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Monday, October 08, 2007
Paul  Edwards :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who Makes Christians?
by Paul Edwards
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Outreach Magazine is out with its list of the 100 Largest U.S. Churches for 2007. Of course, no such list appears anywhere in scripture. While it certainly could be argued that numbers mattered to the New Testament church (indicated by their citation in the book of Acts), churches in the New Testament are nowhere ranked in terms of their numbers.

Can you imagine any of the inspired writers of the New Testament ranking the church at Ephesus above the church at Philippi, and Philippi above the church at Thessalonica based solely on how many people were showing up each week? It is clear what the Apostles found most noteworthy in the New Testament churches: the level of faith, hope and love at work in each of these assemblies (see, for example, Col. 1: 3-6).

Accompanying this year’s list of America’s largest churches was a piece by Kem Meyer, the communications director at Granger Community Church in Granger, Indiana. Titled Top Ten Things You Should Know About Unchurched People If You Want Them to Hear What You are Saying, it included the following insights: “Talk about what makes life better for the guest”; “People aren’t motivated by your [the church’s] need. They are motivated by theirs”; “People relate when you talk about them or people like them.” In other words, the success of the church depends upon motivating unregenerate people to join your cause by enticing them with how satisfying and fulfilling it can be, in the same way marketers try and sell us cars and computers and televisions and vacations.

Could anything be further from a true presentation of the gospel?

Jesus said, “If any one would be my disciple he must first deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Matt. 16:24). Motivating people by appealing to their felt needs is like forcing a square peg into the round hole of Jesus’ call to abandon ourselves for His sake and the sake of the gospel.

Ms. Meyer also suggests we have to be careful in our communication with the unchurched—careful not to give the impression that “they aren’t OK where they’re at and they’re not as good as they should be.” Really? I thought the whole premise of the gospel was that I’m not OK and you’re not OK and that’s why we needed the gospel in the first place.

So to reach the unchurched the best thing to do is to not tell them what God’s word says about their sinful condition, the plight they are in and the wrath they are under—as Paul did in the first three chapters of Romans?

The gospel saves from a far greater calamity than a dull, unfulfilled life.

But Ms. Meyer was not done assaulting my Christian sensibilities. She suggested: “People feel left out and frustrated when you use insider’s language,” and remarked that, “People aren’t impressed with your theological vocabulary and holy dialect.” In other words, a sure-fire way to guarantee no unchurched person will ever become churched is to quote scripture to them. (After all, if scripture isn’t “theological vocabulary” and “holy dialect,” what is?)

And yet, it is the word of God that convicts us of our sin and brings us to saving faith. Consider these few key passages: “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17); “It pleased God by the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe” (1 Cor. 1:21); “My speech and my preaching were not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power” (1 Cor. 2:4-5).

There is a reason the unchurched are not impressed by our theological vocabulary and our holy dialect. It’s not because they don’t understand it. It’s because they can’t.

Scripture is clear that “the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14). For the sake of the unchurched and the glory of God, we have to reckon with the biblical testimony that apart from Christ human beings are “dead in trespasses and sins” with minds blinded by the god of this world so that we cannot see “the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 4:4). And this spiritual blindness will remain until the God of sovereign grace, who in the beginning said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” makes His light shine in our hearts to give us the “light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6).

The church has been called to communicate a message that, short of a miracle of the Spirit of God, is a “stumbling block” to unbelievers. However, rather than shrink back from proclaiming this message based on perceived “success,” we must be bold to declare the wonders of the Cross and leave the opening of hearts to the Author of the word.

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

It’s not our creative packaging of the message that causes an unchurched person to truly hear. It’s not our words, our Power Point presentation, the lighting in the room, or the professional signage throughout the building. It is the Spirit of God working through the word of God that produces a response from those who otherwise couldn’t care less about what we are saying. Ms. Meyer’s list betrays a total dependence on human ingenuity to accomplish what only God can accomplish.

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About The Author

Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edward Program and a pastor. His program is heard daily on WLQV in Detroit and on godandculture.com

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This is why God never called
A woman to preach.

"Ms. Meyer also suggests we have to be careful in our communication with the unchurched—careful not to give the impression that “they aren’t OK where they’re at and they’re not as good as they should be."


The Christian Faith would never have made it past the 1st century if the men of God had spoke as this silly woman suggests.

Jesus Christ would have been welcomed into the religious world of that day and not Crucified.

I agree
with what Paul Edwards is saying but I still don't understand the title.

People like Ms Meyer are trying to turn the Christian Church into one more 'feel good', PC institution.

treasonous republicans
Can't be too easy, you got it wrong (see the 1 Cor 1:21 quote cited in the article).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

It is God who makes Christians. Not the devil. And not poor misinformed church folk like Ms. Meyer.

Have a lovely day. If you're not a Christian, please don't turn your back on Christ just because a few of us dimwitted followers get it wrong (my apologies).

Ms. Meyer has a half-valid point
Nothing wrong with quoting scripture -- I do it myself A LOT. I have a whole blog filled with scripture. However, it's a good idea to avoid "church words" when talking with the unchurched. Non-Christians think "faith" (for example) is akin to a belief in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. If you use that word without discussing the meaning, you've lost your audience. I work at an extremely secular social service agency and have found that my coworkers are much more likely to engage in conversation concerning faith with me when they understand what I am talking about.

All the rest of Edwards' points were excellent. Nobody ever came to salvation by being told they were perfect in every way. We're all sinners and until we know that about ourselves, we can't give our sin to Jesus and get rid of it ourselves. That's the whole point of the gospel and, if you bother to read it, you very quickly find out that Jesus and the apostles didn't preach "I'm okay, you're okay." Jesus preached "I'm okay, but you aren't." Paul (and the others) preached "there is nothing good that lives inside me except that which comes from God."

I'm sure there are ecclesiastic organizations being built around people who don't think they're sinners by people who have no intention of telling them that they're sinners, but you can't call them churches. We don't get to define the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ. He was given that privilege by God and if we want to enter in, we'd best do it by the rules He's laid out. It's not about what we mere humans want. To me that's a relief, because I figure a omnipotent, omnipresent, omiscient Deity is far more intelligent and wise than His mere creation. That would be me. And, all the rest of you sinners.

Not By Our Actions

I was an atheist for 40 years, until God came and got me. During that period rarely would I go to church. Only the cajoling of my parents to attend for a special occasion such as Father’s Day would get me there.

I hated going to a church service. The message was always about going to hell. Couldn’t they preach on anything else? What gloom and doom, get me out of there.

After being saved and committing to Christ, the message I heard was completely different. It was not about hell and sin. It was about living the best life possible in Christ. The preacher hadn’t changed. The building was still the same. The same people were still in attendance. What changed was me! My wife had the same experience and observations.

Man’s activities do not convince a person to become a Christian anymore than we can work our way to salvation. While accepting Jesus is still our decision, only God brings us to Him. This is seen by these two verses:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Treasonous Whatever
Ha! Ha!Ha!Ha! That was funny.Can you say brainwashed.I think someone has used a whole box of tide in your head.

Large Churches
For the most part large churches grow by attracting Christians from other churches, in church lingo"rearranging Chairs" and not by converting sinners.The Bible commands us to "go and make disciples of all men". Discipleship takes place in a one on one environment or in small groups. Never possible in a Mega Church. I attend a small church (about 150 attendance). We all know each other and each others needs and are able to reach out to each other. How can that be possible when there are 10,000 at a service. As Christians we are to "serve one another" that I think is possible only in a small group.

Well .... yes and no
Thanks aurorawatcher for pointing out the church-speak problem that some Christians have. We, as Christians MUST know who our audience is. I'm not talking about wearing the proverbial mask. I'm talking about Paul and what he said in I Corinthians 19-23: "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

No, we don't water down the gospel, but we have to do a better job of reaching people and loving the right where they are. I've yet to meet a person who came to Christ as the result of some street preacher yelling "Turn or burn."

Oldred
Again, yes and no. I agree that life happens best in the community and fellowship of other believers and that it is not possible in a group the size of 10,000. However, as one who attends a church on that list, I can tell you that I personally know about 100 to 150 people at my church. And I KNOW, in a small group setting, about 20.

I don't claim to have any type of sole posession of how "church" is supposed to be done right. I mean, are any of the churches around today functioning as an Acts 2:42 church? And operating JUST the way churches were running way back then?

The problem as I see it is that small churches and the people who attend them, will get this pious attitude about big churches and think that they are only tickling peoples ears. And large churches will think that the preaching at small churches can't be all that good or they would be growing. Neither of those attitudes does any good to serve the larger problem of seeking and saving the lost.

A different gospel…

Mr. Edwards, thank you for addressing one of the great needs of today’s church. We like to think that we know better than the Scriptures; we have given over the old gospel of a sovereign God for a man-centered gospel that appeals to men rather than humble him in the dust before Jehovah.

Thank you for the verse from Mr. Wesley. His Arminianism is no where to be found in it. If God did not make Christians, then there would be none.



Sharing faith
When I worked in a factory, people asked me about what I believed. Then I had to back it up with my life. (12 hour swing shift shows the true self quickly). They saw me on good times and bad times when I would have to apologize for my words or actions. They opened up still because I owned up to my faults and they asked me to speak to them in a bar after work on a couple of occassions. Sometimes reaching the lost is going to a place where they are comfortable and you are uncomfortable. I am greatly encouraged by many of the posts here.

Big Church Small Church
I also go to a church on the list, McLean Bible, to be specific.

I can tell you the word is not watered down there, though some think it can be. I think Lon does a great job of striking an appropriate balance.

The size can be an issue, 10,500 attending weekly is a lot, and it can be difficult to get to know people if you just come and go. But when you get involved, you become as close as at small churches.

As to language, I agree with Aurora. It is important to limit the "Christianese" when exlpaining it all. It is more than possible to explain all Christ did and not use the word "sanctified." (Not to say this is not a good word, but that it throws many folk.)

Oldred writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 200
"Large Churches
For the most part large churches grow by attracting Christians from other churches, in church lingo"rearranging Chairs "

In some church's lingo "stealing sheep"

Actually, as there are hundreds of churches teaching a wide variety of doctrines. How do you know which church to join? Is Christ divided? Its like the song says: "Moma told me, better shop around".

A distinction to be made
I could be wrong, but I think Pastor Edwards' article consistently blurs the line between and the actions that we can take to help people to be in a position to hear God's word, and the commitment that one makes having heard and being moved by God's word.

The first can be discussed like marketing. But the second must be discussed as a spritual matter.

One is not about to take up their cross and follow Jesus if one has not heard his message -short of a true spiritual miracle.

Smart marketing is fine, as long as the central message is not lost - as is true in our mainline churches, which also are pretty bad at marketing.

FROG / Asking the RIGHT questions!


FROG: “I don't claim to have any type of sole posession of how "church" is supposed to be done right.”


Not sole possession; it is in possession of everyone who has access to a Bible. God told us how His church is supposed to be done right.


From Scripture we can see how the Lord’s church was organized, with deacons and elders and preachers and members. From Scripture we can know how to worship properly. From Scripture we can discover 1) when to attend worship services, 2) when to partake of the Lord’s Supper, and 3) when to give freely as we have been prospered (first day of every week for all 3). From Scripture we can learn what kind of activities the Lord’s church is Authorized by God to participate in. From Scripture we know how to resolve disputes among brethren, and how to discipline those who fall into sin, and to withdraw from those who will not repent.


All of these things and many more are given to us in Scripture. God’s Word explains very well how church is supposed to be done right! :-)




~~~




FROG: “I mean, are any of the churches around today functioning as an Acts 2:42 church?”

Yes. YES. YES!!!


Man, did you ever ask the RIGHT question!


There ARE churches around today that function according to God’s Word in the Bible, in all things. If the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and it accurately portrays what Christians did (and didn’t do) according to direct command, example or necessary inference, there are churches that follow God’s Word in the Bible and conduct themselves accordingly, because His Word is the final Authority in ALL things.


There are churches that “do it right” according to His Word, that do things HIS way, with book, chapter and verse for all of their practices and beliefs. This is much different from churches that do things according to the wisdom and traditions of men, things which cannot be reconciled with God’s Word in the Bible…


Seek, and ye shall find!!!

some random thoughts
Why do so many Christians think their size church is the best way to worship God?

If we Christians "go and make disciples" (not just converts) and love one another so that others will know that we are Christians, we won't have to worry about empty churches.

Why do we have to forgo intelligent religious discussion including 'lingo.' You don't see other intellectual pursuits abandoning perfectly good words. We might do better to educate rather than resort to 4th grade vocabulary.

wally / Also asking the right questions!
wally: “Actually, as there are hundreds of churches teaching a wide variety of doctrines.”


This has always been a problem, since the 1st century (e.g., Revelation chapters 2 & 3).


When two doctrines are in conflict, it's possible that they are both wrong, but they *cannot* both be right. God’s Word does not contradict itself; any doctrine must be reconcilable with ALL of God’s Word on a given subject. If we cannot harmonize a practice or belief with all of His Word, then we must reject that teaching.


If men would do this one simple thing, there would not be NEARLY so much Christian division.



~~~



wally: “How do you know which church to join?”


Much confusion might be eliminated if we did not look at it from the wrong end of the telescope. People do not (cannot) “join” the Lord’s church. We can be “added to” His church if we accept Him on His terms. There is a difference between “joining a church" and being “added to” the Lord’s church.


It is not about “church shopping” or “joining the church of your choice”; that could not be more backwards, unless we are looking to join a social club. It is about finding, through as much effort and investigation as necessary, a church that matches the church you read about in your Bible.


Ask the hard questions. If someone tells you there are no churches today like the one you read about in your Bible, that no one does things that way anymore, you have just spoken to a false teacher; that will probably happen a lot. Keep looking.



~~~



wally: “Is Christ divided?”


Certainly not!



~~~



wally: “Its like the song says: ‘Moma told me, better shop around’ ”


To “shop” implies selecting based on what appeals to us. This is the broad path; there are many who follow it, and it leads to one place.


There is another path, a narrow one; it leads to a better place, and I encourage EVERYONE to search for it…



Great Article
and very true. The word of God is foolishness to the unbeliever but it is salvation to those who believe. There is no way for anyone to be saved except to preach Christ & Him crucified. To be saved, you fist must know who you are, a lost sinner, & who Jesus is, our lord & Savior. Thank you for a well thought out, factual article.

Doctrines in conflict
Sometimes doctrine can be in conflict without necessarily being right or wrong.

I find support in Scriptures for both infant and believers baptism and infant dedication.

Some denominations will only recognize baptism without dedication. Others recognize only believers.

Is baptism doctrinal? Certainly. Can Christians disagree? Yes. Are they wrong (heretical)? No.

For a long time, I have envision the great doctrinal quiz in heaven. When we have made an error in doctrine, we must sit down. When the quiz is over, only Jesus is still standing.

Knowledge of Sin
Didn't anyone notice the misquoting of scripture by the author?

It's Theos, not Kristos. The word of "God" not the "word of Christ."

It's the entire Bible that Paul was speaking of, not just the words of Christ when he said:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

"for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin."Romans 3:20b

And Peter said,
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."Acts 3:19

How shall a generation that does not know it sins be led to repentance? Their sins are not only theirs but belong to those who do not warn them for the word of God says:

"Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."Ezekiel 3:20

The non-sacrificial laws of the Old Testament apply today. Preach them and watch the harvest of new believers come to Jesus for "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."Acts 4:12b

It's really
The Cross. Many churches have strayed away from that central point.
My husband preaches every few weeks at our church, and he's been burdened with this, and his last couple have been on that theme..The Cross, The Cross.
We don't need to worry about church speak when
the Cross is preached, the Holy Spirit will draw
the ones He chooses to hear. It's up to us to pray, and witness by word and deed in and out of the Church building.
The humble little church we attend is crowded if
there are 20 in attendance but we have a man of God leading us, a man of prayer and because of him we are a praying church.
My husband and I attended a huge church in S.C.
while living there. The preacher was dynamic,
he didn't tickle anyone's ears. The ministry
is fantastic. It's really too big for us even though we enjoyed it, and it ministered to us during a difficult time. We felt lost in the shuffle among so many people since we weren't
there long enough to join anything. We much prefer our humble little church where we do know
everyone.

Scott and randomthoughts
Scott, you give the answer "3" to all three of the questions you posed. I would ask for more information on the partaking of the Lord's supper. I attended one church many years ago, Calvary Chapel South Bay with Steve Mays, that served communion every few months or so. (Back then, we had Sunday services of, I would guess, 300 to 400. Now that church is now 29 on the list at over 10,000, BTW Steve Mays has an incredible testimony). The church I now attend has communion at every Sunday service. However, from my reading of Acts, the apostles went from house to house breaking bread daily. Where did the weekly tradition come in.

randomthoughts,
When I talk about "church speak," I'm talking about when someone uses words and phrases that the secular individual might find peculiar. My wife, God bless her, doesn't seem to understand that some find it peculiar for her to be talking about a particular church service and how the spirit moved her in a distinct and particular way. I fully understand her, but saying something like that to an unchurched co-worker can sometimes puzzle the listener. I'm not saying to dumb down what you say. Just that we need to be cognizant of who our target audience is.

It's really
The Cross. Many churches have strayed away from that central point.
My husband preaches every few weeks at our church, and he's been burdened with this, and his last couple have been on that theme..The Cross, The Cross.
We don't need to worry about church speak when
the Cross is preached, the Holy Spirit will draw
the ones He chooses to hear. It's up to us to pray, and witness by word and deed in and out of the Church building.
The humble little church we attend is crowded if
there are 20 in attendance but we have a man of God leading us, a man of prayer and because of him we are a praying church.
My husband and I attended a huge church in S.C.
while living there. The preacher was dynamic,
he didn't tickle anyone's ears. The ministry
is fantastic. It's really too big for us even though we enjoyed it, and it ministered to us during a difficult time. We felt lost in the shuffle among so many people since we weren't
there long enough to join anything. We much prefer our humble little church where we do know
everyone.

This is part of a larger
discussion about God's community, and the behavior of the godly.

While Jesus unflinchingly spoke the truth, and prophesied damnation for those who ignored God, he also sought to give all who heard him the opportunity to repent and follow God.

This is such a difficult balance to maintain. On the one hand we have the more righteous, who assume that they are the elect while others "do not have ears to hear", and on the other hand we have mealy-mouthed Christians who are afraid of Christ's righteousness.

It is not up to us to decide "who has ears to hear". In fact according to the Great Commission, our responsibility is to spread His word far and wide, so that all may be saved.

At the same time, we have no authority to blur God's dividing line, indicating what is a Godly way of life and what is not.

(We have to be always aware that we do not measure up to God's standard, and that we are only saved by heavenly intercession. So, behaviorally speaking, we are on THIS side of God's line along with all the rest of the sinners, and Jesus is on the OTHER side.)

I get the impression from many TH bloggers that they think that the mission of Christianity is to protect itself from the outside, as it is under attack.

Yes, it is under attack, as it has always been, but it probably has more resources under its control that at any other time in history. How can we justify such a defensive and selfish approach?

I believe that this defensive attitude underlies a good deal of the angry rhetoric on these threads about the threat that secularism and Islamism pose. Do you think Jesus would be defensive in such a situation? Would he not seek to embrace the world, and use technology and marketing to do so?

Amused & Confused
I took a quick scan of both the postings and the 100 Largest Churches. Of the biggest churches I see at least 1 that I would be leary of because of health & wealth gospel.

I also read the top ten things we need to know. Most of the points are valid. The mission of the Church is to serve. First serve God and then serve man. The church is indeed set apart. Even St. Paul became like a Jew to convert Jews and like a Greek to convert Greeks. By extension he was talking to people in the language that he understood.


My church
is what would be considered a mega-church (although not nearly as big as the ones at the top of the list). For me it was pretty simple: In the small community church where I was I felt no sense of belonging, no connection. In my current church, it "clicked" immediately.

Churches of Harlots & Fornicators
Words in []brackets are mine.
1 Timothy 1:8-14 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient[those who do not have the mosaic law], for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane[harlots (single non-virgins by choice) and the men who lay with them], for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers [pimps], for them that defile themselves with mankind [male homosexuals], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons [this would include by inference those who tolerate perjury and that is all who take part in our judicial system which does not punish perjury with the same punishment that the perjurer seeks to impose on his victim], and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."Romans 3:10

Yes, the blood of Jesus makes us righteous but the words, "go and sin no more" are appropriate for anyone who claims to be a believer and how can they worshipfully follow the Lord if they do not know the law? They cannot nor can they do anything other than to lead others astray.

Gospel makes people feel "less than"
Which Christians know is a good thing. Until we recognize and acknowledge our sin, we can't give it to Jesus. It bothers me that some marketing expert thinks the way to reach the lost is to not tell them they're lost. Wouldn't want to make anyone feel bad.

It's ridiculous! Sorry if it makes you feel bad, but you're a sinner. So am I. I'm a saved sinner because I've recognized and acknowledged my sin and turned it over to Jesus. If you haven't done that, you're an unsaved sinner and dying in that condition has some pretty nasty consequences that are guaranteed to make you feel worse than being told you're lost did. Sorry if that's hard for you to handle, but reality bites and you best adapt to it or perish.

Saying that, however, we don't shout that from a soapbox because unless somebody is sitting in the gutter after a four-day drunk (yes, I know some ONE who accepted Christ that way), they aren't going to recognize how degenerate they really are. Most people come to the Lord because somebody they liked and respected told them gently and over a period of time that Jesus loves you and He wants to see you in heaven but you have to leave behind some baggage to get there. It's the same message as "turn or burn", but it requires a bit more effort.


Perhaps we are too quick
Perhaps we are too quick to work out salvation for those around us, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work. I don't think it's a matter of the words that we use; we can still speak in Christian terminology and to the one who the Spirit is drawing, it becomes perfectly clear.

Sometimes I'm afraid that by trying to speak in the language of the unbeliever, we've called them by their intellect rather than the Spirit calling. Salvation is His work, not ours. I actually believe that unbelievers are more drawn by us speaking in the spirit, rather than our attempts to attract them by using words we think they understand.

Balance
I think its all about balance.

Christianeze can get in the way, but so can watering it down. The gospel, in its most full, MUST be preached. If we fail that, no matter the language, we fail. If we fail to use appropriate words but the right message, we can still bring them in.

I go to McLean Bible, on the list, and I think it brings people for a number of reasons. First, it is relevent. Second, it is open. Third, it is honest. Fourth, it is Biblical. Fifth, it is progressive in its approach.

Let me say a little on the fifth: it does not steer away from things. It embraces technology, while it uses "Christianeze" it explains it along the way, and it really pushes the idea we, as Christians, are to reach the world.

Its amazing what happens when these come together...

If marketing can bring people
within earshot of the gospel, what on earth is the problem?

Ssul of Tarsus
was a Jew (he was born of Jewish parents) and a bureaucrat of the Romans, but his persecution of early Christians was from the Roman rule point of view and not from Judaism.

Scholars think his success in founding a Christian Church among the Gentiles was his background in Hellenism, which was still very prevalent and pervasive in the Mediterranean countries.

A dumb question......
What exactly is a Christian? There is no easy answer to this one because Christianity itself is divided into so many different denominations. The first schism started during the Middle ages when the Church split into Eastern and Western Churches. Later on would come the Reformation which then divided the Church into competitive Catholic and Protestant churches which has lasted right until the present day! Naturally each denomination thinks it knows the only way to salvation and is the true pipeline to Jesus. Alot of Christians aren't too thrilled with Mitt Romney because they think Mormonism is weird.

So again, sheeple, what's a Christian?!

Unbelievers
Hey are non-believers and heretics still burned at the stake?????

no bs
A simple answer: a Christian is one who believes Christ is the only way to reach God.


no bs artist writes

no bs artist writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 8:23 PM
A dumb question......
What exactly is a Christian? There is no easy answer to this one because Christianity itself is divided into so many different denominations. The first schism started during the Middle ages when the Church split into Eastern and Western Churches. Later on would come the Reformation which then divided the Church into competitive Catholic and Protestant churches which has lasted right until the present day! Naturally each denomination thinks it knows the only way to salvation and is the true pipeline to Jesus. Alot of Christians aren't too thrilled with Mitt Romney because they think Mormonism is weird.

So again, sheeple, what's a Christian?!

Foxfire:

I think that you are talking about the church, not the Church.

Christians are first born again believers.
They become Christians when they follow the precepts or practices of the of scriptures, starting with assembling themselves together, then learning how to live in a Christ like manner, exercising there spiritual gift or gifts, moving on to the great commission, praying fellowshipping.

Believers first were called Christians at Antioch.
We tend to use the word loosely, calling those who come to church or meet in homes on Easter, and Christmas, Christians.

Christian are not perfect by any means, but a true Christian strives to be Christ like, which is where the word comes from.

Contextual Distinctions
The definition of Christian can depend on the context. A lot of confusion results from misunderstanding.

To the average Muslim, every American and most European are Christians. They see Hollywood as a Christian institution. After all Islamic countries don't allow such debauchery.

To many Christian, they include everyone to the theological right of them and few to the left. Those with 100 distinctions have a hard time accepting those with only 80. Since the 100 includes most of the 80, the less restrictive tends to include them as Christian but not those with only 50.

I'm concerned that Virginia Daddy, while not incorrect is incomplete. Could a non-trinitarian agree with that statement... maybe. It doesn't assent to Christ's return, nor to his physical death and Resurrection.

The early church wrestled with these issues and came up with various creeds. I think these are good place to start. They are in essential agreement although the language is sometimes revised.

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/creeds.html

As far as descent, the "First Century Church" faced the problem. "I am of Paul, I am of Silas, I am of Apollo"

The Church

The size of the Church is not important. Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

We need Jesus' saving grace because of our sin nature. We can't save ourselves and neither can the church.

The most important thing is to believe that "He is the way." He has already paid the penalty of sin for us on the cross, but that doesn't mean we can continue to sin.

A Christian confesses their sins, believes in and follows Christ; they seek fellowship with other Christians to worship; and they share the message of the gospel.

The problem is liberal theology
The big "church killer" in America today puts on nice clothes, has impeckable manners, and is a dangerous wolf, waiting to devour God's flock with hellish ideas like: "Numbers are #1" and "We don't take the Bible literally anymore" and "We don't believe that women should be excluded from leadership roles" and other garbage. Anyone who gets on a church board and starts spouting liberal nonsense should be warned by the Church elders and deacons to "knock it off" and they should show the heretic where he/she is wrong. If the person continues in his/her divisiveness, the church should disfellowship the person and treat him/her as a tax collector or a publican. Liberal authors of "Christian" books should be boycotted by the real Christians, why fund their heresies? Libs should be lovingly rebuked but watch out, they run in packs and once the door is open, they let other libs into your church and guess what they do next? They try to run off as many conservatives as possible, starting with the leadership. I had a VERY bad exprience with a lib deacon once: Church was just ending and I went to say "hi" to a person I didn't see there often and the lib rebuked me in public for being a pervert! (I am not) I was privately angry at him but I continued to go to that church until it became obvious that their doctrine and practices where heretical. I really hope that he sees the light and repents his liberalism, as well as other members of that church that have turned that church from a Godly denomination into a lib pycho-babble session from hell. I even spoke up a few times about the danger but just about everyone ignored me. Churches, don't let everyone who wants to get on your church boards in, just those who are conservative.

my 2 cents
The biggest problem with modern day Christianity are mega churches and t.v. televangelist. These super rich men like money more than the truth. I don't know how many-times I've heard a republican say Edward's can't be president because he's rich and want to help the poor.

Random Thoughts
It is incomplete, but offered it as a starting point.

A Christian is much more, and I think there are some facets that one must adhere to: The Trinity, The Scriptures as full and complete, offering everything we need, Christ as God and as risen, acceptance of Christ and his exclusive power to forgive our sins as the only way to reach heaven.

Again, each of these deserves much more attention, but trust me, I my answer above was for discussion sake.

Big Churches
In and of themselves are not the problem. I have spoken of my church, as it is was I know, and it is Biblical through and through. It is very conservative in its theology. For instance, while women are allowed leadership roles and can teach some small generic classes, they are not called pastors and cannot teach men when it comes to the Bible. Lon always bases his sermons on scripture and never deviates. Kids are separated to boys and girls in 2nd grade, I think it is.

Just because a church is big does not mean it is lacking s true Christ foundation.

A faulty assumption
In the New Testament, the "churches" were really all one church - taught the same doctrines, taught the same way of salvation, believed the same things - because there were living Apostles and Prophets from Heaven. They were one.

If one were to really and honestly enquire into these churches on this recent list, one would find they all believe all sorts of different things. The assumption that today these churches are similar to the experience of the NT church is faulty - they are not. The modern churches are mostly different, believing different things, performing different ordinances, notwithstanding their professed Christianity. Why?

That list is actually a sign that the great apostacy did occur from the original church set up by the Savior. That church had Christ at it's head, and led by Apostles and Prophets. Where are the living Prophets and Apostles today? This list has none, hence they must break up, differ, and be a mass of confusion, and pretend to be "one church".

Hence the need to restore that which was lost. What a stark example that list is of this fact.

Definition of a Christian
I've read with interest some of the blogs on defining what is a Christian. Christ in Modern Revelation gives a great definition:

"He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple..."

Mere professing of one's lips that Jesus is the Christ is not enough to make one a christian. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" the Master said (John 14:15). I think it's fair to say that a requirement to be a Christian is to love Christ, and hence true christians are those who keep His commandments.

The scriptures seem to put a high premium on doing, not on saying. If we truly believe, we will truly do.


FreedomResponsibility
Are you a Mormon?

Virginia Daddy
Hi there. Yes, I am. I've enjoyed your posts here. You have a discerning eye :)

Why do you ask?




FreedomResponsibility
No reason, really. I just noticed you quickly came in and called all the churches apostate, which ya'll think about us. Just looking for clarification, that's all.

And I am glad you have enjoyed my posts...

Thanks.

Virginia Daddy
No, I did not call all other churches apostate. There is much good, and much truth in every church.

However, the message of our church is that the religion of original Christianity was changed - the divine authority to minister saving ordinances was lost, the divine right to revelation from Christ to His Apostles and Prophets was lost. It happened ~1900 years ago. Paul and Peter acknowledged this departing of the true way even while they were alive.

If the fullness of truth were on the earth, and the churches were all the Lord's, then there should be no disputation or confusion on key doctrines such as the nature of God, baptism, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, authority, and scriptures, to name a few. One Lord, one Faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5)

As an example - as early as 325 AD, Constantine called the council of Nicaea to gather all the bishops together to answer the question of what is the nature of God? (and what happened to the Apostles?) This council argued, wrangled, struggled, accused, and in the end produced a document (and other councils did similarly) that didn't answer anything, that quite frankly, is incomprehensible.

Due to all this confusion, a young man prayed "which church should I join?" In answer to that prayer, the boy Joseph Smith was visited personally by the Father and the Son - tangible beings, glorified and resurrected and they declared that the time had arrived to restore all things back to the earth. It really happened. No more doubting, no more councils, a living witness who could tell us exactly about God and His Son.

The message is that the heavens are opened once again, and once again Apostles and Prophets walk the earth with divine authority and receive revelation just as Peter and Paul! Bring all the good you have, which is much, and let us add to it.

More than happy to continue this...my email is freedomresponsibility1@yahoo.com.





Who makes Christians
This man is on target; nothing has hurt the Cause of Christ more than the "modernism" of the Gospel in the hope of winning the race to fill up our churches. Constantine filled up the churches by edict, and began the march toward the Age of the Antichrist; mild-mannered heathens do not make Christians; only God can do that.
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