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Wednesday, October 18, 2006
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
What ever happened to honor?
by Paul Greenberg
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"Of course I bear responsibility. My Lord, I'm secretary of defense. Write it down."

-Donald Rumsfeld at a news conference October 11, 2006

When did the phrase, "I take full responsibility," come to mean not taking any real responsibility at all?

Talk about a numerical tribute to American hypocrisy, Google up that phrase and you'll find some 212,000 references to it.

Dennis Hastert, speaker of the House, is only the latest to accept full responsibility for some outrage but only verbally. Evidence mounts that other high-ranking Republicans in the House or their staffers were aware of a colleague's suspicious e-mails to House pages.

All over the country, police and sheriff's deputies are sitting in dark little rooms monitoring the Internet for just the kind of messages this congressman was sending young people. But in his case nobody thought to call the cops. Instead it was all kept in-house, or rather in-House.

So far Mark Foley, he of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children, has been the only one to resign his office. But not without making excuses for his conduct - via his lawyer, of course. He's an alcoholic, he was molested as a child, etc. In their own way, his excuses are as repellent as his e-mails.

The Brits handle these things better, or at least used to. Remember John Profumo? He was the Cabinet minister who got caught in a sex scandal, and then did something really bad. He lied about it to his colleagues in the House of Commons. Not done, old boy. Bad form and all that. Especially for an officer and a gentleman, and John Profumo was an aristocrat to boot. Of Italian heritage, he was technically the 5th Baron Profumo of the Kingdom of Sardinia, though he never used the title.

Jack Profumo signed up for the Army on the outbreak of the war in 1939 (Northampton Yeomanry), and in 1940 became the youngest MP in the House of Commons when he was put up by the Tories in an unexpected by-election at Kettering. The 25-year-old Profumo would cast his first vote as one of the 30 Conservative members of the House who joined with Labor to bring down the Chamberlain government and open the way for Churchill and the British Empire's finest hour.

Mentioned in dispatches during the North African campaign, young Profumo landed in Normandy on D-Day with an armored brigade. Then, after serving on Field Marshal Alexander's staff in Italy, he was discharged as a brigadier and awarded an OBE (military). He would lose his seat in the Labor landslide of 1945, but return as MP for Stratford-on-Avon in 1951 and begin his smooth political rise. By 1960 he was secretary of state for war and member of the Privy Council.

Then came his fall, and it was a doozy.

In early 1963, he was accused of cavorting with Christine Keeler, tart extraordinaire. To add security risk to scandal, she also had a thing going with a Soviet naval attache, that is, spy.

At first MP Profumo tried to brazen his way out of it with a concocted story, the help of Tory colleagues, the full backing of Prime Minister Harold Macmillan, and a perfectly straight face. "There was no impropriety whatsoever in my acquaintanceship with Miss Keeler," Mr. Profumo announced in a great display of righteous indignation. In its time, that line was repeated by lovers of political irony the way "I never had sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky" is today.

With an investigation pending, the Rt. Hon. Mr. Profumo confessed the truth to his wife Valerie over lunch in Venice. Her reaction? "Oh, darling, we must go home as soon as we can and face up to it." They did. Not since Mrs. Alexander Hamilton supported her husband throughout that unfortunate business with Mrs. Reynolds has a loving spouse shown such grace under pressure.

Caught in his lie, John Profumo resigned his high office in disgrace, and the Macmillan government would fall soon thereafter. It was quite a crash.

The rising star had plummeted to earth. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Profumo showed up at Toynbee Hall, the London soup kitchen and settlement house, and volunteered for menial work. It took considerable persuasion, but he was finally talked into giving up his janitor's mop and heading a fund-raising drive for the charity. It was successful enough to keep Toynbee Hall afloat.

And for the next four decades, the 5th Baron Profumo would devote himself to helping the poor of London's East End.

Why would a man do such a thing, especially a man with a private fortune who could have gone off and lived a quiet life of luxury anywhere he chose?

It's as hard to imagine a political figure doing such a thing in these times as it is to explain why he would do it. Call it a sense of honor within - an understanding that there is no real acceptance of responsibility without making some personal sacrifice.

In 1975, John Profumo, OBE was advanced to CBE in recognition of his good works. As Valerie Profumo would later say of her husband, summing up in a few plain words what Sophocles was trying to tell us in all his Oedipus plays, "It isn't what happens to a man, it's what he does with it that matters."

John Profumo never complained, he never explained. He didn't write his memoirs to counter Christine Keeler's attempt to live the rest of her life off the Profumo Affair. He had nothing to say about the TV docudramas that, for dramatic effect, added a lot of fiction to the bad-enough facts. Through it all, the man just Went On.

At a dinner on her 70th birthday, Margaret Thatcher made a point of seating Mr. Profumo next to the Queen. "His has been a very good life," said Lady Thatcher, and who would dispute her? How strange: The Hon. Gentleman turned out to be an honorable gentleman.

On his death earlier this year, the Yorkshire Post would contrast "Mr. Profumo's 40-year silence with the nature of ministerial resignations witnessed in the modern era. Far from accepting responsibility, disgraced ministers, both Labor and Conservative, have sought to exploit their misjudgment for financial gain before, in some cases, resuming their political careers. This is why voters hold politicians in such low regard, and why there was much to commend in John Profumo's quiet dignity."

In this country, politicians may accept responsibility, too, but only in words. It's the political equivalent of confession without repentance. And certainly without atonement. That is, worthless.

Donald Rumsfeld is still secretary of defense long after Abu Ghraib and a whole tragic chain of miscalculations both strategic and tactical - even though by now nothing might honor his office so well as his leaving it.

Dennis Hastert is still speaker of the House after the Foley scandal and continuing disgrace. (More is surely to come.) At this point it's not clear which is worse - that the speaker knew what was happening on his watch or only should have known. He's now offered to fire any staffers responsible for not blowing the whistle on the errant congressman when somebody should have, but he isn't about to give up the speakership himself.

There's a principle in the military: A commander is responsible for whatever his unit does or fails to do. It's a matter of honor. What a pity the principle has never caught on among politicians. Which helps explain why our military is generally more respected than our political class.

Amid all the claims - but only claims - of responsibility in this unfolding scandal, this much becomes clear: An American political party hasn't so richly deserved to lose control of the House of Representatives since, well, the Democrats in 1994.

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Why is this Lefty's column on this site?
Greenberg. Your posit is that stepping up and taking responsibility isn't enough? Would you prefer he fall on his sword? Swallow it? Commit Seppukku?

This absurd column follows your other idiocy of a couple of days ago.

Look, loser, he stepped up to the plate. That's what counts. Why don't you ask all the Lefties why they don't know how to do the same?

In the meantime, get bent.

To my fellow conservatives
If you agree with me, vote on this column in the space provided above. I rarely if ever do it, but I did this time; one dinky star.

I wish it was that easy, Brian
I have little evidence that Greenberg is anything less than a reasoned, reliable columnist. The fact that he singles out two Reps alarms me, but I do not yet suspect his motives. These two might just be timely examples or, he may be already numbed to its affect on Dems.

He makes a great point about honor. Unfortunately his requirements for honor would result in a glut of puplic service workers if it were applied to members of congress. Can you imagine the resignations over broken campaign promises alone?

I cannot wait to see the postings by the libs who lurk these pages. Any bets on them acknowledging examples in their own party (Kennedys, Studds, Jefferson, Frank, Clinton, Berger, and all the representatives who now parse their votes to support the Iraq war)? Oops, I forgot that they never took responsibility.


Brian-My Hero
Brian, I couldn't sleep tonight - belive it or not it was because of the cowardice of the sports writing fraternity because not one of them came to the defense of Fox announcer Steve Lyons, who was fired for politically correct reasons over nearly innocent remarks during a baseball broadcast. The writers and commentators are quick to hang any player who in their brave attempts to get recognition use inuendo to convict players of using steriods, but when one of their own is unfairly attacked and fired, not one of them comes to his defense. In that spirit, I commend you for taking Mr. Greenberg to task for his cowardly attacks on Mr. Hastert, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and the whole Republican Party in a silly attempt to appear indignant over the silly Foley incident. I hereby flag the Greenberg column as "offensive". Thank you for showing leadership. Talk about rats deserting the sinking ship!

acceptreality
Yes, he makes a great point about honor but something strikes me as being a bit too selective in his target.

If the coming election is going to be decided on the basis of which party is more responsible for devaluing honor in public office, I'd expect a Republican landslide.

Brian
I voted. One star. I identified Greenberg months ago as a leftie.

I guess town Hall is a "fair and balanced" site. I am just uneasy about the way previously conservative columnists and TV talking heads are recently sounding disturbingly leftist.

That includes people on Fox News. Come to think of it why hasn't Fox interviewed Phyllis Schlaffly? Not a mumbling word about the "Highway".

???????

Conservative icons suddenly coming off like leftists? Am I paranoid? Why does the term "cognitive disonence" keep popping into my mind?

Well, Skip,
Well, Skip, perhaps the reason you're thinking "cognitive disonence" (and that's dissonance, btw) is that you're experiencing it? After all, I've yet to see any legitimate complaint in all this Greenberg-bashing.

I have seen lots of the common attitude, "Well, the other side does it, too! And worse! So if you criticize one of US for it then you must be one of THEM!"

Now here's the real kicker: even if you're right, you're wrong. Whether he's left, right, up, down or blowin' in the wind, is his point true or false? Pious speeches and little guy sacrifices mean nothing except business as usual, and they leave a really bad taste in your mouth.

That was his point: is he right or wrong?



TALK ABOUT PEOPLE
Still remaining in their job. Paul, I suggest you keep an eye on your key board. Your latest rant is approx. 30 paragraphs long with only the last 4 to 5 talking about something relevant to anything as recent as the past 50 years. However, Rumsfeld does need to go.

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

Wake up guys?
Get over the left right thinkng in this case. It doesn't matter which historical event is used to describe an issue, it is the theme, not the direction. Get it.

Mark Foley and Company
Politics is about perceived interests. We who are empty-pated idealists seem to continue to hope that interest tends toward the public rather than the private. But the only thing that *idealist* and *realist* have in common is a happy assonance. I spray out my own invective in my own little blogicle,

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/10/mark-foley-and-company.html

and need not repeat it here. The present point is to chime in with my own plaintive little peep for integrity and honor in the public sphere. We can't do much about what is private, and it's not really our business, as public citizens. Private morality -- if there be such a thing -- is an antebellum concept. Which bellum? Well, most likely Vietnam. But we still to have some claim on public conduct, don't we?

*Si vis pacem, para bellum,* per Vegetius. "If you want peace, prepare for war." And my update: If you want public integrity, prepare prisons.


J

What Ever Happened to Honor?
Whatever happened, indeed? Seems that you suddenly overlook the fact that the Democrats trump the Republicans on lack of honor and morals. I used to like your columns, but now you sound almost like the Clintons, just before an election. Who got to you?

Where does the buck stop?
Profumo's repentence and honor is commendable. But the fact is, HE did what he did and tried to make amnends to his concience. Where does the buck truely stop. To put Abu Ghraib done by a few reserve enlistees at Rumsfeld's feet is truely a stretch, and if the comander resigned after every skirmish lost there would be few commanders remaining, all untested in battle. Relative to Hastert, at the moment it would appear (hard evidence presented)that Foley was guilty only of what liberals advocate as the new way. Maybe he should have put taps on Foley's phone and e-mail, but wouldn't that have gotten the ACLU in a tissy and Nancy P into a hissy fit. If you want a parallel to Profumo, go after Teddy Kennedy. Now there is a case of lying, covering up, and then ignoring the deed without accepting any blame/punishment/etc. But perhaps Paul Greenberg is so enamored with Teddy's politics he is beyond reproach.

Vote them all out
"I have seen lots of the common attitude, "Well, the other side does it, too! And worse! So if you criticize one of US for it then you must be one of THEM!"

Now here's the real kicker: even if you're right, you're wrong. Whether he's left, right, up, down or blowin' in the wind, is his point true or false? Pious speeches and little guy sacrifices mean nothing except business as usual, and they leave a really bad taste in your mouth.

That was his point: is he right or wrong?"

Skip is correct. There is a complete lack of responsibility and duty with this Congress and executive government (ok I'll throw in the Supreme Court). It flows to both sides.

Why is Rumsfield still there?
Why is Foley still there?
Why is Reid still there?
Why are any of them still there?

To say the author is only noting Republicans is correct. However, there is more than enough malfeasance on both parties.

Look at my own state's governor election (Texas). We have a governor who sold out Texas to a Spanish company for this new interstate corridor (who provided campaign contributions to him), a democratic candidate who's biggest achievement is being consistent (consistently losing), an independnent who changes names/positions/parties on an annual basis, and comedian who never met a joint he didn't like.

Vote the scum out.

Real Honor
There can never be honor without God. Since God is perfect, He can be honored. As we are conformed to His image, we honor Him. When we seek for ourselves, we “honor” ourselves and just dress up in hypocrisy our pragmatic greed.

There was a time when Christian politicians honored God with their lives. However, like the rest of us, they started to think of their honor as something separate from God. It became a useful cloak of self-righteousness. Without God, honor is just a mockery. Sinful man can never sustain himself apart from God to keep the illusion going for very long.

As a people who have rejected God, we are faced with a dilemma. Our repeated scandals are beginning to show that there is no honor without God. We have to face three options.

1. Admit that honor is unimportant (The Democratic option)
2. Claim honor is important and just live with the scandals (The Republican option)
3. Return to God and true honor for Him who is worthy

Paul doesn’t really understand honor. What he is really upset about is that no one is punished for doing things that are wrong. He says he is upset with the Republicans because of their useless claim of responsibility without actually doing anything.

Paul, if you really want fairness, why not demand the death penalty for treason for the traitors at the New York Times who published government secrets? Is it only Republicans who are guilty of having no honor?

Paul, if you understand sin you understand that none of us have any honor in ourselves. Some are puffed up with pride at having less sin that someone else (“I’ve never killed anyone” is a good example). However, Jesus dispelled such false self-honor by saying that if anyone has been angry, he has already committed murder in his heart.

Paul, don’t just think about the evil in the hearts of your enemies. Think about the evil in your own heart. The answer to the frequently asked question, “Why does God allow evil?”, is that if God didn’t allow evil, we would all be killed. This is why Jesus is important. Not because He was a great teacher, but because his death paid the price for all of our sins. We can start to approach real honor as we trust in what He did for us.

No one expects honor
from a democrat. The aforementioned Studds, Frank, et al are proof of that. The dems have a different standard applied to republicans than they apply to themselves. It would not be reprehensible for a gay democrat to send IM's or e-mails to a page, or to dance the horizontal hokey-pokey with a page in the back of his Cadillac Escalade. And don't forget that a single democrat who falls doesn't taint the whole democratic party, but a republican brings shame and disgrace on each member of the republican party in similar, though less egregious, circumstances.

I think we have nailed Dems
on the honor thing pretty convincingly. I have not seen any of them posting to this article and I suggest they have gotten the message about treading in the honor/morals swamp.

Let us not get sanctimonious or pious about our relative superiority in this regard. We have lots of work to do if we are to truly be seen as the 'standard'.

I am heartened by the collective outrage we true Cons display when our bad apples appear. We usually condemn them and demand their resignations when warranted (as an Illinois resident I cannot recall a single Rep that expressed the least defense of Gov. Geo. Ryan's corruption).

PS. Greenberg was a loud and vocal detester of Bubba and frau. He routinely exposed their sordid past and criminal present during the 90s.

Honor?
There is little left. It is all about greed. I do not care what names you put in the article or what incident you put in the article, there is little left of honor, respect, or honesty.

This election time witch hunt is sad. We have a crisis in the middle east, a crisis in North Korea, a crisis in foreign trade, an immigration crisis, a crisis in medicare and social security, a power crisis, a crisis of corporate corruption, a crisis in eduction and little to no progress on any of these. Pick a name of a senator or administration official and replace them in the above article and put any one of these larger issues in for the scandle and you have the real picture of our leadership. All I hear is, I tried, I did what I could but, or I was busy with another issue, or it not my fault ....

We better get some true leadership and fast.


I disagree
I have to disagree with his call for Rumsfeld to resign due to "a whole tragic chain of miscalculations both strategic and tactical" (ignoring the Abu Graib jab). If military failure required resignation we would have lost the services of MacArthur immeiately following the fall of the Phillipines, the British would have sacked Montgomery immediately following the failure of market garden, and deGaul would have never realy commanded, as he did suffer setbacks during his brief command prior to the fall of France.

And, since Abu Graib was mentioned, I should point out that if we judge commanders on PR success or failure, then Patton would never have served in Europe, as he would have been handed his papers after striking an enlisted man.(For that matter MacArthur was criticized for not visiting the front during the Phillipines defense, so he was probably a PR disaster as well...)

It is funny how, holding our commanders to absurd standards of success, we actually see more failure.

correcting myself
DeGaulle. Must have been reading too much latin, dropped the extra "le"

Modernone
The glass is not half empty, so do not fall into that Dem trap, where everything is a crisis. Certainly we have challenges that our representatives are too cowardly to address in the early stages. When the public recognizes the scope of the threat they will demand leaders who respond effectively (ala terrorism). That is why I am sanguine about Rep prospects in this election. I am less confident that they will get the message though. Most likely an election victory will make them think that we voters have forgiven their abandonment of core principles and leadership.

Dollars Push Issues
The voters, vote, don't amount to a hill of beans. The real focus is on the almighty dollar. I love you, only if it pays, otherwise get out of my face. This is a praise the wealth society, any issue must always come up very short, unless that grand {money motivated} issue is at front and center. May God help us all. Amen!!!!

NRA lifer
I hope when you wrote "to Jimmy Karter's azz-kicking of dictator's" you meant "Jimmy Carter's azz-KISSING of dictators", as I sure don't recall much kicking on his part (excepting for the killer bunny, of course).

NRAlifer
Your site is excellent! Thank you.

Debating liberals is alot like herding cats....a frustrating exercise in futility.
There was a time years ago that I relished the idea of talking to them or debating them, yes and even arguing with them, but these days it is pointless and a waste of time in my opinion.

Liberals, Democrats, Socialists? What's the difference? They all speak with one voice and read from the same socialist manifesto. They are morally decrepit and without honor.

And I still think the left, right, liberal or conservative tags we put on people is just wrong. It's a European thing and utterly useless in this country.

We have Americans and Socialists here.

While the Democrats are busy with their deceit and moronic trickery, doing everything they can to tear down God based morality here, the Republicans are busy shooting themselves in the foot at at an alarming rate.
Is it any wonder Americans are apathetic to politics?

Not one Democrat has a viable plan for the war on terror or the security of this nation. The ONLY thing they can do is criticize everything Republican or conservative. It is ALL they do.

The lines have been drawn for sometime now. A Democrat majority in the House and the Senate is just one more step into the moral void that pervades our society.

Will the real America stand up and fight back? Or will we just sink into the Socialist quagmire that the Democrats have handed us?

According to Democrats the Republicans in general and conservatives in particular have divided the nation. Reality is the Democrats have done more to divide us and are actively seeking our destruction from within. It is nothing short of treason.

They won't be happy until we are all singing the praises of Karl Marx and marching in lock-step to the socialist agenda.

As for me, my family, and circle of friends, we will fight the liberal take over with everything we have.

Inner vessel
Paul is right.

If you love what the republican party stands for you'll quit glossing over debacles like the Mark Foley scandal and start expecting a higher code of conduct from our own. It's time to take a better look at our own candidates at the primary level where the seeds of these kinds of embarrasment lie. It time to show our own canditates that we'll hang them out to dry ourselves if they engage in the kind of activities Foley regularly enjoyed.

Instead the message we send to our own is that we expect our candidates to live to the same standards as the former democratic president. That's the wrong message. That's not good enough for us.

And Harry Reid,
Stubbs, Kennedy, etc go on and on and on.

Sam T
You are right, and the only poster here I fully agree with.

It is your scandal and your responsiblity to resign or be fired if YOU did something, knew something evil was happening and looked away, ordered something evil, or did not take appropriate steps when the evil came to light.

Miscalculations and mistakes are not evil even if they result in disaster. If they were, no one would be innocent.

In Abu Ghraib, there is no evidence that this was done by any but those charged. If that evidence is suppressed, the supressors should be charged. Rumsfield did the right thing there by prosecuting the offenders. Allegations but nothing further has been revealed to prove anything else.

The Foley case is again, appropriate. The offender is gone. There is no evidence of anything but talking dirty. And in e-mails available to anyone before this came to light, not even dirty, just kind of odd. Foley would have been wrong to do much based on the evidence that was available. Once the evidence came to light, he acted appropriately.

If this guilt by association is to hold, Pelosi and co need to quit because of the $100K in the fridge. Reid must quit, but so should Bieden, wet Teddy, and Lurch due to that land deal.

Times have changed
Now instead of anyone taking responsibility they consult their spin doctor. The day after the Bay of Pigs debacle President Kennedy took full responsibility even though the operation had been planned under the previous administration. He adhered to the principle that the buck stops in the oval office but that was before the day of the spin doctors who have the knack of turning black into white or white into black and they can probably turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

BrianR
"Why is this Lefty's column on this site?"

Bullying, impolite. Downright rude. And that is just to begin with.

"Greenberg. Your posit is that stepping up and taking responsibility isn't enough? Would you prefer he fall on his sword? Swallow it? Commit Seppukku?"

No. Mr Greenberg is tired of people "taking responsibility" with their words, but NOT in FACT. He is as sick of double talk as I am.

This absurd column follows your other idiocy of a couple of days ago.

This column was not "absurd." If Mr Greenberg cannot discuss the meaning of "honor" in a "conservative" environment, then there is something wrong with THAT environment, not with Mr. Greenberg.

"Look, loser, he stepped up to the plate. That's what counts. Why don't you ask all the Lefties why they don't know how to do the same?"

I repeat. Bullying, impolite. Downright rude. And that is just to begin with.

The point is that he DIDNT "step" ANYwhere. He just "said." BIG difference.

In the meantime, get bent.

I repeat: Bullying, impolite. Downright rude. And that is just to begin with.


BrianR
"To my fellow conservatives
If you agree with me, vote on this column in the space provided above. I rarely if ever do it, but I did this time; one dinky star."

This is a disgusting thing to do. I have never "voted" on a column either, but I gave this FIVE stars. Not just because it merited it, but to offset this incredible offensive suggestion. "Group-think," anyone??

I am Conservative in EVERY sense of the word. Except one. I am NOT your "fellow" Conservative.

Mr Greenberg's column shows him to be a man of honor. His words convey it. YOUR words, Sir, convey something different.

BrianR was right
Acceptreality: "I cannot wait to see the postings by the libs who lurk these pages."

Brian was right. Why cite just two Repubs? We could draw in Clinton, Jim Wright, and a host of others from both sides. I guess he's got sex scandal on the brain. There's plenty of corruption to go around.

His point though, Brian, was that it's easy to _say_ you accept responsibility. Showing it is a whole different matter. He's saying Profumo had the good graces to resign (at his wife's instigation apparently) once caught, as did Nixon and Foley. Clinton did not, nor have a host of others. I think what gets his goat is being in a scandal then making a profit from it.

To fiddler
This one doesn't expect honor from a poltiician, except maybe at the local level, and even that is iffy.

Hey Grumpy
Thanks for pointing out my error in spelling. As to whether I am experiencing cognitive disonnance or not, my point is that we may ALL may be experiencing it.


Did you read any of Greenberg's previous columns? Have you noticed the way Fred Barnes on Fox has was beating the drums for amnesty? Now he and Mort Kondrake are discussing how many seats the Democrats will take in November. These guys are big on polls, but polls can be used as opinion makers. I think that is pretty well understood.


I remember Tony Snow claiming that the people who were complaining about our pourous borders were complaining because they were anti-Mexican. He played a clip of a truck driver who was venting his frustration at being forced to keep his vehicles in line with safety regulations, while he saw Mexican trucks that were obviously unsafe not being cited.


That driver had a pronounced Southern drawl. I belive that Snow chose that clip in order to imply that this man might well be a Southern bigot. I e mailed Snow and told him what a cheap shot he took.


Later,he was interviewing Charles Krautmammer, and Tony Snow made that same assertion about the racism of the people who were angry about the invasion from Mexico. Almost in passing Krauthammer agreed.


Here were two pundits who were generally accepted as being conservative, and they were expressing an opinion that I would have expected from a leftist. That looked like cognitive disonnance to me.


Unfortunately you may be entirely correct when you say that there will be business as usual, no matter what any of us do. I attended a meeting last night of the local Republican Central Committee. There was extreme frustration and anger expressed about what Republicans have been doing in Washington.


People believe that the Republican Party, at least on the national level, has largely abandoned its base, especially its fundamentalist Christian base. Several of us agreed that we will vote Republican no matter what. The idea of voting for a Democrat is unthinkable.


I know that I will be glad when this election has come and gone. Right now I am going to concentrate on getting up the mountain with my '06 next weekend. Sunday is opening day. It takes a lot more effort these days, but it is always calming to get up top and look God's work.

Rumsfeld and the Sword
I am waiting for one of the people critical of Rumsfeld to lay out their plan for winning. The people that are causing the problems in Iraq are not easily identified. What would you have him do - kill them all and sort them out later? It is obvious to me that his strategy is to put the Iraqis in the position of enforcers of their own laws - policing the streets to end the sectarian violence. Would you have our own people put in that place? This is a difficult war and Rumsfeld has accepted responsiility for the plan that he has in place - but I am not ready to say that he has failed. I believe that his course is the only course other than letting the place fall into total chaos - or turning it into a Lake of Glass!

Paul Greenberg, Do The Honorable Thing!
___ Inasmuch as there have been two columns in which you reach illogical conclusions about honorable and talented conservatives (Ann Coulter, Denny Hastert and Don Rumsfield) and attempt to besmirch their reputations with their admirers

___ PLEASE DO THE HONORABLE THING and find another venue for your ad hominem attacks (you'll be so much more comfortable without the patriotic American eagle disguise)... or... resume your Alzheimer's medications... or... fall on your pen (Show Don and Denny how it's done!).

It's telling
who is agreeing with Mr. Greenberg's argument and who is disagreeing. It would seem that those who are agreeing are confirming BrianR's suspicions.

JimmyJoe, you may not like his delivery, but at least there is no doubt he is being honest. I wish I could say the same for Mr. Greenberg.

Ignorant and repulsive posts
I don't think I've ever read anything as ignorant and repulsive as NRAlifer's and BrianR's posts. How far from true patriotic American ideology can people get? How scary that those with such distorted and uninformed opinions will be voting in November. Please do not lump me in with you as a "fellow" conservative; you embarrass me and all reasonable conservatives (i.e. those who are able to open their minds occasionally to let in some fresh air.) What you are after is a dictatorship, not a democratic republic in which all elected leaders (of whatever party) are held to accountability for their actions). By the way, those who list the "bad apples" in one party, should always note that the list will be as long on the other side. It's the nature of the beast.

Bipsy Quee
I am neither "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with Mr. Greenberg's argument. How can you KNOW that Mr. Greenberg is being not being "honest" while BrianR is?

That isnt something you can "know." My assumption is that both are being honest.

My difficulty is a very simple one. Instead of actually taking issue with what he SAID, BrianR goes into a childis rant, resorting to namecalling, bullying, and insult. That is NO legitimate response to an argument of any kind.

If he disagrees with Mr. Greenberg's conclusions, why not simply point out WHERE he disagrees, and WHY Mr. Greenberg's analysis is incorrect.

I am not acquainted with either gentlemen, though I have read some of Mr. Greenberg's columns in the past, which indicate he is a decent, honorable and thoughtful man. Whether he is right or wrong on this occasion is beside the point.

Bipsy Quee
In fact, the constant pointing out of Democrat "moral errors" on THIS site DOES get repetitive. Singing to the gallery and all that.

Most of us vote Republican, and so there is something to be said for "taking the beam out of our eyes" too. We do not have a monopoly on "virtue" - a point glaringly obvious by some of the posts which constantly appear here.

As to Mr Greenberg's conclusions on Mr. Rumsfield. Surely in a democratic society, Mr. Rumsfield, like the President, is a servant of the people. Answerable to them.

I am no expert on military affairs, so I withhold judgement. But if some people have issues with the conduct of the war, that should not be dismissed out of hand.

uwcharlie: Few Questions
In that spirit, I commend you for taking Mr. Greenberg to task for his cowardly attacks on Mr. Hastert, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and the whole Republican Party in a silly attempt to appear indignant over the silly Foley incident. I hereby flag the Greenberg column as "offensive". Thank you for showing leadership. Talk about rats deserting the sinking ship!

1. Why do you assume his attacks are "cowardly"?
2. Oh. I see. No further questions.

If you can refer to the "Foley incident" as "silly," enough said.


Skip
"I voted. One star. I identified Greenberg months ago as a leftie."

How astute you are. And what a sheep. Baaa.

hntr admin
"Paul, I suggest you keep an eye on your key board. Your latest rant is approx. 30 paragraphs long with only the last 4 to 5 talking about something relevant to anything as recent as the past 50 years. However, Rumsfeld does need to go."

Ok. I dont see how you describe Mr. Greenberg's column as a "rant," particularly as you seem to actually agree with him. He is pointing out the obvious fact that people say ONE thing about accepting "responsibility" while their ACTIONS indicate otherwise.

As for his column being "relevant", that's like saying Bill Bennett's columns on mid-nineteenth century history are not relevant. I thought he told a good story.


timf
"Paul doesn’t really understand honor."

"Judge not and you shall not be judged" etc... I'm sure you know where to find it. My question to you is: Who are YOU to judge Paul?

"What he is really upset about is that no one is punished for doing things that are wrong."

So now you can read his mind? I got the impression that he is somewhat upset about people SAYING one thing and DOING another. From what he actually WROTE.

Paul, if you really want fairness, why not demand the death penalty for treason for the traitors at the New York Times who published government secrets?

He didnt demand "fairness." Merely that somewhere along the way, that people mean what they say.

"Is it only Republicans who are guilty of having no honor?"

No. Nor did he say/imply or in any way indicate that this is his position. But it isnt only Democrats who have no honor, which IS his apparent position.

Finally, I dont think Mr. Greenberg actually needs a sermon from you on "honor." I say this with respect,because you are undoubtedly sincere in your religious belief. But I think your sermon - misplaced, to say the least.

I cannot believe we Reps are feuding
over an opinion column. I personally think Greenberg is off on a tangent (or he got writer's block just before the print deadline. Let's not get exercised over his opinion. We see much worse every day.

If Rep politicians were to act as honorly as Profumo did 40 years ago they would be sitting ducks for every scandal that the Dems could manufacture. Considering their 'all is fair' tactics, Dems could easily decimate Rep leadership without breaking a sweat. Profumo-ing would become the new Borking.

solo
"There was a time years ago that I relished the idea of talking to them or debating them, yes and even arguing with them, but these days it is pointless and a waste of time in my opinion."

It is. And you want to know why?

"Liberals, Democrats, Socialists? What's the difference? They all speak with one voice and read from the same socialist manifesto. They are morally decrepit and without honor."

Because this is how you set yourself up in judgement of them.

On a point of logic?

If there is ONE Liberal OR Democrat OR Socialist out there, who DOESNT speak with the "same voice" as all the others, this statement is a lie.

If there is ONE Liberal OR Democrat OR Socialist out there, who isNT "morally decrepit," and who HAS "honor" this statement is a lie.

Why? Because you said "ALL." You cannot make such a statement, because to back it up, you would need to know EVERY single one of that amalgamated group, on a intimate level, and what motivates them, before you could reach this JUDGEMENT on even ONE.

JimmyJoe,
I didn't say that Mr. Greenberg is not being honest. I said that I wish I could be as sure of that as I am of BrianR.

Big difference.

I am late to this party, but...
i have felt for so long now, that the issues are just not being talked about...instead we are sidelined with sexual pecadilloes and vices of all stripes(thank you, Clintons.) Politicians, as we are so well aware these days, are more susceptible to the ways of the world, put gently. THAT IS NOTHING NEW! We should be talking issues and how we are keeping America secure...instead we get feasted on who is sleeping with whom and who knew what, when...I am disgusted with it all. The only dignity left to me as an American is my vote. Damnation to anyone who will take that away from me. Sleep with whom you want....who gives a rats a$$.....!!!!!

Bipsy Quee
"JimmyJoe, you may not like his delivery, but at least there is no doubt he is being honest. I wish I could say the same for Mr. Greenberg."

I accept that, but your words indicate that there is "no" doubt about BrianR's honesty, there IS room to question Mr. Greenberg's honesty, which implies...

Bipsy Quee, I dont have an issue with you. My issue here is a simple one. As you may gather from my posts. My difficulty - and it happens with some columnists more than others, but in this case Mr. Greenberg - is the complete disrespect they are accorded by certain posters.

Based on what? The fact that something is said those posters disagree with??? What happened to free expression? And simple reasoned argument based on the issues?


JimmyJoe
By "honesty", in this context, I mean, "where he is coming from".

Bipsy Quee
Then you are indeed questioning his honesty. I dont think that's fair.

As for BrianR's comment. It wasnt just his "delivery" I had a problem with. It was his message.
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