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Tuesday, November 27, 2007
Paul  Edwards :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who's Afraid of "The Golden Compass"?
by Paul Edwards
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“The Golden Compass” is Book One of a fantasy trilogy written by English author Philip Pullman in the late 1990s called “His Dark Materials.” Philip Pullman is an unapologetic militant atheist. For example, in a 2001 interview with the Washington Post, Pullman said: “I’m trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.”

The title for the trilogy comes from a line in John Milton’s “Paradise Lost” and Pullman views his trilogy as a re-telling of Milton’s poem (which means that “His Dark Materials” is in reality Pullman’s re-telling of the Genesis story in fantasy form). Interest in the series has been revived as New Line Cinema is set to release their theatrical version of “The Golden Compass” on December 7—just in time for the holiday movie season.

The preemptive strike from the conservative Christian community, led by William Donahue of The Catholic League and Donald Wildmon of the American Family Association, has become more of a story than the release of the film itself. Donahue views the movie as an attack on Roman Catholicism, denouncing as “pro-atheist” both the movie and the book upon which it is based. He’s calling for a boycott of the film. In a recent press release The Catholic League warned their constituents that “His Dark Materials” was “written to promote atheism and denigrate Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism” (a charge Pullman denied in various interviews even before it was leveled). Donahue characterizes the trilogy as “atheism for kids” and the movie as “bait for the books.” The American Family Association, “because of Pullman’s clearly articulated anti-Christian motives,” is “warning all viewers to run from the film.”

In a strange twist of life imitating art, this reaction to “The Golden Compass” validates the image Pullman creates in his trilogy of Christians and of organized Christianity generally.

In Book Two of “His Dark Materials, The Subtle Knife,” the Queen of the Witches says:

I don’t know who will join with us, but I know whom we must fight. It is the Magisterium, the Church. For all its history … it’s tried to suppress and control every natural impulse. And when it can’t control them, it cuts them out … That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other.

Pullman is not completely wrong when he characterizes the Church as an organization obsessed with holding power by suppressing and controlling.

But such a Church is not the true Church as defined by Scripture. Contrary to Pullman’s depiction of the Church, Jesus never sought positions of power. On the contrary, he retreated to a mountain alone when the crowds came to make him king, and refused Satan’s offer to be granted all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus mandated that His followers deny themselves, lead by serving, humble themselves like children and achieve true greatness at the end of a path of suffering and humility.

Pullman’s depiction of the Church is a false one, but it does not follow that the Church Pullman depicts does not exist.

Throughout history people who have identified with the Christian faith have done horrible things in Jesus’ name. In New Testament times, when the Church was in its infancy, the true Apostles combated those who claimed to be apostles, but were not, and tested them and found them to be false (Revelation 2:2). In the church at Corinth, the Apostle Paul identified men who were disguising themselves as apostles of Christ, calling them “false apostles” and “deceitful workmen,” pointing out that “even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). Such false apostles are still within the Church today. The Apostle John warned that “many antichrists have come,” and that not all who profess the faith are truly “of us” (1 John 2:18, 19).

Pullman chooses to identify as true what in reality is a false religion in the garb of Christianity—while ignoring the work of the true Church in the world. Redefining good as evil is a plot element Pullman uses throughout the trilogy, and not just in relation to the Church. The books are a prime example of what Isaiah warned against when he said, “Woe to them who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness” (Isaiah 5:20).

Our response should not be to merely paint Pullman as a liar and deceiver, denying that the Church he depicts exists. On the contrary, we should agree, at least in part, with Pullman that such a Church has existed—and still exists—but that it is not the genuine Church, as Pullman leads his readers to believe.

If “The Golden Compass” is a lie passing itself off as truth, is the appropriate course for us to run from it, to bury our heads in the cultural sand, pretending that, if ignored, challenges to the faith aren’t real? Would you deem it a valid response if your college freshman merely ran from the challenges to her faith she can expect from her atheistic philosophy professor? If not, why would you encourage your children to run from the challenges to their faith implicit in Pullman’s trilogy?

It seems to me the proper response from those who are convinced of the truth ought to be to engage error, not run from it. Rather than fearing our children might read a book or see a film that challenges their faith, such a scenario presents us with an opportunity to teach them to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

We should be willing to read the books and see the movie with our children (of the appropriate age and level of maturity), engaging the difficult issues raised by Pullman, and allowing the True Compass, the Word of God, to guide us into all truth—to bring to light the hidden things of darkness. If true followers of Jesus Christ boycott “The Golden Compass” we run the risk of validating Pullman’s thesis that Christians suppress and control, rather than engage in open and honest debate in a vibrant, passionate and intelligent defense of the faith.

Why not counter Pullman by being a living demonstration of the Church he fails to portray in his trilogy rather than validating him by being exactly what he says we are?

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About The Author

Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edward Program and a pastor. His program is heard daily on WLQV in Detroit and on godandculture.com

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A shallow look at deep danger.
Pullman's goal, in his own words, is to "kill god in the minds of children." One can assume that he hopes that after children watch his movie, they will read his books which become much more anti-Christian as the series progresses.

Unfortunately, the faith of adolescents and teens is not always strong enough to chance such an encounter with the vile Pullman heaps on the concept of believing in God.

Besides, having read the books, I find them poor imitations of better fantasy. Pullman allows his hatred of religion to taint his writing, making it poor reading for adolescents.

Whose Scripture?
"But such a Church is not the true Church as defined by Scripture."

What a load of crap. The Church and its followers wrote the Scriptures hundreds of years after Christ died. The Church in the Scriptures is that desired by those who wrote them down. But then so are the rest of the Scriptures. Which means that nothing in them can be taken as a factual account of the life of Christ. We don't know for a fact that he went off into the desert. This may have been something some third century theologian thought he would have or should have done. We don't know what he said at any given moment. It's all made up.

Deornwulf 11:01am
I agree with your comment: "I find them poor imitations of better fantasy. Pullman allows his hatred of religion to taint his writing, making it poor reading for adolescents". Pullman's writings remind me of a poor high school student trying to write fanstsy.

Much better reading can be obtained with the "Lord of the Rings/Hobbit" or the "Chronicles of Narnia".

Wow...
A completely reasonable and calm response to criticism of religion.

That kind of stuff has no place on TownHall!

Mr. Edwards, you better get more shrill in a hurry or you run the risk of being ignored on this site!

Golden Compass
The church isn't the center of my faith. The church is flawed, just as every other institution is. In its best form, it is the best organization on the earth. however it has its failures too.

The center of my Faith is in and through Jesus Christ and the Bible. I attend a good church, because I can associate with some of the best people on this earth. I don't attend it because it is Methodist, UCC, Baptist or whatever.

Come on folks - this is very similar to The DaVinci Code - it is fiction and opinion and this is the USA.

justpaul
I can see that you have a great deal of hostility toward the church. I don't know your reasons, but I can understand why you and others feel that way; what Edwards has written is, unfortunately, all too true. As Edwards points out, many evil things have been done in the Name of Christ. There is a false church, an apostate church which does not have faith, and even within the true church are many who claim to be Christian who are not. But the true church has done many good things; its adherents have made great sacrifices in the Name of Christ. If the Christianity is totally made up, if the only goal of the church is power and control, how do you explain the Mother Theresas of this world? What was in it for them? She gave up a life of privilege to serve the poorest of the poor, and many others like her have made similar sacrifices, even giving up their lives. Were they all just hopelessly deluded?
I suspect you haven't read the Bible, or at least, that you haven't done more than browse a few passages out of context. May I suggest you read it? I mean really read it, in a modern English translation, study it, see what it says for yourself (not what some anti-theist professor says it says), and then talk about it with someone who is open-minded. And may the God of Truth and Love open your mind and heart.

It is a childrens fantasy story
Get over it already, this is a poorly organized three volume childrens fantasy tale - the movie seems to concentrate on the adult players ignoring that book 1 is about two children and a polar bear.

These books will disappear back into obsurity shortly after the movie.

Hmm
Only the weak need worry about this type of movie or book. As others have already said, the books just aren’t that good. I can’t see them advancing atheism or striking very hard at the Catholic Church.

fiddler
It has nothing to do with the church. My concern is with idiots like Edwards who want to site scripture as proof that someone else is doing something wrong, yet never bother to even confront the fact that those scriptures were written by the same people they are taking issue with. What version of the Bible is he quoting scripture from? Who wrote it? Who edited it? When?

The two things that are missing from every version of the Bible I have ever read are all the scribes who must have been following Christ around writing down his every word, glance, or movement, and an honest acknowledgment that none of this was recorded in his lifetime, or even shortly thereafter.

Quoting the Bible to take issue with the Church is beyond moronic.

As for their being a "true church": that too is moronic. What scripture do you base your "true church" on? Who wrote it? When? You cite examples of people acting compassionately as proof of some divine revelation, yet animals also act with compassion yet they are rarely presented as Christians.

At the end of the day, all you have is faith, which, conveniently enough, is all the Church says you need. Everything else is BS.

I have to agree...
...these books were not well written, and even my 10 year old son thinks so. He was very excited when the teacher recommended it, which, by the way, put my sensors on 'stun', but was so disappointed with the writing in the first book that he decided not to bother with the other two.

I did take it up with the teacher, though. She doesn't think the Narnia books were good reading, but these were....I have a feeling I shall be VERY involved from now on....;-)

Definitions
Here's how to tell the difference:

By definition, if it is good, it comes from God.

By definition, if it is bad, it comes from Satan.

So, by definition, if the Church (especially the Roman Catholic Church) does something bad, it must have been doing it under Satan's influence, even if they say they are doing it under God's influence.

If an aethiest does something good, he is doing God's work, since if it is a good thing that he is doing, it must, by definition, come from God. This is true even if the aethiest passionately declares that God has nothing to do with his decisions or actions.


Narnia
Narnia is not good reading. It's misogynist and not very imaginative. But then, Lewis's goal was to put talking animals around his positive view of the Roman Catholic church and patriarchal society. His goal was not to tell a good story.


justpaul
"What a load of crap. The Church and its followers wrote the Scriptures hundreds of years after Christ died."

According to whom? Prove your assertions. I don't think you can.

GeorgiaGal
Could you explain how Narnia is misogynistic? I always viewed Lucy as the real heroine, pure of heart and soul.

Ignore the hotheads
The movie reportedly excised about 90% of the book's atheism. The beef by Donohue, Wildmon, etc., is with the book. And I doubt they read it any more than they saw the film. These hustlers want to score political points rather than convey wisdom. And they're probably not very good actors or stuntmen either.

GeorgiaGal
"By definition, if it is good, it comes from God.

By definition, if it is bad, it comes from Satan."

For someone who professes a disdain for Narnia, you seem to quote it very well. Your definitions are the entire premise of the book "The Horse and His Boy".

But definitions, like labels, are tricky things. Lucifer (aka Satan), came from God, so he must be Good under your definitions.

A.J.
There is no copy of the New Testament as read by most Christians which predates 300 AD. Most of you read the King James Version, written 1500 years later.

Find me a copy of the Bible written in either Christ's hand or that of any of his 12 Apostles, and you might have something. Minus that, all you have is your faith that what has been reported to you as true is true.

YLG 12:03pm
I agree with you, the "Chronicles of Narnia" are classics and will be read for a long time to come.

I personally prefer "The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit"; but that is only my preference. Narnia and LOTR are both great reads, especially for the young.

BTW; I hope you like your new pistol whatever it is.

justpaul
"There is no copy of the New Testament as read by most Christians which predates 300 AD. Most of you read the King James Version, written 1500 years later."

Sounds to me like you're making the assumption that because no older copies exist, that they never existed. You've not yet convinced me that your assertion is true.

Gray Ghost
I'm a fan of J.R.R. Tolkien, as well, but I have found the books to be a little above a 8-10 year old level. I'm currently explaining all the allegorical aspects to my 12 year old, who wants to be Arwen when she grows up.;-)

As far as my handgun, don't know yet, since it's for Christmas. I will announce it to ALL come December 26th!!

justpaul 12:10pm
You are incorrect about no evidence of the New Teatament predating 300AD. Quintas Septimius Florons Tertullianus (155 to 230AD) refered to the New Testament scripture in his books (written approximately 200AD).

The quotes from the New Testament in his books read almost exactly as the New Testament books they are taken from. Therefore, the New Testament predates 200AD. There are other references in earlier works (mostly Roman and Greek).

The most proveable dates for the writing of the New Testament that I have seen are between 45AD and 120AD. As more research is done, I believe that more proof will be obtained to confirm those dates.

BTW, we do not have any books or manuscripts actually written by Socrates. Does that mean he didn't exist?

fiddler927
I agree with you about actually sitting down and reading the Bible to understand it before you attack it without reading it first.

It wasn't until I actually sat down and read the New Testament from cover to cover and asking God if he was real and to reveal himself to me that I finally became convinced of the truthfullness of the New Testament. God is faithful to reveal himself to those who ask and are willing to accept him as their Lord God when he does.

Good article
This was a well-thought out article. Instead of "book burnings", we all should take the time to read books that we think are against our faith or beliefs, especially before we decide to criticize them.

I have never read more than the first book in the Narnia series, and that was years ago, so I don't have an opinion either way and would not profess to be able to share one on it. I have read most of the LOTR and found it to be slow, plodding. I enjoyed the movies much better. I don't consider this to be a result of my MTV generation, for I have read other such "long" books and found them to be much better written (mostly Sci-Fi).

I have read the Harry Potter books several times and for those of you willing to put aside the "magic" part, they are books that teach that LOVE is the most powerful thing in the universe and LOVE in the end really did conquer all. The "magic", like the "magic" in Narnia or LOTR is just a means of telling the story. It is not a how-to series and even the author said that was so.

But people don't read the books. They read excerpts or listen to preachers take things out of context.

As Edwards says - read the books with your children or see the movie and DISCUSS. This teaches "critical thinking" and having an "informed opinion", which is more productive in society than people raling at each other over ideologies. Isn't that what they do in the Middle East? Aren't we above that?

Edwards piece is a good lesson for ALL people - listen to the other side, no matter how much you disagree. You may learn something new and you may even change your mind on a few things and that's not necessariy a bad thing. Look at me, I used to be a die-hard liberal. While I'm still generally more socially liberal than most of you guys, I still hold more conservative views than I used to. I listened, read, became informed and made my decisions.

Agree with ladykrystyna
From my personal experience over 95% of my conservative Christian friends and their children have either read all of the Harry Potter books or seen all of the movies.

ladykrystyna's evaluation of the books corresponds with ours.

However, I prefer not to waste my dollars on the Golden Compass movie until I heard from friends that the movies is worth the money and is not another anti-Christian propoganda piece from Hollywood.

Read and debate, not suppress
Edwards is right: If we Christians disagree with Pullman, we should read the books and debate the ideas in them.

Calling for bans, without any closer knowledge of Pullman and what he says, plays right into the hands of the Left, who sterotype people of faith as closed-minded and stupid.

Let Leftists ban open discussion and free discourse. Conservatives can match them, any time, any place, and shouldn't shrink from a good fight.

Hillary delenda est.

Gray Ghost
"BTW, we do not have any books or manuscripts actually written by Socrates. Does that mean he didn't exist?"

That is a good question. While he never wrote anything, and if we discount Plato's dialogues which could basically be collected and called the "Bible of Socrates," all we have is Aristophanes' "The Clouds" and mentions by the historian Xenophon. While I don't think that you were trying to be skeptical about the existence of Socrates, the question does raise other questions.

justpaul makes no good point
justpaul claims that the New Testament was written down "hundreds of years" after Jesus lived. That is not correct. He also challenges us to produce writings "in Jesus' handwriting" or written by his apostles.

There is no historical evidence to suggest that Jesus set anything to paper, so that is a non-issue. But the Gospels are all considered to have originated with their respective authors, who were all among the twelve. And they are considered to have originated in a span of time reaching from the years immediately after the Crucifixion to a decade or two after. So, to imply that they were written "hundreds of years" after is merely to make a false accusation, that does nothing to clarify the issue.

Hillary delenda est.

Here's the funny part . . .
Movies like Lions for Lambs, Redacted and Rendition all did POORLY at the box office. There was one movie called, I think, The Kingdom, that involved FBI agents tracking down terrorists in the Middle East - the director was shocked that in the end, the screening audience went wild when the good guys clobbered the terrorists.

From what others have said about this series of books - it goes to prove that what people want, in the end, is a good story. If The Golden Compass is a poor story, it won't do well, and it doesn't matter if it's anti-Christian or not.

I would say that the more a story beats into your head something politically or religiously (or anti-religiously), the less people will like it. Human beings like good stories FIRST and FOREMOST.

In that way, I trust human beings to make the right choice about these movies and books and I don't think anyone needs to get their knickers in a twist over it at all. Same thing with the Da Vinci Code - it was just a story and most people saw it that way. If they were already pre-disposed to conspiracy theories, then so be it. The rest of us enjoyed it as a good mystery yarn and suspenseful story.

The more you make of it, the more people will want to see it. If you want to see it, do so. If you don't, don't. But boycotts have done more to get people to see and read this stuff than otherwise.

ladykrystyna
A note about, "The Kingdom":

The original ending involved Saudis with explosives strapped around their waists, who, as the FBI is going home, go in and destroy the FBI contingent along with every other innocent Saudi. The director didn't want to make the Saudis look bad, so he made the FBI look like guntoting wackos. And for his efforts, the audience cheered.

Your posts are dead on, no pun intended!!

theBaron 1:13pm
I disagree with your comments (but not in a harsh manner); neither Luke, Paul, nor Mark were of the original 12. Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) was a Jew. Mark was at least part Jewish and trained as a preacher with Paul. Luke was a Gentile (Greek) and a doctor.

What is to me always puzzling is Paul. There was no greater foe the early Church had than Saul. His conversion must always be looked at as almost proof that the New Testament is true. Otherwise, why did he convert?

Warnings appreciated
I appreciate knowing about this movie and the motives of the author. I do not consider it "running away" to spend my money elsewhere. "Just a movie" means not only that we need not fear it, but also that we can spend our movie budget on a worthier movie.

Eating Poo
I don't have to eat poo to know that it would taste bad. I am not going to go see The Golden Compass so I can debate its merits. I read a library copy of the novel to avoid spending any money on it. Buying it would be supporting Pullman, something I refuse to do.

Bible before 300AD? Yes.
One commenter named Justpaul... said the following:

"There is no copy of the New Testament as read by most Christians which predates 300 AD. Most of you read the King James Version, written 1500 years later.

Find me a copy of the Bible written in either Christ's hand or that of any of his 12 Apostles, and you might have something."

justpaul, hopefully this will enlighten you.

Your right Christians dont read Bibles written before 300 AD. They couldnt. At that time Christians were still being persecuted by Rome and could not have an open and public religion. But that does not mean there was not a list of New Testament books and letters recognized by Christians and the Church. There were letters and books recognized and historical documents to back this up.

Here are some lists of the New Testament before the fourth century.The Muratorian Fragment dated between 170-190 AD. The P^46 papyrus document, a codex list from 200AD. And also the evidence from early church fathers who lived with, or directly following the deaths of the Apostles. They quoted New Testament literature extensively, as early as 100AD. Which in only 10 years of the death of the Apostle John.
My answer is a bit longer but wouldnt fit in the comment section, check out my brand new townhall blog I made to answer your claims:
http://apilgrimsjourney.townhall.com/





So what? Teach the kids correctly
"Golden Compass" is hardly the 1st effort to turn youngsters away from Christianity. IYAM, the original "Star Trek" series (the universe of Star Trek being noticeably socialist & Roddenberry a socialist & pro-UN) probably did it better. Pullman's books are well-written technically & have a lot of intriguing ideas, but when I plow thru the 2nd & 3rd one I start feeling like I'm going nowhere.

Lyra comes from a universe different from our own. Ho hum, what relevance does the despotic church in her world have for the Church we recognize?

Furthermore, the Authority turns out to have so little resemblance to God as revealed in the Christian scriptures, I must wonder whether the identification will even register with most kids. Not to spoil it too much, but the Authority partakes of the same heretical theory of God's nature as a number of nonChristian cults. Moreover, there's no analog or representation of Jesus at all.

IMO "Golden Compass" might possibly turn out to be a catalyst for teaching real Christian theology & belief to one's children as a comparison & contrast, rather than a wedge to drive them away from faith.

theBaron, justpaul
"But the Gospels are all considered to have originated with their respective authors, who were all among the twelve. And they are considered to have originated in a span of time reaching from the years immediately after the Crucifixion to a decade or two after."

The Crucifixion occurred in about the year 30, while the generally accepted date for Mark, which is the earliest of the Gospels, is around 70. And Mark wasn't among the twelve but was an associate of Peter, so we aren't getting Peter's observations directly, but through someone else.

justpaul may have a point about Jesus and writing. It's strange Jesus never wrote anything, but he's wrong about things being written down hundreds of years later. And if he just means copies of what was written down earlier, yes, but some of those copies are from the second century, not as late as 300. They aren't of the whole New Testament, but at least portions of it are.

No Bible before 300AD? Yes.
One commenter named Justpaul... said the following:

"There is no copy of the New Testament as read by most Christians which predates 300 AD. Most of you read the King James Version, written 1500 years later.

Find me a copy of the Bible written in either Christ's hand or that of any of his 12 Apostles, and you might have something."

justpaul, hopefully this will enlighten you.

Your right Christians dont read Bibles written before 300 AD. They couldnt. At that time Christians were still being persecuted by Rome and could not have an open and public religion. But that does not mean there was not a list of New Testament books and letters recognized by Christians and the Church. There were letters and books recognized and historical documents to back this up.

Here are some lists of the New Testament before the fourth century.The Muratorian Fragment dated between 170-190 AD. The P^46 papyrus document, a codex list from 200AD. And also the evidence from early church fathers who lived with, or directly following the deaths of the Apostles. They quoted New Testament literature extensively, as early as 100AD. Which in only 10 years of the death of the Apostle John.
My answer is a bit longer but wouldnt fit in the comment section, check out my brand new townhall blog I made to answer your claims:
http://apilgrimsjourney.townhall.com/

Voting with My Wallet
If the movie was free, then I wouldn't mind reviewing it first to see if it's truly anti-Christian or not. However, it's not free. I will be rewarding the writer and movie studio with my hard earned dollars, and may indeed have to walk out of the movie in disgust. I am a Christian and would welcome honest debate about Christianity, but I would not welcome paying for someone to indoctrinate me (or my children) with their beliefs. It's simple common sense... I'm not burning any books... I'm just saying "no".

Narnia > Golden Compass
My first exposure to Narnia came when a friend who had read all the books took me to the movie.

My reaction was, and still is, "This is the first time I've walked out of a theatre feeling CLEAN".
The only flaw that I could see was in having the wolves on the wrong side. Wolf is ancestor to Dog, and Dog is Man's True Companion.



I haven't seen or read the Golden Compass. As the author says he wishes to destroy Christianity in some way, I'm not particularly interested in what he has to say.

If The Golden Compass promotes such traditional views and values as did Narnia, then it is well worth watching. If good and evil are as clean cut, if human failing is self-healing and ultimately redeemed, if not one female throws a punch, if not one breast is exposed, if not one PC comment about sex or race or socialism is made, then *maybe* the movie might be worth seeing. But I still won't pay 10 bucks for it.

I may watch the movie when it comes to cable, because then I won't be PAYING EXTRA to see it.
I may not want to suppress such authors, but I darn sure don't want to promote them.




Agreed
gandolphxx writes: Get over it already, this is a poorly organized three volume childrens fantasy tale - the movie seems to concentrate on the adult players ignoring that book 1 is about two children and a polar bear.

These books will disappear back into obsurity shortly after the movie.
=================================================

Wonder why a producer had to pull out a book that sucked to make a movie about? Until the movie was being hyped I'd never heard of the book, the series or the author and neither had my children. By next summer this will be another movie that shocks Hollywood - can you say money pit? Now that Tom Cruise has proven that his contribution to a movie ensures box office depression his exwife feels the need to join the fray.

With turds like this coming out of Hollywood how long until "Show Girls 2" or "Blazing Saddles - The Return" seems like a good idea?

No Bible before 300 AD?
Well, considering that a scrap of papyrus that chemically dates to AD 100-110 was found not too long ago with two verses of the Gospel of John on it, I'd say that's a false premise. Many scholars believe John's Gospel wasn't written until AD 90 (although there's internal evidence that the writer was unaware of the destruction of Jerusalem which would indicate an earlier date), it seems interesting to me that copies existed 10-20 years later. IOW, possibly the last book of the New Testament written was in wide circulation through copies within 10 years of its writing. History records that Paul's epistles were circulating in bound form by the end of the first century. There are a lot of fragments of Scriptural books that date before AD 200, but no whole compilations before AD 300. However, the fragments would give us nearly three-quarters of the New Testament.

We don't the originals. So? We don't have any originals for the biography of Alexander the Great. In fact, we don't even have fragments of copies that date within a centuries of his life. Yet we have no problem believing that Alexander existed and did the things history says he did. We have many fragments of New Testament writings and we could reconstruct 85 percent of the New Testament from quotes by 2nd Century church fathers. Together, fragments and quotes, you've got the New Testament more or less in its entirety.

So, no, the New Testament was NOT written centuries after Jesus lived. It was written within decades of His death and within the lifetime of the witnesses to the events and teachings surrounding Him.

Get your facts straight!

Golden Compass and my children
I have read the books. My 14-year-old daughter skimmed "The Golden Compass". She's been exposed to great literature and she wasn't impressed. She said if she wanted to read a "godless" fantasy, she'd rather read "The Dark Is Rising" trilogy because it's at least well-written and good overcomes evil in the end. She called Pullman "a manipulative writer", which had been my (private) take on him.

When I told her about the other two books, she advised me that her little brother, age 8, shouldn't go to the movie.

She has a lot of confidence in her beliefs. She finds validation of her faith when people attack Christianity. "The Bible says we'll be attacked." She calls Pullman a "nonsense" writer. But, she loves her brother intensely and she doesn't want his new Christian faith confused.

We may rent it when it comes out so we can talk about the issues brought up. We did this with the Harry Potter movies; rather than go to the theater where we can't talk about the issues, we wait for the video and discuss it.

Our daughter is allowed to read pretty much whatever she wants to read. Sometimes she asks our opinion still, but it's her decision at 14. Our son's reading is restricted because of skill and maturity level. It is my experience that what one reads (as opposed to video) claims a much deeper hold on one's mind and memory. Maybe it's because reading actively engages the imagination where video merely entertains. His Dark Materials could easily confuse young children and plant in them seeds of doubt and even hatred toward the "church". I hope Christian parents consider age and maturity and take the time to discuss the issues brought up in the movie and the books. The faith of our children may be affected if we don't.

Teletubbies
Are teletubbies gay?

Let's get something straight. People watch movies to be entertained, not to engage. Rest assured that if a poll were to be taken of movie goers after having seen "The Golden Compass" and the question were asked "what, if any messages, the movie delivered?" that most viewers would go, "Cool CGI".

I remembered the first time I watched the Matrix. The entire point of the Matrix is to mock the viewers stupidity and do it in such away as to not let the audience in on it, and they exceeded beyond their wildest dreams.

The first time I saw a squidy I laughed. Bowling balls can't fly. Even more hilarious is that nothing can stop on a dime, everything has to de-accelerate, yet the squidies stop on a dime and turn their antenna on the ship.

What fun. The audience the entire time is being played and they don't even know BECAUSE THEY AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION. The audience is just enjoying the cool special effects. Entertainment is deadly, virtual reality is a brain killer.

The average American who goes to see "The Golden Compass" will lump it in with the likes of "Narina" because they look the same and that's all the deeper it gets folks.

To me this whole discussion is paramount to Jerry Falwell accusing the purple teletubby as gay.

Please, neither the five-year watching the teletubby nor the kid watching "The Golden Compass" are concerned about "gay" characters or "the religious message". No, the "Golden Compass" will be judged by one factor alone, was it a cool movie. Finding Nemo could have had an anti-religion message and most people wouldn't know it and wouldn't care, it would still sell as many tickets. Do you know if the people who wrote Finding Nemo were atheists? Does it matter?

And when the audience isn't paying
attention is when the propoganda gets fed into their subconscious. Here's an example: The karate Kid. Must have been the 3rd time I saw the movie before recognized the blatant racist propoganda in the story.

Ralph Maccio, not just Italian, but *swarthy* Italian. Every single one of the antagonists was blond, and I believe most were blue-eyed. Very Aryan.
The bad-guy instructor, also very blond.
All of the bad guys fit the stereotype of the cowardly, hate-filled bully. Association: aryan males with hateful behavior. Emotional reaction; distaste for aryan males.
Girfriend, who couldn't stand the aryan boys... aryan herself. More subtle propoganda.

Mr Miagi is not Japanese; that might be difficult for the audience to reconcile with his philosophy. And what is his philosophy? "Karate for defense only!" Give defeated enemy quarter. Fight only when forced to. Defend the innocent.
The philosophy of the bad guys? Anything to win; the enemy doesn't deserve mercy.
In other words, they flipped the philosophy of America and Japan around! Nobody got it, of course. Consciously. The same subtle propaganda has been used for decades to change our views on race, gender, homosexuality, smoking, nationalism, a host of subjects.


Another example
Star Drek: the Next Germination introduced a species of aliens. They were further expounded upon in Star Drek: Deep Shjt Nine.

They were called the "ferenghi".
They were small, cowardly, misshapen, egotistical, misongynist, and the ultimate capitalists. They were almost universally derided and dismissed.

Let's skip back a few hundred years, to the 19th century. A quiet, nearsighted author writes of his experiences in India... including the native word used to describe the European colonists: ferenghi.

That the authors of the show were using our own ignorance, our willingness to laugh at the stereotypical foibles, doesn't change the fact that the result is a universal derision, a Pavlovian reaction, to European-derived capitalists. In other subtle ways they denigrated Christianity, morality (I mean, come on, having a very human looking alien female marry a bucket of snot??) and many other values. And subtle suggestions become accepted thought after time.
Consider Raiders of the Lost Ark. Big ha-ha funny when Marion, the butch-ish girlfriend of Indy drinks like a man and punches a guy. But made subtle by her reaction to "girl clothes".
Today? Laura Croft, the Librarian, Pirates of the Carribbean, Last Legion... now it's accepted thought that women are two-fisted brawlers... and always have been.
We are at war with Eastasia, and we always have been.

Bible History
For those unfamiliar with the writing of the Bible you can go to a number of websites that can get you started. Let's just put it this way, God did not come down from heaven and write the King James version the day after Jesus died.

Perhaps some of you might be interested to know that Thomas Jefferson rewrote the New Testament. His version would make American Evangelicals demand his scalp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Militant Atheism
Fortunately for him, Pullman is attacking Christianity and not Islam or else he might be worried about "The Golden Fatwa".

Lighten up
I don't care if the movie is anti-Christian or not, I won't be seeing it because it looks like a crappy movie. I saw the trailer this weekend, and it literally had me laughing so hard that tears streamed down my face.

The intro voiceover begins: "There is a world where witches rule the northern skies, where ice bears are the bravest of warriors, and where every human is joined with an animal spirit who is as close to them as their own heart."

Honestly, if you can read that with a straight face, you're a more somber person than I. But the real clincher comes when Sam Elliott (who is awesome) is forced to deliver this line: "I'd hire myself an armored bear."

Atheist or not, this movie is merely ridiculous, not dangerous.

To geek45
I think we can almost all agree that this would be a better place if Islam wasn't around.

life is short
First of all, nobody is suggesting that The Golden Compass be banned. Boycotting is an honorable form of peaceful protest used by folks of all political and philosophical persuasions. What would you say to somebody who refuses to go to church because he doesn't believe in God? Is he a closed-minded bigot? How many atheists and other non-Christians refused to see Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ without, er, seeing it first?

One thing we can all agree on, believer or non-believer alike: Life is short. (The afterlife, on the other hand, is another matter.) Should we live in a bubble, Christian or atheistic? Of course not.

On the other hand, we all make decisions every day on what to spend our precious leisure time. Most of us, it's true, simply want our entertainment to be, well, entertaining. But if we're going to be preached to, and if such preaching insults our intelligence and our beliefs, then most of us will choose something else. Because most of us are not masochists. Just as I don't insist that every atheist must buy a DVD copy of The Passion, please don't tell me that I must shell out $10 to see The Golden Compass before I can choose not to see it.


The Golden Campass
is supposed to "counteract" the Narnia series.

Chruches, synagogues, temples, moasques, all houses of worship and their acolytes can be restrictive. Dig the Taliban.

On the other hand, religion in the West has inspired the great cathedrals of medieval Europe, the eternal literature of Dante and and philosophy at St. Thomas Acquinas, and created the moral force to fight slavery in the 19th C.; Hitler, Stalin, segregation in the 20th C.; and still fight corruption and degredation throughout the world today.

Compass could do well on effects, but if it is really heavy handed and didactic, young people won't want to see it.

et al.
Boy, take an afternoon off to go Christmas shopping and the long knives come out.

Grey Ghost:

"The quotes from the New Testament in his books read almost exactly as the New Testament books they are taken from. Therefore, the New Testament predates 200AD."

Show me the text, in his hand, that proves this and I'll revise my statement to 200 years after Christs' death.

theBaron:

"But the Gospels are all considered to have originated with their respective authors, who were all among the twelve."

Considered by who? The very people who profess to believe that everything in the Bible is true! Big deal. The Mormons believe that Joseph Smith met an angel too. Do you buy that? Jerry Falwell claims to talk to God every day. Do you believe that? Falwell's followers do.

deconbrodi:

All well and good. I said Bible, not individual Scriptures. When Mr. Edwards can show that he is quoting from those textual fragments you refer to, we'll be able to push the date back a little further. But you can't get it all the way back to Christ, and minus that you have hearsay at best, even if it is coming from his supposed followers.

Bur the fact remains that most Christians are using a copy of the Bible that was written over 1000 years after Christ died, and that very few have ever compared the originals, in their original language, to the copy they use in church. So I still say that arguing about a "true faith" or taking issue with the Catholic church on the basis of any given version of the Scriptures is beyond stupid. The least you people could do is come up with a single uniform text you all agree on before you start quoting it to back up your specious arguments about someone else's alleged wrong doings.


grey ghost
"BTW, we do not have any books or manuscripts actually written by Socrates. Does that mean he didn't exist?"

What a load of tripe. Show me where I said Christ didn't exist. I simply said we don't have any of his words in his own hand, and what we do have are second or third hand accounts which, regardless of what age you want to assign to them, cannot be proven to have been written by those they are attributed to. You call it the Gospel of Peter, but can you prove Peter wrote it? Can you prove it was THE Peter in the Bible?

And so we return to faith. Which I don't have a problem with. But it would be nice if you guys would stop acting like the Bible is an undeniable reference for what REALLY happened, with every word, gesture, and action recorded in real living color as it happened and own up to the fact that at the very best, even if you are correct in your faith that John wrote the Gospel of John, etc., all you have are someone else's word on what Christ said and what he meant.

Anti-Iraqi War movies bombing
I think that some columnist from Townhall should discuss the Hollywood flurry of anti-Iraqi War movies that are flopping at the box office.

Burning books
If we go all to pieces every time someone disses our faith, we will be sad and ineffective people.

Christ was called a blasphemer, friend of sinners, a drunk and all sorts of vile things. He did not allow these folks to discourage him.

If you go banning and burning other peoples books and movies, don't be suprised when they come after yours!

If you value liberty, you must allow your neighbor to have his.

justpaul
Second-hand accounts? Hmm, John was Jesus' best friend and one of His first disciples. Seems like a first-hand account to me. He was there to observe the events he recorded. Matthew was also one of Jesus' disciples, there with Him for most of His ministry. First-hand account, again.

Luke was a second-hand account, but historians say he was a first-rate historian himself. They can tell this by the details he put in, particularly, Acts. So far, his details have always proven to be right. Luke was a close companion with Peter first and then Paul. Again, while Luke was not an eyewitness to Jesus' life, he got his account from eyewitnesses. The details he gives to Mary's account indicates he probably knew and interviewed her.

Mark was also a second-hand account, but clearly written from Peter's perspective. We know from other New Testament writings that Mark was Peter's scribe and ministry companion. So, while Mark himself was not a witness to the events, he was getting his account from an eyewitness.

Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written in the AD 60s, within the lifetimes of the eye witnesses.

Moreover, Paul in I Corinthians records a creed, or doxology, concerning Jesus that dates from within 2-3 years of Jesus' death. Paul wrote I Corinthians about AD 54. Paul, of course, was not a witness to Jesus' life, but again, he knew those who had witnessed the events of Jesus' life.

Your assertion that the Bible is legendary material written centuries too late is dead on arrival. Biblical scholars discounted those ideas through real scholarship a long time ago.

The Catholic Church
Is Edwards saying that the Catholic Church is a false church?

for me, it's economic
I try not to give money to people whose philosophies I find personally offensive. That's it.

Aurorawatcher
How well do you remember events that happened 30 years ago and what people said 30 years ago. BTW, how old were the apostles supposed to be when they were with Jesus? If they were 20 years old at 33 A.D. they'ed be what, 53. If they were 50 they'd be 80.(The same critique can be made of the Swift Boat astounding memories after 30-40 years).

Then, one has to account for stories told and retold in groups for 30 years and how the natural human tendency is to embellish and when you can"t remember exactly to invent and to "sell" the story and to "entertain the audience." Such stories told and retold do become myth and legend.

I have also read that Biblical scholars say that none of the disciples wrote the books which bear their names.

This is not to challenge that Jesus never lived and never said anything. It's to challenge the transmission of whatever he did say.

strawmen
Wow, this page has more strawmen than a Kansas cornfield.

Kilowatt: who here is demanding that The Golden Compass be banned, let alone burned? Or are you implying that advising people not to go see this or that movie is the same thing as censorship?

justpaul: who here is claiming that there is loads of scientific evidence that Jesus wrote the New Testament? Not even the most fervent advocate of the Gospels' historicity argues that there is an extent copy of the New Testament in Christ's own hand.

If that is your only standard of proof, why then you ought to disregard most accounts of ancient history. Nobody doubts the accomplishments of Alexander the Great, and yet the earliest accounts of his life were written more than three centuries after his death. Contrary to your assertions, most scholars date the earliest Gospel (Mark) to approximately 70 A.D. -- well within the lifetime of eyewitnesses.

Or for that matter, you should be agitating for the release of every prisoner whose conviction is based on circumstantial evidence (there are far more than any CSI viewer would suppose). In fact, I would bet that you believe all sorts of things to be true for which you have no objective evidence, but rather take on faith or authority.

I know, this is hardly a convincing defense of Christianity, but neither is your position a very effective argument against it. If you'd studied law, you'd know that circumstantial evidence (pace CSI) can be just as powerfully persuasive as the physical variety. There are plenty of people in prison who were convicted entirely on the basis of circumstantial evidence. As for Jesus, perhaps you could start with attorney Lee Sobel's The Case for Christ to get a sense of the other types of proof available, not just for his existence, but his divinity and message.


aurorawatcher
I believe True Liberal has dealt with the gist of your comment, but I'm still struck by your inability to see the obvious. What PROOF do we have that the gospel according to John is in fact the gospel according to JOHN?

Even if you could produce a text written in John's own hand, you'd first have to prove that to be true. Good luck. But if we give you that, you still have a second hand account of what happened after the fact. Ask any detective working on a murder case with more than one eye witness about how people's stories vary based on their own point of view and you should be able to see my point.

Which overlooks entirely the issues of just what the Apostles were trying to do. I know that in certain circles they get a complete pass on their veracity, but were they not trying to start a new religion? Might they not have stretched things just a bit, or maybe downplayed certain things, in order to make that religion more palatable?

Before you say no, please consider all of the other people who claim to have had direct communication with the Divine. Do you take Mohamed at every word? All of the Popes? Joseph Smith? David Koresh?

Dreary and Useless
My mother wanted to give these books to my kids. As any responsible parent does, I read them first. I then threw the dreary, useless things away.

What good can come of exposing our children to a story of whiny, discontented children first wandering aimlessly through a dreary, joyless, loveless world then becoming obsessed with people having holes drilled in their skulls to let the spirits in and then moving on to their ultimate mission to kill God?

Far better that my kids spend their time fighting Voldemort with Harry Potter or Sauron with Frodo and Sam. Far better that they laugh along with Terry Pratchett in Discworld (and read the classic literature that will enable them to get the jokes). Far better that they solve mysteries with Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot.

Life is too short for bad books aimed at promoting ideology. The time would be better spent on my husband's Charlie Brown collection.

exactly
justpaul wrote: "Ask any detective working on a murder case with more than one eye witness [sic] about how people's stories vary based on their own point of view and you should be able to see my point."

Exactly!

2 reasons this resonates:

First, all sorts of things are proved without physical evidence, including murder convictions. I'm not sure that anything would satisfy your standard of proof, short of a videotape. (And even those can be faked.)

Second, it does depend on your point of view. It seems to me that you are disinclined to believe in Christianity for reasons other than its lack of hard physical evidence. Your obsession with whether each word of the Gospels was actually recorded contemporaneously leads me to believe that you grew up among Christian fundamentalist types. I further suspect that, like many pugnacious atheists, you had bad experiences with Christians. Probably Christians of the stereotypically smug, judgmental variety.

I, on the other hand, have encountered far more smugness and judgmentalism from so-called liberals than from any Christians of my acquaintance, so perhaps that is why I am not so harshly disposed toward Christians as you seem to be.

Of course the foundation for Christianity is faith. It even says so in the Gospels (whether or not we can prove Jesus actually said it). I honestly believe that liberalism (in the contemporary American sense) is a religion, too, with its own set of irrational tenets that must be taken on faith. Secular humanism ultimately has no more rational basis than any other religion.

I don't know when faith became a bad word (like liberal). Man cannot live by reason, or faith, alone. I've made my peace with that. I suggest you do, too.


Actually, it's love
The Foundation of Christianity is love. Love is manifest in a Father who would send His son to die for your sins and mine. Love is manifest in a virgin that puts the Father's will before her own. Love is manifest in a Christ who is the ruler of the world, and teaches us that to have life we must give up life.

Faith is important, but Faith is born out of love. It says so over and over in the Bible. In Corinthians 1, Paul emphatically states that of faith, hope and love, love is the greatest. James explains that faith without works (of mercy, charity and love) is dead.

Love is the foundation of Christianity. Without love there cannot be faith.

Thanks, Jeff
Also Aurora, Mother, Cato; a lot of fine discussion.

Cato
"It seems to me that you are disinclined to believe in Christianity for reasons other than its lack of hard physical evidence."

You are directing this to justpaul and not me, but I would answer that no matter how much hard evidence might exist for Zeus and the other Greek gods, I would never believe in them, because it's such a stupid thing to believe. I imagine justpaul feels the same about Christianity.

As for my experiences with Christians and leftists, they have been about the same. Leftists have more power, though, even though they don't believe it.

As Usual
Athiestic crap, badly written, yet given fanfare, a movie cast with a multitude of Hollywood stars, and millions of dollars in advertising to sell this athiestic crap. It will probably flop, and then the Hollywood set will be looking for the next God trashing book to turn into a movie. Pathetic.

What one belives in
If modern American's believed in Zeus and the Roman pantheon of God's, Hollywood would be producing movies to debunk them, even Dionysus, as they do not want to have any moral standard whatsoever out there to limit their activities.

A lofty and blasphemous goal.
I've read all three books and read several pieces on the author's website.

His intentions are clear. This story is about killing God - not just any generic god, but capital 'G' God, the Christian God.

The fact that this man continues to draw breath is a testament to the mercy and goodness of this God whom he so violently hates.

However I agree that boycott's aren't very useful. All they do is draw more attention to it and make more people want to see it.


Islam
We live in the UK, and our 11 year old's class is reading the book and going to the movie.

We have not signed the permission slip for him to go to the movie, one because we don't feel inclined to give £5 to this anti-Christian venture. And secondly, we are amazed that this subject is even brought up in schools-- as if this were the case of an anti-Muslim subject (or any other religion, for that matter) being taught, it would never be allowed to even be mentioned in the schools. We all know what the Muslims would do (and make sure you don't name your teddy bear "Muhammed"...).

alex

Just Paul
You seemed obsessed with the Bible being 100% accurate historically when historians cannot agree about what happened during the VietNam war or even the first Iraqi war.

As more archaeological artifacts are found, much is verified. Also writings by non-Christians of that time correspond.

I don't need to hint at it
I'll be direct about it.

Christianity is just as big a load as the rest of the world's religions. Not un-including those self-indulgent neo-pagans and self-applauding aitheists that are just as smug as the rest of those religious types. I don't believe in anything, but I don't disbelieve the possibility that I could be wrong. This self-righteous behavior on both sides of the fence just PROVES that religion is bunk. It is corrupting, fallacious, and the true principles are utterly lost as soon as someone questions you. Not very humble are we?

Did Jesus try to smite people who called him a false prophet? Hell no.
Why are you people raging out of your back-end when someone writes a book that opposes your beliefs, but when CS Lewis writes an entire series glorifying Christian history (glorifying it A LOT more than it deserves) you're all so willing to try and make the world listen.

The public consensus is reciprocal. YOU don't have to see the movie. YOU don't have to believe in its concepts. You just have to deal with it, and get on with your life.

This "Paul Edwards" is saying that Pullman is right. The Church is destitute, corrupt, and evil. However, he's saying that it shouldn't be. HELLO. That's what the book is ABOUT. You've denied and debunked nothing. This article sucks. It's just another media gimmick to bring attention to something he doesn't like. Silly conservative, you're a hypocrit.

Packrat
That's a load and you know it.

Don't create lies just to defy someone. It's pathetic and incredulous.

MOVIE RAVAGE
"Golden Compass" is a movie; ergo, it is a commercial product of relatively short term market duration designed and developed to produce enough money to make a profit. The IMDB estimate is $150,000,000. That is one hundred fifty million dollars sunk-wagered-risked into the complexities of the film business. The producers have yet to pay advertising, promotions, and theater rentals to sell this product. The accumulated cost after all the bands hoopla, television and media promotions and star travel could be well over two hundred fifty million dollars. The movie stars Kiss of Death Kidman which is a hint that the film will have difficulty at the box office. The production company will batch manufacture several million copies of the DVD which will be profitable only if the initial release proves to be profitable. Aftermarket international sales revenues offer few guarantees for movies that fail from the initial release. New Line Cinema is a private corporation so its financial stake in this film is difficult to ascertain but whoever financed this movie is quite likely lighting novenas in “hope” that the ravage of spiritual revenge does not fall on the backers at CitiBank, Chase, and Merrill Lynch.



What Part SS

What part? that historians can't agree?

That Josephius and others wrote things that collaborated the existence of Pontius Pilate or John the Baptist?

Oh dear
Pullman's attempt to put his atheism into his fantasy books makes them as dull and preachy a read as C S Lewis' Narnia drivel. Frankly I prefer there to be a separation of church (including the atheist and liberal churches) and fantasy in my fantasy reading. Give me Tolkein or Rowling any day.

Great post, Mr. Edwards
Looks like the tone of your article set the tone of the comments that followed, as these were some of the most thoughtful, articulate comments I've seen on TH in my short time here.

for Deornwulf
Deornwulf writes: "Unfortunately, the faith of adolescents and teens is not always strong enough to chance such an encounter with the vile Pullman heaps on the concept of believing in God."

If you believe you must shelter your children from "dangerous" ideas rather than preparing them to confront and debate those ideas, then you have not raised your children properly.

Because you can't shelter them. In schools and in their neighborhoods they are going to meet Jewish children and Muslim children and children of atheist parents. They're going to see different religions portrayed on TV too.

America is a land of many faiths, and if you're not raising your children to welcome such a land and want to be a part of it, you're not raising them properly.

You can take your family and flee to some ultra-conservative small town in which everybody thinks and talks just like you do. But then don't hope that your children will have a brighter future, with broader horizons, than you, able to function in the broader world out there. They will end up exactly like you, carbon copies of you. If that's what you want for your children, then there are some deeper psychological motives here that you should look into.

Let's all...
go out and buy the series of books, so we can put more money in Pullman's pockets. Give him "notoriety." Then he can pollute the minds of more children whose teachers make it "mandatory" reading. This doesn't make sense at all. I disagree with benefitting a person who is pushing something that is harmful to the minds of my children! It would be like saying "Let's go find a drug pusher and buy some marijuana and let our kids try it to see what effect it has on them!" Then we will discuss the mind altering effects.

Why waste money on books that shouldn't have been published in the first place, due to lack of readability and interest-captivity. Hollyweird is just trying to find another money-maker such as the HP fantasy series and this is NOT! I'm not surprised at one of the actors involved in this movie, she still has her "Eyes Wide Shut!"

Peace-nik, Humanist Christianity
The church has adopted a peace-nik stance when attacked by the Pharasees and Prophets of Baal. The church has been pushed into the closet gleefully singing "all you need is love". The church has claimed this is biblical. It is not!

Jesus and the Prophets trashed the Pharasees and the profits of Baal with the truth. It is biblically Christian to attack those who lead people away from Jesus. It is time we do the same to our Propphets of Baal as Jesus and the Prophets did to theirs.

Why give Pullman our money???
This is an intentional attack on Christianity. Why should we reward this man for an anti-Christian message. Personally, I'd rather see that my money speaks by encouraging movie makers to make better family movies, not venture into new ways to chip away at Christianity. Money can speak very loudly. For anyone seriously considering using these books as a teaching tool with their kids, I would say please, please, get them from the library (if they already have them) or buy one of the books used, but make sure that not one dime makes it's way back to the author.

I agree with Momof5
Why feed our enemies???

Ditto Fred
I'll be glad if the attention the movie gets is about how no one is paying to see it.

And the "Golden Fatwa' line - priceless! HaHaHaHaHa.......infinity.

Nearly all the movies put out are in some way anti-Christian but wrapping them up for children in a fantasy world of computer animation is a cheesy, cheap shot.

Nebulous rant-

Watch "The Greatest Story Ever Told" or Ben Hur and have your tear ducts well up with emotion as you sit in your chair unable to comprehend the love of God to sacrifice his son for every one of us - then watch (for free) something like the Golden Compass and walk away feeling dirty that you don't give a rip that Jesus took the nails & the spear for you and you deny his sacrifice and reject his gift and throw his love for you back in his face.

Yet there he always is, rooting for you to change and become his son or daughter that he may share eternity with you and give you every blessing you ask for. Nothing you can do. No crime you've committed, no action, no words, nothing can separate you from the love of God.

Get that from your golden fantasy compass.

SteveL
While I know what you are saying about your kids being Americans exposed to everything continually, I personally believe that while your kids are kids, parents have to protect them from all kinds of things, including worldly philosophies that are abhorent to us.

However, when the child grows up and leaves the nest - they can choose for themselves what they will see and not see. The foundation the parents built for the child should make him or her more critical of new thoughts & ideas. I know its nearly an impossible task to keep our kids from anything we adults find objectionable, but we should strive for it. A soul hangs in the balance.


What's So Hard To Understand?
Boy! This article has really brought the Godless liberals out in force, hasn't it? And why? Because they understand it to be a potential weapon against the souls of little, future adults... which is what they desire.

This movie is based on a book that was openly avowed to be the "anti-Narnia" by the author, a man who despises all Christian concepts of decency and moral responsibility. Now, utilizing the sympathetic trend of modern Hollywood, this travesty is presented to children as a tool of their corruption. It is a movie about moral depravity which is wrapped in the guise of a children's fantasy. It is the cinematic equivalent of a predator enticing children into his car with candy.

Children are not little adults. When they witness scenes of child sex, graphic violence or professional propaganda aimed at their civilization's core beliefs, they are invariably influenced by it. As children, they are dependent on adults for moral guidance into their future lives. When that supervision is lacking- or when evil exploiters seek to overthrow it- consequences result.

That is why this movie should be forbidden to children by Christian parents. It is a thing born of evil and dedicated to the furtherance of evil as a way of life. When those children are grown and have matured into full self-awareness, THEN they can watch and evaluate such things... if they're so inclined. Not before.

Garbage in... Garbage out..
I have no time to waste on known garbage. I have no interest in inflicting myself with known garbage.
Will I be a better person for having read this or seen this? I think not.
So why would I want to...
Does this thought carry on to watching Debbie does Dallas, or what ever the butcher movie of the month is?

justpaul...
what is moronic about the idea of a True Church? And what difference does it make which version of the Bible I use? With very few exceptions, all the versions of the Bible I've read (and there have been several) have said the same thing, conveyed the same message: the sinfulness of man and the fallen state of creation; God's plan for salvation, realized in the person and work of Jesus Christ; the hopelessness of trying to please God by "being good;" and the hope brought to mankind by the Gospel.
As for your assertion that animals have done acts of compassion, I'm not sure what you mean by that, unless you are talking about stories we've all heard of animals who heroically saved the lives of their owners, often by the sacrifice of their own lives. But in order to consider such acts as good works, they must be given freely and selflessly; I don't know that you can prove that such acts by animals are more than instinctive in nature; however, the Lord can and does act through means other than humans, so your example is hardly a refutation of my argument.
As to quoting the Bible as a standard of morality, I would rather go by what the Bible says than by what the likes of say, Karl Marx or Josef Stalin or Mao have said and written. We've all seen what their philosophies wrought. If the Bible is not your standard, then what is?

Very good threads (plus) my take
Please see my blog "Wasted Talents" for details.

(I was so thrilled by this thread that I've created a TH blog to express myself more fully than 2000 characters would allow.)

GeorgiaGal
Just to point out -- Lewis was not a Roman Catholic! In fact, JRR Tolkein who reportedly was instrumental in Lewis abandoning atheism for Christianity was disappointed when Lewis chose to affiliate with the Church of England. Both of them and some of the other Inklings wrote about the disagreement between the two.

So your assertion that Narnia is some sort of Roman Catholic treatise -- check your facts!

justpaul, proud liberal
You do realize that well-trained scholars have studied the New Testament for a long time? My assertions were based upon the most-reliable recent scholarship. Your assertions are based upon presuppositions that aren't even valid.

I checked my facts against the scholars. What did you do, state an opinion?

Actually, proud lib, oral histories are considered remarkably reliable, especially when the people involved believe that what they are transmitting is of utmost importance -- as the disciples did. Empirical research on oral histories has validated their reliability within the lifetime of eye witnesses. Also, as a journalist, I've validated the 50-year-old memories of some of our older citizens against newspaper accounts of the events I was interviewing them on and found a high degree of memory for accurate detail. Most of the histories we have were written decades after the events they record. Alexander the Great's biography was written 600 years after his death. Why would that be considered more valid than the New Testament.

And, justpaul, I'm going to say this one more time. John and Matthew were eye witnesses. The details they provide, for example, indicate they saw the events. People who actually study the texts under discussion aren't uncomfortable with that. But, of course, your opinion trumps their scholarship. What are your qualifications?

Book-burning, banning? Huh?
Nobody is suggesting, as far as I've read, that we burn or ban Pullman's books. We simply advocate for parents to be wary of them. Read them yourselves (as I did)and decide if your child should be exposed to it. If my 14-year-old wanted to read the books, I wouldn't try to stop her. She has sufficient maturity level and sophistocation to exercise her reason in determining, as I did, the stupidity of Pullman's arguments. My 8-year-old, however, deserves and needs his parents' protection for ideas he's not ready to confront. That'll change in 5-7 years.

Not allowing your children to read poorly written propaganda is not the same as banning or burning books. We have the right to bring up our children with faith and respect for God. You may disagree, but as they are not your children, your opinion is just your opinion.

Don'tTreadonMe
I agree with you that "The Golden Compass" might have negative teaching value in terms of true Chrstian theology, but there is an age appropriateness factor that each parent must weigh for themselves.

My daughter has suggested that our church youth group (my husband and I are the adult sponsors) might want to go to the movie for just that reason. The kids in question are 13-18 years old (and my husband who's 45 -- ha ha) and quite able to process the themes of the books. They'll probably recognize the atheist content in comparison to their faith.

However, young children are not so astute. They internalize themes without even realizing it. This is why parents must be the ones in charge of their intellectual stimulation.

ah...it's the choice that matters
Folks...I've had the pleasure of being read and taught, from the Bible, the Torah, Talmud, Bahgivad Gita, Confuscious, Shakespeare, Gibran and Q'uran and the original spiritual values of my native American grandmothers.
And I simply read Christopher Hitchens or other tomes by truly evil people simply out of curiosity and interest. Just as I have Asimov and Heinlein.
So WHAT if the Golden Compass is anti Christian?
It's only ONE movie out of a myriad of PRO Christian or pro deist films.
Hollywood is hardly the place anyone should go for their frame of reference.
But the real blessing to us all is CHOICES.
The choice to be Christian or NOT, study Christianity or NOT. Read about OTHER religions and whether to believe or NOT.
Personally, I believe in LOVE. It's never failed me before. Never...on love, Paul...and Almustafa were absolutely right.

You Do Know Who Don Wildmon Is, ...
... Don't You? He once accused Mighty Mouse of promoting cocaine use in a saturday-morning cartoon show. His only basis? Because it was at the time being runned by Ralph Bakshi, the director of the X-Rated "Fritz The Cat".
Please, if Philip Pullman wants to kill God, let him. He has the right. It's a free country after all. And Your all free to boycott him however you want, because it's a free country.

Scripture and apostate churchianity
There are many great posts on this thread today. Congratulations on a splendid effort.

I was an atheist/skeptic for fourteen years as a young adult. Though a Christian now, I have to admit that there is very little of “the real thing” to be found anywhere, even here in the buckle of the Bible belt, the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. The gradual apostasy of early Christianity is the greatest tragedy of the ages by far. It formed the basis for my former atheism and that of many, many others to this day, probably including the author of the above books.

None of us (and particularly you skeptics) should be willing to take Satan’s bogus churchy nonsense as genuine Christianity even though it seems to be omnipresent and omnipotent in the sense of exercising total control over how Christianity is defined. There is no benefit, only harm, in allowing ourselves to be influenced by the theological apostasy and effeminate silliness one finds on every hand in the “church.” By hanging around and getting involved with those places of immense confusion, many people have lost whatever genuine faith they may have had before. Or they have become convinced that they are real Christians when, biblically speaking, they are greatly deceived in the matter, a tragedy with eternal consequences to be sure.


Scripture as valid source of rel. info.
As to the problem of Scripture, the difficulty is not with the quality and reliability of the modern, scholarly Greek manuscript compilations which are amazingly excellent, but rather with the translators who can be a tad dishonest at times--to put it mildly. We are all better off learning baby NT Greek in order to be able to do our own translation of crucial verses during our study of the Scriptures.

I consider the Bible to be “inspired” of God because it makes tremendously more sense when intelligently exegeted than any other claimed theological source that I have ever read. It is not crucial to me to be certain precisely who wrote the various books or exactly when they were written because that is entirely secondary to the Bible’s self-validation as the only source of a sane understanding of God and our possible relationships with Him. Thus, it is the only reliable guide to the ultimate spiritual principle of life by which we must live if we would be truly happy. In the final analysis, nothing else really matters.

hi ColinCody
That depends on how Christianity has influenced the power of the Bible or wielded it against the unwilling to believe.
There is as much blood and cruelty in the history of Christianity as that of some avowed atheists. In very recent history too.
Many young people are BORN into religious homes. Choosing their own path isn't always an option and many are shoved from it cruelly by those bent on power.
However, to be fair, those Christians who are gentle and respective as well as reflective on the constancy of learning more and more can be inspired.
The Bible isn't a done deal, nor the final word.
It flowers and flourishes best where there is openness to others who are different and equally invested in learning and understanding.
It's a foundation, from which a house is still forming for all of us to dwell in. With all our diversity, flaws, wonder and curiosity that Creation gave us.

Religious extremism -- bad for America
I find religious fundamentalists of all kinds, Christian included, to be exceedingly unpleasant people. I'll take Hollywood and indie filmmakers over these nerds anyday. Get a life, Iris, Alex and the rest of you.

Dear SS
With all due respect(!), you are one sick and hate-filled individual. If you can characterize the wish of people for common decency with children in such a manner, then you are unfit for human society on any level... and with children in particular.

HAH
No. That is biased and self-righteous. Don't condescend me, YOU are the one taking away the rights and opportunities for children. There is plenty of common decency in being anti-religion, just as much as pro-religion. YOU are just insecure in the longevity of your religion, and it's hilarious.

When atheists run the show...
Atheist government track record, Stalin's Russia and Mao's China. Millions murdered or destroyed. Atheists as an organized group are bigger fools than Xtians.
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