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Monday, August 06, 2007
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The consolations of history
by Paul Greenberg
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Knowing a little history is a great time-saver. One need only read the headline over a "news" story to realize it's an old story, and feel free to go on to the sports page.

For example: "Panel labels 2 Bush aides in contempt/ Vote seeks House citation regarding prosecutor firing" -Page 1, Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, July 26, 2007.

To which anyone with even a smattering of American history might respond: There they go again.

How long have such subpoenas been used to embarrass American administrations? Well, that kind of story was probably front-page news when John Marshall issued a subpoena for Thomas Jefferson's correspondence in the Aaron Burr treason trial.

The script had been refined many times - indeed, it had become a classic performance - by the time Joe McCarthy's notorious Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations was issuing subpoenas left and left in 1953.

The cast of characters changes from era to era, but the tug-of-war between the executive, judicial and legislative branches of the federal government has been going on since there was a federal government.

The founding fathers designed it that way, so that each branch of the government could keep the others from dominating the whole constitutional system, and therefore the people.

Checks and balances, the civics textbooks used to call it. It's not news but it's always drama when the subpoenas are being rolled out. You could almost hear the drum roll behind the opening paragraph of that front-page story:

"WASHINGTON - The House Judiciary Committee voted Wednesday to seek contempt of Congress citations against White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten and one-time counsel Harriet Miers, setting up a constitutional confrontation over the firings of federal prosecutors."

The good ol' Washington Post ran the subpoena story on its front page, too, and its tone, too, was fairly melodramatic. The administration was said to be making a "bold new assertion of executive authority" by resisting these subpoenas, and various constitutional "experts" were quoted calling its reasoning "astonishing Š breath-taking Š Nixonian." There was talk of a "constitutional crisis."

Crisis? Confrontation? This is more like an old, old dance in which the partners know their steps very well. Congress demands testimony, documents, evidence or anything else that might embarrass an administration. Then the administration declines to provide it, citing what has come to be known as the doctrine of executive privilege.

This minuet has been going on a least since 1796, when a president named George Washington declined to give the House of Representatives documents relating to the negotiation of John Jay's unpopular if prudent treaty with the British. And the precedent was set.

It was set for a good reason. How equal would supposedly co-equal branches of the government be if the legislative were given access to the candid, confidential discussions of the executive? About as equal as they would be if the White House had access to all the confidential discussions of members of Congress and their aides. And how long would discussions in the White House remain candid if presidential aides knew that what they tell the boss in confidence might not remain confidential?

It was Washington's far-seeing young aide, Alexander Hamilton, who explained in Federalist Paper 70 that a unitary executive branch headed by one accountable official was essential to effective republican government. And it was Hamilton who, as the first president's most trusted adviser, understood that the principle of executive privilege flowed logically from the separation of powers in the Constitution that he had helped shape, and then argued for in the Federalist Papers.

Washington had the good judgment, as usual, to take his brilliant aide's advice, and the doctrine of executive privilege was born. It would become a tradition. The wisdom of our Federalist forbears tends to be obscured at partisan times like these (and theirs) but it still beckons like a light. If we would but see.

A number of presidents have invoked executive privilege over the years. Not just George Washington in 1796 but Presidents Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson, Tyler, Polk, Fillmore, Buchanan, Lincoln, Grant, Hayes, Cleveland, both Roosevelts, Coolidge. Hoover, and Truman. And, in more recent times, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton.

They all understood that the power to subpoena is the power to destroy, and that they owed a duty not just to their own presidency but to future ones to fight such intrusions.

Speaking of Messrs. Nixon and Clinton, both Congress and the courts have every right to use subpoenas in order to obtain evidence of a possible crime - like Richard Nixon's White House tapes or Bill Clinton's grand jury testimony. Hence the current attempt to manufacture a crime, or at least a scandal, out of this president's decision to replace eight federal prosecutors, all political appointees who were serving at the president's pleasure.

If the Democratic majorities in Congress think they've got the goods on this president, or on his hapless attorney general, then let them begin impeachment proceedings and prove that high crimes and misdemeanors have been committed. But as Richard Nixon infamously said on tape, and Bill Clinton demonstrated at excruciating length, "Perjury is an awful hard rap to prove."

In place of impeachment proceedings, what Congress is producing is a lot of overheated rhetoric. Exhibit No. 1 may be the letter to the White House from John Conyers and Patrick Leahy, chairmen of the House and Senate Judiciary Committees. Its most questionable assertion: "The veil of secrecy you have attempted to pull over the White House by withholding documents and witnesses is unprecedentedŠ."

Unprecedented? Tell it to George Washington.

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Hi!
don't know if you read these or not Paul, but I really enjoy your stuff.
Thanks

Its always like that
Forbes Magazine used to put out a special magazine when the decade turns -- don't know if they still do -- and I saved the ones from 1970, 1980 and 1990. These magazines looked back at the decade just passed and predicted the decade to come, and if you go back and read them now, especially the one on the 1980s, you will laugh at how wrong they were. The difficulty with predicting the future is that you tend to assume that the future will be exactly like the present only more so. The 1980s were nothing like the 1970s, not only because of Ronald Reagan but because of the personal computer and the first fumbling attempts at the wireless telephone -- and the 1990s were nothing like the 1980s because of Bill Clinton and the Internet.

I have a book called 2080 that was written in 1980 and purports to predict the world of 100 years on. One of the things that makes me smile now when I read it is the assumption that virtually everybody smokes. Oh, it does have a couple of intriguing ideas but they are already in place; one of them is the outsourcing of service work, presented to the credulous house guest as something new and astonishing and wonderful. Presented in tandem with telecommuting, which has pretty much come and gone vis a vis popularity, it is presented as a way to provide service 24/7 and an extension of leisure for the worker instead of what it turned out to be: a perpetual treadmill and the inevitable truth that the person on the other end of the phone or the e-mail will neither speak nor understand enough of your own language to help you. The only thing they did get right was that in 2080 Africa will still be a tribal morass filled with starving and dangerous people.

Prediction is so very difficult, especially when it concerns the future.

Warren Small
I beg to differ with your assesment of the role of Congress in war making. While Congress is given the right to declare war, that does not mean the the President is to serve as C-in-C at their direstion; if that were the case we would have 535 people attempting to be C-in-C and nothing would ever get done.

And contrary to your assertions, it was the Congress viewing much of the same intel that the executive had who gave the President authority to wage war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and anywhere else the President saw fit to go after the forces who use terror as a weapon against us. They gave the authorization and if they wanted to stop it now all they have to do is remove funding for the war---but they aren't going to do that because it wold be bad politics for them.

The Constitution was written to make sure no branch grew too strong, but as much as you complain about the imbalance of power now, it all comes back to the Congress. They have the authority to limit the scope of the federal courts, including SCOTUS, yet they are afraid to do so. They even allowed SCOTUS to thumb its nose at a law they wrote to keep SCOTUS from ruling in certain cases. The Congress has also ceded power to SCOTUS in policy cases as a CYA move; let SCOTUS legislate from the bench on topics they couldn't get done in a legislative session.

The Spirit od 1776 was not to give inordinate power to one branch or another, it was to create a new NATION out of the various states; that is why the Articles of Confederation were replaced with a Constitution, so that the states were part of a whole and not independent actors. It was not to make Congress more powerful, or to give them ultimate authority over the Executive.


Journalist
I don't assume the Wash Post reporter(s) had an intent to misrepresent fact. It was most likely only ignorance on the part of journalists. While so many so called journalist are adept at the use of words, they fail miserably at upholding the long standing tradition of verification. Truth seems to no longer have any value - today it is getting the "by line," getting on air, getting mentioned, and generally just recognition.

They take writing and broadcast courses in college, but only the basic requirements of history, political science, and philosophy. Suppose they are not required to take any courses that require research or integrity.

CONGRESSIONAL POWER AND MYTHS
Congress was not given the power to issue subpeonas and contempt charges by the constitution. Indeed, this is just another outgrowth of a runaway liberal Supreme Court. Congress is NOT and never has been intended to be a judicial branch of government. If I were Bush I would challange their authority to issue subpeonas and I would ignore any spurious contaemt charges. Perhaps the court has moved back to the center enough to straighten some of the more blatent mistakes of the past out. If congress doesn't like what the president is doing they have two options, they can cut money to his programs or they can impeach him. There is no leagal option for political granstanding by investigation.

As for controlling how a war is to fought, congress has no authority on that score at all. That is one area the consitution is clear on. Congress has the authority to "decalre war" but they will not do that. They do a "semi-declaration" by authorizing military action. If the actually declare war, the president gets a lot of new powers he ordinarily doesn't get and congress loses power. Therefore, even if you had a "Pearl Harbor" today, you will never see another declaration of war.

Greenberg's wisdom
This article is one of the few I have ever seen anywhere that gets the philosophical underpinnings of the US Constitution right. Harry Truman famously had a sign on his desk: "The buck stops here." If he actually believed that, he was a tyrant. The buck isn't supposed to stop with the president, nor with the congress, nor with the supreme court. The buck is supposed to be passed around and around, and NOBODY but the people gets the last word.

Today the problem is that everyone seems to think that SCOTUS gets the last word. Wrong! The supreme court isn't supreme over anything except other courts. Congress can exempt legislation from the court's purview, but they don't have the courage to do so. The president can simply refuse to enforce a court decision that he deems wrong. This was done historically by Andy Jackson (who, in his individual case at the time, I believe was wrong), and by Abe Lincoln (who I believe was right in his individual case).

If the president believes congress is wrong in removing legislation from the court's purview, he can veto the legislation, or refuse to enforce it. If the congress believes the president is wrong in ignoring the court, they can impeach him or de-fund his policies. In any case, we the people can vote the bums out, so we get the last word. That's what is meant by "checks and balances," and Greenberg gets it right.


Greenberg's wisdom
Not only has Greenberg gotten it right, but here is the best sequence of responses I've seen on Townhall yet about the Constitution.

I'm saving a copy of the page... for my own use, of course.

Rickey Braddam

Faster Pussycat & tgw Whale
Faster Pussycat: The problem here is not in the President claiming executive privilege, but in Congress pretending that it has some stake in the hiring and firing of US Attorneys. Once the Congress finishes with it's advise and consent role, what happens in the Executive is none of its business. The US Attorneys are employees of the Executive Branch and serve at the pleasure of the President; he has every right to dismiss them for whatever reason he wishes. This is an example of Congress a) overstepping its boundaries, and b) attempting to manufacture a scandal. Congressional oversight does not extend to whom the President chooses to nominate or to fire, that is held exclusively for the President. It is not the President who is acting improperly here, it is the Congress in inserting itself into the inner workings of the Executive and trying to makie itself arbiter of what is fair or right for the Executive to do. Please show me where the Constitution gives this power to the Congress if you please. I won't hold my beath, because you're not going to be able to produce that information!

Whale: Please do not misrepresent the sign on Truman's desk and try to insinuate that he was some sort of tyrant. We all know that his sign was to let everyone know that he was accountable for his actions and would not pass the buck to others for any mistakes he had made. The buck is not supposed to be passed around to everyone, it has to stop somewhere and the President's desk is good enough for me.

TNhillbilly
If you really wish to see a discussion of Constitutional issues go to the following link (requires Adobe Acrobat).

This is a copy of the Constitution, broken down by section in pdf format, with discussion regarding interpretations and footnoted to cases. It is current to 2002.

It is provided free via the U.S. Government. Note that because the Gob says it is does not necessarily make it so. At least hot forever. SC justices change from time to time.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/browse2002.html#04supp

Congressional oversight.
While it is true that the Constitution does not explicitly grant Congress the power of oversight these investigatory duties are an inherent part of Congress' authority to levy taxes, regulate commerce, form tribunals inferior to the supreme court, run impeachment proceedings etc.

This is covered by the "necessary and proper clause" and it is somewhat puzzling to me that the people on this forum view it as an unjustified legislative overreach.

Decades of Executive malfeasance, from Watergate to Iran/Contra to Whitewater would have gone un-investigated were it not for a vigilant congress holding subpoenas at the ready.

Moreover the public has a right to expect that the Justice Department not be used as a tool for political axe grinding on behalf of the President. And Justice Department officials should be able to reasonably expect that their continued employment is not placed at the whim of the RNC (or DNC for that matter).

I'd say the same thing if it were a Democratic President playing these games with the Justice Department and a Republican Congress was crying foul.

And, if the conservatives on here were honest with themselves, they'd admit that their stances would change if the shoe were on the other foot so to speak.

The fourth and final power
Of the US Government never gets any credit, or press.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —

That to secure these rights,

Governments are instituted among Men,

deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Too bad we the people do not unite and use it more often and restore the government to its SERVANT ROLE.

I am for putting the Senate and Congress on a pay scale they earn, minimum wage.

money found in the freezer
How did this happen. A court made the Executive Dept (FBI) return papers and money found in the freezer of a Congressman.

How is the Executive Dept supposed to get back the tons of paper that Congress made them send to Congress for this phoney US Atty fight?

I thought what was good for one, was good for the other.

Well Stahl 73
You write:

Moreover the public has a right to expect that the Justice Department not be used as a tool for political axe grinding on behalf of the President. And Justice Department officials should be able to reasonably expect that their continued employment is not placed at the whim of the RNC (or DNC for that matter).

I'd say the same thing if it were a Democratic President playing these games with the Justice Department and a Republican Congress was crying foul.
--------

I am at a loss over this argument, how it has made such a storm in a tea pot.

Its a non issue, and is spitting into the wind to get wet is all I can figure.

Nothing about the firing of a US Attorney by a President and replacing him with anyone he chooses is new.

Billy bob Klinton fired 93 (NOT 8) and not a peep, cause a President has this right, like it or lump it.

Fired! all 93 U.S. attorneys
Guess the democrats were not paying attention back then



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n16_v50/ai_21123146

Justice denied: as President Clinton has time after time made a mockery of his oath of office, his attorney general has followed suit - Janet Reno
National Review, Sept 1, 1998



In the history of the Republic, the names of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno will be forever linked, a prospect that ought to appall Miss Reno. That is entirely due to her efforts to preserve the President from his own follies, to use a polite word. Bill Clinton heads what is probably the most corrupt Administration ever, while Miss Reno has been called the worst of all Clinton's Cabinet appointments. From his point of view, of course, she may be the best, which comes to much the same thing.


Miss Reno suddenly fired all 93 U.S. attorneys. She said the decision had been made in conjunction with the White House. Translation: The President ordered it.

I was hoping someone would bring up.
Mr. Clinton

First of all appointing a whole new batch of attorneys at the beginning of a President's term in office is fundamentally different from firing a select few at the mid-term. As you said Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan etc. all appointed new attorneys at the beginning of their term.

What is unique about this case is that these Attorneys were fired for allegedly political reasons midway through the President's term of office.

Moreover, the argument that these attorneys serve at the "pleasure of the president" fails to hold water for the simple reason that neither the President nor Attorney General Gonzales seem to have known anything about the firings!

Do you honestly believe that these attorneys serve at the pleasure of Monica Goodling, Kyle Sampson or Karl Rove?

Lastly talentscout, it is difficult to take your arguments seriously when you pepper them with juvenile misspellings like Billy bob Klinton. I'm trying to have a grown-up conversation here, save the dhimmocrat, demoncrap, repugnican stuff for the Daily Kos.

Necessary and Proper LOL
The "necessary and proper clause" refers to the authorities specifically mentioned in the previous paragraphs. It does NOT give Congress authority to do unending investigations over matters that have NOTHING to do with legislation. You say that these "investigation" powers are "inherent" in the power to legislate because that is the same terminology the lying justices of the liberal court said when they issued the ruling. Any time I here terms like "inherent" used when discussing legal matters I reach for my wallet because I know a shyster is getting ready to make a withdrawal.

Here is the COMPLETE paragraph.

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

As I said in the previous post, Congress has the power to do one of two things with respect to the Executive Branch. They can deny funding or they can impeach. That is ALL they have. The rest is overreaching cr*p dreamed up by a liberal SC.

If Congress thinks that the AG has broken a law they can 1) Demand that he be charged with a crime and prosecuted, 2) defund his office until Bush fires him, or 3) Impeach Bush and pray that the next President will fire him.

"Necessary and Proper"
Well the first argument for enumerated powers under the necessary and proper cause was brought about by Alexander Hamilton, author of many of the Federalist papers and a delegate to the constitutional convention. This argument was supported by the ruling opinion in McCuloch V. Maryland.

Even way back in the late 18th/early 19th century the Founders realized that the Constitution could not possibly cover all foreseeable situations.

Moreover, for all you strict constructionists out there I have a question. Where can you find Executive privilege in the Constitution?

And I was expecting you to defend
Billy bob Klinton Mrs/Miss/Mr Stahl


---------------

Stahl73 writes: Monday, August, 06, 2007 6:09 PM
I was hoping someone would bring up.
Mr. Clinton.
---------
talent scout
How strange

Hoping?
Couldn't you do it on your own?
It is in direct relation to your snarling about firing US Attorneys, with waaaaa, waaaaaaa.

-----------------

Stahl73 writes:
First of all appointing a whole new batch of attorneys at the beginning of a President's term in office is fundamentally different from firing a select few at the mid-term. As you said Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan etc. all appointed new attorneys at the beginning of their term.
---------------

talent scout:
Splitting hairs and carries no meaning.
Nothing in the Constitution about "when" one is fired.

Besides the fact 1998 was not an election year for Billy bob.



-------
Stahl73 writes:
What is unique about this case is that these Attorneys were fired for allegedly political reasons midway through the President's term of office.
---------

talent scout:
Are you seriously trying to make someone believe Billy bob's firing of the 93 as NOT political?
That deserves a horse laugh.

---------
Stahl73 writes:
Moreover, the argument that these attorneys serve at the "pleasure of the president" fails to hold water for the simple reason that neither the President nor Attorney General Gonzales seem to have known anything about the firings!
-------------------

talent scout:
Prove it
Silly assumption when it hardly matters one way or another .

So now you want it both ways, typical liberal.
It was done (according to you) for political reasons, but the President had nothing to do with it, nor the Attorney General, YET they should get slammed for firing them for political reasons.
Which is it?

How can they be accused of using "politics" (oh my God) and NOT even KNOW WHY?

Waste of time arguing over such twists, will leave it to the insane lefties.

To finish with Stahl73


Stahl73 writes:



Do you honestly believe that these attorneys serve at the pleasure of Monica Goodling, Kyle Sampson or Karl Rove?
-----------------

talent scout:
I would say at their displeasure.






-------
Stahl73 writes:

Lastly talentscout, it is difficult to take your arguments seriously when you pepper them with juvenile misspellings like Billy bob Klinton. I'm trying to have a grown-up conversation here, save the dhimmocrat, demoncrap, repugnican stuff for the Daily Kos.----------

talent scout:

You make me feel so grown up with your "convincing" arguments.

Actually your hypocricy makes me wanna puke.

I spell Billy bob's name exactly the way I feel about the creep.
You do not like it?
Tough, either deal with it or quit reading my posts, I could care less one way or the other.

Oversight and impeachment.
Congress may very well bring impeachment charges against Mr. Gonzales. But before they do that they need to conduct an investigation to see if he committed an impeachable offense, hence the oversight hearings.

Again these oversight hearings are constitutionally justified because they are a "necessary and proper" extension of Congress' explicit power to impeach officials.


Flame war.
I'm not interested in it.

I'm open to criticism but again, let's try to avoid the ad hominem shall we?

Stahl73
There is no such thing as "Executive Privilege" either but the idiots at the SC had to come up with something after they gave Congress the authority of the Judicial Branch. if you will remember back the use of this so-called privilege did not come into use until Congress started issuing subpoenas. If Congress had never issued one then the Executive would not have had the cause to ignore it.

And I do so love to hear ya'll quoting the Federalist when it benefits a liberal cause but conveniently forgetting it when it doesn't. Myself, I like the anti-federalist. Nearly everything those papers said about a government run wild has actually come to pass, while the pooh-poohing done by Madison over the concerns of others has proven to be a bad judgment.

And finally, ALL of the hearings done by Congress in the past decade have been shown to be nothing more than political posturing. Not a single d*mn one that I have seen gets anything useful done. On that score the Dems and Repubs are bipartisan. They know exactly what the outcome of their end is before the hearing ever starts.

If I had my way when we did that second Constitutional Convention to pass an amendment to bring out term limits and the actual limits of the Supreme Court, I would add another amendment that forbids Congress from having hearings about ANYTHING other than legislation that was actually in progress AND forbidding TV cameras.

I would also make it unlawful for a congress critter to have ANYONE in their office other than other Government employees and unlawful for Congress to get advice from anyone except at one of the non-televised hearings. That would get rid of the lobbyists.

Stahl73
Congress can not impeach Gonzales. I don't seem to be able to get through to you that Congress is NOT the Judicial Branch.

Impeachment.
Vic,

Actually the HR does have the power to impeach Executive branch officials, they did it to Secretary of War Belknap in 1876. The Senate eventually acquitted him but by then he had already resigned which made it a moot point. So it is in fact within their (explicit) power to impeach Gonzales. Realistically I doubt they will, but there is a precedent for it.

I'm sorry that you disagree with the last 200 years of American jurisprudence but the fact of the matter is that the government's powers have evolved and will continue to do so, and each new assertion by one branch will be checked by another branch. Congress issues subpoenas, the Executive responds with claiming executive privilege and the Courts arbitrate the whole mess. It's not perfect but it's the best we've got.

And at present there is a Conservative majority on the SC so if the Justices are as swayed by ideology as you think they should side with the administration.

Also, I think I've kept a pretty consistent position on this but let me repeat myself from a few posts back:


"I'd say the same thing if it were a Democratic President playing these games with the Justice Department and a Republican Congress was crying foul."

All of us, Liberal Conservative or other, should want a non-partisan Department of Justice.

Wow, I totally agree with Paul Greenberg
I just re-read the article that we're all commenting on and I've been inadvertently lifting all of my constitutional arguments from Mr. Greenberg.

So call me an accidental plagiarist but don't claim that I'm some foaming at the mouth liberal hippie no-goodnik. Unless of course you feel the same way about Mr. Greenberg.

Stahl73
I don't think we have a conservative majority on the bench, and to be truthful, if the court had not swung so far left in the decisions for the last 75 years I would not want one. To me a perfect court would be one who ruled on the law based on the Constitution AS IT IS WRITTEN.

I fear "activists" in the court. Now I know that everyone defines that term differently but to me it means a judge who invents law. Currently the liberals just love activist judges because they have been controllingt the court for 75 years. If we ever get a true conservative and activist court they will rue the day that judges were allowed to make law.

As for the last 200 years of jurisprudence, I think the court headed to ruin with Marbury v Madison when they usurped the power to rule on the Consitution to begin with. Nowhere in the Constitution does it give them this authority.

Vic
Not sure I can agree with this


Marbury was a public official
--------
I think the court headed to ruin with Marbury v Madison when they usurped the power to rule on the Consitution to begin with. Nowhere in the Constitution does it give them this authority.
------------
Article III
Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority........


In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction

--------

Judge Marshalls words

quote:The constitution vests the whole judicial power of the United States in one Supreme Court, and such inferior courts as congress shall, from time to time, ordain and establish. This power is expressly extended to all cases arising under the laws of the United States; and, consequently, in some form, may be exercised over the present case; because the right claimed is given by a law of the United States.

In the distribution of this power it is declared that "the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction in all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be a party. In all other cases, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction."

It has been insisted, at the bar, that as the original grant of jurisdiction, to the supreme and inferior courts, is general, and the clause, assigning original jurisdiction to the Supreme Court, contains no negative or restrictive words, the power remains to the legislature, to assign original jurisdiction to that court in other cases than those specified in the article which has been recited; provided those cases belong to the judicial power of the United States.

-------





Stahl writes:
I'm sorry that you disagree with the last 200 years of American jurisprudence but the fact of the matter is that the government's powers have evolved and will continue to do so, and each new assertion by one branch will be checked by another branch
------------------


Then the oath to uphold the document is meangingless.


Which is why we are no longer a "United States" of America.

Talent Scout
My point was that Marshall said that the court had the sole authority to rule on constitutionality of laws inacted by congress. This is not an authority granted by the Consitution. In fact, the entire case of Marbury was one manufactured by Marshall and Adams for the sole purpose of increasing power of the federal government. The area of the courts is one where I think the founders erred greatly. They wrote very little about what the court was responsible for largely because they viewed it as the least powerful of the branches and really intended that it be used only for final appeals and for disputes between the States.

With Marbury they grabbed a large amount of power and did it in a manner that prevented congress or the President from doing anything about it at the time while the iron was hot. (The actual finding of Marbury was that he did not get his job because the law that was pasted to give him the ability to sue via the writ of mandumas was unconsitutional) Jefferson could do nothing because there was nothing for him to protest. The actual ruling, outside of Marbury looking for a job somewhere else, had no initial impact. All it did was creat a time bomb for the supremes to rule on in the next case.

Talent Scout
BTW, it seems obvious that Stahl73 is one of those who beieves in a rubber Consitution. My belief is that if you allow rubber checks and rubber Constitutions you will sooner or later have worthless money and government because both are worth the same, NOTHING.

Well, its late and I
have to check out for the night. Bye all.

Vic
In reading Judge Marshalls words and Article III of the Constitution, I fail to see where he made a power grab.

Am I missing something here?

Stahl 73
Is the sort of person who does not mind some judge acting as a legislative authority, as long as it is a socialist/liberal.

She would be raising **** if one of them went the other way and made up some law not in the constitution.

The Constitution cannot be improved upon in my opinion, just as it reads.

And it does not take a law degree to read it.

Unless he wants to twist words around as they do today

Constitutional worth.

I happen to think that there is great value in a Constitution that can evolve along with the nation. Obviously this change is slow and gradual but we can't expect every word of every sentence to be literally interpreted as though we haven't experienced 220+ years of change.

I believe that the Ideals expressed in the living Constitution represent the greatest experiment in the history of humanity.

In fact I believe in the Constitution so much that at three points in my life I've taken an oath to preserve, protect and defend it.




SCOTUS
7 of the 9 SC justices have been nominated by Republican Presidents.

If that's still too liberal for you I don't know what to say, your argument is with the GOP not with me.

talent scout
You have to be familiar with how the case came about to understand the nature of the power grab. The facts leading to the case rarely come out in the liberal media or in high school history/civics. This link (pdf) takes you to a Yale Law school paper which discusses it.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/jbalkin/articles/whatarethefactsofmarbury1.pdf

Stahl73
As I said earlier, you liberals love a rubber Constitution and an activist court when the court is liberal. How will you like it when it finally does become conservative. Consider for the sake of argument a court made up of people unlike myself who are in the more radical conservative political persuasion and they believed in deciding the outcome of a case based personal belief of "justice" and what the law should be rather than what the Constituion says.

The Case Study:

A person of ME extraction is removed from an aircraft due to reports from several passengers of suspicious behavior. He is a non-citizen on a legal visa. The aircraft captain reviewed the reports and held that the person be removed. The suit is thrown out of court by a judge based on the recent "John Doe Law". The appelate court restores the suit saying that by the new law the jury must decide worthiness of the suit (this is the implication of the wording of the law after being watered down by the Dems). The John Does appeal to the SC.

The ruling from the activist court is the following. The wording of the new law is that the jury must decide case worthiness, however we hold thew JOhn Doe law to be unconstitutional in total for the following reasons. 1) It is not the job of the jury to determine but case worthiness but the originating judge. 2) The new law violates the rights of citizens to seak redress. 3) The new law violates common sense. 4) Resident aliens have no "rights" to redress under the U.S. Consitution and are therefore not eligable to sue except under specific international contract law.

The complaint of the resident alien against the John Does was thrown out by the originated judge, therefore the case is held to be closed. The resident alien's visa should be canceled and he should be deported for suspicious behaviour.

Wouldn't the liberals just love the outcome of the above case?

Stahl73
Assignment by Republicans does not mean the justice is conservative. There really has only been one conservative Republican president in the past 100 years and that was Reagan. Most were either very liberal or were somewhat liberal. Aeven Reagan's appointements turned bad, but then he had a Dem congress who would not confirm a conservative judge. "Borking" started under Reagan's congress.

talent scout
Marshall's power grab is in the sudden right of the SCOTUS to decide the constitutionality of all laws passed. That gives the SCOTUS the ultimate veto power and the power to impose its policy preferences on the country with no redress by the people. We all know that the lower courts follow the rulings of the SCOTUS and would never challemge them, no matter how nonsensical or blatantly unconstitutional. The Marbury ruling placed the SCOTUS in the catbird seat, so to speak, because there is nowhere to go after they have made their rulings. As for Marshall himself, do not forget that he had been a fierce political opponent of Jefferson's for years and this ruling basically gave his old opponent a black eye and gave the SCOTUS nearly unrivaled power. Having the keys to decide what the Constitution says and means puts the judges in the seats of ultimte power, as their rulings have the force of law---without the people being heard on the issues.

Well you got me.
I'm just a rubber constitution lovin' liberal. Never mind that (as I said before) all of my constitutional arguments are pretty much in line with what Mr. Greenberg has said in this article.

I have to admit I'm not fully clear on the implications of this new "John Doe" law and I'm not sure I get where you're going with this hypothetical.

Specifically I'm not sure why this "suspicious person" should be deported, my reading of the new law doesn't require that anyone accused of acting squirrely on a plane be deported, only that you can't know who your accuser is. But then again I'm admittedly fuzzy on this newest law.

Lastly, it wasn't that Bork was just really conservative, it was the fact that he showed a contempt for the rule of law during the Watergate controversy. Particularly troublesome was his part in the "Saturday night massacre".

Flagwaver
And Vic, thanks for your posts and the information you provide.

Here is where I am confused with the idea the Supreme is not the designated authority to decide laws and their constitutionality.


Article III
Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.


Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.


.
----------

section two seems to be clear the SC is the base of authority to judge law.



talent scout
Nowhere in section 2 does it state that the SC is the sole authority for determining whether or not a law passed by Congress is Constitutional. It doesn't even say that the SC can determine that, it says that it may rule on cases arising from federal law, not the viability of the law itself.

For further study read the collected papers of John C. Calhoun.

Stahl73
The case study is the other side of the coin for activist conservative courts. I hope you like your rubber Constitution when that happens. Note that the operative word there is when.
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