in these circumstances are in a constant state of conflict, confusion and even deep despair as they try to find a sense of identity. All too often, someone will ask, "what are you, anyway" or they will overhear someone ask their Mother or grandparent, "is he adopted?"

After 8 years in a private school, marginally mixed but still predominantly white, young Barack was but one of a scant few Black children who, every day, went home to his White Grandparents.........and there he had experiences and heard things which made him question his acceptance. What child wouldn't be confused and conflicted, what child growing into maturity could escape from himself?

Barack Obama went on to an otherwise nearly all White Occidental College for 2 years, then transferred to Columbia. Nearly an adult at this point. He did not go to a Black University and did not live with and among Blacks at any time UNTIL the day he decided to BECOME what Society said he MUST BE.

Hidden within this highly intelligent, quiet and somewhat withdrawn young man burned a desire to be something, more than that, an accomplished something. This young man had just experienced 12 continuous years of the finest Private School education that someone else's money could buy, that's nearly the entirety of his life. And most of his years with a White household.


Yes, it was personal ~ 2
Why would a man of his talent, intelligence and demeanor stoop to accepting a job for $11,000.00 when his credentials easily warranted 4 or 5 times that? It is unimaginable to comprehend that a Punahou School, Columbia graduate would deign to seek and accept a mere $11,000 per year, simply unfathomable.

Working as a community organizer for a Catholic funded coalition of neighborhood churches in South Chicago was his Master's Degree in defining himself. But first, he had to learn. And learn he did, then he went to Harvard Law and established himself as the first and only Black head of the Law Review, an accomplishment that only he had ever achieved.

Thence he returned to go back into training to become a candidate for the Presidency.

Now, does anyone still have any questions?

For I have walked in his shoes, yes I have.
You bet it's personal.


pjal - a personally calculating Obama
--
pjal uncritically worships the image of:

"...this highly intelligent, quiet and somewhat withdrawn young man...."


(Sounds a helluva lot more like one of those college students who goes berserk with semiautomatic weapons and explosives in a "gun-free" classroom building packed with American Eloi, doesn't it?)

...and then pastes:

"...I have walked in his shoes, yes I have."


Hm. Did you use that antiseptic spray they spritz in the bowling alley rental footware beforehand, kid?

Be careful. A walk in a socialist's shoes will leave you with an urge to "Tax and tax, spend and spend, elect and elect!"



------------
"A man who chooses between drinking a glass of milk and a glass of a solution of potassium cyanide does not choose between two beverages; he chooses between life and death. A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings."

-- Ludwig von Mises

Hypocrisy
Do we worship racial double standards? Obama loudly opposed judicial appointments for associations far more tenuous than his connections to the virulently racist Wright, e.g., membership 30 years ago in a country club that didn't allow women members.

He opposed the judicial nomination of African-American Janice Rogers Brown because she once ruled that under certain circumstances, a racial slur could be protected speech under the First Amendment - he kind of tolerance Obama now wants for Wright. He opposed the nomination of Leslie Southwick for similar reasons on the basis of two decisions (out of over 7,000). Why should Obama be held to a far lesser standard for a far more powerful office?

Obama demanded Imus be fired for a "racial slur" popular on black rap recordings. Obama wasn't interested in "nuance," "context," or considering Imus's good works. Just one "snippet." Ironically, he claimed he was worried about the effect on his daughters if they were exposed to such racist slurs (ouch!)

It is one thing to sit through a sermon cautioning against "flag-waving." It is quite another to actively support and fund the incitement of racial hate - Greenberg's attempt at equivalency fails.

Obama's own book show him to be obsessed with racial issues, disgustingly ranting about "white blood," and "black blood" like nothing seen since the heyday of the Nazis and KKK.

To paraphrase Antonin Scalia, if Obama really didn't want race to be such an issue, he'd stop making it an issue.

To pjal
Basic tenet of sociology: "marginality enhances perspective". The bad side of being marginal is that you are denied the deep joy of belonging. The good side of being marginal is that you have X-ray vision like Superman---the more you are an outsider, the more you can see what is going on. Obama, in many different senses, grew up an outsider.

Many of us have had a similar experience of marginality, and for all kinds of reasons. We were the only fat child in a world of thin children, or the only dark child in a fair-complected family, or a different religion or nationality or race from our peers, or the only stepchild in a family of "born" children, or we were immigrant, or we were poorer than our classmates at school.

Our marginality enables us to see more clearly, but it also gives us a basis for empathy---"One feather is a bird, I say/ One leaf, a wood"---the capacity for empathy doesn't require a 100%-same experience---just a bit will do as template.

Not only should we understand Obama because of our own experiences of marginality, but because he has explained himself so clearly: "As a mixed-race boy growing up in Hawaii, I tried to invent myself as a black man living in the United States.". Choosing Jeremiah Wright's shoutin' church, rather than the ritualistic and dignified Episcopal church as many black people do as they find success on the white side of the world, may have been part of Obama's invention of himself as a black man in America. And he has remained within his church as a way of acknowledging and containing a major reality of our world.

I am disappointed in my fellow Americans who have so widely not gotten the point of Obama's message that being, after all, does transcend belonging. Disappointed, but not surprised.

SJ Doc: Identification
The title of the subject article is "I Can Identify", and it's all about feelings of identification, so I can't resist pointing out something you've said on the subject. You take the words "highly intelligent, quiet, and somewhat withdrawn young man"---words which generally describe just about young male in graduate or professional school, any seriously good student---and immediately connect this with the young man being, probably, a dangerous berserker. The opposite of "highly intelligent, quiet, and somewhat withdrawn" would be "quite stupid, noisy, and somewhat raucous", which presumably is where YOU identify.

Respect Life
The basic commandment of all our historical and religious experience is to respect human life. Once we stray from that path eventually we become monsters, no different from Hitler and the Nazis.

Churches and synagogues that bend to the zeitgeist of abortion on demand do not deserve respect or support. Leaders like Obama and Clinton who support abortion rights do not deserve our support, much less our votes.

Pastors, priests, ministers, and rabbis who brag about their community support efforts and yet condone the massacre of the innocent belong in the circle of Hell reserved for the worst hypocrites.

I am not religious but would not attend a church that condones abortions.


SJ DOC gets something right for once
"Religious believers like Mr. Greenberg are altogether too ready to concede sympathy for the outward seeming of religious beliefs among mamzers like Barry Hussein."

I've noticed this also, SJ. You are about 1/2 as bright in your columns usually as this, but are at least improving. The point about being culturally similar to Mighty Whitey also rings a bell. Now if we can get you straight on immigration, I might think that you've learned to read.

The Race Is Over
Some talk show hosts have run clips of Obama narrating his books and it reveals an individual who is obsessed with race. His attendance at Trinity Church led by a pastor who evidently shares his obsession just reinforced his beliefs of race at the top of his hierarchy of concerns. I believe Obama does not transcend race issues--he is drowning in them. I think a race-obsessed man is not the ideal candidate for the presidency of a country whose inhabitants, fortunately, generally have moved beyond race.

Darling lilly - Identity, real & assumed
--
Quotes lilly (from Barack Hussein's endlessly referenced speech):

"I tried to invent myself as a black man living in the United States."


Which, of course, Barry had to do if he wanted to fulfill his political aspirations.

After all, even our pallid lilly will admit that the silly booger is about as "Black" as a bowl of milk.

What's wonderful about this praise of Mocha Marvin (and all other efforts by "Liberal" Shriners-in-motorboats striving so sweatily to stir up the slurry on this conservative Web site) is that it betrays the literally hypocritical mindset of the modern American "social injustice" guilt-tripper like lilly.

If, for the sake of political expediency, I were to speak of an effort to "invent myself" as something I'm not, someone like our radiant lilly would come down upon me in an avalanche of disapproval.

Well, hell. "I'm a member of the oppressing color/ Language, age, and sex...."

But because Mocha Marvin is trying to abjure his Inner Whitey and climb into the wholly false persona of a politically correct minority group, he's lilly's very own "Black Kennedy."

Hoo, boy.

As for what one finds in "...just about [any] young male in graduate or professional school," dearest lilly, *YOU* didn't go to the same medical school at which I matriculated, that's for goddam sure.

Or any other that had produced any of the medical students and residents I've preceptor'd over the years.

While they've certainly been "highly intelligent" (except for some of the "Double-Oh-Seven" types that manage to pass Parts 1 and 2 but enter their training years with ineptitudes that have to be pounded out of 'em), med students are anything *BUT* "quiet, and somewhat withdrawn" young people.

Not if they're going to become effective physicians and surgeons.

--

Ph.D., J.D. - Whateverinhell...?
--
...might give you cause to think that I'm writing to please *YOU*?

Concedes Ph.D., J.D., that I am:

"...at least improving."


According to *YOUR* standards, of course. How nice.

Distinct from the topic under discussion (Mocha Marvin's efforts to "invent" himself as a low-church Protestant schwartzer), there's mention of your opinion as to how I need to "get...straight on immigration."

Care to get more explicit with regard to your personal preferences in this area of debate, and how I diverge so unacceptably therefrom?

Meanwhile:



----------
"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well."

-- Booker T. Washington

I can't identify
The United Presbyterian church I attended as a young person was through most of my history with it, one of teaching the bible and Christ and through this information trying to help us all live a Christ-like life.However, the minister retired and the new one was more inclined to preach with a sociological/political bent. My parents and a group of others of a like mind, left the church and formed The Bible Church. That is my model.

Cowards
I'm glad you raised the flag.

Perhaps there are fewer options for you in your choice of place of worship.

I'm fortunate, there are many many Protestant denominations - more flavors than Ben and Jerry ice cream. My husband and I searched an entire year before joining a church. The day we hear political agendas from the pulpit, we'll search again.

We belong to a church to praise God and lead a Christian life. No political rhetoric, no agenda, no programs. We support private charities for the needy. No politics. No tolerance policy for politics.

Maybe, we are not respectable enough.

lilly at 6:29
Thank you for that post.

I understand clearly now the roots of your arrogance, condescension, and sense of superior insight (even if it comes from being on the outside).

SJDoc---Not Black Enough?
A man who looks like Barack Obama would not have been able to register at a nice hotel or get seated at a nice restaurant before the Civil Rights Act. Trust me, he would have been plenty black enough for the purpose. If you don't believe me, ask any black American over the age of, say, seventy. And when a man who is the image of Obama is brought home by your daughter as the prospective son-in-law, you will definitely not perceive him to be Nordic.

Another point: all adolescents invent the adult they will become. That's a big part of what adolescence is for. A mixed-race kid, or a kid growing up in a country and culture not his own, has an extra struggle in doing this.

As for your comments about school, I am distressed that you equate a kid being introspective and scholarly with a kid being psychotic. Aren't we, as a society, past the point where the drunken cheerleader and the horny football player are the "normal" kids and the ones who spend hours in the lab or library are the "weird" kids? (Not among townhallers, I know...how stupid of me to have asked.)

MIchael - right on.....
I haven't applied baracks hypocrisy to his political manuevering as you've presented. I hope some national voice picks up on your thoughts here about this blatent political wannabe whitey one day / afro-centric negro the next day panderer.

Also, I want to post that the author of this article has NO courage of conviction and by his own words and admission will be judged harshly by Almighty God.

Greenberg, what do you have to say about Wrights obvious anti-jew rants and support for enemies of Isreal? You sir are a coward and an enemy of your own people.

I can't identify...
You would have sat there and listened to your Rabbi God Damn America three times and not have screwed up the courage to: 1) tell him that was unacceptable and to nock it off; 2) get up and leave?

Whew! I guess I can't identify. I would have been out of there long before the "climate" got to that level of toxicity.


SJ Doc you said:
As for what one finds in "...just about [any] young male in graduate or professional school," dearest lilly, *YOU* didn't go to the same medical school at which I matriculated, that's for goddam sure.

Or any other that had produced any of the medical students and residents I've preceptor'd over the years.




Does anybody really believe a snot-nose like this a doctor?

Welfare whining is racist code-speak
Your lies don't stand up to scrutiny.


http://www.msu.edu/user/skourtes/myths.html

Doug.....
The only thing I can be sure of regarding Barack and this whole kerfuffle is that HE WILL throw his "peeps" and his pastor under the bus very soon. It is becoming too polarizing amongst "whitey" delegates and voters and he MUST have whitey in order to secure the nomination.

Therefore, as soon as politically expediant he will rediscover his white roots and he and Michelle will throw you and the rest of the angry black men under the bus.

What will you have to say then?

Oh really
Polarized whites weigh in on Jeramiah Wright the American hating racist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anpI-BKp5cg

Obama forced to choose?

Doug - I responded to your youtube
On another thread. These whitey pastors are the true race-hustlers and slave owners. They play on your ignorance, low self-esteem and institutional hatred in order to hit the jackpot like Wright did and retire with millions in a large home in a gated comunity safe and secure from the statistically proven beyond a doubt violent, criminal thuigs they preach to.

Doug - hang in there....thank to your half-white great black hope Obama and his dlimeball POS pastor your average whitey is waking up to these race pimps and peddlers of racism and hate and will free the black man from from the chains of bondage again....even though we know that you'll never say thank you.

My church?????
1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the WHITE Community
3. Commitment to the WHITE Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the WHITE Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the WHITE Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting WHITE Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all WHITE leadership who espouse and embrace the WHITE Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the WHITE Value System.

Doug - thank whatever god you worship whitey doesn't gravitate to this type of belief system our of bitterness and resentment from all the violence and crime perpertrated by blacks against whites who had ZERO to do with your insane and delusioned ramblings

Tarzan Complex
Just as blacks have recieved negative programming from media sources over the years so have you.

You said:

Doug - hang in there....thank to your half-white great black hope Obama and his dlimeball POS pastor your average whitey is waking up to these race pimps and peddlers of racism and hate and will free the black man from from the chains of bondage again....even though we know that you'll never say thank you.


Tarzan is not real. Neither is John Wayne. In reality these "great white icons" Actually represent some of the sickest human beings to walk the planet.

You guys aren't real known for helping or rescuing, besides, if you look at the performance of black soldiers over history, you will realize we do more than hold or own.

And blacks fought a non-violent war that insured civil rights for all Americans.

I know who to thank
and that is God and that the civil rights activists of the sixties.(white and black) That this country is the place it is.

Your belief system seems fine as long as it does not negatively effect other Americans.

Your posts are neurotic
and disjointed. It seems to me that you are about half as smart as you think....

"Tarzan is not real. Neither is John Wayne. In reality these "great white icons" Actually represent some of the sickest human beings to walk the planet."

Huh? Tarzan and the Duke demonstrated self-responsibility and courage. Something you believe the black man is incapable of.

It is your liberal white nannies who think that black men cannot achieve, your massah democratic plantation owners and your hero gangsta thugs, sports icons and rap stars that demonstrate day in and out that they are sick by leading your ignorant and low self-esteem brothers and sisters deeper into the chasm of despair and poverty.

"You guys aren't real known for helping or rescuing, besides, if you look at the performance of black soldiers over history, you will realize we do more than hold or own."

Absolutely agree dougy - they held/hold their own and don't keep looking to whitey for more handouts and excuses. They took their issues and matters in their own hands and did something about it - it is called PUTTING UP or SHUTTING UP. It appears to me that you aren't man enough to carry their water much less try to equivocate your rants to their courage.

"And blacks fought a non-violent war that insured civil rights for all Americans."

And how's that working for YOU so far, Doug...? Based on your rants and big mouths race warlords like Wright and Obama who pledge allegiance to Africa I could only conclude that blacks who fought and insured cival rights for all Americans failed miserably.

Pharoah
If you hadn't noticed a black guy is about to the president.

A woman had the second best chance.

I'd say that civil rights stuff worked pretty good.

You not knowing about Tarzan and John Wayne shows a real, stunning, ignorance.

Take a breath, when you panic you can't think straight.

HEAVY DOG & LILLY ON THE SAME PAGE

.....dog ...I don't believe that you are black ...black men have more sense than you display ....if I say "I went to get my whip pimped" ...what am I talking about? ...

.....Lilly ...Sociology is Liberal Psychobabble ...Obamy resents his white half so he rejected it to become "all black" ...now he is going to make whitey pay by shuckin' and jivin' his way into the White House so that he can destroy the Country that he hates by shoving Marxism down our throats ...it is all so simple my dear simpleton .....COLOSSUS

Everyone
Please excuse Baseball.


He once attempted to engage me in a serious dialog, and failed miserably.



Alas, it is I who reduced him to this.


I apologize to the group.


HEAVY DOG

.....dog ...If I say "I whipped out my hog and got nasty" ...what am I talking about? .....COLOSSUS

heavydoug
"And blacks fought a non-violent war that insured civil rights for all Americans."

I suppose there were no white people in there fighting for civil rights, given your wording.

John Brown was
A truly obscure, unsung American hero.

John Brown, and many of his sons, fighting slavery five years before the civil war began.

From underground railroad to the movement of the sixties.


Brothers side by side.


Black people would not be free without the help and great sacrifice of good, loving, white people.


Period.

And thank you.

christheprofessor
Old Heavy gets to school the Professor.


How 'bout that?

SJ DOC has an identity problem
thinking himself to be in touch with reality, that is, when he's so far removed from any capacity to understand common sense considerations.

Now I'm developing a better understanding of the difficulties associated with our health care system when people like SJDoc are permitted to practice medicine let alone be allowed to mix with other normal human beings.

Comments such as I made about Barack Obama did no more than explain his issue with identity from a personal perspective, there wasn't a hint of advocacy for what he became. Methinks you have been dipping into the wrong formulary?

Had you half a brain, you'd realize that the subject of Greenberg's article is I CAN IDENTIFY
as he juxtaposed his orthodox/reform concerns as though that gave him some extraordinary level of heightened understanding. Frankly, it was a rather weak comparison.

If you will stop, look and listen, and take your proctoscopic head out of the orifice where your sigmoid colon ends, you'd also recognize that the comments about Mr. Obama's intelligence and the description of his demeanor have been widely acknowledged as have terms commonly used like walking in your shoes or the like.

At age 72, I'm hardly a wooly headed young college Obama aspirant, moreover, I have never voted for a Democrat in my life, casting my first vote for Ike........but I am not so emptyheaded not to recognize that anyone who succeeds to heading the Harvard Law Review and attains summa c*m laude honorariums is usually on the other end of the intelligence quotient than a lamebrained half baked and probably ill-conceived example of subhumanity such as you.

I abhor his politics and his Party but no more than those who, like you, belong in an asylum and certainly not attempting to make intelligent exchanges with grownups.

You might consider remedial reading courses?

heavydog
You didn't me on anything. My great-great-great grandfather died freeing slaves.

You're welcome.

Doh!
That should read "didn't school me on anything."


pjal
Look at my post at 9:31 am.

christheprofessor
Read at my post at 10:56.


Look before you leap.

heavydoug
Fair enough.

You're still welcome.

YOU WERE NOT A SITTING US SENATOR
Your attempts to compare what Barack Obama did to your own fall miserably short.

The images we have seen of Jeremiah Wright were as dangerous and opposite to the American way of life as AlQueada putting AK 47's in the hands of eight year olds.

Now who is more responsible the guy who put the AK47's in their hands or the guy who shot the video? Afterall they share the same heritage??

Mr. Obama was for 2 of the 20yrs. sitting there was a SITTING UNITED STATES SENATOR while his neighbors, his constituents, his country were systematically dismantled and did nothing.

No one asked him to storm out or make a scene. He made a scene alright though his choice to sit there and now point at us that we're the ones who are wrong.

A private conversation and separation would have been a more appropriate one. Provided that he opposed what was said.

Seeds of hate don't grow hope. I think a better title would have been The Arrogance of Hate.

I have never witnessed first hand a coup until now

Pull you off subject he slithers away.


To Heavy Doug
No. Nor do I believe that JD's Handsome Son is Handsome. Or that MD PhD is one. Welcome to Wishfulthinkingville. I hear there are guys who weigh 450* and still live with their parents who bill themselves online as gorgeous studs. And horny 40 year-old perverts who come on to young girls as young boys.

created soul
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ



Truth cures the savage soul.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anpI-BKp5cg



Medicine.

Created Soul: Other Ways of Being
We have been hearing, reading, and seeing for two weeks now that rhetoric like Jeremiah's is not unusual in the black church, which seems to have a culture quite unlike that of, say, First Unitarian or a high Episcopal or a Catholic church, all ritual and dignity. Just today (check the chicagosuntimes online, where I found the item this morning on Google News) there's an piece saying that Jeremiah Wright's church is making him a retirement gift of a $1 million >10,000 square foot home with every luxury you can imagine---they are building it now. There's a picture. It's huge, brick, and elegant. No church I have ever gone to would spend its money that way when there is so much need in the world, and no minister I have ever known would dream of accepting such a gift. Different culture. I also wonder who paid for the cruise JW went on last week---the congregation? And the rhetoric is part of it all. Not my way, and I guess not your way. But it's the way chosen by many, and it's not illegal. Or are you going to outlaw the black church?

Nice Pad
Anybody who wants to see how Jeremiah Wright's congregation feels about him, just google "chicago sun times" and when it comes up write "jeremiah wright house church" in the search box. The article is titled "Welcome Home, Rev. Wright" and subtitled "Church Builds $1 Mansion for Wright".

Now this is interesting. This morning that article was a link on Google News. In preparing this post I checked ten minutes ago and the article was up. I checked again three minutes ago and it was down but there are other hits on the subject. It may be getting some attention...there's also an article (with photo) in today's Chicago Tribune.

My point in posting this is that the black congregation isn't outraged at all---and others have commented on TV that this kind of sensationalistic hyperbole is normative in the black church. All of which is an interesting cultural phenomenon and I wish sociologists joy of studying it, but it's just unfair to present Obama as holding the same views when he has never said any such thing.

Mr. Greenburg
There is one glaring difference between your experience and B.O.s. You dissagreed immediatly while he did damage control. Had he come out immediatly that day and dissagreed with what was said and the meaning behind it I would at least have some respect for him.

Obama
I wouldn't care if Obama was whiter than than the whitest redhead I ever saw, I still wouldn't support his liberal views! If he went to an all white church and the pastor spewed the venom that JW does I would still be apalled that a pastor would talk that way to his congregation, so in this scenario lilly can get off her soapbox now! I never comment on her postings, it's just hard to not this time. Just becouse people do not like what JW says or becouse they do not like Obama does not mean they are prejudice!

LILLY & BROAD DOG - SOULMATES?

.....A cyberspace May/December relationship between an immature faux negro and an over the hill nerd who still has fantasies of cheerleaders and horny footbal players ...you can't fool a computer Lilly ...you're made .....COLOSSUS

Blooming lilly - Not Black at all
--
Somehow, lilly holds that I disapprove of Mocha Marvin for being "Not Black Enough" when I've made it clear that he's obviously not Black at all.

Whether or not we accept the racist concept of the supposed "power of Black blood" (which Mocha Marvin, the empty suit, so thoroughly embraces) to stigmatize a person with the least taint of negritude à la *Puddn'head Wilson*, he's so obviously - hell, *BLATANTLY* - an alien to American Black culture that any effort on his part to "invent" himself as a "shoutin' church" schwartzer is evidentiary of nothing more than plain goddam phoniness.

Barack Hussein is as much a Faux noire as the protagonist in Thomas M. Disch's novel *On Wings of Song* (1979), and despite lilly's grope at the fact that "...all adolescents invent the adult they will become," he didn't make his decision to make this dive into self-falsification as the result of a teen-ager's grope at acculturation.

Barry-boy was a college graduate (having matriculated at Occidental and Columbia) when he deliberately made the decision - as an adult - to "go over to the Dark Side."

Hardly "...a kid growing up," Mocha Marvin was a mature political skunk when he picked the set of stripes so carefully calculated to serve his advancement.

Proof enough in the dedicated support of our own darling lilly, the perfect barometer of "Liberal" gullibility.




--------
CHEVY CHASE: "I don't judge a man by the color of his skin. I judge him by the thickness of his lips."

-- *Saturday Night Live*

heavydoug - Light in the loafers?
--
Gropes heavydoug (re. me):

"Does anybody really believe a snot-nose like this a doctor?"


Does anybody really give an ounce of guano for what *YOU* might believe, putzie?

Ever read the novel from which the *MASH* franchise was developed? I remember getting a copy in '68 or '69, before Robert Altman made his movie version, when author H. Richard Hornberger (writing as "Richard Hooker") - a thoracic surgeon practicing in Maine - was still concealing his identity, and it was suggested that the book had been put together by an Army Medical Service Corps (non-physician) administrator who'd served in Korea.

Whether it matches the AMA's carefully cultivated *Marcus Welby, M.D.* image or not, the voice you find in *MASH: A Novel About Three Army Doctors* is *PRECISELY* what you should expect to hear from American doctors of "the Greatest Generation" (the guys who preceptor'd me), the "Boomers," and most of the "Generation Jones" and "Generation X" guys I've gotten to know over the years.

All that heavydoug's clumsy comment betrays is his complete lack of familiarity with how American physicians and surgeons are educated, trained, and think - and how we speak our minds when we're not dealing with patients, media root-weevils, and malpractice lawyers.

As a group, American physicians are not particularly reverent people, in either the religious sense or that which passes for tradition. Such an inclination interferes with advancement in standard of care.

And while we're definitely "chain of command" types, we have no respect whatsoever for arbitrary authority.

Which is why, heavydoug, the Democrats sincerely hate our guts.

And we reciprocate.

--

Heavy Doug @ 9:31 am et al
Thank you, and as you've commented to others, SJDoc hasn't paid attention to the common concept of looking before leaping.

He failed to observe that my informational posting showed no signs of Obama/Wright advocacy but simply tried to explain better and more deeply what is beyond SJDoc's capacity to understand. If he's actually a doctor, I hope he specializes in trimming toenails, that would probably be more credit than he deserves.

I'm not nearly so enamored of the civil rights movement as you seem to be in what little I've read in your observations on the subject. I validated myself without a single penny from the Government and prefer to identify with independent personal responsibility as the best and most effective way to achieve the American Dream, that's not to say that our USA was the picture of perfection in the immediate aftermath of World War II but the creation of programs that ultimately did little more than create a permanent underclass, that is, minorities, has not served us well.

I have personally encountered and experienced more personal indignity than Barack Obama ever dreamed of, there was no government entity to give me a hand up nor did I seek a handout. Would it have been easier had I not been a minority? I doubt it, for the many non minorities that I easily surpassed in the absence of any affirmative action programs proves to me that they had no more or less of an advantage than did I. Perhaps they may have been spared from some of the continuing racism of the era in which my formative years took place but that's just part of an ongoing education which works both ways. Through my own actions, it was simple enough to find alternative ways of dealing with barriers while, at the same time, the fact of being able to overcome them operated as an object lesson to those who observed a minority surpassing them.

Heavy Doug @ 9:31 am et al ~
Life is a two way street with a few potholes, once you learn where they are, you develop a sense of how to get around them. Eventually, these repair on their own accord. It's my contention that the CRA foisted upon us by Kennedy/Johnson was the worst piece of legislation followed only by Medicare and all of the other left liberal programs designed and calculated to create a class of dependent people who were provided with entitlement programs upon which the liberal socialist policies of the Democratic Party is foundationed upon under the guise of caring more deeply for the underclass who had the same choices in life that were available to me or anyone fortunate enough to have been born in the USA.

The entirety of the Obama family, including Michelle have had over 30 years of the best education money can buy.........all at someone else's expense.

I paid my own way.






Lilly
I don't think most folks want to "outlaw" churches like Mr. Wright's. You point out that there is an acceptance and admiration among his congregants for him.
That's fine. I think it's lamentable but people are free to listen to whatever they want, and to cheer it, and to fund it, which they do as you point out.
At issue is whether Mr. Obama's culture (which is a composite of deeply held values) is consistent with being president of all the people. It seems at variance with a great many, and they too are free to vote/not vote on that basis. Why would that be wrong?

You have pointed out that we should "understand" him. I think many do.
What I'm saying is that it's possible to do that, and further even to hold him harmless for it, and still not want him in the White House.

Fortunately, I don't have to decide based on personal issues, as his votes and stance on the issues I consider important eliminated him from my consideration (long ago).
I do think that people who are heavily into the "personal" are going to be increasingly disappointed. Actually, I know several black people who do not want him to be president because they feel he's too inexperienced and will thus fail. They don't want that for their first black president. So, there are all kinds of views on this. All of them interesting.

Doc
Please refer to pjal's post at 1:11.



It is obvious you not a real Doctor.

Be proud of the person you are. If you have to lie make friends and impress people, they aren't worth it.

You are still a person no matter what your jobs is.

You may not even have a job, but keep trying and one day you might just get one.



pjal's lapse into ad hominem
--
As opposed to simple insult, *argumentum ad hominem* is Wikily described as:

"...replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."


Which describes pjal's post of 1:11 PM to the proverbial "T," especially his wonderful address to my ability to get a living, thus:

"Now I'm developing a better understanding of the difficulties associated with our health care system when people like SJDoc are permitted to practice medicine let alone be allowed to mix with other normal human beings."


How like the Mafioso's mindset is pjal's.

"Nice place you've got here, doc. I'd hate to see something happen to it."


Beyond that, though, there's pjal's comment on Obama's GPA, clainming that he's:

"...not so emptyheaded not to recognize that anyone who succeeds to heading the Harvard Law Review and attains summa c*m laude honorariums is usually on the other end of the intelligence quotient than a lamebrained half baked and probably ill-conceived example of subhumanity such as you."


Revealing not only pjal's bile (got calculi to go with that?) but also his ignorance about how students like Barry-boy suck up for grades and the other favors of their professors.

Ever think to wonder how he scored in his LSATs? Or whether he would've made Law Review with a lower cutaneous melanin content in an atmosphere of "Liberal" white guilt?

Tsk.

--




SJDoc, ever the Coward
who still is using his head as a proctoscopic tool and has yet to figure out how to extricate from that dark place while his eyes, ears and throat are crammed full of the surrounding contents of his large intestine.

This poor and pathetic creature who feigns his faux pseudointellectual KKK approach to promote his Deity cannot even begin to grasp the simplest concepts of humankind but resorts instead to his own form of grandstanding that exposes him for the cretin which, with every post, he reveals himself to be while carefully entrapped in the murky atmosphere where he finds his greatest material.

People like him should find a new home, they're waiting for you with open arms at MoveON.org. Please first launder your KKK robe before entering their hallowed halls

Greenberg
your disagrements with your Rabbi are spiritual and he is in Temple, not running for president, and neither are you. But Obama IS running for president and he is NOT disagreeing with ideas which if put into effect would gravely harm the US. Can you disagree and support Hamas at the same time? Should be perfectly feasible after praising Obama with faint dams.

pjal
In a lot of countries education is free. Talk about maximizing your country's potential!

We cripple our young people with massive debt at the beginning of their careers.

Both Obama and his wife, had a lot of loan debt, as did I.

Here's another way we hurt ourselves.

Not having universal healcare.

Conservatives scream bloody murder at the thought, but imagine how much more competitive businesses could be if they didn't have to foot the bill?

How can our guys bid competively when they have to figure in this major expense in every decision?


heavydoug fixates on identity
--
In the 5 July 1993 issue of *The New Yorker,* cartoonist Peter Steiner captioned his famous depiction of a pooch perched at a home computer explaining to a fellow canine thus:

"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."


And then we've got heavydoug, who seems to be yet another putz who (out of feelings of personal inadequacy, perhaps; so much of diagnosis is necessarily deductive) just *HAS* to impugn my veracity without addressing my observations or arguments.

Gotta be some schumuck like this everywhere y'go. But if I can put up with quarterly Medical Department staff meetings, I can shoulder this cross as well.

Look, heavydoug, if you find something substantive to which you object in my posts on this thread (or elsewhere), by all means bring it up. I try like hell to fact-check what I write, but posting in a "Comments" box on the fly isn't like taking a clinical studies report manuscript through peer review.

If you find something in need of correction - or a reasoned argument to make in contravention - I'm all for it.

But if all you've got is this half-witted creebing about how you don't think I've qualified - by dint of decades spent with blood and Betadyne soaking my socks - to speak my mind as a physician, why don't you just leave the computer and go literally puck yourself?

You'll be accomplishing precisely the same thing, and with less tendency to sticky up your keyboard.

--

pjal
I know it is hard to pass up a pork-chop like our good doctor.

But try to take high ground.

He probably has two black eyes and is missing a tooth after that last one.

There is something to be said for "tough love", however.


heavydoug
The exuberant amount of money insurance companies are aloud to charge is inexcusible. That is a problem for businesses and I agree with you on the toll it takes on businesses. I do have a problem with universal healthcare as the solution becouse it will be WE THE PEOPLE paying the bill not only for the citizens but the illegals that are sure to flood the country. Especially with the 3 liberals running for president, when Amnesty is granted.

SJ Doc
Okay, now I believe you.




(sheesh)

pjal puts up three paragraphs at 4:48 PM
--
...with no relevance to the thread whatsoever, nothing factual (Roman Catholics aren't allowed in the KKK, putzie), and no indication that he's got anything to contribute to any discussion of Barack Hussein's "identity" confabulation.

So let's just see how we can address Mocha Marvin's substance and style while keeping ol' pjal on the prod.


-------------
"I wish I was a Negro
.With lots of Negro soul
.So I could stay true to my ethnic roots
.And still play rock 'n' roll

"If I was a funky Negro
.Eatin' soul food barbeques
.I wouldn't have to sing
.The middle-class liberal well-intentioned blues

"Intentioned blues
.Intentioned blues ...

"But I am not a Negro (c'mon!)
.Not a Red Man nor a Mex (join me, kids!)
.I'm a member of the oppressing color
.Language, age, and sex

"I sympathize with the Arab cause
.I feel for the put-upon Jews
.And I keep singing
.The middle-class liberal
.Humanitarian
.Meaningful dialogue
.We are all responsible
.Well-intentioned blues

"Intentioned blues
.Intentioned blues"

-- Christopher Guest, *National Lampoon Radio Hour* (1975)


"Hell, I'm not prejudiced. I hate everybody just the same."

-- Unsourced

heavydoug wrote:
"Here's another way we hurt ourselves.

Not having universal healcare.

Conservatives scream bloody murder at the thought, but imagine how much more competitive businesses could be if they didn't have to foot the bill?

How can our guys bid competively when they have to figure in this major expense in every decision?"

Whether it's the government or corporation who claims to be paying for it, ultimately it is the working (that is, productive) members of society who foot the bill.

I don't get a choice about my health insurance (and therefore, to some extent, my health care providors) -- my employer "pays" for it (as I'm sure you know, Economics 101 teaches that I'm actually paying for it), but I'd much rather they pay me the dollars and let me shop for my own insurance. To the extent that they will not, my freedom to choose is nonexistent, unless I'm willing to seek other employment.

Imagine that concept but with the full weight of the government taking one's money and dictating health care decisions. Do you want some bureaucrat in DC limiting your health care options?

If you recall, HillaryCare included legal penalties for seeking treatment outside of her totalitarian system. Is that what you want for America, that free people are prosecuted for seeking to provide for their own health care and making their own decisions?

back it up Heavy Doug
Tell me, chapter and verse, which countries are you referring to, please enlighten me. Brussels "Free University" in name only? South Africa? Where?

No, Barack's Mama, Daddy, Barack at Punahou, Occiedental, Columbia, Harvard Law, Michelle at Princeton and Harvard, her brother....on the house, thank you, not a dime in student loans.

The current student loan programs shackling our present day youngsters are another liberal concept gone bad, getting worse as is the subprime mess we see unfolding before our very eyes.

You pose a genuine question:

How can our guys bid competively when they have to figure in this major expense in every decision?________________________


How about the way I did? Before the liberal leftist socialists demanded the right to take care of me?

How about not dropping out of high school at a 40% or more rate ever since these programs kicked into place?

How about going back to the days when an entire high school class graduated, got scholarships, worked their way, took night jobs, and didn't get any government assistance? Basing their worth on their willingness and not on their color?

Not having universal health care? How do you think we got into the mess we're in today, do you have the slightest clue?

Were you an adult in the years before Medicare began? Before group health insurance? Before the FEDERAL Government, spurred on by Teddy Kennedy imposed their will upon the entire medical/hospital system? Have you the slightest concept of what the genuine needs were then?
_________________________________

Had any of these many liberal/socialist programs had half the virtue they promised to deliver, why are we even talking about it today?

In a nutshell, WHERE IS THE GREAT SOCIETY?
____________________________________





















ACP
Good point. But you guys had a long time to(and still can) fix immigration.

Now it's been too long and all these families are here and the Dems are "nice" they won't kick them out.

But you have to blame Bush and the Repubs for most of this.

Health Care
These are the types of conversations I enjoy because I learn so much.

Professor, this is the way I thought of it, tell if there is a flaw in my logic.

If it is a choice between the gov. or business paying, as a business owner I feel penalized because the larger I get(the more employees) the higher my expense is.

If the gov. paid it, that is more money, a lot more money, to invest and hire.



pjal:I think what changed was the cost of healthcare. When I was a kid the doctor would come to our house, with his little black bag.

But now, you got your MRI's, this and that and it costs thousands.

And I am telling you personally all my sisters have tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

I would invite you to explore the subject.

To pjal, Who Is In a Time Warp
Back in the day when everybody paid for college by working at the soda fountain evenings, tuition was somewhat cheaper. I remember paying $15 a credit 40 years ago; at five courses per semester, that cost $150 a year. 25 years ago I took some summer graduate courses on the campus of a posh undergraduate school and we were all aghast to learn that the undergraduate tuition there was $16,000 a year; last week I saw in the paper that tuition at my local state university (much less fancy) just went up to $20,000. You mentioned Princeton: just now I googled it, and tuition is $34,000 a year. That's $135,000 over four four years and doesn't include room & board etc.

And I doubt that a time ever existed when "the entire class got scholarships".

Re countries where higher education is free, I just looked up Sweden. The website says that college and professional schools are free for both Swedes and foreigners. Wouldn't that be a better way for a country to spend its money than blowing up Iraq or paying its CEOs $100 million a year? Wouldn't it be fine if any kid with the smarts could become an engineer or a doctor or a librarian?


It may seem lame
But one of the reasons I won't vote for B.O. is while watching a news clip the other day, while the national anthem was playing in the clip, all the people in the clip were standing with their hands over their heart - except B.O. his hands were clasped near his crotch. Now if you don't have enough love for this country to place your hand over your heart and honor all our fallen troops who have fought for that flag, why run for president? In my mind this man has little, if any, reverence or love for this country.

To christtheprofessor
You don't want a government employee making your health care decisions but apparently have no problem with an insurance company employee making them. It was insurance companies that engineered the wonderful system we have now in which patients having major surgery aren't allowed to sleep overnight at the hospital the night before. I heard of one 78 year-old patient having an 8-hour liver surgery who had to drink a gallon of Go-Litely laxative the night before, report to the hospital at 5 AM, and lived 100 miles from the hospital: this is inhumane. Women having had a mastectomy have been sent home a few hours after surgery. Elderly patients who have had a major stroke are discharged to a home where they live alone without any assistance at all. Doctors are told how much time they can spend with a patient and what diagnostic tests they can order. Prescriptions are arbitrarily changed without even informing the doctor. I just read on another board about a patient's insurance company refusing to cover a drug because it was "experimental" in spite of the fact it was FDA-approved. Many accepted treatments are refused as experimental when in fact they are standard-of-practice. And to those who like to say that we get care free if insurance pays for it, my insurance premiums are $6000 a year, and that's not free.

Correction
In my previous post the cost of five three-credit courses per semester, two semesters, @ $15 per credit should have read $225 a year, not $150. Still a lot less than today.


heavydoug
I think you missed something in my post. Neither the corporation nor the government pays for healthcare -- the productive employees pay for it.

Just as neither the corporation nor the government pays for Social (in)Security. The government takes 15% of people's checks (part before the employee, part directly from the company before the emplyee even sees it), then turns around and gives it to somebody else (note that I'm not begrudging people who have paid in something out of it -- just that the system is a huge mandated Ponzi schem and is likely unconstitutional to boot). If people were allowed to keep that 15% and invested it, they'd be a lot better off upon retirement. (If they didn't invest it, oh well).

I'm heading out for a bit, but I'll check back later and respond if you leave a post.

Have a good one.

Obama, the Manipulator, the Racist
Character, honesty, integrity and judgement are the issues here. If he demands retribution (one example is Imus) for racial slurs projected towards blacks, then I demand the same for racial slurs against white, Jews and anyone else, whether it is from Obama himself ("Typical white person") or Reverend Wright.

I don't care where he came from. But I do care about honesty and obviously starting out his campaign with his book of lies.

Obama seems to think he can do or say anything he wants and when it's questioned, pulls the race card. It seems no one is allowed to scrutinize, if they do he gets to get up and give a speech or call up a media outlet on his side (The Huffington Post) to get a statement out or appear on shows or with reporters who don't aggressively question him (eg. Larry King, The View)

The media has been giving him a free ride. The media should be objective and there shoudn't be so obvious pro-Obama media people covering any story on him. (Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, Roland Martin, Donna Brazille, a Super Delegate)

If this had been anyone else and they had all the different questionable things coming out about them, the media would be all over them.

My God, people this is a man running for the most important position in the world and is someone that little is known about. He should be getting all the scrutiny there is.

He's the one injecting race into this election, whenever it suits his purpose. (Putting ads up in Pennsylvania w/his white Grandmother...now he needs her.)

lilly
It's Chris, not the other.

I don't have a problem with an insurance company making the decisions if I've researched the company and chosen that company, and they live up to their contractual obligations. I'll live (or die) with the consequences of my decisions -- it's called personal responsibility.

I'm no expert in health care by any stretch, but from what I've read, prices started to skyrocket when Medicare started picking up the tab. In other words, when the deep pocketed government replaced private insurance, look what happened.

With respect to the laundry list of things that insurance companies specify, do you honestly believe that the government would be more lenient in what doctors and hospitals can do? Seriously?

Why is it that people so frequently come from Canada and Europe to the US to get treatment that thhey can't get via THEIR socialized health care systems?

As I mentioned above to HD, I'm heading out the door but I'll check back later.

Peace out.

Health Care
There are certain things that belong to the "common".

We don't charge for the police.

Or the fire dept.

Last I checked Everybody gets sick at sometime in their life.


That, should bankrupt us?

Ridiculous!

Government making your choices
Do you honestly believe the government will make better choices for your healthcare than insurance companies do now. The way the government already runs this country it is a scary thought to how well we would be taken care of if they make our health care choices. I read Lilly's explanation about decisions that are made, those elderly are probably on medicaid and that should be your answer to socialised healthcare.

Obama and his Minister
You cite your experience with your Reform Rabbi who suggested a slow reaction to 9/11 rather than being rash. But your Rabbi did not and, I assume, has not since then said that the U.S. deserved that attack or has said G-d damn America. I cannot agree that you were in a similar quandary.

Dr. Leonard Tulman

healthcare
Here is an example of limited choices. My doughter is a single mother of 2, she works part time and goes to school full time and has state healthcare for her and her children. I am grateful that it is available to her in this time of her life. However a few months ago she hurt her neck and her doctor wanted her to have physical therapy, the state healthcare does not cover it she had to suffer for 4 months. It did heal on it's own. I honestly believe that government programs will have limited recourses becouse it,s federally funded. We will ultimately pay for it in taxes, we do now for medicaid and medicare, but it will be limited and detrimental to all of us in the long run.

Professor
I do not follow, your logic.

You say the corporations nor the gov. pay. But a lot of corporations do pay their employees insurance.(that is another problem insurance tied to your employer, what happens when you change jobs?)

If you want to say it's the people not the gov. but the people are the gov. we the people so it's obvious it the people that fund the gov..

And I don't know how many seniors you know but even the thought of taking their social security is reckless, and cruel.

EASTLAKE JOE

.....That wasn't Obama's crotch ...that was his stimulous package ....all you have to do to get it is to grab your ankles .....COLOSSUS

pjal

I have to hand it to you young man. You do walk the talk. I am afraid many would get off your train before arriving at the station. You have that unusual quality of being on both sides at the same time, just apparently. But surely I am not the only one who waded through so many posts just to discover you do actually have a brain and some experience.

Have a good day..

PS: SJ Doc is actually a lot brighter than you initially realized. He has his style.



christtheprofessor
Re travel tourism, there was a big article in my paper the other day about Americans going to India for major surgery because it's so much less expensive there. The nurses and doctors have trained here or in England and care is said to be good. And they do bizarre things like let you stay in the hospital recovering for two weeks instead of, climb off the operating table and go hail down a taxi, like here. Also I had a Hungarian-born friend who went back to Hungary to have two months' worth of extensive dental work done and the cost was so much less than it would have been here that the difference paid for her transportation and an apartment there for the two months. So travel tourism works in both directions.

PS if Roe is overturned and abortion becomes illegal here we will see plenty of travel tourism. That good old Republican entrepreneurial spirit will take over the abortion business.

heavydoug wrote:
"Health Care
There are certain things that belong to the "common".

We don't charge for the police.

Or the fire dept."

The police and fire departments are paid for out of monies collected in local jurisdictions. The locals can assess their needs and determine the appropriate cost and thus the tax.

If the city, state, county, municipality or whatever decides they need more police or fire protection, they increase local taxes.

And the people they elect to control both costs and revenues are local.





Professor
And that sounds logical to apply to healthcare also.


Am I missing something, or do you not understand your fellow Americans are not receiving preventative healthcare and the costs will be staggering?

Certain things, the "market" just doesn't work for.

Police, fire, hospital.


common sense, Prof.

heavydoug wrote:
"You say the corporations nor the gov. pay. But a lot of corporations do pay their employees insurance.(that is another problem insurance tied to your employer, what happens when you change jobs?)"

No, again, it's Economics 101. An employee produces more income for the corporation than the company spends on the employee, otherwise they would not keep the employee on. A lot of that is worked out via cost accounting, such that the cost of, say, a Human Resources employee charged to overhead and allocated across product/service lines.

So, if they pay an employee $50K but they spend another $5K in overhead costs to provide insurance, to the corporation, that's just $55K they had to spend to pay to employ that person -- it matters not whether that other $5K went to the insurance company or to the employee.

The point is, the employee produced for the company at least $55K or they would not have been employed in the first place (the company has to cover its costs, after all).

So the company pays nothing, and the cost is borne by the employee, they just never see it in their checks.

Just like the government produces none of the revenues that are used to pay Social Security retirees.

Also, I never said to cut them off. I said that the program is bogus, and I say now that we need to get rid of it, as it is a huge waste of resources. Let people keep the 15% per year of income the government takes from them and invest it, and there will be no need for Social Security.

heavydoug
The market worked fine for healthcare until Medicare, that is the government, decided to step into it.

lilly
When Americans go to India, do they pay out of pocket or does the Indian goverment pay for it?

Look at the totality of it, Lilly -- the cost of living is much lower in India than here.

Is the Indian government subsidizing all those Dell operators we call when we have computer problems?

heavydoug
Again, you miss my point. Local governments provide the best services because the local reps know exactly what their needs are. Mayberry didn't need 20 policemen because they didn't have that much crime -- ergo, the local elected officials didn't levy confiscatory taxes against their neighbors to pay for that which they didn't need. So they made do with Andy and Barney.

If socialism is so wonderful, there are plenty of places to live in that Utopia -- Europe is a start. Why not go live there and leave self-sufficient, independent Americans to live in peace?

Mr Greenberg is not a conservative
kThis column shows that Mr. Greenberg is in no meaningful way a conservative. If he really is a conservative, he should have had no common ground with Obama on anything, least of all this issue. If he is a conservative, he should have left his temple after experiencing the things he reports in this column, and never looked back. Whatever other merits his rabbi might have, the rabbi's error on the abortion issue (along with other liberal views Greenberg's rabbi has) should disqualify him for this role in Mr. Greenberg's life. A real conservative does not tolerate error--religious, moral, or political.

Mr Greenberg is in reality one of us, a tolerant, understanding liberal. I look forward to some future column when Mr. Greenberg comes out (politically).

Gestell
Yes, he seems to swing with the prevailing wind.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, he's the one who coined the term "Slick Willie" in reference to Billy J. Clinton.

For that prescience, if nothing else, we conservatives will always remember Greenberg fondly.

Be free, Mr. Greenberg. Enjoy your wild side.

Professor
You proposed:

"So, if they pay an employee $50K but they spend another $5K in overhead costs to provide insurance, to the corporation, that's just $55K they had to spend to pay to employ that person -- it matters not whether that other $5K went to the insurance company or to the employee."

But:


I say, if the insurance company is not in the equation(because of universal healthcare) the extra 5000 is left to the employer(to invest)and the employee(to spend) minus a tax to fund the program.



Voila.

heavydoug
Are you serious?

You expect the same goverment that pays for $600 toilet seats to suddenly become the height of efficiency?

I know Medicare has really reduced costs....

heavydoug
Did you ever notice that one couldn't deliver a letter or package overnight via the US Postal Service until FedEx started doing business, at any cost, short of chartering a plane?

These days, one can do it at a reasonable rate, via FedEx, UPS, or the Postal Service. What do you think would happen to the cost, nay, the availability, of overnight service, if FedEx and UPS were to disappear?

Professor
christheprofessor writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 9:27 PM
heavydoug
Again, you miss my point. Local governments provide the best services because the local reps know exactly what their needs are. Mayberry didn't need 20 policemen because they didn't have that much crime -- ergo, the local elected officials didn't levy confiscatory taxes against their neighbors to pay for that which they didn't need. So they made do with Andy and Barney.

If socialism is so wonderful, there are plenty of places to live in that Utopia -- Europe is a start. Why not go live there and leave self-sufficient, independent Americans to live in peace?



Mayberry worked fine cause good old doc made his rounds. People could pay him.

Now it is too expensive.


Everyone in Mayberry should pitch in to buy a MRI scanner so it wouldn't cost each individual so much.

American socialist policies have been very sucessful, there is no need to travel. You being a teacher and all are of fan of public libraries aren't you?


Public librarys have made America possible. All the presidents, and doctors, and Professors that have educated themselves there. It is a socialist institution. it's free.

What's the attitude about, Prof?

heavydoug
No attitude here... I do resent people who want to take the country in a direction that has proven to be detrimental to virtually every other nation that has gone that direction. If the socialist Utopias are so wonderful, why not live in one of them and leave the US as is?

What you are suggesting is taking 1/7th of the US economy and putting it under government control. That doesn't work.

I do agree that for some things, government make sense - I just don't believe in it for healthcare.

Look at roads -- largely planned and funded by taxpayers (via the government) but private companies do the majority of the work.

The Soviet Union had their infamous Five Year Plans. Is that the direction we really want to head?

Ever wonder why so many pharmaceuticals are developed here? It's the profit motive. Ever wonder why so many medical breakthroughs occur here? The profit motive. Why so many technological breakthroughs occur here? Same reason.

As soon as the government takes control, expect innovation to slow to a crawl. As well as efficiency. It'll be the Driver's License Office experience, writ large.

Healthcare?
I read the other day that England has done a real good job with decreasing the wait time in the emergency rooms. If they are real busy, they don't let the ambulances bring the patients in. They make them wait in the ambulances in the parking lot till they are able to take care of them therefore making the wait in the E.R. nothing. There you go your government controlled health care at work.....WOOOEEEE!

Professor

Maybe it's just time Americans started controlling their country.


We have the internet now and and tools like c-span.

It's time to change. You see these young kids out here voting carrying signs?


I don't know if you noticed but our healthcare system is circling the drain.

The people are not benefiting from it. You know like the economy?


What do you think about those big wall street bonanza paydays, while minimum wage didn't rise for over a decade?

What will you do when you get sick and the insurance company screws you with a loophole?

And what is this leave "us" alone?

Maybe you should think about finding some stone age backward thinking country to move to.

Heavy Doug


http://www.kau.se/about/facts.lasso

The widesweeping claim that there are numerous countries in Europe that offer free university educations, notwithstanding Sweden....which by my count is ONE Country that's smaller than many of our States does have an international program that is limited in scope to a small handful.

We often make the mistake of attempting to compare our country of 300 million people spread out over many thousands of miles in all directions to small countries who have few people, most of whom are centrally located near centrally located urban areas.

The WHO and UN will tell you that France has a far better system than ours, until and unless you recognize how it is actually being funded and begin to draw the dynamics of their small country to ours, taking into consideration the pay scales of their physicians to our own and how they are, as is true of most of the world, gain a free ride on our technology, expertise and training.

Sweden has only 4 Universities that amount to anything, Karlstad being the largest with a student body of 10,000 undergrads and 200 doctoral candidates and that's the largest of their majors.

One can hardly make the case that we are in a position to adopt the same system when many of our lesser State Universities have enrollments many times larger than that of all the Swedish Universities put together.

We cannot align our unique position as a World Power with all of the attendant responsibilities which burden all of us up against much smaller and far less diverse countries that don't have the many contemporary problems which, to a large degree have evolved because of an ever increasing focus on entitlement programs and a heightened sense of dependency on larger and more comprehensive programs that we cannot afford to support.


Heavydoug
You want a loophole? Check out the GIANT loophole in gov. healthcare in my comments above. Now there's a loophole!!! We'll have the same thing here if you let them.

Professor
Your points:

I do agree that for some things, government make sense - I just don't believe in it for healthcare.

Look at roads -- largely planned and funded by taxpayers (via the government) but private companies do the majority of the work.

The Soviet Union had their infamous Five Year Plans. Is that the direction we really want to head?

Ever wonder why so many pharmaceuticals are developed here? It's the profit motive. Ever wonder why so many medical breakthroughs occur here? The profit motive. Why so many technological breakthroughs occur here? Same reason.


Point by Point


1)The tolls from the private companys are killing the truckers.


2)We're not Russians. We're Americans we do a lot of things other countries can't.

3)They develop a whole lot of new medicines in other countries. We are falling behind.









heavydoug
Americans have controlled our country since July 4, 1776, in case you hadn't noticed.

Our system worked just fine until the slow poison of socialism was introduced by FDR via the New Deal. Personal responsibility, self-sufficiency, and indepenence have been in a decline ever since.

Our economy is fine -- it has its ups and downs, of course, as it is cyclical in nature. But I have no long-term worries about it.

If people aren't happy with minimum wage, they can get another job. They can do what is necessary without expecting Big Brother to step in and negate market forces. They might even start a small business of their own, but the federal government, with all its taxes and regulations, makes that exceedingly difficult these days.

Regarding Wall Street, if a CEO makes her company profitable, she should be compensated as the stockholders see fit. Not a fan of ripping off the stockholders, but I'd rather see the occasional ripping off of investors than the sustained fleecing of ALL taxpayers that socialism embodies (see my previous comments on Social Security).

Do you recall the riots in France a while back? Do you know what they were about? The French knew they couldn't sustain the lack of productivity inherent in their 30-hour, can't fire an unproductive work week -- they were going under. When they tried to fix it, riots ensued.

I'll take capitalism over socialism any day. Damn shame you are too scared to try it.

And I'll take this "stone-age backward thinking" country any day -- good of you to admit what you think of America (since we aren't the socialist Utopia you want us to be, I can only assume you are talking about us).

pjal
our systems hobbles our young people, can we agree on that?

So it's got to change if we want our young people to suceed.

That is a fact. It cost too much to get an education in America.

We have debt coming out of every orifice.

You don't like my idea fine. I'm listening for yours.

But I tell you. This is self-flagellation on a national scale.

heavydoug
The tolls from private companies? Excuse me? The taxes that private truckers pay dwarfs any tolls they may pay on private roads.

Yes, we're not Russians. That's the point. You imply that the best American minds are better than the best Russian minds. It wasn't the minds that differed -- it was the SYSTEM IN WHICH THEY WORKED. The Five Year Plans failed because a central government can't successfully control all aspects of nations as large as ours.

There's no doubt that medicines are developed elsewhere. Part of the problem is the almost 10-year process required to get FDA approvale here. I seriously doubt, however, that we're falling behind. Got a link?


Professor
1)This country's prosperity was built on a fre, socialized road system.

The open road is part of our heritage.

2)If it's not a central government it will have to be states, counties, mayberrys or whatever
but this stay the course while it's not working is wrong-headed.

3)You need a link for that?

China, Europe, Brazil everybody's gaining.

You look at the dollar lately?

Heavy Doug, et al - 2
Nor is it hideous and heinously greedy insurance companies which fuel the costs of health care, nor is it driven by greedy contingent fee lawyers who seek to find malpractice lurking in every corner of our hospitals or physicians offices either. That all of these together play some role, there can be no question but the foundation which began the process rests squarely with the intervention of Federal involvement in a process that had, up until then, been very well managed by State and County.

I made a career in the health delivery system from a time both before and after the implementation of Medicare/Medicaid and was instrumental in the management of how the system was first implemented and then saw how this ill conceived program then pervaded and polluted the entire health care delivery system. During my career, I was lucky enough to come into contact with some of the finest physicians in the USA and personally led the effort to get the insurance industry to provide coverage for bypass surgery when it first began as an experimental procedure. I ended my career earlier than most as head of an expert witness firm and as the first Court Appointed Expert in my field of endeavor.


Heavy Doug, et al - 3
I remain convinced that the UHC systems advocated by the Democratic party will only lead to furthering the bankruptcy of our systems even more rapidly.

I am not in a time warp, my comments simply take yesterdays reality on a journey of evolvement through to the present day as an individual who has been closely associated in many ways with the various elements which have surfaced in this artice that began as Barack Obama's Identity and has mushroomed into a general forum which draws the distinctions between the conservative and liberal polarity which we know exists.

Would enjoy exchanging further with you, but we have gone far afield off the playing field. If you or anyone else wishes to take further excursions, I'm at pjallittle@gmail.com...feel free.

Unfortunately, it will occur that even people of like minds will clash as schoolchildren when losing perspective of the issues and cannot take as good as they give.

That does not apply to you, at least you have had the capacity to make an effort to have a civil exchange for which I thank you.

I have, unfortunately, little patience for bigots, even those that I might otherwise share political values with who, by demonstration, show little capacity for understanding that it's okay to give credit to another for their accomplishments notwithstanding that they may have been given HUSSEIN as a middle name or cannot remain in the kitchen when the degree of warmth exceeds his comfort zone.

Professor
You built a house on a bad foundation.

You started out:


"Our system worked just fine until the slow poison of socialism was introduced by FDR via the New Deal. Personal responsibility, self-sufficiency, and indepenence have been in a decline ever since."



You ever hear of the "Great Depression".

The highest point of middle class properity was in the 70,s.

So as you can see there are problems with you statements.

You said:

"If people aren't happy with minimum wage, they can get another job. They can do what is necessary without expecting Big Brother to step in and negate market forces. They might even start a small business of their own, but the federal government, with all its taxes and regulations, makes that exceedingly difficult these days."


Get another job. You tell that to a single mother waiting tables.

I know real people not super heroes.


You don't know what those riots are about.


There are riots in this country you don't know about.

Two cops chased a black kid and he got electrocuted or something.

You'll have to find the link on your own.

heavydoug
(1) I've tried repeatedly to explain it, but I guess you cannot grasp the concept that there is no such thing as a free lunch. There ARE no free roads. Please take a basic course in economics. You are embarassing yourself.

(2) What the hell are you talking about?

(3) You made a specific statement that we were falling behind in new medicines. I asked specifically for a link. Don't try to change the subject.

heavydoug
The electrocution riot was just one in a series of riots. There have been many "Pugeot-burning" parties in France. I'm talking about the ones that were job-related.

Yes, I've heard of the Great Depression. My father, born in 1920, lived through it. And is a staunch conservative as a result. His family refused to go on what was then called "relief," and they did what they had to do. They were real people, not super heroes.

FDR's policies exacerbated Great Depression. Here's a link (I know it's against your nature to read, but here it is anyhow):

http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depres sion/dp/140005477X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206 848429&sr=1-1

Heavydoug
If you make 35000 a year and go out and buy a house and a brand new car, party every night, max out the creditcards, what is the expected result? Bankruptcy!!
The government does this and what do they do? Print more money and raise taxes. Problem is, when you raise taxes to the point that no one can afford to spend the companies go out of buisiness and more need the handout. What happens to your social programs when more people are on the dole than paying taxes? Simplistic? Probably but simply true.

eastlake joe
I think we are wasting our time.

In heavydoug's Utopia, there is a money fountain, and it pays for free healthcare, and free roads, and free libraries, and free lunches...

One more for Heavy Doug
You state the following:

our systems hobbles our young people, can we agree on that?

Yes, to a large extent you're absolutely right in your conclusions but we differ very substantially in how these may be corrected. This is not a subject that lends itself to a quick or limited response in a forum setting, there are so many aspects to consider. The common solution of the Democrat is to seek remedy through governmental intervention which those of us on the conservative right see as part of the cause and not the solution. The Democrat mindset refuses to explore alternatives which do not hew to your traditional entitlement oriented notion that everyone should have what everyone else has as a matter of inherent right and imposes no standards for earned achievement.

There are deep societal implications which extend beyond paying for books and tuitions or providing loans which you observe in your next query.
______________________________________________

So it's got to change if we want our young people to suceed.
_______________________________________________


Has it ever occurred to you that it will not change until our young people are themselves compelled to change? It's called, among other things, parenting, also discipline, also pride of accomplishment, also earning the right, also that the strong succeed, the weak fail, it's the very basis for civilization and evolvement.
______________________________________________


One more for Heavy Doug ~ 2
That is a fact. It cost too much to get an education in America.
_____________________________________________

Yes, it does, you won't get an argument from me there. But if the school systems in our USA have more loyalty to the Union than they do to their students and the best that our Unionized Public School systems can accomplish is a consistent inability to provide a higher rate of graduation levels than we've seen over the paet 40 years, isn't it a colossal waste of money to keep insisting that we maintain a status quo?

How and why do so many parents place their children into private schools at their own expense?
_________________________________________________



We have debt coming out of every orifice.
_______________________________________________

And very little to show for it.
_______________________________________________
You don't like my idea fine. I'm listening for yours.

But I tell you. This is self-flagellation on a national scale.
_______________________________________________

I have yet to see your idea, I must have missed it and am unwilling to search through 100 postings to find it. But if it is to provide free education for all, without offering a means of paying for it, without establishing conditions that demand and insist upon quality at other than some obscure bureaucratic station in Washington, D.C., then I'd have to say that this will only add to the experiments of the Great Society which have failed to accomplish that which they were intended to solve or we would not be sitting behind our computer in 2008 continuing to lament over the conditions which we both agree exist.

.
.

heavydoug
One more point regarding the Great Depression, since brought it up. Here's a quote about the book I linked, from it's liner, by Nobel Laureate (in Economics) Milton Friedman:

"Admirers of FDR credit his New Deal with restoring the American economy after the disastrous contraction of 1929—33. Truth to tell–as Powell demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt–the New Deal hampered recovery from the contraction, prolonged and added to unemployment, and set the stage for ever more intrusive and costly government. Powell's analysis is thoroughly documented, relying on an impressive variety of popular and academic literature both contemporary and historical."

In case you missed that, here it is again: "the New Deal hampered recovery from the contraction, prolonged and added to unemployment, and set the stage for ever more intrusive and costly government."




Professor


1)Of course it's not a free lunch. It's is an expense we share as a community.

So when you get on the road you just drive.

If a company's tolls are to high, where the competion's road? Free market doesn't work. Sorry not with roads.


If there are only a few houses on some streets, how are just those few residents going to pay for that road? They can't. We pay for it because they are a part of the community. A lot of Americans live down long country roads.

2) you showed some trepidation at the thought of a central government controlling healthcare. I was merely suggesting it could be controlled on the state or county level.

3)I'm not about to go on an internet fishing expedition.

But I know the stem cell stuff is all overseas, and europe's always produced fine medical minds.

That's going to rise like everything else with econimic power.

We're borrowing the never before in history.

We're losing the space race too.

We're paying for Iraq.

Remember?

pjal
I thought we were discussing university's.

The reason public schools began was because at the time millons yes millions of children were not getting sufficient educations.

The free market was not handling the problem.


heavydoug wrote:
"If a company's tolls are to high, where the competion's road? Free market doesn't work. Sorry not with roads."

Those roads are built by the lowest bidder. I believe that's part of the free market.

Do you honestly believe that healthcare should be controlled at the state or local government level?

You say that we're borrowing like never before. I ask you, when have we ever before had as many people dependent upon the government as we have now?

I'll check back in the morning for your response -- they puppy is pawing at me to go to bed.

Have a great evening.

Professor

You quoted.

christheprofessor writes: Sunday, March, 30, 2008 12:13 AM
heavydoug
One more point regarding the Great Depression, since brought it up. Here's a quote about the book I linked, from it's liner, by Nobel Laureate (in Economics) Milton Friedman:

"Admirers of FDR credit his New Deal with restoring the American economy after the disastrous contraction of 1929—33. Truth to tell–as Powell demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt–the New Deal hampered recovery from the contraction, prolonged and added to unemployment, and set the stage for ever more intrusive and costly government. Powell's analysis is thoroughly documented, relying on an impressive variety of popular and academic literature both contemporary and historical."

In case you missed that, here it is again: "the New Deal hampered recovery from the contraction, prolonged and added to unemployment, and set the stage for ever more intrusive and costly government."






I do not make it a habit to base arguements, on single quotes, based on conjecture, about (of all things) economics.

I would suggest you don't either.

Nothing about economic situations like that could ever be definative.




Professor
leaving aside building the roads.

If it's a free market any company can raise it's Tolls when it wants to right?

But if there isn't another route of comparable distance, you Have to pay that toll.

Thus the market is not free.

It (the market)Just doesn't work with some things.

Goodnight.




Paul Greenberg's "I Can Identify"
Well, Paul, it seems like you're turning into a regular Obama apologist.
First, when you say, "I can identify with Barack Obama's not making a scene every time his pastor said something appalling," it raises the question of when, over a 20-year period, did Obama EVER make a scene over his pastor saying appalling things, except, when faced with a firestorm of controversy which was hurting his campaign, he had to confront the issue as a politician? He has not said, nor has any source yet reported, that he even did anything close to your flag waving example in your synagogue.
Second, as recently as his recent appearance on The View, Obama said that had Wright not retired, he would have had to leave that church. Sure, Wright's "retired" and can now continue being Obama's advisor in private, but that same church still has a congregation of hundreds, if not thousands, who are black liberationists. The facts that Wright's retired and the church recently took down its web site references to its Black Value System don't change that.
And, third, the fact that Obama condemned some of what Wright preached but not Wright himself, coupled with Obama's continued association with that church, coupled with Wright's replacement pastor apparently being a younger version of the same, should make any thinking person wonder: Is part of who Obama really is is that he's a black liberationist, too? If so, that's not very "post-racial," is it?

RME KRNL

heavydoug wrote:
"I do not make it a habit to base arguements, on single quotes, based on conjecture, about (of all things) economics.

I would suggest you don't either.

Nothing about economic situations like that could ever be definative."

I'm not basing my argument on a single quote -- I read the book (I just pulled it out to reread).

I posted the quote to indicate to you what one of the finest economists who ever lived thought of FDR's New Deal. If you think you know better than he about economics, well, there you have it.

But since you brought up the Great Depression, here's another quote by the late, great economist Milton Friedman, Nobel Laureate in Economics:

"The Great Depression, like most other periods of severe unemployment, was produced by government mismanagement rather than by any inherent instability of the private economy.”

I'm sure you will just dismiss Friedman's insight, in typical liberal fashion, because you simply know better. If only you could be in charge of the government, the economy would be perfect (tell that to the Soviets, Chinese, North Koreans, Cubans and the basket-case Europeans living under socialism).

ctp & heavydoug - the Great Depression
--
christtheprofessor quotes Milton Friedman above, and heavydoug recaps it to argue against the citation, but have either of you noted that Dr. Friedman is commenting on another author, named Powell?

That's Jim Powell, and in that quotation Dr. Friedman was referring to Powell's book *FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression* (2003).

The quote from Friedman is one of the blurbs in the opening pages of the paperback edition I've just pulled from a nearby shelf (along with praise from Thomas Sowell, James M. Buchanan, and P.J. O'Rourke). The book itself is strongly suggested to both of you.

Meanwhile, freely available online are several excellent short articles by Powell, drawing upon the research he used to write *FDR's Folly*:

1) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

2) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3329

...especially relevant to racial issues currently under discussion:

3) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3327

4) http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n4/powell.pdf

Roosevelt's New Deal was an incredibly stupid, unspeakably unnecessary, and utterly murderous perversion of federal power beyond the authority of the Constitution, and especially the aggrandizement of the Presidency not only far beyond the role lawfully accorded in our charter of government but also beyond plain sanity.

The Presidency is a cancer upon the U.S. body politic today largely because of what FDR did to the nation with his New Deal.

--

SJ Doc
Yes, I've read the book a few years ago (I have the hardcover edition) and as I posted above, I've just pulled it off the shelf to reread.

Thanks for the links.

"I Can't Identify"
The comparison made by Mr. Greenberg is absurd on its face. He should discuss his liberal white guilt feelings with his therapist.
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