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Friday, December 28, 2007
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Bible as Literature
by Paul Greenberg
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Dear Pedant,

It was wholly a pleasure to get your criticism of a column of mine savoring the fall weather in the spirit of Ecclesiates, the perfect book of the Bible to read in the autumn of the year and, for that matter, the autumn of life.

I'm grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to vent about an approach to the Bible that long has bothered me - an approach that treats the Book as a religious tract of the more doctrinaire sort rather than the great piece of literature it is.

My sin, it seems, was to conclude that column by saying: "Ecclesiates had it right from first to last: Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities, all is vanity. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart."

That kind of advice always offends those who prefer their religion grim, their Bible unrelenting, and who never miss a chance to display their superior knowledge of the Word.

Your letter begins with the kind of faint praise that is the hallmark of the pedant. You inform me that my writing "is nice and your piece does capture my feelings about October here in Virginia, too. But you imply an ending to Ecclesiates with the ninth chapter. There are three more. The real conclusion to Solomon's ruminations."

You write as if you had just psychoanalyzed King Solomon, to whom tradition attributes this wise little book, and so know what he really meant to say. Thank you, but I would prefer to let His Majesty speak for himself; he wrote better.

While we're being pedantic, I did not imply that Ecclesiastes ended three chapters before it does. Rather, you inferred that I was referring to the text literally, rather than using a figure of speech to sum up the book's comprehensive wisdom - "from first to last." After all, the first words of the book are not "Vanity of vanities," either, but rather "The words of the Preacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem."

There is a difference between imply and infer, or used to be, and it needs to be preserved. So does the integrity and range of the English language in general, which is in constant danger of erosion as definitions are blurred or lost altogether.

As a sample of both condescension and condemnation, it would be hard to top your explanation of why you wrote me: "I just wouldn't want people to think of you as biblically illiterate. We have enough of those people posing as writers."

Indeed we do. I feel as if I'm corresponding with one at this moment. For there is no one so illiterate as the literal-minded. That's also the big problem with the current spate of atheist best sellers; they approach the Book as if it were a literal explanation of how we got here, not as a revelatory insight into our nature and our relationship with each other and the divine.

Do you think a belief or disbelief in the theory of evolution, or even an agnostic suspension of judgment about it, has ever affected how anyone actually lives, treats others or seeks to restore his soul? That's the difference between a scientific theory and a towering, ages-old work of faith and literature like the Bible.

At the risk of shocking those who would never entertain a critical thought about Holy Writ, let me confess that those last chapters of Ecclesiates always had the sound of moralistic tidying-up to me, a snap answer to unanswerable questions. They're much like the unconvincing Happy Ending appended to the story of Job, which only blurs the profound questions that book raises about justice in this world rather than answering them.

Your literal-minded reading of Ecclesiastes brings to mind those who are at pains to explain that the Song of Songs, also attributed to Solomon, really isn't the sensual love song it is but some kind of platonic allegory about divine love, as if God's love could have nothing in common with the human kind. Are we not made in His image?

Is this a profanation - to read the Bible as literature, even to criticize it as such? I would submit that reading the Word with a critical eye is not to denigrate it but to appreciate, and apprehend it, in a different, literary light. Granted, the Bible is more than literature, but that doesn't mean it isn't literature, too.

It's sad, the extent of biblical illiteracy in a nation rooted in the values of Pilgrims and Puritans - and in which the religious impulse continues to play so great a part, whether we're talking about Martin Luther King Jr. or the sudden emergence of a Baptist preacher like Mike Huckabee in the presidential sweepstakes.

Surely a literal-minded pedantry can only discourage people from appreciating the Bible as the literary masterpiece it is. Presenting the Bible as just another moralistic tract, rather than in all its literary and poetic glory, only disguises its greatness. It would be like reading Shakespeare for the plots and not the inexhaustible language. How perverse.

What rich and enduring literature this Book is - always human even as it is divine, ever relevant even as it is timeless, as majestic and moving in the English of the King James Version as it is by turns tender and thunderous in Hebrew.

It's long been my fancy that the Five Books of Moses were handed down at Sinai in Elizabethan-Jacobean English, and only then translated into ancient Hebrew. I agree with Robert Alter, whose literary approach to Biblical narrative has made him the leading biblical translator of our time: While the authors of the KJV may have been deficient in Hebrew, translations ever since have been deficient in English. The treasure of the English tongue has seldom if ever been so wondrously displayed. How not wonder at such, yes, literature?

There. I feel better now. This has been great therapy.

Bless your heart,

Inky Wretch

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I think I'll skip a sassy comment . . .
I'd hate to feel that bite if it were aimed at me.

Happy New Year, Mr. Greenberg!

This is what is so fascinating
About the Bible to me.
Mr Greenburg writes:
At the risk of shocking those who would never entertain a critical thought about Holy Writ, let me confess that those last chapters of Ecclesiates always had the sound of moralistic tidying-up to me, a snap answer to unanswerable questions. They're much like the unconvincing Happy Ending appended to the story of Job, which only blurs the profound questions that book raises about justice in this world rather than answering them.
-------

When I read both books, I come away with a very different perspective than how you perceive them.

Whats more, I think there are as many impressions about those two books as there are people who read them.
That is an amazing result in itself.
I simply attribute that to Divine Inspiration


"As wide as the Waters"
There's a great book out there called "As Wide As the Waters" that is about how the King James Bible came to be. It is very readable and explains the mindset of the pre-modern Englishmen and Europeans.
They had a much more integrated view of life, rather than dividing out secular and sacred like we modern & postmodern Westerners do. (For example, Pedant's penchant for treating the Bible as Sacred ONLY, and not also just plain ol' literature.)

As an unintended bonus, it also helped me understand the Eastern Muslim's current mindset, because - for good or ill - they also have a more integrated view of sacred & secular.

I recomment it.

Wine, music, and your own wife 2
So enjoy life with the wife of your bosom, guys!

Study vs Inspiration
Amen, Mr. Greenberg. As a semi-pedent who loves to nitpick the nuances of the Bible for the greater insight that such study allows, I always try to keep in mind that it is an ancient piece of history and cultural literature of a particular people. When I want to study I use multiple translations in a effort to reveal those nuances. When I want inspiration, nothing beats the old KJV with its antique english.

I encountered an excellent illustration yesterday of the differences in usage when I attended a funeral. The minister who open the service read from John's gospel in one of the clunkier new translations and left me cold. The next speaker quoted the 23rd Psalm using the KJV. Then I was comforted and lifted up!

Poetry
My first run-in, in a church setting anyway, with Modern Translation was when I took the kids to what used to be called the Kiddie Service, when one of the hippie translations was used. My oldest boy said afterward, *I thought that was supposed to be poetry.* I have heard translations of the 23rd Psalm that manage to screw up the whole sheep and shepherd motif because these city people are so modern they would not know a sheep unless it was arranged on a plate. For instance, the significance of *He leadeth me beside the still waters* is that sheep will not drink from running water. Therefore, a true shepherd knows what his sheep need and makes sure they get it.

By the way, I got in a big fight with my Grade 10 English teacher about the difference between imply and infer. I was correct as it turned out, but there is such a thing as being dead right as I found out.

What kind of Bible student are you?
Paul Greenberg who where you teachers. The Bible has LONG been known as the "Sweetest Story EVER told".

>" the Book [Holy Bible] as a religious tract of
>the more doctrinaire sort rather than the great
>piece of literature it is."

Well it is and much more. I never thought of it JUST as that, nor do I know a fellow Christian that does either. We get great strength and wisdom from the bible. As far as the Bible as literature, some of God's words are pure poetry. There is no doubt. However some is LAW and Gospel.

Even *atheist* Historians and Philosophers reorganize the Bible as a sources of great insight to history and wisdom.

WHY do conservatives and some Christians have SUCH BIG FAT EGOS THAT THEY THINK ONLY THEY UNDERSTAND GOD or THE BIBLE? It's God's approach to the Bible not yours. You need to Pray that you can even understand it. Not only commitment is needed but prayer is needed to grasp it. YOU ARE JUST NOT THAT SMART FOLKS. It's not your approach to the Bible it's Gods, who has the plan.

Its that kind of arrogance that is not biblical. The fact is NO one has the ability to understand it with out the help of God, the Holy Spirit.

People that put the Bible down have not read it or read it, with out really study of an open heart. The Bible is not light reading. THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD. You have to realize the omniscient and omnipotent Creator had to dummy it down a little for his Children, it Gods word. We are truly NOT Worthy.

You can read and study the bible all you life and never learn it all. You can read it over and over and get new insight.

Why would anyone purport to be able
to outthink, or outwrite Paul Greenberg? Pure folly. But it does serve as a great vehicle for some thigh slapping entertainment.

I almost always agree with Paul. But when I don't, I'm smart enough to make my arguments in a straight forward manner. One is wise to avoid snarkiness and condescension when disagreeing with Paul. He can slice you up as thoroughly as anyone else I can think of, and without being crass or even impolite.

I will never understand why so many perfectly rational, intelligent people throw all common sense out the window when it comes to their religion.

Stuff Being Discussed in TownHall?
A worthy discussion but is this the topic of discussion in "townhalls" across the U.S.? Why not raise these issues with Huckabee?

Unbelievable Happy Endings
I'm something of a Greenberg fan, but I think I fall in more with his friend Pedant this time. Yes, the Bible is remarkable, profound, beautiful literature; the scholars commissioned by James VI and I did a masterful job; and biblical illiteracy is to be lamented. However, despite all the majestic language (whether Urtexte or of skilled translators), the Bible will not return to our culture unless it does so as a sacred book. At this point, this Calvinist agrees wholeheartedly with the Anglican C.S. Lewis.

The Bible was indeed written as a sacred book by Holy Men moved by the Spirit of God (paraphrase of II Peter 1:21). And, as for us Fundamentalist Christians being literalists--well,when Psalm 114 tells how the mountains skipped like rams when Israel went out of Egypt, we don't believe that the mountains really grew legs, or even in some Velikovskyan earthquake, only that it was a joyous time for the People of God and their Maker. We do indeed have a sensitivity to literary devices.

However, we also have an unbelievably happy ending to the Bible as a whole, and not just to the book of Job. Maybe Mr. Greenberg writes as a modernized Jew; but I write as a traditional Christian who believes that M'shiach indeed came way back in the first decades of the A.D. era. And, given the season,I wish all here his blessings.

Kepha
You have to wonder what future pedants will make of The Arab Street, Wall Street, and so forth, being quoted with long faces -- will they really expect everyone to believe that some boulevard somewhere pronounced fatwa on us and blew up the Twin Towers?

When people can't read (or won't read, which is worse), they can't learn such things as metaphors. Then they start mistaking metaphors for straw men.

@ Kepha
Here, here. Could not have said it better.

Greenberg fans
So when Paul writes:
"Do you think a belief or disbelief in the theory of evolution, or even an agnostic suspension of judgment about it, has ever affected how anyone actually lives, treats others or seeks to restore his soul?"

Was this sarcasm, a metaphor, or what? Surely he did not mean this literally.

Evolution affecting how someone lives
I guess that Hitler wasn't living then. Hitler was profoundly influenced by writers such as Huxley who was, what we would today call, a Darwinist.

Hitler believed, like Darwin, that "Negoes" were a different species from whites. He hated the Jews, for among other reasons, "bringing negroes to the Rhineland" with the goal of perverting the white race.

Beyond this example, it is obvious that evolution is nihilistic in regard to morals. We are just animals and all that we believe about God is merely a construct. In this regard, Christianity and Evolutionism are opposites. Nevertheless, if Greenberg wants to argue that Christianity never affected the way people live their lives then at least he would be making a consistent argument.


This subject has not been called
The Great Controversy for nothing.

The character of the person reading the book is revealed from their attitude towards it.
A description of a person's attributes, traits, or abilities can be seen with their own comments towards it.
I think Mr Greenburg has revealed who he is more than he can ever reveal how to read either Solomon or Job.

With comments such as this:
"I'm grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to vent about an approach to the Bible that long has bothered me - an approach that treats the Book as a religious tract of the more doctrinaire sort rather than the great piece of literature it is."

Now that Paul is on record, telling us all what bothers him about the Bible, and people who believe it, his above statement has revealed his own arrogance.

Must be cause he sits so high above the rest of humanity, and history he can sum it all up so condescendingly.

Religious tract?
Treat the bible as such bothers him?
Now why would he care how others accept the words with a devout belief the book is from God?
Far as I am concerned Mr Greenburg, you can die bothered about it, after all, you have nothing but a few words yourself.
I doubt anyone is going to feel your writings are of any religious value, not even a tract.

Hmmm
jetpilot writes: Friday, December, 28, 2007 8:07 AM

"What kind of Bible student are you?
Paul Greenberg who where you teachers."

Before you attempt to criticize others for an alleged lack of learning, you might want to be more careful how you display yourself. You have four errors in that last six-word sentence above.

bible
Teaching the bible correctly would be a mind boggling task

Historical accuracy
Dear reader, take note of the changing nature of prevailing criticisms regarding the bible. In the days of near-triumphant atheism the bible was supposedly completely off-base and incorrect about all sorts of historical facts, and lacked any credible evidence. OK, fast forward to today, where all sorts of archaelogical and historical evidence is supporting the biblical account.

Just as one minor example, the site where baby Moses was placed in the bullrushes of the Nile was hundreds of miles from the Pharaoh's domicile, and yet Pharaoh's daughter happened to discover the little guy while taking a quick morning bath. Yeah, right! Major ammunition for the skeptics!! Oh, but then, the pharaoh's summer home was discovered only hundreds of feet from the glorious and fateful site.

Notice the critics have backed off a bit, and been forced to change tactics. Oh yes, no apologies, they have simply re-designed their attack. Now they find the bible is evil for things such as toughness on treating evil. Other claim the bible is ambiguous and cannot be understood. And so on. Not to fear, the Divine Historian is not troubled by all this. He is not breaking a sweat, and when our gaze is constantly on Him, we shall not either.

Success is when the opponents must constantly change strategy!!


The Bible as literature?... Yes!
The Bible should be taught as a great work of fiction. Like a lot of great fiction ("War & Peace", "Candide", etc) there is a backdrop of history to the story.

Jesus was a living breathing human being. However, using poetic license, our authors (nomadic jews writing roughly 2500 years ago), have made our hero into a kind of superhero. Born without "sin" (a virgin birth, not through nasty sexual intercourse), our hero could WALK ON WATER & bring the dead back to life.

Of course, these things not possible, but our authors understood that to create a "GOD" fiction, using historical references & actual places to bring our story to life, supernaturalism was a necessary ingredient. At that time, of course, there was a long established history in other god fictions of supernaturalism & virgin births & messianic prophesies fulfilled.

By all means, YES!, to the bible as literature. Children have to understand that humans have a spiritual dimension. And, also, that if the bible doesn't fulfill these spiritual needs, then great music, ART, even science can fill the void. There are many paths to spiritual fulfillment. The God fictions are but one attempt to address this issue.

Will, The Bible as Literature?
Will, I am sure you are trying to stir the pot....good stir.

Sarah laughed when God stated that she would be with child, Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Sarah = Word as literature view (even though it was essentially God saying it....a miracle before her eyes....she still laughted).

Abraham = childlike foolish fundamentalist etc view.

You get a choice, God gives us the choice based on faith. Faith as stated above is not predicated on sight. Virgin birth, walking on water...difficult to believe...even more so than being 99 and having a child.

.....I will 'err' with Abraham and you obviously have choosen to 'err' with Sarah. Each has its fruit....

Fiction
Will,

A small problem exists with your "bible as fiction with a historical backdrop" thesis. 11 of the 12 disciples, plus the Apostle Paul, as well as others, were sent to horribly painful and cruel deaths for their beliefs. At any point they could have admitted that it was all "fiction" and gotten off the hook. These were people who personally witnessed to the resurrection of Christ, and countless other miracles.

Besides, the "authors" of the bible were not authors at all, in the traditional sense. So why would they bother writing a bunch of fiction that they then claimed to be fact? In the ancient world the "author" class typically were either historians (non-fiction) or poets (fiction). The writers of the bible were neither, they were fishermen, tent makers, physicians, etc.

And finally, the early church leaders, who would know better, never considered the writings to be fiction. Contrast that with Homer, for example, who everyone understood to be a poet and a writer of fiction.

"Man would not have written the bible if he/she could, and could not have done so if he/she would."

Your Bible article
As a student of scripture (self-proclaimed, at least), I loved your article. Your clarity of thought and expression were worthy of your subject, and I couldn't agree more with your observations on the literary content of the Bible and the majesty of the language in the often-disrespected King James Version. By the way, I was recently persuaded by a Mormon friend to read the Book of Mormon after he discovered my taste for such things, and I was more than a little bit surprised by the richness of the text and frequent Hebraisms found in that work as well. My evangelical friends had tried to persuade me that my extrabiblical reading amounted to something akin to silent blasphemy. After reading your piece, I not only agree with your views, but believe that you truly appreciate the fulness of the good things in life.

The Bible IS great literature, but...
It is sad that the past three generations of students in our public schools have been deprived of a literary source of so much of our American culture and American colloquialism. They hear the common terms and phrases such as "scapegoat", "judge not...", "Golden Rule", "cast the first stone", etc. and they aren't even aware that the Bible was the origin.

Of course, my own son is learning that the Bible is not merely a piece of fine literature - it is THE source of Truth. All academic disciplines should line up with that Truth and if they don't line up, they are false.

Obviously, my son is not in public school...

Kepha
Nicely said; I agree.

Faith and Knowledge
The question du jour in determining a person's religious/political credentials, "Do you believe in evolution", is worse than simplistic, it's destructive. The question creates a false division between religion and science. It tells people that if one is true the other, by necessity, is false. This makes faith a likely casualty of scientific discovery, since science has the ablility to prove itself with tangible evidence, and belief does not. Furthermore, it holds Christians up to ridicule because evolution is a "theory" in the same way that gravity is a "theory". The ability to think critically and apply the scientific method is a gift from God, and people of faith should pursue it with confidence that one truth cannot disprove another.

There is a time & place for teaching
the Bible & other religious literatures. It is called Sunday School. If you wish your children to be indoctrinated into christianity, send them to these type schools (there are plenty), just as if your teenager wishes to learn about palm reading & horoscopes, he/she can attend seperate classes in palmistry & astrology, outside the school system.

Again, to learn more about the Bible, attend Bible study classes.

The public school system is a secular institution design to give our children proficiency in the basics: reading, writing, arithmetic.... politics & history are also taught. But Jesus as "GOD" & the whole religious agenda have a seperate (but equal!) time & place called Sunday school, called private religious school, called homeschooling, take your pick. We don't need to teach our children about gods & devils & holy ghosts & mythical Gardens of Eden in a public school system classroom setting. Next thing you know, the Scientologists will want THEIR L. Ron Hubbard agenda taught in the school system also.

a fine line
Jesus made wine. But we're not to get drunk.

Jesus is the only begotten son of God but I don't really have a plank in my eye.

We're to enjoy our lives here but not love this world.

We're to do good works but we are saved by faith alone.

The bible contains all these truths.

The way I see it, if someone tells me a man is old as dirt - I understand what he is saying.

If he says the man is 92 years, 3 months, and 2 days old - I understand what he is saying.

God gave us reason so I believe we should use it.

Hard, hard work being a believer.


Hey Will
Where did American education start? Who started it? What were the materials used to teach children the alphabet?

Knowing the Bible
It is virtually impossible to teach (secular) literature without having to address and explain Biblical references and allusions, which are everywhere. Therefore, I would like to see the Bible taught as literature, as a part of our general cultural knowledge. Unfortunately, it would take about thirty seconds for the teacher or the students or both to put a religous spin on the material and for parents to come storming in with machetes. It's possible to teach the Bible---objectively---as literature at the college level (where students are more mature and parents are somewhere else), but I don't see it happening at the secondary school level.

Meanwhile, "the Fall from innocence" and "the knowledge of good and evil" and "in the belly of the whale" and "the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" and "Veronica's veil" and "lured by the serpent" just have to be explained---very carefully.

Scarlet
19th century American children were taught their ABCs with the McGuffey Readers, a series of very Christian books.

They would be practically unreadable to us today, partially because of the archaic early 19th century language, partially because those people were far more religious than even very religious people today.

i know, Left
I just wanted Will to understand the history of the public school system that he was describing to all of us.

don't forget the NE Primer
ps, Left, it is amusing that you think that we can't read either one today. I guess we cannot read Shakespeare:)

Also: if the Bible were "taught" as
literature at the jr. & sr. high school level, what would we do with the "torah" (first 5 books of the old testament)? Read it. There is a long laundry list of archaic laws that almost nobody follows anymore (against shellfish, linen). Then there are a few prohibitions (against gay sex, say) that preachers like to lift out of the laundry list, cherry-pick, as way of explaining god's worldview (they conveniently leave out the linen & shellfish, etc., which are listed right there, alongside man sleeping with man).

What do you teach children by way of "literature"? That people still have phobias with the homosexuality issue, so THAT law remains intact, while people no longer worry about mixing linen with nylon, or poly-blend frabics, which the Book of Leviticus condemns? This whole issue of "teaching" the torah as history or literature is a nightmare.

actually Will
I don't want the bible taught in public schools because it will be taught as mythology or just some neat poetry or whatever. The public schools have enough trouble teaching math and spelling in between condom and saving the planet classes.

btw- Christians don't have a fear of homosexuals, they have a fear of God.

As literature, as history, as the Word..
...this great book has enabled nations to rise, and flourish, just as it has been the vehical for turbulance within, between, nations. An easy reading book of scripture, for teaching, and guilding, a people who "struggled with God"; Israel. We sit here today, thousands of years later, debating its message, and meaning of the message. Still, struggling with God. Kind of humorous, isn't it? A society today, with a greater understanding of the world, with a greatly increased vocabulary, and we cannot even understand what was written thousands of years ago. Take a deep breath, people, and exhale slowly. Did you see it? No! Your body felt, and absorbed, nutrients from the air, and you felt the rush from the deep breath you just took, but a glimps of that air was missing. There comes a day when we will all understand the Words message, and it will be the day we "breath out", for the last time. Our flesh, and blood, will have given up struggling in the world, and we will either, "give up the Lord", or not.

"will" would be perfectly happy...
...about teaching the Bible as literature if it weren't for that oh-so-inconvenient thing about homosexuality. But he won't say that, will he? No... he has to pretend his objection is about how DIFFICULT it would all be.

Hypocrite.

@ Jay
Go into any physics class in a university (even the most secular) and you will not find anyone claim that evolution is a fact akin to gravity.

In any case, there is no such thing as the "theory of gravity". Gravity is simply a description of the force produced by a massive object. Maybe you are referring to "gravitation". This term describes the phenomenon of gravity and, in case you are unaware, the theory of gravitation is a huge debate these days, due to recent discoveries in the sphere of quantum mechanics. Just like with life, no has yet proven what causes gravity. Lots of theories for sure, but...

So, to restate your assertion correctly; our physical being as humans is akin to the force of gravity. We know each exists, we just don't know why. Evolution is one explanation for why life exists while special creation is another. There is no "fact" of what is colloquially termed "macroevolutionary theory". Just like there is no "fact" of gravitational theory.

Though this is not the place to debate the pros and cons of such theories, I just had to point out how preposterous and tedious it is when people like you Jay, get onto forums like this and claim that things like gravity and evolution are metaphorically equal. They are not.

inkling
I feel no shame nor stigma about being gay. It's just a fact of nature. It just IS. I don't make an issue out of it.

Now go back & re-read my post(s). You always bring such bias & prejudice to your readings (& responses), that it may be wise for you to read a post twice, then wait 15 minutes before commenting (it will save you the trouble of constantly having to take your foot out of your mouth).

Another lie
will writes: "I feel no shame nor stigma about being gay. It's just a fact of nature. It just IS. I don't make an issue out of it."

Uh... right.

That's why you post dozens of messages on every topic involving homosexuality. Because you don't make an issue out of being gay.

It's alright by me, will. It's not me that you're lying to, it's yourself.

beeblebrox
Theories (theory of gravitation, theory of evolution) are simply that: reasonable theories posited to explain natural phenomena.

From my on-line dictionary:
Theory: A coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena (i.e. Einstein's theory of relativity).

The theory of evolution simply attempts to answer more questions coherently of how we got here (at least we know - through other theories - that the earth is billions of years old & we descended from a long chain of predecessors during this 5 billion year old trek) than a biblical text. Biblical texts are actually much less able to answer questions such as the age of the earth, how we got here, etc (evolution doesn't explain how we "got here" either, but provides more info than the god fictions).

Belief in god (& extrapolating "answers" of the big questions from biblical texts) require faith.

From my online dictionary:
Faith:
1. Confidence or trust in a person or thing.
2. belief that is not based on proof (such as "blind faith")

Both "god" & "evolution" are man-made concepts to explain the bigger pictures of life, but "god" as an answer is not sufficient in the age of science. Science requires proof; religion (god) does not & could not. "God" is an ancient all-purpose answer in & of itself, while evolution tries to give answers by means of providing that "coherent group of propositions" that might help explain (in its limited way) existence.

Evolution does not purport to answer questions of "God". In science, there is no god. There is no scientific data available to "prove" the existence of god, "god" being an abstract idea in the first place.

Also, beeblebrox, inkling, others
I am not an evolutionary scientist, I am simply a reasonably intelligent guy trying to explain the differences between "god" (as explanation) & "evolution" (as explaination) for providing answers to man's bigger questions.

Please refrain from taking a sentence here or a phrase there out of context to spin your own confections. Muchas gracias.

God and evolution
Will writes:

"Both "god" & "evolution" are man-made concepts to explain the bigger pictures of life, but "god" as an answer is not sufficient in the age of science. "

You say this as if you know what you are talking about, even though you clearly do not. You, sir, are an extremely narrow minded individual.

"Science" as you term it, is the pursuit of naturalistic explanations for what we see around us. Obviously, God transcends this primitive philosophy and thus, if one determines to stick with such a limited world view, one will end up believing the kind of nonsense that you often post in these threads.

Open you mind Will.

Your OPINION is that "god" is a man-made concept. God might differ with you on that. I agree that evolution is a man-made concept which probably is why it is found so seriously wanting. Feel free to believe the myth of evolutionism but try to understand my point, that being that "evolution" is no more akin to "gravity" than "energy" is akin to anthropogenic global warming.



Tract, Literature, and Guide
Someone pointed out the Elizabethans had a more integrated worldview than we poor benighted post-moderns. I was immersed in the bible as a child and teen and then walked away from it for years returning only in response to a career disaster. I have read Ecclesiastes several times in several translations and find it an eminently practical piece. As for the last three chapters they do seem contrived but that may come with persepctive as well.

The bible certainly presents a God centered view of the universe. It is also very good literature. It shows mankind at his best and his worst (perhaps that is one of its appeals).

We see the first management consultant (Jetrho in Exodus 18); how to survive in a bureaucracy (Psalms 119); how to treat your enemies (1 Samuel 24); the need for central government (Judges); the nearly inevitable progression of government into tyranny (1 Kings & 2 Kings) how to rebuke a subordinate and on and on.

I have found the Bible to be worthy of close study because it will guide me by both good and bad examples. My only problem is to find the right example and understanding it in the proper time.

By denying our children the Bible we are doing them a great disservice.


GREENBERG'S "THE BIBLE AS LITERATURE"
Mr. Greenberg's column was a literary joy to read.

It would have been interesting to have read the comments of the person to whom Mr. Greenberg was responding. On second thought, though ..... maybe not.

Mr. Greenberg gave most of us something to think about. That is, he gave most of the still-questioning, still-searching ones a viewpoint hitherto unseen.

I also wanted to comment that Lilly's writing is always appreciated. It is a pleasure to read someone's work without stumbling constantly over common writing errors. (Sorry, Mr. Greenberg, I'm pedantic in my own way; however, poor writing is difficult to follow and decipher.)

Thanks to the author for a most interesting column.



will and whoever else thinks that:
"The public school system is a secular institution"

Jesus has a big mill-stone waiting for you. Y'all are directly responsible for the empty drivel of Soviet style materialism, that removed every reference to everything that gave meaning to life. You insist on this being taught to all the students in all the schools, causing so many kids to drop out, attempt suicide, or live their lives addicted to street drugs and alcohol. I would put a gun in my mouth if I had to sit though your "secular institution," that you think is so wonderful.

ulsterscott
one of the valuable aspects of reading the Bible when we are children, and then reading it as an adult, is that we can witness our own maturing.

When one is a youth, one imagines oneself to be wiser than one's betters.

But the scriptures, and other works of complexity have layers of insights, that are discerned and understood better as the years go by.

It is like holding a mirror up to one's face so that the truth about one's wisdom can be revealed.

When schools neglect to teach the great literary works, replacing them with the drivel they focus on now, the kiddies can imagine themselves to be brilliant without contradiction.

This is why there ought to be a return to the study of these important works, and a moving away from teaching the sex life of a banana.

Not complete
"2. belief that is not based on proof (such as "blind faith")"

There is faith that is not blind faith, that is, based on evidence.

Layers for Mountain Rose
Just so. The Bible is deeply layered. These days it seems as though every time I read a passage I gain a new layer of insight. At long last I am even beginning to understand the poetic parts as both figurative and practical. Somethign my college English professors would have the vapors over. (The understanding of poetry that is.)

faith and not faith
We walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Cor 5:7

If one can see something (proof) then one needs no faith. That's why faith in man is vanity.


Science, Naturalism, Theism
I think science as a process of inquiry that allows the accumulation of evidence leading to a conclusion. The method of science is to try and falsify a hypothesis. That is to prove that a hypothesis/guess is wrong. Science is neutral on the subject of God, or god, or gods. In and of itself it cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

Naturalism which is the assumption that there is no supernatural first cause (God). The assumption for theism (the belief in God, or god, or gods)is that there is a creator. Inherrent in naturalism is the belief that humanity is just so much organic machinery. Theism implies that there is some reason for humanity to exist and possibly that there is life beyond this mortal coil.


Bible gives the answer you look for
Like Greenburg looks at the bible (in appearance from this article), as smugly above it all.

Another man reads the bible looking for contradictions.
He will find what he is looking for.
Another looks for something to condemn and mock.
He will find something there to supply his desire.

Others look for something to question, and find a mountain of subjects to meets their needs.

Then there are the sincere men and women who having no judgment to pass, without an ounce of arrogance nor smugness from their own conceit, look for truth.
They find exactly what they look for and all they can handle.

The Book quickly discerns its readers attitude he picks it up in, and reveals who he is more than any man alive can define the book itself.

It really is the Word of God and will be the last thing standing when all is said and done.
So go your way, and trust in your own abilities, understanding and wisdom your natural or acquired skill or talent.

Reality will come and slap you awake to how small and insignificant you really are.
All your dreams, and all your treasures will not deliver you from the Judgments already given in the Book.

Like a vapor of dew that disappears as soon
as the sun rises.


Science so called, is sorely lacking
To answer much of anything of real value to life.
It does increase knowledge of bits and pieces of the Wisdom and Knowledge Nature has provided.

True science has no bias
That is a place no ordinary man has obtained to.
His own ego and his own ideas and beliefs stops him from being a dispassionate seeker of truth.
The Nature he studies is so far above his capacity to grasp it all, he dissects it into minute compartments and smugly feels triumphant his intelligence shines the light for us all.

Enough to gag a maggot

All the wisdom of Solomon
Was his grasp of this present life UNDER THE SUN.

With all his wisdom, knowledge and power to try life itself, he came to the simple solution to it all.
There is nothing complicated about the summing up for it all.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 -
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Let us hear is so simple.

To talent scout
Re "Science, so-called, is sorely lacking to answer much of anything of value in life": Hello? Are you alive? Or did you die at 22 of typhoid, as my great-grandfather did? Did you have sixteen children because you didn't know how to plan your family, as was true of my great-great-grandparents, and did you then have nine of those sixteen children die in childhood, as they did? Did your wife die in childbirth, as used to be very, very common? Are you feeling well today, or are you languishing with chronic malaria, common among our US Midwestern ancestors? Or did you already die of yellow fever, common among our US Southern ancestors? If you are diabetic, did you already die or can you live a normal life and manage your disease? Can you name half a dozen children crippled from polio? If these horrors have not affected you, or killed you, you can thank scientists.

When you got up this morning, was your house warm, and did you have running water, thanks to modern engineering science? Were your bacon and eggs fresh, having been refrigerated, and not half-rotten? Thank refrigeration science. Were you able to chew, thanks to modern dentistry? Could you see to find your plate, thanks to modern opthalmology and optometry? If, God forbid, you should have an attack of acute appendicitis later today, will you almost certainly die of peritonitis? No? Thank the scientists who developed surgery, anesthesia, aseptic technique, pain-killing drugs, and antibiotics.

I don't know what you think scientists do, to say they give us nothing of value in life. The fact is that without scientists many of us would not be alive at all.

lilly
If I may presume to jump in with one thought until talent scout returns. I would like you or anybody else, to supply two lists of all the scientists who made great advancements in science, in the last 2000 years. The first list of all the advancements that were made by Christians, and the second list of all the advancements made by materialists. I already know the results, but you may be surprised at the result. And even if all the advancements of science were taught in the schools it is inadequate to supply the deep need all humans have for knowing God, the gods, the supernatural, the bible, and morality, that give so much meaning to our lives; there is a deep hunger for the supernatural in every human which is the only possible explanation for the popularity of Harry Potter.

Lilly, your problem is
You do not read very well before opening your loud mouth.

quote:

talent scout writes: Saturday, December, 29, 2007 11:17 AM
Science so called, is sorely lacking
To answer much of anything of real value to life.
It does increase knowledge of bits and pieces of the Wisdom and Knowledge Nature has provided.
--------
Science did not invent heat lilly.
Science did not invent plants and leaves from which come medicines.
Science did not invent conversation, it existed long before a telephone.
Science did not invent transportation, it existed long ago.
Science did not invent cooking, clothing, air, water.
It has learned bits and pieces of the wisdom given in nature.

Inventions and improvements of methods from knowledge over generations and millions of minds.

All found from what already EXISTS.

good column
Greenberger does a good job of capturing the different ways that the boble can be appreciated. Several people have pointed to his objection to reading the bible as a "religious tract of the more doctrinaire sort" and dropped the qualifier to suggest that he is objecting to reading it as a religious tract. But of course this is nonsense.

Greenberger also brings out the real problem with teaching of the bible in public schools. There is no reason that atheists should object to teaching the bible as litterature. While large parts of it are boring (Numbers to take one example) much of it is great litterature. And as lilly correctly notes above, it is the source of so much that comes later that to not know the allusions puts one at a disadvantage when reading much that came later. (Of course the same is true of greek mythology).

My public high school covered the book of Job as litterature. But in doing so, it noted, as Greenberger does above, that Job has this great core story, but there is another stylistic section which appears to have been added by a later writer that cheapens that powerful story. If one is going to teach the story as litterature, that is not something one can ignore.

The problem is not really that the atheist will object to reading the bible as litterature. But as the comment section above illustrates, some of the religious will. So when they want the bible taught in school it is presumably as something other than litterature. Which is obviously inappropriate in this country.

Beetlebrox
You made some inaccurate comments about science. Of course it is true that people don't compare evolution and gravity in physics class, but that is only because evolution is not physics.

But the difference between the two is not solidity, except to the degree that evolution is more solid. Our understanding of gravity exists only within our broader theories, and those broader theories exist on the level of evolution.

You are also wrong that on our current understanding, gravity is a force. Our current understanding of gravity is in terms of the theory of general relativity. And by that theory gravity is not a force. Rather it is a matter of inertia in curved space.

Is being a pedant to a pedant, pedant?
Awe, was Mr. Greenberg offended by logic and reason because it wasn't poetic?

Could there be anything more beautifully written then "the cheif end of man is to fear God and keep his commandments" or "So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:...After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations. 17 So Job died, being old and full of days"

You are right, the bible is the most fantastic piece of literature ever written, poetic and melodic, but, except by your sorry logic, that does not mean we can contrive whatever meaning from it we want or that fundmental interperetations are wrong.

I'm sorry your ego is hurt by that, but you still have your very witty writing.

Lord bless

Literature Yes but
Anything written is literature.

The Greek word for talk is laleo. There is an old Greek expression. 'That's a lot of lala.'

Meaning, 'that is a lot of meaningless talk.'

There is so much meaningless talk in the world and much of it is literature.

The Bible viewed as 'simply' literature can be lumped in with all the lala.

To talent scout
"Science! True daughter of old time thou art,
Who alterest all things with thy poring eyes.
Why preyest thou thus upon the poet's heart,
Vulture, whose wings are dull reality?"
*********

I love the story about the arrogant medical student who was so impressed with his own brilliance that his professor decided to teach him a lesson. He called the boy to his lab and asked for some assistance in research and the boy, eager to impress his professor, gladly agreed. "What did you want me to do, Sir?" "Take this chick. Dispatch it. Then dissect out the tissues I have listed here." "Sir, I have dispatched the chick and dissected out the tissues. What shall I do next?" "Homogenize the tissues in the Waring blender." "Sir, I have homogenized the tissues. What shall I do now?" "Put the chick back together."


Chas
Science isn't theology. It isn't supposed to fill people's deep longings for the supernatural, or whatever you said. It doesn't do supernatural; it does evidence.

I am not trained as a scientist, but I have been married to a scientist for 55 years and so have heard a thing or two about what they do. My own belief, if you should ask, is that God reveals himself to us through scientists, among other people. I love the image that AE Housman made: he said that when God created the universe he hid treasures of knowledge throughout it for man to discover, just as loving parents hide Easter eggs for their children to find on Easter morning.

Scientists have eliminated and alleviated no end of human suffering. Are they not God's instruments, then?

chas again
Raised as a Protestant, I saw nothing unusual when my fourth-grade teacher began every day by reading us the 23rd Psalm and then praying to Jesus, or when we learned all of the stanzas of all the Christmas carols, or when a blessing was offered at a school function that ended, "In Jesus' name we ask it, Amen".

Then I grew up and, in the fullness of time, came to know a number of Jewish people (there weren't any where I grew up, just like there weren't any black people. I think there were some Catholics but they lived on the other side of town---we were very WASPish). And, you know what, the Jewish people told me that when they were children and the teacher prayed to Jesus, they felt left out. They felt second-class. They felt like the school wasn't really their school.

Now, that seems unkind to me, and I am not for being unkind to children. That's why I do not want Christianity (or Judaism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or any other religion) in our secular public schools.

I have posted many times my opinion that what social conservatives really want most is social control. They seem to me just like the Taliban: they are so certain their way is best that they would force it upon all of us.

Liked your story lilly
Not sure if I like the poem though.

lilly writes: 12:51 AM
To talent scout
"Science! True daughter of old time thou art,
Who alterest all things with thy poring eyes.
Why preyest thou thus upon the poet's heart,
Vulture, whose wings are dull reality?"
------
Classic adulation that reality comes through science, and is hogwash my dear lady.
When has science ever talked about the stillness of the heart?

Let me write my own poem, and let science find the father of a peaceful heart.

Not a poet, so no grading will be accepted for judgment.

Roses are red, violets are blue
I like peanut butter
Lets dance

One thing is certain lilly, science cannot ever produce reality.
It may find some knowledge of reality, but it is not a producer of anything but of some unknown before existing truth.

The more serious questions as to our being, is life and death, the subjects of Job and Solomon.

The inner struggles of all men

Much more to this subject of reality than there is to the nature of things.
Much better to know God and His Law than to know everything there is to know about space or the earth.
I hold the least child of God to be smarter by far than 10,000 atheistic scientists, or the ones who do not think about the things written in the Bible.

I accept the Wisdom of Solomon in his conclusions.
Thats reality



I also went to school
And never seen anything like you describe lilly, grew up in the 40's 50's and 60's, before prayer was outlawed, without a law to do that with.

If you could possibly stay in some balance of reality and stop with the wild eyed accusations we were like the Taliban back then, you may be able to communicate your points better.

If a prayer is outlawed cause it offends another person, then to have equal protection of the law, we all should be protected from anything that offends us too.

Therefore I want Hollywood closed and locked up.
I want this days music stopped playing with in ear shot of me.
I have lots of other things that offend my senses too.
Silly people,like the ones who compare voluntary prayer to the Taliban, that offends me to the marrow of my bones.
Just cause it's so stupid to say something that asinine and wild eyed ignorance.


would Christians like it?
If you are seriously teaching it as literature you are looking at
"founding myth stories"

I hear David Christian's _Maps of Time_ which is btw possibly the most
important history book of the century (this one, not the last hundred
years) does a great job of putting the founding myths in context.

But haven't read it.

Also as literature you have to ask could this have happened based
on what we know of reality. The answer is no to a lot of the stories.
And then a good teacher will be saying these are supposed to be taken
figuratively not literal and students would get upset.

Anyways, I am for teaching the Bible as literature and as historical and
as religious book in schools.

But I warn you that the book was taken out of many schools because the
writing was anachronistic - what version are you going to use - and
too many kids found it boring. This is what happened at one of the
schools I taught at as told to me by a former priest become teacher.
The kids just weren't interested and it was too hard for teachers to make
it relevant. He thought it wasn't at the level of most underclassmen and
was better taught after high school. I agree with him.

(ok, I know, the last story betrays my name, but I swear it is the truth)

talent scout, establishment clause
the establishment clause of the 1st amendment disallows prayer.

You might not agree with this interpretation, but there is your law for
you. A big one.

Of course, a practice often won't be outlawed or allowed until it is
brought to court. Hence the rulings on gay marriage which was not
allowed but when challenged lo and behold the rights allowed in MA
made it legal and lo and behold prayer and public school which had
been a holdover from church schools when challenged was found to
not be legal.

Thus you have a problem with interpretation of the laws.
Some times things, like the above, have to be brought to the court's
and society's attention before the law is enforced if not people keep on
doing what they've been doing whether or not it is allowed or not allowed.

The Bible as literature
I have always thought of literature as being the art of using words in a highly skilled manner to convey important, even profound ideas in an enjoyably readable and creative form. Quite honestly, by this definition, not much of the Bible qualifies as literature in my opinion; therefore, any attempt to study it as such is bound to fail eventually.

However, studying it for eternal truths about God, man and the possible relationships between God and man can yield spectacularly beneficial results. It is theological truth alone that makes most of the Bible enjoyable to read, although large portions of the Old Testament are boring regardless of how you approach them.

Without doing a great deal of intense exegetical study, much of the New Testament is virtually impossible to understand. That is why we have thousands of different “Christian” denominations spouting a flood of goofy, contradictory views supposedly derived from the same written revelation. I believe that genuine Christian commitment, a competent general knowledge of the New Testament, learning the Greek language in which it was originally written and gaining an exhaustive knowledge of biblical hermeneutics are not enough to be able to accurately decipher what the Bible means by what it says.


The Bible as literature cont.---
If one would get at the truth, one must add to the above a literal reliance on the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. He inspired the early followers of Christ to understand and write down the many principles of divine truth with which they were concerned. That should assure us that he knows what the Bible means by what it says. He wants us to know what it means also, but only when we are ready to become seriously focused on learning the wonderful principles for life here and for eternity that God has for us in the pages of his book.

My conclusion: the Bible, particularly the New Testament, should never be taught as literature, and should not be taught at all without also supplying an accurate exposition of its theological content revealing it’s amazingly relevant and exciting, transformational core.

Addition to ColinC points
The Bible make certain claims about itself.

Authorial intent must be a consideration in understanding the Bible. Ignore what the Author says about His own work is making It say whatever one wants.

The Bible can be understand if one takes what the Author says He meant it to say.

Unbelievers are much too shocked at that idea motivated to rationalize away Biblical claims. But even suspending belief one can understand what is meant without 'belief' if one is honest with
plain statements. Just say, "I understand what it says I just don't believe it," Instead of the dishonest method of re-interpreting everything into allegory or mythologizing it.

Jesus=The Word=The Bible
To Christians, Jesus is identified as The Word, which is also identified as the Bible - The Word of God.

To Christians, Jesus is both completely human and of this world, and completely of God, all at the same time.

Therefore, if the Bible is equated with Jesus, then like Jesus, if it also both of this world and God, all at the same time.
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