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Thursday, December 13, 2007
Paul  Edwards :: Townhall.com Columnist
Question Mormonism and You're a Bigot?
by Paul Edwards
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MSNBC political analyst Lawrence O’Donnell was recently cross examined by syndicated radio host and blogger Hugh Hewitt regarding statements O’Donnell made about Mormonism as a panelist on The McLaughlin Group. Here’s part of what O’Donnell said on McLaughlin:

On “Big Love” the HBO series, that has been a real headache for Romney. Here’s the problem. He dare not discuss his religion. And he fools people like Pat Buchanan who should know better. This was the worst speech, the worst political speech of my lifetime, because this man stood there and said to you, “this is the faith of my fathers.” And you, and none of these commentators who liked this speech, realize that the faith of his father is a racist faith. As of 1978, it was an officially racist faith. And for political convenience, in 1978, it switched, and it said okay, black people can be in this Church. He believes, if he believes the faith of his fathers, that black people are black, because in Heaven, they turned away from God in this demented, scientology-like notion of what was going on in Heaven before the Creation of the Earth.

Hugh Hewitt accuses O’Donnell of anti-Mormon bigotry for those words. Hewitt defended Romney’s allegiance to the “faith of [his] fathers” on the grounds that just because Romney is a Mormon doesn’t necessarily imply an endorsement on his part of everything his church teaches, in the same way Ted Kennedy or Rudy Giuliani are Catholics yet don’t abide by everything their church teaches.

There is however, a major difference, between the way in which Kennedy or Giuliani are Catholic and the way in which Mitt Romney is Mormon. The Catholic Church is on record as opposing politicians who profess to be Catholic while disregarding the Church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality. Show me one instance where the Mormon Church has ever declared Mitt Romney or Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid outside the bounds of its teachings on any issue.

The teachings of the Mormon Church are aberrant on fronts too numerous to mention. Mitt Romney has declared publicly his allegiance to his Mormon faith without citing one point where he disagrees with his church. Because Hewitt knows that many of the teachings of Mormonism are contrary to orthodoxy, he suggests that, like Kennedy and Giuliani, Romney doesn’t agree with his church on every point, without evidence to support the assertion.

Kennedy and Giuliani are on record on the points they diverge from their Church. Where is Romney on record on the points he disagrees with Mormonism? No such record exists. Until Romney himself denies it, we must assume the man believes the teachings of Joseph Smith in full; for Hugh to suggest otherwise flies in the face observable facts.

It is now becoming apparent that Governor Romney’s strategy for defending against legitimate questions about his Mormon faith is to cry “bigotry.” Governor Huckabee recently asked a writer for the New York Times magazine if Mormons didn’t believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers (a comment, by the way, that Huckabee has since apologized for). When the Associated Press picked up on the initial story, accusations of bigotry germinated in the blogosphere and spread like a virus through media, both old and new. Hugh Hewitt implied that by asking such a question Governor Huckabee might be a closet anti-Semite or an anti-Catholic bigot. But a simple visit to www.lds.org—an official LDS website—will readily show that the answer implied in Governor Huckabee’s question is the answer given by the LDS church! Is the LDS church bigoted against itself?

Every God-fearing American ought to be familiar with the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A man who holds to those teachings certainly is not disqualified from holding the office of president on that basis alone. But conservative evangelical Christians, who hold to the faith once for all delivered to the saints and who desire to defend that faith, are reasonable to ask themselves what a Mormon in the White House would do to elevate the profile of a false religion that presents itself as a form of Christianity. Dr. Albert Mohler recently wrote:

As an evangelical Christian theologian, I must clarify that Mormonism is in no way consistent with orthodox Christianity. It borrows Christian themes and texts, but its most basic beliefs directly contradict the central teachings of Christianity.

Mormonism holds that God is an exalted man, with a physical body. Christianity teaches that God is Spirit. Mormonism denies the historic Christian understandings of the Trinity, the person and work of Christ, and the doctrine of salvation. Christianity promises salvation through Christ’s atonement and the sinner’s justification by faith. Mormonism promises deification. Christianity calls for personal faith in Jesus Christ. Mormonism calls for obedience to its own teachings as the path to exaltation. Mormonism replaces belief in the sole authority of the Bible with other writings, including the Book of Mormon. This list is only a brief summary of the vast chasm that separates Christianity from Mormonism. Put simply, Mormonism is not just another form of Christianity. It is a rejection of historic Christianity.

I presume that Hugh Hewitt does not believe Albert Mohler is a bigot. The question for Hugh Hewitt and other Romney defenders is whether it’s helpful for the body politic (or for Romney) to be so quick and so absolute in leveling the charge of bigotry at those who feel obligated to at least clarify their religious convictions before stating their convictions as they relate to the presidential politics of 2008.

 

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About The Author

Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edward Program and a pastor. His program is heard daily on WLQV in Detroit and on godandculture.com

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Bigotry? Maybe.

Questioning Mormonism doesn't, in itself, make one a bigot. However, emphasizing the perceived but civically irrelevant "oddness" of an opponent's religious faith in the course of a poltical campaign in the United States is, arguably, either cynical or bigoted.

Mitt Romney should not have to indicate where, if anywhere, he disagrees with the teachings of his church in order to qualify for public office in a multireligious democracy. It should be enough that he demonstrate his character, his competence, and his independence of any potentially controlling interest group, and that he make his case to the American people based upon his policy positions.

Mike Huckabee's seemingly innocent mention of the "Jesus is Lucifer's spirit brother" notion -- the phrasing is foreign to believing Mormons and misleadingly connotes much more than it legitimately ought to, but (probably for that very reason) is commonly on the lips of evangelical propagandists AGAINST Mormonism -- looks very suspiciously like an attempt to focus the electorate's attention on the purported weirdness of Mormonism while nonetheless retaining plausible deniability.


Paul
Sadly I have been seeing alot of this at all the blogs I participate in.

I understand the need to defend ones faith, but suggesting that others are bigots because they don't beleive as you do is a bit unsettling.

Fred for POTUS! Cause he ain't no RINO!

Great Straw Man There Paul
It is not whether you question Mormanisn, it is the context in which you do so. It is not proper to ask religeous questions in a political context.

I am not inclined to vote for Romney, yet, but a vote for Rudy is just Hillary lite.

Fred is the one for me!

Whoops Daniel said it better!
Sorry about the spelling

Mormon missionaries are bigots
Every day thousands of Mormon missionaries go around the country spreading lies about Christianity and telling unsuspecting Biblical illiterates that shortly after Christ's return to earth the WHOLE Christian Church apostasized and fell away. So Millions of Christian believers for over 1600 years were deceived by Satan (according to Mormons) until Joseph Smith the glass seerer came along.

Isn't it the height of bigotry by Mormons to spread false stories about a Global Christian apostacy that they claim happened over 1600 years ago and without any proof except Joseph Smith's word.

In the Mormon temple ceremony there is a plan of salvation movie where the Devil hires/pays a man dressed up like a typical Christian pastor to deceive all of God's children.

What is that movie except the hateful bigotry of Mormons against ALL Christian pastors?

Mormons are so thin skinned. Mormons have been falsely preaching and claiming ALL Christian creeds are an abomination to God for over 200 years. Sounds like Mormons are the haters and the anti-Christians.

Stop teaching the hate, bigotry and lies of Joseph Smith's First Vision and then you thin skinned Mormons may have a leg to stand on.

The difference is facts
Mr. Paul Edwards

The problem here that made it so blatantly apparent that Lawrence O’Donnell is a bigot is that he didn't bother to get his facts right. He let rip and flaunted is utter ignorance of Mormon theology, what he did is akin to calling Catholics cannibals or saying that Jews worship a flaming bush. He thinks because he's got a few facts right that all the speculation and assumptions that have led him to clearly hair brained and racist conclusions are correct. They are not. His claim on why people are or are not black is patently NOT our doctrine, it's a racist view derived from speculation upon speculation. I'd encourage all to got to the wikipedia article on "Blacks and the Latter Day Saint movement"


He calls Joseph Smith pro-slavery, there wasn't a man more ANTI slavery! He advocated the government purchasing the freedom of the slaves! The Mormons were driven out, in part, because those in Missouri didn't want a bunch of potential abolitionists in their state!

When your facts are as wrong as O'Donnell's are it's apparent that ration and reason are not the underlying reasons for your disdain and, in fact, are not important at all.

Mohler actually has some idea of what he disagrees with, O'Donnell is clearly a bigot.

Brett doesn't know what 'bigot' means
Brett says "Every day thousands of Mormon missionaries go around the country spreading lies about Christianity and telling unsuspecting Biblical illiterates that shortly after Christ's return to earth the WHOLE Christian Church apostasized and fell away....

...Isn't it the height of bigotry by Mormons to spread false stories about a Global Christian apostacy that they claim happened over 1600 years ago and without any proof except Joseph Smith's word."

Brett we have more than just Joseph's word, we have all of history to look at. And we do.

And if it's bigoted to merely question the previously found Christian institutions and followers then you must classify Luther as a bigot, and then you must classify everyone of the reformers as a bigot, and every single church that broke away as a bigot.

Because, you see, every time a church is established, or every time there's a splinter in Christianity the only logical reason for such to happen is that the founders of the new sect determine all others available to them as deficient, and sufficiently deficient to justify a split or an attempt to reform or improve.

Are they all then bigots?


"Mormons are so thin skinned. Mormons have been falsely preaching and claiming ALL Christian creeds are an abomination to God for over 200 years. Sounds like Mormons are the haters and the anti-Christians.

Stop teaching the hate, bigotry and lies of Joseph Smith's First Vision and then you thin skinned Mormons may have a leg to stand on."

And since when is it hatred or bigotry to merely claim that those who are around you have got some of their facts wrong? We actually demonstrate where the facts are wrong, folks like O'Donnell, demonstrate they don't have their own facts correct.

Word Games
Mormon missionaries go about affirmatively preaching Mormonism. They attack no other faith.

There is no hatred involved, and certainly no bigotry.

To say otherwise is to twist the English language.

That affirming the truth of one religious view necessarily entails implying that conflicting religious views are in error by no means blurs the difference between preaching one's own faith and assaulting the faith of others.

Word Games
Mormon missionaries go about affirmatively preaching Mormonism. They attack no other faith.

There is no hatred involved, and certainly no bigotry.

To say otherwise is to twist the English language.

That affirming the truth of one religious view necessarily entails implying that conflicting religious views are in error by no means blurs the difference between preaching one's own faith and assaulting the faith of others.

Huckabigots here at Townhall?
That's a very interesting tactic whereby you bash Romney and his faith through an article condemnng people who call out those who make bigoted attacks aganst Romney and hs faith, offering cover for your views. It's kind of like the Democrats when they say, "How dare you call us unpatriotic!", while they work to subvert our war on Islamic extremism.

HiveRadical - look up bigot
From http://www.m-w.com
bigot -
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

Sounds like Mormon missionaries are proudly bigoted or "devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices" since they cannot prove that Joseph Smith's First Vision is true!

More Word Games

It's also impossible, according to most people, to prove that God exists or that Christ was resurrected. Your attempted redefinitioon of the word "bigot" would, therefore, affix that label to all Christians, and indeed to all theists.

Which is plainly ridiculous.

The operating words in your cited definition are "obstinately" and "intolerantly."

I know of nothing to suggest that most Mormon missionaries are typically "obstinate" and "intolerant."

The point is
this has nothing to do with the presidency, except to Huckabee and his supporters, b/c they hope to play into people's fear and bias of the "unkown". It's a shameless play on ignorance that has no place in politics.

What a silly, sophomoric article.

Questioning mormonism doesn't make you
a bigot . . .

Not voting or being able to support a perfectly satisfactory human being in public office JUST because they are a Mormon may be bigotry.

That's the point.

If, other than their Mormonism, you'd support the person 100%, then I think you've got a "religious test".

Question Mormonism all you want.

But is has nothing to do with the presidency.

Gosh, do you think it would be OK to do this to Lieberman and his Jewishness?

How come everyone on the left has been tight lipped about Harry Reid's Mormonism . . . but all of the sudden that now there's a viable Republican candidate for president who is also a Mormon it's an issue.

He was governer of Massachusetts. Did his Mormonism come into play? He chaired the Olympic games. was his Mormonism a hindrance? He built a fortune turning around failing companies. Was being a Mormon a problem.

So why's it a problem now?

therein lies the bigotry.

Paul Edwards is a fool
nuff said

This is the Huckabee problem....
Paul,
I have been doing quite a bit of research on the question Huckabee presented to the NY Times reporter for the past 3 days. I have found out the following information. The comment that Huckabee made is a common comment/question that has been asked of the Mormons for decades (you can also find it EVERYWHERE in anti-Mormon publications found at any Christian Bookstore--everyone knows that). It is a statement, taken out of context, which is used to shock and be inflammatory and sensational. Huckabee wasn't asking a sincere question. Huckabee has a PhD in Theology and is a Southern Baptist Minister. The Southern Baptists have been using this term in their anti-Mormon books, movies, articles, etc. for years. I just found out that Huckabee also attended a Southern Baptist conference in Salt Lake City a few years ago for the express purpose to spread anti-Mormon literature and information around. He even spoke at it. For Huckabee to say he was just asking an "innocent" question, is a farce. I am not a Mormon - or a Baptist, but even as a Protestant, I have often heard this statement quoted over and over through the years. When read in context to the Mormon explanation, it is put into perspective and not really accurate the way the Southern Baptists and others represent it. It's simply not that big of a deal. It's not only the "information" that is bigoted, it is the way these statements are made and in what context. Huckabee had no reason or right to even go there. His express purpose was obviously to make a derogatory sound bite to diminish Gov. Romney's religion, so everyone in the news would run it. Then, because of all the backlash, he quickly apologized after the Debate (for full effect). I was an ardent supporter for Huckabee until actions like this continued to undermine my trust and confidence in him as a man of honor and integrity.

Paul, I'd
Like to introduce you to a Mormon someday. Apparently you've never met one.

How to Choose
1st Religion says God gave guy stone tablets on mountaintop to show humans the way.

2nd Religion says God gave guy stone tablets, and when that didn't work, sent 2nd version of himself to artificially impregnate virgin with 3rd version of himself, who then died and was resurrected to save humanity.

3rd Religion says God gave guy stone tablets, and when that didn't work, sent 2nd version of himself to artificially impregnate virgin with 3rd version of himself, who then died and was resurrected to save humanity, and when that didn't work, sent angel to lead another guy to gold tablets and give him special rocks to translate them to show humans the way again.

Question why should belief in any of these religions disqualify anyone from seeking the Presidency?

Now we see why mitt had to
deliver the speech.

People like Edwards . . .

Drex

"Gosh, do you think it would be OK to do this to Lieberman and his Jewishness?"


Good point. They would not do it because it is socially unacceptable.


It is socially acceptable to bash Mormons though.


It's interesting


Interesting that the fundamentalists do not care about what values or policies a President pursues, all they care about are the beliefs of the religion he is part of.

That seems to be consistent with the indifference of fundamentalist Christians toward morality in general.

For example, you can be a mass murderer or whatever, but then, at the last minute, if you find Jesus, well all the horrible things you have done are expunged from your record immediately and you go to heaven without even a slap on the wrist.

Interesting concept of justice.

Reject this false argument
I reject the idea that we should choose a leader who best advances a relgious ideal. We should choose a leader based on his abilities, experience, vision and values for advancing conservatism. We are not choosing a religious leader to champion Christianity. He cannot and should not.

We are citizens of many faiths. Are all excluded from leading this nation except mainstream Christians? Is that not a religious test?

Edwards, you are not an American! You are despicable in your attempt to undermine our constitution.

Being LDS...
I have never called someone a Bigot. I think everyone should be able to believe what they want, and I respect peoples opinion. Although I can see how other Mormons can get discouraged, a lot of times we do not get the same respect that we give others. I still don't think calling everyone a Bigot solves anything.

Bigotry?
What I find hilarious is all the people insisting that Huckabee must be trying to play on bigotry.

Huckabee has been endlessly harassed on Mormonism because the media wants him to be a bigot, and they'll do anything they can, use any comment they can find, to try and start a fight. That is why they keep hounding Huckabee for commentary. And when Huckabee asks an innocent question, based on rumor he had heard, it makes for great media headlines, and it allows them to be comfortable in casting aspersions against evangelicals.

Our focus shouldn't be devoted to the question of bigotry. It should be devoted to the question of why the media is attempting to instigate political fights not related to policy.

Actually...
Actually, to that end that the media is trying to declare that "evangelicals won't vote for a mormon" and are ignoring the fact that evangelicals and other social conservatives don't trust Mitt on social issues due to his past record, I think a stronger case could be made that evangelicals aren't bigoted against mormons, but rather the media is bigoted against evangelicals.

The huckster
is a religious baiter. Stating that he didn't know @ Mormonism in his Times interview. After all these years as an ordained minister he is ignorant of Momonism? PLEASE!!

Religious Test
While we're at it...let's get rid of that Reid guy---he's mormon too. Funny how that always gets passing comments and no commentary.

If religion were the only controversial subject this would be enlightening, but really, Look at Mitt. He's no 'Raygun'! I'm mormon, and still not sold---but geez--the get gets points for straightening out the SLC Olys. + his other successes. As a second amendment conservative, I'd just as soon have a drunk test and an idiot test and throw out Kennedy, Pelosi, Chuckie and all the other wound up leftos.

He was the governor of MASS. for pete's sake. Massa-freakin-chusetts. Did he impose mormon rule on all those Catholics? Did he sign an executive order requiring tithing paid by all citizens. H E double hockey sticks folks. He, as a republican!, was elected to be governor by the same people who keep sending Teddy and Swiftie to the Senate! His policy shifts are at least understandable in that light, and that was a feat of Herculean proportion.

If you're persuaded by the likes of John Ankeburg and "doctor" Walter Martin--I'm not sure you should be voting in the first place. Get over the FEAR. Mormons breath, bleed, think and die, like everyone else. Just because the theology is S C A R Y -- or threatening to your own--shouldn't overpower your ability to reason and rationally examine the mans record.

But hey, if it's that big a deal, I'll trade a Tancredo or even Paul for your religious test and let's ban mormons from every office (It'd be worth it to get rid of Reid!). (sounds a little national socialistic to me though)

Jesus, Satan = brothers
God created Satan.
God created Adam.
God created Jesus.
We are all children of God. Brothers and sisters.
Those who were created by God are siblings.
Therefore, Jesus and Satan were brothers.

By the way, Paul Edwards is a disgusting bigot.

The huckster
is a religious baiter. Stating that he didn't know @ Mormonism in his Times interview. After all these years as an ordained minister he is ignorant of Momonism? PLEASE!!

There is no question
There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning Mormon beliefs. But there is something very wrong with asking Mr. Romney - he is not a representative of the church. Anyone can of course feel free to ask Mormon missionaries and leaders of the church any doctrinal questions they want.

Being Mormon didn't stop Mitt Romney from being a successful CEO at Bain, it didn't stop him from rescuing the Olympics, it didn't stop him from turning around the Massuchussetts budget crisis and being a successful governor, and it's not going to stop him from being a great President of the United States.


Every Religion has weird beliefs...
If you want to be frank, you can howl with laughter at just about every religion. I choose to laugh at none of them; religious belief is by its nature unprovable. It should therefore be an entirely private matter.

Sure, Mormonism has some seemingly crazy beliefs, but so does classic Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I disagree with all of them, and I respect all of them.

Just to prove my point:

Weird Mormon beliefs: sacred underwear, forbidding alcohol, believing Joseph Smith's obviously fraudulent "Book of Mormon" was given to him by an angel on golden tablets that conveniently disappeared. (Trust me, I could go on.)

Weird Jewish beliefs: Cutting the naturally-occurring foreskin from a man's sex organ is necessary to demonstrate a "covenant" with God. Eating shellfish is an abomination. Priests should cut the throats of animals and walk around an altar, sprinkling the blood (this last was long ago dropped in embarrassment).

Weird Christian beliefs: God is both three beings, and one being, at the same time and in the same sense (the ultimate denial of the law of non-contradiction). Jesus, who is God, can pray to his Father, who is also God. Yet, there is only one God. Does this make any sense whatsoever? Also, God fathered a child by a virgin (actually, this isn't so unusual--lots of religions have such stories).

Weird Muslim beliefs: Cutting the naturally-occurring foreskin from a man's sex organ is necessary to demonstrate a "covenant" with God. Eating pork is an abomination. Drinking wine is an abomination. Conversion on the threat of beheading is a good thing. And so forth.

I could care less about Romney's Mormonism. I think he's a lousy, power-hungry politician. His religion is the last thing that would concern me.

Coco writes:Thurs,Dec,13,2007 8:38 pm
Very well written and very accurate.

Thank you,

Nuff Said.

Has Romney actually cried bigotry?
"It is now becoming apparent that Governor Romney's strategy for defending against legitimate questions about his Mormon faith is to cry "bigotry"."

When has Romney cried bigotry?

Rogers, Arkansas
The day TH columnists and readers hold Huckabee responsible for the imported illegal aliens, modern slavery, and sex trafficking he openly condone for Tyson Farms is the time I'll start believing anything printed about this Pharasee.

AMERICANS SHOULD BE SCARED OF LDS!
I strongly object to the ignorant, bigoted comments expressed by Paul Edwards here:

He writes:

"The teachings of the Mormon Church are aberrant on fronts too numerous to mention."

Like what? Having healthy families?
Abstaining from drugs and booze?
Promoting positive books, movies?

I have been in and out of many "Christian" churches - most have gone over to cultural Marxism - worshipping pop stars like Bono, Madonna, Nelson and Winnie Mandela. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (That's the church's name not THE MORMON CHURCH") is a healthy place, the church leadership has worked very hard to bring the church into mainstream Christian beliefs and practices. So is is a big deal that the Latter Day Saints teach that we have (healthy) bodies before and after death?

I take strong issue with the ignorant bigot who wrote this smear job on Mitt Romney and all decent Latter Day Saints Americans.

Is anyone here seriously worried about going into some LDS neighborhood and getting mugged, robbed or raped like so many neighborhoods in America where the family, rule of law has collapsed?

The writer of this ignorant bigoted column would never dare to write something negative about Muslim or Jewish people yet these two groups are involved in terrible bloodshed in the Middle East ans their hatreds spilled over into the USA on 9/11/01.

Is the writer or any other anti LDS/Mormnons here are they worried that Mitt Romney or his LDS church members will highjack US airplanes and crash them into US office buildings? How about suicide LDS bombers?

Come on folks, let's get real.

LDS American are perfectly good Americans good Christians...

.

Christian apologetics==hate speech
Criminalizing such an off-handed question is looking awfully aggressive, rude, and snarling to the millions of Christians who have taken time to study their faith, compared it with others,

and have concluded that the Mormon Jesus is ontologically distinct from the Jesus of the Bible. Mike Huckabee did not originate this idea, and millions agree with it.

So what are we, chopped liver?! Unfit to run for office? Bigots? Unfit to vote? Is that hate speech? It sounds like Mike was set up and baited until he said something about Mormonism.

I have never seen the Mormon card being played so heavy-handedly as it is now. Stunning.

My opposition to Romney is solely based upon his liberal platform and leadership as gov. of Massachusetts. He's a recent leaf-turner on conservative issues and should not be allowed within 500 miles of the Supreme Court.

romneyrecord on You Tube



Hugh Hewitt & bigotry
Hugh has gone over the edge. The night before the Romney speech he was calling people bigots and his personal attacks on Huckabee reflect the same intolerance.

Luther once said that it is better to be ruled by a competent Turk than an incompetent Christian. One's religious faith should not be an issue. I would vote for Romney if he is the nominee and I would have voted for Joe had he been the nominee and faced "W".

Here is the problem--instead of making arguments Hugh has found it easier to launch personal attacks. Huckabee made a mistake and apologized for it. Hugh owes his listeners an apology for insulting their intelligence. As a long time listener to his show in LA and over the net, I am frankly shocked at his conduct and the quality of his show.

your missing the point
There's nothing more the Democrats want than to see Republicans talking religion. Gotta focus on taxes and security or we'll lose.

JA - right
The Huckster is the one who started this whole thing. Romney never wanted this to be about religion and has taken the high road at every turn. Huck saw his only opportunity to break in by exploiting some religious bigotry. "Christian Leader" in a commercial? Give me a break. And we are supposed to believe he honestly didn't know the old Jesus and Satan are brothers jab? Please. And asking a NYT reporter the unprovoked question, not fishy at all.

And don't bother about the fact that he was the KEY NOTE speaker of an anti-Mormon conference in SLC no less. The Huck knows PLENTY about the LDS faith.

Huck cannot answer whether he thinks Mormonism is a cult or not. Why not? Because he either thinks it is or cannot afford to offend the bigots supporting him.

What a sorry state of affairs, and it's all coming from Huck.

traditional theological view
"Or, for example, the rather incendiary charge that Mormons believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, which I think is designed to inflame not to inform. People are never given the theological context in which that proposition makes some sense and they are never really told what the alternative is. It has always seemed to me rather odd to say that one view is blasphemous but the other view is not blasphemous. You see, it is one thing, as some of you have heard me say, to believe that Satan or Lucifer is the spirit brother of Jesus, the Son of Heavenly Father went wrong. That's an explanation, maybe, of evil in one sense. We don't typically hold parents responsible if they raise their children well and the child simply takes a bad turn--becomes a serial killer or something like that. On the other hand, if the parents raise the child to do what he ends up doing, we regard the parents as morally culpable.

More comparable to what I see as the traditional theological view is that Jesus is the Son of God but Lucifer is the creation of an all-powerful, all-knowing God. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew exactly what would happen (because he sees the future perfectly), and created Lucifer out of nothing. That seems, to me, to create at least a dilemma, a little problem, called a problem of evil. Because then God knowingly is leading down the path that will lead to Auschwitz and the Killing Fields of Cambodia. And I'm not sure that's a real improvement over the Latter-day Saint view. It just seems to me that if you are going to look at theological problems that you perceive with one view, you have to acknowledge that there are some real dilemmas connected with the other view as well."

Double Standard
Do I sense a double standard here. Was not the SBC founded on the preservations of slavery? Were not most SBC congregations segregated even past the late 70s (the date Mormons allowed Blacks the Priesthood).

No one claims that the SBC is racist.

For that matter many Protestant congregations are still quite segregated simply by choice of the members. Blacks tend to go to Black churches and Whites tend to go to White congregations. I am sure that there are quite a few integrated congregations.

However, in the Mormon faith you belong to a congregation based on geography which tends to produce a lot of integration.

The Mormon Church is a world wide church with members in most congregations from many different races. It's racial profile is probably similar to the Catholics. There may be more people in the church who speak Spanish or Portugese than English.

Oh Goody, Another Bigot
raises his ugly head. Don’t think so? How about this definition of bigot (from the Encarta Dictionary) – “somebody with strong opinions especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views”. Case closed!

Mr. Edwards if you weren’t a bigot you would not seek to desecrate and minimize Mitts (and 13 million other people’s) heartfelt and personal beliefs in God and Christ. Most reasonable and tolerant men would allow that Mitts religion has no bearing on his ability to lead this country in a dignified, competent and honorable manner.

Where does this hate come from? What have we done to you? In people like you and Lawrence O’Donnell I see the insufferable hate and intolerance that caused men to paint their faces, dress up like indians and shoot down our beloved prophet, his brother and other innocent men in cold blood. Is that what it would take to stamp out this cult? Those awful mormons!

Maybe you should start a movement to re-open the ovens and take care of those stinking Mormons once and for all. Sound ridiculous, so does your bigoted article.

Real big of you to use a self avowed “evangelical Christian theologian” to define a Christian and a mormon. What gives him the right to be the final judge of the definition of a Christian except your bigoted opinion. An LDS scholar if given the chance could sit down with Dr. Mohler and answer his claims point by point using the same bible scriptures and historical documentation he uses.

Will that happen? Nah, let’s just get it over with and get the next holocaust fired up.

Have a great day, bigot!!!

Are evangelical for Hellary???????????
Reading this article I see that if Hellary wins it will be not because of she caters to illegal or gays or whatever she is doing but because born-again crowd snobs its collective evangelical nose on everybody who is not exactly of their creed. We are in a dare need of a strong, smart and traditional-values oriented (yes, mormons are traditional-values oriented )candidate who is well electable (yes, if we care about USA we must think about electability). Romney is not perfect indeed, but we should not snob anybody because of theological differences. After all, Mormonism is not fundamental Islam nor new-age trash. It really steaks to Judeo-Christian values. Let’s grow up and win. Moreover, our treacherous el presidente Bush has proved that being born-again is not a guaranty of being a good American leader.

Racist Bigots
If we are such racist bigots, why do so many of our people learn a foreign language, give two years and spend several thousand dollars to get a lot of doors slammed in their faces.

Very misleading article
The author offers no example to back up his claim that Romney is crying bigotry. He goes on at length about Hugh Hewitt, but last time I checked, Romney and Hewitt were not the same person.
The media and Huckabee have acted like childish idiots in their relentless attempts to make an issue out of Mormonism. Romney has been nothing but gracious.

Romney's Faith
This is the worst case of bigotry I have read about Mitt Romney. And forgive me I support Fred. This is a religious group that for the most part has supported Republican and conservative policies for a long time. Orrin Hatch, except for his friendship with Teddy the Bear, has been a solid conservative. Yes there is Harry Reid, but we all have our Father Drinans. Let's leave the religious bigotry to the Demwits.

I was a Mormon Missionary
I confess. I was a Mormon missionary. Oh my goodness! And I had no idea I was running around being a bigot. I worked 70 hours a week sharing a beautiful message that God loves his children and has provided everything they need to return to him. I experienced joy then and I continue to do so today as I try to live the teachings of Jesus Christ. I have many evangelical friends. I disagree with many of their beliefs, but I feel no need to attack them. I am not threatened by their difference in theology. I served as a missionary to find those who were searching for more light from God. I found many. Others were not interested. That was fine. That was their choice. All men should be free to believe as they choose. LDS missionaries go out into the world to offer people a chance to learn more about our church. We believe our church is the true and restored church of Jesus Christ, so of course we feel a great responsibility to share it. However, we never force it on anyone. We never have meetings where the beliefs of other churches are attacked and taken out of context and changed to make them seem frightening and weird so that our members will shun any contact or discussion with members from that church. And you will not find Mormon leaders writing foul, ugly, Bigoted articles attacking another church, such as this article was. I am thankful that I belong to a church where the members feel no need to run in fright from those of other religions. I live in the Bible belt, so I am surrounded by far more evangelicals than Mormons. There is no need to fight, argue, or get upset about differing doctrines. Seek answers from God. Trust his guiding Spirit. I am quite content to let God decide who is serving and following him according to his will. I guess this article was written by someone who thinks he is doing God's will by attacking my church, but somehow I have a hard time picturing Jesus as acting in such a way.

I agree but....
that column was a mess

What's Really "Aberrant"
Mr. Edwards says, "The teachings of the Mormon Church are aberrant on fronts too numerous to mention." Excuse me, sir, what's abberant is your journalist's ethics. I highly doubt you know much about Mormonism, and I highly doubt you are honest about the "odd" beliefs your own belief system professes, whether you are an atheist or an evangelical protestant. Please don't throw more fuel on this irrelevant fire. Let's focus on the issues that really matter in a presidential election.

On Record
I must have missed Rudy being on record about points where he diverged from his faith. As I recall he said his faith was private and to bug off. Which for him is a good strategy. Romney has tried to do the same but guess who has insisted he make a speech?

You got your speech but that was not good enough. Huck and elements of the press are the ones who want to drag religion into this race. It suits their agenda.


An LDS converts perspective
From my perspective as a convert of 40 years:

The LDS Church has an incredible organization that gets things Done. We build over 350 buildings (churches and Temples) each year. We send out about 30,000 missionaries each year. Over 17,000 Mormon congregations are staffed by men and women who are entirely volunteers. There is no paid clergy.

In an example, during the last few years in Africa, we have dug hundreds of wells to provide fresh water. We have provided thousands of tons of food and clothing to impoverished Africans. We have provided micro capital loans for education and to start small businesses. We agressively teach abstinance programs to slow the HIV virus. This is but one area of the world that we work in.

Next year my wife and I will leave on a mission to Central America to teach child care and sanitation (wife is an RN). We will join thousands of missionaries that are already serving in Central and South America in differenct capacities. We do this to serve the Lord and his earthly chidren.

I have never met Mitt Romney, but I have know many like him. He is honest and decent. Even if one does not agree with his theology, you cannot fault his values.


a
I think that arguing about which religion is more bigoted is equivalent to arguing about which brand of bottled water is more wet.

Third point
The official policy of the Mormon Church is simple. The political positions of its members are their business and that is especially true for those who hold office.

This is from LDS.Org and the official position of the Church on LDS politicans.

Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to represent.

The church will not excommunicate you or deny you the sacrament if you vote against Church policy.

That is separation of Church and State.

Mohler
To the best of my knowledge Al Mohler is not a bigot. However, his explanation of LDS theology is not complete.

LDS theology indicates that God is both anthromorphic (has a glorified body of "flesh and bones as apposed to flesh and blood) and has a spirit. Further, his being emanates a spirit through out the universe. The LDS concept of God encompasses Mohler's depiction of God as an omnipresent spirit.

On works and grace. Mormon do believe in salvation by grace. However, a careful reading of ALL of the Bible scriptures indicate that works and ordinances also are required. That position is similar to Church of Christ and the Catholic Church. Further, many Mainline Protestant Churches require baptism and other ordinances or sacraments.

The Mormon position is closer to Orthodox Christianity than Mohler is indicating.

Mohler (and Huck) are also very aware of every verse in the Bible that addresses Joint Heirship with Christ. Mohler knows he would get "churched" if he really preached ALL of those verses as they plainly indicate that those who are truly saved are not just angels. Truly saved persons share in ALL of the divine attributes of God. If they did not then why do the Bible scripture say we will be like Christ when we see him?

The vast chasm alluded to is not that vast on the issues Mohler is raising and he knows it well.

This is more slight of hand and posturing by People who know better.

Good Article
One that puts things in perspective . I've yet to see Mormons openly defend their other-than-biblical teaching in public. It is too exposing. So, to spread smoke they are left to cry bigot.

But like those who know the real dollar, the counterfiet is so easy to spot.

Political reality
I don't care about Romney's Mormonism (there are plenty of reasons not to vote for this man), but his supporters have to face the reality that in the unlikely event that he wins the nomination, the fact that the church needed a revelation to allow blacks into the priesthood in 1978 is a major problem.

Before everyone calls me a bigot, I think people should understand that we're talking about 30 years ago, not 300 years. If he wins the nomination, which he most likely won't, Romney will have to say something about that. It is a reality that Romney surely knows. If he thinks that reasonable questions along these lines is bigotry, then he isn't fit for office.

"Reasoned" Huckabee was not
I couldn't disagree with this commentary more.

It's hard not to agree with Hugh Hewitt's assessment. If Huckabee had actually commented to the NYT reporter that "you know, Mormon's have a different understanding of God than many Christians..." and went on to actually educate the audience on Mormonism, that would have been great. However, dropping an unanswered question such as "don't they believe God and the devil are brothers?" is indefensible. It's childish at best and outright bigotry at its worst. Most likely it's just as Hugh suggests: Huckabee was trying to color less informed or more impressionable voters' opinions of Romney by casting Romney's faith in what some people (Christians or not) might consider a negative light.

Romney's professional and political careers have given me no reason to believe that his personal faith will motivate Presidential actions antithetical to the Judeo-Christian principles on which our liberties are based. If this was not the case, a thorough line of questioning on how his faith will influence is actions would be warranted.

I’m not a Mormon, a Catholic, a Evangelical, or a Baptist, but I am a Christian, and I believe that Huckabee and those criticizing Romney’s reaction more than they are criticizing Huckabee’s behavior should be ashamed of themselves.



traditional theological view
More comparable to what I see as the traditional theological view is that Jesus is the Son of God but Lucifer is the creation of an all-powerful, all-knowing God. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew exactly what would happen (because he sees the future perfectly), and created Lucifer out of nothing. That seems, to me, to create at least a dilemma, a little problem, called a problem of evil. Because then God knowingly is leading down the path that will lead to Auschwitz and the Killing Fields of Cambodia. And I'm not sure that's a real improvement over the Latter-day Saint view. It just seems to me that if you are going to look at theological problems that you perceive with one view, you have to acknowledge that there are some real dilemmas connected with the other view as well."

Did someone say extra-Biblical beliefs?
Did someone say extra-Biblical beliefs?
Sincerely, The Nicene Creed (325 A.D.)

Mr. Edwards, are you stupid or just lazy
Mr. Edwards, you quote Lawrence O'Donnell as a source for the foundation of your argument? Why stop there. How about searching the archives of Moveon.org?

Your argument is bust that Romney needs to take issue or otherwise distance himself from the LDS Church. For what? that they changed dogma/theology regarding Blacks in the 70s, or that they outlawed polygamy in 1890? A valid challenge is to the LDS Church for why they did so, not to Mitt Romney for being a member of a church which changed its policies for apparent societal approval. That is a sign that the LDS church seeks to assimilate itself, not distance itself from society. Further, you trot out Dr. Albert Mohler as an authoritative source for identifying Mormonism as being outside the mainstream of Christianity? Why stop there? 'Mainstream Christianity' has literally thousands of factions who identify Mormonism *and* each other as outside the mainstream. Hells bell's around AD 100, Christianity was outside the mainstream of religion - a 'cult' if you will. What changes a 'cult' into a mainstream religion? Critical mass. With over 14 million members worldwide, it is the fastest growing Church in America. Should mainstream Christianity (whatever the hell that is) be concerned? Yes, very, very concerned. Each $ that is tithed to the LDS Church is a $ that doesn't go into the pockets of an Evangelical Minister.

Whose to determine the validity of any given dogma - especially that of Mainstream Christianity who largely derives its belief in God from the Nicene Creed. A god that assumes 3 forms, is everywhere but nowhere, small enough to fit in your heart, but large enough to fill the universe. Now there's clarity. Though not a Mormon myself, I see more logic in the idea of a God and his son, Christ as separate glorified beings -- not puddles of mercury.


Lisa in DC:
I'm not saying Huckabee is reasonable. Far from it. His AIDS comments clearly show he is not reasonable - or honest. I'm saying that the question about not allowing blacks into the priesthood until 1978 is reasonable. It is only reasonable because Romney was clearly an adult in 1978. People will want to know how he felt about this practice. They'll ask him if he or his family said anything against it at the time. If he won, he would definitely be required to address this issue.

George Romney
George Romney marched with Martin Luther King. So much for all of your cries about racism. Where were you?

faith of my fathers?
There are so many things wrong with this article and the comments posted that I am not sure where to begin.

But let me simply say that I am a Mormon and the religion described by the author and his sources doesn't describe the church I go to. We do not believe in deification, in obedience over faith, and there is no paid minister in the ceremony decieving people for the devil.
I was a missionary for two years and they told us not to talk about other churches, but instead focus our message on the Savior.

We are not and never were a racist church. We follow a prophet who communes with the Lord. Blacks are not punished for rejecting God in the life before.

I don't understand how people say the things they do and get away with being totally inaccurate. Trust me, I know alot about my church, much more than you do.

With all due respect to Dr. Mohler but he is wrong in his assertions about Mormonism. We believe that we are a restoration of historical Christianity. I won't debate doctrines here, but we believe that a restoration took place and that God once again has a Prophet on the earth and has continued to teach new things....aka the Book of Mormon etc and clarify old doctrines.

It is not our teachings but traditional Christianity's views that make the gulf so wide between the two. Why do they believe God is a spirit? because it is tradition. The Bible itself can be used to support the argument that he has a body or that he is Spirit.

Why do others beleive in the Holy Trinity as one God? Because it is tradition a totally fine tradition. They need not call us heretics and cult members for disagreeing.

Hey JimP
You apparently haven't been paying attention. The LDS church has made available a veritable treasure trove of explanations of Mormon beliefs. Go to LDS. org. It's available to anyone. Read any of the hundreds of talks and articles, that are available to all, and you will see that the LDS church takes seriously its responsibility to share its message with the world. But don't expect an argument. The devil thrives on contention. We seek the spirit of the Lord to understand his will. Anyone who doesn't agree is free to go merrily on their way.

and to the poster named Reason: How sad that you don't believe in a God that loves his children enough to continue to give guidance and direction through modern revelation in these trying and troubling last days. So yes, a revelation from God was an important ingredient in the Blacks receiving the priesthood. And for your information that was a joyful day all over the world for church members. We are not racist and we do believe that God has his reasons. We have faith, and that faith is strengthened through the Holy Spirit. I wish you well.

It doesn't matter,,,
It no longer matters about Mormons and what they believe, now that Mormons finally see how the hickabigots feel about them, trust me, they(hickabigot) will never win the presidency again,,,Too bad the Mormons didn't walk away from the party in 04.
Born again bigots won't vote for mitt, which is great, but the funny thing is, a bigot never that smart, so when their lap dogs lose, and lose every election from now on, because Mormons will return the favor they'll sow the seeds of hate and get what they deserve.
Mormons are now leaving the republicans party, 6 million, not voting,,, or voting the other way,,, you lose!,,, and the mormons use to vote for born agains, but not anymore.
I personally will vote for the communist party before I ever vote for a Hickabigot.
Finally the Mormons have woke up.


Paul Edwards: A BIG FAT LIAR
I'm not normally a name caller, but let us be clear about this:

ROMNEY HAS NEVER CALLED HUCKABEE A BIGOT! In fact, when Huckabee cried those alligator tears to Romney, Romney did something amazing:

HE FRANKLY FORGAVE HIM!

Honestly, I can't believe nobody but JA here has even picked up on the fact that Paul Edwards is being a bold face liar by saying Romney is crying "Bigot".

Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you guys simply believe everything you read? You think because Edwards said Romney cried "Bigotry" that Romney indeed did it? If so, no wonder you believe all that anti-mormon propaganda, hearsay, and innuendo.

JA - I think you and I are the only ones paying attention here.

Propping up Huckabee
Please don't defend Huckabee. His 'innocent' question about Mitt's faith probably wasn't all that innocent. Do you mean to tell me that a Baptist preacher doesn't know about what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe? I think he knows it and he probably knew what he was doing when he asked that question when speaking with the NYT. The question he asked isn't a big deal but the fact that Huck probably knew what he was doing and was trying to insinuate that what Mitt believes is wrong, is telling. I'll give him a slight benefit of the doubt that it was really accidental and innocent but I really doubt it was. And Mr. Edwards, I suggest you ask someone who is LDS to tell you what they believe instead of someone of another faith. You might get more accurate information.

Romney NEVER called Huckabee a "bigot"
In case you didn't read my post just above or didn't get it. Edwards is trying so hard to get as much mileage out of this that he's willing to lie to do it.

Utterly pathetic.

llee:
Excuse me? Do you know me? You don't know what I believe. This is exactly why this is a problem. If you think that I am crazy for understanding that the average voter (we're talking about a man running for President, remember) wouldn't be a little put off by a religion that needed a revelation in 1978 to welcome blacks fully, you're crazy.

I'm talking about a political reality. Politics is why all of this matters right now.

Who said that I didn't believe God didn't love his children? I didn't say that you were racist. Did I? I said it looks bad. Which it does. Romney will have to comment on it. You know the way the media works. If the standard response from Romney supporters is to jump all over someone for simply expressing a thought on this issue, than Romney doesn't have a prayer. Got it?

The lie verbatim
Let me quote what Edwards says above:
"It is now becoming apparent that Governor Romney's strategy for defending against legitimate questions about his Mormon faith is to cry "bigotry"."

What an unbelievable bold faced lie. Seems Huckabee isn't the only one who should apologize to Mitt. In fact, Huckabee didn't really need to - he only did it as a publicity stunt. I don't think Huckabee did anything wrong (just disgusting - running on a populist platform of religious superiority), but Edwards certainly did.


What makes a bigot: Lying for ridicule
That's what O-Donnell did when he said that Blacks couldn't join the church until 1978. Blacks have always been able to join the church since 1830. The problem was with becoming a mormon minister - had to be white. Yes, that was racist, but a far cry from the segregation O'Donnel falsely accused mormonism of.

Reminds me of when Bill Maher fabricated a lie about a mormon doctrine that blacks had to be slaves to go to heaven, during his "Real Time" series. No such doctrine even exists in anti-mormon propaganda. He made it up - and no mormons where there to defend it - everyone watching now believes it's true.

Add Edwards to that list now of bigots who lie to paint Mormons in the worst way possible.

WAY TO GO EDWARDS!!!!

Beliefs should be considered
The constitution prohibits the Government from applying a religious test for office. It does not prohibit citizens from applying whatever test they want. If a presidential candidate was from a radical Muslim sect, citizens would be completely reasonable to question that person’s qualifications based upon their religious beliefs. If they followed some strange cult around handing out tracts at the airport with their head shaved, that would likewise give people reason for concern. This is not bigotry; it is simply recognizing that a person’s beliefs and religious affiliation say something important about their character and judgment.

When it comes to Mormonism and Mitt Romney his religion is not in the category of the radically dangerous or obviously brainwashed belief systems. However, it is clearly outside the realm of orthodox Christian and if that bothers someone because of their own personal convictions then it is perfectly reasonable for them to use that information to judge whether the candidate’s character is in-line with their own values. If a person is accurately informed about another person position and has an honest disagreement with their views that is not bigotry. If those differences are central to a persons beliefs then they are only being true to their own faith when using that information to judge whether they will support a candidate or not.

BG:
I wasn't born yet. That's where I was. Do I think the Romney's are racists? No. Do I think George Romney was admirable for leading a protest march against mistreatment of blacks? Absolutely. Do I think that all of the Mormon stuff being kicked up by conservative Christians will create a problem for Romney? Yes. Do I believe that the media will ask Romney about the 1978 revelation? Yes. That's all I'm saying.

Everyone should keep in mind that George Romney didn't have a Mormon problem in liberal Michigan. Mitt Romney didn't have a Mormon problem in liberal Massachusetts. The only reason Mitt has a Mormon problem now is because he needs social conservatives. Social conservatives are only exercising the politcal power that was willingly given to them by the Repub electorate.

Political Milage
Just as the dust up over the snide comments about Obama that Clinton's staff has let loose on the media, so is this issue over Romney and Huck.

Bigotry, I don't think so.

From the Mormon's web site, an overlooked statement of faith by Joseph Smith almost 150 years ago and is included in their scriptures:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may"

Goes to prove...
I always thought a Mormon President would be more acceptable to the Democrats than he would to the Right wing evangelical.

The good thing is that if he can get the Republican nomination you can be sure that the Democrats won't wage this kind of war on him. Oh, they'll pull some stinkers but they know if they play the religion card their own constituents will vote for Romney out of sympathy. That's the bleeding heart liberal way.

Thank you Author
For showing us exactly what a bigot is. Shame on you.

Not sure what Evangelicals are scared of
The Mormon church isn't growing all that fast in the US. In fact, nearly all pundits agree Wicca (paganism) will have the largest following in the US within 10 years, and will be the 3rd largest religion in the world within 5 years. It has been doubling in size almost every year for the last 15 years.

In case you didn't know ... these are people who worship "mother earth" and all kinds of mediums and entities through which they believe they can get power via spells and what not. They are very serious. They have very few corollary teachings with Christianity. Things like the golden rule? Not much there. But things like putting a hex on your neighbor? Or a spell to take away someone's free agency to make them love you? Yeah. Plenty of that.

That's not what bothers these Evangelicals. It's those pesky shiny Mormons with their big loving families whereby they deceive the world.

to Ron
Indeed the traditions of other Christian denominations have stood the test of time. My point is that that doesn't mean they are always right or justify us being labeled as we are...to many as non-christians. We are Christians who see things a little differently than has been believed for 2,000 years.

Mormon missionaries are bigots



Brett writes: Thursday, December, 13, 2007 6:52 PM

Mormon missionaries are bigots


By the very nature of your article Brett, establishes you as a Mormon hating Christian. You are so full of crap here, that I bet your eyes are Brown. Giving that, without lying like the rest of your comments, have you ever been in a Temple?

Racism and the burden of proof
I am LDS and am happy and proud to answer all questions about my faith, even the insincere ones, even in public, but sometimes, especially in public debate, there should be great care to establish the burden of proof. For example, to those of you who would agree with O'Donnell and Edwards on the the "racism" of Mormon doctrine, you have a difficult biblico-historical problem: if your definition of racism is that personal worthiness AND lineage (NB: it was always LINEAGE, NOT color of skin) cannot be considered together as requirements for authority as a representative of God, then by your own definition, God Himself has been racist a long time since he confined accession to the Priesthood not only to only one of the nations of the earth (the Hebrews), but to only one of the twelve tribes of said nation (the Levites). Since the LDS also believe in proxy ordination to the Priesthood for all deceased males who previously could not hold it (whether because of God's own rules about lineage being part of the qualifications, or because it simply wasn't available in their part of the world or in their period of history), the sting rather drains from this ever stranger seeming charge of institutionalized racism. By the way, my mission was served in Africa!
Now that was religion...Would anyone care to put that aside and talk politics?

Reason
As I recall George Wallace did very well in MI in his presidential bid.

I am suggesting that all Romney has to do is say that he was for integration long before many of the "Christians" were and also before the Mormon Church changed policy on the Priesthood.

In 1978 (and for a great many years prior to that) there were million of Mormons who were hoping and praying that the policy on the Priesthood would be changed.

Romney's religion is not that important as an issue. It is used as an issue in the primaries as there is little else to attack Romney with.

Yes I know some claim he is to polished. Some claim he is a flip flopper while ignoring McCain's 8 flip flops or Rudy's flip flop on immigration this week or Huck's flip flop on immigration last week.

When you get right down to it, religion is the last hope the anti Romney forces have.


Talk of Religion
All of this talk about religion is driving Huck down like a rock in the Vegas odds.

He went straight up and now straight down. He was at 14 + the last time I looked.

Someone knows something. I am not sure what it is but it is not good for Huck.

Primitive Christian
Okay. Official Mormon Doctrine is in agreement with 1st century Christianity (the first 50 years or so).

Even during Paul's time there were divisions. See the first and third Chapters of First Corinthians. Paul refuses to teach the meat of the Gospel because there are divisions. In fact for the most part the Pauline Letters contain mostly milk.

This is the same strategy Luther and other Reformers followed when they broke off. They rejected much of the higher Gospel on the grounds that the Catholic Church had not preserved it. The reformers started over with the basics, mainly faith and repentance and two ordinances, baptism and the sacrament.

Some in Modern Protestantism have reduced that down to "alter call or profession of faith" Christianity. That has no sacrament (other than making a profession of faith).

Paul and Peter got into a dispute over elements of the law verse grace. Paul taught the "gospel of uncircumcision" and the rest of the Apostles taught the "gospel of circumcision" (Pauls own words, you can look up the reference).

Revelations talks openly about the condition of the 7 churches. Many members and some of the Churches were in a state of apostasy even then. Paul mentions false apostles and those who had already entered into the Church as pretended apostles. He also talks about those who were wolves and did not spare the flock. He talks about those who had "gone out" from the flock.

Much of the Church was in a state of apostasy by the time John writes Revelations.

The Nicene Creed is 200+ years later and the divisions were deeper, wider and there were many more by that time.

Linking Mitt to LDS Institution
This strategy is very effective - Bush/Cheny used it by linking Gore to the Clinton administration i.e. the clinton/gore administration. They also used it to link Iraq to terrorism and convince americans it was necessary to go into Iraq (over 65% americans supported the war within this context) - even though democrats tried to say Iraq did not attack us on 9/11 - linking Iraq to terrorism was how americans supported the war and that was all that mattered. If Hugh did not mean for people to take the title of his book seriously - he should have picked a different name. This link will cost the republicans the women voters, and the minority voters in large numbers - never mind the "truth" about polygamy and allowing blacks to become members at the LDS institution (Remember Trent Lott????). Americans may forgive adultry, inconsistent immigration or abortion records but sexism and racism is taken seriously and causes people not to trust the person linked to such an organization. Romney does not have the conviction or clarity to explain how the faith of his father will influence his policy - except to ask americans to ignore his faith when voting for him even though he will remain true to this faith. For example; Bush informed americans he was born again, believed in the sactity of life and marriage and that is why he was pro-life and defined marriage as one man and one woman. This is what a man of conviction and clarity does - not call people bigots or confused if they question how his faith influences his presidency!!!!!!! Romeny lacks the conviction and clarity (based on his record) to be president - americans won't be smittened.

Political reality
Reasaon: Why are you hung up on whether or not blacks received the PRIESTHOOD in 1978. They have it, and thats waht matters. A question for you: "How long did it take mainstream Protestant Churches to recognize and accept Black congregations?" Seems to me it wasn't that long ago that down south, some white Church refused a cogregant to be buried in the Church's grave yard because she was amrried to a black. Wise up REAL!

Well, what do you know . . .?
Here we have yet another "Christian" pastor who preaches for money telling us what the evil Mormons believe and how it is really bad stuff. We get it already Paul - Mormons have cooties and every person they convert (or capture, if you'd rather) is one less person you or your ilk can get to pay you for your preaching.

I'm no longer relious in my own life and it is attitudes of supposed "Christians" like Pastor Paul that helped me make that decision.

However, what I have seen of Mitt's background and life gives me some reason to hope that there still may be some good in religion after all.

To Ron
Thank you, but I have to disagree to a point about our doctrine not being Christian. You see I believe that there is no other way for me to be saved in the kingdom of God except through the grace, love and mercy of Jesus Christ. I am not sure which denomination you belong to, but I am sure we have that belief in common. Without Christ we would have no hope.
I think that belief makes me Christian. It is after that belief that our churches start to part ways. I also believe that even though I am completely dependent upon him to be saved he still expects me to become more like him and God the Father.
This is why we go to church, go to our temple, read the Bible and Book of Mormon, etc, etc. To become more like Christ.

We believe that Christ and God the Father are seperate individuals. Christ is He who completely and totally turned his will over to God and thus became exactly like God. His aspiration and desire is for us to do the same throughout the course of our lives and into eternity, we will become like Him. Now some critics will turn that into "They will become Gods and they are polytheists", etc. I don't think so. To me the beautiful simplicity of this doctrine is that God, our merciful Father will give those who desire it, everything that he has. We will never be equal to him or be better, but we will be "like" Him.

Maybe that is not traditional Christianity...but it is Christ focused indeed. Because without him the whole plan would fall apart.
We believe that after being with God and Christ for eternity

O'DONNELL IS A COWARD!!
BIG DEAL, SO O'DONNELL SLANDERED THE MORMON CHURCH. MORMOM'S ARE GENERALLY A PEACEFUL PRODUCTIVE PEOPLE, WHO ARE TO INVOLVED IN THEIR OWN LIVES TO WORRY ABOUT THE LIKES OF O'DONNELL.

LET'S SEE O'DONNELL GET ON NATIONAL TV AND DISPARAGE ISLAM OR IT'S PROPHET.

IT WONT HAPPEN. WHY, THERE MAY BE CONSEQUENCES.

O'DONNELL IS A COWARD.

oops
I made a typo...disregard the last line of my previous post...

Very corrupt view
BG writes: 1:30 AM
Primitive Christian
Okay. Official Mormon Doctrine is in agreement with 1st century Christianity (the first 50 years or so).
-------
ts:
Where?
You are so far from the 1st Church you may as well be on mars.
-------
BG writes:
Even during Paul's time there were divisions. See the first and third Chapters of First Corinthians. Paul refuses to teach the meat of the Gospel because there are divisions. In fact for the most part the Pauline Letters contain mostly milk.
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ts:
To say Pauls Letters, which are the Commandments of the Lord contain mostly milk is bizarre.
A stunning accusation against God Himself and His Chosen Apostle.
An indictment against the Holy Word of God, satanic in its origins.

Fact is, you and Joe Smith are going to be Judged of God according to what this man has written.
If you do not know the fear of God, I suggest you learn some, quickly.

You had best listen to what Paul says here, his "milk" is going to Judge you:


Romans 2:16 -
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Romans 16:25 -
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began..

1 Timothy 1:11 -
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

2 Timothy 2:8 -
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:


You need to learn what the Gospel is and what Paul spoke to about the milk of the Word.
The meat is to be taught to all who can discern good from evil.
And you do not even know enough to feed the milk to.

scientology, mormonism, and Star Wars
If people would take the time to inform themselves about mormonism they'd see that it's one of the craziest stories ever told, and is very close to the beliefs of scientoligists.

If people want to believe it that's fine, but I have every reason and right to question whether or not their belief in such a story, and one's use of that story as a guideline for living, disqualifies them from serving in office. In this case, it most definitely does. I could take the teachings of Star Wars literally, but now that would be silly, wouldn't it.

Ron
The holy trinity was handed down from the emperor CONSTANTINE in 325 AD.. at the council of NICEA..

Constantine wanted to incorporate the new CHRISTIANS as the state religion UNDER HIS CONTROL. He wanted christianity stop all the bickering they were doing back then and follow 1 set of rules (like the roman empire).

He needed to set the guidelines in order to do it. They picked and choosed at the council over what would be the theology of this religion.

They decided on the trinity.

I cant vote for Mitt
I am an active Mormon. I have no problem admitting that our religion's theology is different.

That said, I will not be voting for Mr. Romney. I do not like his ideas period.

However, it is sad that in this country it is his religion that will prevent him from getting the nomination. What is particularly sad is that it is misinformation regarding the church what fuels this distrust for Mitt.

We are a Christian religion, we believe that Jesus is our savior. Yes, our understanding of the nature of the trinity is different. Yes, our understanding of salvation is different. However, it is the core values of our religion that is key, that the family as the foundation and cornerstone of our society, life is precious, etc.

Finally, the LDS will not take a political stand. It is church policy. there are millions of LDS members throughout the world, to take a political stand is simply unmanageable.

NO PREACHER in CHIEF NEEDED
Fundamentalists again prove they are bigots
the enemy within:

WE THE INDEPENDENT CONSERVATIVES (who are all pro life) are sick and tired of
the extreme right's destruction of the GOP

The extreme right wing has chased every moderate independent out of the party:

Remember: the FUNDAMENTALISTS gave us 8 years of Clinton and are going to do it again

WE WANT a Fiscal Conservative: and a security Hawk: that is it
we can all decide about religion, god at home

Fundamentalists are BIGOTS
WE the independent conservatives and the moderates know that for at minimum the Christian Fundamentalists are Bigots:

NEED MORE PROOF:

Devil is the brother of Jesus, INDEED
what more proof do we need:
HE thinks he is running for PREACHER IN CHIEF
he is nothing more than a liberal in a Preachers Cloak:
HUCK is a Bigot: HE PROVED IT:

RON Paul ins UN American, he is another Al Gore
blaming the USA for all of the failings in history and in the World even before the USA was founded:
RON PAUL needs to run for President of a terrorist nation:

Barackocherrypickit
Nice link of mostly cherry-picked quotes, devoid of their context and significance. They all seem quite damning, especially the extended, less cherry-picked ones. Do you think any LDS member today feels anything other than utter embarrassment that it took us (as a religion, and let us not forget, as a nation too) so long to understand the irrelevancy of phenotype to any God-given talent, ability, intelligence, or potential? Of course, the careful reader (as opposed to the drive-by anti-Mormon attacker) will note that none of these are scripturally based, or even claim to be LDS doctrine, but rather claim to be speculations (decisive ones, but speculations, nonetheless) based on current understandings of doctrines. It is nonetheless dismaying that any such racist ideas were taught at all, much less in the Civil Rights era and beyond.
But let's try the same tactic the other way around as a thought experiment and see if it makes the point about cherry-picking even more strongly. Did you know that Billy Graham said: ""Only when Christ comes again will little white children of Alabama walk hand in hand with little black children." (Richard O. Emerson and Christian Smith, Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America, New York: Oxford University Press, 2000, 47)
Of COURSE Billy Graham's NOT racist. He was making a dour prediction that he hoped would never come true and was working to make sure it didn't.
It may seem weak to you, Barackoblogger, to appeal to context to something that appears so blatantly unequivocal, but if you're sincere, I'm willing to walk you through them all one by one and you'll agree with me on the contextualized facts by the time we're done that LDS Doctrine is not and never was racist. I can be contacted from my blog at defenseoftruth.blogspot.com

Ron
We agree that Jesus is the Son of God. We do not agree that God is one in 3 persons.

We believe that the Godhead is comprised of 3 personages who are in agreement and harmony, each of whom is a God.

If you look carefully in the Bible that makes a lot of sense (the baptism of Jesus, the stoning of Steven, Christ praying in Gethsemane to have the cup lifted. Did Christ pray to himself and ask for something he knew he would deny himself and then say Thy will not My will be done?).

The Trinity is derived of a political and religious compromise that appeased Greek philosophers who had brought Greek philosophy into the Church. It never was the original understanding of the nature of God during the age of the Apostles.

See John 5:37 And the Father himself hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

If Jesus was the Father (the 3 in one God of the Trinity) why would he tell his disciples who were looking at him and talking with him that they had never seen nor heard the Father at any time?

Why does Jesus in John 14:28 say "I go unto my Father: for my Father is greater than I".

Also see John 20:17 where Jesus tells Mary not to touch him as he is going to "ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God and your God.

John 5:19-20. Jesus could do nothing of himself but what he seeth the Father do.

The Trinity does not make a lot of sense.

Milk
1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


to Ron
It looks like some others have already pointed this out but you're right, we don't believe it as a 3 in 1 Godhead. We do believe the nature of God to be different than that.
And it came from christian councils way back in the 300's and 400's who did their best to try to understand what God was. Because I am not a Catholic, I do not beli