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Saturday, January 19, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Lee and the Lingering South
by Paul Greenberg
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"What is the South?" they always ask. It's a question never answered, not completely, but invariably asked. Usually by some Northerner with a taste for literature. Or by sociology students in search of a thesis. Or by a college roommate at Harvard. (See Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom.") I was first asked the question by a fellow graduate student at Columbia. ("What's it like, growing up in the South?") He asked it in the same tone one might inquire, "What was it like, living on Mars?" Southerners remain a fascination to others - almost as great a fascination as we are to ourselves.

These days, as we lose our distinctiveness, the question of Southern identity seems to be raised most by Southerners, who return to it like the tongue to an uneven tooth. As if we wanted assurance that we still exist. We know there's no sure answer to the question; we just delight in asking it - for the comfort and fellowship and pure pleasure of thinking about the South.

On this Lee's Birthday, the South seems only a lingering shadow of the great civilization-and-barbarism she once was, but that ended when? April 9, 1865, at Appomattox Courthouse? With the last great Southern novel, and which was it? When cotton was dethroned? When industry overtook agriculture, when the city took over from the country? Did the South end with the coming of air conditioning or of the two-party system? Or when the race issue ceased to be The Issue, and became just another Northern-style ethnic competition and/or collaboration?

The answer to that question always seems to come down to this: The South ended with the previous generation - which fits in well with the common perception that each generation becomes a little less Southern, a little more Americanized. It's like Zeno's Paradox about the hare who always halves the distance between himself and the tortoise, yet never catches up: Southernness is always fading yet never disappears. Our children will doubtless say it ended with us even as it continues in them.

Just as there are many Souths, so there are many Southernesses. And entirely too many simulacra. The Br'er Rabbit stories of Joel Chandler Harris become the cartoon characters of Walt Disney. The culture that was, or perhaps never was except in retrospect, leaves behind its faux ruins and living fossils. Phony artifacts litter the landscape: minstrel shows, accents you could lay on with a trowel, and all the other Gone-With-the-Wind routines for the tourist trade. A picturesque past replaces any usable one.

For a conquered people, there's always the satisfaction of hating. And so the Confederate battle flag may be waved at a racist rally. Or it may be tacked on or removed from a state flag for separate but equally confused reasons. Is there any symbol of the South - from "Dixie" to the Southern belle - that has not been commercialized, burlesqued, exploited, debunked, by turns celebrated and frowned on?

Yes. There is one who has withstood it all: Robert E. Lee. Not that there aren't always those who would use him for their own purposes, whether high or low. One is not sure who's worse: the professional Southerners who hide behind Lee or the professional debunkers who are always trying to expose him. In both cases, it is the use of Lee for some mundane polemical purpose that is the sin. Happily, there is always something unconvincing in such efforts. They inevitably fall flat, like a contrived moral attached to a fable so whole and complete that to comment on it seems superfluous, even sacrilegious.

Lee is present still, but not in the way other historical figures are. The mention of his name inevitably elevates, shaming his critics, calming his admirers, reminding all of what is truly important. Not victory or defeat but honor.

It's not clear just when the general left history and entered myth, but it is clear that he represents something more than the sum total of his battles or even his life. In the end, it is not what Lee did or did not do that explains his appeal. It is what he was, and still is. At least to some of us, the few of us left. You know who you are. And even if we were Legion, it would still feel as if we were few. Every January 19th, a stillness comes, and vainglory departs. A certain perspective sets in.

It is not his victories that elevate Lee. It is Lee who elevates his victories, and in the end elevates his defeat. It is his acceptance of all things with honor that makes the conventional meaning of victory and defeat inapplicable in his case. He was the same Lee after Chancellorsville as he was after Appomattox.

The historians who have tried to crack the alabaster mystery that is Lee and unveil some complicated mechanism whirring deep within have succeeded only in shattering their own theories. They keep running up against the serenity of the man and the myth, and can't be sure which is which, or even if there is a difference.

Once fluency has replaced deliberation, and deconstruction supplanted simplicity, of course Lee would become a mystery. His motives seem inexplicable in this time because he explained them so simply in his own: duty, honor, country. (His country was not even the South but Virginia - a concept of loyalty beyond the mobile, modern bicoastal mind.)

Lee's was but the code of the gentleman. But who now can remember what a gentleman was? Therefore we conclude that there never really was such a thing. We assume there had to be some self-interest in Lee, and that we can find it if we just keep chipping away at the marble man. Shard by shard, we will yet explain him, until his spell lies shattered into a hundred different pieces. Instead, it is we who are shattered, revealed as incomplete, broken and, worse, unaware of it.

Modernity, which is another name for the American experience, is incapable of seeing wholeness. And it is his wholeness that explains Lee's emotion without sentimentality, his mythology without fictiveness.

Lee did not exult in victory or explain in defeat. At Chancellorsville, arguably the most brilliant victory ever achieved by an American commander, his thoughts seemed only of the wounded Jackson. As if he understood that losing Jackson would be to lose the war, that nothing would be the same afterward. At Appomattox, he was intent on the best terms he could secure for his men. His own fate did not seem to concern him except for the ways in which it might affect others - his family, his countrymen, the next generation. From beginning to end, his circumstances changed, but he remained the same. And does yet.

If the South is more than a geographic designation, if there is still a South worthy of the name, it is because myth continues to shape her, and Southerners may still be able to imagine what it is to be whole, all of a piece.

When Flannery O'Connor was asked why Southerners seem to have a penchant for writing about freaks, she would say: Because in the South we are still able to recognize a freak when we see one. To do that, one must have some idea of what wholeness would be. In these latitudes, the idea of wholeness has a name: Lee.

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Honorable Lee?
I know little of Lee except the basics. What seems significant to me is that he left his country to fight for some other entity called the Confederacy. He left the country that educated and trained him, that gave him a place in its army, that promoted him to high office. He left his country for which he fought. Then he fought against that country. Where is there honor after doing that?
I know he believed he owed greater loyalty to his native state of Virginia, but when those to whom you are loyal are doing the wrong thing, the loyal thing is to oppose them in their wrong.

A beautiful simile.
"who return to it like the tongue to an uneven tooth."
Beautiful.
Thank-you.

Robert E. Lee man of honor?
Not! The man committed treason against the USA and deserves no place of honor in the hearts, minds, or history books of America.

What was the South?

It's important to make a distinction when speaking of the South, between Colonial Tidewater Virginia, which gave us our greatest Founding Fathers and the rest of the South.

Virginia was the product of one wave of immigration from Great Britain, as distinct as the wave of immigration of Puritans to New England or of Quakers and Catholics to the Mid-land colonies.

The deep South, beyond Virginia and colonial Georgia was populated by the last major wave of colonial immigration from Great Britain, a wave as distinct as any of the other major previous waves from Great Britain.

What was the South and what would it have become without Virginian and New England ideas of liberty? An English speaking version of a pre-Castro Cuba, an English speaking version of a Latin-American Banana Republic, the bananas replaced by cotton.

Another Colombia or Brazil, with Savannah, Georgia as an English speaking version of Cartagena, Colombia or Bahia, Brazil(Brazil, where some Southerners went to found slave owning communities after the fall of the Confederacy).

Greenberg on Lee
"Because in the South we are still able to recognize a freak when we see one. To do that, one must have some idea of what wholeness would be. In these latitudes, the idea of wholeness has a name: Lee."

As a transplanted northerner who enjoys living here as much as I appreciate the wisdom and talent of O'Conner, Percy, et. al. let me say, "in the South we are still able to recognize great writing when we see it . . . and in these lattitudes, the greatest tradition of columnist-as-artist has a name: Paul Greenberg. Great job, Sir."

The Greatest Southern Writer?

Gabriel Garcia Marquez, to read "One Hundred Years of Solitude", is to read the history of the deep South, without the intervention of the culture of Colonial Tidewater Virginia or the culture of Colonial New England, or the culture of the Quaker Pennsylvania.

Why do Southerners...

think their culture is unique or special?

Is Canada or Mexico unique?

No, what's unique about the USA is the alchemy of freedom and liberty created by the ideas of Colonial Tidewater Virginia, Colonial New England, and Colonial Quaker Pennsylvania.

The rest of the South is no more culturally or intellectually different, than most of Latin America!

Wonderful!
Thank you, Mr. Greenberg, for another beautiful piece of writing, full of nuance, insight, paradox, and grace. You sir, like the South, are a dying breed.

When the Fed
cranked up back in the day, the old boys had the idea that, if some outsider wanted some of us, they had to take on all of us. Other than that, you folks get on about your business of getting your states up and running.

As nature and man would have it, the craving for additional power and bossiness, coupled with the need for more money to build buildings, the rights of the Fed started intruding on the rights of the folks to do their state thing.

A line was drawn in the sand because those south of it were getting ticked off at the bossiness of the Fed gang, and those north of the line didn't mind what was going on. Ergo, we had a spat.

Lee was uneasy about the Fed bossiness, and he was uneasy about the contrariness about the folks back home. In the end, he decided to go back home. Choices have to be made sometime. Those of you who denounce Lee today probably agree with everything the Fed decides today, right? What? Whaddya mean no? Come on, we can't have any of that foolishness, can we?

"What is the South?"
Who cares, and I'm from the South. Robert E. Lee may have been admirable as a person, but he chose the loosing side for a hopeless, and seemingly evil cause. At the same time I think Lincoln is greatly overrated as well, but he was on the winning side. I think this column is a repeat.

Paul
Lee and Rommel were much the same only from different eras. Blind loyalty leads to destruction. A gentleman? Yes. A great general? Perhaps. A traitor? Absolutely by any definition. An officer and a gentleman. Absolutely; but sometimes history and goodness demand more.

Very well written article thank you

Comments

Lincoln had intended to heal the wounds and bring the South back into the Union. But he was killed and vengeful "Reconstruction" followed.
I have heard it said that the South will forget about the war when the North forgets about Reconstruction.

Remember that the history of a strong "central government" ( Great Britain) was still a recent memory. Many make the mistake of viewing history through the lens of now instead of then. How would you have felt to be a civilian of 10 in Atlanta when Sherman came through? Some food for thought.

Mr. Greenberg
Dear Mr. Greenberg,

This is the first time I have read your writing, and it is certainly fine, poetic, yet strong, lovely to read. Your topic, Lee as the great hero of the South, you handle with great dignity, where the man, from where I come (Boston) is considered quite disinctively anti-hero. I understand now how he is so very important to Southerners, how he can be kept in such high regard: the South does need a Hero, and Lee is all they've got to celebrate with such high fashion. The South keeps itself to itself. It wants to be The South, still. As Confederaete flags still fly, we from Up North refuse to understand how They can want to be associated with Slavery and Discrimination.

I will be quite frank: down the street from me lives the regional head of the Ku Klux Klan. We were here first, and not to pass on discrimination, myself, but we actually wish he didn't move into the neighborhood, and there are lots of others in our neighborhood that feel the same. Naturally, he flies the Confederate flag on his motorcycle, offending us all most greatly. To be sure, I think I can speak for most of my neighbors when I say he would fit much better in The South.

Well, I live in Florida, now and have spent many summer vacaitons in Tennessee and North Carolina, in fact we just returned from a Christmas vacation in Gatlinberg, and you don't see many signs of discrimination nowadays, not openly, anyway. But travel the little roads, behind the highways, and youi will find the small hamlets of old, corrupting trailers where the regular people live, children in bear feet, old corrupted cars piled in the driveways. They're there, these hamlets, dotted all over the back roads where tourists can't see them, well most of them. And you're sure to see a Confederate flag or two or three. It's a South they keep secret.

Brilliant . . .
I read my first book on Lee one month ago, so this is timely for me. This columnist is an artist. Regards,

Ph.D, J.D.

jeanne-marie,
have you driven around many of the neighborhoods from whence you cometh (Boston) and seen how you keep the blacks where you want them. Almost a southern kind of thing, huh?

Jeanne Marie?
"As Confederaete flags still fly, we from Up North refuse to understand how They can want to be associated with Slavery and Discrimination."

It is as ignorant to tar the confederate flag with slavery and discrimination as it is to stereotype all African Americans as drug dealing, rapping, thugs and gangsters, when you think about it . . . isn't it Jeanne Marie?

I don't even try to answer such foolishness anymmore, at least most of the time. Just plain dumb. But you've got your right to speak, a right you would clearly deny to many of your fellow citizens. I see something tawdry in that, though I could care less about the Battle Flag except in the abstract terms of whether people have a right to fly it and for its little place in history. These Civil War enactors seem a bit odd, but as I get older I guess it could be interesting to watch a recreation of some major battle.

So make no mistake about it, Jeanne Marie, if anybody is the bigot -- and ignorant -- in this picture it is you, right along with that KKK adherent in your neighborhood. The two of you go together like peas in a pod.

And yes, I know I made a politically incorrect reference drawn from past southern literature, i.e, peas in a pod, but to my knowledge this site still allows freedom of thought in the search for truth.

Stars and stripes forever --




money
by all means, save your confederate money ,
the south is going to rise again .

Chopper John
Just typing by, wishing you a good morning...hope your weekend is a helluvalot warmer where you are!

The good old days---before anaesthesia
Ahhh, reminiscing about the good ol' days in the "deep south" and another tribute to a military man whose claim to fame is leading another failed army to slaughter.

I can just hear the sweet sounds of bones cracking under the impact of giant bullets, and cries as they hack the limbs off of another brave man who gave everything he had.

I have lived in New Orleans over 50 years--about as south as you can get---and not once has anyone ever asked me "what is the south?" Your answer to an imaginary question that never happens is as valid as your description of the history that never happened either.

And I say this as I camp under the statue of General Robert E. Lee at "Lee Circle" in New Orleans on Mardi Gras Day. We'uns in the south admire the courage of brave men and women, but we resist the temptation to rewrite history. Ya'll have mercy on us ig'nernt southerners for being so simple.

The South
As someone who grew up in Alabama an hour's drive from the Florida and Georgia borders, I can honestly say that I still consider myself Sourhern. If asked to fully explain why, I'm not sure I could tell you, but as the song says, I wish I was in the land of Dixie!

My biggest surprise after moving to a northern state, where I still reside, was that I saw much more open hostility to those of other races than I ever saw at home. That's still true. And I still resent the fact that people from other parts of the country see fit to denigrate the South and its people. As for Augustus McRae, I don't know what his problem is but I think he needs to move to Latin America.

Ph.D., J.D.
"It is as ignorant to tar the confederate flag with slavery and discrimination as it is to stereotype all African Americans as drug dealing, rapping, thugs and gangsters, when you think about it . . . isn't it Jeanne Marie? "

No actually it isn't. The confederate flag stands as much for injustice and salvery as the nazi flag stands for injustice and slavery that is why you so often see them both displayed by neo nazis etc at anti immigration rallies

Lilycat
My brother-in law and his family live in that area, in Andalusia, and the people there are great.

Sgt Relic
"Lee was indeed a true man of honor. Sadly, it has been so long since the end of the republic, few are able to understand why Lee felt his first responsiblity was to Virginia."

After West Point etc was Lee's oath as an officer to Virginia or to the United States and its Constitution? I honestly have no idea what oath a West Point graduate took at that time. If it was to the "Unted States" then he violated his oath and had no honor. That said I really do not know the commissioning oath taken by an officer of that era.

"The spirit of the South still survives."

The rest of this line is: "and lives in lies"

"Only if the day arrives, when one generation fails to pass the concept of honor to the next, will the spirit of the South be dead. "

Oh honor meant institutionalising the denial civil rights to almost half the population and allowing for racil prejudice to be "allowed" in the rest of the nation?


Hal
"After West Point etc was Lee's oath as an officer to Virginia or to the United States and its Constitution? I honestly have no idea what oath a West Point graduate took at that time. If it was to the "Unted States" then he violated his oath and had no honor. "

I hate to disagree with you but I think Lee showed a bigger act of showing principal by not betraying his home and people. He refused to turn his abilities against his own people, even though he clearly saw the evil of slavery.

Taft
"I hate to disagree with you but I think Lee showed a bigger act of showing principal by not betraying his home and people. He refused to turn his abilities against his own people, even though he clearly saw the evil of slavery "

It all depends on who his "people" were. If his oath was to the united states those were his people

some Southern contrasts
The South has more prize winning literary authors than any other part of the nation.

The South has more Medal of Honor Winners.

Lee's sons served in the front line of battle.
Lincoln's son hid at Harvard (as many still do...)and when he finally served,he was given a safe job nowhere near a battle front. Lincoln conscripted others to fight and die, but exempted his own family.

Lee is the only West Point cadet in history to go all four hears without a single demerit.

On a personal level, Lee treated blacks with more dignity than Lincoln did. (Occasion of the Communion service as example)

The vast majority of Southerners never own slaves as they were EXTREMELY expensive, but fought to protect their homeland from Northern Industrial domination and eventually rape and the torch (Sherman). Wealthy free blacks owned slaves and participated in the Confederate army. Tubman's husband disagreed with her underground rail road activity and divorced her. Also she took many blacks north at gun point who didn't wish to go, afraid that they would turn her in.

Harriet Beecher Stowe never wrote about the atrocities of child labor in the nearby New England textile mills, but concerned herself with the South which she never knew first hand.

The South IS unique, but one has to go outside the large cities to appreciate its unique character. Atlanta never recovered from Reconstruction, as anyone like me who lives here knows. As the last several elections show, we are still two countries, not the Red and Blue states as the media claims, but culturally still Blue and Gray.

Myth?
If someone would enlighten the discussion?

It has been said that our forefathers were
traitors, after all; Principled, honest men?
I should think so.

Is Castro the Butcher of El Cerros, or a freedomfighter?

If "Point of View" is the foundation of the argument, is there a conclusion, Ever?

Who remembers the first West Point Grad Lincoln wanted to lead the Union Army? Ten seconds.

Hal
His people, in a general abstract way was the US, but his children and neighbors were his first priority.

For Lilycat @ 09:45
Having lived in The South (Atlanta, Memphis, Dallas) and Western Canada, I concur. Originally from southern India, I experienced much more overt racism in Canada than in The South--the country which makes more issue of "multiculturalism" is actually the one with worse cultural relations (whether East-West, or with outsiders).

Indeed, I can remember a question raised on a Canada-to-US immigration forum about "anti-immigrant attitudes"--and I answered the poster that I had actually seen less of these in Atlanta than in Toronto (which didn't sit well with him as a Pigtowner).

To answer also The North's denigration of The South, it should be recognised that the following leaders (responsible for US victory in WW2) were all Southern:
(1) Douglas McArthur -- from Little Rock, AR
(2) Chester Nimitz -- Fredericksburg, TX
(3) Dwight Eisenhower -- Dennison, TX

In other words, those who denigrate The South actually should recognise that they owe their arses to these Southerners!

Lincoln was certainly a racist
There is no question that Lincoln displayed more personal animus towards blacks than did Lee. Look at the series of racist remarks in the Douglas debates. The man was a bigot of the highest order. Thank God the North won the war, but don't think Lincoln wanted equality. That was earned mostly by blacks themselves. And the hundreds of thousands Northern battlefield casualties.

And by the way, about the reparations nonsense? How about 600,000 dead Civil War soldiers as retribution AND reparations? Anybody who falls for that just cannot be thinking, or has sold himself or herself into intellectual or political prostitution.

knight_of_baawa
Actually, the South attacked Harper's Ferry and started the hostilities. And Lincoln did care a great deal about slavery.

History- The veneer "of reality"
Our family detested Lincoln for a hundred years
after the Civil War. Most people who write and speak regarding "History" believe in their Hearts that they own the Truth, and their opponent is ill-informed, or stupid.

History is seldom about the Truth. The Record of
a people is kept by those who have a safe place to write it.

Lincoln was a hypocrite, an opportunist, and fell miles short of Sandburg's orgasmic praise.
It is telling, the level of outrage incurred by one who disagrees with accepted myth.

It is impossible to speak objectively with those
who worship at the altar of a man.

On Lincoln
"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I
can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never
understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to
act officially upon this judgment and feeling."
Abraham Lincoln
Source: April 4, 1864 - Letter to Albert Hodges

But yet, I know, some of the ideas held by Lincoln on Blacks and Whites would get him in very hot water in today's politics.

Sumter?
The South attacked Harper's Ferry and started
the War? Taft, did you say that or Baawaa?

Taft
"His people, in a general abstract way was the US, but his children and neighbors were his first priority."

I maintain that if his oath was to the united states then he violated his oath. There are plenty of explanations and justifications but there was no way to maintain honor.

airfoil
LOL, correction taken.

Taft, 11:08
Read, then re-read your quote of Lincoln.
Count the number of times it takes you to understand, Out of the Man's own Mouth,
his level of hypocrisy and cowardice.

svpallava/Lilycat
"In other words, those who denigrate The South actually should recognise that they owe their arses to these Southerners! "

Ahh see that is the beauty of this nation everyone owes their butts to everyone. Without the same industrial and education base that crushed the South in the civil war we would all be speaking German or Russian.

Until the South acknowledges the mistakes and horrors of its past instead of trying to evade them, the South will probably remain disfunctional in many ways.

informed voter
perhaps you should try to be a little more informed.
"at least 63 Union regiments lost as much as 50 per cent in single battles"
overall, during the War of Northern Aggression, the Union forces suffered more deaths and wounded than the Southern forces, and the greater number of Southern deaths and wounded can be attributed to the latter years of this tragedy when the Southern forces were well weakened both numerically and in operating supplies.
Union General Grant (later a US President) was known as "Bloody Grant" because of his lack of concern for incurred casualties to the Union ranks under his command (even before being handed command in the East by Lincoln, who went to his maker with more blood on his hands than any other US President, to date).
Although you are correct that Gen Lee and his Army of Northern Virginia were defeated; it was not a defeat of honor or bravery, and did not endure the SLAUGHTER Lincoln and his generals inflicted upon their own forces.
The North took poor Irish immigrants right of their incoming ships into Union uniforms and it is estimated that 68% of them perished in the Union ranks; dying in a place they had never known as "home"; the vast majority of the Southern IRISH-AMERICANS who perished in this war were from generationally established families, residentially pre-dating the USA, as a nation.

Hal
you must spill alot of drinks at parties

airfoil
A thing that people tend to do with historical figures, like Lincoln, is take them out of their time and setting, and plop them down in 20th century modes of thought. For Lincoln, to take the steps he did, for that age, was something. Now, I'll shut up about this subject because this thread is about Lee and ?.

History lesson
I read so many comments here that judge people like lee with their own value system. That's so shortsighted. This was a different country then and the people's attitudes were different as well. The Unites States was a collection of states, the country we know did'nt exist. The railroads were only about 30 year old, most men were born in a world with no mass transport, electricity, plumbing... the list goes on. Most were born, lived and died within 10 miles of their birthplace. Lee's loyalty to Virginia was as natural to men of his time as breathing. Note that all regiments in the armies of both sides were STATE regiments, such as " 10th Michigan" or "17th Mississippi" The one act of Lee that probably truly saved the nation, ironically was his surender. He was urged by subordinates to disperse the army near appomatox, to create a guerilla army to bedevil the unionists for years. His reply, in part was, "This would cause misery to all parts of the south for years. Others may do as they wish, but i will go see General Grant, and accept the consequences of my actions" That is in a nutshell, the essence of Death before Dishonor.

Donahue talking about
honor vs dishonor is as appropriate as my wife discussing the vagaries of the sacrifice bunt vs the hail mary.

YLG, good morning, hope you are feeling better. It's raining continuously here, wind 10, temp 40.

Boutte
Boutte:

Words fail me. That's beyond parody.

Chopper John:
You neglected to state Which way the wind was blowing!

TimBob
"...Lee's loyalty to Virginia was as natural to men of his time as breathing. Note that all regiments in the armies of both sides were STATE regiments, such as " 10th Michigan" or "17th Mississippi" "

Tsk, tsk the simple, very simple question is to what entity did Robert pledge his alligence? Oath are serious and were even more so then. All I ask is did he pledge alligence to VA or to the united states? In terms of honor the difference is huge

"The one act of Lee that probably truly saved the nation, ironically was his surender. He was urged by subordinates to disperse the army near appomatox, to create a guerilla army to bedevil the unionists for years."

He may have saved the South as an entity by doing that but after that many years of war I suspect there would have been no quarter given by the North.

"His reply, in part was, "This would cause misery to all parts of the south for years. Others may do as they wish, but i will go see General Grant, and accept the consequences of my actions" That is in a nutshell, the essence of Death before Dishonor. "

That was actually accepting the consequences of his dishonor

Chopper John
Yes, I'm better now. Still sneezing in the mornings when I get up, but fine during the rest of the day.

The sun finally broke through, and now it is a warm 42*, instead of the ICE warning on the thermostat earlier.

Nice zinger on your 11:38 AM post, btw!

On Lee
Lee will always be perceived as at least two different men to many. To some he will be a man of conscience who felt he had to take up arms against the Union to avoid fighting his native Virginia. To others he is perceived as a traitor or turncoat because of this decision. It is said he hated slavery and treated blacks well. He was said to be a very devout Christian constantly prayed and read his Bible and had little patience with fools. I personally have always been torn in my feelings about Lee. It appears to be this way with many great men of history. Interesting how fervent and heated this debate still is almost 140 years after his death.

TimBob,
oops, outta the Nawth. Nasty, nasty, and colder'n a witch's hoo haw in a brass gee gaw.

charlie
"at least 63 Union regiments lost as much as 50 per cent in single battles"
overall, during the War of Northern Aggression, the Union forces suffered more deaths and wounded than the Southern forces, and the greater number of Southern deaths and wounded can be attributed to the latter years of this tragedy when the Southern forces were well weakened both numerically and in operating supplies."

But they kept fighting and coming back. By the time of Gettysburg the Union was the better fighting force. Unlimited manpower and factory production defeated the South


"Union General Grant (later a US President) was known as "Bloody Grant" because of his lack of concern for incurred casualties to the Union ranks under his command (even before being handed command in the East by Lincoln, who went to his maker with more blood on his hands than any other US President, to date)."

Patton was know by his troops as blood and guts - his guts our blood. He did the job the only way he knew and far far better than his opposition.

"Although you are correct that Gen Lee and his Army of Northern Virginia were defeated; it was not a defeat of honor or bravery, and did not endure the SLAUGHTER Lincoln and his generals inflicted upon their own forces."

Oh that is my point there was ZERO honor in the confederate cause. It institionalised elite leadership and slavery. What percentage of Southern manpower was lost during their rebellion? ande the North?


Sgt Relic thank you
writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 11:55 AM
Hal
This is the oath used at the time of Lee's graduation:

"I, A. B., do solemnly swear, or affirm, (as the case may be,) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the United States of America; and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against their enemies or opposers whomsoever; and that I will observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles of war."

"No mention of the Constitution. Further, it is important to remember that Officers, unlike enlisted members, may resign their commissions. This Lee did, after turning down command of the union forces, but before accepting command of Virginia forces."

That I believe is his saving grace and allows him to maintain his honor. I really do compare him with Rommel - honorable men trapped in dishonorable positions. No easy or totally correct answers

"In 1861 the concept of citizenship was viewed differently than we see it today. "

I agree and understand. Heck where I live NOW you ask half the people their nationality and you get their ethnic background. Thank you.

Let's get some historical facts straight
Many of you have stated that Gen. Lee was nothing more than a traitor to his country--the United States. That is absolutely false if you consider what the definition of "country" was in the early 19th Century. Prior to the war, constitutional scholars and historians believed that the union of independent and sovereign States called the United States was entirely voluntary. The United States was not considered a nation--it was considered a political union like the European Union is today. Americans were citizens of their respective independent States, not citizens of the United States. Soldiers such as Lee who served in the Army of the United States served the same way present-day American soldiers serve in United Nations operations.

In Thomas Jefferson’s First Inaugural Address (1801), he declared, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Jefferson was defending the rights of free speech and of secession.

Prior to his obvious change of heart by 1860, Illinois Congressman Abraham Lincoln stated in a speech before Congress on January 12, 1848, “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right—a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.” This is quite a change from his actions in 1860, even though the Constitution remained the same.

Obviously, if secession was considered constitutional, Gen. Lee could not be considered a traitor.

Southern Gentility
Lincoln co-opted the patrician anti-slave movement from New England for use as a rally cry. He didn’t give a wit about the immorality of slavery. Much like Roosevelt using Pearl Harbor to ignite tempers, he needed Harper’s Ferry.

Federalism ended at Appomattox, not the preference for Southern gentility.

With Lee in command, Confederate Armies fought for states rights. As Mr. Greenberg so eloquently phrased it above, the original concept of State autonomy attacked Fort Sumter.

It was indeed an age from which the honorable deserves veneration, Lee for his devotion to country (Virginia) and Lincoln for his adherence to his oath of office. It was gravely unfortunate for everyone then and uncomfortable for everyone now that in order to preserve the union every manner of political despotism was employed.

Dredging up the bigoted myth that if you cruise the Dixie back roads you’ll find Southerners pining for a resurrected Confederacy is like saying if you walk around Santa Ana you’ll find Mexican nationals who think California still belongs to them. Yea, so what?! That and $2.50 will get you a burrito.

Hal
Hal:

I know there is no changing your opinion, but i will posit this: Once Lee resigned his commission, and it was accepted by the Union Authorities, his Oath was satisfied and completed. Are you saying that he should be held to an oath he was in effect, released from? Would you care to be held to such a standard? you can say yes here with no consequence other than your conscience, but I guess not many of us would be comfortable being held to such a high standard. General Grant was the first Union general who had the guts to "face the arithmetic" of the horrific casualtys it took to defeat the CSA. But on the other hand, if you look at situations such as Cold Harbor; he left his wounded on the field for three days after the battle because to ask Lee for a truce to send out the ambulances he felt would be an admission of defeat. He had been defeated but pride and politics prevented him from admitting it and he left thousands to die in the June sun. I say this just to comment that there were few plaster saints in the war, Lee included, but such harsh judgement in my opinion is unwarranted. Many Southerners came to the conclusion in laters years that the war was perhaps the worst cause that brave men had every fought for. I hope we never have to do it again.

Dave
"Let's get some historical facts straight "

"Many of you have stated that Gen. Lee was nothing more than a traitor to his country--the United States."

He was definately a rebel

"That is absolutely false if you consider what the definition of "country" was in the early 19th Century. Prior to the war, constitutional scholars and historians believed that the union of independent and sovereign States called the United States was entirely voluntary."

WOW every??? That is a first in academic history isn't it? Was this not a slave/free state academic discussion?

"The United States was not considered a nation--it was considered a political union like the European Union is today."

Lee's oath as an officer was to the UNITED STATES not to Virginia. The US was a NATION read the papers of the day

"Americans were citizens of their respective independent States, not citizens of the United States. Soldiers such as Lee who served in the Army of the United States served the same way present-day American soldiers serve in United Nations operations. "

Not true. Lee commanded a federal army.

" Jefferson was defending the rights of free speech and of secession. "

Oh no of free speech nothing more. Remember the Whiskey rebellion when PA thought it might want to part company?

"Prior to his obvious change of heart by 1860, Illinois Congressman Abraham Lincoln stated in a speech before Congress on January 12, 1848, “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."

"... and having the power..."

The Slave South did not have the power as the war proved

"Obviously, if secession was considered constitutional, Gen. Lee could not be considered a traitor."

Is a rebal a traitor?


TimBob
"I know there is no changing your opinion, but i will posit this: Once Lee resigned his commission, and it was accepted by the Union Authorities, his Oath was satisfied and completed. Are you saying that he should be held to an oath he was in effect, released from?"

Not at all and that satisifed his honor but that said the fact remains that he then became a rebel but that can indeed be honorable but he knew it was not. That is very similar to the situation Rommel found himself in

"...I say this just to comment that there were few plaster saints in the war, Lee included, but such harsh judgement in my opinion is unwarranted. "

I agree and that is why I took exception to the casualities of the North... Mission first is a terrible but necessary commitment of a general or leader. Like Churchill letting Coventry be bombed..

"Many Southerners came to the conclusion in laters years that the war was perhaps the worst cause that brave men had every fought for. I hope we never have to do it again "

Sadly there are now even worse. It won't happen again without foreign support.



Folks
Must run will and return later
Be well

Lee was a great man
It is very difficult to judge Lee or even the civil war through the lens of the 21st Century. Certainly, the south's enbrace of slavery was on the wrong side of history. But the North was knee deep in the slave trade as well. The Jim Crow south was a black mark on the region. But here again it is wrong to suggest that all bigots live or are from south of the Mason Dixon Line. Mid-western Indiana figures prominently in the history of the KKK.

As to Lee. At the time people would often speak of these United States, rather than the United States. Even the very name of our country reminds us of the importance of states in our hisory with you believe in the importance of state's rights or not.

Had Lee remind loyal to the Union he would have certainly commanded the Union Army and unlike many of the incompetent and arrogant Union Generals he would have brought the Union the victory that was inevitable from the start give the industrial might and larger population of the North.

Great men (and women) are great men no matter which country they live in or who wins or loses the battle.



Greg the Californian
"Federalism ended at Appomattox, not the preference for Southern gentility."

Really then why all these state taxes etc?

"With Lee in command, Confederate Armies fought for states rights. As Mr. Greenberg so eloquently phrased it above, the original concept of State autonomy attacked Fort Sumter."

Lee fought for VA in a war he knew was wrong. Don't make excuses. It was yet another culture war. A slave society or a rough and tumble free society. The good guys won

"...It was gravely unfortunate for everyone then and uncomfortable for everyone now that in order to preserve the union every manner of political despotism was employed."

You forgot to add to oppose the Union also.

"Dredging up the bigoted myth that if you cruise the Dixie back roads you’ll find Southerners pining for a resurrected Confederacy..."

Not a myth just leave CA and visit the South. It is still there for all to see


Too often
Too often we look at the past with the lens of the present.

What do modern day people think of the Union's allowance for buying one's way out of transcription.

Or Sherman's march to the sea.

Different time,

Look at WWI and WWII. Many people criticize those wars with today's views , not with an understanding of history.

What is the South?
It's a state of mind...

To quote a bumper sticker seen in these parts from time to time "I wasn't born in the South, but I got here just as fast as I could."

Good points made!
There are many great points made for both sides of this issue. One of the most important for us to remember is that we cannot judge people from the nineteenth century by present-day standards.

As for Lincoln and his racism, Frederick Douglass addressed that himself. He basically said that from the African-American perspective, Lincoln seemed slow and uncaring; however, for a politician of the time, he was swift and radical in ridding the nation of slavery. Many forget that Lincoln was not a saint, but he was a politician--a masterful one at that.

We Northerners sometimes judge Lee harshly, and that is unfortunate. His decision was not made in haste, nor was it made lightly. I believe the war broke his heart; he died only five years after it was over.

As for those who believe he was a traitor, on what are you basing that judgment? He resigned his post, and he openly and honestly served the Confederate States of America. I understand the concept that he had received his military education courtesy of the United States of America, but when he felt the USA was committing a grave wrong by making war rather than letting the south go (and make no mistake--that is what the US did) he chose to serve his family and friends instead of a government that he felt was over-reaching.

The issue of secession has never been decided in the Supreme Court, so how can you say what he did was wrong? Jefferson Davis (president of the CSA) was never tried for treason for one basic reason: a very real fear that eventually the Supreme Court would find that secession was legal. It is a bit uncomfortable to think that the US might have engaged in a war that cost so many lives and so much damage when the south had a right to leave.

As for Mr. Greenberg, he wrote a most eloquent article about a complex man. While I am Yankee through and through, I enjoy reading about and learning about men like Lee.

Why "Firefly" had to be taken off
the air...

First, the ONLY reason the Union won the war was because of logistics. Logistics has won (or lost) more wars than any other cause. The Confederacy was too agrarian. Had the South had the industrial might of the North, the war would have been over quickly with a Confederate victory.

The Confederacy was better generaled, and had superior troops. But the best troops in the world can't win without supplies.

In the science fiction TV show "Firefly", it is the far future; we've colonized hundreds of worlds and moons. A small group of colonials feels they can run their own affairs. The Alliance, the most powerful gov't organization, thinks all the worlds should be under their rule.
Malcolm Reynolds, the protagonist, is a Browncoat, in this post-civil-war era. The Browncoats lost.
As Malcom so wonderfully asserted:

" Alliance Commander: "Seems odd you'd name your ship after a battle you were on the wrong side of."

Mal: "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." "

And until my body is cold in my grave I will not be convinced it was the *wrong* side. I see what America has become, and I have to wonder what it would be like had the Confederacy won its independence. I can see the vulgar, ugly degeneracy that is the modern U.S.




Secede, Meaning Withdraw
Hal, ol-pal, my mother is buried next to her mother in West Tennessee. My grandmother went to her grave despising yankees. I could drive you to three grave sites where I have Civil War veteran great-grandfathers buried.

It seems to me you’re the one trying to call balls and strikes from a position somewhere near Bob Ucker. I imagine the air is a little thin up there?

You have been taken to task several times in this thread by posts with reports on Lee far more detailed and researched than I have time for today. I defer to them: Chopper John, Charlie, Sgt Relic Dave, TimBob and especially Ph.D., J.D. Well done mates.

As for taxes, does you argument mean if any state, county or city receives tax revenues back from the Federal Government, it’s only because they forgot to collect them in the first place? No sir, it’s because the Fed wants to dictate policy and therefore behavior. If Federalism held sway, there never would have been the 18th and 21st Amendments to the Constitution and abortion today would be limited in over half the states.

Southern states didn’t oppose the Union, they chose to secede, meaning withdraw. You may want to look that up.

I would enjoy going on, but you’re just looking for a fight and while I have the stomach, I’ll flank you now and return to battle another day.

jdw...No worries...
The South will rise again!

Greenburg is wrong...There definitely is a Southern "something" that has not been lost.

I am no Southerner but...
I definitely have felt that "something" in my travels...and have provided me some of my best life story material I have. :)

So...
If the U.S. decided to pull out of the U.N.
Would the U.N. be justified and righteous in bringing in a global army to crush us and force us back into the union?

Why not? The U.S. is a union of republics, of states, of sovereign nations, already.

I can see a time when trying to pull out of the U.N. would draw a similar reaction.

What is the South?
By all rights, it is a separate nation. The culture and customs and even (to some degree) the language are all different.

I have never heard a good reason put forward as to why the South did not have the right to secede. If the states had the right to accede to the Constitution, they certainly had an equal right to secede.

Lee, a true gentleman, forms a stark contrast with the brutish drunkard, Grant, and his cadre of moral midget generals (Sherman and Sheridan leading the list).

Hal D


Before you get down on the South, please check out south Boston, south Chicago, DC.

As I said before, it would be good if we all could live in the present ( forget the war and reconstruction.

I do know something about the south...
I am heading there if/when the next secession occurs...
If of course they will have this Yankee :)

I take exception, Paolo
While it is true Lee was a gentleman, that does not mean the opposite must be true of Grant. When we canonize our heroes while demonizing our foes, we commit a grave mistake.

Grant understood we were going to have to fight the war to win, or it would drag on costing ever more lives over time. While he did seem rash at times, I would think you would even agree that Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg was folly on Lee's part, and it sacrificed many fine, young men. I think Lee (if he could speak from the grave) would tell you that Grant was quite gracious at Appomattox. Grant was magnanimous in victory, just as Lee showed grace in defeat.

As for Sherman and Sheridan, they understood that the North had to destroy the South's will to fight as well as the means to continue the fight. I am not saying what they did is right or wrong, that is for historians much more learned than me to debate.

When I think about the Southern military leadership as opposed to the Northern--we were outclassed all the way. Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan were effective leaders who did what they could to end the war. If they had fought a politically-correct war, it would have dragged on longer, and ultimately more lives would have been lost (biting tongue so I do not veer off course here).

Hey Ron, I agree with you--there is something about the south. I love it, and I find the people to be quite lovely.

Good Description of Lee.
But read Senator James Webb's "Born Fighting" and you will meet a host of Southern gentlemen. They include presidents such as Andrew Jackson, Polk, Monroe, Buchanan, and Taylor. Many of them are of the Francis Marion, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston type. But all of them are gentlemen, as were most folks who settled the Southeast, from North Carolina to Texas, between 1750 and 1850.

paolo and dave
read Lincoln's First Inaugural it states quite clearly why the S. couldn't
secede as they did.

Let's get some historical facts straight:
"Many of you have stated that Gen. Lee was nothing more than a traitor to his country--the United States. That is absolutely false if you consider what the definition of "country" was in the early 19th Century. Prior to the war, constitutional scholars and historians believed that the union of independent and sovereign States called the United States was entirely voluntary. The United States was not considered a nation--it was considered a political union like the European Union is today. Americans were citizens of their respective independent States, not citizens of the United States. Soldiers such as Lee who served in the Army of the United States served the same way present-day American soldiers serve in United Nations operations. "

Ummm, no. The Articles of Confed. were for "perpetual union" when
the Constitution superseded it it was tacitly for "perpetual union" too.
All the states who wanted to secede needed to do was make an
amendment to do so.


continued
"In Thomas Jefferson’s First Inaugural Address (1801), he declared, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Jefferson was defending the rights of free speech and of secession."

See how to secede above.

"Prior to his obvious change of heart by 1860, Illinois Congressman Abraham Lincoln stated in a speech before Congress on January 12, 1848, “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right—a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.” This is quite a change from his actions in 1860, even though the Constitution remained the same."

No, it is quite clear and history will note that the rebels did not "[have]
the power." The rebellion does not really qualify as fitting the definition
of a just rebellion according to the second paragraph of the DOI.

"Obviously, if secession was considered constitutional, Gen. Lee could not be considered a traitor."

Which is why he can be considered a traitor. Again, read Lincoln's 1st
Inaugural.

I must disagree
I understand what you are saying everyonesfact, but I have to disagree with you. Neither Lincoln nor Jefferson are the final word--the Constitution is--and it is interpreted by the Supreme Court.

If anyone was a traitor, it was Jeff Davis, but he was never tried for treason. The issue of secession could have been settled once and for all by trying him, but this was not done; therefore, I have to reserve judgment on whether or not secession was/is legal.

Re "What is the South?"
"What is the South?" as asked by "some Northerner with a taste for literature". Yes, William Faulkner, Carson McCullers, Eudora Welty, Margaret Mitchell, Harper Lee, Truman Capote, all just a bunch of damn yankees.

I need to say...
It does strike at my heart to disagree with Lincoln or Jefferson. I adore them both as presidents. My first daughter's name is Martha (named in honor of Jefferson's wife who died much too young). My youngest son's name is Jacob Christian Abraham (the second middle name in honor of Lincoln).

They were two strong men, and they were great leaders--may we see their likes again.

The OTHER General Who Remained Loyal
As a North Carolinian whose ancestors are buried in the hills of western Virginia, I recognize General Lee for the difficult decision he was forced to make. But his contemporary, General George H. Thomas, faced the identical decision yet chose to remain loyal to his oath and to the United States of America. He paid dearly for that choice--hated by the South and mistrusted by the North. Yet he is behind only Grant and Sherman in the significance of his contribution to the preservation of the United States.

Articles the predecessor to the Const
"Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, . . ."

XIII

"Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State."

I have not read a better
Summation on General Lee than Greenburgs article, short one that it is, it hits the bulls eye.

With all the different arguments for or against the General, he is not changed from the man he was.
Greenburg writes:

Lee is present still, but not in the way other historical figures are. The mention of his name inevitably elevates, shaming his critics, calming his admirers, reminding all of what is truly important. Not victory or defeat but honor.
-------

That is it in a nutshell, the General was an Honorable man.
He believed in something greater than his own self.
Lost to the present day masses of people.
Honor will rise above every defamation or shame.

Lee proves that

On Robert E. Lee the traitor
The US Constitution Article III Section 3...'Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort.'

An opinion of Lee the person.
One often reads that, in war, it is the victors who get to write the history. In the case at hand, however, "Southerners" have been a prolific (perhaps dominant) source of what happened back then and why.

And some might say, therefore, that Lee has been given a pass on some things (such as a few posters here accuse him of) for which history should hold him more "accountable."

If one wants to understand Lee the person, one need go no farther toward present times than the Mexican War and Lee's behavior there on behalf of his country.


Constitution formed no perptual union
Hal and everyonesfacts, you are quibbling with the historical, verbatim quotes of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln (before his conversion). If you disagree with those quotes, that is too bad--don't "shoot the messenger!"

Mr. Facts, you have a lot of your facts downright wrong. The Articles of Confederation were rescinded--null--void--and the Constitution replaced it. The quote you provided from the AOC pertained in no way to the Constitution. The Constitution is the rules under which this Republic operates--not the AOC. Have you actually studied the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Obviously not or you would know that the Constitution gives the union only a very few, specific powers, and there certainly were no tacit accomodations from the obsolete AOC contained in it. Read Amendments IX and X in the Bill of Rights and you will find that the Constitution limits the powers of the Federal government--not the powers of the States nor the People.

If you doubt what I am telling you, then you have not studied the articles contained in the Federalist Papers which were written by the very men who wrote, discussed, amended, and voted on the Constitution. You will find throughout those articles that the United States was nothing more than a voluntary confederaton formed by the States in order to handle specific responsibilities.

u.s is to u.n. as
jdw writes:
"So... If the U.S. decided to pull out of the U.N.
Would the U.N. be justified and righteous in bringing in a global army to crush us and force us back into the union?"

"Why not? The U.S. is a union of republics, of states, of sovereign nations, already."

You misinterpret what the name states usually mean outside of a U.S.
context. The U.N. would better be called the U.S., but that name was
already taken. The states of the U.S. are not sovereign see Article IV &
VI of the Constitution. Your statement is false.

"I can see a time when trying to pull out of the U.N. would draw a similar reaction."

I can't. So if the Arab states left the U.N. you think the other states
of the world would try to get them to rejoin? Not likely.

Dave
Amendments IX and X did not supersede Articles IV and VI.
Again the U.S. would have to create another Amendment to create that
right.

I did not disagree with the Jefferson and Lincoln quotes.
Reread my post and you will see I agree with them and how.
The right of revolution always exist for the people, but as the DOI states
there are reasons why you should. The S. seceded in the belief that all
men are NOT created equal. See Alexander Stephens's Cornerstone
Speech.
And one can always try to secede, but in the U.S. it would first require
an amendment as I have already stated.

Lincoln's 1st Inaugural got it right in 1861.

You have not addressed one fact
Why did the US government not try Jefferson Davis? Why did they quietly let him go after a period of imprisonment?

Dottie
Ask Andrew Johnson.
That's probably your best answer.

A thought......
If someone could have been adequately punished for causing a problem that cost approximately 600,000 lives and millions upon millions of dollars, not to mention causing bitterness that would last generations, I would think it would have been done.

As I have stated, the issue of secession has never been settled.

Dottie
Andrew Johnson pardoned every S. who could have been punished.

The issue of secession was settled for better or worse by the war.

Didn't
The whiskey rebellion settle the seccession issue long before the slavers tried to go?

Good writing
As can be seen from the comments, the concept of the "South" "Southern memory" and "the South as other" continues. But I am not so sure on the deification of Lee, the Marble Man (as described by Thomas Connelly). How does "Southern thought" consider other men, Virginians such as Scott and Thomas, who remained loyal to the flag? Perhaps they are more deserving of veneration, but then, they didn't stand as protectors of the "old order" which, as much as you try to sugar-coat it, had at the center of its societal order the "peculiar institution". Of course Lee tends to draw the eye away from the evils of the institution, even as he actively supported it, unlike the afore mentioned generals. That perhaps is the contradiction that makes the concept of "Southern" so interesting to people, both "Southern" and "non-Southern".

importance of Articles of Confed
The SC Declaration of Causes shows the importance put on the
Articles you will note that they emphasize "sovereignty" BUT choose to
ignore the XIII Article, you know the one dealing with how to secede.

They also emphasize the IX and X Amendments and choose to ignore
the IV and VI Articles of the Const. which in no way were weakened by
those Amendments. Bad history.

One will also note that the war was over slavery:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/scarsec.htm

Other federal interventions:
In addition to the Whiskey Rebellion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

Utah War:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
John Brown's Raid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29

And don't forget that the local governments could call on the fed govt
if they needed help under Article IV.

There are better sources than wiki but these are easily accessible and
correct when they state the use of the FEDERAL military.

And if one wants facts
Dottie writes: to nofacts 3:39 PM
You have not addressed one fact
Why did the US government not try Jefferson Davis? Why did they quietly let him go after a period of imprisonment?
-------

You must look in the opposite direction he would point one to

talent scout
please enlighten.

It seems every time we meet on these boards you insult my name and
then bring little or nothing to the table.

amnesty of Davis
It should be noted that Davis was amnestied, not pardoned, more or less
the same thing, but a big deal for S. apologists who can say Davis was
never pardoned:

http://www.drbilllong.com/LegalHistoryII/Johnson.html
http://www.drbilllong.com/LegalHistoryII/JohnsonII.html
http://www.drbilllong.com/LegalHistoryII/JohnsonIII.html
http://www.drbilllong.com/LegalHistoryII/JohnsonIV.html

Thank you, Mr. Greenberg
What a wonderful birthday tribute to one of the finest gentlemen and greatest leaders this country has produced.

The beautiful South gave us
A Civil War
The KKK
Jim Crow
Jesse Helms
George W Bush

Yes; let us celebrate it.

On Destroying the States
The federal government had to force the southern states back into the union in order to make itself supreme. The states signed onto the union because the Constitution limited the power of the federal government. The power of the states was broken with the Confederacy. Direct election of senators further eroded the power of the states and FDR cemented the coffin shut on the Constitution with the expansion of federal power during the Depression.

The Constitution is now irrelevant. It appears as a tool occasionally to justify killing the unborn and protecting criminals from their just desserts. It certainly is not much use protecting the people from an imperial government.

fiscal_conservative
" writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 7:52 PM
The beautiful South gave us
A Civil War
The KKK
Jim Crow
Jesse Helms
George W Bush"

You forgot fundamentalist conservatism and anti science more?

Jesse Helms Is A Great Man
Please, G.W. Bush is no Southerner.
Abraham Lincoln mangled the Constitution. He behaved as if it simply did not apply to him.

Don't excuse evil
at 12:57pm Packrat wrote:
"Too often we look at the past with the lens of the present."
So do we justify everything that happened in the past because we weren't there? I have to believe that there are some transcendent truths that can be known by anyone, or at least people of the past were not so simple that they could not make judgments beyond their culture.
Just because others are imperfect and did wrong things does not justify the wrong that ones hero did.

monticup correction:
In his 8:40 post he wrote:
"Abraham Lincoln mangled the Constitution. He behaved as if it simply did not apply to him."

The post should have read George Bush and not Abraham Lincoln.

M_from_Idaho
Amen - Jefferswon and his slave girl? Now there is real "Family Values"

everyonesfacts
"...The post should have read George Bush and not Abraham Lincoln..."

I believe GW's answer would be the bible is better and trumps the Constitution

monticup
Jesse Helms is a bigot. I heard him with my own ears in the Piedmont at a combined John East/Jesse Helms rally. Scary, very scary. No applause the crowd only said Amen.

Secession morally wrong
All the states except the original thirteen and Texas were creations of the Federal government. Before that they were territories of the U.S.
Whatever justification the South thought it had in secession, the very attempt risked the destruction of the U.S.. With all her faults, the U.S. was and is a comparatively great nation. To risk destroying that without overriding, compelling reason is and was wrong.

talent scout pure BS
"...reminding all of what is truly important. Not victory or defeat but honor."

Pardon??? Give me results any day. How honorable is it to have your women impregnated and your children enslaved or condemned to perpetuale poverty? Just a question. Guess you adore Yammamoto and Rommel too?

"...He believed in something greater than his own self."

So did Hitler and the SS.

"Lost to the present day masses of people.
Honor will rise above every defamation or shame."

Fool

"Lee proves that"

Not

How to be loyal
It has been said that Lee was loyal to his native Virginia. So? When the one to whom you are loyal is doing wrong, the loyal thing is to oppose him or her in his or her wrong.

M_from_Idaho
"With all her faults, the U.S. was and is a comparatively great nation. To risk destroying that without overriding, compelling reason is and was wrong. "

They had the same reason as now: GREED

Let the South be good
Many have pointed out some great things about the South. Others have pointed out some of its shortcomings.
My point here is that we make progress when we acknowledge the wrongs of those with whom we identify as wrongs and no longer pretend that they are honorable. The South's role in secession seems obviously wrong as was Lee's fighting for it.

Responding to Hal
"They had the same reason as now: GREED"
I don't think so. Greed isn't that stupid.
I think they felt their identity and way of life were threatened by the election of Lincoln. One will do many a stupid thing on behalf of one's identity.

I find you silly sn offensive first off
everyonesfacts writes: 7:06 PM
talent scout
please enlighten.
------
ts:
That is entirely in your own power, not mine to give.


--------
noonesfacts :
It seems every time we meet on these boards you insult my name and
then bring little or nothing to the table.
-----
.

The only facts you can know is the ones of your own life.

History is there for all of us to read

No man needs any history filtered through you
You got an opinion just like everyone else has, thats it.


Hal Donahue...you just stirring...
The Southern pot?
I can't get a fix on you this thread...but tending to agree...I think :)

Pls write more and in depth about WR...you need to be more prolific and thorough...IMHO :)
-RonM

Hal Doofus writes:
monticup
Jesse Helms is a bigot. I heard him with my own ears in the Piedmont at a combined John East/Jesse Helms rally. Scary, very scary. No applause the crowd only said Amen.

Helms is no less a bigot than you are, Hal. Your hatred for the South and Southerners is palpable and shows up in any post you make about the South.

BTW, there is a pretty good book by Richard McCaslin of UNT about Lee. It's caaled "Lee in the Shadow of Washington."

Waste of time
To respond to you HalD and your opinions, who cares what you think.



The men who made the decisions thought very highly of Robert E Lee both before and after the War.
He was a man of Honor.
Something you will never understand HalD.



On the eve of the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln, through Secretary Francis Blair, offered him command of the Union Army.

There was little doubt as to Lee's sentiments. He was utterly opposed to secession and considered slavery evil.

His views on the United States were equally clear - "no north, no south, no east, no west," he wrote, "but the broad Union in all its might and strength past and present."

"Well Mary," he said calmly, "the question is settled. Here is my letter of resignation."

He could not, he told her, lift his hand against his own people.

He had "endeavored to do what he thought was right," and replied to Blair that "...though opposed to secession and a deprecating war, I could take no part in the invasion of the Southern States."

He resigned his commission and left his much beloved Arlington to "go back in sorrow to my people and share the misery of my native state."

With the war now over, Lee set an example to all in his refusal to express bitterness.

"Abandon your animosities," he said, "and make your sons Americans."

He then set out to work for a permanent union of the states.

Grant himself held this man in the highest esteem possible.
So who cares what some clown called HalD thinks about General Lee.

ts
Were you trying to prove my point of bringing nothing to the table.

You point to no history for all of us to read.

You should see that in almost all of my posts I relate nothing from my
own life.

You also fail to enlighten Dottie or I on where to look in the opposite
direction I point to in your 6:51 post.
Is it Alexander Stephens? Thomas DiLorenzo? Other S. apologists?

talent scout writes:
On the eve of the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln, through Secretary Francis Blair, offered him command of the Union Army.

There was little doubt as to Lee's sentiments. He was utterly opposed to secession and considered slavery evil.

His views on the United States were equally clear - "no north, no south, no east, no west," he wrote, "but the broad Union in all its might and strength past and present."

Dr. McCaslin made the same points in a presentation, I heard him make on his book. Dr. McCaslin stated that hadVirginia remained in the union, Lee probably would have remained loyal and in the army.

Government by the people
What hippocrites was Lincoln and his supporters. He must have mis-spoke. He must have ment government of by and for the north.

Greed was responsible for the Civil War
I can agree with anyone, including HalD with that, cause Lincoln named it himself as responsible.

Abraham Lincoln
Second Inaugural Address
Saturday, March 4, 1865
(excerpt)

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.

This part Lincoln names it.

"urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation."


Otto von Bismark, the Chancellor of Germany, who united the German states had this to say:

"The division of the United States into federations of equal force was decided long before the Civil War by the high financial powers of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States if they remained as one block would attain economic and financial independence which would upset their financial domination over the world."

Curious thing about history is, one must still decide for himself what he believes.
For me, I believe Bismark and Lincoln both knew who wanted the division of the States into free and slave.

Bankers

Greed was responsible for the Civil War
I can agree with anyone, including HalD with that, cause Lincoln named it himself as responsible.

Abraham Lincoln
Second Inaugural Address
Saturday, March 4, 1865
(excerpt)

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.

This part Lincoln names it.

"urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation."


Otto von Bismark, the Chancellor of Germany, who united the German states had this to say:

"The division of the United States into federations of equal force was decided long before the Civil War by the high financial powers of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States if they remained as one block would attain economic and financial independence which would upset their financial domination over the world."

Curious thing about history is, one must still decide for himself what he believes.
For me, I believe Bismark and Lincoln both knew who wanted the division of the States into free and slave.

Bankers

Hey Lumberjack: How ya doing???

Can't believe the SC primary!! Whodda thought?


Anne writes:
Hey Lumberjack: How ya doing???

Can't believe the SC primary!! Whodda thought?

Not too bad.

Given the large military and veteran population, McCain's win is not too surprising. What was surprising was the weather.

At least the Huckster lost
.

I believe this as well
Lumberjack7392 writes: 10:04 PM


Dr. McCaslin made the same points in a presentation, I heard him make on his book. Dr. McCaslin stated that had Virginia remained in the union, Lee probably would have remained loyal and in the army
------

I do believe the General's first principle was duty to his own people and home State.
That may be hard for some to understand in this day (for most)when one's home State is not anything special as it was back then.

MellorSJ2 - Amen :)
:)

talent scout writes:
I do believe the General's first principle was duty to his own people and home State.

One of Lee's most famous satements was, "Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less."

The Second American Revolution…

The inalienable right of self-government had been violated; the POTUS had declared war against sovereign States, which had only exercised their constitutional rights.

Horace Greeley in the New York Tribune was ably advocating the right of the Southern States to peaceably withdraw from the Union, and pointing out the folly of the claim that the General Government had any right to coerce them. Among other things he said: “If the Cotton States shall become satisfied that they can do better out of the Union than in it, we insist on letting them go in peace. The Right to secede may be a revolutionary one, but it exists nevertheless.” Again: “We hope never to live in a republic whereof one section is pinned to the residue by bayonets.” And again: “If the Declaration of Independence justified the secession from the British Empire of 3 million colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the secession of 5 million Southerners from the Federal Union in 1861.”

But what did Lee say? Lee regarded his allegiance to the sovereign State of Virginia as paramount to all others, and that he must obey her voice at whatever sacrifice of feeling, or of personal interest. He regarded any attempt to “pin the States in the Union with the bayonet” as a violation of the fundamental principles for which the fathers fought in 1776.

In his letter of resignation from his commission in the Army (after being offered the supreme command of the army that was to take the field against the seceded States) he says…

“Save in defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword.” –R. E. Lee

In our day we are so far removed from the foundations of liberty that it is hard of us to understand Americans like Robert E. Lee.

[Quotes from Life & Letters of General Robert E. Lee by J. W. Jones]

13th - 15th amendments
saltydog writes: Saturday, January, 19, 2008 10:10 PM
Government by the people
What hippocrites was Lincoln and his supporters. He must have mis-spoke. He must have ment government of by and for the north.

No the Civil War truly did create a "new birth of freedom" probably the
great benefit of a war whose catalyst slavery ("One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute."), but was not fought over slavery but to maintain
the union.

Anyways, after the war the government became more of the people, by
the people, and for the people for better or worse.

Again, I recommend Lincoln's First Inaugural as the best analysis at the
time and since of why the Civil War was fought in 1861.

ValiantforTruth
Again Lincoln was a man of his word - read the First Inaugural:

"In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."

Lincoln did not fire on Fort Sumter.

He merely wanted to bring it back into the Union in his Declaration of
War:

"I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the force hereby called forth will probably be to repossess the forts, places, and property which have been seized from the Union, and, in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistently with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation, any destruction of, or interference with property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens in any part of the country; and I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse and retire peaceably to their respective abodes within twenty days from this date."

Obviously, men like Lee and his supporters changed these goals.

everyonesfacts writes:
He merely wanted to bring it back into the Union in his Declaration of
War:

"I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the force hereby called forth will probably be to repossess the forts, places, and property which have been seized from the Union, and, in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistently with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation, any destruction of, or interference with property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens in any part of the country; and I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse and retire peaceably to their respective abodes within twenty days from this date."

Obviously, men like Lee and his supporters changed these goals.

Uh, try John Pope,and William T. Sherman waged war on civilians in 1862.

LJ 7392
Uh, I already mentioned that,
"Obviously, men like Lee and his supporters changed these goals."

What part of "changed" are you not understanding?

Anyways, I do not support war on civilians that does not change what
Lincoln was fighting the war for when he declared war.

Interesting site/article on Northern agression:
http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/grimsley1/usma/rest2.ht m

And of course, every bullet fired by the CSA was an act of treason.

Lincoln's Declaration of War:
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/a pril/abraham-lincoln-declaration-war.htm

If Lee was a traitor...
Hal keeps saying that Lee was a traitor because he took an oath to the United States.

Okay, what about George Washington ? He was a Colonel in the Virginia Militia fighting for the British Army during the French and Indian War (prior to the American Revolutionary War). Did he take an oath to the king of England ? By Hal's logic, wouldn't that make Washington a traitor of the first order ?

Were there any signers of the Declaration of Independance that had once served in the British Military or held any Government office where they would have had to take an oath to the King ? Are they also traitors ?

Funny, OUR history books don't list them as such ????

Treason
Treason is taking action, (legally defined as such) against the govt of the country in which you are a citizen. The morality of treason is defined by the reason for the action, and by the deeds of the govt against which treason is committed. The plotting to kill Hitler was treason, as was the assassination of JFK. The humanity and motives of Rommel and Oswald. of Lee and Hanoi Jane can not be defined merely by calling them traitors.

Interesting point
Somebody brought up the fact that the Civil War settled the question about secession. In a manner of speaking, that is correct. But the question is: Was it right?

Is anyone here actually comfortable with the US government, through the use of the military, settling Constitutional issues? I know I'm not.

I am not saying the Supreme Court is always right; heaven knows we have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. They, however, should have been the ones to settle the question as they are the ones with the power of
interpretation.

Jefferson Davis was not tried for one reason, and one reason only. The US government was not sure it could win the case.

I truly am a dispassionate observer, as I have stated, I am Yankee through and through. Robert E. Lee was not a god; he was a man with a huge decision to make. None of us have walked in his shoes, and we cannot know the agony he must have gone through in order to do what he did. Remember, he never referred to the North as the enemy, but as those people. He had a decency about him that is not common.

Those of us who started the discussion feeling that Lee was a traitor have come to that conclusion based on what they have been taught, read, and from their own prejudices. Those who believe he is not one come by their conclusion in the same way. Nobody can "win" this argument no matter how hard they try, and no matter what evidence they give.

I am sure Lee, modest man that he was, would be amazed that we were even talking about him nearly 138 years after his death. To demonize or to deify him, either one is wrong. He is an intensely interesting man to study, and for those who have not done so, I highly recommend it!

easystreet, savage99, dottie
easystreet, of course they were traitors to the crown just as Lee and his
confeds were traitors to the country. Now GW were Patriots to their new
country as Lee was a patriot to an attempted country. Although I believe
both rebellions were unnecessary and overreactions to the situation the
Revolutionary generation was fighting for something benign and the
Confeds were fighting for something malignant.

savage99, obviously what Lee and company did was treason.

dottie, I believe if you read both the First Inaugural and Declaration of
War you will find Lincoln wanted either the Congress to settle it by
creating an Amendment or taking it to the SCOTUS, not taking it into
their own hands.

If you can provide proof that the government believed it could not prove
its case against Jeff Davis that would be useful. I have never seen
evidence of this. I am not saying I have not heard this assertion, but
I am saying I have never seen say private papers of U.S. Grant, Thaddeus
Stephens, etc. that would be helpful. After 1868 it was moot anyways
since he had been granted amnesty.

Constitutional?
Where does it really say in the Constitution that secession is not allowed? It does not say it at all.

I have found a great deal of anecdotal evidence stating that the US government could not win a treason case against Jefferson Davis. A bigger question is why the US did not try him. Why did they arrest him, hold him in harsh conditions, try to link him to Lincoln's assassination, and lay the blame for Andersonville on him only grant him amnesty and let him go?

Are you really comfortable with the US government using military force to settle Constitutional issues? Why didn't Lincoln go through Congress or the Courts when the south seceded? Why did he goad them into war, and make no mistake, that is exactly what he did. All I am saying is I do not know if secession is constitutional or not, and neither does anyone else because it has not been laid to rest.

I also find it interesting that you say the colonists were fighting for something benign while the South was fighting for something malignant. That sounds to me like a case of whose ox is getting gored. Both were fighting for their own self-determination, and many in the South consider the Civil War the Second War of Independence.

I am a Northerner, and I am glad the North won the war, but I am not convinced that secession is illegal.

Dottie
What I have read (open to your own take) is Lincoln knew outside forces (european) were involved in trying to divide the States to intentionally break-up the Union.

They held lots of power due to the money they poured into the Cotton business.

It was these outside forces that stirred up the people in this country and who joined in the Secession from the Union.

European money powers have always resented American prosperity, and they now own us through the Federal Reserve Banking System they got into America.
So much to this, one will have to study how it was the money powers of the Founders time who were the power behind even that War on America.

The way to undermine a nation is to destroy his money and economy.

Think about how it stopped the USSR

Investigate almost any war
And look into the money powers that financed it.

Who made money or gained power from the war.

How the war is fought is not just from a foxhole.

Continental Congress decided to print up to 200 million worth of Continentals, and they did;


The hyperinflation, which caused the collapse, was due to the printing presses of British General William Howe (1729-1814), who from warships anchored in the New York harbour counterfeited Continentals by the cartload to the extent of an estimated billion units.

Hence the saying, “it isn’t worth a Continental.” This was the first historical collapse of the dollar.

This same warfare is destroying our dollar today, in my and others opinion.
Money powers were also the cause of the Civil War and the Secession.

dottie
Dottie writes: Sunday, January, 20, 2008 9:14 PM
Constitutional?
Where does it really say in the Constitution that secession is not allowed?

Again, Lincoln's First Inaugural pretty much gets it right.
This site is the best on the Constitution and has this article about both
sides of the issue:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

This site seems to have good information and articles to refer to, but
not exactly what we're looking for:
http://jeffersondavis.rice.edu/faqs.cfm



Are you really comfortable with the US government using military force to settle Constitutional issues?

When necessary yes. As a rule no.

Why didn't Lincoln go through Congress or the Courts when the south seceded?

He did go through the Congress and they voted for the war.
The SCOTUS would probably have ruled with the S where there loyalties
were, but the question is how should they have ruled. I say see the
article above.


dottie
"Why did he goad them into war, and make no mistake, that is exactly what he did."

Goad? Hard to say, the S, again as Lincoln's Firts Inaugural makes clear,
had the ball in their court. If federal troops had fired first there would
be a whole different set of arguments, but the rebels did. In this case,
Lincoln was a man of his word and showed the restraint he said he
would as Commander-in-Chief.

As I said before the war laid the issue to rest as the article above states.
In theory and argument and theory it is still up in the air, but in reality
it isn't.

"I also find it interesting that you say the colonists were fighting for something benign while the South was fighting for something malignant. That sounds to me like a case of whose ox is getting gored. Both were fighting for their own self-determination, and many in the South consider the Civil War the Second War of Independence."

Ummm, no compare the DOI to the Cornerstone Address. One made
it more possible that all men (and women) are not only created equal,
but treated as such, and one was to make it permanent that "all men
are NOT created equal.
The malignancy was slavery as Lincoln correctly points out in the 1st
and 2nd Inaugurals. And many others from the S consider it their new
birth of freedom - truly, the Second War of Independence.

The North did not win the war, the United States did.


ts
Good to see that Marxist interpretations of history are not dead.

Not to say it can't be a contributing factor. But do Potter, Freehling,
MacPherson place it as such a major factor? I think not, but I would be
interested in hearing who does.

ts
okay, I see Bismarck.

Any historians who agree with this?

Please remain on subject.
This article is not about the Civil War, or Lincoln, or the legality of secession. It is about the identity of the South and Lee's relationship to it.

We are at an impasse
I am not saying you are wrong, and I am not saying you are right everyonesfact. Secession has never been decided in the Supreme Court, so I am unwilling to spit on the grave of R.E. Lee.


spitting on graves? and the South
I don't spit on the grave of Lee.
Hardly, he was a man of conviction.
A man of conviction who reluctantly commited treason.
Thus, no one should question his loyalty to what he believed in.
He was just on the wrong side of history whether secession was legal or
not, and I believe it was not, it was done for the most tragic and
malicious of reasons - the maintenance of slavery.

M_from_Idaho, secession, Lee, the justness of the Civil War, Jefferson
Davis, Nathan Bedford Forrest, are all part of "the South"

So is the New South, the Reagan Democrats (now Republicans, the new
black middle class, old age communities, etc. etc.

The S, like every other region is complex and contradictory.

Don't compliment Bin Laden
He was never a citizen of the USA. He may have attacked America, but Lee betrayed her. A low down dirty traitor who deserves no place of honor whatsoever.

Just Confederates?
Hit them right behind the ear. Give mercy to those who fly that flag in ingnorance. If they raise a cane, shoot them in the stomach and let them try and vote their way out. What is one just Confederate cause? They speak of national leaders. Jefferson Davis gave some pretty "HOPEFUL" speaches, yet in the end, he watched his nation burn. Why do Confederates even have a right to vote? They are inbred pedophiles and it's why everyone should be pro-abortion and pro-death penalty.
There is no such thing as an innocent Confederate.

JYD
innocent or not they're all dead whether they're
buried in closets or in Mannasas, VA.

Neo-Confeds that's a different story.


Yup
Neo-Confederates are one of the greatest social maladies our country faces. They key issue of that war was how the new states' economies would be run. Abolitionists raced into Kansas and Nebraska as armed militias of what would become Confederates would slaughter them in an attempt to make the new state a slave state. In the end the Union won at the ballot box. The Confederate fury reached a fever pitch when Sumner was caned by Brooks. This act was the first secession. They ran out of arguments and tried to deal with people in a manner that they were used to, with whips or canes. The true debate ended at that point. It was only a matter of time until everyone like them tried to figuratively cane the rest of the nation into submission. They failed and Lee was the best they had. The strange part is that at that point in history most people thought like them and were willing to let them have their own nation. Then they went and invaded and tried to cut our supply lines to the West. If they'd have succeeded the USA would have a different map today. With luck the Union finally proved its point, in debate and on the battlefield. Yet somewhere there is rebel yell, we could've just killed them all, but we are against genocide too. Another argument proven by they fact that they still exist in some Neo-Confederate form. Wallowing in their former glory somewhere down there, the Neo-Confederates skulk about wondering why nobody wants to hear their "argument" anymore. I'd love to hear them argue but it's usually a bunch of insults and then they try to hit you with a cane.
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