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Friday, November 02, 2007
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Shocking: Scientist Commits Heresy
by Paul Greenberg
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Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

- John Adams

I almost spilled my coffee. I just stood there, dumbstruck right in my own kitchen. Flipping through the Wall Street Journal the other morning while waiting for the oatmeal to cool, my eye was caught by an article I had to read all the way through - then and there. It was the text of an interview with the latest Nobel Prize laureate. No, not the one named Al Gore.

Few may have noticed, but Mr. Gore shared this year's Nobel Peace Prize with a real scientist, or rather a whole slew of them on the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That group's work is as unglamorous as its bureaucratic name. It's never even made a horror film (GLOBAL WARNING!) about the earth's being inundated as the polar icecaps melt.

This international panel just plods along trying to find out what's really going on with the climate. Facts are stubborn things, as dour John Adams once noted, and it takes a lot of patient research to find and evaluate them, then suggest an appropriate response. It's about as exciting as bookkeeping.

Being an alarmist is a lot easier; some politicians and pamphleteers make highly successful careers of it. Real scientists may not be pleased by the sensationalism that envelops the whole subject of global warming. But if they speak up, they could be labeled heretics and exiled to the farthest reaches of academic opprobrium. For global warming has become more of a fighting faith than a topic for calm analysis. Disagree and you're liable to be called not just wrong but anti-science. Today it is the ultimate heresy.

One of the scientific dissenters is John Christy, a member of both the UN panel and the University of Alabama's faculty. (He's the director of that university's Earth System Science Center.) In a break with tradition, Dr. Christy declined to perform the traditional pas de deux of mutual flattery when Nobel laureates share the same prize. Not when Al Gore's may be the first on record awarded essentially for the kind of PR that comes too close to being propaganda. It makes you wonder what propagandist will get it next year - Michael Moore?

It turns out there are indeed reasonable things to be said about global warming - and on television at that. I was amazed. The transcript of Dr. Christy's interview with CNN's Miles O'Brien is worth reading: (Just set down your coffee cup first.)

Miles O'Brien: I assume you're not happy about sharing this award with Al Gore. You going to renounce it in some way?

John Christy: Well, as a scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, I always thought that - I may sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas here - that prizes were given for performance, and not for promotional activities. And, when I look at the world, I see that the carbon dioxide rate is increasing, and energy demand, of course, is increasing. And that's because, without energy, life is brutal and short. So, I don't see very much effect in trying to scare people into not using energy, when it is the very basis of how we can live in our society.

O'Brien: So, what about the movie ("An Inconvenient Truth") do you take issue with, then, Dr. Christy?

Christy: Well, there's any number of things. I suppose, fundamentally, it's the fact that someone is speaking about a science that I have been very heavily involved with and have labored so hard in, and been humiliated by, in the sense that the climate is so difficult to understand, Mother Nature is so complex, and so the uncertainties are great, and then to hear someone speak with such certainty and such confidence about what the climate is going to do is - well, I suppose I could be kind and say, it's annoying to me.

O'Brien: But you just got through saying that the carbon dioxide levels are up. Temperatures are going up. There is a certain degree of certainty that goes along with that, right?

Christy: Well, the carbon dioxide is going up. And remember that carbon dioxide is plant food in the fundamental sense. All of life depends on the fact carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere. So, we're fortunate it's not a toxic gas. But, on the other hand, what is the climate doing? And when we build - and I'm one of the few people in the world that actually builds these climate data sets - we don't see the catastrophic changes that are being promoted all over the place. For example, I suppose CNN did not announce two weeks ago when the Antarctic sea ice extent reached its all-time maximum, even though, in the Arctic in the North Pole, it reached its all-time minimum.

And so heretically on. There are others like Dr. Christy out there in the scientific community who don't believe the best way to approach science is in a panic.

For example, Daniel Botkin of the University of California's Center for the Study of the Environment. His is an opinion some of us mere laymen may share: "My concern is that we may be moving away from an irrational lack of concern about climate change to an equally irrational panic about it."

The planet does seem to be returning to one of its warmer phases, but the extent, cause and response to that phenomenon should be a matter for analysis and discussion, not frenzy.

It's as if we've forgotten that the first qualification for doing science may be a certain skepticism. I come by mine naturally when the subject is global warming, for I can remember being taught in school not that the planet is warming but that another ice age is almost upon us. It was a widespread assumption at the time taught as scientific fact. There was no doubt about it. All the scientists agreed. It said so right there in the book. I must have missed it somewhere along the way.

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Common Sense should prevail... unless...
Most people who have any common sense can see that the climate is changing. And common sense tells us that there are too many variables present in our biosphere to blame these changes on only ONE of these variables (namely human activity and population growth).

But common sense will never prevail with those who have a political agenda. The facts don't matter; the implementation of policy matters. If the facts get in the way, then the facts must be changed. Thank you, Al Gore.

And thank you Mr. Greenberg for your small helping of common sense read over MY oatmeal (weird schedule, I know).

Yep!
The ultimate conceit of these fanatics is that global warming and climactic cycling is caused by mankind. We are so ULTIMATELY powerful that we determine the geo-climactic structure of the entire planet, according to these tinfoil hatters.

First of all, in order to buy into this bushwah, you have to believe that by nature Earth's climate is a static system. This is so childish you may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Why was the planet going through major and radical climactic cycling loooooong before Man was even here, and loooooooong before the first SUV rolled off the assembly line?


Here in LA, a mere few thousand years ago, the whole area was under many feet of permanent sheet ice, and woolly mammoths and sabre-tooth cats roamed all over the place.

Thank God for global warming! It was 80 degrees here and sunny today, and not a mammoth in sight to screw up the already terrible traffic.



Oh, and, uh, by the way....... how come Mars is ALSO going through a significant warming cycle at the same time? We sending space ships full of car exhaust there, or what?


Reference
Go to your local library and find Newsweek for August 13. Its cover article details chapter and verse about how the energy industry paid for and choreographed a huge campaign to create doubt and confusion about global warming. It names names and gives dollar amounts (as in, amounts paid to scientists who would write anti-warming articles).


Lilly...
...good to see you providing comic relief as usual. What you did not mention is who is financing the global alarmists. It is our tax dollars. And, as many scientists have come out to say, unless you toe Al Gore's line, your grants happen to dry up. In other words, if you don't play the game (toe the global alarmist line), they take your financial ball.

It doesn't matter who funds what. What matters is the science. Or, in Al Gore and the alarmists case, the lack of science. Rather, it seems more like blind faith. What else would you call "science" that squelches free inquiry and instead tries to pass itself off as "concensus".

The more one studies this subject, the more obvious it becomes that the watermelons (green on the outside, red on the inside) are using this at every opportunity to attempt to control the activities of all mankind. It is plainly obvious that, particularly in the case of the global warmists, that Hayek was right. The leftist global alarmists are beating the drum to infuse greater governmental and international NGO control over our lives, all on the Road to Serfdom.

I find it interesting that mankind's history has been that of trying to throw off royal/governmental/communist/socialist despotic rule over individuals. Yet today, the democrat party is fighting to remove individual freedoms at an alarming rate, through confiscatory taxation (Hillary and the democrat tax plan Rangel unveiled), business destroying mandates and controls (healthcare, electricity, gas/oil, logging), and the utter devastation of the education system from grammer school to college.

Why is it democrats want to control our lives? And, why is the regular democrat (the ones that are not vampire fanged for power) willing to acquiesce?

Thanks, Think People
for a great line; watermelons. I can't wait to use it on a liberal friend.

More troubling for me is that it's not only democrats who willingly surrender more liberties and freedom every day, but many republicans as well.

The cynic in me tends to believe our march to socialism is inexorable. The optomist says the pendulum will swing the other way someday soon.

Here's a toast to the optomist.

COW FLATULENCE
This is all a scheme by Albert, I know he just invested in a plug factory and he will sell million's of plug's to seal up all the world's volcano's and cow's bum's to rid the world of harmful gases. I would prefer cow flatulence over the like's of Albert and the Lilly's of the world, they smell better. If albert was so concerned about the environment, he might want to do something while he is the secondmost powerful man in America. Why the wait? He had to get all his fact's straight before he unstraightened them. He has alway's been a liar and his need for attention is pathetic, will the next Jayson Blair, Michael Moore and Al Gore please stand up. His nobel prize is as deserved as Jimmy Carter for middle east peace, Great job. Oh, atheist's suck. Don't forget to blame America first.

News Flash!
The infestation is complete; PC has now tarnished science at every level from elementary school through to Noble Prizes!

Scientists have estimated the sun will turn into a Red Giant, engulfing the earth, in approximately 5.5 billion years! We’re doomed I tell you, doomed!

Wait! Maybe someone can turn this into a PC event and spin a Noble Prize off of it?

http://klintons.com

A classic example of...
..."Political Science" trumping "Natural Science".When our scientists depend on politicians for thier work,why is it surprising that politics,ideology,and hype,elbow out common sense?

Think People!: Good post!

You liars & babies
I notice that when this topic one side lies by blatant omission, and the other side exaggerates and has some impractical ideas of what to do.

The first group are liars, Gore haters, right wing corporate suck ups. The correlation with temp & Greenhouse gas is scientifically & statistically significant. There’s irrefutable evidence temps going up and it’s not normal. The nay sayers say it’s normal cycles going back 1000's of years. In the same breath they claim weather records are not reliable. Core samples & SCIENCE proves climate change & green house gas correlation.

Deniers of climate change have no ideas either but just rhetoric that some how it’s all normal and nothing needs to be done. This ignores LOCAL pollution is a "BAD THING". It ignores getting off Arab OIL is goodness for economy, health & national/global security, i.e., middle finger to the Mid East.

As a kid in 1970's LA, we had smog days where we couldn’t play outside. An autopsy of lungs would show how long a non-smoker lived in LA.

The argument the Chinese are polluting more is MOOT. Yes they need to get their act together, but all the things we can do will benefit us, regardless of China.

The SECOND GROUP, left wing Green Peace'ers say the Oceans will raise 35 feet when it might be 35 inches. This group wants to go back to the turn of the last century minus trains. Gore & his big house & jet rides is hypocrisy, OK. However people that do walk the walk should be applauded.

Nuclear (or Nuclur for Bush), wind, solar, alternative fuels, increased efficiency and DARE SAY conservation. means in 20 years we tell the Arabs to suck it. Sadly both sides are whinny babies and can’t work together and don’t have Gov leadership.

You want more WAR for OIL? We need to do something NOW. It means working together to solve the problem. WE DO HAVE A PROBLEM & the far right needs to get over denying it. Let's make Lemonade out of lemons.

A movie coming our way
I don't remember the name, but it was previewed on a video we rented not so long ago -- 28 Weeks Later, for Halloween, perhaps. Anyway, sci-fi movie about a team of earthlings headed away from a frozen dying Earth with plans to "jump start" the sun, which looks like a red giant.

Yeah, science fiction today, probably science frantic next century.

One more nail in the coffin
of the AGW scam.

Prof Christy
and I have occasionally exchanged email communications over the last few years. The information he has provided me with has been consistent. He's a real expert who is doing real research and he's not alone among scientists on the IPCC who do not think much of the AGW Theory. The IPCC (i.e., UN) bureaucrats have always downplayed and/or edited out their opinions on the matter.

You right wing sycophants ..
are big business toadies and are probably on the take. I'll be you that half, if not all of you, get some type of stipend from Exxon, Shell, Citgo, et al, to go out there and spread these vicious untruths. It is a FACT the earth is warming. It is a Fact the carbon dioxide levels are in creasing. Can you no longer see that 1+1=2? Good lord you repugnicans make me sick.




Wow! That was kind of fun. No wonder the brainless libs stay that way. All the vitriol with none of the heart, just emotion. Too bad I had to be born with common sense. Since I actually have brains, I'll have to stay a Republican. But there's always the possibility of a full frontal lobotomy ...

Think People
"Why is it democrats want to control our lives?"

Have you ever noticed there are only 2 kinds of people in the world? Those who want to live their own lives and those who want to control everyone else. I really think it is a pathology that is a combination of fear and narcissism. Controllers see themselves as being the only ones smart enough to grasp truth and the only ones capable of saving everybody else. They live in fear that if they don’t have absolute control then the whole world and everyone in it will fall apart. If you ever notice, controllers are almost always agnostic or atheist. That’s because they can’t comprehend any being superior to themselves. They also can’t give control of their own lives over to a Greater Power.

I have seen parents like this. They use all sorts of manipulative tactics to control everything their kids do, and then when the kids become adults these controlling parents can’t let go. They want to control who their kids marry, where they live, where they work and how they raise their own kids. It’s really sick.

OK hotshot (jetpilot),
you had me at !War for OIL! I'm with you now. What do we do? What's your plan for changing the planet's temperature, even a little bit, before you and I burn up or even die. Hurry up and tell me so I can fight off the liars and babies. What do WE do? What CAN we do? WHO can we do it to?

Chopper John vs TROLLS
Jet Pilot and Lilly have no solutions except more Guvernmnt...Libs never have any solutions of consequence, their responsibility is to provide the problems and attack the messenger that disagrees with their non-solutions!
Someone should alert Soros that his paid minions are failing in their duties...lol

Good to hear
The Algore panic mongers love to spew nonsense if it will get 30 seconds of prime time. But nothing they say is accurate. At best it's blown way out of proportion. Sanity should prevail, and Algore should shut the F up.
Bob
Catch more of The World According to Bob at http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

There are only...
...three kinds of people in the world.Those who can count and those who can't.

And of those three kind of people ...
five out of four of them have problems with fractions.

Controllers
Both the left and right wings of Control Freaks Unanimous want to control our lives, just different aspects of it, and I dream of what our country wouuld be like if the Supremes would do their job to protect and defend our Constitution. We would still have a limited-government republic instead of degenerating into a huge invasive democracy. Unfortunately, the government monopoly indoctrination system (public schools) has done its job to indoctrinate too many generations of children, so all it takes to control everyone is 50.01%, and we all have to argue about everything. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Global Hot Air
I still say that the evil rich people are not paying their fair share of the huge costs for our best-of-all-solutions government to remove the SUVs from Mars. That poor globe has been getting warmer, and no sensible person would believe that fluctuations of solar emissions could be the cause. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Misleading
"For example, I suppose CNN did not announce two weeks ago when the Antarctic sea ice extent reached its all-time maximum, even though, in the Arctic in the North Pole, it reached its all-time minimum."

I don't suppose you'll hear Dr. Christy mention that the minimum in the arctic broke the previous record by 27%, while the maximum in the antarctic broke the record by 0.9%. I also doubt you'll hear Dr. Christy mention that there is no trend in antarctic sea ice, while there is a statistically significant downward trend in arctic sea ice.

Why is Dr. Christy misleading you?


the coming ice age
Paul Greenberg wrote:
< < I can remember being taught in school not that the planet is warming but that another ice age is almost upon us. It was a widespread assumption at the time taught as scientific fact. There was no doubt about it. All the scientists agreed. It said so right there in the book. I must have missed it somewhere along the way. > >

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944914-2,0 0.html

Yes, in 1974, Time Magazine wrote about concerns of a coming ice age, and today this often gets touted as an example of how unreliable climatic studies are, among other things.

Few people actually go back and read what was actually being said. Among them...

"Man, too, may be somewhat responsible for the cooling trend. The University of Wisconsin's Reid A. Bryson and other climatologists suggest that dust and other particles released into the atmosphere as a result of farming and fuel burning may be blocking more and more sunlight from reaching and heating the surface of the earth."

There was a huge boost in particulate matter right after WW2, and this put us on a trajectory where some 10% of sunlight-blocking particulate matter was manmade. It doesn't take a whole lot of that stuff to cause a downturn in temperature.

It wasn't until environmental regulations started to reduce particulate emissions that this began to turn around. So rather than concerns of a coming ice age in the 1970s being an example of how global warming is hysteria in the 1990s and 2000s, it is actually an example of how environmental REGULATION has worked to reverse damage we were doing to our planet.

continuing...
Damage, you ask? If particulate matter was preventing global warming, isn't it a good thing? Shouldn't we go back to INCREASING particulates so we can fight global warming? Well, you try seeing how well you live with your lungs full of soot and your bones & blood full of toxins. (I've lived in Asia and had to breathe in China’s toxic clouds that come every spring -- nasty stuff.)

The Science of Good
Good, as in helping people, is money well spent.
Has anybody here besides me read Danish scientist, Bjorn Lumborg's books? Simply, he recomends spending our money on helping the millions of people in need, and, if done intelligently, will benefit more of humanity environmentally, also.

two years later, signs pointed elsewhere
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,914494,00.html

"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody can do much about it even today. Short-range forecasting has improved enormously in recent years, even though squalls occur on days when the weatherman insists the precipitation probability is near zero. And despite great advances in techniques and technology, the discipline of climatology—the study of long-range trends in weather—is still an inexact science, to say the least. Climatologists still disagree on whether earth's long-range outlook is another ice age, which could bring mass starvation and fuel shortages, or a warming trend, which could melt the polar icecaps and flood coastal cities.

In fact, scientists have been unable to explain the basic causes of the bizarre weather that afflicted much of the world this summer. Record rains and floods soaked some areas, while droughts parched others, with potentially serious social, economic and political effects."

And so now we are reaping the benefit of greater precision, far greater capability in modeling current and future trends, etc.

And so what has the nearly universal consensus been? That the world is warming, that the warming is bringing wildly fluctuating and often catastrophic weather, that other damage will occur with rising sea levels, and human-generated pollution is causing it.

Of course, naysayers disagree, and not all for the same reasons. Some naysayers have a vested interest in maintaining the pollutive status quo. And some naysayers are simply buying the naysaying of the status quo maintainers because they don't like the political orientation of the people who have been sounding the trumpet of climate change for so long.

... continuing
Okay, fine. There is a possibility, remote but not tiny, that CO2 emissions by humans are not affecting climate in any significant way and that none of the things we fear will come to pass.

And then there is the possibility that some or all of these concerns will actually come to pass, or maybe even worse.

The former requires nothing be done; the latter requires a reduction of pollution, through behavioral changes and technology.

Now, even if it turns out that global warming is nonsense, do the naysayers not see the value in REDUCING POLLUTION NONETHELESS? I'm not that old, but I remember the thick brown air of Southern California and the repeated smog alerts. It was environmental regulation that reduced car emissions and brought that under control, and this is just one example of hundreds of ways we improve our lives by reducing pollutants and cleaning up our environment. So even if the global warming issue turns out to be wrong, the benefits of reducing pollutants would still be real and tangible.

Who's misleading PoorGOP?
There are three lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I forget who said that (Mark Twain?) but PoorGOP tries to pull a fast one and obfuscate truth with his own version. Since he didn't give any links or hard data, let's consider this:

Antarctica is a continent that covers over 14 million square kilometers. Virtually all of it covered by ice nearly two miles thick. A 1 % increase would equate to in increase of 140,000 sqaure kilometers of ice, again, 2 miles thick.

By contrast the Arctic is not a continent and consists of some land, some sea, and some ice. When PoorGOP states that "the minimum in the arctic broke the previous record by 27%" in reference to the ice melt, the 27% sounds like a lot. But he did NOT say that 27% of the ice melted. Only that it "broke the previous record by 27%". So if the previous record was a 2% ice melt, the new record is about 2.5%. And that is not considering the ice that regrows during the winter months to give what would be more important information: the overall reduction in the ice.

My point: PoorGOP is at the least misleading you. Lying? Ask him but don't expect an honest answer.

Actually, I had another point
that I forgot to mention. The big lie about ocean levels rising, whether they be 35 feet or 35 inches, is that they're not. Increased moisture in the atmosphere is what has caused more snow and increased land mass in the antarctic. That increase is "absorbing", if you will, the additional water in the worlds oceans from any melting of glaciers or ice caps.

It's amazing to me how God created everything in balance. The earth has it's own compensation method and all the PoorGOP's and chicken littles of the word don't seem to grasp that reality.

Irrelevancies
PoorGOP writes: "I don't suppose you'll hear Dr. Christy mention that the minimum in the arctic broke the previous record by 27%, while the maximum in the antarctic broke the record by 0.9%."

Irrelevant. The simple fact is that the antarctic ice cap is not melting, whereas if the AGW crowd were correct, it would be. This is not to mention that the south polar ice cap is many, many times larger in volume than the northern ice cap. It is also not to mention that while the north polar ice cap is shrinking, the Greenland ice sheet is actually increasing in thickness.

Dr. Christy isn't misleading anyone, you are.

PoorGOP continues: "I also doubt you'll hear Dr. Christy mention that there is no trend in antarctic sea ice, while there is a statistically significant downward trend in arctic sea ice."

Irrelevant. The facts as stated by Dr. Christy are sufficient to demonstrate quickly that the AGW theory is incomplete at best. Your additional details do not change that conclusion.

Dr. Christy isn't misleading anyone. You are.

CO2 and GW
This morning, at about 7.30 AM, a school bus went by my house spewing CO2 into the air. It is now about 9.30 AM and the temperture has risen about 10 F! I tell you, the science is there - there was an increase in CO2 levels and the temp went up! When will you deniers wake up and believe that every temporal correlation proves a causal relationship!

BTW, I pretty sure I read the 7.30 temp correctly, but it was still a little dark then. Since then, the sun has come up, so I am certain I read the 9.30 temp correctly. So you see, the CO2 definitely caused a rise in temp.

The only fact worth remembering...
is that four out of five global warming scientists are eighty percent.

Politics not science
Ever notice that people who profess to believe that global warming is man-made don't really want to do anything about it except to force other people to change their lives?

When we the last time you went to an environmental rally or global warming protest and saw people collecting cell phones, pagers, MP3 players, computers, DVD players, etc., etc.?

Nope, it's always about telling other people how to live and it usually involves government compulsion to enforce their wishes.

Man-made global warming is just one possible explanation of the change and it has a rather weak basis in science, too.

Wrongo
"The simple fact is that the antarctic ice cap is not melting, whereas if the AGW crowd were correct, it would be."

No, because of the thermal inertia of the Southern oceans and the change in the Southern Annular Mode, Antarctica has yet to warm significantly. This regional phenomenon will be overwhelmed by further warming soon.

Christy wrongly leaves the impression that the sea ice extant numbers cancel out--they do not. That's the definition of misleading.




Lilly-
So money from energy is inherently dirty, but money from Soros, whatever group of Washington bureaucrats doesn't influence scientists at all?
I work at a research facility- and let me tell you, if your grant money dries up, your life, as you know it, is over. Right now if you don't tow the global warming line, you get no money.
Is the energy industry, who help keep this country safe, productive, and free, and who (gasp!) make a profit at it, just supposed to roll over and let the wackos control the debate?

Logical Choices
Suppose we do something radical about global warming, and those who are predicting disaster are wrong, then the consequences are new energy technologies that have a greatly reduced impact on the biosphere, which translates into a cleaner and safer environment.

Suppose we don't do something radical about global warming, and those who are predicting disaster are right, then the consequences will be devastating for the planet, including a die off of scores of plant and animal species and massive property damage and loss.

With the first choice, even if the panic is unfounded, human beings still win. Indeed, there is are intrinsic benefits to having a markedly cleaner environment. With the second choice, we all lose.

The choice rational people make is obvious.

The leftist version of Pascal's wager
Purplestater gives us the Left's version of Pascal's Wager.

Pascal's Wager is an argument made by the mathematician Pascal regarding faith; that if one believes and is wrong, one has lost nothing, whereas if one disbelieves and is wrong, one has lost everything. It's a horrible way to convince unbelievers, in my humble opinion, and should never be mentioned.

But the Left routinely touts a similarly ridiculous wager. They first float a completely laughable theory (e.g., humans are destroying the planet). Then they float the wager: if we're right and we do nothing, we lose everything, whereas if we're wrong and do something, we've lost nothing.

It's not just wrong, it's dishonest.

In the first place, policy needs to be assessed on its merits, and this is clearly an attempt to bypass any consideration of the merits of policy by creating a false sense of panic.

In the second place, it avoids any assessment of the likelihood of the two possibilities; it posits them as a simple binary proposition -- we're right, or we're wrong. The correct approach for an expected value calculation would be "There's a 3% probability we're right, and a 97% probability we're wrong." The likelihood of correctness is very, very much part of the equation.

In the third place, it avoids any mention of the cost of responding to the "crisis." It's simply not the case that if we respond to the crisis, it costs us nothing; in this case, the Kyoto Protocol response would cripple the world's economy.

In the fourth place, it avoids any mention of the effectiveness of responding to the crisis. If our best efforts will produce no change, the expenditure of a single dime is a meaningless waste. In this case, the expenditures are ALL wasted; the best result we could obtain by adhering to Kyoto would hardly even dent the warming trend.

Newsweek!
Weren't they the intrepid journalists who accused our guards at Gitmo of flushing the Koran? And we're supposed to believe them when they accuse someone of dishonesty?

Repeating Pascal's Wager
wwsword goes purplestater one better: he not only repeats the Left's version of Pascal's Wager, he adds some gratuitous guilt manipulation.

Read my post from 11:07 AM for an explanation why the "simple logic" of the Left's Pascal's Wager is illogical.

But let's respond to this specifically: "The choice rational people make is obvious."

Leftists, for some reason, always resort to manipulation in their attempts to win arguments. This is a clear appeal to Vanity: "If you disagree with me, you get called Irrational." If you want to avoid having your reputation besmirched by liberals, who do nothing nearly as well as assassinate character, you have to agree with them.

Some say they do this because they're not capable of winning the debate fairly. It's true that they're not capable, but that's not why they do this. They do it because power needs are part of the psychology of liberalism; one does not (usually) become liberal unless one has a personal need to wield power. They do it because it's their psychological nature to do it. The fact that they're deficient in analytical reasoning is an unrelated datum.

Embrace it
I don't know about the Southern Annular Node, but I say embrace global waarming. Anybody up for a pool party? Party hardy!!! Le'Chaim.

Darwin's a monkey's uncle, er, monkey's nephew

Jet Pilot, Frog and PoorGOP
Please, put the cuckoo back in the clock.

Just so we get the cost equation right
wwsword wrote; "Suppose we do something radical about global warming, and those who are predicting disaster are wrong, then the consequences are new energy technologies that have a greatly reduced impact on the biosphere, which translates into a cleaner and safer environment."

Um... no.

The actual cost would be "The poor in all countries will have spent twice as much for energy as they would have otherwise, and will continue to do so into the future, as government interference in the market will have forced economies to obtain power in economically inferior ways." Of course, this affects a lot more than just the poor, it affects everybody; but it affects the poor the most, and likely produces in the range of hundreds of thousands of deaths by starvation.

This translates into a dirtier and far more dangerous world, as the marginal populations increase dramatically while the nations best able to help them recede into economic stagnation.

All this, to mollify some neo-marxist MOONBATS who want to assauge their personal power needs by crying "The Sky Is Falling!"

Sounds logical to me. When do we start?

What I want to know is...
...when is the Left going to apologize for incorrectly stating that "all legitimate scientists agree" that humans are the cause of global climate change.

We keep hearing instance after instance of not only legitimate scientists, but directly relevant nobel laureates, articulating skepticism of the AGW dogma. By now, it must be immediately obvious to the casual observer that it was NEVER the case that "all legitimate scientists agree."

And since liberals are so very deeply concerned with truth, they must be horrified that they inadvertently misled the population with so plainly inaccurate a claim.

So I'm just wondering which liberal is going to speak for them all, and offer the apology.

I note that this is less than a week after hearing liberal columnist Clarence Page state on national TV that the San Diego fires were caused by global warming. I'm afraid I had to wipe nasty things off the TV screen after my response. I guess Page won't be making the apology. I wonder who will?

Prove it's not true!
Actually, it's not too hard to disprove man-made global warming.

The climate has steadily warmed for 20,000 years. During this time, CO2 levels have also changed, but the increase in atmospheric CO2 follows the warming and therefore cannot cause it.

Although the climate has steadily warmed since the retreat of the last ice age, there have been peaks and valleys in the temperatures. The Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age are good examples. (BTW: Even the IPPC no longer says those events were regionally limted but were global in scope).

Why were temps warmer during the Middle Ages and why did it cool so suddenly? Was man the cause of those climate change events, or were natural processes the cause? Aren't those natural processes still in effect today?

There is no evidence that CO2, a weak greenhouse gas, drives climate change. Most of the warming in the last century happened before 1940, but most of the CO2 build up happened decades later. How can the CO2 increases come later but cause the warming?

IPCC trying to get facts?
This is a joke. Many Scientists have left the IPCC in protest over the political distortion, or downright lies about their work. The IPCC refuses to remove their names from the documents and they have even been sued to do so.

The IPCC's own bylaws require the Science studiies to support the Political objectives of the group. This is an abuse of Science.

Canadian statisticians (Prof. Ross McKitrick, U of Guelph, and others) have shown the centerpiece of the IPCC's arguments about man causing global warming was statistically invalid and the data fed to had been altered to remove any data which might not support the pre-determined conclusion.

This group, the IPCC is not only wrong, it is dishonest.

Change the subject
“Global warming” isn’t the catch-all explanation in vogue anymore for whatever goes wrong. Hadn’t you noticed? Even Al Gore’s disciples have discarded the term, especially since the records show the globe hasn’t (ahem) gotten any warmer in the past several years.

So now, in trying to get governments to grab even more control than ever over us taxpayers, they have changed the term to—“climate change.” Brilliant! Thus, whether it gets hotter or colder from now on, we polluting souls are to blame and must give up our SUVS for the common good, use ethanol to enrich corn farmers and pick up doggie doo to save the Chesapeake Bay.

Much less
"all it takes to control everyone is 50.01%"

It only takes 50.01% of those who **vote in the most recent election**, and even that's misleading.

It really only takes about 20% of the population to control the others because only half of qualified voters even turn up. The rest are too ignorant of politics (or too stupid--thank goodness they stay home--or too pure), so they turn their lives over to the people who do vote.

Further, a huge number of people are not qualified voters. There are, again we are grateful, illegal aliens. They submit to the powerful--at least in some things, without being able to select their masters. There are those in prison, more thanks.

There are those who cannot vote because they are not registered, or, registered, do not have access to a polling place (like those in hospitals, or in the military--remember all the disqualified absentee ballots in Florida?) or on unanticipated business trips, etc.

Or, as I said, it's misleading, because those who vote do not have any real control over those who end up in office, making the decisions that do, in fact, control our lives. There are a sizable number here who voted for President Bush (happy to count myself among the others, though) who would gladly be able to enforce their wills on his lack of a veto on idiotic spending or the "pills for pops" boondogle.

It takes far less than half of the people to control the rest. No wonder the left-wing finds it so easy to destroy USmerica. 'Course, the right-wing does, too. But that's grist for another mill.

Governments love schools because it's an easy, cheap way to control the mminds of those they rule over.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

The Sky is Falling
Ironically, in this case, "the sky" is the sky.

Gore is saying the sky is falling. The Republicans are properly calling it fooey.

So why won't the public listen?

Oh, that's easy, because on every other environmental issue where the liberals got it right, the Republicans opposed them too.

The Republicans have rejected all attempts to regulate business to protect the environment and too keep businesses from polluting.

So, the Democrats have all kinds of thanks and respect from the public for cleaning up the water, cleaning up the air, etc.

California, the most liberal state, has the toughest environment regulations and one of the healthiest economies in this country. Everybody in the country knows it.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooo, when the Republicans are against something environmental the liberals are promoting, the public just yawns and goes "there you go again, crying the economic sky is going to fall with some environmental initiative". Something that has never come true. So in effect, the Republicans cry "the economic sky will fall if the environmental regulation is passed."

Republicans are the anti-environmentalists in the publics mind. They have always opposed environmental clean up to protect businesses and always will.

So the fact that Republicans happen to be correct on this issue will be ignored given their political history. You have no one to blame but yourselves. Remember, when you point the finger at someone else, you have 4 more pointing right back at cha.


Think about it.
If someone tells you they are an "environmentalist" and haven't told you their party affiliation you can rest assured they are:

1.) liberal
2.) conservative

All the environmental groups from the Sierra Club to the Green Peace are LIBERAL.

Republicans have no commitment on the environment other than to be nay sayers and critics.

If the Republicans had an organization as well organized as the NRA which promoted the environment then just maybe the public might pay Republicans heed. The closest thing Republicans have to an environment lobby is the Timber industry, which lobbies to cut down trees.

Nice.



Global Warming is dangerous
Look what Orwellian things are being done to Bjorn Lomborg to trash his repurtation and career just for having a contrary opinion.

How about stalinist Heidi Cullen's attempt to decertify weathermen who don't agree with her?

Whay will happen to High Court judge Burton, the British judge who found nine significat "errors" (read lies) in algore's fairy tale? "Mr Justice Barton was at pains to point out that the “apocalyptic vision” presented in the film was politically partisan and not an impartial analysis of the science of climate change."

Green Party
The Green party is a party who's platform is front-and-center devoted to the environment.

Is that party: liberal or conservative.

Conservatives need to wake up to the fact that they have been silent on promoting environmental causes for so long they deserved to be ignore.

Over the next twenty years climate change will be an easy frame for liberals to win because conservatives refuse to compete on setting environmental objectives.

Mark my words. The Democrats are going to start using the environment at every turn because they know they can win against an opponent that has not vision. The political roles are reversed when it comes to the environment. It is the Republicans who have no vision and only have criticism of Democratic positions to offer the public.

So the future is going to be the Republicans will run on social issues and the Democrats will run on environment issues.

Whooopeee! You people don't get it. Its not about global warming, its about politics.



Global Warming is fatal
Another Global Warming stalinist...
-----------------

AP Nov. 1, 2007

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) - A 66-year-old man was bashed to death while watering his lawn following an argument with a neighbor over the city's water restrictions, police and media said Thursday.

Todd Munter, 36, was charged Thursday with murdering Ken Proctor, who lived on a nearby street in suburban Sylvania.

Police alleged in a statement that Munter approached Proctor Wednesday as he watered his lawn with a hose at 5:30 p.m. and an argument ensued. Television and radio news bulletins reported the argument was over Sydney's water restrictions.

An off-duty police officer intervened and arrested Munter, the statement said. Proctor was taken by ambulance to hospital but died soon after, police said.

Proctor was complying with Sydney's water restrictions when he was killed. Watering with hand-held hoses is allowed on Wednesdays and Sundays before 10 a.m. and after 4 p.m.

A few facts
Greenhouse gasses:

Water vapor makes up 95% of greenhouse gas effect.

CO2 makes up about 3.6% of greenhouse gas effect.

Methane makes up about .36% of greenhouse gas effect.

Other trace gasses make up the remaining greenhouse gas effect.


Even using the most aggressive estimates advanced by the Al Gore worshippers man is responsible for 5% (a very questionable amount) of the CO2 or .0018% of the greenhouse gas effect.

Someone want to tell me how a .0018% increase in greenhouse gas is going to melt the ice caps? Humidity naturally rising by 1 percentage point has more than 100 times the effect of CO2 going up by .0018%.

This mean war!
The Church of Global Warming, at the behest of its spiritual leader, and the eco-terrorists followers, have been on an eco-jihad against those who disagree with them.

The crusade for global warming enlightenment will spread the light of righteousness.

Nobody expects the Global Warming Inquisition.

Ladies and gentlemen...
the cookoo has left the clock.

drivebyposting writes: Friday, November, 02, 2007 12:45 PM

"Conservatives need to wake up to the fact that they have been silent on promoting environmental causes for so long they deserved to be ignore."

The ones who promoted the safety of DDT and tried to protect Africans from over 1 million deaths from malaria per year?

The ones who pay for most of the hunting and fishing licenses that go to support wildlife? In PA, 100% of the deer management funds comes from licenses - we now have starving and diseased deer due to lack of funds, and more deer are killed on the highways than by hunters. One hundred years ago, the total US deer herd was 1/2 million - today it's 30 M. (According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety there are an estimated 1.5 million deer-vehicle collisions annually in the United States [2006], causing more than 150 fatalities and $1.1 billion in property damage.
http://www.ecosysmp.com/testimony.html

The ones who keep saying that controlled burns in forests are good for them? (See SanDiego county, if it's still there.)

The ones who say that not building access roads, fireblocks, and harvesting old wood in the forests leads to an increased danger of disastrous fires? (See Yellowstone.)

No oil is the real problem
"Think People! writes: Nov 11:21 AM
Please, put the cuckoo back in the clock."

Brilliant. Right wingnut has nothing intelligent to say, so just throw out an insult. shut-up!



LS writes: Nov 11:57 AM
"Much less "all it takes to control everyone is 50.01%"

Al Gore lost the race w/ more total votes. The problem, many people don't vote. Special interest & money rules. It's no longer whats right or best, its about making the BASE happy or the NRA, Evangelicals, Labor Unions & corporations happy so they'll give politicians more money.


Forget Global warming, more accurately called Global Climate Change but forget it. JUST GETTING OIL TO MAKE CO2 WILL BE A CHALLANGE WITH OUT WAR.

Oil has peaked in production while demand is increasing with no limit. Available oil is going to fall from here on. Bush uses the TERROR card, but be ready for the real terror of gas prices or no gas, which will be real.

We know from Greenspan & memos the idea was GET THE (IRAQ) OIL & COME OUT SMELLING LIKE RICH OILY ROSES & MAKE A permanent GOP majority. Doha!

It was not a REAL terror concern, it was about oil & power. Not only will we not get oil, we will pay to fix Iraq. We already armed them & given them billions in unaccounted weapons & cash. They're laughing at us.

Cheney interviewed in the early 1990's said what would happen if we had invaded during the 1st GULF WAR. Sadly his words where 100% correct in March 2003 but ignored. WHY? OIL/POWER

The decision was MADE. Facts where picked to fit that decision. Anything counter to the decision was ignored or fired (eg several Generals). That’s tragic & a crime.

America is great, but mistakes where made. Its time to change course.

VOTE DEM '08 & STOP THE MADNESS

No one cares about your hobby
Max Power writes: Fri Nov 12:49 PM
drivebydolt
"Uh...no you idiot. First of all the only thing you know about the NRA is how to spell it (I'm sure you needed help). The NRA is a hugely conservationist organization that's done more to preserve our wildlife than any liberal organization could ever hope.

Just go back to your stereotypical little life and stay useless... "


Wow typical, its ALL ABOUT the NRA again and anger.

Funny people with their little gun/hunting hobby get so MAD and throw temper tantrums if you dare insult the Church of NRA or say its acronym in vain. THESE ARE THE HOT HEADS HAVE GUNS??

Look you are a gun nut and have a little hobby, hunting. Good for you. So shut up. It's just a HOBBY. The topic is global warming.

Hunters make their little hobby sound like its next to God, Patriotism and Manliness. Like any one gives a s**t. The topic is global warming and the NRA reference was an analogy. Now go have another beer, clean your truck, fix you gun rack and go hunting tomorrow. And go brush that one tooth you got left. (ha-ha)

Gosh people with mental disorders and tempers should not have guns. I am just saying, sounds like, mental illness + Gun = bad things.

Look at Cheney. Shot his "friend", and than the friend apologized to Cheney for getting in the way of his shot. Now that is gangster. You get shot and apologize for upsetting the guy that shot you. What did Cheney do? Tried to keep it a secret and cover it up!!!!! ha ha ha ha ha.

Again Temper + mental defect + guns = bad things.

Uh oh,
jetpilot said a naughty. Calm down, son. You sound like you're in unbalanced flight.

Hey, have you come to grips yet with all the nasty junk those turbine-powered engines sling out into the atmosphere? Have you also come to grips with the edible fuel you're gonna have to use to power those behemoths into the air? And, finally, have you come to grips with the fact that, due to global warming, you're gonna die? A lot to think about, huh?

Some thoughts
I actually though this was a pretty good article. The first point, I think most people on here seem to agree with (myself included) namely that panic won’t do anyone any good, and usually distracts from the debate. Moreover, due both the admitted uncertainties, and practical realities of the matter, there are limits to the response we should, or will take. For example, even if we were 100% certain that the sea was going to rise 20 feet, I doubt it would be practical, or desirable, to get rid of all cars etc. And since, we are considerably less than 100% certain, our actions should be even more circumspect. HOWEVER, this uncertainty does not prevent us from taking any action at all. It just reinforces the fact that all actions taken must have a justifiable cost benefit while taking into account future uncertainty. IE, it’s just as foolish to refuse to take any action, as to take drastic action, because of our uncertainty. Therefore, the deniers who believe global warming is a big hoax (perpetrated by thousands of scientists) are acting just as foolishly as those who would like to go back to the Stone Age. The simple fact is that we don’t know what will happen, BUT, there is a good deal of evidence that advises us to take precautions.



Some thoughts2
Luckily, there are a number of proposals out there that are win win. For example, stopping the government give away of billions of dollars a year to the oil and gas companies might be a good start. Also further investment in clean and renewable technologies. In fact, if we had been spending the billions on renewable instead of on tax breaks for oil companies each year, we would quite possible already have a solution. It should also be noted that fossil fuel prices in general, and gas prices in particular are going to keep going up. As supply growth can no longer keep up with demand growth, prices will continue up. Therefore, in the interests of future economic and national security, we need to be pressing ahead to build a solid future.

One place that has some good ideas all fleshed out is http://www.apolloalliance.org/ People that actually care about answers will go to the site, and read up on it. Those that don’t will just spout somebody else’s meaningless talking points, and go on being ignorant. Hopefully, we will have more of the former, and less of the latter, but I’m not sure yet.

I've always wondered
What makes this "global warming" different than the one that occurred a 1000 years ago and the ones before that? Scandinavia was once the bread basket of Europe and England was warm enough to support lush vineyards. Only now the Swiss are finding mines that have been covered by glaciers since the Middle Ages. Greenland was once warm enough to support farming and Viking villages until the Little Ice Age changed the climate.

What makes that warming “natural” and this “unnatural”? Why do this warmings correspond directly with solar flare activity and not with any of the global warming models?

Whose line is it anyway?
The real difference between the two camps of this debate is not whether we are damaging our environment. It is who is responsible for my share of the trash.

I believe I should be responsible to clean up my yard while it seems the other side thinks the government (aka taxpayers aka me again) should be responsible for cleaning up his yard.

If each person/family/whatever would be responsible for his own this would probably not be such a problem. The real problem is the clown with the "save the planet" sticker on his car from which he is tossing cigarette buts and beer cans.

And, yes, I saw a lot of those while I was living in that environmental paradise called California. (For those of you who have never seen a California roadside up close, that is facetious. I fed my kids through a summer of unemployment by recycling cans picked up along the highways of Santa Barbara County.)

In short, if you take care of yours and I take care on mine we all will be better off.

Whoopee, a Dissenter
Wow, there's nothing like finding a scientific dissenter on global warming to get a conservative excited. But the bottom line remains---Christy is a dissenter on a panel of thousands of scientists who agree that we have a problem.of serious dimensions.

An Observation
jetpilot writes: Funny people with their little gun/hunting hobby get so MAD and throw temper tantrums if you dare insult the Church of NRA or say its acronym in vain. THESE ARE THE HOT HEADS HAVE GUNS??

=================================================

Yet it is the antigun Clinton campaign that is demanding that Tim Russert be shot for allowing the unscreen questions.


JetPilot
"Nuclear (or Nuclur for Bush), wind, solar, alternative fuels, increased efficiency and DARE SAY conservation. means in 20 years we tell the Arabs to suck it.

You want more WAR for OIL? We need to do something NOW. It means working together to solve the problem. WE DO HAVE A PROBLEM & the far right needs to get over denying it. Let's make Lemonade out of lemons."

How about we drill for our own oil, of which there is a crapload? If you lefist moonbats had let us drill in that barren, frozen tundra known as ANWAR when it was first proposed in 1995, we would be telling the Arabs to "suck it," as you so artfully put it, today rather than 20 years down the road.

JetPilot/FlightAttendant
"Oil has peaked in production while demand is increasing with no limit. Available oil is going to fall from here on. Bush uses the TERROR card, but be ready for the real terror of gas prices or no gas, which will be real."

Again, there is oil o' plenty just waiting for us if democrats/ecoweenies would only permit us to drill for it so we could quit sending billions of petro-dollars to people who would like to gut us all like fish (lefties included).

Rock
Just to be clear, there is not enough oil in ANWAR to put us anywhere near energy independent.


The scientist with common sense:
What is the use of trying to control human CO2 emmissions when one volcanic eruption in Indonesia can wipe out a billion BBQ's. Don't worry be happy... and go ahead and enjoy that BBQed corn fed beef steak! You only live once. NO TAXATION OF EXHALATION.


Kroneborge
So, do you actually think that ANWR is the only place in the US with oil? What an incredible idiot.

Another lying pol
jumps on the scam with a carbon tax.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/02/bloomberg-call s-for-tax-on-carbon-emissions/index.html?hp

Note that there is no offsetting tax cut that makes this revenue neutral.

It's just another excuse to raise taxes.

jet pilot
just what kind of jet do you pilot? and for whom?
thanks

Kroneborge
I never said that there was, but every drop from ANWAR is a drop not purchased from the throat-slitters.

There are also oodles of oil in the Gulf of Mexico (where the Chinese are drilling), off the coast of California, and in the oil shale beneath the rocky mountains. We are flush with oil, but lefties won't let us drill for it (and whine about the rising price of gas all the while).

Hockey Goon
"What makes this "global warming" different than the one that occurred a 1000 years ago and the ones before that? Scandinavia was once the bread basket of Europe and England was warm enough to support lush vineyards. Only now the Swiss are finding mines that have been covered by glaciers since the Middle Ages. Greenland was once warm enough to support farming and Viking villages until the Little Ice Age changed the climate.

What makes that warming “natural” and this “unnatural”? Why do this warmings correspond directly with solar flare activity and not with any of the global warming models?"

_________________

Actually, I like your reasoning. Gore takes an uptic in average global temperature of one degree over the last century, and attempts to stampede the nation into a panic mode. Why? Because it's anthropogenic, a claim for which he supplies little proof other than his hysterical proclamations and anecdotal incidents. England, not exactly a center for reasoned thought nowdays, couldn't even accept his blather.

New York State, once covered by glacial ice sheets, now has beautiful lakes as a lagacy. Why shouldn't we welcome a bit of global warming? Because Gore says we shouldn't?

For a guy who couldn't even master divinity school (something he shares in common with Stalin), managed the klinton shakedown racket, and talked about an imaginary social security 'lock box', perhaps he'd be more suited to run an institution with bars on the windows.

lilly
Typical Liberal wonderlust: alternative viewpoints are being paid to manufacture Truth while Altruists like Gore are doing it for the good of the helpless, namely us. Over 100 years ago they called them "snake oil salesmen" who promised to cure whatever ails you and today they've evolved into Democrats.

So let's stipulate BOTH sides are being paid for their viewpoints. Which side then loses their livelihood if no one "pays" attention to them? Sometimes the simplest solutions are the easiest to recognize . . . for those who aren't blinded by the light of good intentions with minimal results . . .

Nobel peace prize not a science award
There is some odd confusion in this column. Greenberg highlights the fact that the people who shared the prize with Gore are scientists, which would be a good point if this was an award for science. But of course the peace prize is not.

The scientists objections to Gore's behavior seem to be largely the politics of it, that is the way that Gore has brought attention to it. But that is not an issue that scientists have a special advantage with regards.

So we have an award given for focusing world attention on the problems that are likely to result from Global Warming. What exactly is the fact that one of the scientists who signed on to the report that the Nobel committee rewarded disagrees on the political issues with most of the other scientists and with Gore?

We have seen a lot of non-scientists trying to make pronouncements on scientific matters. Attacks on evolution are the most obvious, but the Bush administration has made non-scientist editing scientific reports rather commonplace. But in this case we have Gore campaigning to bring attention to the consensus view of scientists. It hardly seems significant that one of those scientists thinks the consensus is overstated.

Rock
You forgot the oil sands fields in Canada, which are VAST.

We wouldn't have to import a drop from the ME, and it would certainly be better to import from Canada than Saudi Arabia.

Oh, well, they've got their tree-hugger nutjobs up there, too.


Oil Is Good
as I have posted on these sites before, oil and especially natural gas saved the earth from a horrible choking, smelly, polluted atmosphere.

Has anyone seen the old photos of London when they burned coal, before oil and natural gas were available? The soot, brown air, and smell were reported as horrible.

The second point is that all this will be moot in 20 years. The OPEC nations know that their reign of terror is nearly over. That could be why they do not increase production and let the oil prices rise - it closed at over $95 today.

The reason is a discovery about two years ago by British scientists of the atomic structure of the molecule that splits water using only sunshine, in photosynthesis. This will lead soon to abundant hydrogen at very low prices, using only water and sunshine.

On another point, I wonder why the eco-chondriacs do not demand that we control the earth's temperature the way we were taught was possible and would be done during the 1960's? When the great ice age came, (and everyone knew it was going to happen any moment), we would just spread carbon black on the snows in the Arctic and they would melt. Simple. Man in control.

Why don't the eco-chondriacs propose spraying a white substance around to reflect the sun's heat back into space? Simple. Man in control. Next problem.

Sunshine Splits Water
here is the reference for sunlight splitting water

http://www.ic.ac.uk/P4881.htm

I gotta believe that OPEC reads this stuff, and is maximizing their sole source of revenue during their last days of glory. Not much demand for sand around the world. Too much competition from the other deserts (Sahara, the entire middle of Australia, just to name two).

"John" Adams

would learn much from the "facts" behind the dis-passion between Cain and Able; that is his genesis was not in a "kill the competition" environment (or for that matter, use of technology to get the competition to kill itself...quite the Hitchcockian Biblical twist, hey?).

Easy question
Hockey Goon writes: Friday, November, 02, 2007 2:57 PM

"I've always wondered
What makes this "global warming" different than the one that occurred a 1000 years ago and the ones before that?"

Easy - it depends on who is the President.

not Pascal's wager
inkling revival wrote:
"Purplestater gives us the Left's version of Pascal's Wager.

Pascal's Wager is an argument made by the mathematician Pascal regarding faith; that if one believes and is wrong, one has lost nothing, whereas if one disbelieves and is wrong, one has lost everything.

But the Left routinely touts a similarly ridiculous wager. They first float a completely laughable theory (e.g., humans are destroying the planet). Then they float the wager: if we're right and we do nothing, we lose everything, whereas if we're wrong and do something, we've lost nothing."


Nice try, but that's not even close to an accurate summation of my point. First off, the "laughable theory" is not that humans are destroying the planet but that their activities are effecting climate change. Humans' adverse effect on their environment has been shown again and again for decades if not centuries, so it's hardly laughable.

Second, and more importantly, my point was to address a very reasonable economic concern: what if costly efforts to reduce CO2 and greenhouse gases cannot or do not slow or reverse that climate change (e.g., because it's too late, because it's not real, etc.)?

The answer is that those costly efforts would nevertheless have real, tangible benefits if they mean reducing pollutants and moving away from fossil fuels (including biofuels). The economic, biological, and environmental benefits of reducing pollution are both obvious and plenty.

It is parallel to this: Eating well and exercising might lead you to live longer and healthier, but this is not certain. You can nevertheless get cancer or heart disease no matter how well you eat and how much you exercise, or you can get hit by a car and be cut down at the age of 39.

But had you eaten well and exercised prior to that, you would still have benefited from overall better feeling throughout your life, even if you failed to reach your goal of living past 100.

Pascal weighed both sides
"those costly efforts would nevertheless have real, tangible benefits if they mean reducing pollutants and moving away from fossil fuels"

They may, but there are downsides, too. And there are tangible economic benefits from global warming.

More arable land translates into greater supplies of potentially more nutritional foodstuffs.

People can move north and south, decongesting many densely populated areas, e.g. Los Angeles.

For only two.

The left paints a uniformly black outlook of global warming to panic all of us into accepting yet more regulation of our lives.

This portrait seems to include the destruction of civilization and life as we know it. That is poppycock. Man has adapted for millennia to temperature cycles. We adapt annually to temperatures changing 50 or 60C. We adapt daily to 30C swings. Why is it difficult to accept we could adapt to a rise in temperature of a couple of degrees?

Not all results will be bad, many will be markedly good. When you calculate, take into account the benefits as well as the costs. Then factor in the horrific costs of fixing what is an illusion of a problem.

There is no basis for believing that man affects global temperatures. The only thing that does on Earth is also doing so on Mars and Venus. Unless you can turn off the Sun, there is nothing we can do to slow down the natural swing in temperatures on Earth.

We'd be better off were we to reduce dependence on Arabian oil. We would be better off if we could extract oil from the California coast or in ANWR. No one disagrees that cigarette smokers should stop throwing their butts out the car window. We all want to stop idiots from pitching underwear onto the side of the freeway.

But we do not want to spend insane sums on fixing a problem that we do not cause.

Schools exist to indoctrinate children.
It's cheap, it's effective, and it's an easy
sell to harried parents. It's also evil.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

In 1972, the pres. of the NEA
proclaimed the pub. schools would be the engines of social change.

And they have been: debased academics, high violence, emotional blackmail, and the drug centers of every community.

Repeal mandatory attendance laws, allow citizens to use former real estate taxes to pay direct tuition, turn bds. of ed. into bds. of trustees, kill the ed. unions, evaporate a gadzillion state and fed. mandates, and schools will function again as centers of achievement and preparation of young people for productive adulthoods.

The times, they are not changin'
"In 1972, the pres. of the NEA proclaimed the pub. schools would be the engines of social change."

Horace Mann said the same thing in 1846.

"And they have been: debased academics, high violence, emotional blackmail, and the drug centers of every community."

Not to mention that girls don't learn to get pregnant in their living rooms.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Dream World
Dear King Liberal: The blind hate that you so often accuse us of is yours. Al Gore is a fatuous self-promoter who has jumped onto a phrase and a blind, anti-American cause for the sake of his own profit and ego. Nothing new there among liberals. However, pointing that out to liberals constitutes "hate speech" in your dictionary. Therefore, anyone who questions your assertions, however absurd, are haters. This is true across the entire spectrum of philosophical debate. It's also a prime reason why there is and cannot be any significant common ground between left and right. You won't hear of it.
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