Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, July 04, 2007
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Me, Ma, and Ben Franklin
by Paul Greenberg
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


I didn't much like the immigration bill that just stalled in the U.S. Senate. In fact, I disliked it. Intensely. And I was for it. You can imagine how the folks who were against it felt about the bill.

You may not have been crazy about it, either, if for reasons different and even opposite from mine. It was the kind of bill that's advertised as a Grand Bargain, by which is meant another shoddy compromise that has something to offend everybody. My own list of objections was starting to get as long and involved as the bill itself. To name just a couple of the big ones:

-The bill was mercenary, not family-friendly. It replaced family connections as a basis for gaining entrance to the United States with a point system weighted heavily in favor of those who came bringing skills that the economy needs. Or rather that the government says the economy needs. Those needs wouldn't be determined by private companies or individual employers but mainly by statisticians in Washington.

Socio-economic class would trump family values. That's no way to build a country, or at least it's not the way this one was built. And I kind of like the way this one turned out.

-The bill would have instituted a point system that Rube Goldberg could have devised, giving different weights to different qualifications. There would be points for English proficiency, experience living here, a solid job offer from an American employer, and higher levels of education - especially in math, science and technology. Your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free? Who needs 'em? They'd be elbowed aside by software engineers, credentialed professionals and assorted technicians.

We're all products of our own experience, and the first thing I thought when reading an outline of this voluminous monstrosity was: Ma would never have made the cut.

Yes, my mother was young and strong. But she had no formal schooling, none at all. She was, as we liked to say in the family, illiterate in five languages. That's what growing up on a battlefield of the First World War, Eastern Front, will give you: a true European education. Her major was suffering.

What she wanted most in life, desperately wanted, and would have overcome all obstacles to achieve, and just about did, was to be Š an American. She wanted work, safety, respect, a home, a family, a chance. She knew who she was, and hated where she was - Europe, a word she pronounced to her dying day with a bitterness you could hear and feel and taste at 10 paces.

Ma also knew where she wanted to be: America. America! It would be all Europe wasn't. Here she could be who she was, without apology, or on sufferance. In that sense, she was American before she ever disembarked at the Port of Boston, on February 10, 1921. There wasn't a fence in the world that was going to keep that 19-year-old girl, traveling alone, out of this country.

I saw a picture on television the other day, one of those grainy shots of an illegal who'd just climbed over the fence. Finally on American soil, exhausted, still peering about anxiously, but alive, hopeful, grateful, he stopped to cross himself. I thought of Ma.

How do you quantify that kind of absolute determination, absolute faith? Point system, shmoint system. And that was only the beginning of the problems with this bill. There was its length, its complexity, its obscurity Š and its encouraging the growth here of a class of guest workers, European-style - people who would never qualify as citizens but stay here as aliens for economic reasons.

If immigrants want to be in America but not of it, we can't use 'em - no matter how valuable their economic skills. There's something a lot more valuable then material wealth: unreserved loyalty. Not keeping one foot here, the other there.

Then there was the bill's requirement that illegal immigrants who want to set out on the path to citizenship go home to apply for re-entry. Come on. Report to be deported? Would you?

Yes, we need to fine and penalize those who have violated our laws and come here illegally. We need to know who these people are and where they are and what they're doing. Most of all, we need to set them on the path to legal, full-fledged citizenship - but not ahead of all those who are following the rules and have waited, for years, to get in.

Far from allowing too much immigration, this bill wouldn't allow enough. Around the world, the most determined, ambitious, hard-working and congenitally hopeful people in the world are dying to get into this country, sometimes literally. We are turning our backs on the most valuable form of wealth ever offered a nation: human capital.

Nor did this bill sufficiently emphasize education for immigrants - education in English, in civics, and generally in what we were once allowed to call Americanism. I'm all for the wonderful mosaic of cultures in this country - social, religious, linguistic, culinary and every other kind in this country of countries. Each contributes something to the way we all see things, think about things. We learn from each other. But here there is room for only one, indivisible, unhyphenated civic culture. A civic and civil culture that gives us a common tongue to argue in, and common ground to stand on. E pluribus unum, it used to be said: From out of many, one. Not from one, many.

So why settle for a cockamamie immigration bill with its point-shmoint system and all the rest of its faults, dangers and unknowns? For the same reason Benjamin Franklin was for another hodgepodge of provisions he wasn't exactly thrilled about, another Great Bargain that was more a vague and untested scheme. It was the deal concocted at a convention held in Philadelphia during the steaming summer heat of 1787: the Constitution of the United States.

The Fourth of July is a good day to re-read Mr. Franklin's final address to the delegates to that convention. It is one of the wisest tributes to the spirit of compromise in a republic ever delivered.

Why would a practical, experienced old sage like Ben Franklin go along with such a vague, dubious system with all its soon to be discovered faults? Because it was a system, rather than the loose, deteriorating non-system, more entropy than energy, that it would replace.

Those senators who voted against this immigration bill were in effect voting to keep what we have now: a non-system, an amnesty in practice that grows uglier, more dangerous, more unjust and exploitative and anarchic every year it's allowed to persist, rather than a hopeful step, however shaky, towards a more perfect Union.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
the latino cabal for scamnesty
Did anybody miss how Carlos Gutierrez, Mel Martinez, Ken Salazar, and Roberto Menendez who are all rich hispanics were omnipresent together telling us what a good thing the reconquista would be for us, but nobody in the MM suggested that ethnocentric racism was in play? Throw in Vicente Fox shill "smilin' Juan" Hernandez and Geraldo for that matter, and myriad spokespersons for La Raza, LULAC, MALDEF, etc. ad nauseam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051502022.html

Pan-Mexican Presidente Jorge bush helped make Martinez head of the RNC (Rino Network for reConquista), which is helping drive Republicans away from the current morphed RINO Party.

This globalist, open borders, multicultural, bilingual, NAU/SPP, scamnesty (bring them out of the shadows with a path to citizenship) disingenuous drivel tripe is alienating Middle America. The ILLEGAL alien invasion and permeation will destroy America like a cancer destroying the host body UNLESS we radiate it at the source. We need to secure the border and enforce EXISTING laws.

Fully 72% consider this a HIGH priority (Rasmussen) while < 30% care much about a path to citizenship for the serial lawbreakers. It is NOT that "our immigration system is broken"-- au contraire, it is nonfeasance by our government which instead serves as a welcome mat south of the border. Presidente Jorge is the Quisling-In-Chief. We need to KEEP RATTLING THEIR CAGES in Washington where cheap labor lobbying $ and latino votes direct their thinking against the best socio-economic interests of America. YOU can contact them easily right here-- bookmark it and give them a piece of your mind regularly-- in English!

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Some light reading where you can stay engaged to save America from the onslaught:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/immigration_bill_failure_proves_rasmussen_s_first_law_of_politics
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.grassfire.org/
http://www.newsmax.com/hottopics/Immigration!Borders.shtml
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm
http://www.grasstopsusa.com/
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchd74c
http://capwiz.com/usbc/index_frame.dbq?url=http://capwiz.com/usbc/home/
http://stopspp.com/stopspp/?page_id=11
http://vdare.com/misc/070607_economist.htm
http://www.upi.com/Zogby/UPI_Polls/2007/06/21/analysis_majority_oppose_immigration_bill/2755/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTUyZjY3NzExYjIxODU0NmVmYWE4MTAxNTZlOWJkNDk=

TIME: Why Amnesty Makes Sense
A recent cover story in TIME suggested it is time for amnesty. I read the facile, vacuous arguments they proffered. I could see this one coming --> two weeks later, TIME'S Inbox was full --> letters broke 90%(!) for: "Amnesty makes no sense-- we need to enforce existing laws." TIME,
not exactly considered the neanderthal conservatives' favorite fish wrapper, admitted it was their, "biggest mail getter."

When people like Vicente Fox's artful shill Juan Hernandez and Geraldo bray, "Most Americans want a path to citizenship for these good people, our good friends," they are simply proselytizing the big lie. I actually like it when unctuous "smilin' Juan" Hernandez comes on TV to tell us that ILLEGALS are good for us, and Geraldo says they are not only net benefits, but also LESS prone to crime than citizens. Those tall ones/canards are GUARANTEED to rally Middle America!

Middle America has just spoken to Congress as well as to TIME. Fully 72% of us believe that it is a HIGH priority to secure the border and enforce our laws, while fewer than 25% care much about "a path to citizenship to bring them out of the shadows." (Rasmussen) It is NOT that our immigration system is broken-- it is instead that Presidente Jorge and his open borders NAU/SPP minions have been willfully and treasonously nonfeasant in failing to enforce EXISTING laws.
In light of 9/11, this has been criminally neglectful nonfeasance.

Washington was stunned, folks
Something Middle America does not realize--> the power elites are different from you and me. They LIKE their ILLEGAL domestic help-- the ILLEGALS do not seem to be a pernicious threat when they nod deferentially from the mower at the golf course or in your nice yard. The elites don't rub elbows with them jabbering in espanol at Wal-Mart, or see them overwhelming emergency rooms for "free" medical care; and THEIR children go to exclusive private schools which are not enervated by bilingualism. The first time an "elite" might truly appreciate the problem is when she gets rear-ended by an uninsured ILLEGAL driving drunk without a license who cannot speak Ingles.

The remote power people get their news from the MM Washington Post, the N.Y. Times (a reason we got snookered into Iraq), the WSJ and TIME. Those rags all believe fundamentally in ILLEGAL immigration either to be PC, or for the "cheap" labor (which is ultimately EGREGIOUSLY expensive all-in to our society and economy-- see Heritage studies). TIME recently had a cover story as I noted here:

*********************************************

A recent cover story in TIME [Why Amnesty Makes Sense]suggested it is time for amnesty. I read the facile, vacuous arguments they proffered. I could see this one coming --> two weeks later, TIME'S Inbox was full --> letters broke 90%(!) for: "amnesty makes no "sense-- we need to enforce existing laws." TIME, not exactly considered the neanderthal conservatives' favorite fish wrapper, admitted it was, "The biggest mail getter."

When people like Vicente Fox's artful shill Juan Hernandez and Geraldo bray, "Most Americans want a path to citizenship for these good people, our good friends," they are simply proselytizing the BIG lies. I actually like it when unctuous "smilin' Juan" Hernandez comes on TV to tell us that ILLEGALS are good for us, and Geraldo alleges that they are not only net benefits, but also LESS prone to crime than citizens. Those tall ones/canards are GUARANTEED to rally Middle America! Middle America has just spoken to Congress as well as to TIME. Fully 72% (Rasmussen) of us believe that it is a high priority to secure the border and enforce our laws, and < 25% care much about "bringing them out of the shadows with a path to citizenship."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

We need to thank and support those in Washington who "get it" and had the temerity to stand up to the Conspiracy Of Evil. These Senators voted to stop Scamnesty the first time when it was a tougher vote... a couple were coming from the left/labor perspective: the great American Jeff Sessions (a VP possibility), Jim DeMint (courageous guy countering Quisling Lindseed Grahamos from his state), good guy David Vitter (La.), Coburn, Thune, pass Tester, Sununu, Stabenow (D), Smith (R-Or.), Shelby, Sanders (I), Roberts (Ks.), surprising globalist (probably labor vote) Rockefeller, McCaskill (a new 'Crat), liberal Landrieu, no nonsense Inhofe, border state Hutchison (VP candidate?) and sharp guy Cornyn (VP possibility), Inhofe (a solid guy), Grassley, Dorgan (labor man), Dole, Corker, Alexander, and Allard, and our two week-kneed Senators who got their minds right because of us Ga. crackers cracking the whip (no prisoners!), Chambliss and Isakson.

Here again is the EASY way to reach those in Congress at their OFFICIAL contact sites... bookmark it and contact them often. People just like YOU derailed Scamnesty last week in a possibly watershed response to the vox populi, BUT WE MUST NOT WASTE THE OPPORTUNITY.

Tell them that you want TRUE enforcement FIRST, no fallacious path to citizenship, NO welfare for ILLEGAL aliens, NO voting without citizenship, and English should be our OFFICIAL and ONLY language.

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

(and a sample letter:)

Dear Senator McCaskill:

We saw you regularly on TV taking a courageous stand against the flow to oppose the amnesty legislation.

We realize that this is a complicated issue and that there were powerful lobbying forces on the other side. They tried to put lipstick on the pig, but it was still filthy with artful deceptions. Per Rasmussen, even two-thirds of
democrats feel that our highest priority should be stopping the flow of ILLEGAL aliens, and less than 25% of ALL voters are much worried about a path to citizenship for border crashers and visa violators.

If President Bush WANTED TO, he could live up to his oath of office and enforce EXISTING LAWS and build 800 miles of approved border fence, hire thousands of border guards, and enforce workplace employment laws. We simply need an Executive Branch that will respond to the clear will of the people. Enforcement FIRST-- then we can insist that ILLEGALS start playing by OUR rules (just like the rest of us have) if they truly want to apply to come back as citizens. Americans AND ILLEGALS are waiting for clear signs from Washington.

Thanks for your service to America.

Hal Donahue July, 04, 2007 8:33 AM

Deskjockey wrote:
"What has been this nations deconstruction is folks bringing in their own views of governance and imposing them on the founding father’s vision. We now have a Muslim in congress demanding to swear an oath on the Koran, we have the European Jew in congress that never saw a tax or redistribution plan they didn’t love, thinking they still are living in the great cultural Marxist center of Germany. We have my ancestors such as the Italian Pelosi and the Irish Murtha attacking the every fabric of this nation."

Hal Donahue writes:

The founders would I almost certainly look at the above with glee and cheerful approval. Were your ancestors Tories?


DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

I repeat from earlier post, the first Supreme Court Chief Justice and signer of the Paris Treaty, John Jay on social deconstruction from his writing in the Federalist Papers #85

"Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs..."

Clearly the founders would not find any joy in what you believe in.

My grandmother from England came in 1900 and I don’t know what her British politics were other than they were devout Brooklyn liberals. Her husband from Ireland coming the same time. They thought, what a country, we can vote for other people to give us money. I won’t repeat the story of when I was 10 and dad was trying to explain to me the benefits to our family of progressive taxes so we could get other's money.

Is that child abuse?

Greenberg is wrong on this, as
several others have effectively pointed out, incl. sbmcgraw. They *demand* things from a foreign country: how bizarre! Even more bizarre, others agree with them.

They get "in-state" tuition when citizens from other states do not.

For another specific issue, consider drivers' licenses. I've been told all my life that driving is a "privilege" not a "right". Yet driving laws are changed to allow illegals to get licenses because "they're going to drive anyway, this way we get to test them". Hmm, that does't seem to apply to many Americans, whose licenses are pulled for a host of reasons many of which have nothing to do with driving.


> Unless the stats have changed dramatically the biggest collectors of welfare and users of social welfare programs are white males living in rural areas <
Perhaps still in raw numbers, but much, much lower as a % of their population than immigrants.

> One Good thing from the bill
It flushed out the racists. <
Yes, like La Raza members. But they and their supporters are still presented as "noble" and Americans as "evil".

Paul
You are an idealist and much of what you wrote has been coming from liberals and has been responsible for the decline of our country. Secure out borders and let us as a sovereign nation know who is in this country. Most of us are immigrants or the childrn of immigrants, but our roots are legal.

apples and oranges
Paul comparing today's immigrants to those the likes of your mother is like comparing apples to oranges. Todays immigrants have no desire to be american or they would be already illegal or not. Today's immigrants are looking to exploit America. That is all. I suggest you re-examine the Fall of the Roman Empire and look and see what the Gemani people did to Rome and how it contributed enormously to the fall.

Greenberg is an idiot
They didn't vote against this bill to keep the status quo. They, from their constituents, were sending a message to weak and corrupt leadership that enough is enough. WE don't need rough government estimates selling us the demographics of a problem that the govt has been wholly incompetent in keeping track of.

The republicans that backed this bill did so for greed, not some altruistic vision of a better America. And for all we know, the twelve million people they talked about might have turned out to be 25 million. And the relatives they would have brought across could have numbered another 50 million or more. Fifty years down the road, America does not need to be in a position of having climate change, food shortages, geographic terrorism and another 100 million people that it cannot keep track of. IT is a recipe for big government and fascism.

It would be more meaningful to draw a comparison between the injection of 100 million people into America and the generational mushrooming seen in government, fatherless babies and crime all at the hands of Lyndon Johnson and his Great Society. Congress, feeling charitable and powerful decided with the stroke of a pen to pay poor women to have children and the near destruction of the black culture in AMerica ensued.

This Shamnesty act would have done just as much to curve the freedoms of what once was a great society - a country with almost no crime where everyone seemed to be able to get ahead with only one working parent.

This attempt to back into your sloppy preconceptions is a failure.

Paul
Paul says, "Then there was the bill's requirement that illegal immigrants who want to set out on the path to citizenship go home to apply for re-entry. Come on. Report to be deported? Would you?

Yes, we need to fine and penalize those who have violated our laws and come here illegally. We need to know who these people are and where they are and what they're doing. Most of all, we need to set them on the path to legal, full-fledged citizenship - but not ahead of all those who are following the rules and have waited, for years, to get in."

Paul, you seem to think that it's a stupid idea for us to expect people to go back to their country of origin, like it will never happen. But I'm incredulous that you would think that I would believe that we aren't going to put them ahead of the people already in line for citizenship. So what are we going to do with them while they wait for the legal backlog to empty? I suppose we'll just let them hang out in the US until their turn comes to swear allegiance, huh?

And how long do you think this will take? I'm not sure of the numbers, but I seem to remember hearing that there it takes at least 5 years to get citizenship and we let in about 1 million per year. (Someone correct those numbers if they're wrong.) At this rate, assuming a 5 year backlog and 12 million new applicants, it should take at least 17 years to add them all to the citizenship rolls. So are you saying that we should let them stay here illegally for up to 17 years, and probably more, considering that there are more likely 20 million here. That ups the gratis stay to 25 years.

But I'll bet that's not what you're saying at all, is it Paul. What you want is to speed up the process and just let them all in, both the current legal applicants and the illegals. In other words, let's just open the borders and accept all comers. Have you actually thought about this issue before you wrote this article?







Not about Mexicans
Paul, like a lot of others, doesn't get it. It's not about Mexicans. It's about instantly and immediately embracing 12 million to 20 million people who: 1) broke the law to enter this country; 2) are unskilled, uneducated and largely unwilling to change either of those two conditions; 3) don't really want citizenship in the first place. They want money and services, preferably free services.

It wouldn't matter where they came from. It's not about Mexico. Taking in up to 20 million people of this ilk in a heartbeat is not the right thing for America.

But Paul bemoans the fall of this bill because it was skills-and-contribution oriented, not "family" oriented. Makes me want to gag. I can say one thing: A lot of the opposition to the immigration bill WAS family-oriented, as in tons of people who want to take care of THEIR OWN families by not paying any more taxes to support government giveaways programs for illegals.

My own grandmother was a legal immigrant. She came here with a husband and two daughters. At age 27, her husband died. Then, when her best friend died leaving 3 children, she tooks in THOSE children too. She could speak English but couldnt read or write it. Five children, no husband and not many skills. She worked 2 jobs and all the kids pitched in like crazy. No one expected a hand-out, no one would take a hand-out. Show me some illegals who would behave like that.

Take down the Statue of Liberty
Maybe it's time we took down the Statue of Liberty--she seems so out of place in a time of xenophobia holding her torch high as a symbol of hope for those yearning to be free. That seems like such sentimental liberal twaddle in these tense times as we look for Al Queda terrorists hiding under the bed.

Ted Kennedy wasn't the only one supporting the immigration, er, amnesty bill. Last Chance John McVain cowrote the bill (he can kiss getting the keys to the White House good bye) and Dubya was prepared to sign it into law. Well,that's dead and buried and no one has a clue as to what to do next.

C'mon, Mr. Greenberg!
I applaud your mother's strength, courage and intelligence. But with today's illegals, and your mother's generation of immigrants, your analogy is very flawed, if even legitimate.

My ancestors legally came from Scotland and Ireland, but for years they had to live a hand-to-mouth existence until they gained a sound footing. That effort took about 2 generations, and none ever served prison or jail time. Our neighbors were the same.

Today, there isn't a member of my family, to include extended, that would even consider taking a dollar of welfare or to live off the labor of another. We'd go hungry first, and some of our numbers did.

Most of us served in branches of the military since the civil war.

The above is not remotely true of the illegals. The majority of them don't have to assimilate because to insist they do, one is called "racist" by he MSM, and the kids in charge of academe. Besides, the "multi-culti" fad is still strong.

It doesn't bother illegals in the least to take from Americans to pay for their keep. And they have stated their case as such through their handlers; they won't assimilate -- ever. Did your mother do that?

Now add the unrestrained, blatant, and violent crime they bring. That discussion is for another time.

It's a LIE!
Hal Donahue

"Unless the stats have changed dramatically the biggest collectors of welfare and users of social welfare programs are white males living in rural areas"

your "stats" are WRONG! It's NOT WHITE MALES!
Talk about racism. You are a bitter ill informed person with an axe to grind.

Betty and Don
Thank you both for your outstanding comments and truthful statements and most of all for your patriotism.

I had a grandmamá from kaiser's Germany. She taught school here for years, after, of course learning the kings English spoken in this the U.S.A., and she was from a noble family in Prussia. Talk about pride.

My other grandmother was born here of two Irish immigrants, and talk about proud, that slight woman would switch your little legs just for maybe back talking.

Yes, you and I know why we care about this country. The reasons are too many to count or even remember.

Semper Fi.. Don..

Hal, the bigot
Only racists harp on racism.

So you spent a few years in other countries.??. Did you stay there.??. Was it ever your intention to stay and live, because when it is, it is normal, unless you are too old to learn, to absorb the history, customs and language of the new MOTHER country, isn't it.??. It damm well better be. You can recall with some fond memories the old country. That is normal, but you also adhere, nay cleave, to the new country.

Since I have spent far more time out of the U.S.A. than you and 99% of those on this thread, and since I speak, read and write more than just English, and since I know the history of a number of countries better than 90% of their inhabitants, I will speak with some authority.

Get off the race issue. It may be the case for some, but they soon show their colors, and the bunch of us here at TH are not racists. We are America first, and the rest can lump it.

I don't normally answer people who are here just to screw with the rest of us. I am making this a one time exception.

Illegal Immigrants
Illegal is illegal is illegal.
Sentiment about one's mother is understandable, but has nothing to do with logic or reason.
The Federal government has no credibility with me about enforcing the law. To be trusted a person or an institution has to show itself trustworthy.
When has the government been good at planning the economy? When has any government been good at it?
The bill was complicated beyond use. The idea that a background check could be done in 24 hours was obviously impossible and meant that no background check would be done or was even planned to be done.
The Democrats wanted more poor and ignorant people for their votes and some Republicans wanted them for the cheap labor. A pox on both of them.
I was disappointed in Paul Greenberg.

Paul writes!
"Far from allowing too much immigration, this bill wouldn't allow enough."

I say BS! Anyone without blinders would admit that it was never about enforcement. The bill was entirely about amnesty wrapped in tough language about enforcement to gain the support of stupid people like you!

He further writes:

"I'm all for the wonderful mosaic of cultures in this country - social, religious, linguistic, culinary and every other kind in this country of countries. Each contributes something to the way we all see things, think about things."

More BS when you consider that we are talking about 12 - 20 million Mexicans already here, (20 is probably closer to reality), that once legalized will be entitled to bring the entire family tree to join them. That would change the entire demographics of this nation to the extent that they would become the majority.

I'd say we are at that point where the mosaic that Paul is so enamored with, will cease to exist, if we don't take steps to level the playing field. If we so desperately need millions of uneducated, low-skilled workers, then do it legally. As far as the point system, it sounds like a good idea to me. If we need chicken pluckers or computer programmers, the government can decided how many and allow them to come to this country in an legal orderly fashion.

It's not an issue of racism! It is an issue of fairness! Fairness to the people that were born in this once great nation and fairness to those who come here legally. Either we are a nation of laws or we're not!

I for one gave four years of my life to this country and have worked hard every day since. I put myself through school on the GI Bill, while I worked a full time job to support my family. Even now, I support a disabled family member, providing them with a place to live on their own. I do this without benefit of any tax deduction. I can't even get a break on the property taxes, though my uncle is disabled and 67 years old!

So, I am a little pi$$ed off at the effort of our government to start dividing my little piece of the pie, that I have worked so hard for and have shared and continue to share so generously with others! They allow people to sneak into our country and feed at the public trough that we work so hard to sustain.

Consider this, my wife recently had surgery, that cost me $5,000 out of pocket, even though I have medical insurance. Do you think I could really afford the $5,000? So, how is it fair that people can come here illegally and get for free what I have to pay for?

The list of inequities are long and well known to the people that read and post on the TH forum. Again, it is about fairness.

dce5mc
Sgt, USMC
1971-75


Greenberg's "Me, Ma and Ben Franklin"
Mr. Greenberg does not address the fact that many of the illegals do not want citizenship - they consider themselves Mexicans and believe (or are told by the Latino legislators in our Government) that the United States stole California, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico from Mexico and that they are going to take it back by sheer numbers. And letting the 12 to 20 million here already and not stopping any more from entering will only make that arrogant statement a fact. Nor does he take into consideration the billions of dollars illegal immigrants cost the American taxpayers nor the erosion they create to our education, Healthcare, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, subsidized housing and food stamp systems, among the many others they fraudulently apply for and are awarded (it just isn't conducive to quelling the desire of so many of them to enter illegally when we reward them rather than punish them).

Also, when my mother and her sister came here from Germany in 1925, they had to have a firm job offer in hand as well as $100. cash each. They was employed as maids and their employer did not allow them to speak any German in her home - not even to each other or to their Aunt, who was a governess for the family. As a result they became fluent in English within a year or so. Even in hard times they were too proud to ask for any help - they just worked another job if they could find one. I have never considered myself a hyphenated nationality, simply American of German descent. And I will never vote for amnesty for those who came here illegally and then arrogantly disrupt whole sections of cities marching demanding rights to which they are not entitled and carrying signs in Spanish and waving Mexican or other Latin American flags. They depress the wages and make it impossible for tax-paying either entry level or uneducated Americans to accept those same wages and still be able to live here above poverty level, AND PAY TAXES WHICH OUR UNFAIR GOVENMENT USES TO SUPPORT THE ARROGANT ILLEGALS. A great majority of these illegals are paid cash so that they avoid paying taxes. They vote fraudulently, yet our government refuses to require proof of citizenship at the polls. Although many want to learn English and BE Americans, there are simply many more who are not the least bit interested in anything other than sending money home to Mexico and in overpopulating America with Mexicans so that they can take back the land that we "STOLE" from them.

Not Racism
Hal D. takes the easy way. The liberal way. Just call your opponents "rascist", and be done with them. Hal, I have read these pages with interest for weeks, and find that most posts are pretty darn intellectually honest. Except for yours, that is.

"Racism?
Come now! My ancestors were brought to this country as slave labor to build the railroads. Then we were excluded from owning property or businesses. These laws existed on the books in CA even into the 1960s! Did we complain? NO! We just rolled up our sleeves, worked hard at both careers and education, and became part of the American success story.

What we DIDN'T look for was a hand out...we didn't riot in the streets, we didn't back Affirmative Action, and we spoke English at home. We did so out of respect for the majority of people who live here, and of which we are now a part of.

Mr. Donahue, please be a bit more circumspect when other repsondents simply want to see our borders, like those of any other nation on earth, legally respected. I'm sure your own Irish forebears, fleeing English persecution during the potato famine they (the British) helped create, would wholeheartedly agree.

T.R. said it back in 1901: "I have no patience for "hyphenated Americans." I am an American of Chinese ancestry, not a "Chinese-American." There is a huge difference, and rather than trying to carve out little politically-correct, culturally/ethnically/sexually communities that we have to write separate laws for, why can't we simply respect the ones we have?

There's my .02. Happy Fourth, everyone!

Will to enforce
I do not believe the problem is with the current laws. I do believe the problem is with the will to enforce.

It has gotten so bad in California that every Walmart, every Home Depot, now has groups of illegals hanging out in the parking lots looking for pick-up jobs.

A law that is not enforced is no law at all. The illegals have been in plain sight picking strawberries for the last 50 years in California.

The sad part of it is our financial priority. Remember the snipers in Washington DC area? One of them had been picked up by border patrol and released because the officer in charge said they couldn't afford to pay for the plane ticket to get him out of the country.

We have been unwilling to enforce the immigration laws that have been on the books for the last 50 years. Changing the immigration law, as was done in the 1980s has had no good effect.

Without enforcement, laws don't matter.

who are the illegals?
Not all illegals are starry eyed, downtrodden Mexican laborers seeking to become Americans citizens. In my town there are plenty of illegals from many countries who come here and learn pretty fast how to use our generous system to their advantage. Curiously, they DO learn English, which helps them to learn faster how to do it.

Your "Ma" and her contemporaries would never have expected one penny more than what they earned themselves. What we are allowing today is a new generation of newcomers who think that America is not only paved in gold...the gold is free and they are entitled to it.

These facts are what helped kill the bill. Those who voted for it are just selling out to get a vote.

reply - to ALL immigrants
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

************************************************

I think this sums up my attitude quite well.
and it ISNT negotiable.


PG is a noob
The immigration thang is driven by money.
Immigrants come here for a better life which includes:
Streets that are actually paved.
Not having to use olive oil cans for roofing materials.
An environment where makers of defective products are held accountable. See: Punitive Fines. All that infrastructure (like building code enforcement) costs money which is taken out in the cost of doing business here.
"Doing the jobs Americans won't do." Bosh and nonsense. My Father was a migrant fruit picker.
"Booting them out would disrupt the economy." More Bosh, more Nonsense.
The companies who use illegal workers use them because they work for less. This artificially lowers the standard of a day's wage for a day's labor. If they used legal help stuff would cost more. Would business travelers sleep under bridges because a hundred dollar room now cost a hundred fifty? I think not. That cost would be transfered to the overall bottom line.
The economies of countries south of us are fueled by the money illegal immigrants send 'home' (telling phrase, that one).
I personally think that if you taxed the transfer of cash at a pernicious rate a lot of illegal immigration would dry up.
The whole NAFTA business was about providing wealth south of the border so they might enjoy life there instead of coming here and sending money 'home'. But the reality seems to be that countries south of here would rather export malcontents than have them stay, and being unsatisfied; change their own countries for the better.
Build a fence, and see if there isn't a revolution down there soon.

give me a break...
I saw a picture on television the other day, one of those grainy shots of an illegal who'd just climbed over the fence. Finally on American soil, exhausted, still peering about anxiously, but alive, hopeful, grateful, he stopped to cross himself. I thought of Ma."

Sorry, but I bet Ma's 'hope and gratitude' wasn't because she was about to buy fraudulent documents that allowed her to get food, medical care, birthing babies, driving cars et al for free while American citizens foot the bill.

I am SOO sick and tired of people comparing past immigrants to the millions (and sorry Hal, but most come from south of the border) who come today gleefully aware that they get a bag of goodies that even American citizens don't enjoy...we just enjoy PAYING for it.

Do y'all realize that at Parkland Hospital, the average American, even with good health insurance has to pay an average of $2-3,000 in hospital costs to have a baby? But if you're an illegal you get free neo-natal care, a car seat, medicine, not to mention your stay at the Parkland. Do NOT compare the immigrants of old, in order to come here had to have a sponsor, be HEALTHY...(even pink eye kept you at Ellis Island), and had to make it on their own without hard working American citizen feeding their children breakfast, lunch dinner, medicating them with 'free' (for them, not us) health care, food stamps, medicare...
Probably their biggest expense is paying for all the fake documents that they need in order to cheat the rest of us.

And Hal, baby...if you want to call me 'racist' then I get to call you 'stupid.'

Hidden Agenda
Donahue: You have so much hostility to those who disagree with you. What is your motivation? Do you have any financial stake in the flood of an illegal, uneducated, illiterate underclass? Do you stand to gain by the influx of unskilled illegal labor? Just asking.

Amnesty bill
The idea of the United States is embodied in her constitution and laws, fortified by a common language and acceptance of cultural history with its beliefs in certain ideals by all. My immigrant ancestors accepted this. They did not march about waving German flags or demand to be treated by German laws (as do many Muslims). In fact they accepted the American flag and several, including a great grandfather who never returned from the Civil war where he volunteered for the Union army because he opposed slavery. They did not march through the streets of Dallas, Austin and I assume other cities (I have children living in those two cities.) waving Mexican flags protesting our laws. If these new "immingrants" want integration into society, it appears to be integration into Mexican society. I can live without such invaders, which is what they are, invaders not immigrants. Bill D.

chiteng
and I ask what is your point? Really? As illegals all YOU had to do was turn them in as criminals they would have been deported. Did you?

Why should they assimulate? Really? I lived in Germany, Greece and other places I never assimulated. This country was built upon diversity and change

reply - Hal Donahue
Well to me, I dont care where the illegals are from. I dont like them breaking the law.

But I especially dont like the ones that enter
on a student visa, and never leave.

I was in college with several such 'immigrants'
and they made no secret that they didnt intend to EVER assimilate, AND 'if you cant hold onto it, move over' was their answer to me.

That was over 30 years ago. They are still here.

chiteng
On this site for the past two weeks it is latin. I have not heard a word about other illegals. Just review the past two weeks postings on Townhall. Clear racism

Banjo1
Unless the stats have changed dramatically the biggest collectors of welfare and users of social welfare programs are white males living in rural areas

reply - Hal Donahue
I didnt realize that 'illegal' was a 'race'?


Change
You know all this debate isn't about right/left or Demorcratic/Republican. It is about change. Do we stop change and accept inevitable stagnation and decay or do we accept risk and growth. This country usually leaned toward the later.

A mixed bag, Greenberg
Living in Arkansas, I read Mr. Greenberg with some regularity. He is mostly sound except on the subject of immigration. Sentimentality about his mother -- and who can blame it for that? -- clouds his normally reliabile judgment. He is a fully paid-up member of the Open Borders Society. Let 'em all in, Paul says, it'll work out somehow or other. Fact is, studies show Mexican immigrants going back four generations remain ill-educated and mired in poverty. Then there's the one that says there is a $19,000-plus annual deficit in tax returns vs. social services for each immigrant. Not to mention the $2.3 trillion (t) long-term hit on our Social Security system.

Deskjockey
"What has been this nations deconstruction is folks bringing in their own views of governance and imposing them on the founding father’s vision. We now have a Muslim in congress demanding to swear an oath on the Koran, we have the European Jew in congress that never saw a tax or redistribution plan they didn’t love, thinking they still are living in the great cultural Marxist center of Germany. We have my ancestors such as the Italian Pelosi and the Irish Murtha attacking the every fabric of this nation."

The founders would I almost certainly look at the above with glee and cheerful approval. Were your ancestors Tories?


One Good thing from the bill
It flushed out the racists. Look in your mirror. And before you start ranting at me know I cared less about the Bush bill

Paul proves the ills of immigration
Like Greenberg who’s ma came here from Europe, my ancestors came from Britain and Italy 25 years earlier. Greenberg as well as my family are a good reason why letting in immigrants has been the deconstruction of this nation and it founding principles.

Wanting to come here, being loyal, working hard, participating in the great experiment is great for the immigrant but has destroyed the fiber and fabric of the founder’s vision. Paul says, “I'm all for the wonderful mosaic of cultures in this country - social, religious, linguistic, culinary and every other kind in this country of countries. Each contributes something to the way we all see things, think about things. We learn from each other.”

It is this multiculturalism that has deconstructed our culture. We intentionally were not a country of countries.

John Jay founder and first Supreme Court Chief Justice writing in the Federalist Papers #85, "Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs..."

What has been this nations deconstruction is folks bringing in their own views of governance and imposing them on the founding father’s vision. We now have a Muslim in congress demanding to swear an oath on the Koran, we have the European Jew in congress that never saw a tax or redistribution plan they didn’t love, thinking they still are living in the great cultural Marxist center of Germany. We have my ancestors such as the Italian Pelosi and the Irish Murtha attacking the every fabric of this nation.

No Paul, AmeriKa didn’t need your Ma or mine either

Just do something
Just do something, even if its wrong. How could Greenberg be so stupid?

Our nation is being invaded by a nation that wants to capture our territory, and Greenburg pretends that its about WWII Europe. With idiots like him no wonder our nation is sliding downhill fast.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Laudable Goal - Mr Greenberg
It is fun being an idealist, you can say anything and get props for it. Your mental picture of the illegal finally standing on US soil is an example.

Until you realize, that he is here illegally.
That he bypassed the law of the country.

Your solution is no solution. You would allow people in just because they want in. If your mother arrived in Boston, I suspect she did it LEGALLY. That is the difference.

I have no sympathy for global overcrowding.
I blame the parents. If you cant feed your children, THEN DONT HAVE ANY.

Dont expect me, to sacrifice my nations future,
to salvage your short-sightedness.

The people who are actually citizens here have dreams also. They ALSO deserve respect.
Yet you trample their determination with your high sounding rhetoric.

In an empty world your idealism would be tolerable. The world ISNT empty. It is fraught with increasing peril.

Even now, watch the price of food on the shelves.
Soon people will be starving to provide energy
for cars. (of course that is a gross simplification) as arable land is converted into
alcohol producing land.

We need REAL solutions, not high sounding platitudes. Existing citizens FIRST.

Close the border, jail the employers, deport the illegals, stop the abuse of the H and L visa.

And do it quickly, before they have children in high-school.

what?
are you telling me that you and your "ma" believe that once an individual gains a"foothold" in the USA they should then be allowed privileged status in bringing to our shores EVERY member of their "family" is good policy, better than attempting to promote the true labor needs of our nation as the primary qualifier? BUNK.
As for Teddy K., he's blamed this nation for the deaths of his brothers since the 1960, and has been on a campaign to destroy this nation ever since, and he's managed a fair job of it with the assistance of his blind followers and dupes like Bush and McClown.
We once had what was refered to as the "quota system" of immigration; we took only so many from each country (and theoretically as balanced greater regions) of the globe. Sounds fair, right, but not to Teddy K. and he was instrumental in ending it; however, the real insanity surrounding Teddy K. and immigration is the fact the he practically single handedly wrote the surrent immigration laws of the USA which he now claims to be "broken" and inadequate! Gee, Teddy, the Founding Fathers legislated for effect over centuries, and you obviously couldn't handle a couple of decades, so WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD WE FOLLOW YOU DOWN ANOTHER immigration PRIMROSE PATH!

Allegiance to whom?
They were voting to uphold common sense, I hope. If we are able to clean the corruption out of the government and restore law and order the laws we have now shall suffice for years. If the new honest people need help we will pass the new laws they will need to work with.

It makes no sense passing laws for liars that only have handed out the amnesty parts of the laws and let the enforcement parts of the laws sit never tested!


Besides...

I’m getting a kick out of this article because I’m NOT an economist.

I can sort of see how a myopic economist may be able to see an increase in profits by snuffing the descendants of the founders of this country. That makes room for the criminals in business’s illegal labor. Not only can many of the illegal invaders be paid off in token wages but that also leaves the honest workers stiffed with the invaders taxes, medical and social services. It’s a pure genius way of eliminating any competition. They won’t be able to compete on that playing field. Every day more and more will go under.

The part that confuses me is I can see examples of some of the illegal aliens previous work. And… How will all of the crime that surrounds illegal immigration be helping you out when the honest people are forced to join in, in the lawlessness?




Failed amnesty bill
Surely Mr. Greenberg, you can't mean what your last paragraph says. Or am I not understanding? You certainly know that anything with Ted Kennedy's name on it is going to be awful for America. He and his cohorts are trying desperately to sink our great ship of freedom and they're too blind realize that they're standing on the deck. God help us.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.