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Friday, January 11, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Too Good For This World: Waterboarding and Its Discontents
by Paul Greenberg
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It’s been eclipsed in the news for just a moment by all the hubbub over the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire presidential primary, but earlier you may have noticed the latest suggestion in Congress and Medialand over how to conduct the war on terror: Go after the good guys.

Honest. Not the enemy. But the CIA. Not its chief but the lower-downs. Maybe even the grunts. The foot soldiers who do the real work, take the real risks, and who get their hands and maybe even their consciences dirty. Because they’ve got a real war for fight, not another Power Point presentation to prepare or computer projection to analyze.

Besides, you can be sure the higher-ups long ago took every precaution to assure what used to be called Plausible Deniability. You see their names and pictures in the paper from time to time — the well-tailored bureaucrats with clean fingernails who sit in air-conditioned offices at Langley issuing memos designed to cover their precious backsides. Just in case, as they say, Questions Arise.

Rather than go after those at the very top of the organizational chart, congressional investigators are homing in on the CIA’s clandestine service and those in it — the agents who’ve done the dirty work, whether in Iraq or Afghanistan or in secret prisons around the world that don’t officially exist.

These agents are the latest targets of the second-guessers in Congress, in the media, and in general. All of these worthies sound shocked — shocked! — at what Americans on the front lines in this war on terror may have done for no better reason than to protect the rest of us.

It turns out that our people may actually have poured water down some innocent terrorist’s nose in an attempt to make the subject think he’s about to drown unless he tells them what they want to know. Like the plans for the next 9-11.

They may even have mistreated some real innocents, for identities do have a way of getting confused in wartime — just ask anybody who’s ever been subjected to “friendly” fire. This is the nature of the world in which we live. Let’s not pretend that the choices to be made in fighting this war or any other are simple.

What a difference a few years can make. In the immediate aftermath of September 11th, leading figures in Congress who were briefed on the CIA’s anti-terrorist tactics were demanding more action against those who had attacked this country, not less.

The leaders of the intelligence committees of both houses of Congress — the so-called Gang of Four — were thoroughly briefed on the tactics being used back then, including waterboarding. Their response? To quote the testimony of Porter Goss, who served as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee before he was director of the CIA, “the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”

When this bipartisan set of congressional leaders — which included Nancy Pelosi, now speaker of the House — got an hour-long virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas prisons, and the harsh tactics used there, including waterboarding, no objections were raised.

Indeed, according to officials present, at least two of the lawmakers asked the CIA to push harder for information. The official conducting the briefing “was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough,” to quote one of the participants in a meeting held in September of 2002.

But that was then. The events of September 11, 2001, were still fresh in the nation’s memory. But there hasn’t been another successful terrorist attack since, at least not in this country. And as the danger seems to diminish, we grow more sensitive to the civil liberties of those who would destroy our own — or rather just destroy us, period.

The tapes of those interrogations, including waterboarding, now have been destroyed, for they would have made a great anti-American propaganda weapon once they were leaked, as surely they would have been one day. And the tapes might also have revealed the identities of those American agents.

So now, years later, some congressmen are in the usual medium-to-high dudgeon over the tapes’ destruction. And a formal criminal investigation is under way lest any signal service to the nation’s security go unpunished. In short, the country’s anti-anti-terrorists are in a snit.

In a curious way, all this criticism is a tribute to the current administration. How’s that? Well, imagine that there had been another successful terrorist attack on these shores that claimed still more thousands of lives, even tens of thousands if the more grandiose ambitions of al-Qaida were fulfilled. Would anybody now be outraged at the possibility that our intelligence agencies might not be fighting the terrorists by Marquess of Queensberry rules?

Unlikely. On the contrary, CIA officials would doubtless be called on the carpet, and accused of not doing nearly enough to squeeze information out of the terrorists who had fallen into our hands.

But no major terrorist attack having occurred in this country since September 11, 2001, we’re all supposed to be terribly upset that those plotting to kill as many Americans as possible might have been denied all the rights, privileges and protections ordinarily accorded fully accredited, properly uniformed, legitimate prisoners of war.

We have become so used to blurring the distinction between legal and illegal combatants, between prisoners taken in conventional battle and cutthroats out to murder innocent civilians of all ages, that it’s almost assumed now that terrorists are entitled to be treated according to the Geneva Convention — even though it spells out certain requirements for claiming the rights of a prisoner of war, like being responsible to a sovereign government and fighting in uniform.

This debate over waterboarding is largely abstract now, since the CIA abandoned the practice a few years ago. Once it became public knowledge that waterboarding really isn’t designed to be fatal, but rather to convince the prisoner that it is, and that he’s about to be drowned unless he tells all, the tactic largely lost its usefulness. But before it did, the technique is said to have played a crucial role in extracting vital information from top al-Qaida operatives like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who is now in custody at Guantanamo, thank goodness.

Though he refused to cooperate with American intelligence for months after his capture, it’s said that it took only a minute or so under water for KSM, as he’s known in the official records, to start talking. The intelligence he provided was instrumental in the capture and/or conviction of at least six major terrorist suspects and the prevention of major attacks on civilian targets in this country and abroad, including a scheme to send the Brooklyn Bridge crashing into the East River.

Knowing what we now know, would we really risk the lives of thousands of innocents rather than permit American operatives to use their most effective technique against a mass killer like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who once bragged about directing the September 11th attacks? (And claimed to have personally beheaded Daniel Pearl, too.)

But the question in Congress has become whether those who conducted his successful interrogation should be punished and exposed. By all means, if the law has been broken, those who broke it in the course of effectively preventing another September 11th should be tried, convicted, and punished — and then given a medal. For the law is the law. But duty is duty. One does not cancel out the other.

Once the head of the CIA’s clandestine service at the time these tapes were destroyed is properly reamed out by a congressional investigating committee, or even put in jail, he will still have the satisfaction of duty done. And it would be an honor to shake his hand.

As for any politician who takes the high ethical ground, at least in his own opinion, and speaks glibly of going after those American agents who have used harsh tactics against terrorists, he should be asked: How many innocent lives would you be willing to risk in order to spare a Khalid Sheik Mohammed a minute of stark fear?

That’s an ethical question, too. For we are all responsible not only for what we do but for what we fail to do, and that includes failing to protect the innocent or our own intelligence agents.

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Burt,
Don't be so surprised the lefties go after our own. How else can you lose a war?

waterboard all domestic criminals
Waterboarding should definitely be made constitutional and even routine standard interogation for all domestic criminals and especially for serial killers, drug dealers at all levels, child abusers, etc to get quick confessions and life saving information.

Domestic waterboarding would break the back of the drug dealers at all levels and it would not be very long at all until all the self styled hip hop "Souljas" "Pimps" "Hos" and "Niggas" started "rattin" each other out.

We would very soon see the beginning of a new ghetto ethos: *start snitching*!

(instead of "Stop" snitching.)

But no, we should never water board foreigner
combatants as as it will inevitably be adopted by hostile nations to OUR troops- I agree with Senator McCain on that issue.


Once again: US soldier on torture
I just posted this on Burt P's column, but to recap, a had a long discussion with a soldier just back from Iraq who was assigned to a detention center outside of Baghdad. His practical experience has shown him that techniques like waterboarding do not work. He also resents people like this author and Burt defending these practices when they have no idea what they are talking about.

knight_of_baawa


KOB: “Waterboarding = torture”


Your simple assertion does not make it so, but if you would like to try to prove your assertion, I’ll listen.



~~~



KOB: “Japanese were prosecuted after WW2 for waterboarding. That's a fact.”


If you are referring to Japanese military officer Yukio Asano, then more precisely, your comment is a misrepresentation of “fact”. Asano was charged with two war crimes:


1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs. (UC Berkeley War Crimes Studies Center)


The “specifications” included “beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward” (ibid)


The documents I found from UC Berkeley do not define “water torture”, which can certainly mean many things. The Chinese are known for a particular kind of water torture so infamous that it bears their country’s name, and would certainly include “strapping on a stretcher” or other device to keep the subject’s head stationary.



~~~



KOB: “Now I know that the people who think that torturing muslims is ok are just anti-muslim bigots (don't deny it--don't you dare lie and deny it)”


I suspect that the religion of the person being interrogated is irrelevant to those who advocate torture, but I do not concede your assertion that waterboarding is torture to begin with.



~~~



KOB: “but your bloodlust to torture and murder those of the "wrong religion" is certainly not what jesus taught, is it?”


Nice hyperbole, but no one is advocating “bloodlust to torture and murder” for anyone, “wrong religion” or otherwise.



cornpone harry - please consider...


cornpone harry writes: “But no, we should never water board foreigner combatants as as it will inevitably be adopted by hostile nations to OUR troops- I agree with Senator McCain on that issue.”


Where does this kind of misguided “logic” come from?


Did “foreigner combatants” adopt flying passenger planes into our buildings because we did it to them first? Did “foreigner combatants” adopt sawing people’s heads off with machetes because we did it to them first?


Our own troops are subjected to waterboarding in their survival skills training in anticipation of this treatment by “foreigner combatants”, and those who are captured by the enemy are subjected to far worse treatment than waterboarding.


This argument that ‘we better not do anything that could possibly be perceived as “harsh” to them, or else they might do something “harsh” to us’ is just simply naive… Among other mistakes, it is projecting “our values” onto the enemy, without any cause (besides cultural ignorance and arrogance) to think they share “our values” in the first place…



Scott please see my earlier post
This soldiers viewpoint jibes with what the professionals have been saying for some time; These techniques are the least ineffective and deliver unreliable results. Beyond that, as others have argued more eloquently than I, we cannot base our standards of conduct on the behavior of a bunch or nut jobs. We're better than that...We're Americans.

bryce3 - facts say otherwise...


bryce3 writes: “I just posted this on Burt P's column, but to recap, a had a long discussion with a soldier just back from Iraq who was assigned to a detention center outside of Baghdad. His practical experience has shown him that techniques like waterboarding do not work. He also resents people like this author and Burt defending these practices when they have no idea what they are talking about.”


This kind of anecdotal evidence is unfortunately meaningless. It’s hearsay of one man’s (or woman’s) opinion at best. Even if your retelling is entirely accurate regarding what this soldier said, who were you talking to, Lynndie England?


Unless the soldier you were talking to is high enough in rank to even be present during interrogations where waterboarding has been used, he cannot possibly know if the practice is effective or not from his own “practical experience”.


Not to mention that his conclusion is clearly contradicted by the “practical experience” of acknowledged experts, including those who performed the procedure on (and who were successful in getting valuable information from) both Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.


I understand that this soldier you talked to has a negative opinion when it comes to “techniques like waterboarding”, and he certainly has a right to his (or her) opinion.


Other people have other opinions, and the information gained from “waterboarding” Zubaydah and Khalid demonstrate that it works.



But Scott
Granted what I present is an anectdot. You however base your defense of waterboarding on the fact that it works. You know this how? Please note that the source for your claims regarding Zubaydah and Khalid is a government which defends its' use of these techniques. This is the same government that destroyed the only known imperical evidence of how well these techniques worked.

It should also be noted that one of the prime sources for the false claims of a meeting with the 9/11 hijackers and agents of Saddam Hussein was obtained through the use of torture techniques, and look at the mess that got us into.

Freedom and liberty
Goddamn it! Why don't they just use pliers like the good old days? Or smash them to pieces like those good old CIA guys did in Lebanon leading to the CIA guidance in 1983 against using torture (defined properly as any action desigbed to cause pain - not Gonzalez weasel re-interpretation which no respectable lawyer i nthe owrld agrees with). The USA, in the good old days used to be regarded as leader of the free world because it had standards of democracy and individual liberty. All that Bush, with the support of people like you have done is waste the valuable moral capital that the USA had built up since the war (WW2 that is - the real one). Now the US is regarded is a bullying tyrant in many areas in the world and only pays lip service to ideas of democracy and liberty to people outside the US. Personally it makes me sad as great presidents such as Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower laid the basis of international law which was the model fo r the world until you tossers screwed it up.

Torture
We only have a the word of people who have a vested interest in saying torture works to justify their illegal actions in torturing people. The CIA, following the incident referred to above in Lebanon came to the conclusion that torture does not work and in fact was often counter-productive and lost valuable information. To the pillock above who said the japanese guy was not done for waterboarding, just water torture on POWs - presumably he would hav e made the same distinction in relation to torture agaisnt american POWs in 1945. That is exactly the reason that Rooselvelt initially, and then Truman, forced Churchill to agree to international laws about torture and conduct of war. Torture is always torture, blurring of lines may come back to bite you later. As a matter of interest, if the US goes to war agaisnt Iran, say, would Gonzalez distinction be reliable by Iran agaisnt US soldiers. Luckily for the US the rest of the world would say no - hopefully your next administration will agree and save everyone embarrassment.

What facts are you sticking to.
People like you (and that includes a good chunk of the CIA) are so interested in victory for their political party that they claim all sorts of things don't work...... like fighting back.

War is war...
sXXX happens... the first casualty is truth... platitudes from the battlefield. Italy, Germany, Japan, China, Soviet Union, North Vietnam didn't always follow the Geneva Accords that occurred after WW I.

waterboarding naivity
But no, we should never water board foreigner
combatants as as it will inevitably be adopted by hostile nations to OUR troops- I agree with Senator McCain on that issue.-cornpone harry

*************************************************

I pity people as naive as you. You ACTUALLY believe people who routinely cut off peoples heads and use all means of torture, as has been PROVED, would NOT use a method on us because we don't use it on them.

Terrorist look at you and laugh. You are their very best friend and seem to actively work to help them win.

Liberals don't get it
Bryce3

Your assertion that water boarding doesn't work is proved wrong by the testimony of the CIA which used it on KSM to great affect as is described and in other publications.

Weak pathetic knee bending in the face of these nutbags who want ALL of us dead and laugh at the Geneva Convention rules as you swear by them almost as if it were a bible. The plain fact is the liberals are simply terrified of a fight, any fight and will do ANYTHING including simply giving up in the hopes they will be allowed to live their miserable empty lives, perhaps hidden away in fear but at least alive.

It would be just sad to see any human stoop to this but when it endangers the rest of us it becomes criminal.

You have your facts & I have mine -
1. Water boarding is not (by definition) torture as it does not cause extreme pain nor cause lasting damage.
2. Water boarding HAS NOT been prohibited by the Congress nor the Justice Department.
3. Any official military organization or group of individuals that take up arms against the U.S., but are not signatories to the Geneva Convention, have no rights under that convention.
4. When has ANY enemy of ours worried about torture or war crimes? It has nothing to do with us, what we do or have done - our enemies have always tortured U.S. military personnel without prompting to achieve their own ends. So much for Sen. McCain's argument (otherwise I respect the hell out of the man).

The main thing that most of you are leaving out of your arguments is that the whole hubbub is being caused by political positioning and loyalty to party (NOT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE) - not because any law has been broken.

Same with the firing of the 18 federal attorneys, they served at the president's pleasure!

Same with the Plame woman, she had no undercover status - thus, was not outed as you would be led to believe!

I, for one, would never put out false information on these posts - can you say the same about yourself?





DEBATE: MITT ROMNEY & JOHN McCAIN
DEBATE: MITT ROMNEY & JOHN McCAIN GET INTO IT! WATERBOARDING

WATCH VIDEO


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/debate-mitt-romney -john-mccain-get-into-it-waterboarding

If waterboarding
(and torture in general) doesn't work, then why has it been used for centuries? Why use this method if it is useless? Clearly, those who contend that it doesn't work are merely trying to advance an agenda - and have no compuntion about maligning the character of some of our most patriotic, or sacrificing the lives of fellow citizens, in the process.

WHO says waterboarding doesn't work?

Do they mean it doesn't work ALL the time, or NONE of the time?

Well, SOMETIMES it DOES work!!!!

“… waterboarding "broke" one stubbornly silent Al Qaeda recruiter after just 35 seconds.”

Zayn Abu Zubaida, the first high-ranking Al Qaeda member captured after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

"From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks."


That's what we need! A bunch of weenies deciding just how we're going to fight this WOT!



This article
Waterboarding is not simulated drowning, it is drowning. Anytime your lungs fill with water you are drowning. To anyone who doesn't believe waterboarding is torture. Go strap a 15 pd bowling ball to your leg and jump into a lake. Now have someone pull you out and repeat, repeat, and repeat. Hope you enjoy that rush of tasting what you had for breakfast that morning.

To those who think it is not illegal:

Geneva Convention

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

Case closed




I HAVE
I have been waterboarded and I have administered it also in training classes.

Bryce3: Heres a question you need to ask you friend who was in IRAQ that stated waterboarding dont work. If waterboarding a Terrorist would have kept you and other soldiers from having to go to IRAQ WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IT.

First off if this friend is a Military person then he is LYING about waterboarding because the Military never uses waterboarding, it is done by the CIA and Special Ops Groups.

I spent 22yrs in the Military and not once Did I see a Soldier administer waterboarding in the FIELD. Now in training exercises maybe but not in Combat.

But if Waterboarding doesnt work then why has it been around for ever. Sems to me when something dont work you quit doing it.

Question for all Presidential Candidates?

If waterboarding would have stoped 9/11 would you have used it?

My bet is all would say YES. If not they need not apply for the job of POTUS/Commander-In-CHief

knight_of_baawa
I'll start listening to your arguments when you answer the question in Paul's next to last paragraph.

Hondo
First you dsont know crap about Waterboarding Before you make a statement like that you need to go a find out how its done. You dont jump in no lake our river IDIOT.

You cannot drown if your lungs do not fill up with water.

You are placed on a board at a 45% angle with your feet in the air and your head towards the Ground. Have you ever tried filling up a bucket with water that is laying on its side? The bucket want fill up and neither will your LUNGS.

Now it makes you think you are going to drown but thats why it is successful.

Do some research IDIOT. I have been waterboarded.

Article 3 from Geneva Convention

Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

chuck
I just love your mastery of the English language...top notch. Learn how to spell first then we will listen to you.

To All
If waterboarding wasnt used Brooklyn would be without a BRIDGE today. What did the CIA person state>

It stopped over a DOZEN or SO attacks in this country.

So I take it that it would have been alright to you LIBS if at least a DOZEN CITIES would have been attacked instead.

This is why you HATE AMERICA LIBS cannot be put in the WHITE HOUSE during WAR TIME because you would give up this COUNTRY just for your POLITICAL POWER.

Now that is whats more shameful than WATERBOARDING. I will and Continue to state that LIBS are UNPATRIATIC when it comes to defending this NATION. ie COWARDS.

chuck
I hope that last post was a joke. I see you used spell check, high five!

By the way there are several bridges in Brooklyn. You should come out of your barn.

HONDO
If I waterboarded you it wouldnt matter about MY SPELLING. IDIOT

I know how to spell LIBTURD, especially when IM TALKING TO ONE

Hondo
Hondo, learn how to read first then I will answer you.

I think (A) bridge isnt plural is it?
Just like I thought another DUMBOCRAP trying to so us how STUPID they really are.

You need to find another topic to talk about on another internet and leave these things to people that know whats going on. BYE BYE IDIOT



A list of infamy
'Verschaerfte vernehmung' - 'sharpened' or 'enhanced' interrogation was used by the Gestapo. It describes a type of torture designed to leave no external marks on the body. Waterboarding was one of the methods used. After the war, verschaerfte vernehmung was declared a war crime, punishable by death.

The Burmese junta also uses waterboarding on political dissidents.

In Apartheid South Africa, waterboarding and other forms of water torture were used against members of the Apartheid resistance.

The USA now joins this list of infamy.

Why does the most powerful nation on earth, possessing the most sophisticated information gathering technology available feel compelled to resort to such a barbaric practice?

It's all in the smile
It is my understanding that torture is defined by pleasure on the administrator's part. If the "administrator" is trying to extract information to save lives...how the hell can he, with good conscious not try to do what is best. It would be unconscionable to allow lives to be lost!

Bernoldus Niemandt
Because the Most Powerful Nation on Earth are now fighting people who care less on how they destroy their enemies. Would you rather we waterboard someone or use the enemies tactics of BEHEADING them and hanging them off bridges.

This enemy thinks its doing their GODS work and nothing more or less. They could care less about The Geneva Convention. Hell just aske some POWs from my ERA (NAM) if they followed the G.C.

Its funny how the Bible says An Eye for An EYE
But people on here would rather it be our own troops eyes instead of the enemies, just so people around the World wont talk bad about us.

Breaking NEWS folks the People around the WORLD have been talking bad about us forever so I dont care what other countries think about us as long as we do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to keep this country from being Attacked again or stop the Killing of U.S. TROOPS to BARBARIANS

Are you people on here actually AMERICANS because for the sake of me I dont know why anyone would have a problem with how we survive TERRORISM.

If the Terrorist had one of your Family members and was going to BEHEAD them on ISLAMIC TV and you had a Terrorist who knew where your Family members were would you HONESTLY in your HEART say please dont torture him to find out where my Family members is because people around the WORLD might think bad of us.

If you answered YES then you obviously could care less about your LOVED ones.

My answer is Do whatever it takes to get my Family members back. SO BE IT

Dont WATERBOARD ME BRO DONT WATERBOARD ME (NOT)

A Little Reality
This is a perfect example of why libs can not be in charge of this country. First, they cant take casualties. 4000 dead in Iraq in 4 years. Perhaps todays libs would have surrendered during the first large battle of WWII when we lost that many fine men. How could they have possibly dealt with a carrier sinking or the Normandy invasion. Second, they dont know what it takes to win, and they dont think its important. They would surrender Iraq just to please their leftist base. Third, the people who do the dirty work that needs to be done are garbage to them, but they love Matt Damon playing a hit man.

Dunk the Sheik!
"It turns out that our people may actually have poured water down some innocent terrorist’s nose in an attempt to make the subject think he’s about to drown unless he tells them what they want to know. Like the plans for the next 9-11."

This is ONE reason why I could never vote for John McCain.


Could you live with yourself?
how many of us could live with ourselves if we tortured people? Close your eyes and picture another human screaming in pain as you pour boiling water on their feet or beating them or burning them. Could you really do that?

If you say yes I don't want you for a neighbor and don't tell me they did it because I too fully remember people jumping from a burning building to death because they couldnt stand the heat of the flames after the attacks. However I am better then those that did that (two wrongs dont make a right) and most of the people we capture dont rise to the the level of the planners that know about stuff like 9/11.

I am glad I will never be a part of such an action. Since I Carry a weapon (or two or three)every day in Iraq and this is my 5th deployment to a hostile place (also did Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq before)i am fully prepared to engage enemy combatents of the terrorist or other kind. But once they are captured I just can't condone torture.

Like I said in other columns for me Waterboarding is a grey area. It is not allowed to miltiary and I agree with that. I have been to our detainee holding areas in Iraq and they are very effective in interogating without it. (email me if you doubt me and I will send a pic standing in front of the area).

Waterboarding is a technique that works and in some situations it might be needed, like the Kalid interogations referenced above. It is not the same as the other tortures i mentioned above.

I hope we never need to use an atomic weapon but if we do need to then we must havee the will to do it, but it must be approved at the highest levels and stictly controlled. I feel the same about waterboarding. lets hope it is never needed again but if it is lets make sure we have the national will to use it but also have the will not to let it get out of control.
Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Whats the diffrence?
Put a side your personal feeling for a second.

Whats the difference between information gained from.

a. Giving a cookie to someone being interrogated.

b. Waterboarding

The answer is obvious. The information is the same and needs to be treated as such. Is the person not going to lie and mislead about upcoming operation because you smiled at him and gave him a big cookie?

The only difference between a and b is how quickly you get the information. When talking about preventing and disrupting enemy OPS. Time is critical.

Good D A Y

No compassion
No compassion ever for terrorists. The Islamic barbarians violate every precept of the Geneva Convention, not to mention basic humanity. At best, they are murderous devils -- waterboard them, torture them, who cares? Insensate beasts deserve no more regard than a cockroach crushed under one's foot.

Free Ramos and Compean
I love CO2, it's a gas
Monkey was a Darwin's uncle

A little honesty is requested
Is there no situation were you wouldn't use even minimal amount of torture?

I know the ticking time bomb thing is a little silly, being that we are here in the U.S., but once you get over to the Middle East it rapidly becomes less silly and more about life and death. Not just your life either but friends co-workers or even family if your from there.

I think we would all prefer that people would just tell us what we need to know to protect innocent lives without resorting to excessive means to get information.

Sense we don't live in a world like that. If you have some one in custody that you know likely has information you can use to stop innocent lives from being lost. Do you choose not to use the methods at your disposal?

How far would you go before you know you can live with yourself If people die that you know you may have been able to save?

Definition
Drowning is death caused by suffocation when a liquid causes interruption of the body's absorption of oxygen from the air leading to asphyxia...

So waterboarding is not drowning.

Success of waterboarding
All of the reports regarding the success of waterboarding eminate from the same gov't that is defending the practice.

to Knight Who Said Ni
Exactly.

Comment on Waterboarding
All of my fellow aviators got this treatment when first entering the fleet, to give us real world training. Almost all of us "broke". It is a techinque with real value.
The effort to attach these cutthroat killers to the protections of the "Geneva Convention" is a laugh. These killers are not soldiers! Their torture chambers have been discovered and have revealed exactly what they're about.
I would implore all Americans not to tie the hands of those who work so hard in our defense, and to remove their tools. Too much handwringing over how we are percieved in the world will get us killed!

Why, k_o_b, have you converted?
knight_of_baawa writes: "...but your bloodlust to torture and murder those of the 'wrong religion' is certainly not what jesus taught, is it?"

Have you converted to Christianity, knight? If so, welcome! I encourage you in your new-found faith to dive into the New Testament. Start with the Gospel of John and work your way through the epistles. May God bless you as you set out to learn more about Him!

of course waterboarding works.
Greenberger's article is a bit of an embarrassment. It is doubtful that anyone who actually cares about the truth of waterboarding would claim that we stopped using it because it doesn't work if you know we won't actually try to kill you. As exF14pilot notes, it works even during the training sessions on our own people, and they can be pretty confident we aren't actually trying to kill them.

But works is a funny concept here. There does not seem to be any evidence that waterboarding works, if by works we means gets as useful true information that we could not get in other ways. But if it means to get lots of information, true or not, quickly, then I don't think anyone would deny it works. If you want someone to confess whether they are guilty or not, then of course waterboarding works. If you want someone to tell you what you already believe, then waterboarding (and torture in general, there is no reason to make an artificial distinction here) works.

Torture got us the information that Hussein was involved in training al qaeda. It got us the information that Padilla was leading a dirty bomb plot against the US. Neither of these things were true. But without torture, it is unlikely that we would have gotten these things. And since we wanted to get these things, torture worked for us.

torture is immoral
waterboarding is banned by the U.S. military so all of you who are for it, please explain why that is so.

as a Christian there is no way i can support any form of torture as it goes against the dignity and sanctity of life.


biblical ideas on torture
Luke 6.27-31: But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek,
offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.
Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them
again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.”
Jesus turns on its head the Old Testament guide to punishment, “An eye for an eye and tooth for
a tooth” (Exod 21.24; Lev 24:20; Deut 19.21), which was intended to control the severity of
response to a wrong. Instead, Jesus requires proactive action that demonstrates God’s love for
us, God’s forgiveness as shown to us by Jesus, God’s invitation to and welcoming of the sinner.
Note that Jesus’ command to “Love your enemies” expands into three additional general
mandates, “... do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who
abuse you.” Further, the paragraph ends with one additional general instruction, “Do to others as
you would have them do to you.” These overarching directives all contain the plural “you,” an
option provided by the Greek language that we don’t have in English. They point all followers
of Jesus to actions that reflect God’s action toward us. We are not invited to ignore, to “use our
words instead of our fists,” to self-righteously dismiss the one who hates, curses or abuses us.
Instead, Jesus commands us to return good, to bless, and to pray for this “enemy.” Observing the
golden rule would require us knowing how we would like others to treat us, and how that is
22
shaped by knowing we are all made in God’s image, and all children of the living God. Would
that we could say for us and for our enemies what such treatment would be and why.

Whether waterboarding is torture
continues to be debated as is clear from all the comments.

My question is: if we cease this terrible,bloody, maiming, inhumane feat, what have we gained? It seems to me the terrorists will continue beheading, pulling toenails and using electrical shock on the genitals. Is it that they will like us better even though they keep doing what they are doing?

Oh, I know. The hold world will like us better while our soldiers are killed and potentially, our cities and bridges are blown up,

religiouslib
I'm not speaking in defense of torture, but you're quoting those Bible verses more than a little out of context. Jesus was talking about personal relationships, not issues of national security. You almost seem to be advocating "peace at any price."

ken
did not mean to imply that.

just trying to establish the fact that there is no biblical justification for torture under any circumstances.

you cannot be pro-life (as i am) and be pro-torture.

it is one thing to kill in a morrally just war quite another to rob a human being of thier God given right to dignity.

religouslib
So the moral of the story is that Jesus is DEAD.

Honor thy enemy, what if thy enemy has cut off your HEAD then how does ONE honor thy enemy become realistic.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. So do I go and BEHEAD them FIRST or after they have BEHEADED ME FIRST.

Im a christian but Im an ALIVE christian. My enemy doesnt want me alive he wants me DEAD so how do I honor MY ENEMY if he wants me DEAD.

'night, 'night, bowwow: lib/lefty mush
'night, 'night, bowwow: the mad dog Mohammedans, and you are right, that is the wrong 'religion,' are already doing everything they can to the prisoners the catch wherever they are from, the waterboarding is not going to illuminate them into using new, untried methods of torture. You are completely naive about that.

The mad dog Mohammedans caught on the field of battle should be routinely submitted to torture and it should not be advertised.

religiouslib
I hate to see the Sermon on the Mount so abused.

Jesus was not instructing the multitudes there. He was instructing his disciples how to deal with those who disagreed with the teaching he called them to do.

Teaching and survival are very different things.

"Morality" and Torture....
Is self defense or the defense of others Immoral? I find it incomprehensible to advocate that so-called torture of terrorists is immoral when compared to the true torture we know terrorists have and do inflict, not for information to save lives, but for the pure amusement of it.

I see interrogation techniques, such as water boarding, as one of the tools of defense. It might not be needed but should be used if necessary to save lives. Saving lives is to me a moral cause and not saving lives in order to claim morality is hypocritical at best and murder at worst.

Excellent article, so close to perfect
Except for:
> Once the head of the CIA’s clandestine service at the time these tapes were destroyed is properly reamed out by a congressional investigating committee, or even put in jail <

NO way he should be put in jail. Or even publicly censored. Laws may be ingnored when saving innocent lives, or for some other major moral reason. It was against the law to hide Jews in Germany ... should those people have been sent to jail prior to receiving their due accolades?



> His practical experience has shown him that techniques like waterboarding do not work. <

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" have been used for centuries, so *obviously they work*. Otherwise they wouldn't be used.

stick to the facts - get a clue
"since the war (WW2 that is - the real one)"

is the comment of a fact-deprived or delusional mind. There have been many wars since WW2. There are at any time around the world a number of wars going on. If you are talking about only the USA, there have been a number of wars since WW2 - some even have names like "Vietnam War" and "Korean War." Then there were others that were so quick they never got the "war" tag: Invasion of Grenada and Panama. There were many action around the world in the proxy-wars of the Cold War. For those not educationally challenged, this is nothing new in the history of the world: most "wars" have been undeclared and many are small, short affairs.

OTOH, the "war on drugs," "the war on poverty," and such are politics.

Try using the "duck" rule: If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If people are point weapons at you, shooting at you, and dropping things on you, it's probably a war. KIAs in "undeclared" wars are just as dead.

This is related to the "Identify Friend or Foe by Gun Tube Orientation" method. People who point guns at you, even if not (yet) shooting at you are probably not your Friend.

lib
Your argument is hollow.
For the umpteenth time, water-boarding IS NOT torture!

And for you citing Japanese war crimes: the water torture used by the Japanese in WWII was a far cry from water boarding. What it entailed was immobilizing the person's head, inserting a hose into the mouth, holding it tightly and turning on the water supply with force.

Finally, you, who calls attention to meaningless spelling errors in order to avoid discussing the obvious strength of his argument and the weakness of your own, just show yourself to be a jerk of the first order.

oneeye
re: comment to relitiouslib at 11:59am.

Not even that. He was instructing his captive people about getting along with the conquerer/occupier. Every example He gives, eg., begin forced to carry a burden a mile (so carry it 2 miles is the instruction I remember) is service that any Roman could demand of a Jew. It's how Simon of Cyrene ended up helping Jesus carry the cross: the Roman guards put him to work.

chuck
I hate to get into the internal theological debates. But the Golden Rule does not so do onto others as they want to do unto you. It says do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What other people would actually do unto you does not enter into it. So unless you want other people to torture you, you can't actually use the golden rule to justify torture.

(Kant's ethics starts in part with the worry that there may be people out there who actually like being tortured, and so his ethics is an attempt to make the Golden Rule more objective. But that is a side point here.)

And in general it is true that the teachings of the gospels are radical doctrines which makes most sense if one believes that there is an afterlife that is more important than this life. But since that is the teachings of Christianity, that part should not be surprising.

bowwow: explanation of mad dogs
g'night, bowwow: Let's get informed about the mad dog religion by reading George Weigel's newest book, which focuses on theological roots of Islamic terrorism and gives possible solutions. The internal struggle within Islam over how it interacts with the modern world has spilled out onto the world stage over the last few years with sometimes disastrous consequences. The book is "Faith, Reason, and the War Against Jihadism".

Hondo
Your selective quoting of the Geneva Convention does not come close to what a presume the point you are failing to make is: the prisoners captured in the "war on terror" in Iraq or anywhere else DO NOT fall under the rules of the Geneva Convention. Of course, quoting more of the GC would make that perfectly clear to anyone, which I presume is what you are doing in attempting to mis-represent the Geneva Convention.

The actual truth of the matter is that we can take the prisoner at Gitmo and anywhere we happen to have them and shoot them at any time we decide. Combatants not in uniform and not in the service of a coutry's armed forces, whether regular or militia, are not afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention. (Non-signatories also are not protected, btw.) "Out of Uniform" soldiers for centuries, including since the Geneva Convention, when captured have been shot or hanged.

The Golden Rule...
as it applies to those who are out to get you:
Do unto others before they do it unto you.

Lon
So if I love them and they BEHEAD me how does the statement do unto others as you would have them do unto you if you are DEAD. I think I would have to be alive for that to become true.

We know the enemy likes to BEHEAD their enemy so
where do I go if I abide by that rule.

DEAD is DEAD I dont care what rule you follow.

also regarding the Geneva Convention
I would also like to point out to those who worry that our enemies will not be nice to our POWs: I can't think of a single instance when our enemies DID abide by the Geneva Convention in treatment of OUR prisoners! In Vietnam and Korea, some of our people were sent to China and the Soviet Union and we never even got them back ...

The current foes in the Middle East think torture, rape, beheading, and such activities that they do to our people are ok for them. We should worry what world opinion thinks if we scare prisoners without even injuring them? Why?

"Don't Swirl Me, Bro!"
Whiny babies on the Left are pretending to be shocked, shocked(!) about anything this administration does.

In fact, there has been for several years now, a jackel-like yammering that sets off from that quarter, at any incident that they feel can use to turn public opinion to their side.

Natural disasters, for example, have for some not-so-mysterious reason been attributed to the President of the United States. Of course none of these same useful idiots use the Northridge Earthquake on the Clinton administration, even though the entire City of Los Angeles was crippled for many months, and all he did was ride around the city in a limo, take some photos, and go home.

So it is with a great deal of skepticism that I listen to the Leftie whining about Swirlie Boarding as torture.

Swirlie Boarding is no more torture than the MSM making me listen to the Senior Blowhard from Massa-two-$hits yelling "QUAG-mire!" over and over until I was ready to hurl.

Our enemies hear Americans arguing
about Swirlie Boarding and laugh.

As others here have pointed out, instead of swirling your head in a makeshift urinal, the terrorists would actually cut it off! Not in just one quick chop, but in a drawn out sawing motion so their victim can feel all the pain and horror as they die. And all the while, they chant, and later they post your cruel death on the internet.

We only wish our enemies would give our guys a swirlie instead.

Tinsldr2
Thank you for that well written post. I respect you for your clearheadedness, as well as your compassion.

I'm afraid I'm not quite as prone to compassion for individuals who do their best to convince others to blow themselves up to get some news. Who cut off the heads of our soldiers and civilians. Who plan any kind of attack they can think of regardless of the toll on uninvolved bystanders, or in fact, targeting those innocents. I support the use of techniques that many would consider torture in cases where the individual has committed grave crimes against us, and is highly likely to have valuable intel that could likely save lives.

I certainly believe that those who go after Americans doing their best to protect this country, are unpatriotic, and in some cases, treasonous. The idea that we are possibly going to prosecute the person who ordered the destruction of the CIA interrogation tapes is ludicrous. Was it illegal to destroy them? Were they requested to be held by anyone with jurisdiction? If we as a country decide that the decision was wrong, and the tapes should have not been destroyed, than simply make a policy to that effect pertaining to all future interrogations.

One other thing, those of you claiming that water boarding doesn't work, and that our government is lying to us, are essentially saying that a large group of people are conspiring to maintain the right to torture people for the simple reason that they enjoy it. If you disagree with my statement, then what other reason would they have to defend the practice, if not this or that it works?

Chuck
You asked, "So if I love them and they BEHEAD me how does the statement do unto others as you would have them do unto you if you are DEAD. I think I would have to be alive for that to become true.

We know the enemy likes to BEHEAD their enemy so
where do I go if I abide by that rule."

If Christianity is right, you go to heaven (Although you have to abide by that rule more than just the once).

The Army should not waterboard!
The Army does not have the proper equipment for waterboarding.
Our Navy should do the waterboarding from booms.
The Army can't put sharks in that little bucket!

retired military on torture
This is a defining issue for America. We urge you to support the adoption of Section 327 of the Conference Report and thereby send a clear message - to U.S. personnel and to the world - that the United States will not engage in or condone the abuse of prisoners and will honor its commitments to uphold the Geneva Conventions.

Sincerely,

General Joseph Hoar, USMC (Ret.)
General Paul J. Kern, USA (Ret.)
General Charles Krulak, USMC (Ret.)
General David M. Maddox, USA (Ret.)
General Merrill A. McPeak, USAF (Ret.)
Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn, USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Donald L. Kerrick, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni Jr., USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Charles Otstott, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Harry E. Soyster, USA (Ret.)
Major General Paul Eaton, USA (Ret.)
Major General Eugene Fox, USA (Ret.)
Major General John L. Fugh, USA (Ret.)
Rear Admiral Don Guter, USN (Ret.)
Major General Fred E. Haynes, USMC (Ret.)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, USN (Ret.)
Major General Melvyn Montano, ANG (Ret.)
Major General Gerald T. Sajer, USA (Ret.)
Major General Antonio 'Tony' M. Taguba, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, USMC (Ret.)
Brigadier General James P. Cullen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David R. Irvine, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General John H. Johns, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Richard O'Meara, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Murray G. Sagsveen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Anthony Verrengia, USAF (Ret.)
Brigadier General Stephen N. Xenakis, USA (Ret.)



religiouslib
HOW MANY TIMES do you need to be told that Terrorists have no rights under the Geneva Accords?

I think you know this and are just trying to be a nuisance!

An Alternate question
How many of you could drug an innocent man, woman or child unconcious, then strap them to a cold hard table under harsh lighting, with your fellows looking on, take out a sharpened blade and carve into them as if they were nothing more than a Christmas Turkey? How many of you could do this, not for patriotism, or self-defense, but for no better reason than simple greed?

Just how many of you people could be doctors?

"how many of us could live with ourselves if we tortured people? Close your eyes and picture another human screaming in pain as you pour boiling water on their feet or beating them or burning them. Could you really do that?"

If I were convinced that the person being tortured was not-my-people, and that the knowledge gained thereby would help the well-being of my-people, especially their safety, my conscience wouldn't bother me at all.

Yes, I'm an anti-moslem bigot. I'm an anti-satanist bigot, an anti-communist bigot, and a bigot against every similar sick philosophy that may pose a threat to my-people.

Staying alive, healthy and happy is a very simple formula: don't threaten my-people. Once you do that, you've already violated the only rule that matters.

Btw, How many American officers were tried for "war crimes" after WWII? The very idea of the winners of a war conducting "war crimes" tribunals is hilariously ghoulish.

We will not win this war by show our monstrous enemies how much nicer than them we are. We will only win it by showing them that we are so monstrous we find their horrors amusing by comparison. We can save our sympathy and compassion for our own people.


stick to the facts - time to change name


stick to the facts why don't you writes: “Goddamn it! Why don't they just use pliers like the good old days? Or smash them to pieces like those good old CIA guys did in Lebanon leading to the CIA guidance in 1983 against using torture”


Easy there, don’t get your bloomers all in a bunch, I don't want you to hyperventilate. Just take a deep breath, exhale slowly, and try saying “serenity now”…



~~~



stick to the facts why don't you writes: “The USA, in the good old days used to be regarded as leader of the free world because it had standards of democracy and individual liberty.”


No, back in the “good old days”, just as now, we are regarded as the leader of the free world because of our military might. All the rest of your sentimental nostalgia is just PC horse-hockey ;-)


The USA used to have a certain moral authority as well, back “in the good old days” when the majority of American citizens didn’t just pay lip-service to God’s Word, they actually said “NO” to gratuitous public sexual displays (movies, TV, magazines, etc.), the immorality of homosexual conduct was rightly and publicly condemned as the sin that it is, “shacking up”, pornography and recreational drug use were shameful things, and cursing and swearing was not commonplace among respectable men, much less among women and children, etc., etc.


We could go on and on about the moral decline of our nation (btw, are you an American, or are you just throwing stones from the balcony of your glass house?), but suffice it to say that our nation as become a moral cesspool, and that is a far greater cause for radical Islamic hatred toward the U.S. than strapping a couple of mass-murderers to a board and giving them a much-needed bath.


This is the world we live in?
"They may even have mistreated some real innocents, for identities do have a way of getting confused in wartime — just ask anybody who’s ever been subjected to “friendly” fire. This is the nature of the world in which we live. Let’s not pretend that the choices to be made in fighting this war or any other are simple. "

Is he honestly saying that its ok we're torturing innocent people? Seriously? How is that a conservative viewpoint?

Lon
Are you telling me that I have to be BEHEADED more than once. Because if Im DEAD that sounds pretty hard to abide by that rule.

Ill take heaven If that will keep me from being BEHEADED.

I am a Christian but Im not what you would call a Bible Thumper as I have heard Christians called before. I believe that all people have faults and people WRITE books so I dont believe evrything I read in Books. To Err is human and HUMANS are the ones writing books so are you to say that every word in the BIBLE is true.

stick to the facts - Part 2


stick to the facts why don't you writes: “All that Bush, with the support of people like you have done is waste the valuable moral capital that the USA had built up since the war (WW2 that is - the real one).”


No, you’re wrong again. The moral decline of the United States began with the “Worst Generation”, you know, the children of the generation that is sometimes called the “Greatest Generation”, the WWII generation. I do not mean to suggest that ALL “baby-boomers” are responsible for the moral decay of our country, there have been many who have fought hard to stem the tide, but far too many of that generation have embraced the “morality and values” represented most ably by people like Bill Clinton, and far too many others stood by in silence, allowing it to happen.


I don’t know if the next generation will be any better, but I am hopeful that God will reserve judgment against our country until this generation’s turn at leadership is past.



~~~



stick to the facts why don't you writes: “Now the US is regarded is a bullying tyrant in many areas in the world and only pays lip service to ideas of democracy and liberty to people outside the US.”


Are we now to presume that you are the spokesperson for these “many areas in the world”? Or are you just bloviating?


I suspect you’re believing far too much of the Leftist press, both here and abroad.



~~~



stick to the facts why don't you writes: “Personally it makes me sad as great presidents such as Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower laid the basis of international law which was the model for the world until you tossers screwed it up.”


It doesn’t make you “sad”, that’s just a shameless and transparent rhetorical ploy to attribute shame to those with whom you disagree.


Take a good long look in the mirror; it doesn't lie.



stick to the facts - Part 3


stick to the facts why don't you writes: “We only have a the word of people who have a vested interest in saying torture works to justify their illegal actions in torturing people.”


That lie so absurd it’s remarkable you would try to tell it here. We don’t need the “word” of anyone to know that torture is effective in eliciting information from people. Information gained from torture certainly needs to be verified to find out if it is true or false, but that can’t be determined until after the information is received.


But that’s beside the point, because “waterboarding” is NOT torture simply because you want it to be, in order to prevent us from using it. Saying it (over and over again) doesn’t make it so.


Furthermore, until or unless you offer some OTHER effective and timely means of obtaining information from people who may be planning the nuclear annihilation of an American city, something *even more humane* than 45 seconds of temporary discomfort (which they can stop at any time by answering the questions), your argument has no credibility.


And by extension, neither do you.


You’re just whining and complaining; you don’t bring any solutions to the table.


In the words of Samuel Adams of Massachusetts, in 1776:

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then ask yourself, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices? Are we just to do nothing? To allow the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the Earth?' I detest any submission to a people who have either ceased to be human, or have not virtue enough to feel their own wretchedness.

If ye love comfort better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, [then] go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands of your master. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"


jdw
Your 1:54 post said it all and very well!

stick to the facts - Part 4


stick to the facts writes: “The CIA, following the incident referred to above in Lebanon came to the conclusion that torture does not work and in fact was often counter-productive and lost valuable information.”


Politics and political correctness. Convenient for your argument, but politics (and PC) nonetheless.



~~~



stick to the facts: “To the pillock above who said the japanese guy was not done for waterboarding, just water torture on POWs - presumably he would have made the same distinction in relation to torture agaisnt american POWs in 1945.”


I didn’t say any such thing, so again, when calling others “pillocks”, take a good long look in the mirror (and don’t forget to turn the light on ;-)


KOB was making another of his infamously poor arguments, and he likes to play fast-and-loose with whatever he thinks he can get away with. His reputation on this forum precedes him by a wide margin and speaks for itself, so I won’t say more about it here.

KOB asserted that Mr. Asano was “prosecuted after WW2 for waterboarding. That's a fact.”


KOB was wrong. According to UC Berkeley War Crimes Studies Center, Mr. Asano was prosecuted for:

1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.


The “specifications” included: “beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward”


Mr. Asano would have been prosecuted whether he used “water torture” (undefined) or not, and we can be certain that he was guilty of far more than he was charged with if he was actually prosecuted; only the most egregious offenders and those who had incontrovertible evidence against them were tried. Thousands of soldiers (both German and Japanese) who were guilty of war crimes were never brought to justice, but they will answer for their actions on Judgment Day, as will we all.


stick to the facts - Part 5


stick to the facts why don't you writes: “That is exactly the reason that Rooselvelt initially, and then Truman, forced Churchill to agree to international laws about torture and conduct of war. Torture is always torture, blurring of lines may come back to bite you later.”


I do not advocate torture, and your continuing assertion that “waterboarding” is torture does not make it so, anymore than if you continually asserted that making them sit in an uncomfortable room and being given less-than-delicious (but nutritionally adequate) food was torture. You can say it over and over again, but that won’t make it so.

You can say the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but that doesn’t make it so either.


But for sake of argument, even if we did actually “torture” people (for example, in the ways that they actually torture our soldiers), who would that “come back to bite” us “later”? They’re *already* torturing anybody they can get their hands on; your warnings against “torture” in hopes of preventing the enemy from engaging in similar activity is irrelevant; that bird has flown (and grew old, and died).



~~~



stick to the facts why don't you writes: “As a matter of interest, if the US goes to war agaisnt Iran, say, would Gonzalez distinction be reliable by Iran agaisnt US soldiers.”


What’s your major malfunction, Private Pyle?


“As a matter of interest”, do you really think the Iranian government (or their military field commanders) are playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules?


Do you really think they’re going to consult Alberto Gonzalez and pour over the minutia of his obtuse legalisms in order to determine how they will treat our soldiers if any are captured?


Are you a crack-head?


What planet are you from?



stick to the facts - Part 6 of 6


stick to the facts why don't you writes: “Luckily for the US the rest of the world would say no - hopefully your next administration will agree and save everyone embarrassment.”


Contrary to your apparent fantasies and delusions of grandeur, you don’t speak for rest of the world; unless you’ve been elected to some position not yet divulged, you just speak for yourself


Luckily for you (and everyone else), you don’t have to make the decision to “say no”. At this point, if you’re not willing to help (which is clearly evident), then many of us would just be grateful if you would hold our soldier’s coats while they do all the hard work.


And if your delicate “sensibilities” are “embarrassed” by what is necessary to defend ourselves and prevail against the murderous animals who have hijacked the Islamic religion, then once again, in the words of Samuel Adams:


“We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands of your master. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"



chuck
I'm not telling you that you have to do anything. I am just saying that if you want to abide by the Golden Rule you need to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and not that you should do unto others as they would want to do to you.

Fortunately this is not a Christian nation in any legal sense so there is not even any reason you should have to abide by the Golden rule.

The Golden Rule may well be the wrong way to deal with beheading, but that does not mean we should torture the Golden rule.

The rack
I think we should bring back the rack, it was notoriously effective at illiciting confessions during the Spanish Inquisition. Think of all the terrorism we could prevent!

Or the Iron Maiden? That looks effective.

Actually, we should just start cutting off fingers until the terrorists talk, that would break me. Start with the fingers, then toes, then arms, then legs, then eyes. But leave the ears so the terrorists could hear the cries from every women and child as they gazed at his hideousness.

Or maybe hot poker in the eye. I mean, you've got two eyes, if you melted one, you know the terrorist would crack before you blinded them.

hondo the librarian?
other than grammar, what is your expertise. walt seems to have a LOT of expertise in the field.

how about you?


windycityeagle
agreed

and i think all these torture chambers should be televised so americans can see how this great country is keeping us safe and how much information we get from these people.

if it is moral and acceptable lets do it on TV.

Religiouslib
Since no one else replied to this obviously Inane statement, I felt it had to be done.

religiouslib writes: ""just trying to establish the fact that there is no biblical justification for torture under any circumstances.
you cannot be pro-life (as i am) and be pro-torture.
it is one thing to kill in a morrally just war quite another to rob a human being of thier God given right to dignity."

So now we have to protect the DIGNITY of a crazed jihadist who wants nothing more than to kill as many americans as possible so he can get his 72 virgins???

How much dignity did they allow Daniel Pearl to have?? And he was armed with nothing more than a notebook!!!

For all the weenies crying that "Waterboarding is Drowning!" I have one thing to say.

You Can NOT drown in 45 seconds!!!!

The reports state that KSM lasted a "Record 45 seconds"!
let me repeat that Forty Five Seconds!!!!

An asthmatic can last more than 45 seconds without oxygen, so how could 45 seconds with some water up KSM's nose possibly DROWN him???

Your arguments are specious and unworthy of being considered intelligent argument.

I suffered worse "Torture" than that in my 4 years on my High school swim team!

Of course, we all know the underlying reason behind most lefties' arguments on the subject. They can't stand to see the USA succeed at anything as long as an "Evil Republican" is in the white house.

They want slick willy back, he only "waterboards" interns' dresses.


@religiouslib
Ken is absolutely right. Your taking Jesus' words out of context is contemptible.

Secondly, even if He did talk about torture, WE are not talking about that. We are talking about waterboarding, which is a form of a psychological information extraction not torture. There is no physical harm done to the person.

Let's analogize for a moment. Let's say that the CIA had some technique for holding a terrorist they had caught out over a 500' deep chasm. They threaten to let go of the terrorist if he doesn't tell them what they want to know. The guy is psychologically terrified of heights so this works. He tells them what they want to know and he is put back in his cell. This also works for people who have claustrophobia. Put them in a small enough space and most people will break, even though NOTHING has been done to them except scare the crap out of them.

This is the same for waterboarding except that it is even faster and more rewarding. It literally feels like you are drowning and even though you know that you will NOT drown, it doesn't make any difference. This technique is powerful because it works on an instinctual level rather than on higher brain function.

As for the person who said that it doesn't work because people will say anything to keep from being waterboarded; you don't seem to understand how this works. Intelligence officers often have some information that the terrorist does not know they have. If the terrorist lies, they tell them they know and they keep waterboarding. They can also go and verify the information. If it is found to be untrue, they go back and waterboard some more.

As chuck said, if it didn't work, we wouldn't be using it. The fact is, it is one of the fastest and most effective forms of information extraction that we have that does not physically harm the terrorist.

Listening to a Hillary Clinton speech is a close second.

WCEagle
Oh yes, the slippery slope argument!! Excellently done. If I were trying to obtain answers from a terrorist through simulated drowning, unsuccessfully, it's obvious that the next logical step is the rack, and cutting off fingers. Those techniques fit very well with all of the other techniques in question; slightly cold temperatures, irregular sleep periods, less food than asked for and the like.

We are such monsters in your eyes, eh? We give them the opportunity for exercise, fresh air, to practice their religion. All despite in nearly all cases, being caught firing on us, trying to blow us up, or in some other way actively trying to kill us or their own people. Heaven forbid if we take one of the worst, and higher level ones who we have a strong suspicion could save lives, and encourage them to share that extremely valuable information. As Scott asked, what alternate, effective methods would you suggest?

BTW, the humorous reference in the midst of an otherwise very serious subject seems highly inappropriate.

Tickling their feet?
Is THIS what the "anti-waterboarding crowd" thinks we should do when extracting valuable info
on OUR ENEMIES?---TICKLE THEIR FEET? What do THEY think, we should just "ask them"? How utterly stupid. Shouldn't this same crowd have been up in arms about what was done to Daniel Pearl and several others-CUTTING OFF THEIR HEADS-
HANGING SOLDIERS FROM BRIDGES-DRAGGING SOLDIERS THROUGH THE STREETS- TREATING THEIR WOMEN LIKE DOGS, THAT THEY BELIEVE THEM TO BE LESS THAN-

AREN'T THESE DEEDS TORTUROUS? Not, I guess to the "turn the other cheek crowd"...Ridiculous.
If the worst thing is some water being poured over them to extract info to save others' lives of which these barbarians care less about-I'm ALL
FOR IT, AND MOREOVER, I WOULDN'T CARE WHAT WE HAD
TO DO TO THEM IN RETURN FOR INFORMATION THAT WOULD BE BROUGHT FORTH.
Oh, I know the old arguments-"We cannot be like them"....riiiiggggttttt. WE ARE NOT-waterboarding or whatever else is done, is a hellava lot more humane than ANYTHING THESE ANIMALS(AND MANY IN THE PAST HAVE DONE TO OUR OWN SOLDIERS WORLDWIDE) HAVE DONE, and they do believe in "an eye for an eye, don't they"? so
UNTIL the wimps in this country can come up with
their "tickle the feet as torture b.s.-GET OFF IT
WILL YOU-WATERBOARDING IS THE MOST HUMANE OF ANY OF WHAT THESE ANIMALS HAVE DONE-AND no-it does NOT "make us, just like them".

knight of baawa
Even if the CIA agents were doing waterboarding, what could we do about it?

Fire them?

ReligiousLib
Here is the Bible's guide to torture.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/09/bibles-guid e-to-torture.html

But the ultimate torture is hell. If hell is justified, anything is permissible.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11

Religiouslib
Ecclesiates 3:1 There is a time for 'everything' and a season for every activity under the sun.
3:3 A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
3:8 A time to love and a time to 'hate', a time for 'war' and a time for peace.
Ezekial 33:6 If the watchman sees the sword coming and does not warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.

The old Testament is just as valid as the new. Ezekial was written for today (chapter 37 speaks of Israels regathering after long exile in last generation)

God is the same and changes not. Clearly, from these verses it shows God expects accountability, he expects there will be enemies to his people, he expects his people to fight fearlessly, he acknowledged there is a time for war, and does not agree with peace at any price. He expects his people to apply wisdom, look for the sword that threatens, inform others of the danger, and save their own lives. He expects us to hate evil. (What does rightousness have to do with unrightousness?...the two cannot walk together....Come out an be ye seperate)

When Jesus was talking to his disciples about loving their enemies, he understood a root of bitterness grew in them from Roman rule. He was teaching them how to let the hate go and how to get along in captivity.

Torture
Thank god you people arn't in charge of our military!

You who are squeamish about torture;
You must be aware of the Muslim torture rooms they found?
You should also be aware that every captive our enemy kills is found to have been tortured and dismembered alive?

Radicals believe they will receive a pleasure in heaven for every pain they cause an unbeliever and higher stature for killing Infidels.
Information is not the object of that torture and no amount of information will end the pain or prevent the dismemberment.
They are blinded & dismembered alive because Radicals believe that is the way the Infidel will then enter the after world as a blind cripple.

If any of you Infidels who are begotten by the mating of pigs & apes think being nice to Radicals will change their religious belief please feel free to go there and test your theory but do not ask others who do not share your belief to share the consequence!

Open letter
I have just posted a copy of my "Open Letter to an Interrogator" on my blog.

[http://pentagrams.townhall.com/g/dd270c11-3879-405f-a284-b950642a8948]

Sick and tired . . .
Does anyone left of center really believe that Islamic Fanaticism only wants us to play fair and then they'll leave us alone? That makes as much sense as making your case that non-lethal liquid methods of extracting information from combatants should be classified as torture because it may leave emotional scars on people sworn to kill women, children and soldiers in the name of their god without the mercy you so desire from our troops and intelligence officers.

"It doesn't work." Neither was the Surge until a certain threshold was met by our forces and things started turning around. But the same evidence the Left provided in the past 6 years of the Iraq campaign "not working" with the "it'll never work" rationale is now proving to be false. Platitudes don't win wars but they sure can lose them by feeding the enemy with "useful idiot" provided propaganda, like it or not.

All those that are against
waterboarding please state just how you would get information from these "choir boys"?

Waterboarding Was Not Illegal Anywhere
Waterboarding, as the author says, was a tool of fooling a suspect that they were being tortured. It is similar to tear-gas, it scares people into submission, but no harm is done. In military basic training, tear-gas is used liberally to acustom troops to such false fears. Waterboarding has been used in advance training for the same purpose. We do not torture our own troops.

As the author states, waterboarding only works if the subject is ignorant of its non-lethal results.

Now, it has become illegal in some countries as a political response, but not because it was torture -- only because it was precieved as torture and to many perception is reality.

O that's cute
televise all the medieval tortures to get the American people to understand just how eeevil we are to, waterboard people who want to destroy our civilization. I'm betting that everyone of you sanctimonious holier than thou's haven't one problem with real American torture that goes on daily, in every state and almost every city and town since January 22, 1973. Suction abortion, saline abortion, partial birth abortion..o that's a real goody (and quite profitable)..induce labor, turn the baby (ooh did I call it a baaby? Silly me, I meant an inconvenience) insert scissors as it kicks and squirms in REAL pain, cut into the skull, insert
suction tube, suck brains out. That doesn't bother you at all does it because that's the liberal religion, on the altar of choice, human sacrifice. And you whine because some thugs
think they are going to drown? HYPOCRITES..don't quote scripture to me either,
because you are what Jesus said you are if you think you are Christians..Whited Sepulchres, clean on the outside, stinking on the inside. So don't you dare judge those who are defending us. I have 15 reasons, ages preborn to 22 for giving no quarter to these enemies and I don't give a rats patootie what the rest of the world thinks of us either. I want my kids and grandkids to survive in a FREE country and maybe
they will be the ones who will stop the child
sacrifice in the abortuaries. The real torture chambers of the U.S.

Torture and Waterboarding 2
4. Moral Authority/Capital - I did not mean moral authority generally as I do not think the US (or any other country, come to that) has a monopoly on moral authority. What I did mean (and perhaps Scott could do some reading) was that Churchill was against the imposition of a world legal and moral order which mean that (among other things) countries and individuals could be prosecuted for torture (apart from the Germans). Roosevelt basically strong-armed him into accepting that that was the way it should be (in 1943 - I am doing this from memory) and so it was for the next 50 years or so. As such, certainly among international politicians, lawyers, soldiers, etc the US, had a certain amount of moral authority and capital. I am not overstating the effect of this - I am just saying there were people in the rest of the world, including non-western countries who expected the US to provide a lead in human rights, rule of law, etc having provided that lead earlier for the general betterment of the post-war world.

5. CIA torture - there was an incident in the early 1980s where CIA operatives killed people by torturing them where they potentially had information on a major terrorist who is still free today as a result. The CIA issued guidabce called "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual-1983” as a result - I was referring to what this guidance was saying when I was saying that torture can be counter-productive.




Torture and waterboarding 1
1. The current US admin definition of torture is justified by an August 2002 memo from by the US Attorney-General, Alberto Gonzalez, which tried to draw a distinction between “torture“ and “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” and defined torture as “acts inflicting… severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical”.

The memo went on to state that “physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, serious bodily injury or even death.”

The international law definition is the infliction of pain and virtually no court or legal academic in the world (or US practice and procedure prior to Bush) agrees with Gonzalez unilateral re-definition. As such I am referring to the question of whether water-boarding is torture as a legal question. Perhaps it would help your open-minded analysis to consider whether a perpetrator of an alleged crime should be able to define what constitutes the elements of that crime.

2. There is no doubt that torture has worked - the problem is that it has also been counter-productive in information terms (giving anything that looks like information just to stop being tortured, etc) and also in effect generally (people thinking torture is acceptable, anger agasisn those who torture, etc.

3) Do they torture? Yes - terrorists torture, bad people torture but what the current US govt have done is to attempt in international law to legitimise torture. In other words there will always be criminals (according to things we can all say are crimes) but if one says that things previously thought to be criminal are not criminal then those who may not have considered such actions may well do thereby enlarging the possible pool of criminals. I thought the whole distinction between free democratic countries and others was abiding by the rule of law, respect for individual liberty and rights, and the moral authority that comes from those positions.

Torture and waterboarding 3
6. Playing fair - I don't know why rightists are so obsessed with believing others (liberals, lefties, intelligent people, whatever you want to call them) are incapable of knowing that there are bad people in the world and they need to be dealt with. The argument surely is how we deal with them and by what rules. I am British and a famous quote and accepted truism (I believe said by the Home Secretary who sent the troops in to northern Ireland in the late 60s) was
that "internment" was the best recruiting sergeant the IRA ever had. In other words, the abandonment of fundamental freedoms and rights and rule of law had the opposite effect in that it increased the likely amount of terrorism as those who were or felt oppressed were more inclined to express themselves through violence (and in fact it is well known that the IRA escalated actions to provoke reactions so that they could recruit more people and to undermine non-violent political opponents). We lived for 30 years with the legacy of that understandable but wrong protective action (though I accept it is difficult to predict what would have happened had other means been adopted).

I have a very simple thesis - in general jaw-jaw is better than war-war. Promoting dialogue involves a minimal amount of trust to allow one to say what one wants and have a discussion or argument, etc. Adhering to common international rules can promote the likelihood of more people wishing to have that minimal amount of trust.


Totrue and waterboarding 4
Sorry to be so verbose and to have posted my comments in the wrong order. A final point is that force should be a last resort in general but nothing I have said means that force cannot be used in the right circumstances. Before anyone pre-empts me - there are international and national rules about this as well - in large part drafted by the US and Britain as part of the post-war settlement and setting up of the UN, which in itelf was deliberately made stronger so as to decrease the chance of international governance falling apart as it had with the League of Nations.

@stick
Yes, you ARE too verbose to try to debate your points.

However, it should be said that torture does work and your point #2 above is fallacious. People only give false information ONCE. When it is found that it was false (and as I mentioned above but you ignored) intelligence officers are trained to determine if a person is lying. They ask specific questions to which they know the answer but the terrorist doesn't know they know. If the terrorist lies then they inflict more fear and trembling in the terrorist.

Also, the reason that we question "leftists" regarding their approach to evil is that most of them think that it is Bush who is evil and should be tried for murder, but are against waterboarding. This indicates that either leftists are truly stupid or they can't tell good from bad. Either way, you people have no credibility on this issue.

stick to the facts - Know your enemy.


stick to the facts writes: “As such, certainly among international politicians, lawyers, soldiers, etc the US, had a certain amount of moral authority and capital. I am not overstating the effect of this - I am just saying there were people in the rest of the world, including non-western countries who expected the US to provide a lead in human rights, rule of law, etc having provided that lead earlier for the general betterment of the post-war world.”


Your point would be applicable, if we were dealing with a European enemy.


If we were at war with England, I would expect the English to abide by the rules of war, and I would expect the same of the U.S. We have a “commonality” of background (legal, political, religious) that helps us to relate to one another.


The enemy we are facing now is not “like us”; not legally, not politically, not religiously. Worse, the enemy’s legal, political and religious “system” is all rolled into one. It teaches from childhood that anyone “not like them” is worthy of death; the more gruesome and painful the death, the more “glory” to themselves and their false god.


We cannot approach an enemy of this nature as we would our English cousins. I have common background with the English. I can reason with the English. There are things we simply WOULD NOT DO to each other; things that are *beyond the pale*.


There is historical precedence; the relationship between Germans and the Allies “in the field” was entirely different than the relationship between the Allies and the Japanese “in the field”.


With our Islamic enemy, there will be no reasoning; no “jaw-jaw”, as you put it; *nothing* is beyond the pale. Their RELIGION knows only TWO possible outcomes: assimilation or death; submit or die.


Those are your two choices with Islam.


Many Westerners refuse to acknowledge that we are at war with the RELIGION of Islam.


The enemy will exploit this weakness as long as we let them.


stick to the facts - fiddling while Rome
burns...

stick to the facts writes: “The current US admin definition of torture is justified by an August 2002 memo from by the US Attorney-General, Alberto Gonzalez, which tried to draw a distinction between “torture“ and “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” and defined torture as “acts inflicting… severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical”. The memo went on to state that “physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, serious bodily injury or even death.” The international law definition is the infliction of pain and virtually no court or legal academic in the world (or US practice and procedure prior to Bush) agrees with Gonzalez unilateral re-definition. As such I am referring to the question of whether water-boarding is torture as a legal question. Perhaps it would help your open-minded analysis to consider whether a perpetrator of an alleged crime should be able to define what constitutes the elements of that crime.”



Political correctness is one of President Bush’s greatest flaws. It blinds him to the reality of the enemy we are fighting, and it causes him to make terrible decisions. The same flaw affects Mr. Gonzalez.


You certainly seem to put a lot more credibility into whatever the current U.S. “Attorney General” says than the average American does. Washington D.C. disconnected itself from the reality of America (and reality in general) a long time ago, and it seems that anyone who goes there, even with the intent to bring it back to reality, gets sucked into the rabbit hole.


But this is a great example of what is wrong with the Western approach to the war we are in. While you and many others are dickering over politically correct legalistic minutia, the Islamic enemy has quietly invaded your entire continent. What’s the #1 most popular name of new-born baby boys in the UK this week? Is it “Mohammed” again?


stick to the facts - It's NOT torture...


stick to the facts writes: “There is no doubt that torture has worked - the problem is that it has also been counter-productive in information terms (giving anything that looks like information just to stop being tortured, etc) and also in effect generally (people thinking torture is acceptable, anger agasisn those who torture, etc.”


Certainly professional interrogators are aware of the problem of false information.


There are established procedures for cross-checking information to determine its veracity. BUT, we cannot know WHAT to check until we have something to go on.


Will mistakes be made? Certainly, they always are, humans are fallible. Can mistakes be minimized? Yes, if we’re careful. Can they be eliminated? No, nobody’s perfect.


Should we unilaterally eliminate an effective means of acquiring information, particularly from people who we are POSITIVE have information (i.e., high-value “leadership” types) vital to our survival?


If actual “torture” was even under consideration, that question would make for an interesting ethical discussion.


But waterboarding is NOT “torture”, unless you have “watered down” (pun only semi-intended) the meaning of the word “torture” to the point that it really has no meaning anymore.


When administered under controlled circumstances, the chance of either death or injury is minimal. By all reports of which I am aware, the procedure typically lasts less then one minute. It stops as soon as the subject wants it to, by agreeing to talk.


Our own troops undergo the procedure in survival training, and I’ve seen Steve Harrigan (Fox News) get waterboarded. To the best of my knowledge, waterboarding is the single-most humane yet effective way to interrogate high-value prisoners. Spill the beans and then back to your warm comfortable cell with 3 hot squares a day. Nobody gets hurt, and thousands of lives are saved as a result.


Seems like a good deal, for everyone involved.


stick to the facts - Waterboarding Club!


stick to the facts writes: “Yes - terrorists torture, bad people torture but what the current US govt have done is to attempt in international law to legitimise torture.”


Yes, this is because Bush & Co. respond to treason like lawyers at traffic court.


If the enemies of Western Civilization (I’m referring to the Left in this instance) within our government and our “mainstream” media were not busily engaged in what they facetiously call their “duty” (i.e., loving desire) to be a “watchdog” (i.e., traitor) and play games with the law (selectively, only when it’s consistent with their politics, naturally), we would not even be discussing this subject.


Bush & Co. chose the lawyerly route, the weasel route, the PC route, the cowardly route. It allows the “enemy within” (i.e., Leftists) to define the debate, and that’s a game they cannot win.


What Bush should do is confront the issue head on and challenge the Leftists openly. He could win the debate in one afternoon. Better yet, have Mrs. Bush go on national TV and say “Look, this is silly people. I’m volunteering to 'go waterboarding', just like our troops have to do, just like that news reporter did, to show all the girly-girls that this isn’t torture”.


Then, after about 15 seconds when she cries “uncle”, she would sit up and towel off, look right at the camera and smile, and say “See? Yes, I got some water up my nose, but what kind of skirt-wearin’ sissy calls this torture?” (she might word it a little differently, that’s just my suggestion)


With the right ‘PR’ campaign it could turn into an amusement park experience on par with the bungee-jump attraction.


Torture? Please, this is America, we’re likely to make a gameshow out of it (e.g., “Fear Factor”).


Steve Harrigan did it, and our soldiers do it. We’ll turn it into a national movement…


People would line up to be waterboarded so they can become members of the Waterboarding Patriots Club of America™!


stick to fact -End political correctness


stick to the facts writes: “In other words there will always be criminals (according to things we can all say are crimes) but if one says that things previously thought to be criminal are not criminal then those who may not have considered such actions may well do thereby enlarging the possible pool of criminals.”


Are you willing to apply this same principle equally to other laws? Or is it strictly selective, according to your politics?


I’m thinking specifically of abortion laws and a whole litany of laws passed for homosexuals, but we don’t need to stop there…



~~~



stick to the facts writes: “I thought the whole distinction between free democratic countries and others was abiding by the rule of law, respect for individual liberty and rights, and the moral authority that comes from those positions.”


When dealing with other men of good will, or even with men of bad will but who value their own lives enough to choose reason over suicide, I see your point.


When dealing with the real-world equivalent of the Borg, attempting to reason with our enemy IS suicide. This is what the Left either REFUSES to understand, or they DO understand and they actually WANT national suicide. I haven’t figured out which yet, maybe some of both, but the end result is the same either way.


I’m not saying we need (or should) become like our enemy in order to defeat him, but we will have to take him seriously if we expect to win, and we should start that process by bringing a swift and certain end to political correctness. Today.


Followed immediately by a cessation of playing word-games about what is (and what is not) “torture”.


stick to the facts - All of it is "Left"


stick to the facts: “Playing fair - I don't know why rightists are so obsessed with believing others (liberals, lefties, intelligent people, whatever you want to call them) are incapable of knowing that there are bad people in the world and they need to be dealt with.”


I realize Leftists know there are bad people in the world, the problem is:

1) Most Leftists don’t understand who the “bad people” are, mistakenly thinking “rightists” are the “bad guys”


2) Those few who DO recognize who the “bad people” are (Islamic fascists, and everyone who supports or enables them) offer NO realistic solutions (as in none, nada, zero, zip, zilch, nothing) to deal with the reality we are facing.


And while the Left obstructs those who try to DO something about the problem, the problem worsens. So by default, even IF it is unintentional, the Left (once again, as ALWAYS) is aiding and abetting the enemy.


It was true during the cold war (Communism), and it is just as true today in the war with Islamism. Because the Left has chosen to define itself as the enemy of the Right, whoever opposes the Right (communists, Islamists, it doesn’t seem to matter), that is who the Left always sides with.


They will deny this until they’re blue in the face of course; truth means nothing to the Left, so much so that many on the Left do not even believe in the concept of truth (absolute, objective or otherwise). For the Left, the ends justifies the means; and denying God, they are their own highest Authority. And very much like the Islamists, I am not aware of anything they will not do to prevail.


The ideology of the Left is responsible for more than 100 million deaths in the 20th century alone (Lenin, Stalin and Mao for starters). They will reflexively counter that the “Right” is just as guilty, citing the Nazis.


But the Nazis were National *Socialists*.


Socialist is to Communist as Liberal is to Leftist.


All of it is “Left”.


Welcome to it.


stick to fact - Left: willful or stupid?


stick to the facts writes: “I am British and a famous quote and accepted truism (I believe said by the Home Secretary who sent the troops in to northern Ireland in the late 60s) was that "internment" was the best recruiting sergeant the IRA ever had. In other words, the abandonment of fundamental freedoms and rights and rule of law had the opposite effect in that it increased the likely amount of terrorism as those who were or felt oppressed were more inclined to express themselves through violence (and in fact it is well known that the IRA escalated actions to provoke reactions so that they could recruit more people and to undermine non-violent political opponents).”


I am American, and there is a saying for your viewpoint.

It’s called “fighting the last war”.



~~~



stick to the facts writes: “I have a very simple thesis - in general jaw-jaw is better than war-war. Promoting dialogue involves a minimal amount of trust to allow one to say what one wants and have a discussion or argument, etc. Adhering to common international rules can promote the likelihood of more people wishing to have that minimal amount of trust.”


Between you and me, jaw-jaw is better than war-war, so that strategy would work just fine.


Between us and the Islamists, that strategy is a suicide pact. While you are busy with your “jaw-jaw”, the enemy is “nodding knowingly and smiling benignly” while you unilaterally adhere to whatever it is you’re jawing about. All the while, the enemy is accelerating his efforts to achieve as much as possible before you figure out he’s cheating, and demand a whole new round of “jaw-jaw”.


This, in a nutshell, is what I believe the Left either willfully or ignorantly refuses to understand.


If true, then the Left is either a willing accomplice, or they are stupid.


I have spent a great deal of time in exchanges with Leftists, and while many of them are purple Kool-Aid drinkers, I do not believe they are “stupid”…


More treason from the enemy within...
More anti-American propaganda and treason from the enemy within…


The Sunday Times
1/13/08

Anti-war Soros funded Iraq study
Brendan Montague

http://tinyurl.com/2wzeej

A STUDY that claimed 650,000 people were killed as a result of the invasion of Iraq was partly funded by the antiwar billionaire George Soros.

Soros, 77, provided almost half the £50,000 cost of the research, which appeared in The Lancet, the medical journal. Its claim was 10 times higher than consensus estimates of the number of war dead.

The study, published in 2006, was hailed by antiwar campaigners as evidence of the scale of the disaster caused by the invasion, but Downing Street and President George Bush challenged its methodology.

New research published by The New England Journal of Medicine estimates that 151,000 people - less than a quarter of The Lancet estimate - have died since the invasion in 2003.

“The authors should have disclosed the [Soros] donation and for many people that would have been a disqualifying factor in terms of publishing the research,” said Michael Spagat, economics professor at Royal Holloway, University of London.

The Lancet study was commissioned by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and led by Les Roberts, an associate professor and epidemiologist at Columbia University. He reportedly opposed the war from the outset.

His team surveyed 1,849 homes at 47 sites across Iraq, asking people about births, deaths and migration in their households.

Professor John Tirman of MIT said this weekend that $46,000 (£23,000) of the approximate £50,000 cost of the study had come from Soros’s Open Society Institute.

Roberts said this weekend: “In retrospect, it was probably unwise to have taken money that could have looked like it would result in a political slant. I am adamant this could not have affected the outcome of the research.”

The Lancet did not break any rules by failing to disclose Soros’s sponsorship.

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