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Friday, February 22, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Terrorists' Rights
by Paul Greenberg
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In another case of gross disregard for due process, a senior leader of Hezbollah was blown apart on a Damascus street last week without even a by-your-leave, let alone being read his Miranda rights.

Imad Mughniyeh's dossier may have been extensive, but he never got his day in court. Indeed, he seems to have done everything he could to avoid it. It's said he was unrecognizable even before last week's blast, having undergone plastic surgery more than once in order to avoid the kind of unpleasantness that finally did him in.

The notorious Mr. Mughniyeh met his end in K'far Soussa, a fashionable Damascus neighborhood, where he was said to have been visiting Iranian friends. (Syria is notably hospitable to foreigners, at least if they're supporting terrorists.)

From a humble peasant background, Imad Mughniyeh had risen to the top echelon of Hezbollah by dint of devoted service. His resume, aka rap sheet, goes back at least to 1983 and the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, which killed more than 300. He's also been credited with the murder of 63 the same year in an attack on the American embassy there.

Imad Mughniyeh is said - mere hearsay again! - to have been behind the hijacking of a TWA jetliner that went on for 17 days and included the beating, torture and eventual murder of Petty Officer Robert Dean Stethem, U.S.N., who was singled out for special treatment. (At the time, Americans swore we would never forget him, but of course we pretty much did. Just as the memory of September 11, 2001, grows dim in the American memory, and those who recall it in this election year are dismissed as, yes, fearmongers.)

Space, and the shadowy nature of a career in terrorism, a crowded field these days, does not permit a comprehensive review of the exploits attributed to the sanguinary Mr. Mughniyeh, or a full account of the blood debt he ran up. Suffice it to say that more than one intelligence agency had a powerful incentive to collect it.

As head of Islamic Jihad in Lebanon during the chaotic 1980s, the tireless Mr. Mughniyeh supervised the kidnapping of dozens of Americans and other Westerners for ransom. But a man's got to make a living, doesn't he?

By the 1990s, Imad Mughniyeh was actually indicted - in Argentina of all places. He was charged with the bombing of a Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, which killed 85, and was named in an arrest warrant in connection with an earlier blast at the Israeli embassy there. His connections to both were so clear that even Argentina's lax authorities finally had to take notice. (Gentle Reader may recall that always simpatico Buenos Aires was the sometime home of a mild-mannered genocidist named Adolf Eichmann before he was extradited to Israel with shocking disregard for the formalities.)

The FBI almost caught up with the elusive Mr. Mughniyeh in 1995 during a scheduled layover of a Middle East Airlines flight in Saudi Arabia, but our ever helpful Saudi friends, with their well-known regard for civil liberties, waved the plane on. Again and again, the long arm of the law proved remarkably short in the case of Imad Mughniyeh. Not till last week did he who lived by the car bomb die by it.

But what solid evidence was there against the much sought-after Mr. Mughniyeh except a raft of investigations around the world, maybe a trial in absentia or two, and common knowledge?

As an Arkansas legislator of my acquaintance likes to tell people who say they've heard so much about him, "They never proved those charges!"

On the basis of apparently only coincidental if convincing evidence, the secretive Mr. Mughniyeh's nice car now has been reduced to a smudge on the asphalt of a fashionable Damascus street - without even a preliminary hearing, a writ of habeas corpus, or a FISA warrant. Where is the ACLU when you need it?

The sudden, not to say explosive demise of Mr. Mughniyeh is part of a disturbing pattern: Start by blowing up notorious terrorists and soon you'll be tapping their phone conversations without a warrant.

Just imagine what might have happened to this innocent (until proven guilty) subject if he had come into American custody. Why, he might have been waterboarded!

Oh, the horror. Look what happened when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, now formally accused of having been the driving force behind the attacks of September 11th, was subjected to this watery treatment. Word is it took only 45 seconds or so before the previously recalcitrant terrorist decided it would be the better course of valor to reveal al-Qaida's table of organization in Europe, information that may have spared who knows how many lives.

But what are mere lives compared to the polemics of pundits, politicians and other such purists? Waterboarding, they have concluded, is torture, and torture is illegal, ergo waterboarding was, is and always will be illegal. No need for a court actually to rule. Yet this stubborn administration refuses to forswear its theoretical use in the always unforeseeable future, as if circumstances might still alter cases.

Or as Alexander Hamilton put it succinctly in the Federalist Papers, "It is impossible to foresee or define the extent and variety of national exigencies, or the correspondent extent and variety of the means which may be necessary to satisfy them."

But that was before we had all these diviners who know the United States of America is so secure that such means will never be necessary to protect it. Call it a September 10th cast of mind. It was widespread before December 7, 1941, too.

As for Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who did fall into American hands, he is now to be tried by a military commission. But military trials for illegal combatants, even if they go back to George Washington's continental army, have come under fire, too, and by the time all the lawyering is done, the accused my have died peacefully of old age in some Club Fed.

Times have changed since Franklin Roosevelt used military commissions to try a group of German saboteurs, including one U.S. citizen, who'd been apprehended on these shores. Their trial took all of three weeks and promptly led to a number of summary executions. But of course that war was different; we intended to win it.

This country has many arrows in its quiver, and some need never be used, but why forswear a single one? The answer is obvious in this case: So that a prospective Khalid Sheik Mohammed can be assured that he need never fear being led to the edge of a watery grave, then returned to life only in order to reveal the names and whereabouts of his co-conspirators, and finally be executed without honor by order of a military court, as befits a mass murderer who has broken all the laws of war and humanity. Surely that kind of justice, and deterrence, belongs to a less enlightened era. Just as does the summary execution of Imad Mughniyeh last week just because he deserved it.

This latest, shocking disregard for the rights of a long-sought suspect finally tracked down in Damascus bears all the marks of a CIA operation, except of course that it was effective. Congress needs to round up the usual suspects at once, issue subpoenas all around, roundly condemn the Bush administration for its disregard for civil liberties, and begin a full-fledged investigation in that order. Sentence First, Verdict Afterwards!

But suspicion already has shifted to the Israelis, as it always does. To quote Yossi Alpher, a former Mossad agent, "No matter who did it, they're going to blame us." Why not? It's tradition!

Jerusalem, of course, has denied responsibility/credit for Mr. Mughniyeh's untimely end. Just as Israel used to officially explain that a suspicious structure on its territory - in the little town of Dimona in the Negev - was just a little ol' textile plant. Even if it did bear an uncanny resemblance to a nuclear reactor. Now the world is told that the Mossad had nothing to do with this latest little operation in Damascus. Uh huh.

Clearly an emergency session of the UN Security Council needs to be called at once and still another solemn resolution passed condemning Israel for another heinous act of self-defense. Once again it seems to have assassinated a terrorist leader for no better reason than his dedication to its destruction and to violence in general.

Surely no one can claim that justice was done in the murderous Mr. Mughniyeh's case. Considering the almost instantaneous effect of a well-placed car bomb, he scarcely suffered.

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Peter J. Gay
To answer your question as to who decides who is an enemy combatant:
The determination of enemy combatant status has traditionally resided with the military commander who is authorized to engage the enemy with deadly force. In this regard, the task ultimately falls within the President’s constitutional responsibility as Commander in Chief to identify which forces and persons to engage or capture and detain during an armed conflict. Of course, there is no requirement that the President make such determinations personally, and in the vast majority of cases he does not do so. Rather, consistent with longstanding historical practice and applicable rules of engagement, the task is normally a function of the military command structure.

In the current conflict, military personnel ordinarily make enemy combatant determinations during combat operations, under the combatant commander’s direction. With respect to individuals captured in the United States, to date DoD has detained only Abdullah al Muhajir, also known as Jose Padilla. The President, as Commander in Chief, determined that Mr. Padilla is an enemy combatant. (Council on foreign relations)

For constitutional authority, I suggest you read Article II of the Constitution and also read the Geneva Convention (if you can stay awake...it is dry)

Liberals...
Don't know the difference between the words target and accused.

This blather about needing to prove someone guilty of being a terrorist is obtuse extrapolation and utterly devoid of common sense. If a person is in Hezbolla, that person is a target and should be killed. If a person is in Al Qaida that person is a target and should be killed. The association with the group which has declared war on the USA warrants their death whith extreme prejudice. The more we kill the better off we will all be.


Dearest lilly - inasmuch as your point..
--
...seems to be that it is the restraints upon our own government's actions that we should look to maintain, I have to say (for once) that I wholly agree with you.

What everyone here must understand, however, is that the treatment of "enemy combatants" need not require of the federal government the sorts of portmanteau police state masturbatory fantasies as we find in the stupid and unconstitutional USA PATRIOT Act (remember, it's an acronym; it's *not* "The Patriot Act").

Statutes in existance on 11 September 2001 would serve perfectly to manage the whole of what our spineless, brainless, gutless federal government has called "The War on Terror," including the holding facilities at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere, and the treatment of these enemy combatants without recourse to habeas corpus or any of the other usages of the U.S. Code of Criminal Justice.

And they cover the work perfectly well, to good strategic, operational, and tactical effect, without outrage to the U.S. Constitution or the risk of violating the restrictions of government power laid out in Article 1, Section 9, or any of the Amendments.

Enemy combatants, y'see, aren't criminals.

They're not being punished (except as they may break certain of the laws of war, and thereby become subject to the codes of military jurisprudence) but rather held to prevent them from further adverse action against the people and the Constitution of these United States.

They're denied access to what you stupid "Liberals" are calling "evidence against them" because it's not "evidence" but rather *military intelligence* and you're not supposed to give enemy combatants access to military intelligence.

Even if they've been taken prisoner.

--

"WAR ON TERROR"
To quote Dan Akyroid(sp), Lilly "you ignorant....I just can't say it , even to you. In war, I guess you do not know this, you kill the enemy. Sometimes you blow them up. Sometimes civilians are around. That is why war should be all or nothing. Get it over with. Fewer innocents will be killed in the long run, which is what civilians should do, when a terrorist comes around.

ONLY ONE COMMENT, MR. GREENBERG
Amen.

Okay, make that two:

And Amen.

To Steal a line from The Untouchables
Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?

just insert islamofascist in the place of Capone. Lilly sometimes life ain't so clean and tidy...

Look, Peter J
The guy was a commander in Hezbollah. That makes him a target. You aparently don't believe it is a war. They do.

Well, Lilly, it is not unlawful to
Blow to smithereens combatants in war. They should have used a much bigger bomb. MUCH bigger.

Terroist Rights
AS far as I'm concerned they don't have any rights. Taking them out the way Israel does is the best way. Target them and then destroy them.
Systematically one by one.I don't know that the
Israelis did the exterminating but it's time someone did.
Former Marine and a Patriot

Satire
I think Mr. Greenberg was engaging in a little satire here supposedly taking up for the terrorist. Being Jewish I think Mr. Greenberg fully understands how long he would last in an Islamic world. This terrorist got exactly what he had coming and I'm sure Mr. Greenberg agrees. If not then I obviously misunderstood.

Well-crafted logic, Mr. Greenberg
Only a fool would dispute the logic in this column. And sure enough, when I scan the thread... scary... and sad.

lilly writes:
The minute we suspend laws for terrorists---or anyone we don't like---we place ourselves in danger.

Yes Lilly I'm sure that is what the people who jumped out of the WTC were thinking while the flames were licking at their feet. It's this type of simplistic thinking which got this country in the position it is in. After the first attack on the WTC Clinton treated like a crime rather than an act of war. Yes the FBI captured Ramsi Ysepf but when the planes hit the WTC he was cheering in his cell. Face it Lilly there are bad people who want to kill us and treating them like jaywalkers isn't going to work.

indyconantidum
What is shameful for the LIBS to scream that know one knew of these acts but the LIBS are in Controll of all the special interest groups including INTEL in Congress and are in these meetings and still come up with I didnt understand all that stuff. Then guess what you need to be relieved. I would hope to think that if you are on the DEFENSE COMMITTEE that you understand what DEFENSE means.

I know that some are confused with their settings but to be a member of a SECURITY and come out and blab or Leak to the NYTIMES and to the enemy what we are doing to track and hunt them down is what I am mad about.

How can we defend this country when half of it dont think that there is a TERRORIST problem just a BUSH problem.

It will be the downfall of this country one day, i just hope im gone by then

Lily
Let me get this straight, who is going to turn the terrorist over or let our troops in to get him. You mean you wouldn't mind disobeying other countries laws to get your man. Something tells me that isn't true. How do we catch criminals if other countries allow them entry. And no one said the US did this.

Chuck
When you become C-I-C I will care about who you blame, but the president made a decision about terrorist supporters that thumb their nose at the UN (remind of you anyone today) after 9/11 and all the dims and probably well meaning independents, repubs and dems (I will give them the benefit of the doubt until they quote moveon or Hi-liar-y then the get the "i") can criticize in meetings or conversations but not for consumption beyond the shore.

That undermines our troops and endangers their lives.

These idiot dims just don't get it. Go into a DC meeting with the admin and pound the desk or whatever but keep your mouth shut in public during war. Get it!

Lon
Torture had nothing to do with the invasion of IRAQ.

The Congress rushed to give this President the authority to go to war without reading the INTEL report. Now I dont know about you but I blame CONGRESS fore this WAR not the President. I blame the president on how this war was ran but for invading IRAQ. I blame CONGRESS

Also Waterboarding is not TORTURE it is a interrogation process that works but it doesnt kill people. Waterboarding only makes your mind thinks you are going to drown. I have been waterboarded and it works. Torture is done to cause bodily harm and a big difference.

Please dont try and convince people about something that you have not experienced before.




Murderers Rights
Maybe Satan will read him his rights while he is burning in Hell, but I doubt it.

Greenberg is right
Without torture we would not have been able to get all of the false information needed to win support for the invasion of Iraq. The world has never developed a better system for obtaining the false information one wants than torture. So unless we want to give up on the possiblity of future Iraqs it would be absurd to object to continuing our policy of torture.

After all if one can't aspire to emulate the terrorists who can one look up to in this world.

Chuck - Invitations on the Way
Your attempt at humor, stating that the Liberals would simply invite the terrorists for tea and try to be nice with them is NOT really good satire. It's not satire, because this type of invitation is exactly what the Libs wish to do. And, if the terrorist won't accept our invitation, the libs will go to their "place" hat in hand to talk with them. We must understand that the Libs do NOT see radical Islam as a threat to Western Civilization. In fact, the hard core Libs see Christianity as the worse threat. Even when threatened with Shiria Law in the UK, the British Libs see no threat. Hell, they are more cncerned about imprisoning potential terrorists for too long without charges as a more serious threat to their "freedom" than a theocratic law that supports Honor Killings. A liberal judge in this country recently ruled in favor of a known Whahabi radical, and possible terrorist, allowing the man to assume custody of his two unwilling sons and sweep them off to Syria for proper Islamic training.

See, those terrible Christians are against abortion and gay marriage, and the Libs seem to think that these are not Islamic issues. Think again! Radical Islamists really have more respect for Christians (people of the Book) than they do for atheists and agnostics - read the Koran.

ex-Wyomingite
I think you're correct on pretty much everything except the conclusions you draw:

Clearly throughout American history, Presidents and others have disregarded the rule of Constitutional law, but it has always been to our detriment! For one example, the Federalist structure of the Republic has never been restored since the Civil War, and probably never will be.

Also, regarding not living long enough to experience the consequences of these events... some of us care what kind of country we're leaving for the coming generations of Americans. Will our legacy be one of buckling under fear and surrendering our rights and freedoms for the sake of self-preservation? Or will it be the legacy of the greatest Americans, who have fought against all threats to freedom, (be those threats "left," "right," center, or whatever else)?

I would argue that it is entirely plausible that policies used by the "right" to combat terrorism could one day be used by the left against them! That sort of thing is not uncommon in history...

lilly aught go look up "projection"
... in her Funk and Wagnell.

Psychopathological Projection Syndrome. The Socialist Psychosis' definitive symptom.

Which causes her to regularly projectile project the Progressive Psychopathology here and in so doing to bare her intellectual and moral bankruptcy and to as obscenely expose to public view the black hole that does her and every other of her ilk for a soul.

lilly aught go look up "projection"
... in her Funk and Wagnell.

Psychopathological Projection Syndrome. The Socialist Psychosis' definitive symptom.

Which causes her to regularly projectile project the Progressive Psychopathology here and in so doing to bare her intellectual and moral bankruptcy and to as obscenely expose to public view the black hole that does her and every other of her ilk for a soul.

lilly aught go look up "projection"
... in her Funk and Wagnell.

Psychopathological Projection Syndrome. The Socialist Psychosis' definitive symptom.

Which causes her to regularly projectile project the Progressive Psychopathology here and in so doing to bare her intellectual and moral bankruptcy and to as obscenely expose to public view the black hole that does her and every other of her ilk for a soul.

terroist
This was a good article. I think the writer is right. I think terroist deserve the right for trial. Just because of someone's race it doesn't mean they are automatically a criminal/terroist. If the person is innocent they should not have to pay the consequences as if they were guilty.

Terrorists
If they did something wrong then they deserve what they get.They're not all terrorists.

terrorists
I dont agree with the writer. I dont believe that they should have any wrights. They dont care about anyones life so why should we care about how they are treated? It makes so sence to me why people bring it up. The law helps more criminals than it hepls the innocent.

terroist
I feel that what has happened is great! I feel that these terroist should be punished for what they have done to the American people. In my opinion I dont feel that there will ever be peace in todays world. I know thats what us as americans hope for but, I dont think it will.. The only time we will have peace will be when the lord above comes back and takes all the anger away..

Think about it.
I understand that sometimes we stereotype people, but terroism is a problem. Yes I do think that we should do what we can as a country to try and stop terrorism.

Lilly,
Why bother taking them as prisoners? Just kill them! That goes to show that really are living in a stupidy world.

I also agree with Jake Booher
I believe in todays world that we do need to make an example. We need to show what needs to stop. I wonder what the new preident will do about this and it better not be obama or clinton.

Terrorists' Rights
My own opinion is I could really care less about the terrorist let alone their rights...

this is jus crazy
I think the writer is right. I think the terrorists we catch should be tried because if they are guilty we would know for sure, but if they were innocent then we know not to accuse them. i say this because not all iraqians or arabians (or watever you want to call them) are terrorists. but we like to think that way. its just really crazy

Terroists
I think that they deserve everything that they get.

"Enemy Combatant"
Again, my question is what constitutes an "enemy combatant," and who is authorized to make that determination with respect to a United States citizen.

Does he have to be apprehended on a foreign battlefield? What if it's in the United States? Is there never a situation where a US citizen on US soil can be declared an enemy combatant?

"US Citizens whom are captured... committing sabotage against their country have renounced their citizenship!" Doesn't an act of sabotage need to be proven in a trial by jury before a citizen loses his Constitutional rights?

Peter J. Gay
You say you are a conservative, but your argument is more than a little fuzzy. The Constitution is not the only body of laws under which we are governed, but rather the basis. There are many others, including those related to enemy combatants. We are a signatory of the Geneva Convention, a set of international laws drawn up to regulate behavior during war/conflict. You may argue that Padilla doesn't fit the definition, but the point is moot; he was tried and convicted in a civilian court. Lindh, however, is a completely different story. He was captured on a foreign battlefield, not in uniform, armed and fighting against our forces. I suggest you read the Geneva Convention. We are legally authorized to execute people like him whenever and wherever they are captured.

Whats going on???
The stuff that happen was crazy and we need to do a better job to stop terrorism and the people who are attacking the U.S.

:)
I think that terrorist should het everything that is coming to them. They are the ones that mess with The United States.

Whats going on???
The stuff that happen was crazy and we need to do a better job to stop terrorism and the people who are attacking the U.S.

Terroists Right's
The terroists in my opinon should be publicly hung to make an example out of them.

:]
I hope the whole world can rise above terrorism and perhaps we could all live in tee-pees.

bein an citizen
When we as a us citizens do somthin like this its not right. But for someone else to go and pull of bull like this its ok. I think its goes back on your nationality. If we wasnt free then it would be ok to pull a stunt like this.

US Citizens
US Citizens whom are captured in combat or committing sabatoge against their country have renounced their citizenship! They are no longer entitled to the same protection as a US citizen. See enemy combatant.

Government by Laws
Those of you who get all misty eyed over John Walker Lindh, consider he was captured on a foreign battlefield. He absolutely, was an enemy combatant and not protected by any US Law or by the Geneva Convention. He should have faced a firing squad. You want to support the Constitution? Read and understand it first.

Cuba
(to renny)

I haven't been talking about non- U.S. citizens. And clearly the people who flew planes into the twin towers were not U.S. citizens either, so that does not address my objection.

------------

Y no me digas que yo no sé lo que pasa en Cuba. El suegro de mi hermano fue preso politico allá.

Es exactamente la misma cosa que quisiera que eviten los Americanos. Ojalá que nunca suba a poder en este país un tirano igual que Fidel. Lamentablemente, pues, parece que Obame puede ser nuestro mismo Castro.

Lo que hace falta es respetar a nuestra propia Constitución en vez de ignorarla por miedo de terroristas.

Democrats
In my opinion, Democrats are far worse offenders than Republicans in all this.

What will President Obama or Clinton do with the USA Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act in their hands? I shudder to think.

You know, speaking of Democrats.. There was a lot of protest to be heard from Conservatives when Bill Clinton sent troops into "police actions" around the world, including offering U.N. resolutions as justification for sending troops into Iraq. Where were the liberal protestors then? They're a bunch of hypocrites. This interventionism and unconstitutional warfare is their game; why the Conservatives decided to co-opt it I doubt I'll ever know. For crying out loud, F.D.R?? Since when was he a shining example of Conservative principle? For that matter, since when did F.D.R. appear to have the remotest respect for the Constitution??

Back on topic, though, as far as I'm concerned this is Bill Clinton's war, more so than George Bush's. Republicans and Democrats alike have been guilty of supporting wars when their party occupies the White House, and opposing them when the reverse is true.

My point is you don't need to lecture me about the Democrats! I've been a Goldwater Conservative all my life. I just can't stand watching the Republicans become indistinguishable from the Democrats...

In case you don't recognize the position I'm taking, I'm in line with the man Barry Goldwater, Jr. called "the only Goldwater Republican in this race:" Dr. Ron Paul.

Actually, the Constitution
does not recognize everyone in the world as an American citizen.

Terrorists are not covered by the Geneva conventions because they are not in uniform and are not sponsored by a recognized polity.

The Clinton way of looking at terrorism as something the trial lawyers can handle produced no worthwhile convictions of anyone. THAT'S WHY THEY CAME BACK AND FLEW PLANES INTO THE TWIN TOWERS.

Israel intentionally targets terror leaders because unlike the liberal bloggers who slum around on TH, Israelis' lives are constantly at stake by the day and hour.

American liberals who live in the lap of luxury and never fear for anything the write or do have no relation to the reality of the rest of the world that lives with manical dictators, mindless bombings, and no rule of law.

They should emigrate to Cuba for a decade or so and then return to lecture us all on Constitutional rights. They'd never survive real oppression because they have no guts in the face of real terror.

Right
Unless McCain changes his position on amnesty, he will not get my vote. 20 million more illegals equals 3 times that many who will come. Thus, a third world country is born. What else would matter if that becomes reality? We can stand on principle and fight the dem winner.

"Tell the zionist occupied governments of the west who support a muslim state in the cradle of Christian Serbia's civilization to shove it."

No tears for Mughniyeh "encounter"
I only pray that Nasrallah will be similarly "encountered"!

Peter J Gay
With the DEMS in control all we have done is ABET the ENEMY by Libs wanting to tell the world How,When and Where we are monitoring your money and monitoring your Phone Calls and internets.
Hell why dont the LIBS just invite the Terrorist to A WHITE HOUSE lunching and we can fill then in on how we are supposedly connecting the DOTS.

I think that since the LIBS where screaming that Bush wasnt listening to the 9/11 Commission and their findings then what gives the LIBS the same right to tell our enemy everything that we are doing to track then down.

I think that before you can call yourself an American you must first ACT LIKE ONE and protecting this Country should be the number one Priority of the POTUS and CONGRESS.

The troops have been dealt a low blow by this DEM LED CONGRESS by wanting them to RETREAT and Surrender TO THE ENEMY. Boy that sure is PATRIATIC isnt it. My son and 7 family members are in this WAR and they are totally disgusted at this CONGRESS who by the way gave the POTUS the authority to go to WAR before reading the INTEL REPORT and then wanting them to LOSE, so why wouldnt the soldier want to kill then instead of making them Hostages? I know why, because they(TROOPS) are the REAL AMERICANS in all of this.

I think the enemyis in America already. ie

DEM LED CPNGRESS

Peter and Lilly
Peter J. Gray "As I stated above, when American citizens can be declared "enemy combatants" or "terrorists" and thereby lose their Constitutional right of habeas corpus, we are looking not at appropriate government acts of national defense, but at the overthrow of the rule of law!"

History Fact: FDR did it in WWII to an AMERICAN citizen. He was caught, tried by a Mil Trib and executed by firing squad. All upheld by the Supreme Court.

Lilly: "The minute we suspend laws for terrorists---or anyone we don't like---we place ourselves in danger."

We are at war. The Geneva Conventions is the International Rule of War. Please read it. focus on the section dealing with people who wear no discernable marking and intentionally target civilians. Once you do you will realize you are trying to give rights to people who have surrendered them by their actions. Also, neither you nor the Supreme Court can re-negotiate that treaty as neither of you have the constitutional authority to do so.

Uncle B
What would be nice, would be living in a country ruled by our Constitution, where the government NEVER presumes the right to strip their own citizens of that Constitution's protection.

Americans!
Do none of you have an inkling of these words coming back to haunt you??

Greenberg is implying that if we "intend to win" a war, that makes it acceptable to declare U.S. CITIZENS to be "enemy combatants" BEFORE any trial or charges, and thus susceptible to treatment as such. It seems that not only this Administration, but many people posting comments here, agree with this line of reasoning.

Putting aside the question of foreign terrorists for the time being, the atrocity here is that AMERICAN CITIZENS can be lumped in the same category and stripped of their Constitutional rights!!

What guarantees your rights in this environment?

How are you going to want to be treated when they suspect YOU of terrorism? "Why bother taking him prisoner?" they'll say; "just shoot him."

Imagine.....
Imagine what our country would be like now if we had brought every Japanese and/or German Soldier captured in WWII to the US to be tried in our courts. At least they wore uniforms and it could be determined they were an enemy combatant. The courts would still be backlogged.
Mr Gay if you are so concerned about these folks why not step up and take into your home as many of them as you can and pay for their legal fees. and then burial costs when we execute them.

Peter J Gay
It must be great to live in a perfectly sanitized world.

The ANSWER!!!
The sure fire way to fix this point of contention is to interrogate anyone captured and then just shoot 'em. Short of this, why not distribute any captured enemy combatants amongst our congress peoples homes. Place them under direct supervision of the congress turds. Oh yea send a few over to lillys house. I'm sure they would have gone and gotten the book for her that she quoted from by memory. They'd escape???
MO! These are potentially fine upstanding citizens. They only on the field of battle trying to kill our brothers and sisters in arms. I am sure our soldiers would be well treated................NOT

Why Bother Taking Them Prisoner?
Just kill them.

Chuck and WRH Bill
I agree and at the survival school we get it.

WRH Bill, yes we do need to determine if people are terrorist, however I oppose bringing them to this country where certain "rights" of due process will be confired upon them. Such as methods of gathering information will have to be disclosed and even parts of and personnel involved in operation(s). All this then become matters of public record which anyone can access. No good to say the least.

I don't think and there is no evidence to show "if you treat them nice, they will treat us nice". We do treat them very well, we don't cut off heads, they can't say the same, they target the innocent. We give them medical and dental treatment they have never gotten, showers once a day, three meals a day, Quran's and Muslim chaplains and we repsect their prayer times. All this barbaric treatment at the hands of us brutal Americans (specifically the troops, I say that because the entire country is not at war).

Touch 'em all, Paul
Whether or not you agree with his content – and lately, he has had a rough time making contact with good sense – I hope you can admit that Paul Greenberg is the best pure writer TH has to offer. His style is like Darryl Strawberry’s swing – it looks magnificent even when he’s striking out.

That said, I’m happy to note that Mr. Greenberg drove this topic into the upper deck. Well stated, sir!

PS - I hope it's not too obvious that I have the fever for the new season.

Government by Laws
sedonaman, This nation was designed to be governed not by men, but by laws. The state of being at war does not mitigate that fact: that everything this government rightly engages in is "a law enforcement issue."

As I stated above, when American citizens can be declared "enemy combatants" or "terrorists" and thereby lose their Constitutional right of habeas corpus, we are looking not at appropriate government acts of national defense, but at the overthrow of the rule of law!

This government has no right to declare war on her own citizens. Any American suspected of treason should be first tried, then punished or executed upon conviction by a jury of his peers, and not a minute earlier!

Not a legal issue
Good job, Mr. Greenberg. As Juvenal wrote in the first century AD, "It is difficult not to write satire."

To "lilly," et al: Did we hold trials for each of the Axis soldiers in WW-II before we killed them? Of course not; that would have been absurd. And therein lies the confusion of you who think terrorists deserve a trial: you are still trying to pass this war off as a law enforcement issue. It is not. It is a W A R !

To Chuck
"I tell them that if they are DEAD they wont have to worry about their rights anymore."

That's right. I believe the American revolutionaries had a saying in response to this kind of thinking:

LIBERTY OR DEATH!!

Can I do any less than so many Americans before me, who died to preserve not only my LIFE but my FREEDOM as well?? Before yielding that freedom I would rather die.

Are *we* potential terrorists?
The other important thing that those of us on the "right wing" need to remember is: Once we establish the precedent, "Anything goes when it comes to fighting terrorism," that may well come back to bite *us*.... since many people on the left-- possibly including future President Obama or Clinton II-- consider right-wingers generally to be complicit in "terrorism". Pro-lifers are collectively guilty of aiding and abetting abortion clinic bombings. Critics of homosexuality are conspiring to commit "gay-bashing" murders. Gun owners and opponents of gun control are tied in with dangerous "militias". Etc, etc, etc. (I hope it's obvious I'm describing how left-wngers think, not my own opinion.) Are you sure you want to give a future left-wing administration advance permission to disregard the Bill of Rights in "fighting right-wing terrorism"?

The point of "rights for terroists"
A couple of points need to be considered before concluding that anyone who supports any kind of due process rights for persons suspected of terrorism, is a soft-headed moron who wants crazed Islamic fanatics to kill us all.

One point is: The question to be answerred is not, "Are terrorists nice people who deserve to be treated kindly?", but "Is this particular person, who we suspect or accuse of being a terrorist, ACTUALLY a terrorist?" The point of due process is to determine, as well as humanly possible, the truth about whether a person is actually guilty of a crime. Liberals and conservatives tend to make opposite mistakes on this. Conservatives look at someone accused of a heinous act such as terrorism or child molesting, and decry any legal rights for the accused, saying "Terrorists (child molesters, etc.) don't DESERVE any rights! They're EVIL!" But again, the question is not whether the act is evil, but whether the person committed the act. Liberals, on the other hand, often see due process as an end in itself utterly disconnected from its function of helping find the truth. For them, if legal authorities fail to jump through every possible hoop on the way to finding a suspect guilty, an injustice has been done, even if the facts clearly indicate the person IS guilty. (I realized this after reading a newspaper column by a lawyer specializing in death penalty cases, who said even in his own opinion nearly all of his clients were guilty, but nonetheless they should not be executed because they were denied their 'legal rights'.)


POLMsgt
I was in the Military for 22 yrs and I was waterboarded.

It amazes me at the People who claim to be American but dont want to defend America by any means neccessary. Im tired of people crying about loosing their Rights. I tell them that if they are DEAD they wont have to worry about their rights anymore.

They made me talk in 64 seconds. It works I know.

I tell people that if you wanted to know the SECRET behind the Colonels Chicken Receitpy all you have to do was WATERBOARD him and he would have told you.

I have yet to hear of anyone who has died from WATERBOARDING.

Definition of "Enemy Combatant"
It seems to me that it's important to ask for how long we should consider the government trustworthy to define for us who qualifies as an "enemy combatant," and thus forfeits their constitutional rights.

Under current law it is possible for UNITED STATES CITIZENS to be held indefinitely without being charged (no privelege of habeas corpus), if they are determined by none other than the government to be enemy combatants. This is borne out by the fact that American citizens have already been treated in this way after being classified as such.

Now I'm sure John Walker Lindh and Jose Padilla were acting as treasonous enemies of the United States. But these are U.S. citizens! I'm not speaking in their defense per se, but in defense of the rest of us who cherish our rights under the Constitution.

As citizens, don't we have the right to have a trial by a jury of our peers to determine whether we are in fact traitors? How can the determination BEFOREHAND that we are "enemy combatants" be allowed to preclude that right??

I for one do not wish to be tried in the tribunal of public opinion, where the only evidence presented is the rationale the FBI gives the press as to why I qualify as an "enemy combatant," and thus forfeit my right of habeas corpus as an American citizen!

Remember that for every inch you give your government, they will take a mile at least; and every power you give them, 1. will cost dearly, usually in blood, to take back, and 2. will not forever be used only against your enemies, but will one day be used against you.

This Article is frustrating reading...
I know most of you reading this share my frustration, which is captured in this article, that so many reasonable folks just don't seem to acknowledge the danger posed by these bloodthirsty killers. As time has slipped by since 9-11, many seem to have gone soft on this enemy..... an enemy that wants to kill every one of us!
I'm thankful that most of the folks I come into contact with don't share the misguided ideas that some of our fellow pansies do... How bout let's win this war?!

TeeHall
Waterboarding is good stuff. There are three cases it is known to have worked and yielded actionable, information.

Best Part
Syria is notably hospitable to foreigners, at least if they support TERRORISM.

Well now dont that take the cake, sounds to me that NANCY P and DENNIS KUCHINICH must fit that
bracket and you LIBS scream that Bush is the Terrorist.

Ah, Lilly!
Quoting a person in a novel is just your style. Those words were born in the imagination of one of your cohorts who wishes to turn the sharp edge of the sword so that it beheads us. That you take those words to heart shows your utter commitment to ignorance.

I have before challenged you to read a TRUE story by a woman who survived the Hezbollah jihad in Lebanon that Mr. Greenberg cited. Read "Because They Hate," by Brigite Gabriel, St. Martin's Press. She and her family lived in a bomb shelter for SEVEN (7) YEARS while Hezbollah goons rocketed and shelled their small Christian village. If you are willing to quote fiction, surely you would not hesitate to quote actual words and deeds of real people.

Alas, I suspect you have your head in a dark and stinky place. You do not want to be confused by facts because your mind is already made up. How can you expect us to take seriously one who demonstrates such willful ignorance?

Have you started your Koran studies yet? Bought a burka?

Quit Attacking Lilly
Lilly is an insignifant. The Greenberg that wrote this piece is the one to pick on. Take this, Greenberg --- WATERBOARDING IS GOOD STUFF. We should give terrorists another chance. Put them all in Greenberg's town and let them cure for a period of time. Greenberg, aren't you from the same state that Bubba Clinton is from? Isn't that the area where he left a trail of dead people and made the grifters a lot of money? Suggestion: stick to writing about the 60s and 70s when you had more fun.

Lilly
I vote we give unlawful combatants exactly what rights they are given in the Geneva Convention: none. Combatants who hide among the citizenry and don't wear uniforms can be shot on site as spies.

Gentlemen
Lilly is a flower that blooms in the ground that the blood of patriots has watered. Look to good, brave men, (and women) to do the nasty jobs so that women, children and pacifists can live their secure lives and morally posture.

Hi, Lil
When someone takes the law in hand and turns on society in order to stab it to ribbons with the law itself, then you turn to common sense and disarm the b@$t@rd.

Hope you are well. I know you had some health problems.

Accommodation of criminals is not new
We've been doing it for years now. interrupted only by occassional brief hiatuses in "specialized treatment", pedophiles enjoy improving their skills throughout their miserable and protected lives. In fact, all manners of criminal have learned to hide behind the victim banner, which is why heinous crimes that used to happen from time to time are now commonplace. But don't worry- we're all safer if they have their "rights".

Yesterday I got a call from a former students mother. This lady was concerned because the 12 year old boy nextdoor was beaten to a pulp by his mom's boyfriend- AGAIN- but this time the side of his face is so swollen that his eye looks displaced. How many times has this man been reported? Four during the past five years. Of course, I had to direct her to report yet again- but this man will walk away unscathed, as usual.

But we're all safer knowing that perps are protected. Liberal idiots.

Lilly
Actions always speak louder than words. Laws mean nothing if there are no men to uphold them.
To I'mmad Muggandkillyouifican, good bye and by the way the Devil does not serve ice water.
All those terrorist in GITMO deserve nothing more than a bayonet in the gut and a slow death.
After all there is no need to waste electricity,
rope or bullets on them.

The winners write the history books...
...which is why FDR is a hero and Hitler is a bum.If we lose the war on terror,Bin Laden will write the history books,because "history is a myth,agreed upon"(Bonoparte).We should just worry about winning and let the academics twist it anyway they like.

Quoting traitors in support of terrorism
Hardly your finest hour Lilly. Thomas More was a traitor who refused to give the oath of alleigance. Offered the chance to leave England and go in to exile he instead chose to stay and die for his crime. To compund your error by quoting the words a later day socialist put into the mouth of a heinous traitor.

Can't you just celebrate that one more evil Muslim terrorist is dead? Are you unable to see that due process is a matter for criminal law, not applicable to enemy combatants, who we are lawfully allowed to kill? What are you scared of, that freedom and liberty may prevail over Muslim barbarism?

lilly,
once again you have reaffirmed my belief that we live in an age of absolute stupidity and moral absurdity.


Lilly's "Illiterati."
Maybe Sir Thomas More said those words, maybe not. The words are from a play written by Robert Bolt, an agnostic and socialist. And the anomaly of that is Bolt writing the words said by a religious fundamentalist to his king and to every other character in the "story."

Head choppers
Go to Lilly's house, your rights will be observed.

Why Terrorists Should Have Rights
I could walk into the other room, get the book, and quote this directly, but it's late so I am just going to tell about it. In "A Man For All Seasons" there is a scene between Sir Thomas More and his son-in-law Roper in which Roper says he would do anything to stop evil, as he puts it, "to catch the devil". He says "I would cut down every law in England to catch the devil!". And More replies, "England is forested thick with laws---man's laws, not God's laws---and if you mowed them all down and the devil turned on you, where would you hide, all the laws being flat? I tell you that such a wind would blow in that open country that no man would be able to stand upright"---I may have remembered the words a bit wrong but that's about what's said. I don't know of a better statement to say why we need laws---for all.

The minute we suspend laws for terrorists---or anyone we don't like---we place ourselves in danger.
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