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Thursday, March 13, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Lost Art of the Apology
by Paul Greenberg
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Barack Obama faces a test of character in this unending race for the Democratic presidential nomination: Does he continue to take the high road, saying he aims to unite rather than divide the country, or does he respond in kind when his opponent throws every low thing she can at him?

It's not a test Hillary Clinton is likely to face. By now surely no one doubts her ability to plumb the political depths. A veteran of many a political campaign, hers is not the politics of unity but of the war room. To sum up her guiding philosophy: Attack, attack, attack. And one more thing - take no prisoners. She's not about to apologize for some of the stunts her campaign has pulled in this campaign, whether it's distributing a picture of her opponent in Somali dress, accusing him of plagiarism, or hubby's trying to dismiss Barack Obama as just another black candidate a la Jesse Jackson.

All those tactics backfired, which is the good news. The bad news is that, on the basis of such tactics, her fans continue to praise Clinton femme as a "fighter," even if it's a dirty fighter. For Americans in the Vince Lombardi tradition, it's not how you play the game but whether you win or lose. And of late - see Texas and Ohio - Miss Hillary has had some big wins. And winning means never having to apologize.

It's all in accord with the macho American tradition. "Never apologize," said John Wayne, perhaps the macho American hero. "It's a sign of weakness." Or to quote the title of Jim Belushi's book back in 2006, Real Men Don't Apologize.

To some of us, making a proper apology when we've wronged another, or just screwed up, is a sign of strength, not weakness. It demonstrates an ability to overcome false pride. One of the many lessons I learned - or was supposed to learn - in that graduate school of conduct called the U.S. Army is never, never try to weasel out of a mistake.

The best response when called on the carpet is a simple "No excuse, sir." Not "I'm sorry but . . ." or any other attempt to evade responsibility. An honest confession of fault clears the air and doesn't let the wrong fester. It's an effective course in civilian life, too. And, more important, an honorable one.

When one of Barack Obama's close advisers, Samantha Power, described Hillary Clinton as a monster who'd stoop to anything to win this election, Ms. Power was obliged to resign her post. Fair enough. Accountable enough. A resignation remains the most sincere from of apology in public life. And there aren't nearly enough of them.

Note the contrast with Hillary Clinton's reaction when her flack-in-chief, Howard Wolfson, compared Barack Obama to the Clintonistas' idea of a monster - Kenneth Starr, the prosecutor who pursued Bill Clinton in the late unpleasantness known as L'affaire Lewinsky.

Instead of demanding her spokesman's resignation, Senator Clinton explained that Mr. Wolfson wasn't making "an ad hominem attack" but only an "historical reference." And, what's more, she agreed with him. As an apology, that's more like another attack.

For an example of how to apologize, allow me a little local pride in the Catholic Diocese of Little Rock. It seems the diocese had discouraged support this year for the Susan B. Komen Foundation, which sponsors the Race for the Cure against breast cancer. Why, for heaven's sake? Because of the foundation's supposed ties to Planned Parenthood and abortion providers.

As it turns out, no funds raised by the Race for the Cure in Arkansas are used to finance abortions through Planned Parenthood, and Monsignor J. Gaston Hebert, who currently heads the diocese, minced no words when he apologized for the church's earlier statement:

"To let that statement stand would be an act of injustice," said the monsignor. "With apologies to Komen, to those fighting breast cancer and to the survivors, to the Catholic clergy and faithful who were embarrassed by the mistaken policy, I rescind the position statement in its entirety."

Now that's an apology. No excuses, no "explanations," no weasel words. Just a cleansing act. Result: Trust is restored. Sherrye McBride of the Komen Foundation in Arkansas responded in kind, saying of the monsignor: "He realized he had made a mistake, and he was a big enough person and a fine enough man to say so." Which is how making a proper apology respects and reconciles all concerned. It's an old rule, mathematical in its elegance: Forgiveness is the reciprocal of repentance.

Here's hoping the monsignor's example spreads far beyond Arkansas. It needs to, for apologizing seems largely a forgotten art in our times. Just how forgotten? Nick Smith, a professor of philosophy at the University of New Hampshire, begins his absorbing new book ("I Was Wrong: The Meanings of Apologies") by noting that the most recent philosophical inquiry devoted to the art and practice of apologies may be Maimonides' treatise "Laws of Repentance," which dates back to circa 1170-1180.

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The fact is
that Hillary has apologized on more than one
occasion for things her staff have said, and
the pundits here on Town Hall acted as if the
apologies have never happened.

And what about the resignations of her staff?
Did they, or did they not happen.

Your whole column is dispicable in its language
and its spirit. Talk about berating someone for
not apologizing. I think you owe Hillary your
own apology. And I am not kidding.

Obama first injected race as issue
Paul Greenberg, check out this article in the New republic. It documents who played the race card. It was Hussein Obama.

The New Republic
Race Man by Sean Wilentz
How Barack Obama played the race card and blamed Hillary Clinton.
Post Date Wednesday, February 27, 2008

Obama’s “Hoodwink” remark in Mississippi

I support neither Clinton nor Obama. Obama should have led the way for apologies for playing a blatant race card Monday when he told supporters at Mississippi, “They’re trying to hoodwink you.” Not one of the four major non-cable news networks reported this, instead opting for Obama’s funnier remark about Hillary Clinton’s offer. Even if he had apologized, the damage was done and he got the massive vote in Mississippi. No integrity! And definitely not a uniter!

Obama uses the race card rather often with complaints and negative observations even though he has had years of schooling in some of America’s best schools, advantages which most Americans have not had. If he didn’t pull the race card, voters would have to learn more about his ultra liberal views instead of joining the excitement over an African-American candidate for president. When the general populace, who are busy trying to raise children and hold down jobs, finally realize how Obama has been the most liberal voter in the Senate, including being pro-infanticide, it will be too late. The honor of being the first African-American president should go to a more deserving candidate...not one who pushed hard to ensure that the baby pushing its head out of its mommy trying to be born would be left to die if the attending doctor’s efforts to destroy the baby’s brain didn’t succeed.

Obama’s “Hoodwink” remark in MS

I support neither Clinton nor Obama. Obama should have led the way for apologies for playing a blatant race card Monday when he told supporters at Mississippi, “They’re trying to hoodwink you.” Not one of the four major non-cable news networks reported this, instead opting for Obama’s funnier remark about Hillary Clinton’s offer. Even if he had apologized, the damage was done and he got the massive vote in Mississippi. No integrity! And definitely not a uniter!

Obama uses the race card rather often with complaints and negative observations even though he has had years of schooling in some of America’s best schools, advantages which most Americans have not had. If he didn’t pull the race card, voters would have to learn more about his ultra liberal views instead of joining the excitement over an African-American candidate for president. When the general populace, who are busy trying to raise children and hold down jobs, finally realize how Obama has been the most liberal voter in the Senate, including being pro-infanticide, it will be too late. The honor of being the first African-American president should go to a more deserving candidate…not one who pushed hard to ensure that the baby pushing its head out of its mommy trying to be born would be left to die if the attending doctor’s efforts to destroy the baby’s brain didn’t succeed.

Obama’s race-baiting 'okey-doke comments

Besides the “hoodwink” comment made by Obama this week, I’m just remembering the “Okey-Doke” comment Obama continues to make to black audiences to further divide the races. Yet he’s the Okey-Doke leader in misrepresenting himself, portraying himself as “a committed Christian” to African-Americans in South Carolina and elsewhere in the South.

Obama’s idea of being “a committed Christian” doesn’t come close to the Christ-committed forgiving African-Americans whose forebears suffered in slavery. These African-Americans often attend the black Baptist churches and carry their well-worn Bibles to church.

It’s been an honor to talk with a sweet elder in her 80’s in one of those churches, an elder who represents a link to her forebears whose power of forgiveness changed the world and whose power through Christ continues decades later to touch hearts. This woman would probably smile sweetly, too much of a noble lady to be taken in by Obama’s “Okey-Doke” race-baiting comment.

Good
Sounds like you, yourself, read these books and they had a cleansing effect on raising your consciousness level, so that you might raise ours.

Thank you! Pass it on!

Paul
I don't know if I should apologize for this or not! I will contemplate and get back to you. Did you see that viruddh is "not kidding" around. Woo, that sent chills down my spine.

Hillary's apology Wednesday
Hillary's apology to African Americans is a case of too little, too late.

The sincerity of her apology and any real concern for the Democratic Party's prospects in November can only be measured by her withdrawal from the race.

Apologies are not supposed to take the form of a strategy that you then profit from; the damage the Clintons have done to the party is immense, and her continued campaign only worsens the situation.

It is time to move on.

OK, Paul Greenberg can start the process
... by apologizing for his lies, libels and smears against Ron Paul in particular and libertarian Republicans in general in his Feb 18th column.

Pictures
Hillary would release pictures of her naked opponet and then say, I didn't do it someone in my campaign did that. We will have that person removed. I would never do that to my opponet and I'm sorry everyone had to see those pictures.

She will eventually run out of people to remove.

She should wear white gloves when they interview her on the morning shows.

Prize for Public Apology w/o contrition
For the most recent public apology totally lacking even the most remote hint of contrition, first place must be awarded to Elliot Spitzer, truly a crook for all seasons.

virrudh
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word "apology". Clinton never quite gets there. When she was asked if she thought Obama was really a practicing Muslim she answered "Not...as far as I know". What's that supposed to mean? Indeed, why should she apologize when her surrogates are just doing her bidding?

In response to your request for apologies, NOBODY owes Hillary Clinton an apology. And in case you don't happen to recognize my username, I am, on townhall, known and recognized as a very liberal Democrat. I fit all the democraphics to be a Hillary supporter---older, female, Democrat, Protestant etc. I once supported the Clintons but since Hillary has shown us her despicable campaign tactics I would now not vote for her if withholding my vote meant I had to leave the country, change my name, and assume a new identity. There is such a thing as honor. I am sickened by the thought that Republican rule might continue in this country---but equally sickened by the prospect of a government led by a woman with the ethics of Pol Pot.

To Chief Harpooneer
No, that honor goes to Tom DeLay. Eliot Spitzer has admitted he did wrong. Tom DeLay never has and just continues to whine and make excuses. Of course, opinions do differ. You may think that banging a prostitute is worse than subverting the United States government. Each one to his own taste.

lilly
i am with you all the way.

i was relatively ambiguous about hillary or obama, in my mind i could have supported either.

but she has finally crossed the line.
she has held off distancing herself from vile comments by her staff since penn made his drug commnents on hardball.

i don't know what ferraro's problem is, but hillary let it hang out there for 2 days.

i will not support her even if she could win although i think it is mathematically impossible for her to win.

Hypocrisy abounds
I so appreciate the line in this article "No excuses, Sir" and wish many more people took that route. You KNOW that HRC and Geraldine firmly believe, as most people would, the statement that BHO would not be where he is if he were not African-American. We are now programmed by our PC police (= libs, schools, media etc.) to automatically apologize for things that we BELIEVE. Where's the freedom of speech in that? So many of our pc-driven mandates have made a mockery of our integrity, honesty and character. Apologies ring hollow even when they are truly meant...so sad.

doro
would someone please explain to me how being a black man in america has now become an advantage.

i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?

the idea that obama has garnered all these votes simply becaue he is black goes against all common sense and 300 years of american history.

It wasn't John Wayne
who said "never apologise, it's a sign of weakness".

""Never apologize," said John Wayne, perhaps the macho American hero. "It's a sign of weakness.""

It was said by James Warner Bellah, through his character Captain Nathan Brittles in the story "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon".

Bellah grew up during the Spanish-American War era,and was exposed to many stories of life in the U.S. Cavalry. Most of the John Wayne / John Ford westerns were based on his stories. ("Ft Apache", and "The Searchers" for a couple more examples) One I never saw on film but was a good story and one I would like to see made into a movie is "Spanish Man's Grave". A good tale of manhood, revolving around 2nd Lt Pennel featured in several of the movies.

Greenberg, if you want a Republican in the White House, you want Hillary to beat Obama in the primary. Like Hannity, you fight against your best interest.

good column
I am not surprised it is not a popular column, since it attacks a certain image of being macho. But Greenberg is exactly right that a refusal to apologize when everyone you knows is not a sign of strength, but of weakness.

I disagree with Bush on most issues. But there is no single issue that had filled me with more contempt than that of Masri the innocent German muslim man who was kidnapped (because of a confusion about his name) in Macedonia and flew him to Afghanistan to be interrogated and then, 2 months after it became clear he was picked up by mistake, he was released without papers in Albania.

What was so deplorable is not that he was kidnaped. Mistakes are made, and such a mistake is hardly surprising in the current climate. To a degree it was that he was not immediately released when it was realized a mistake was made. Although that decision does not get back to Bush. It was that even when these mistakes become known the Bush administration refuses to express regret because they apparently think it makes them look weak. When Angela Merkel claimed that she had received an apology, Condoleeza Rice actually had to demean herself by rushing to the press to deny we had apologized. How disgraceful.

Clinton does seem to be cut from the same cloth. She acts as if it is a sign of weakness in Obama that the Obama campaign apologizes for its errors, while hers does not. If these people were 5 year olds that might be understandable. But they are supposed to be adults. And of the people mentioned above only Obama has been acting in a way I would want my 5 year old to learn from.

religious lib - here's how
"would someone please explain to me how being a black man in america has now become an advantage."

I have a nephew and two nieces by one brother.
The nephew is the eldest. He was a good kid, smart, responsible. His two younger sisters were spoiled by their parents. Selfish, ignorant, heavily indoctrinated feminists who truly believed that men existed to server females hand and foot.

And he bent over backwards for those two shrill harridans, to the point of giving up his seat to the younger simply because she demanded.

He was so browbeaten by his parents that he must defer to the undeserving brats, that it was reflex. Even when he was a free adult, he continued to kowtow to them.

That's how. That's how, when we're at war with Islam, we have Barak HUSSEIN Obama even being considered for the White House. That's how, when we've been the victim of Moslems, we kowtow and bend over backwards not to offend Moslems. That's how, even though females are a majority, they're still deferred to as if a minority. And that's how, even though they're enjoying more benefits than every in the past, blacks are still held up as "victims", even when they're not.

Religious Lib
Twisting words....I never stated that he garnered all those votes simply because he was Black. Obviously, that would not be true. HOWEVER, I do believe that he would not be where he is (which is the original statement) without the "cachet" of his ethnicity, the tantalizing (to Liberals) thought of somehow finally atoning for that deep-rooted guilt--the ultimate reparation. If he were a white guy with exactly the same message, I don't believe he would be where he is now. So yes, in answer to your question, I think there are lots of people pushing for him on the basis of his race (and they are of ALL ethnicities) just as I believe there are lots of people pushing for HRC on the basis of her gender (not just women). IT's just a fact.

jdw
i thank you for your thoughtful and civil post.

i don't agree that this is the case with obama.

it is only us oldsters who look at it the way you are looking at it.

those under 40 have grown up with michael, tiger and oprah, they literally don't see race anymore.

my son is 18 and he loves the chargers but he doesn't see phillip rivers as the white quarterback and ladanian tomilson as the black running back, he just sees phillip and LT.

i am a white male and obama being black has nothing to do with my support for him.

i like his message of turning the page.
we have been fighting this race thing, this gay thing, this abortion thing, this war thing for 40 years and most americans, especially under 50 are sick of it.

let us move forward .


religiouslib - you don't want answers...


religiouslib writes: “would someone please explain to me how being a black man in america has now become an advantage.”


You’ll have to give it some context, RL.


For example, ask that question of a black man who, for circumstances beyond his control, attended a failed inner-city school system while growing up and you’re likely to get one answer.


Ask that question of a white man who was denied a college admission or a job or a promotion due to ‘affirmative action’ and you’re likely to get a very different answer.


But you’re not really interested in explanations or answers; that’s not why you’re here.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?”


If they are voting for her primarily because she is a woman, because of her “sex”, then absolutely yes, it IS sexism.


What did *you* think it was?



~~~



religiouslib writes: “the idea that obama has garnered all these votes simply becaue he is black goes against all common sense and 300 years of american history.”


Being a *liberal* “goes against all common sense and 300 years of American history” too, and it hasn’t slowed you down any…



scott
i thought we had earned some respect for each other.
there is no need for snide comments, and it isn't very Christian on your part.

i am a searcher of truth and when i ask a question it is sincere.

i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.

i voted for obama because i like his message.

as far as liberals and common sense--right back at you.

the conservatives in america in 1776 supported the king, the liberals were for independence.

doro
this concept of white guilt is a conservative myth.

i will repeat what i said to jdw, it is only americans over 50 who are obsessed with race.

the generations after that grew up with michael jordan and tiger woods and simply don't see race as a factor.

do you get it, they don't see obama as black they see him as an american running for president with a strong message---period

Religiouslib
I respectully wholeheartedly disagree with you. The white guilt is being taught to our children as THE historical imperative of the United States. Trust me, I have young children in school and many friends associated with schools as teachers or administrators. February, every year, is a frenzy of teeth gnashing over black victimhood and our impressionable young 'uns are taught that very little in this country is as seminal as the fact that there was slavery. The fallout of that, of course, is the continued repression of the black man.
Very, very sad to me that children know a great deal more about MLK jr. than they do about Washington or Jefferson. Whatever happened to the balance?
In any case, it is simply not true that white guilt is concocted. It is a focal point of our children's indoctrination.

doro
i am an elected school board member and i can assure you that no such thing is going on in my district.

in fact my son (who will be graduating in june) had many of the same textbooks i had in the midwest 30 years ago especially in history.

you are making an assumption on anecdotal evidence.

if, in fact, something you don't like is going on in your school go to a board meeting.

school board members are elected by the local community and are usually very concerned when voters bring up issues.

more importantly, i have learned over the years that our experiences have more to do with what kind of person we are rather than some musty dusty textbook we studied in 11th grade.

think about it--how much of what you are was shaped by textbooks.

religiouslib - double standards (1 of 2)


religiouslib writes: “those under 40 have grown up with michael, tiger and oprah, they literally don't see race anymore.”


If you think people under 40 don’t see the discrimination of “affirmative action” first hand, then it’s because you can’t bear to see it.


If you think younger people don’t see the double-standards of events like “Miss Black USA” (imagine a “Miss White USA”, for example) or BET Television (imagine a station openly promoting itself as “White Entertainment Television”) then you just don’t want to see it, RL.


But burying your head in the sand doesn’t make reality go away, it just means you can pretend like reality doesn’t exist, and then support social policies based on your fantasy world instead of the real world.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “my son is 18 and he loves the chargers but he doesn't see phillip rivers as the white quarterback and ladanian tomilson as the black running back, he just sees phillip and LT.”


That’s good. I grew up watching Brian Sipe and Greg Pruitt. I didn’t see a white quarterback and a black running back, I just saw Brian and Greg.


religiouslib - style over substance (2)


religiouslib: “i am a white male and obama being black has nothing to do with my support for him.”


I am a white male, and after reviewing Alan Keyes' positions on 36 different issues (http://www.alankeyes.com/issues_list.php) I couldn’t find a single thing I disagreed with, and the only one I remembered being unsure about (only due to lack of knowledge) was his national sales tax plan.


Alan Keyes is RIGHT ON THE MONEY on every single issue I’m aware of that both social and fiscal conservatives care about. But like most of the other less-known candidates, the news media didn’t give him the time of day.



~~~



RL: “i like his message of turning the page.”


But, turning the page to *what*?


That’s one of the problems with people who make decisions based on emotions, they are easily swayed by style-over-substance “messages”, and they don’t consider the consequences of their actions.



~~~



RL: “we have been fighting this race thing, this gay thing, this abortion thing, this war thing for 40 years and most americans, especially under 50 are sick of it.”


The Left has promoted division with regard to race and the sex for decades, and those chickens are finally coming home to roost in your own back yard for a change, with blacks voting for Obama and single white women (and elderly white democrats in general) voting for Hillary.


Anyone fighting FOR the “gay thing” or FOR the “abortion thing” is fighting against God, and they won’t win that fight.


War is one of the most unfortunate aspects of the human condition, and the evidence of 6,000+ years of human history shows that military weakness invites attack and subjugation.


The Left chooses to ignore that reality too, and loathes and despises our own military, and the radical Left celebrates the victories of our enemy’s military.


Contrary to Leftist propaganda, nobody likes war, RL.


But when we’re involved in a war, patriotic Americans want America to win.


2 new parodies
for your enjoyment. My blog. Thanks!

Religious Lib
Rather than deal with the bureaucratic behemoth of the public school system (driven by NEA agenda), I chose to put my children in a private school. The reason I did was so that I WOULD have some say in their curricula.
In terms of what is being taught, the very fact that our children have endless activities, lectures etc. during the month of February is by very definition highlighting race and undermining integration. Let's have a Jewish History month (holocaust? remember that?), or a religious persecution month (oops, that may again refer to the founding of this country..)

ReligiousLib
With all respect, holding up an athelete as the end of racism is in itself rather racist. Had you said that your children are not racist through their own experiences with people they have personal contact with then you present a valid point but instead you imply that not all of 'those people'are bad folks, some make really good atheletes. See my point.

I grew up reading about the marvels of Wilt-The-Stilt and every young boy I knew wanted to be as fast as Bob Hayes. By your logic that should have stopped bigotry in our generation.

Racism will never be allowed to fade as long as there are people making their living telling Americans racism is still alive.

scott
i work with youth on a daily basis at chruch and at schools.
my son has friends and teamates over to the house all the time.

i have talked politics with them alot.

they simply don't see the things you do.
they don't measure society in black and white terms.

the world has changed scott, get used to it.
the dark gloomy world you inhabit is not known to younger americans.

so some vote for hillary and some for obama.

evangelicals went with huckabee, moderates went with mccain.

same thing.

as far as emotion vs. fact that is simply a conservative myth.

i have been on townhall long enough to know the truth of that.

there is almost total emotion here rarely are facts presented.




dora
in my son's public school they have two Christian groups which meet on campus and have pages in the year book.

as far as black history month, we have a pacific islander month in our district because of a high percentage of islanders .

now you see it as racist i see it as an opportunity to learn about other cultures.


religiouslib, note the dearth of options
religiouslib writes: "i am a white male and obama being black has nothing to do with my support for him. i like his message of turning the page."

If I had to choose between Hillary and Obama, I would also choose Obama (BTW, if I had to choose between stepping in doggie doo-doo and stepping in bovine doo-doo, I would choose doggie doo-doo - it's just not much of a choice). If I could choose between Obama and J.C. Watts or Michael Steele, I would choose one of the latter two.

The Democratic Party has become the repository for institutionalized racism in the 21st Century. Geraldine Ferraro is right; Obama is such a lightweight, if he weren't black, the Donkey Party would have dispatched him long ago.

I'm glad JFK and MLK are not alive to see this.

leroy
yu make a valid point but didn't get mine.

most kids growing up these days simply don't see race.

now i live in california which has become a melting pot.

you can go to a mall and honestly can't tell what race most people are because they are so mixed.

my son has many friends who are 1/3 this or that.

1/3 black,1/3 white and 1/3 fillipino.

now are they aware of race, yes, but they do not view it the same as those of us over 45 do.


religiouslib - It's about the truth, RL.


religiouslib writes: “scott - i thought we had earned some respect for each other.”


The last thing you wrote to me (mistakenly addressed to talent scout, but replying to my post) was “you need to spend more time exploring your own beliefs rather than trying to play gotcha about things you have little understanding of.” (RL, 3/2, 6:37pm, Bob Burney column).


Regardless, it’s not about respect, and never has been; it’s about the truth, RL. Always.



~~~



RL writes: “there is no need for snide comments, and it isn't very Christian on your part.”


Truth is always very Christian, RL.


It is ‘political correctness’ that is NOT very Christian.


You always get those two confused…



~~~



RL writes: “i am a searcher of truth and when i ask a question it is sincere.”


I don’t believe that for a second. A “searcher of truth” has to be willing to accept the truth, whether he personally likes what the truth turns out to be, or not.



~~~



RL writes: “i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.”


So you think 90%+ of black people are voting for Obama because of his stand on the issues?


And you think the lopsided majorities of single white women and elderly democrats are voting for Hillary because of her stand on the issues?


Is that really what you think?



~~~



RL writes: “i voted for obama because i like his message.”


Why don’t you paraphrase Obama’s message for us here, in your own words?



~~~



RL writes: “as far as liberals and common sense--right back at you.”


You know that kind of witty repartee will only get you in trouble, RL ;-)



~~~



RL writes: “the conservatives in america in 1776 supported the king, the liberals were for independence.”


Oh, here we go…


It wasn’t the Jane Fondas and Michael Moores of the world that kicked the English out of America, RL…


scott
oh my gosh
no that post was for talent scout, sometimes i skip around and forget who i am posting too.

seriously, he had assaulted me about denominations and i was replying to him that he didn't understand the different denominations.

religiouslib
Most children do not see race as a big deal, unless it is brought out to them. Most people would not view race as any dividing factor either if given the chance.

It is when the issue of race is brought into play and held over a persons head that the problems begin and it makes little difference whether the person is being looked upon with little expectations because of his race or if he is told to make concessions because of another persons race.

I am no follower of Geraldines at all but why is it taboo for her to ask what would appear to be a legitimate question? If there is no basis for what she asked then how is it Obama gets 90%plus of the black vote in Mississippi the otherday? Now to be fair he did receive majority votes in some states with virtually no black voters, but if you follow the black democratic voting trend which way do you see it moving. Is it racist? I don't know, but something tells me if John Boy Edwards were still in the race I don't think those votes would have been split down the middle between him and Obama.

Doro
Do I believe that Barack Obama has no qualifications for political office but his race? No, I don't believe that. He is, obviously, an effective orator. He has shown an unprecedented gift for bringing out new voters, something all politicans aren't good at. He is very good at defusing conflict (I once saw him do this on live TV with an enraged Bill O'Reilly). By all reports he has run a much more businesslike campaign than Hillary has. He has an impressive academic background (which, I realize, cuts no ice with people who don't care about such things, but it's important to some of us). Although he is black, he does not showcase race as Jesse Jackson does. He keeps a cool head (in his place, by now I would have strangled Hillary). The combination of his odd personal history, his racial mix, and his strength in conflict resolution would make him very valuable to this country in international relations where Bush's Mid-America swagger has made us enemies.

To disregard Obama's strengths is indeed racist. If you say "he just got where he is because of race" then you are denying his assets on the assumption that if the world really worked right, the white person would come out ahead every time---it's just Affirmative Action putting the black person ahead, ever. This reasoning is familiar to every black person who has ever gotten into a good college, been hired for a good job, receive a promotion, or received any sort of honor. Of course it's racist.

Is Tiger Wood really a good golfer? Or is he just given a winning score because he's black?


To religious lib
"Miss Black America" contest and "Pacific Islanders Club" etc as ways to learn about other cultures, yes, and, hello, as an avenue to help minority kids feel good about being who they are. I once worked knew a six year-old black child who, when his mother was pregnant, advised her to "get a white baby this time". I once knew a dark black woman whose family, all but her, was fair; she used to put Clorox in her bathwater when she was a child. And until the 1960's began a "Black is Beautiful" campaign there was a whole industry devoted to making black people's hair act like white people's hair---and folks paid a lot for the service. When the culture teaches a child he or she is less attractive, the child often learns that lesson, and self-hatred is not constructive to the individual or to society. A school or church or any other place that works with kids needs to keep this in mind.

Lilly
I will copy the answer I posted above to the exact same question...

Religious Lib
Twisting words....I never stated that he garnered all those votes simply because he was Black. Obviously, that would not be true. HOWEVER, I do believe that he would not be where he is (which is the original statement) without the "cachet" of his ethnicity, the tantalizing (to Liberals) thought of somehow finally atoning for that deep-rooted guilt--the ultimate reparation. If he were a white guy with exactly the same message, I don't believe he would be where he is now. So yes, in answer to your question, I think there are lots of people pushing for him on the basis of his race (and they are of ALL ethnicities) just as I believe there are lots of people pushing for HRC on the basis of her gender (not just women). IT's just a fact."

The statement that was made and I quoted, was made by Geraldine Ferraro and was that "Obama would not be where he is now if he weren't black". Neither she nor I said what you attributed to me: "he just got where he is because of race". Hard to respond to you when you do not even quote me correctly.

religiouslib - Part 1 of 2


religiouslib writes: “scott - i work with youth on a daily basis at chruch and at schools. my son has friends and teamates over to the house all the time. i have talked politics with them alot. they simply don't see the things you do.”


We both know you’re going to believe whatever you want to believe, RL.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “they simply don't see the things you do.”


You mean you’ve convinced yourself now that kids don’t see hypocrisy?


Try this.


Ask these kids if they think it would be right to have a contest that only white people were allowed to participate in.


Then ask them if it would be any more right to have a contest that only black people were allowed to participate in.


Then show them a video of a “Miss Black USA” pageant. Not the swimsuit segment, the talent segment will do just fine for our purposes.


Then ask them what they see.


I’m pretty sure these kids will see exactly what I do, RL.


They’re going to see a contest where Hispanics, Asians and Caucasians are excluded from participation, just because they’re not black.


That’s racism RL, and a double-standard to boot.


And it’s rank hypocrisy on the part of people who preach equality while supporting different standards for different people based on skin color.


I think those kids will be able to see that just fine, RL.


You should have more confidence in those kids.


religiouslib - Part 2 of 2


religiouslib writes: “they don't measure society in black and white terms.”


Who taught you how to twist words like that, RL?


Whoever it was, he or she did you a great disservice.


I don’t “measure society in black and white terms” either RL, it’s Liberals who do that.


My comments are based on the same standards of right and wrong for everyone, not different standards for black and white.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “the world has changed scott, get used to it.”


A genuine “searcher of truth” doesn’t fall back on unsubstantiated assertion and denial when the truth doesn’t suit him, RL.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “the dark gloomy world you inhabit is not known to younger americans.”


Psychological projection mixed with deep-seated denial is no way to argue, RL…



~~~



religiouslib writes: “so some vote for hillary and some for obama. evangelicals went with huckabee, moderates went with mccain. same thing.”


It’s not the “same thing” at all, RL.


If you can tell yourself that lie and believe it strongly enough to post it publicly, then not only are you not a “searcher of truth”, you’re an intentional propagator of falsehood at worst, disinformation and confusion at best.


Lilly...
"Is Tiger Wood really a good golfer? Or is he just given a winning score because he's black?"

So just to confirm, Lilly, you are comparing a feckless, one-term senator from Illinois to perhaps the greatest golf phenom of all time... why? Oh, because they're both black! Yes, you certainly have clarified where you stand.

lilly
Why do I have to be racist to believe Obama is not qualified for the job?

Just because he can stop an arguement with Bill O'Riley, not the sharpest tool in the shed by the way, does not exactly show ability to moderate global problems.

Being an effective orator is not neccessarily the mark of a world leader. Sometimes being a good speaker allows you to get your point across, sometimes being a good speaker allows you to mask the fact that there is no substance to your message and sometimes being a good speaker allows you to hide your real intentions.


HAVING TO SAY YOU'RE SORRY
Starting out as a legal secretary at the age of 17, I had a lot to learn. One of the things I learned was that I made mistakes.

The next thing I learned was that those mistakes could not be shoved conveniently under the desk or pushed back in an old file cabinet somewhere. I learned that the hard way.

The next thing I learned was, inasmuch as those mistakes were going to come out anyway, I may as well be forthcoming about them as soon as I discovered them.

I was apologetic all over the place. After all, those people were LAWYERS.

The next thing I learned was that almost every mistake can be corrected, but only by a joint effort on the part of both my employer and me.

That's the best thing I learned. Almost any mistake can be corrected. Almost.

I was a legal secretary for umpteen years.


religious lib
You have it backwards.

My nephew is in his early 20s.

ALL "modern" people have been brainw... I mean indoctr... I mean "enlightened" in this knee-jerk reaction to certain pavlovian triggers.

Doro
"If he were a white guy with exactly the same message, I don't believe he would be where he is now. "

I agree with you 100% and I have said it day one since his campaign. Religiouslib can attest to that.

If Obama was named Richard Smith, a one year senator out of Illinois, and white--we would never have heard of him. He would never have had the MSM cajoling him to run. If he did run under the same message, he would have a hair more credibility than Kucinich, and that is not saying a whole lot. He also would not have a Pocket Oprah for a wallet and the entire Hollywood elite throwing cash at him.

There is an absolute realism to White Guilt and I deal with it every single day on the job. I would explain, but then I'd have every liberal call me a racist swine.

Tom Delay & Such
OMG...Lilly is dragging out Tom Delay again.When will she let go of him? He is usful,though.An after thought.I would like to know exactly what he is guilty of.Being strong enough to call a "spade a spade"? I wish he was back in there.He at least had the cajones to stand up to the dastardly lefties.

If Delay is guilty of something,will someone tell me what it is? I know he was disliked,even by some of the weak-kneed,lily-livered Republicans.But he knew how to get things done.Now we just get steam-rolled by a bunch of egg-sucking ,yellow bellied ,lefty dogs.

May the Democrat Party keep on stepping in it.Each day it gets worse for them. How desperate do you have to be to vote for either of their candidates? I think the bloom is coming off Barack Hussein Obama's rose.(yes,that's his name).He is not lookin'so cool now that the Rev.has been seen and heard by voters.Even Democrats can't stomach that.....can you?

scott
i could accept your analysis of the scripture because i believe God works in mysterious ways and maybe his way of acquiring your salvation was through your strange and convoluted intepretation of the bible.

but now you are trying to cross the line and pycho-analyize my responses.

you are not a professional psychologist and know nothing of what you speak.

so please take your psuedo science of the mind somewhere else.

if you want to debate issues fine but debate the issues don't comment on my motivation or state of mind.


religiouslib - misrep & red herrings


religiouslib writes: “i could accept your analysis of the scripture because i believe God works in mysterious ways and maybe his way of acquiring your salvation was through your strange and convoluted intepretation of the bible.”


That is a most dishonest and disingenuous characterization of my beliefs.


As you well know, I am able to explain what I believe and why with relative clarity and simplicity; anyone can understand plain book, chapter and verse when it is logically presented.


Your “interpretation” charge is just a red-herring. If you dispute an “interpretation”, then you need to present your case, not just wave the “interpretation foul” flag around as if that is a defense in itself.



religiouslib - A direct hit already?!?


religiouslib writes: “but now you are trying to cross the line and pycho-analyize my responses.”


I didn’t cross any line that you haven’t already trampled and worn-out from repeated transgressions in our previous discussions.


There’s no reason for us to ‘start from scratch’ as if we have never debated before. Better to just get right to it.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “you are not a professional psychologist and know nothing of what you speak.”


Your track record of guessing what I know and what I don’t know is dismal to say the least, but I do admire your willingness to rush in wear angels fear to tread.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “so please take your psuedo science of the mind somewhere else.”


And I see that one was a *direct hit* right out of the gate.


religiouslib-just callin your bluffs, RL


religiouslib writes: “if you want to debate issues fine but debate the issues don't comment on my motivation or state of mind.”


Then you will need to stop making your state of mind part of the debate; when you say silly things like “the dark gloomy world you inhabit is not known to younger americans”, I’m gonna call your state of mind into question every time.


And I’m gonna call your bluff every time you try to use political correctness too; I love that stuff, because once you’ve thrown that dog on the table, you’ve got nothing left to deal.


I know it, you know it, and you know I know it, but you’ll probably do it again anyway, because I don't think you can help it.


religiouslib- What did YOU think it was?


religiouslib writes: “if you want to debate issues fine…”



Okay then, we can start with a few questions I’ve already asked but you didn’t answer:


religiouslib writes: “i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?”


If they are voting for her primarily because she is a woman, because of her “sex”, then absolutely yes, it IS sexism.


What did *you* think it was?


religiouslib- Do you REALLY think that?


religiouslib writes: “if you want to debate issues fine…”


Okay then, we can start with a few questions I’ve already asked but you didn’t answer:


RL writes: “i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.”


So you think 90%+ of black people are voting for Obama because of his stand on the issues?


And you think the lopsided majorities of single white women and elderly democrats are voting for Hillary because of her stand on the issues?


Is that really what you think?


religiouslib - What IS Obama’s message?


religiouslib writes: “if you want to debate issues fine…”


Okay then, we can start with a few questions I’ve already asked but you didn’t answer:



RL writes: “i voted for obama because i like his message.”


Why don’t you paraphrase Obama’s message for us here, in your own words?


scott
you made one and only one valid point and that is i should not have referred to you dark and gloomy mind. that was hypocritical of me and i apologise.

other than that scott you have simply worn out your welcome.

you lack the ability to communicate effectively and think logically.


i don't know if you are retired or what but i do not have the time to go through every dialogue`line by line.

religiouslib - I'll see you around, RL.


religiouslib writes: “scott - you made one and only one valid point and that is i should not have referred to you dark and gloomy mind.”


All of my points are valid, until or unless you demonstrate otherwise. Simple assertions to the contrary without substantiation don’t count RL, and you know better.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “that was hypocritical of me and i apologise.”


Thank you, I accept your apology.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “other than that scott you have simply worn out your welcome.”


Sounds a lot like you’re gettin’ ready to run again…



~~~



religiouslib writes: “you lack the ability to communicate effectively and think logically.”


Then I should be easy pickins for you RL, you should defeat my points with little or no effort at all and knock my questions out of the park.


Go ahead.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i don't know if you are retired or what but i do not have the time to go through every dialogue`line by line.”


Yep, I was right, definitely running away. That’s too bad.


It really doesn’t take long at all to go “line by line”… not if you wanted to…


I’ll see you around, RL.


Scott


scott -final comment
i have tried hard to establish a rapport with you scott because you are a brother in christ and seem to be a sincere intelligent individual.

but scott you don't want to listen to any point of view other than your own.

as i wrote those words i wondered if you hadn't heard that before. none of my business of course, just wondering.

i am trying to find a graceful way to communicate to you the way you present yourself.

its like talking to a computer scott. i see no humor or joy in you.

its as if you can only think in a linear and binary manner.

your responses sound programmed as if you have practiced them or gotten them from a book rather than using your life experience to come to conclusions.

i could be wrong and probably am but that is how you come off.

i am certain you are good man but debate is a 2 way street and you live on a one way street.


religiouslib - Part 1


Hi RL, sorry about the delay.




RL: “scott -final comment”


That’s entirely up to you.



~~~



RL: “i have tried hard to establish a rapport with you scott because you are a brother in christ and seem to be a sincere intelligent individual.”


You have not tried to establish a rapport with me in any way, or with anyone else, as far as I am able to tell.


I don’t have your exact quote, but on more than one occasion you have stated words to the effect that your reason for being here is to prove moral relativism between liberals and conservatives. To show, to the best of your ability, that for every disgraceful act or behavior committed by a liberal, you can name a “Republican” from some time, somewhere in history, who “did something similar”, and so therefore whatever disgraceful thing the liberal did is “okay”.


You use this forum to try to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator, instead of setting the bar higher and reaching for it.


I am sincere. In that, you are true.


The rest is not for me to say.



~~~



RL: “but scott you don't want to listen to any point of view other than your own.”


That’s a dodge and a false accusation rolled into one.


If you have an intelligent case to present, one that your believe can withstand reasonable scrutiny, then present it.


If you can’t, that’s not my fault, and your inability to present a coherent argument has nothing to do with my ability to listen to another point of view.


I’ll gladly consider another viewpoint, but it is not fair of you to expect or demand that anyone treat viewpoints that can’t stand on their own two feet with kid-gloves.



~~~



RL: “as i wrote those words i wondered if you hadn't heard that before. none of my business of course, just wondering.”


Man, is that lame! LOL!


Do you have wind-chimes and New Age music playing in the background, too?


religiouslib - Part 2


RL: “i am trying to find a graceful way to communicate to you the way you present yourself.”


You need to stop pretending to be “graceful”, drop the PC-routine, and just talk like a man. Too many sensitivity-training classes will turn your head into much.


If you’ve got something on your mind that you want to say, just say it.


I try to present myself very directly and straightforward. Most people around here are intelligent and have strongly held beliefs.


There is another kind of person around here too, trolls from one side of the political spectrum mostly, some of whom also have strongly held beliefs, but can’t articulate them in such a way that makes any rational sense at all.


They can’t defend their beliefs to save their lives, yet they expect to be taken seriously and get very offended when someone calls their bluff or asks them to explain themselves.


The truth is, the holes in your positions were already there. I'm just pointing them out.



~~~



RL: “its like talking to a computer scott.”


Like a computer that you’re running away from, maybe.


I wouldn’t have to approach our discussions like a prosecutor if you would stop acting like a defendant.


Why don’t you try focusing on the conversation, and responding with direct answers to direct questions, in a sincere and honest way.



~~~



RL: “i see no humor or joy in you.”


Good, then my plan is working…


Seriously RL, what can your interest in my “humor or joy” possibly have to do with the substance of ANY discussion we’re having, except to function as yet another smokescreen and red-herring for you to once again dodge a direct question?


Do you think every person here doesn’t see through your diversionary tactics?


religiouslib - Part 3


RL: “its as if you can only think in a linear and binary manner.”


That’s the only way to pin someone down when he won’t be honest, RL.


You want people to take you seriously, but when you say something ridiculous and someone calls you on it, instead of owning up to it, you change the subject or throw up a smokescreen, twisting and spinning and obfuscating, anything but admitting “you know what, you’re right, that was out of line and you got me”.


You would never try to get away with these games you play in person, but you seem to think it’s okay to play them here.


You turn conversations into a game of whack-a-mole. If that’s the game you want to play, then I’ll plug up all the holes, cut off all the escape routes, and then wait for you to stick your head out of the only exit left.


But that’s up to you.


You play it straight-up, honest and sincere, then we’ve got no problem.


If you want to play games, then it’s you against me, and may the best man win.


The choice is always yours.



~~~



RL: “your responses sound programmed as if you have practiced them or gotten them from a book rather than using your life experience to come to conclusions.”


You’re a fraud and liar, RL.


You know it, I know it, and so does anyone else reading this.


See how easy that was, just calling it like it is?


I wasn’t trying to find a “graceful way to communicate to you the way you present yourself”, I just called a spade a spade.


You’re a dishonest person RL, you’re that way in every conversation we’ve had, and your game of acting ‘taken aback’ when someone catches you red-handed is embarrassing.


If my responses are “programmed” or “from a book”, then you will have no problem batting them down if you’re for real.


Take me on, RL.


religiouslib - Part 4


religiouslib writes: “i could be wrong and probably am but that is how you come off.”


Then quit playing games and test your theory already.


Take me on.


If my responses are “programmed” or from a book, then you couldn’t ask for an easier target, and you have no excuse whatsoever not to punish me mercilessly.


Take me on.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i am certain you are good man but debate is a 2 way street and you live on a one way street”


A debate where the participants are not face to face requires an extra degree of integrity, but every time in a conversation where an extra bit of honesty and sincerity is required, you go the opposite direction, with a little less.


That’s the way you play it, and you tweak people and then run away, and it takes a special kind of person to play that game from the safety and anonymity of your keyboard.


I don’t like that kind of behavior very much; I don’t suspect anyone does.


Answer the questions, or run along, and I’ll see you next time:





1. RL writes: “i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?”


If they are voting for her primarily because she is a woman, because of her “sex”, then it IS sexism.


What do you call it?


~~~


2. RL writes: “i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.”


So you think 90%+ of blacks are voting for Obama because of his stand on the issues?


And you think the lopsided majorities of single white women and elderly white democrats are voting for Hillary because of her stand on the issues?


Do you REALLY think that?


~~~


3. RL writes: “i voted for obama because i like his message.”


Why don’t you explain Obama’s “message” for us here, in your own words?


scott
you purport to speak for many posters on townhall.

here is a post from this morning in reaction to a give and take between myself and another poster.
when that poster attacked me as you have done, a separate poster who is not liberal jumped in and said this.

"Religiouslib is a man than many, including myself, have great respect for.

He does respect other and never resorts to personal insults.

He reaches out to conservatives for the purpose of debating.

He is a man of honor."



i find it interesting that your posts are rare and very few others, including conservatives,
join in your discussions.

i am here almost every day and have developed friendships among conservatives and moderates and liberals who post here.

can you say the same?



i will make one final comment on obama
i am not totally sold yet on him.

i am watching his reaction to the radical and nutty minister's comments with interest.

there are three crucial messages that have attracted me to obama.

he has made the statement that "anyone who works hard for 40 hours a week should not be poor in America."

i agree.

he has proposed a $4000 tax credit for college students and as a middle class parent with a child entering college in the fall, that is something i think is needed.

my wife and i make too much money to qualify for grants and but not enough to be able to send my son to the college of his choice.

and as we asked our friends at church and work, they are going through the same dilemma.

finally, obama talks about transforming politics by asking Americans to aspire to something greater than themselves.

this is the same message reagan articulated with his "shining city on the hill" analogy.

we have suffered through a presidency where the only message sent to americans was "to keep going to the mall and shop".

well i will take the prospect of an idealistic future over a call for materialism any day.




I'm sorry I'm not sorry
"I'm sorry you did what you did to make me do what I did!"

"I'm not sorry for what I did. I'm sorry I got caught and I'm sorry what I did made so many people upset when they found out about it, which they would have never found out if I hadn't been caught."

Greenburg's right. Apologies just aren't what they used to be...

I'm sorry I'm not sorry
"I'm sorry you did what you did to make me do what I did!"

"I'm not sorry for what I did. I'm sorry I got caught and I'm sorry what I did made so many people upset when they found out about it, which they would have never found out if I hadn't been caught."

Greenberg's right. Apologies just aren't what they used to be...

religiouslib - Reply (1 of 3)


religiouslib writes: “scott - you purport to speak for many posters on townhall.”


I speak for myself.


You have made a direct accusation. Now it’s time to back it up.


It’s real easy, RL. This is a written forum, so there’s no “he said, she said”, there’s just the record.


So scroll up the page, copy whatever you think I’ve said that you think proves that I “purport to speak for many posters on townhall”, and paste it RIGHT HERE, in quotes, for all of us to see.


Either you can do it, or you can’t.


If you can’t, then you concede that you’re a liar.


I checked the record myself, so I’m interested to see what you’re referring to.


Go ahead.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “here is a post from this morning in reaction to a give and take between myself and another poster.”


This is just about the saddest thing I’ve seen someone try to do on TH. Are you so far behind the 8-ball, that you really feel the need to try to establish some credibility here via an unnamed outside source?


If I was a betting man, I’d bet the post you’re referencing:


A) was from a fellow liberal, probably masquerading as a neutral party

B) was not the WHOLE quote

C) was defending you against a well-deserved and frequent lambasting, because you were espousing either an outright falsehood or an absurd misrepresentation of the truth, and you got called on it again.

D) or all of the above



religiouslib - Reply (2 of 3)


religiouslib writes: “i find it interesting that your posts are rare”


You really think so?


If I was a betting man, I’d bet (conservatively) that I have out-posted you at least 2 to 1 over any given 7-day period in the last 4 weeks, since our last discussion.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “and very few others, including conservatives, join in your discussions.”


This isn’t a coffee-clatch, RL.


I’m usually taking some liberal like yourself to the woodshed over some dishonest claim, in which case any assistance by others “joining in” would be unfair “piling on”.


Or I’m discussing religious beliefs with someone, trying to understand why they believe what they do, and seeing if those beliefs can withstand scrutiny in light of Scripture.


Either way, most of my conversations tend to be more of a one-on-one nature.


With you, I get the best of both worlds. I get the opportunity to compare your beliefs to what the Bible says *on the way to the woodshed*, because your dishonesty and misguided politics influence your religion so strongly.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i am here almost every day”


Same here, RL.


For more than a year now.


What's your point?



religiouslib - Reply (3 of 3)


RL: “and have developed friendships among conservatives and moderates and liberals who post here. can you say the same?”


What are you looking for, some kind of Rodney King "can't we all just get along" moment?


I have developed some “friendships”, as far as people on an internet forum that I have never met in person go.


I have a great deal of respect for MANY people on this forum, including many with whom I disagree strongly on one point or another (or many). Whether that respect is mutual or reciprocal is not for me to say.


What I do not like and what I do not respect is intellectual dishonesty.



~~~



Now, I have answered and addressed all of your points and questions (again and as usual). Will you answer just a few of mine?



1. RL writes: “i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?”


If they are voting for her primarily because she is a woman, because of her “sex”, then it IS sexism.


What do you call it?


~~~


2. RL writes: “i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.”


So you think 90%+ of blacks are voting for Obama because of his stand on the issues?


And you think the lopsided majorities of single white women and elderly white democrats are voting for Hillary because of her stand on the issues?


Do you REALLY think that?


~~~


3. RL writes: “i voted for obama because i like his message.”


Why don’t you explain Obama’s “message” for us here, in your own words?


scott
here are two quotes where you include others than yourself in the conversation.

"You have not tried to establish a rapport with me in any way, or with anyone else, as far as I am able to tell."

"You use this forum to try to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator, instead of setting the bar higher and reaching for it."


and now please produce your list of posts from the 4th through the 14th so i can see that you have out posted me 2-1.





3/14/2008 12:43:00 PM 3/14/2008 12:26:47 PM 3/14/2008 11:58:53 AM 3/13/2008 11:37:02 AM 3/13/2008 11:20:38 AM 3/13/2008 11:13:25 AM 3/12/2008 11:00:51 PM 3/12/2008 12:20:19 PM 3/12/2008 12:15:51 PM 3/12/2008 11:55:32 AM 3/12/2008 11:42:15 AM 3/11/2008 1:32:25 PM 3/11/2008 11:35:28 AM 3/11/2008 11:04:55 AM 3/10/2008 2:36:57 PM 3/10/2008 11:31:54 AM 3/10/2008 11:23:19 AM 3/10/2008 11:17:52 AM 3/7/2008 12:10:44 PM 3/7/2008 12:14:47 AM 3/6/2008 12:32:17 PM 3/5/2008 2:23:02 PM 3/4/2008 2:17:01 PM 3/4/2008 12:06:41 PM 3/4/2008 11:50:41 AM 3/4/2008 10:54:03 AM

religiouslib- dishonest as day is long 1


(Part 1 of 2)


religiouslib writes: “scott - here are two quotes where you include others than yourself in the conversation.”


That’s very slippery of you RL, but that’s NOT the accusation you made.


This is:

religiouslib: “scott - you purport to speak for many posters on townhall.” (3/15, 12:24pm)


My reply:
“So scroll up the page, copy whatever you think I’ve said that you think proves that I “purport to speak for many posters on townhall”, and paste it RIGHT HERE, in quotes, for all of us to see. Either you can do it, or you can’t. If you can’t, then you concede that you’re a liar.” (3/15, 3:23pm)




Only after you CHANGED THE RULES by expanding your accusation to cover anything where I simply “include others” as opposed to your ORIGINAL ACCUSATION that I “purport to speak” for others, here’s the best you could do:


1. "You have not tried to establish a rapport with me in any way, or with anyone else, as far as I am able to tell."


That’s a true statement RL. I didn’t speak for anyone but myself, I said “as far as I am able to tell”, you have not tried to establish a rapport with anyone. That’s not “purporting” to speak FOR anyone, that’s a personal observation, something you have *encouraged* me to do, based on “using your life experience to come to conclusions”. (RL, 3/14, 11:47am)


(concluded next post)


religiouslib- dishonest as day is long 2


(Part 2 of 2, continued from previous post)


2. "You use this forum to try to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator, instead of setting the bar higher and reaching for it."


ANOTHER true statement RL, speaking for myself based on my own first-hand experience. (cf. RL, 3/14, 11:47am)


If this was our 1st conversation, I’d still point out your error, but I’d give you the benefit of the doubt.


But that’s not what happened here, RL. Intellectual dishonesty is your regular “M.O.”


When you read my challenge, you reviewed my posts, and you realized that you were caught in yet another lie.


You couldn’t just ignore my challenge because I closed off that escape route by saying “If you can’t, then you concede that you’re a liar.”


So you had post something, and the only way you could do it was to CHANGE your ACCUSATION from “purport to speak for others” TO “where you include others than yourself”, a very DIFFERENT proposition.


You’re as DISHONEST as the day is long, RL.


But I’ve learned to count on your intellectual dishonesty and lack of credibility...


religiouslib - You got me. (1 of 4)


RL: “and now please produce your list of posts from the 4th through the 14th so i can see that you have out posted me 2-1.”


Okay, all right already.


I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist.


I thought about making it “5 to 1”, but I went conservative and set the bar as low as I could for you.


I knew you would jump on it, using it as yet ANOTHER opportunity to weasel out of answering ANY of the questions that I have asked you, again, for the EIGHTH (8th) time in a row!


What’s that disclaimer about past performance not being an accurate predictor of future behavior?


We can throw that one out when it comes to you, RL. I did NOT predict that you would brazenly change your accusation, creating a new lie after the fact in order to escape your previous lie, but…


I was confident you would grab the opportunity to change the subject again and avoid answering my questions by seizing on my comment that:

“If I was a betting man, I’d bet (conservatively) that I have out-posted you at least 2 to 1 over any given 7-day period in the last 4 weeks, since our last discussion.”



But then you tried to go “whole hog” on me, CHANGING THE RULES (again) to an *11* day period instead of just 7, and no doubt your MOST productive 11 day period in the last 4 weeks too, just to be on the safe side, right RL?



But okay, you got me either way, whether we go by seven days or with your rule change to 11 days:


RL: “and now please produce your list of posts from the 4th through the 14th so i can see that you have out posted me 2-1.” (3/15, 7:45pm)



You got me.



I can’t show you that I out-posted you 2-1 on the dates from the 4th through the 14th of March, because you had 26 posts during that period of time, and I had 185, and that means that instead of out-posting you by only 2 to 1, I actually out-posted you by more than 700%, or 7.115 to 1.








I’d never ask you to take my word for it though, RL.


(continued next post)


religiouslib - You got me. (2 of 4)



(continued from previous post)



You know that I would never ask you to take my word for it RL, here they are, as promised:


March 04, 2008 1:06AM
March 04, 2008 2:13AM
March 04, 2008 2:20AM
March 04, 2008 2:29AM
March 04, 2008 4:43AM
March 04, 2008 4:45AM
March 04, 2008 4:47AM
March 04, 2008 4:49AM
March 04, 2008 4:52AM
March 04, 2008 4:55AM
March 04, 2008 4:57AM
March 04, 2008 4:59AM
March 04, 2008 5:01AM
March 04, 2008 5:10AM
March 04, 2008 5:13AM
March 04, 2008 5:16AM
March 04, 2008 5:19AM
March 04, 2008 5:20AM
March 04, 2008 5:23AM
March 04, 2008 5:29AM
March 04, 2008 5:38AM
March 04, 2008 8:22PM
March 04, 2008 8:26PM
March 04, 2008 8:29PM
March 04, 2008 8:34PM
March 04, 2008 8:38PM
March 04, 2008 8:41PM
March 04, 2008 8:43PM
March 04, 2008 8:45PM
March 04, 2008 8:47PM
March 04, 2008 8:53PM
March 04, 2008 8:55PM
March 04, 2008 8:58PM
March 04, 2008 9:00PM
March 04, 2008 9:02PM
March 04, 2008 9:04PM
March 04, 2008 9:11PM
March 04, 2008 9:13PM
March 05, 2008 10:05AM
March 05, 2008 10:09AM
March 05, 2008 10:21AM
March 05, 2008 11:41AM
March 05, 2008 11:48AM
March 07, 2008 8:12PM
March 07, 2008 11:14PM
March 08, 2008 3:08AM
March 08, 2008 3:13AM
March 08, 2008 3:23AM
March 08, 2008 9:52PM
March 08, 2008 9:54PM
March 08, 2008 9:57PM
March 08, 2008 10:00PM
March 08, 2008 10:02PM
March 08, 2008 10:06PM
March 08, 2008 10:08PM
March 08, 2008 10:11PM
March 08, 2008 10:13PM
March 08, 2008 10:17PM
March 08, 2008 10:22PM
March 08, 2008 10:27PM
March 08, 2008 10:29PM
March 08, 2008 10:33PM
March 08, 2008 10:39PM
March 08, 2008 10:43PM
March 08, 2008 10:47PM
March 08, 2008 10:53PM
March 08, 2008 10:55PM
March 08, 2008 11:04PM
March 09, 2008 12:07AM
March 09, 2008 12:14AM
March 09, 2008 12:17AM
March 09, 2008 12:55AM
March 09, 2008 1:01AM
March 09, 2008 1:15AM
March 09, 2008 1:30AM
March 09, 2008 1:34AM
March 09, 2008 1:37AM
March 09, 2008 1:39AM


(continued next post)


religiouslib - You got me. (3 of 4)


(continued from previous post)


March 09, 2008 3:02AM
March 09, 2008 4:05AM
March 09, 2008 9:01AM
March 09, 2008 10:48PM
March 09, 2008 11:04PM
March 09, 2008 11:08PM
March 09, 2008 11:19PM
March 09, 2008 11:26PM
March 09, 2008 11:33PM
March 09, 2008 11:36PM
March 10, 2008 2:13AM
March 10, 2008 2:15AM
March 10, 2008 2:19AM
March 10, 2008 2:23AM
March 10, 2008 2:28AM
March 10, 2008 2:31AM
March 10, 2008 2:34AM
March 10, 2008 1:17PM
March 10, 2008 2:16PM
March 10, 2008 2:23PM
March 10, 2008 2:43PM
March 10, 2008 2:55PM
March 10, 2008 3:25PM
March 10, 2008 4:02PM
March 10, 2008 4:29PM
March 10, 2008 4:34PM
March 10, 2008 4:39PM
March 10, 2008 4:40PM
March 10, 2008 4:47PM
March 10, 2008 4:48PM
March 10, 2008 4:53PM
March 10, 2008 4:56PM
March 10, 2008 5:00PM
March 10, 2008 5:01PM
March 10, 2008 5:03PM
March 10, 2008 5:06PM
March 10, 2008 5:09PM
March 10, 2008 5:11PM
March 10, 2008 5:14PM
March 10, 2008 5:16PM
March 10, 2008 5:20PM
March 10, 2008 5:27PM
March 10, 2008 5:32PM
March 10, 2008 5:35PM
March 10, 2008 5:38PM
March 10, 2008 5:41PM
March 10, 2008 5:45PM
March 10, 2008 5:55PM
March 10, 2008 5:56PM
March 10, 2008 6:01PM
March 10, 2008 6:05PM
March 10, 2008 6:09PM
March 10, 2008 6:15PM
March 10, 2008 6:19PM
March 10, 2008 6:21PM
March 10, 2008 6:23PM
March 10, 2008 6:35PM
March 13, 2008 12:59PM
March 13, 2008 1:59PM
March 13, 2008 2:05PM
March 13, 2008 2:34PM
March 13, 2008 3:18PM
March 13, 2008 3:20PM
March 13, 2008 6:08PM
March 13, 2008 10:56PM
March 13, 2008 10:58PM
March 13, 2008 11:00PM
March 13, 2008 11:00PM
March 13, 2008 11:02PM
March 13, 2008 11:03PM
March 14, 2008 12:40AM
March 14, 2008 12:42AM
March 14, 2008 12:43AM
March 14, 2008 12:47AM
March 14, 2008 1:04AM
March 14, 2008 8:22PM
March 14, 2008 8:23PM
March 14, 2008 8:27PM
March 14, 2008 8:31PM
March 14, 2008 8:35PM



(continued next post)


religiouslib - You got me. (4 of 4)


(continued from previous post)


March 14, 2008 9:01PM
March 14, 2008 9:03PM
March 14, 2008 9:06PM
March 14, 2008 9:09PM
March 14, 2008 9:13PM
March 14, 2008 9:16PM
March 14, 2008 9:19PM
March 14, 2008 9:22PM
March 14, 2008 9:25PM
March 14, 2008 9:31PM
March 14, 2008 9:33PM
March 14, 2008 9:35PM
March 14, 2008 9:41PM
March 14, 2008 9:52PM
March 14, 2008 9:59PM
March 14, 2008 10:08PM
March 14, 2008 10:12PM
March 14, 2008 10:20PM
March 14, 2008 10:25PM
March 14, 2008 10:32PM
March 14, 2008 10:37PM
March 14, 2008 11:02PM
March 14, 2008 11:07PM
March 14, 2008 11:14PM
March 14, 2008 11:17PM
March 14, 2008 11:27PM
March 14, 2008 11:31PM


By my count, that’s 185 of my posts to your 26 posts, from March 4th to March 14th, the dates chosen by you.


185 to 26.


That’s 7 to 1.


That’s gotta hurt, RL…



~~~



Now, as usual, I have answered and addressed ALL of your points and questions AGAIN.



Will you answer just a few of mine?


This is your ninth (9th !) opportunity to either answer, or dodge and run for the 10th time:



1. religiouslib writes: “i see a majority of females who are voting for hillaary is that sexism?”


If they are voting for her primarily because she is a woman, because of her “sex”, then it IS sexism.


What do you call it?



~~~



2. religiouslib writes: “i don't think democrats are voting for hillary because she is a woman or obama because he is black.”


So you think 90%+ of blacks are voting for Obama because of his stand on the issues?


And you think the lopsided majorities of single white women and elderly white democrats are voting for Hillary because of her stand on the issues?


Do you REALLY think that?



~~~



3. religiouslib writes: “i voted for obama because i like his message.”


Why don’t you explain Obama’s “message” for us here, in your own words?



Take me on, RL… ;-)


scott
congratualations on out posting me.

quite an accomplishment
.
it is quite strange to me that when i look under "your votes" all my posts are numerical(including the month) while yours actually have the month spelled out. i wonder why the discrepancy.




the idea that you would try to claim your posts did not refer to others is laughable and reminds of bill clintons famous definition of what is...is.



scott, you do not get to set the rules and be the final arbiter on what is true and what is not.

you seem to think that you can determine what is logical and what is true and any objection to those conclusions is false.


i can assure you that is not the case.

i do know this.

a Christian does not demean others.

and you do it on a continual basis and in a consciously false manner and, more importantly, seem to get pleasure from it.

there is something terribly wrong about that.

it is impossible to debate someone that takes pleasure in insulting others.








scott
so now you are stalking me on other threads.

not only is that extreme vindictiveness(not really a Christian attribute) but really quite creepy.

i respectfully ask you to never respond to my posts again and i will do the same.

go stalk someone else please.

religiouslib - Part 1


religiouslib writes: “scott - congratualations on out posting me. quite an accomplishment”


No, it’s not an “accomplishment”, and I didn’t do for the purpose of achieving a higher post-count.


It’s simply evidence to prove you wrong, after you avoided my direct questions again in favor of going for the “gotcha” moment, and to show everyone how quickly you would drop the ‘wholesome’ façade and go for the jugular when you thought you had me.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “it is quite strange to me that when i look under "your votes" all my posts are numerical(including the month) while yours actually have the month spelled out. i wonder why the discrepancy.”


No grand conspiracy RL, that’s how they show up on my computer screen, and here’s how it went down.


I copied and pasted the subject line of each post, from the month to the time, in the following fashion:

March, 16, 2008 12:51 AM


When I went to post, several of the posts were too long, over the TH 2,000 character limit.

The easiest solution was to eliminate a few unnecessary spaces in the date/time listings, so I eliminated the space between the “time” and the “AM” or “PM”, and I eliminated the “comma” after “March”.


Example:

March 16, 2008 12:51AM



With 185 examples, eliminating those two characters/spaces saved 370 spaces, which was enough to allow the messages to post without editing the body of the message itself.


~~~


Now, what are you suggesting or implying by asking “I wonder why the discrepancy”?


religiouslib - Part 2


religiouslib writes: “the idea that you would try to claim your posts did not refer to others is laughable and reminds of bill clintons famous definition of what is...is.”


There is a clear and obvious difference between speaking FOR someone, i.e., speaking presumptively on someone else’s behalf when they have not given you authority or permission to do so, and making reference to personal observations that include a third party without tying them to your own beliefs or opinions in any way.


And you know it.


And so does everyone else. That means you’re not fooling anybody, that your conduct is occurring in plain sight, it doesn’t mean I’m speaking presumptively on behalf of anyone in particular.


And it has nothing to do with your red-herring smokescreen about what the definition of the word “is” is, but your attempt to portray the truth in such a manner has the effect of making you very small, in my estimation.


Thanks for helping to make my case RL, keep going, this is exactly what I’m talking about. You never play by the rules, especially when the pressure is on, you always twist and turn and spin, and that’s fine by me. I’ll keep giving you rope, you take as much as you need.


Since your purpose for being here is not in good faith but to sabotage, and since your immediate mission has changed to one of escape, I don’t expect for a moment to extract any honest acknowledgment of the truth from you. My appeal regarding the facts at this point is to the jury, whoever might be reading, and he or she will decide for him or her self.


religiouslib - Part 3


religiouslib writes: “scott, you do not get to set the rules and be the final arbiter on what is true and what is not.”


Spoken like a diehard relativist, for whom truth is entirely subjective, whatever he thinks it is at any given point in time, depending on the situation.


You’re right about setting the rules, I don’t get to do that, and I haven’t.


The rules are the generally accepted principles of logic and reason, the same rules that allow society to function, primary among them being the acknowledgment of reality, particularly when presented with either overwhelming evidence or incontrovertible fact.


The fact is, YOU do not get to IGNORE the rules, as if you are exempt from them. Like any good obfuscation artist, you tried to twist that around to make it appear as though I was the ‘rule giver’ and ‘arbiter’ though.


No, the rules are understood by everyone, and they apply to everyone. The “arbiter” in this case is the jury, the reader.


And the final Arbiter is God.


There’s always a chance that you may succeed in fooling the jury, but none of us can fool God.


religiouslib - Part 4


religiouslib writes: “you seem to think that you can determine what is logical and what is true and any objection to those conclusions is false. i can assure you that is not the case.”


Wrong again, RL.


And, it’s just another excuse.


As long as it’s just between you and me when everyone else has moved on to more recent Threads, you can deny the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and as long as you stick to your story, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, then truth and logic don’t matter.


But when there is an unbiased third party witness to the conversation, a jury, so to speak, then the rules begin to count, because now your credibility as a sentient being is at stake, and reality (not me!) dictates “what is logical and true”, and it’s always amazing to see how quickly a faker realizes what is logical and true once his “con” is exposed and there are witnesses watching.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i do know this. a Christian does not demean others.”


That’s another diversionary tactic, attempting to use my faith in God as a weapon against me, but this isn’t about “demeaning” anyone, it’s about the truth RL.


It’s about the truth.



~~~



religiouslib writes: “and you do it on a continual basis and in a consciously false manner…”


You’re projecting again RL, something you admitted was hypocritical of you previously (3/14, 12:30am), and now you are compounding your error by bearing false witness against me in the process.


Worse, you know your accusation is false, making it a willful act, and that’s a sin RL, if you care about such things.


A Christian would, but like the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-10, you wear your screen-name like a religious title for the distinction and the air of credibility it brings you.


As those Pharisees were hypocrites, so is a man who professes to be a Christian but who has no truth in him.


religiouslib - Part 5


religiouslib writes: “and, more importantly, seem to get pleasure from it.”


I derive no pleasure at all from the discomfort you experience when the light of truth is shone upon your misdeeds, but I do take pleasure in the truth.


I love the truth RL, and I hate lies. It’s as simple as that.


I’m certain that’s why we keep crossing paths, because I love the truth and you hate it, and there will always be enmity between the two.


I’m not expecting you to have a “road to Damascus” moment, but I am hopeful that this direct approach will get through the wall of deception you have built around yourself.


The things that you do and the way you conduct yourself are character issues RL, and they’re serious, and they necessarily affect everything in your life, they’re not just limited to the time you spend posting on TownHall.


You have been blessed with a family, a wife and at least one son that you’ve mentioned. You have much to be grateful for, but you have made politics your religion and sacrificed truth in the pursuit of ideology.


And for what?


What possible temporal reward can ever be worth your soul, RL?



~~~



religiouslib writes: “there is something terribly wrong about that.”


There is something terribly wrong here, that’s for sure; you’re just confused or in denial about what it is.



religiouslib - Part 6


religiouslib writes: “it is impossible to debate someone that takes pleasure in insulting others.”


It’s not impossible, I’ve been debating someone in another Thread for four weeks now, a person who knows nothing but insult, constantly vilifying anyone he disagrees with, and he gets much pleasure from it. He searches for a weakness and when he finds a button that makes someone react, he presses it over and over again like a rat with a cocaine drip. He’s a real piece of work.


According to other participants in the thread, I’ve been cleaning this guy’s clock day in and day out, but he’s been brainwashed into his beliefs to such an extent that he’s practically unresponsive, preferring denial over reality.


You’re not that far gone I hope, but you are headed that direction RL. This other person’s heart appears to be hardened and his conscience seared, I don’t hold out much hope for him. He says he’s 70, and while it’s never too late to reject the lies and embrace the truth as long as we’re still breathing, it seems he has chosen his path.


I hope you’ll reconsider the path you’re on, before you reach the point of no return.


religiouslib - Part 7


religiouslib writes: “scott - so now you are stalking me on other threads.”


No, but that’s another attempt to remove the focus from yourself and to put me on the defensive. Knock yourself out, I’ll answer every charge, and then I’ll shine the light right back where it belongs.


You quoted ModMark without attribution earlier (3/15, 12:24pm) to lend support to your credibility and, once having done so, then attack me from what you intended to be an elevated perch.


But, as with everything you do, it was dishonest and you did it dishonestly.


An honest man doesn’t need to bring words of praise from another man in another Thread into the debate, and an honest man wouldn’t use them to elevate himself in preparation to launch an attack on someone else.


And an honest man wouldn’t post a quote without context, or without the name of the man who said those words.


You can spin and make excuses till the cows come home, but it won’t change anything RL. You may say you didn’t want to bring ModMark into the discussion, or that you didn’t know if he would want his name associated with our discussion in a Thread he was not participating in, or any other number of excuses.


None of that matters RL, it was poor judgment. The right thing to do is to let your own words speak for yourself, and if you need to bring in someone else’s words to shore up your credibility then you attribute those words to the man who spoke them, and if you’re not sure he wants to be mentioned, then you ask, or you don’t use them.


See, it’s not hard RL, not if you try and if your heart and your motives are honest.


If you were a kid, I’d cut you some slack here, but you’re old enough to know better.


religiouslib - Part 8


religiouslib writes: “not only is that extreme vindictiveness(not really a Christian attribute) but really quite creepy.”


That’s another dishonest attempt to change the focus from yourself onto me, and I accept it gladly, long enough to show that I am operating in good faith and then shine the light of truth right back where it belongs.


1. There is nothing at all “vindictive” about exposing dishonesty and lies.


2. There is nothing “vindictive” about shining the light of truth on a habitually dishonest troublemaker, and adjusting the spotlight to keep him in the center as he moves around for the comfort of the shadows he’s accustomed to.


3. You can leave if you like, or you can come clean and be welcome to stay, but what you cannot do is remain dishonest and stay and not have me shine the light of truth on you. Get used to it, or change, or leave. The choice is entirely yours.


4. There is nothing “vindictive” or un-Christian about exposing wolves in sheep’s clothing, and you know it, RL.


"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:15-16, KJV)



~~~



religiouslib writes: “i respectfully ask you to never respond to my posts again and i will do the same.”


I have just as much right to post here as you do, and if I see you posting lies and being dishonest, I’m going to call you on it, no different than if someone was doing something disrespectful or illegal out in front of my house. It’s the only way to keep the neighborhood decent.


And you always have the opportunity to defend your words, if you think you can.


And we can do this as long as it takes.

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