Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, November 07, 2007
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
On the Care and Feeding of Terrorists
by Paul Greenberg
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


"If it's December 1941 in Casablanca, what time is it in New York? I bet they're asleep in New York. I bet they're asleep all over America."

- Humphrey Bogart as Rick in "Casablanca"

Everybody knows there are certain moral principles engraved in stone: Thou Shalt Not Kill, for example. Except of course in self-defense. Or war. Or in other cases of justifiable homicide. Don't lie, either. Except of course when the Gestapo is knocking on the door looking for the neighbors you've hidden in the attic. And torture is bad. That should go without saying, which is why every high-minded editorial page in the country seems to be saying it, for they all seem to have a knack for pointing out the obvious: Torture bad.

Ah, but what's torture - short rations? Being hooded day and night? Solitary confinement? Where does torture begin, just after harassment and just before death? Today's favorite example, issue, and shibboleth: Waterboarding! Is it ever, ever permissible? Even if it's not, do we tell our enemies they need not fear it? Such are the questions now holding up the confirmation of an exceptionally well-qualified judge named Michael Mukasey as the next attorney general of the United States.

The judge refuses to break down and say the magic words - "I won't allow waterboarding" - no matter how hard he's pressed by that Senate committee. Why not? Maybe because he suspects that, after reciting that pledge, others will be required of him until, step by step, he finds himself in the position of poor, beleaguered and mentally outgunned Alberto Gonzales.

For as counsel to the president, Mr. Gonzales found himself approving step-by-step torture memos specifying just how much torture/abuse/human degradation/minor irritation could be legally permitted. That way lies a lot of embarrassment and not much enlightenment - because it divorces such decisions from context, and therefore from reality.

Judge Mukasey may be wise enough to know that in practice the various Thou Shalt Nots depend on the circumstances, like the application of any other sacred principle. But what circumstances could possibly justify scaring a terrorist almost to death?

To cite the classic hypothetical: What if thousands of innocent lives could be saved by waterboarding one terrorist? Consider the case of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind the September 11th attacks. Word has it the he revealed al-Qaida's whole table of organization in Europe after being waterboarded.

Is there any ethically acceptable response to what has become The Great Waterboarding Question? Yes, there is: Don't deal in hypotheticals. Yes, by all means, outlaw torture, which is what the U.S. government has done, but why define it overmuch?

Instead, well-groomed senators in coats and ties and clean fingernails sit in their nice, spacious air-conditioned hearing room and tell CIA interrogators, military judges and all those whose duty it is to prevent another September 11th - and who have been remarkably successful, so far - what they may do and what they may not do when it comes to the care and feeding of terrorists.

Just where are the boundaries in this war on terror? That war has been so forgotten that some that some even object to its name. They'd much prefer to slip back into the dream of security that the country enjoyed during the 1990s as one attack after another was left to the usual criminal proceedings - before September 11th shook America awake.

How are we now to handle the terrorists that, through the great exertions of dedicated Americans and our allies, have fallen into our hands? As ordinary criminal defendants with all the rights and privileges appertaining to? What should the law say? What should the next attorney general of the United States say?

My answer: Not too much. Such questions are why we have judges and courts and the saving common law - to weigh the context of each case rather than pretend we can foresee each and every circumstance that will arise and draw up rules and regulations to cover every one of them in some comprehensive Napoleonic code of interrogation. A short word for that approach is folly.

There's a reason why the greatest of legal guides - like the Ten Commandments and the Constitution of the United States tend to be written in general terms.

The fabled case in good old Anglo-Saxon law is that of the British admiral who won a great victory by breaking the line of battle against orders. What was to be done with him? The court decided to decorate and hang him, not necessarily in that order. Those of us who think the administration of justice should consider context, and prefer to be guided by actual outcomes rather than abstract theory, can hope the admiral was pardoned while still drawing breath.

Surely such a solution would be satisfactory to all, with the possible exception of the enemy. Should some interrogator torture a highly illegal combatant in U.S. custody in the course of saving the Republic, he could be presented his reprimand, medal and pardon all at the same time. But if it turns out he's been torturing some innocent camel driver from the Hindu Kush, let's throw the book at him. All the books. Let's go by results.

Rather than start compiling a list of non-negotiable Thou Shalt Nots, the distinguished senators in that hearing room should come out against torture and leave it at that, which is what this administration finally did. The alternative is to follow the hapless Alberto Gonzales into the step-by-step mire of deciding just what is unallowable torture and just what is "only" degrading and inhumane treatment. Go down that road and we could wind up outlawing basic training.

Somebody needs to remind these senators, not to mention the various literati and glitterati that are so concerned about the lives of terrorists - no, the comfort of terrorists - that we're at war (remember?) and can debate these fine points after victory is won, maybe decades from now, just as we now debate Abraham Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, not to mention freedom of the press. Mr. Lincoln had a way of putting first things first, like the preservation of the Union.

Going back to first things tends to put such questions in perspective. So does remembering a little history. Like December 7, 1941. And September 11, 2001. Instead, they're still asleep all over America.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Hypothetical Situation
Suppose your ten year-old child got up to some mischief with the ten year-old next door and your own kid is now in some very dangerous situation---let's say he has agreed to let himself be tied up on the railroad tracks where a train is due to pass in thirty minutes. You don't know exactly where. And only the ten year-old next door knows where he is, but that kid is scared to death to tell what he knows because he fears punishment. You may be able to force the child to tell if you can scare him badly enough. You want to save your child. And let's say that you are the only adult at home in either family---this is an emergency, and nobody but you can find out where your kid is.

So how far would you go with your neighbor's child? Would you threaten him with a gun? Cut him bit by bit with a knife? Pull out one of his teeth and threaten to pull one every five minutes until he tells? Mash his scrotum with a pair of pliers? Pour acid in one eye making him half-blind and threaten to pour some in the second eye making him totally blind, unless he tells? Force ipecac down his throat?

Are you feeling revolted yet? Are you saying that there are some things a decent person will not do, no matter what? Good. Then maybe you can begin to understand why those of us who still cling to the idea that the United States is a civilized country are against waterboarding, all forms of torture, a politicized Justice Department, and the Bush administration's extralegal adventures.

Lawyers
They're all lawyers and it is their nature to codify every action a human can take, thereby eliminating the need for judgement. THere it is in black and white. You can do this, but you can't do that.

You see, if we simply told those in charge to use their judgement, they could not be tried, as long as their actions were reasonable. And if they can't be tried, or sued successfully, then we wouldn't need lawyers...and that is the bottom line as to why they will never let us rest. Most lawyers are useless baggage who produce nothing, but who covet power and money, and to do that, they have to insert themselves into the lives of every American.

Through their surrogates, the insurance companies, we all pay their salaries.

lilly - you're pathetic
Even more pathetic are the idiots in charge of this country; because they are selling out our heritage.

What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of a lake? .....
A good start!

Lilly
You are way off,no matter how smart you think you are. I'll say it again. Imagine you are the US soldiers in the POW camp in Cabanatuan...you have been denied all the food, medicind that has been dropped in because the Japanese have stock-piled the stuff for themselves. All kinds of disease is being spread, and oops, you get caught trying to help a fellow soldier. XXXX. Do you think you are going to get a choice as to the kind of torture you will endure? That, BTW, will lead to your death, no ifs, ands, or buts. WWTF is wrong with people like you who want to protect and care for those who want us dead? The gitmo Prisoners were humiliated, not tortured. Get over it. And the things kids do are not analogous to an act of terror.

lilly writes: 07, 2007 12:18 AM
Lilly,

The other option is to offer the kid some ice cream or if you are out of ice cream to use waterboarding. Why do libtards always think in extremes like disfiguring people?

Consider that you happen to see your son is chained to the railroad track from your window. To free him from the chains you must cut off the bottom of his legs and arms and you hear the train coming. As a libtard, late for work at MoveOn.org do you refuse to do that because it is torture, better he die in one instant than suffer any pain to be extracted?

Now consider that some evil guy comes to your house waving a key and demands money to tell you were he chained your kid to the tracks, would you cut the guy’s legs and arms off to get the key and location to save your son? Instead of an evil man let us assume it is your neighbor’s kid that has the key and is demanding money would you cut his legs and arms? Let us assume he merely knows where the kid is would you do it?

In our legal system is not a party that has knowledge of a crime and withholds information guilty of a crime? What is the lesser of two evils pulling out some kids tooth who withhold info of the crime or you endorsing the killing on the tracks?

This is why libtards should be working at MoveOn.org and not be judges or even in law enforcement, let alone in charge of the military.

Did
someone fart? oh never mind i know what that smell is! People who come here and write this crap, well lets just say if they do hit again i hope its you and not me or mine!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com





Let the terrorists sweat it out
We are dealing with people who saw people's heads off for the heinous crime of attempting to restore electricity or feeding the hungry, yet will complain if not accorded five-star treatment as prisoners.
Our troops must be careful lest they speak too harshly to captured terrorist and hurt their feelings, yetthese people look on the prohiitions of the Geneva conventions as a list of suggestions.

another "hypothetical situation"

lilly: what if it's your entire family tied to the railroad tracks--by a psychopath?

The Liberal Solution
You must talk with the captives. Negotiate. Talk. Negotiate. Talk. Whoops, did I repeat myself? but that is what I thought I heard when listening to the Libs. A Jorge Bush nominee -- "...an exceptionally well-qualified judge named Michael Mukasey as the next attorney general..." It usually has taken Jorge a couple of tries to get it correct; so we shall see. So far, in that department Jorge has been completely a bust and with his record, it may continue.

Lilly
I'll bet if it was YOU tied to that railroad track, instead of someone's child, you would be singing a much different tune.


Say what?
Lilly to answer your question (which is a very stupid premise), I would probably sacrifice my child because the other party is my neighbor child. However, if these parties were adults, I would torture to save my family member. How woould you answer your own stupid premise? You truly lack any ability to THINK!

Whatever it takes to survive.
Life is not a theoretical exercise. It is real.

Some almost wish to assign grades to it, defining what is never permitted, as if it were an analytic case study with no relevance to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Theory only gets you so far. Reality does intrude.

And thank God it does. Communism was great in theory. Disastrous in practice.

Of course Greenberg is right. Context is everything. And sometimes reality must trump theory.

Would free peoples even exist if they refused to kill those who were killing them?

How any person who views himself as human can argue that he would not engage in "torture" if that were the only way to save himself, his family, his nation, is beyond me.

Such a person would be "a couple of cans short of a six-pack", to cite one of life's beloved activities...although my favorite alcoholic beverage, the "creme de la creme" of all beers, Warsteiner, is not even packaged as a six pack.

But you get my drift.

Stupid pills
Lilly took stupid pills again this morning. I would probably sacrifice my child to spare MY NEIGHBORS child - then I would sue the child's family for everything they had and ruin the entire family financially and let them suffer for the rest of their time on earth - oh wait, they would go on welfare and use my tax money - I don't win at all. So, let me reverse, I would torture the child to find out where mine was. What a stupid premise to begin with. Answer your own question Lilly, what would YOU do? And don't ask ME to save YOUR child! To compare children to terrorists and our country at war is really WAY far out!

Senators In Clean Suits
When Senator John McCain was held a prisoner of war for five years, was he wearing a nice clean suit and did he have clean fingernails? I suspect that a realistic picture of what Senator McCain looked like while he was being tortured in a Vietnamese prison would make Paul Greenberg throw up. How dare he include Senator McCain in his caricature of legislators opposing our use of torture? Let Greenberg be tortured for five years, as McCain was, then see how he feels about this issue. And McCain has clearly said, "No torture. It doesn't bring valid information and it exposes our own men to greater risk."

Anastasia writes:
Stupid pills? Well it’s that or we need to start sticking our fingers in their mouths to make sure they swallow their Meds.

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Hmm...
If simulated drowning is classified as torture, how would libs classify simulated sex? On a more serious note, I wish that folks like lilly & kindred souls would watch the video of Daniel Perl's demise in their evaluation how prisoners are treated. BTW, hypothetical positing is a highly fictionalized illogical form of analysis. As a friend of my father said "if ifs and buts were candy & nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas."

yea lilly
and to think that the people we are dealing with are 100 X worse than the people McQuack had to deal with, after all lilly, all they want to do is CUT OFF YOUR HEAD!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

On previous articles
I've made it pretty clear where I stand on torture, so, at the risk of being repetitive, and so Lilly will have no problem understanding my stance, here it is in final form without dressing and without future comment (so save name-calling, and self-righteousness):

1) I would do anything to anybody to protect my family.
2) I would do whatever necessary to protect our men and women in uniform.

but lilly would
if it was lilly on that track, and the train was to run her over in 30 minutes, then it would have been OK to torture the perp to extract that info...

Libs think logically only when it pertains to them.
Examples abound - KKennedy - no wind farm within my horizon!!!
A lib babe asked on TV: "if there should be no fence on our southern bordern, why there is a fence around your property?" (just an idiotic grin on her face was the answer)
No guns for average Americans!! - except armed guards for our elected "kings and queens"...

and so on... :(

Lilly
You ask if we would cut the kid to bits, pour acid in his eyes, crush his scrotum...but you never asked if we would waterboard him. Why?

cut and paste time...
Apologies for doing this but I posted this today on yesterday's Limbaugh thread, so I doubt if it will get read. But here are some overnight thoughts on torture...

Firstly, torture has a pretty appalling record of delivering reliable information. Consider perhaps the two best known uses of torture in the middle ages - the Inquisition and witch-hunting movements. Under torture, people confessed to some extraordinary things - things that we would now believe, quite rightly, to be impossible. Like taking the form of a black cat; like having sex with the devil; like casting spells on people or even I dare say turning people into newts. They made those confessions despite knowing that confessing would mean almost certain death - not just any old death either, a terrible death by being burned alive while tied to a stake. There may have been some people who were heretics, some who were involved in black magic - but the majority weren't guilty of anything other than being outsiders, non-conformists and political activists. Yet they confessed in vast numbers to crimes most had not committed. The only possible conclusion to draw from that is that people will say anything under torture, regardless of the consequences, just to stop the pain. The consequences of a confession nowadays may not include being burned at the stake, but life imprisonment without parole is still a pretty serious consequence.

More cutting and pasting...
I suspect the majority of people posting here would consider themselves christians. Maybe not all, but most. Yesterday, Mrs Paddy described what I had written on torture as sanctimonious. Well, if I am sanctimonious then Jesus must have been the most sanctimonious person who ever lived. I mean, going on about forgiving enemies, peace to all, turning the other cheek, loving his tormentors. Boy, what a sap eh?
Looking back at the early days of Christianity, it didn't win its ideological battle by stooping to the level of its Roman persecutors. OK, I'm not suggesting they should have set up their own games and fed Romans to the lions, but they could have kidnapped plenty of Romans and extracted their revenge by being equally cruel. But they didn't. The ideological battle was won by being better people than their persecutors, not matter what was done to them. Can anyone imagine how tough it must have been to follow the teachings of Jesus in the face of such provocation? I can't. But somehow they did it. By winning converts to christianity by showing that a better way of life was possible - one that valued life rather than death. That still has attractions today.
Christians cannot approve of torture because to do so goes against everything that Mr Santimonious himself, Jesus, taught. I've written before - who would Jesus torture? There is only one answer - no-one.

Lill's first post
Another strawman argument attempt. Irrelevant. Grade for debating class: F

CB
Nice to see you wasting time typing so much. The Roman Empire and the Inquisition have no relevance to today's war against Islamic terror. Your and other libs' attempts to define coercive interrogation techniques as torture and to equate them to the Nazis, the Inquisition and all other kinds of ludicrous analogies are simply - silly. You assume a false premise - "waterboarding is torture" - and then build a strawman house of sand on this false premise. FYI, most Americans are against torture but at the same time we support coercive interrogation techniques such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation, forced standing, subjection to loud Barry Manilow "music", etc, particularly against illegal combatants (not POWs, as you also falsely claim) whose mission in life is to destroy the civilized world.

We are facing real danger...
in that many libtards want to make war a legal venture with judges, courts, and trials for anyone we take into custody. Traditionally and in accordance with international law we have held POWs until the war ends. The libtards want to provide them with free access to the courts which means the military will have to justify their custody and there is a possibility of letting them go. The other problem is they want to do the same thing for unlawful combatants. they want to provide 'rights' to POWs and other captives that our own soldiers would not be afforded. They have in essence taken sides againts their country and their own military.

Chopper John
I think I will call you a name anyways, Sensible

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Here we sit surrounded by
Here we sit surrounded by luxuries unimagined by much of the world and certainly our ancestors. We are spoiled. So it is easy to take some mythical, what we have convinced ourselves to be, moral high ground.

Ah, but their is the rub. It is easy to talk about hypothetically of high morals and a kid not telling where he tied his friend up to meet his impending doom. Yet we are not talking about saving a single person's life because someone did something stupid we are talking about using what ever means necessary to prevent thousands if not millions from certain death and if they survive a long suffering illness of radiation poisoning.

Torture is only horrible if the mental and physical scars of torture last a long time and permanently change a person.Yet who would ultimately be tortured most, an operative who knows and will not tell so as to prevent something horrible or their captors who decided it is morally unacceptable to use any means necessary to stop the deaths of tens of thousands innocents just living their lives.

It is clear that the left talks a good story about high morals and opposing torture of any means to obtain critical information. Yet as they talk naively about such morals millions of us, including themselves are placed at risk.

Oh that's right it was all an inside job and those that tell us they hate us and wish to destroy us are just misunderstood and don't really mean it. How foolish we must look to the Bin Ladens and Zawahiris.

buzzcat
Well, at least I cut and pasted them rather than re-writing them... but the point I was making is that torture doesn't work, and the period in history in which torture is being used is irrelevant. I was making a point about the nature of torture and the results it produces. And if you aren't a christian then the point about rome doesn't amount to a hill of beans to you - fine, but it was addressed to those people who would consider themselves Christian. I'm not against coercive interrogation, but I am against torture. Waterboarding is without doubt torture.

and buzzkat
are you trying to claim that torturing prisoners, or illegal combatants or whatever euphemism you want to use, does fit with the teachings of Jesus? I'd like some further explanation on that one. What do you reckon old JC would have used? Thumbscrews? Nah, he would probably be a bit sensitive about hand injuries. Barry Manilow? Nah, too Jewish. I really don't know, but I guess you are about to enlighten me on how torture fits in neatly with Jesus's teachings, so I'll wait to see what your thoughts are...

Well CB
I believe in God, but I don’t attend Church so I don’t know if you would call me a Christian, BUT
I would waterboard 1000 of the arsewipes to prevent another 9-11 and I also believe any who think we can fight this war without it, really does not care about or remember the people jumping out of the windows on 9-11 Not my family or my country men and women. Not on my watch.

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Doc
Torture is not justified because of 9/11, but to imply that I don't care about those people who died because I won't support torture is nonsense. You're supporting the wrong candidate - it's Rudy who ties everything to 9/11 not Tancredo. This war, whatever it is, can be fought without it. In fact I would say that because this is an ideological war rather than a conventional one, sticking to what has made the western lifestyle the envy of the world - our freedoms, our politics, our economics, and our sense of what is right and what is wrong - is even more important than ever.

For Queasy Libs on this thread.
__The fact is the U.S. does not torture to inflict any bodily impairment. This waterboarding example was brought to the forefront by the left playing on your self-loving passions. A hangnail is torture to you, and you would probably take a sick day because of it. You will embrace Senator McCain's statement on torture, and blindly run with it, because you have no idea of its context. Our enemy then, and now, will resort to techniques during interogation, without concern for results that may occur. McCain knows this, and his statement against use of torture reflects that knowledge. I'm sure, it was not a statement reflecting the use of needed, coercive, techniques developed to compel a response from a prisoner of war. A dead, or impaired, POW is of no use, and our military commanders do not want to inflict any damage that is against their ability to retrieve information.

CB WRITES:
Torture is not justified

not all, but this is!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com



Why is it...
... that when we see kidnapped or captured western soldiers or civilians "confessing" to crimes on tapes released by their captors, we instantly dismiss their confessions because they say they were tortured. Fair enough, they most probably were. We know torture produces false confessions. Yet you all seem very keen to try it out on anyone we capture and eagerly lap up the results. Like our torture gets better results or something? It doesn't make sense.

Ghost Stories
I get such a kick out of the way the moonbats like lilly create their own fictional scenarios simply to set up the rules of their own game. Then they try to intellectualize and rationalize their own mantra without regard to anything real, just the ghost story they have spun.

Seeing those aircraft pile into the the WTC doesn't seem to have left a lasting impression with nitwits like this...

Woody

If some kidnapper or terrorist had my
son and/or his family, and I had the opportunity, I would go Jack Bauer and use ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.

Excactly, the same way Democrats approach elections.

Conjecture all you want
The world already has agreement on torture.

The Geneva Convention.

This year's biggest feast
If you want to continue to feed terrorism, let's
have a repeat of the Iranian President's visit
to the United States. And I don't mean to
suggest that the invitation was the problem.

His reception was the Problem. And somewhere along the line we will pay for it big time.

One of the very first principles of Muslim/Arab
politeness is that when a person is a guest in
your home (whether that guest is a friend, stranger, or enemy) you will be hospitable. You will feed the guest and his horses/camels and house them if necessary and in every way treat them
with respect. Once, the guest has left the
safety of your house, it is business as usual. But never before that time. Otherwise, it not
only disgraces the guest but yourself as well.

Columbia's President committed the unpardonable
sin here, by inviting him to speak at the
University and then belittling him while he was
there.

Aminaj.... won't forget that.

How has the captured terrorist become
a POW with the same rights and privledges as a soldier, in uniform, fighting for his country? It boggles my mind that the whole torture scenario is being played out for terrorists. They have no allegeance, otherwise they would fight in uniform, and they only wish death, as painful as possible, for all their victims. We are not fighting a conventional war, so conventional regulations must be suspended. This whole debate is ridiculous.

Politics!
The art of pointing out the meaningless and obvious to scare the hell out of the stupid.

Waterboard the living H--- out of them
Some sandal-wearing Muj suspected to have information on a possible attack on the base where my kid is stationed had better not dry out for a month. Geneva Convention my butt. That's for uniformed combatants, not terrorists who use women and children as shields.

Doc
or is that Bdm3!!

It boggles my mind that the whole torture scenario is being played out for terrorists. They have no allegeance, otherwise they would fight in uniform, and they only wish death, as painful as possible, for all their victims. We are not fighting a conventional war, so conventional regulations must be suspended. This whole debate is ridiculous.

******

The point is not about the terrorists. It is
about who we are. Got that. Or can't you grasp
that concept.

Get Real!!!
Waterboarding,sexual humiliation, horrible rap music blasted at you 24/7 is not torture (well maybe the last one is)and in fact sounds more like the hazing rituals many experience in college to get into fraternities. None leave permanent physical damage and rarely any emotional damage either, just great discomfort which most people cannot tolerate.

Navy Seals go through much worse in their training and it helps prepare them for what their barbaric captors will do if they are taken prisoner---waterboarding, etc. is nothing compared to the real torture that the Islamo-nazis will apply.

BTW, waterboarding was instrumental in getting Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11 to spill his guts about everything he knew. Don't you feel sorry for him??

One more thing, every president since FDR has authorized certain extreme interrrogation techniques, short of real torture, to extract vital information and protect national security--this include Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

I didn't get it!
lilly writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 12:18 AM
"Hypothetical Situation.... waterboarding, all forms of torture".

You said the child was going to die, right? You said you had the person with the information to save the childs life, right?

It is called succumb to the fourth degree. In the finest tradition of the leftists, just call it something else.

Quick definitions (succumb):
verb: be fatally overwhelmed
verb: consent reluctantly




lilly, if that didn't work...
...I'd send him to your house!

Off with their heads!
It's amazing that, while dealing with an enemy that kidnaps innocent people and cuts off their heads on film, there are so many bleeding heart idiots that rail against depriving those same unspeakable monsters of a few hours sleep.

A common sense approach
Paul Greenberg says: "Such questions are why we have judges and courts and the saving common law - to weigh the context of each case"

Agreed.
The problem is that with Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, Bush didn't involve judges and courts. As far as we can tell, KSM was waterboarded by our agents without any court order. And without any legislation from Congress authorizing (or not authorizing) the practice.

And that's what I object to: the decision by an arbitrary decision of the Executive Branch of government alone, to employ coercive interrogation methods.

If the need for waterboarding a detainee is so obvious, then the Executive Branch should be able to get concurrence from one of the other branches of government. Either a Federal judge, or the Speaker of the House and Senate Majority Leader, should have to sign off on it, much as we do with warrants for wiretapping. Otherwise it shouldn't get done.

There are always two reasons for the Executive Branch to keep something secret: The legitimate reason is they don't want to tip off the enemy. The illegitimate reason is that they're ashamed of what they are doing.

It will take
another attack and numerous lost lives and property for this entire arguement to be irrelvant.

Just got back
from watching the Blues Angels practice. You folks in San Francisco know who I'm talking about; that horrible, despicable, aggressive US Military flight demonstration team. God, they're terrific!

for lilly
lilly writes: " Are you feeling revolted yet? Are you saying that there are some things a decent person will not do, no matter what?"

No, Lilly.
Because there are some things I would happily do to Khaled Sheikh Mohammed that I would NEVER do to a nice child.

The problem with your argument is you have assumed moral equivalence between the detainee and the possible victim of the tragedy. That's reasonable when both are children. But if the detainee is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed vs. the victims being children (as they were in the Beslan attack), it's easy to tell which of them is more worthy of being saved.

We're at war, Lilly. And when you go to war, you are making the implicit decision that your lives are worth more than those of the enemy.

Believe me, I would be tempted to torture Osama bin Laden even after he had no more information to reveal. Just for the fun of it.


Rights and responsability
Doc writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 10:47 AM
"How has the captured terrorist become
a POW with the same rights and privledges as a soldier".

The same "rights" means the same penalty. If you research the rules covering those captured on the battlefield, underarms, out of uniform, you will see the terrorists are getting a break.

Steve L.
You gotta be kidding---consult with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid before submitting a terrorist to waterboarding---they are tow of the terrorists best friends in America.

Why we call the leftists crazy!
Critical Bill writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 9:55 AM
Why is it we "instantly dismiss their confessions".

I have never seen a "confession" in the terrorist tapes that was a "cofession" of a crime. We do not in"terror"gate to get confessions to crimes. We want information to win a war.

Your right!
sonofsam writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 10:18 AM "The world already has agreement on torture....the Geneva Convention."

The winner imposes the penalty on the loser. We had better win.

The "Geneva Convention" is written so that even Hitler could have used it to try and execute FDR.

The leftists feel vindicated by their twist of reality and the meaning of words they construct in their own little words and minds.

Lily-Robert-LiberalShill-Other Idiots
They KILL our soldiers, is that worse than torture? Take off your Burka before you answer! Waterboarding IS NOT DROWNING someone, it is MAKING THEM THINK they are drowning.

Critical Bill...
I'm not endorsing torture by saying the following: Torture works.

Ever seen the movie "The Battle of Algiers"? Its depiction of the use of torture to get factual information that can be effectively used against your enemy is completely accurate. There are a million other examples, but that movie sums it up most effectively for people who don't like to do a lot of research and reading.

Your example about getting false confessions out of people via torture is a straw man.

There are plenty of reasons to condemn the use of torture. Contending that it doesn't work isn't one of them.

The ugly American
viruddh writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 10:45 AM "Columbia's President committed the unpardonable sin here, by inviting him to speak at the University and then belittling him while he was there..... Aminaj (sic) won't forget that."

In the finest tradition of the "intervention", you invite a "guest" to a coming to Jesus moment. If "Amina(sic)" wants to come to our country, he should familiarize himself with our culture.

Lemonade writes:
"The point is not about the terrorists. It is
about who we are. Got that. Or can't you grasp
that concept."

The concept is simple, terrorists will stop at nothing. They want us dead, the most gruesome way, the better. These are not decent folks fighting for their country. If they have information, we must proceed decisively, diligently, and effectively. What don't you get? It's about the security of our nation. Civility is suspended when the terrorist will do anything to destroy this great nation. It does not take extremely punishing techniques to get results. Interrogators have learned this. But, if you are going to outlaw waterboarding, the next thing you will want is to outlaw is putting them in carceration. You libs are only out to stop Bush at all costs. You care little about the this great nation. Your hatred for Bush has consummed all sensibilities.

ET1 / badboy
ET1 - I'm not sure there is any difference. How many times have we seen Western aid workers kidnapped and then subsequently making confessions to various crimes? And soliders too. Then when their release is noegotiated, they say that they only confessed because they were tortured. Which we accept willingly. After all, confessions extracted under duress are bogus. But you think that a terrorist tortured by our side will give accurate information? Why? Is waterboarding so terrifying that it works every time? Are our torturers that more terrifying and skilled than theirs? They'll chop your head off. That's worse, for most people, than a one way ticket to Guantanamo Bay. But you think it'll work for us? That's lunacy.
And badboy, no I haven't seen your film. I haven't even seen perhaps the most famous torture movie, Marathon Man. But that's the movies; it may work from time to time, I don't disagree with that. But in the overwhelming number of cases torture produces false confessions and duff information, because people will say anything under torture to end the pain. It's totally unreliable. How is what I have written a "straw man"? That seems to be the argument you people fall back on every time, it's like some annoying all-encompassing catch phrase. You can't answer the argument so you call it a straw man. How on earth is it a straw man? Torture does not, in general, produce reliable information, as evidenced by the confessions of all of those westerners whose videos are posted on the web and broadcast on Al Jazeera. Arguing that a movie showed how reliable torture is is laughable...

Doc writes:
on your Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 10:47 AM
post,
I am not sure why TH let us both have the same name, but I SURE am glad we agree on things!
LoL

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

lilly
we are continually tortured with reading your inane comments. You are lucky that stupidity isn't a criminal offense, you would be serving serious time in a state institution.

I love the way
libs keeping saying that torture doesn't work. Have any of them ever worked for the CIA? The FBI? When was the last time one of them interrogated a terrorist. How much experience do they have in international security or espionage?

Sit there in your easy chair and tell all the rest of us how to protect this country. If you're all so smart, why aren't you the commander in chief?

Lemonade
sorry no, I believe in fighting fire WITH fire. As stated earlier, I do not bring knives to gunfights! But you keep drinking the kool-aide and I’ll keep cleaning my guns. You’ll thank me later!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Doc, Patriotdefender and others
"That, BTW, will lead to your death, no ifs, ands, or buts. WWTF is wrong with people like you who want to protect and care for those who want us dead? "

As I said to Doc and now to you Patriotdefender,
it is not about the terrorists, it is about who
we are. And who you think we should be makes me want to puke. By the way PDF, you are describing
what we should do to others because someone else
has or will do it to us. Is that the Golden Rule
you grew up with?

Try this one - what you sow, so shall you reap.

Doc
Since you claim that there are two docs on this
website, why don't you just go back to being
bdm3 and drop the charade.

Lemonade
OK maybe you have had too much kool-aide WTF are you talking about?

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

The definition of torture is that
it causes irreparable mental and physical damage. Waterboarding does none of that...unfortunately.

motley
what we need to do is what the russians threatened to do to the terrorists and what I always thought the israelis should also do. The terrorists commit some atrocity and then they always parade around the traitor or his family. You take matters into hand. You go after the family. You take care of everybody in the family, the cats, the dogs, the parakeet and for good measure blow up the car and the house. Later rather than sooner the killers will finally start to get the message they are all at risk for the actions of their offspring. Terrorists won't stop until they understand there a a real consequence to sending jr osama out to kill

Lily
You really make me sick with all your stupid hypothetical drivel. If some kid tied my kid to the railroad tracks and wouldn't talk, yep I would smash his scrotum (OUCH) Wouldn't hurt as much as the train hitting my kid though. You are a real idiot.

Sounds Like Christmas at Lilly's House
"Mash his scrotum with a pair of pliers..."

Man, where does she come up with this stuff? I think the best form of torture for the child would be the knowledge that he had Lilly as a babysitter until he turned 18...that will get him talking.

Honestly and in all seriousness, if our country, our citizens and our allies lives were at stake, and we had in our custody a terrorist who could give us important intel to save us....Get the waterboard, get the pliers. I wouldn't dare risk the safety of millions of people so I can feel like a pious do-gooder snot and not touch a hair on a killer's head.

How else do we get intel when every seconds counts? Give them a gift basket from Harry and David? Rub their feet? Play soft music and dim the lights? We're not trying to convince a date to open up about themselves, people! We're dealing with insane illogical murderers.

Shells writes:
I think the best form of torture for the child would be the knowledge that he had Lilly as a babysitter until he turned 18...that will get him talking.

Hey! I only agreed with torture that left no physical or emotional scars! This WOULD BE cruel and unusual punishment!!!

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

About 7yrs. ago the Animal Channel

did a program about people who own wild animals, such as lions and tigers, etc.

One women was interviewed whose 7yr. old daughter had been killed by one of her pet-cats, actually said, “It never occurred to me that any of my cats would do such a thing.”

“Umm,” I thought to myself, “I’m kind of thinking that any 7yr. old child would kind of look like prey to any large cat, and the cat was probably thinking, ‘There’s LUNCH!’”

I share this true story because it occurred to me that “Stupid Jail” might just be a GOOD idea.

We obviously have people walking around, who, while they haven’t done anything criminal, are just too stupid to be walking around without adult supervision, and are indeed a danger to themselves and others.

With all due respect, lilly is surely a candidate for “Stupid Jail.”






M Sederoff
"I love the way
libs keeping saying that torture doesn't work. Have any of them ever worked for the CIA? The FBI? When was the last time one of them interrogated a terrorist. How much experience do they have in international security or espionage? "

"Tony Lagouranis, a former Army interrogator in Iraq, said, “In Iraq, I never saw pain produce intelligence…if anything, physical pain can strengthen the resolve to clam up.”

"By mid-2002, several former [FBI] agents and senior bureau officials said, they had begun complaining that the CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture and was going to create significant problems down the road

CIA director Michael Hayden, who has reportedly banned waterboarding from CIA terror interrogations.

Christianity
The thing that gets me, is tomorrow ,or next week, this site will have a post on how evil the Left is and what Christians they are.

Actually, the jury is still out on water

-boarding!

But I’ll go on record saying that if my family was in danger of being killed or hurt by anyone… ANYONE, I wouldn’t hesitate to do WHATEVER I could do to stop it.

I’d even probably do whatever I could to protect my ex-husband because he is my children’s’ father. (His bimbo wife… maybe not!) :-)




2 Docs are better than 1
Concerning the lemonade sipper, I am not saying we should resort to outrageous methods, methods that would indicate savagery on the part of Americans. We don't need to stoop to the level of the terrorists but, if there is a clear and present danger of many good people being killed by these demons, we need to resort to effective means. At the moment, the military has discovered they can do it with waterboarding. Unfortunately, since the looney left, in their blinding hatred for Bush and conservatives, they have once again let the cat out of the bag. These are are homegrown terrorists, idiots from the 60's who want it everyway. They are totally unscrupulous in their behavior. Long prison terms should be the norm for these unAmericans. Since they won't leave, we should afford them proper housing!

Glad you feel the same, Doc!

it's just simulated torture.....
In THIS WAR being a captured American usually means you're wounded, then beaten and tortured till you die then they emasculate you and put your genitals in your mouth before they drag your corpse through the streets gleefully until they finally set you ablaze and hoist you from a bridge. And it's all taped and put on YouTube for all the world to see.

I would gladly VOLUNTEER MYSELF to be waterboarded, scared with a dog, made to wear panties on my head, etc., etc., if it meant stopping the death of ONE U.S. SOLDIER...I can ask no less of the enemies of the country I love...



Doc or no wait...medoc writes:
Works for me on an as necessary basis, and i think our Intel community knows who they are!
This Doc from Indiana, you?

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Just wondering
What would an Imam in the Islam religion suggest? In order for one of these terrorist to go to their heaven, they have to earn it. Hell, torture should be an honor to have bestowed to them; the more they get the higher they climb to their Allah land. Languishing away in a liberal inspired prison should get them no further up than a snake’s butt-hole.

The 7 Percent solution
Critical Bill writes: Wednesday, November, 07, 2007 12:45 PM
ET1 / badboy
"you think that a terrorist tortured by our side will give accurate information?"

Take a dead man, put him in a naval uniform, chain a brief case to his wrist, place fake documents in the brief case. Then cast that dead body into the ocean.

What do you get? Disinformation and an army anchored to a fixed postion.

Do you think a terrorist who has been trained to expect torture is not going to expect torture?

Do you think the anti-war left is not helping our collection efforts?

If not, you don't know syops. Just get into a room with a terrorist and say things such as, "Well I don't want to go to jail", "Well, we can't let him go", We need that info, It's just his bad luck", "We had better not let anyone find out", "I can live with it, how about you?"
"You read to much you shouldn't beleive"

torture is immoral
The Rule of Law is fundamental to our existence as a civilized nation. The Rule of Law is not a goal which we merely aspire to achieve; it is the floor below which we must not sink. For the Rule of Law to function effectively, however, it must provide actual rules yhat can be followed. In this instance, the relevant rule - the law - as long been clear: Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise - or even to give credence to such a suggestion - represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.

We respectfully urge you to consider these principles in connection with the nomination of Judge Mukasey.

Sincerely,

Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02

Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000

Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.)
Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93

Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.)
Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88

Don't Worry, Critical Bill,
I and thousands of others are ready to do violence on YOUR behalf so that you can sleep peacefully tonight . . .

Sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite . . .

Lilly, you're comparing
apples to oranges. Your analogy cannot be applied to the war on terrror and (supposed) torture because children are more easily coerced/compelled to spill the beans

THAN SOME FANATIC READY TO CUT OFF HEADS AND BLOW HIMSELF UP IN A CROWD OF PEOPLE!!

Get real, why don't you?

Also, I've been through SERE school. Put up with a lot worse than what happened at Abu Ghraib. You liberals kill me.

MarineDad, Anna and others
I want everything done to protect our military.

Would I do it myself? You better believe it!

Lilly
your hypothetical is very unrealistic, but here on Earth we are dealing with terrorist, (not you, you complain about what the people that are protecting the freedom you enjoy do). If one of these terrorist you are so interested in defending just may know so critical info that could stop an attack and prevent the loss of innocent life, are you willing to let them die with out doing all you could to get the info?

I hope the defense of this country never gets down to the likes of you.

Chief Justice, John Jay
Paul Greenberg says,

why we have judges and courts and the saving common law - to weigh the context of each case rather than pretend we can foresee each and every circumstance that will arise and draw up rules and regulations to cover every one of them
========

Our first Chief Justice, John Jay, told jurors: "You have a right to take upon yourselves to judge both the facts and law."

In 1805, one of the charges against Justice Samuel Chase in his impeachment trial was that he wrongly prevented an attorney from arguing to a jury that the law should not be followed. The case concerned the charge of treason, the court ruled the jury decides, not the judge or the legislature.

Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts said, “Judges are not just bureaucrats or umpires, they are, and should be righters of wrongs.”

Once a jury returns a verdict of "Not Guilty," that verdict cannot be questioned by any court and the "double jeopardy" clause of the Constitution prohibits a retrial on the same charge.

Do whatever it takes
and don't tell a soul what you will do or have done. IF IT SAVES ONE LIFE, it's worth it.

Re: Lilly's comment 11/7/07 at 12:18 AM
Lilly, you have to be an idiot. With your wailing, you make the case made by Paul Greenberg and still try to have it both ways by saying "those of us who believe the U.S. is civilized do not accept torture." Didn't you read Greenberg's column with your brain engaged? We can all agree that torture, without considering certain few cases, is not justified. But, that's not your aim, is it? No, your aim, as it always is, is to simply flog your favorite target - the hated Bush. God, you must be an unhappy wretch. Everything you do is through the prism of finding another way to attack George W. Bush.

Two things
How many people posting here find the terrorist
Muslims absolutely contemptible and then turn
around and suggest that we be just like them?

Have we nothing better to offer than they do?

Second thing: How many people posting here
have made postings elsewhere about those awful
illegal aliens, but find Illegal torturing just
fine and dandy?

tortured lies
In a CIA sub-station close to al Libi's jail cell, the CIA's "debriefers," who had been talking to al Libi for days after his return from Cairo, were typing out a series of operational cables to be sent Feb. 4 and Feb. 5 to the CIA Headquarters in Langley, Va. In the view of some insiders, these cables provide the "smoking gun" on the whole rendition program -- a convincing account of how the rendition program was, they say, illegally sending prisoners into the hands of torturers.

Under torture after his rendition to Egypt, al Libi had provided a confession of how Saddam Hussein had been training al Qaeda in chemical weapons. This evidence was used by Colin Powell at the United Nations a year earlier (February 2003) to justify the war in Iraq. ("I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these [chemical and biological] weapons to al Qaeda," Powell said. "Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story.")

But now, hearing how the information was obtained, the CIA was soon to retract all this intelligence. A Feb. 5 cable records that al Libi was told by a "foreign government service" (Egypt) that: "the next topic was al-Qa'ida's connections with Iraq...This was a subject about which he said he knew nothing and had difficulty even coming up with a story."


tortured lies part 2
Al Libi indicated that his interrogators did not like his responses and then "placed him in a small box approximately 50cm X 50cm [20 inches x 20 inches]." He claimed he was held in the box for approximately 17 hours. When he was let out of the box, al Libi claims that he was given a last opportunity to "tell the truth." When al Libi did not satisfy the interrogator, al Libi claimed that "he was knocked over with an arm thrust across his chest and he fell on his back." Al Libi told CIA debriefers that he then "was punched for 15 minutes." (Sourced to CIA cable, Feb. 5, 2004).

Here was a cable then that informed Washington that one of the key pieces of evidence for the Iraq war -- the al Qaeda/Iraq link -- was not only false but extracted by effectively burying a prisoner alive.

Although there have been claims about torture inflicted on those rendered by the CIA to countries like Egypt, Syria, Morocco and Uzbekistan, this is the first clear example of such torture detailed in an official government document.

The information came almost one year before the president and other administration members first began to confirm the existence of the CIA rendition program, assuring the nation that "torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture." (New York Times, Jan. 28, 2005)

Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.