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Saturday, April 19, 2008
Paul Driessen :: Townhall.com Columnist
Global Warming Tax Hikes Headed Your Way
by Paul Driessen
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America is in the throes of a major housing and financial downturn, soaring food and energy costs, rising unemployment and near recession. But many legislators and bureaucrats are falling all over themselves to restrict fossil fuel use, advance climate change legislation – and thereby increase oil imports, energy prices, and impacts on families and businesses.

Even President Bush has called for action on climate change. “Reasonable and responsible” legislation is needed, the White House asserts, to avert a “regulatory nightmare” that from overlapping state and federal rules. One shudders to think the “preferred solution” could be a costly federal regulatory nightmare of emission mandates and hidden taxes in the form of cap-and-trade schemes.

Earth did warm slightly over the last quarter century, as it emerged further from the Little Ice Age, and humans likely played a role. However, literally hundreds of climate scientists say catastrophic climate change and dominant human influence are over-hyped myths.

Our planet has experienced numerous climate shifts, they point out, including prolonged ice ages, a 400-year Medieval Warm Period and a 500-year Little Ice Age. Climate scientists still don’t understand what caused these events – or the temperature roller coaster of the last century, as carbon dioxide levels rose steadily: temperatures climbed from 1910 to 1945, fell between 1945 and 1975, and increased again from 1975 to 1998, notes Syun-Ichi Akasofu, founding director of the International Arctic Research Center.

Five of the ten hottest years in US history were in the 1920s and 1930s. Average global temperatures stabilized in 1998, and then fell 1.1 degrees F the past twelve months, satellite measurements show. Ice core data demonstrate that, over thousands of years, rising temperatures preceded higher atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, by hundreds of years – the exact opposite of climate chaos hypotheses. Interior Greenland and Antarctica appear to be gaining ice mass; they’re certainly not melting.

These inconvenient facts have forced alarmists to rely on computer models that generate Frankenclime monsters realistic enough to scare people into believing climate Armageddon is nigh.

Climate models do help scientists evaluate possible consequences of changing economic growth, emission, cloud cover and other variables. But they can’t reproduce the actual climate of the past century. They cannot make accurate predictions, even one year in the future, much less fifty. They do not represent reality, and should not be relied on to guide public policy.

Models reflect the assumptions and hypotheses that go into them – and our still limited understanding of complex, turbulent climate processes that involve the sun, oceans, land masses and atmosphere. They do a poor job of dealing with the effects of water vapor, precipitation and high cirrus clouds on temperatures and climate, because the underlying physics aren’t well understood, notes MIT meteorology professor Richard Lindzen.

Like the UN’s politicized climate control panel, the IPCC, models also place too much emphasis on carbon dioxide. They pay insufficient attention to extraterrestrial factors like changes in the Earth’s irregular orbit around the sun, solar energy levels, and solar winds that appear to influence the level of cosmic rays reaching Earth, and thus the formation of cloud cover and penetration of infrared radiation from the sun. They likewise fail to incorporate the profound effects that periodic shifts in Pacific Ocean currents have on temperatures and sea ice in the Arctic.

When the US National Assessment compared the results of two top-tier computer models for various regions of the United States, the models frequently generated precisely opposite rainfall scenarios, University of Alabama at Huntsville climatologist John Christy points out. Depending on which model was used, the Dakotas and Rio Grande valley would supposedly become complete deserts or huge swamps; the Southeastern US would become a jungle or semi-arid grassland.

Activists, journalists, politicians, AlGoreans, and even scientists and corporate executives then select the scariest scenarios, call them evidence, trumpet them with hysterical headlines – and insist on drastic cutbacks in CO2 emissions and energy use. They’ll likely make millions, while other families and businesses suffer. Many are big on wind and ethanol, but not thrilled about nuclear power.

Fully 85 percent of all the energy Americans use comes from fossil fuels. Less than 0.5% is wind power, which generates electricity only eight hours a day, on average. Over half of our electricity is produced by coal, because it is plentiful and affordable, and modern power plants emit few pollutants, but do generate abundant plant food (the same carbon dioxide we exhale every time we breathe).

Any climate change regime would impose new restrictions on coal-fired power plants, oil and gas drilling, air and ground transportation, and heating, air conditioning and manufacturing. In fact, any facility or activity that generates more than 250 tons of carbon dioxide per year could be heavily regulated: bakeries, breweries, soft drink makers, factories, apartment and office buildings, dairy farms and countless others. Permit, regulatory, oversight, anti-fraud monitoring and polar bear endangerment rules would cost billions in still more highly regressive, hidden taxes.

The ultimate goal of energy-killer activists is to slash US carbon dioxide emissions some 80% below 1990 levels by 2050, to stabilize global CO2 levels, even as China, India and other developing countries continue their economic and emissions boom. The last time the United States emitted such low amounts of CO2 was 1905! Where and how will your family and business achieve 80% emission reductions?

Welcome to the good old days – to Eco-Camelot, where “the climate must be perfect all year.” Poor minority and blue-collar families will be in for some serious belt-tightening, millions of jobs will head overseas, and demand for unemployment benefits, mortgage bailouts and energy welfare will soar, as state and federal coffers run dry.

Worst, in the end, all the cutbacks and sacrifices won’t make any difference, because our climate is not driven by carbon dioxide – but by the same natural forces that have caused major and minor climate changes since the dawn of time, say scientists like Roy Spencer, Robert Balling and Fred Singer.

Climate change is no longer science. It’s politics – and Democrats would be thrilled if a Republican president took the lead – and Republicans take the blame when the bills start rolling in.

Climate change is also about power. Power to control – and curtail – the power we rely on: to build, heat and cool our homes … produce raw materials, food and consumer products … transport people and products … and support modern living standards.

It’s about the selection, production, conservation, taxation – and prevention – of energy. It’s about access to real energy, versus mandates to use futuristic, mostly illusory, and certainly insufficient alternative energy. It’s about who gets to decide: how much energy we will have … where that energy will come from … what it will cost … and whether there will be enough energy to lift more families out of poverty.

It’s about simulations, scenarios and monsters conjured up by computer models that should never be used to chart government policy – especially on matters that will profoundly affect our livelihoods, living standards, life spans and dreams of a better future.

So hold onto your wallets, and hope you can hold onto your homes, cars and jobs. You’re about to be put on a wild political roller coaster. And don’t expect much honesty, transparency or accountability from climate Armageddonites.

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About The Author
Paul Driessen is senior policy adviser for the Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT), which is sponsoring the All Pain No Gain petition against global-warming hype. He also is a senior policy adviser to the Congress of Racial Equality and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green Power - Black Death.

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Isn't that what Global Warming
is all about? It's about raising taxes, not finding a solution. Our gov't is running out of money - money needed to keep the apes on the plantation. This will give them the capital needed to enslave the next generation.

Nearly everyone of the lying
politicians have signed on to this scam. The Republicrat Party has become just as bad as the Commiecrats. Every passing day it becomes more obvious that we need a new party or even better, a new Constitutional Convention.

Planet X and polar shift
outflank global warming by December 21, 2012.

Good article, excellent, right-on
Actually, the reason the UN Panel, the IPCC, is so blind and dishonest is that they vetted all the scientists for intellectual bias towards the man-caused CO2 theory, and they do not permit any dissent. The goal was to impose worldwide carbon taxes or a UN administered carbon trading scheme. And this goal is shared by the governments in this scheme for the same reason.

So, science, and facts don't matter. The issue of the theory disagreeing with observations does not matter. The fact that the solar theory explains climate variations and the CO2 theory does not means nothing. They ignore the observations because the theory is necessary to raise taxes so the Environmentalists and Greens, and Democrats can gain control and enrich their fellow travelers like Al Gore and carbon traders who are giving political contributions.

This is the reason why the single largest group in the Bali conference last year were carbon traders. Signs over their booths said "THIS IS A BILLION DOLLAR PROFITS INDUSTRY!" Their profits -- our money.

This is so important to them that they don't see that once in place it will bring down governments for the same reason Haiti's government was deposed -- hunger and man-caused poverty. The voters will not stand for it, but it must be a visible disaster before anyone will believe it.

It will destroy the credibility of scientists and scientific associations because they accepted a theory which has no evidence, none, never mind proof, that man-caused global warming even exists.

One thing that rarely gets talked about
is the electric rates. Yes, your direct taxes will go up, particularly on items such as gasoline even though the warmies have stated that automobiles are very minor source that contributes even less than cow farts. (Note: the liberals who are pushing this scam hate automobiles and love cows) Yes, congress will impose a cap and trade influence peddling scheme that will cause all manufactured products in the U.S. to increase in price or move to China who will either be exempted or who will have a limit so high that it may as well be exempted.

But what this misses is the impact on the electric utility industry and the cost of electricity. This week we discussed the literal futility in switching to CFLs in order to save a few measly watts per day while Mr. Manufacturing Plant down the road was burning 50 megawatts per hour. Well if your State is like mine the cost of electricity to Mr. Manufacturing Plant is a negotiated contract that results in much much cheaper rates. For example a large user may pay only 4.2 cents per kilowatt while Mr. Homeowner pays 7 cents and Mr. Downtown store pays 10 cents. Mr. store and Mr. home do not get to bargain with several utilities to get the cheapest price.

So in the end when the cost of generation is doubled or tripled who do you think is going to pay for this increase in cost. I’ll give you a hint, it will not be Mr. Manufacturer.

Country of suckers
Man ,I may just say screw it and head for the mountains. We are ushering in our own demise! IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kidding WHOM?
"America is in the throes of a major housing and financial downturn, soaring food and energy costs, rising unemployment and near recession"

No. We are in a deep recession; it just started.
Unemployment statistics lie - they only show people taking unempl. comp. After 6 months - no more comp., and everyone is magically "employed"...

No real jobs. Don't read newspapers, ask neighbors - they are either unemployed, or working for a fraction of previous earnings...

AND to make it WORST - the gov wants to add Mehiko problems to our problems.
Suicidal, at least.

maybe COOLING, but not WARMING
STATISTICS and other LIES
Many temp. stations had been closed in the Siberia region of former USSR, SO THE AVERAGE TEMP without adjustment HAD to go up...and libs are known for manipulating/not adjusting honestly the data (too cold there? Drop that reading!).

Some stations are close to garbage-burning sites (it was on the news a few months ago), which creates microclimat with no statistical value.

1,000 years ago temps were ANYBODY's GUESS..

AND in every car or house the temp vary by at least 10 degrees, depending on the area - by the window, near the air vent, near hot stove, near AC in the window, measured during summer, winter, etc.

ASK 1,000,000 PPOPLE TO GET EARTH TEMP AT, SAY, 10 OR 1,000 POINTS - AND YOU WILL GET 1,000,000 RESULTS.

NASA Debunks Part of Global Warming Myth, Will Media Report It?
By Noel Sheppard | November 14, 2007 - 12:23 ET

Is the National Aeronautics and Space Administration filled with climate change deniers?

Such seems likely to be alleged by hysterical alarmists in the press when and if they read a new study out of NASA which determined that "not all the large changes seen in Arctic climate in recent years are a result of long-term trends associated with global warming."

Goes quite counter to all the recent media reports, as well as assertions by Nobel Laureate Al Gore...


Over 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries recently voiced significant objections to major aspects of the so-called "consensus" on man-made global warming. These scientists, many of whom are current and former participants in the UN IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), criticized the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore.

Ahh I see
Townhall is *warming* all of you up to accepting global warming. I mean, being the government shills that they are, they will have to eventually fall in line with the current talking points.

Trust me, townhall.com will be filled with articles about the global warming crisis now that it is a republican position. They just have to figure out the right segway to start getting their readers to fall in line after years of opposing it.

You are being fooled.

How
oh how, will townhall.com manage a 180 on this one? All these books they've written!! Will they have to come out with new editions supporting global warming instead?

I'm sure they'll think of something. Probably just waiting for the new talking points to roll in.

Great, now I get to argue with global-warming theory supporting republicans, too? Sigh...

I feel like I am living in the twilight zone.

Wait, I know!
Since the next President will be a democrat, they will simply criticize them and pretend Bush and the gang's involvement never happened. Then they will call those that don't fall in line with their revision of the facts, 'truther nutjobs' and newspaper that print the facts, liberal. That ought to get the loyalists to fall in line.

Just look at the open border republican wierdos in the blogs area.

Don't underestimate public stupidity
God, can these global warming freaks be for real? Who could POSSIBLY say Bush is a conservative? That an idiot. Truly, the effects of his Presidency will be much more destructive than Clinton's. A pathetic slug.

DITTO!
CT writes: Isn't that what Global Warming is all about? It's about raising taxes, not finding a solution.

And it does not take much to see and understand this - if you just research a little and THINK! So I say DITTO - IMHO!

GLOBAL - GLOBAL - GLOBAL - GLOBAL
Global climate change is, by definition, a global issue. It is not amenable to local, state, regional, national or even multi-national solutions. Anything less than a global solution is doomed to failure.

China commissioned 90 GW of new coal-fired generation, without sequestration, in 2006. That is roughly equivalent to 10% of the total US generating fleet; and, to roughly 20% of the US coal-fired fleet. That means that, even if the US had decommissioned 20% of its coal-fired generating fleet in 2006, all else being equal, total global CO2 emissions would have remained unchanged, though they would certainly have been less than they would otherwise have been.

I do not believe an informed US electorate would be very interested in paying more for their energy to offset the increased CO2 emissions in China; or, paying more for their energy to achieve a reduction in CO2 emissions to reduce/prevent AGW if no actual reduction in absolute global emissions actually occurred. Of course, if we remain uninformed, then I guess the politicians would think it was OK.

Serious Problem? Un-Serious "Solutions"! Politics as usual.

More GLOBAL - GLOBAL - GLOBAL - GLOBAL
If the increase in atmospheric carbon concentration is driving the increase in global average temperature, then temperatures would continue to increase to some degree as long as atmospheric concentration continues to increase. That means that any “solution” which does not stop the increase in atmospheric concentration also would not stop the increase in global average temperature; and, any “solution” which does not reduce the increase in atmospheric concentration in absolute terms would also not slow the increase in temperature in absolute terms either.

Therefore, any further discussion of “Kyoto”, “Son of Kyoto”, “Kyoto Lite” (McCain/Lieberman or Lieberman/Warner), any other US-only emissions reduction program, the Northeast state effort, the California effort, etc. is absolutely, totally and completely meaningless. In short, any program which does not include every nation in the world, especially China (the #1 anthropogenic carbon emitter), is a non-starter. Any program which focuses on reducing emissions “below what they would have been” is merely aimed at slowing the increase in the rate of growth of carbon concentration and temperature.

If the increase in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 must be stopped to prevent a global cataclysm, then anything less is “navel gazing”.

If the increase in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 must merely be slowed, then by how much, how quickly, to keep the concentration from exceeding what level.

Good Job Driessen
You obviously have been looking at the facts without the help of those bowing down to Owlgore, while he is fattening his wallet. Just add this one along side of the Democrats' plans after the 2008 elections that will solve the world's poverty, universal health care, funnel more money into the education black hole, and get some of the badly needed Marxist's programs back into full swing. Trust the weather guys, they can't tell you much of anything other than what it will generally be over the next 2 or 3 days. Beyond that computer models are models.

too many people?
We breathe out CO2. Hmmm. Maybe it's going up because there are so many people. I wonder what computer calculations would come up with if they plugged in the population then reworked the scenario with only half the people. Then what?

I am sick and tired of
these greenies and their global warming BS and all the other garbage they espouse.
We knew 30 yrs ago we needed to get away from foreign oil and nuclear was the way to do it....nothing gets done because of these damfool clowns and their friends on the hill.

Ethanol is a joke, it does more harm than good and cost more to produce than gas and has less energy, but we get that shoved down our throats because people are making lots of money from it.
Food prices will go up, but by God were green and feel so good about ourselves.

P.T.Barnum was right, "no-one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the public" or some such and gore took it to heart and made millions.

how about Newt's new commercials?
Anyone seen the commercial (PSA) with Newt Gingrich and Nancy Pelosi, agreeing that we need to deal with "climate change"?? What's up with that?

squarepegt
That wqas announced several weeks ago by Albore. Newt has gone over to the dark side as well.

CDF
First, we eliminate fossil fuel use.

Second, we eliminate domesticated animals, which exhale CO2 and expel methane. (We all become vegans.)

Finally, since six billion hunter/gatherers are too many, we begin hunting each other until there is enough food to support us again.

Fortunately, I'll not be around to watch the final phases. Enjoy!

Squarepeg, yes I have seen...
Newt's and Nancy's little ad and the ad with Al Sharpton and Pat Robertson with the same message. Politicians in general will say and do whatever they think will get themselves the most traction with the unwashed masses.

I suspect that we will see more and more of this. Political arch enemies coming together to fight something that even if it does exist, cannot be fixed or controlled by mere humans.

Why have more than one political party when the differences between the politicians are barely detectable anymore. All three candidates for POTUS espouse unity and these days any politician who does not bow to climate change hype will be seen as calloused, capitalistic and uncaring. People have been brain washed and the rope a dopers who are profiting greatly are winning.

As for the weather, I rely on the Farmer's Almanac. It is right more times than all the other experts put together.

This article is wrong
"The ultimate goal of energy-killer activists is to slash US carbon dioxide emissions some 80% below 1990 levels by 2050, to stabilize global CO2 levels..."

Wrong. The ultimate goal of energy-killer activists is to get control of the people.

environmentalwhackoes are MORONS!!!
why doesn't algore and his elitist whackoes move to china or india?

what stupid brainless morons.

coal is cheap and new plants cause lot lower emissions, but the libtard lefties are gonna screw it up for everyone. they don't care about America, just their stupid carbon dioxide. why don;t they kill themselves so we don't have to listen to their crap.

Over 400 World Wide Prominent Scientists
Over 400 World Wide Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007. See http://tinyurl.com/2dv6nz

the greenies had to make...
a slight adjustment to the screed they are selling. They have gone from calling it "Global Warming" to "Climate Change".

The climate has been changing since the beginning of time, yet they would have us believe that it is happening because of all the evil human activities on this planet.

About 30 years ago these same experts were predicting that hell would be frozen over before the year 2000.

They will continue to make adjustments to their agenda as public opinion warrants. People who do not bother to use that device in their craniums and apply some critical thinking and common sense to whatever hype they are being sold are the biggest reason these power hungry snake oil salesmen we call politicians will continue to profit in both power and financial wealth.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hill, BHO and McCain in a similar ad. Then I guess we can choose our next POTUS by who looks the most presidential.

Sacrifice to the Gods
Ancient societies sometimes performed elaborate sacrificial rituals to please the Gods, who in turn rewarded them with a good crop growing season. If the season was bad, the elders blamed the imperfect sacrifice, if it was good, they took credit for conducting a grand ritual. Of course, these things had no impact on anything but the power of the ruling elders.

We now laugh at such things and wonder how people could be so gullible and stupid . . .

Or at least we should.

And y'all
call Ron Paul a kook? How many in this thread have made that statement? How many frothed at the bit, to usher in everything that is wrong with politics, this country and the world and still do so. Still crying out for total enslavement and control. Climate Control is a small part of, the end goal.

Let's see, our borders are wide open, illegals number up to 20 million, Border Patrol Agents put in jail over drug smuggelers, illegals protesting in our own streets against us, waving foriegn flags, receiving health care, food stamps, dental work, housing, everything. The politicians receive multi million dollar retirements, rich and famous life styles, private jets, decadent immoral activities, government employees making buchu bucks, huge retirements, etc... But say a word and your a kook?

If you even dare bring up the Constitution, you are somehow tagged as Un American? Retarded? Kook? Not with the times?

And yet, we are being pulled over for speeding and have our DNA taken, our phones tapped, our emails scrutinised, every American put into an NSA database, forced national ID Cards, local and state police being federalised, private mercenaries given a billion dollar contract to police our streets (Black Water), on and on...........

But yet, you are all worried about taxes, for global warming.

Didn't anyone notice that the government just rounded up 416 children from a church, based on a false accusation? Then you all justify it, because they are wierd? Say it is for the sake of the children? No one has been arrested, no one charged with a crime, but yet all those children taken and you all say nothing?

We have bigger problems, than what this thread is about. The problem is you and I blame you, for being led by the nose for so many years and justifying having your faces shoved in sh&*, over and over, then praising the ones doing it to you.

You are all a bunch of parrots and trained monkeys.

sedonaman
This article is wrong
"The ultimate goal of energy-killer activists is to slash US carbon dioxide emissions some 80% below 1990 levels by 2050, to stabilize global CO2 levels..."

The stated ultimate goal would not stabilize global CO2 levels, since China will increase its CO2 emissions by the equivalent of "80% below 1990 levels" by 2010, with no end in sight.

If the vessel to which you are adding something already contains more of that something than is desirable, continuing to add that something more slowly will not resolve the issue. If the vessel is a common vessel and others are also adding that something to the vessel, even if you and/or one or more of the others stops adding that something to the vessel while others do not stop, your actions will not resolve the issue. Once everyone stops adding that something to the common vessel, it becomes possible and perhaps practical to begin removing a portion of that something from the common vessel to achieve the "ideal" vessel content.

WHAT THE VOTERS WANT?


.....Humans have survived for hundreds of thousands of
millenia because of our intelligence ...now it appears
we have produced a populace so devoid of intelligence
that we could be in danger of becoming extinct ...

.....who bought into the Global Warming nonsense?
...Who bought into the alternate energy scams? ...who
keeps us from recovering our own vast reserves of
fossil fuels? ...who votes for these politicians who
enact and pass these destructive and suicidal Energy
Bills? ...

.....Why it is us ...Vox Populi ...

.....We get what we vote for .....COLOSSUS

I suspect that within...
every human soul on the planet there exists the knowledge that nothing they nor any other human does will have an ultimate effect on the existence of this planet.

Some of these souls are able to suppress this innate knowledge believing that within their finite brains exist the answers that will bring about the ultimate utopia. Some just see the opportunity to exploit these seekers of an earthly utopia, creating paranoia and using it to gain personal power and wealth.

If one believes that the universe with all it's intricacies was just a giant accident, that no creator exists, that today is all we have and that death is the end of everything then they frantically try to control, prevent or at least prolong that end.




The climate has warmed a little
and probably from human impacts says the article. Scientist have warned from as early as the 1980's that climate change will bring more severe weather droughts, floods, and storms. all of which can severely impact farmers. Lets take a look at what that little warming has brought us. It has brought prolonged drought (7 years) to Australia's bread basket and there is no break in sight.
Australia is a major exporter of wheat and rice but not these last few years.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=53133
Add to the loss of 3 % of rice production the rising cost of fuel and poor people in part of the world are facing starvation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/apr/06/food.foo danddrink

Food production in other parts are also affected. US extensive drought through the mid west last years. this year unusally heavy rains and way more than normal numbers of tornadoes. Worries now that it is too wet for the farmers to get into the field to plant the corn crop. Then there is rising fuel prices. Forget corn ethanol. We can produce biodiesel from algae. Algae doubles in volume in a few days, can be fertilized with sewage effluent and C02 captured from coal plants. But we have made no efforts to bring that technology on line. Tough times are ahead because we can't seem to grasp the gravity of the problem.




vindex
You're wasting your time around here. Townhall is populated with drones who believe that as long Republicans are in charge, everything is fine. It makes no difference to them that Clinton/Obama/McCain represent the same one-world-without-borders, global warming, left-wing interests. I don't think anyone here noticed that Bush and Gore have virtually identical positions on global warming. The only difference is that Gore made a movie about it. That is what the GOP has been reduced to in this one-party system. The Democratic wing breaks down the walls by issuing the nutty over-the-top version and then the Republican wing reworks the concept by declaring surrender to the inevitable and proposing a "more sensible" version. It's all one big scripted kabuki play.

Pasadena Phil
"I don't think anyone here noticed that Bush and Gore have virtually identical positions on global warming."

It is a good thing they didn't, because it is not the case.

Taxes
Is what global warming is all about.

Never had anything to do with controlling the climate, cause we cannot do that.
Now taxes is something mankind has power over, and with the power to tax, comes the power to rule.

Global Warming
Translation: Global Tax

Global warming
EnvironMENTAList: the new Nazis

More
We have whimps who won't say "NO" to these extremist environmentalists because they might be accused of not caring about the world. where has common sense & wisdom gone?? The Government is going to tell us what kind of light bulbs to buy, tell us how much water we can use (even though we pay for it) what are these idiots going to do next? make a law that all lawn mowers, weed eaters, tillers, etc must be powered by electricity? where is this madness going to end?

Off Topic.....
Remember Lexington and Concord; Remember Waco!!

On this day, April 19, 1775, our forefathers fired upon the British troops seeking to disarm them and thus began the fight for our independence and freedom. This was the beginning, the birth of our great Country and many died in the ensuing years so that we, their posterity, could live our lives as Freemen, unbridled from the chains of slavery put upon us by an oppressive government.

On this day, April 19, 1993, in Waco, Texas, the US Government killed over 70 US citizens. They were murdered for nothing more then exercising their inalienable rights as enumerated and protected by the First and Second Amendments of the US Constitution; the same Constitution the Founding Fathers of this “Nation of States” had the foresight to pen for us. What a sad commentary for our Country that “We the People” have allowed our government to systematically destroy the very ideals this Country was founded upon.



By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled;
Here once the embattled farmers stood;
And fired the shot heard round the world.

The foe long since in silence slept;
Alike the conqueror silent sleeps,
And Time the ruined bridge has swept
Down the dark stream that seaward creeps.

On this green bank, by this soft stream,
We set to-day a votive stone,
That memory may their deeds redeem,
When, like our sires, our sons are gone.

O Thou who made those heroes dare
To die, and leave their children free, --
Bid Time and Nature gently spare
The shaft we raised to them and Thee.

Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Concord Hymn"

Power
It's about the power to control not only Americans but everyone else as well. This is nothing more than a power grab by the worlds political elite. Less disposable income and the restrictions imposed by green technologies may serve to permanently limit out freedoms. Maybe there is something to the idea that we are becoming a prison planet. Usually I ascribe that kind of thought to the conspiracy theorists and millenarian cults but maybe they have a point other than the one on their heads.

Unless we start becoming much smarter about the people we elect we may find ourselves without any freedoms. We could find ourselves the property of the state, just another piece of government chattel.

Global warming is just the latest scam to collectivize the worlds population and control it. World socialism on the march.

why don't you learn a little about GW?
"It's about the power to control not only Americans but everyone else as well."
Actually, quite the opposite. Currently, we are all being strangled by oil companies (Chevron, $50 billion profit last year) who are raking in your hard earned dollars and they're Lovin' it. Can someone explain how a shift away from energy reliance on big greedy oil companies is going to take away power from the North American citizen?

If anything, people opposed to to being controlled by an oppressive larger force (be it governments, corporations) should welcome this move away from an expensive dependence on fossil fuels and towards an independent energy production system in which each one of you could be completely energy independent -- producing your own power from sunshine (about 800 W/square meter, more than enough to power your needs).

But, alas, no one ever accused conservatives of being particularly bright or forward thinking.
Currently, feasible technology for solar power is available, at an *almost* competitive rate. With energy prices rising, and China mass producing solar panels (look at who's at the front of the innovation curve -- China, not the US. So much for the great innovation capability of the US capitalist system. We're all too busy fighting over whether GW is real and blaming everyone else for our own problems, rather than just sucking it up and moving on to the future).

Unless we move towards alternative energy methods, of which there are many feasible and cost-competitive options, energy is not going to go down in price. That has nothing to do with "greeny" GW policies, it has to do with peak oil. There isn't enough fossil fuels around to supply the world's growing economy.

GW
right on Norm!!!

Americans have become
Like a joke we used to tell one another in the Army.

All about how brave we were to face the enemy and it went like this:

"There we were.......3 against a 1000
Toughest 3 we ever fought".


Individualism takes courage to face the world as it really is, something our fathers had to do and faced it honestly.
People today cower in their fears of government, of the world, and all the problems this generation is producing.

America is like a neighborhood that is run by a street gang who threaten the residents with their fears, pay off chump, or we will hurt you.

The residents then give up their rights to determine their own monetary policy, and wilt under threats from the gang members.

This is what our government has become, a power to fear, not protect.
Except for the residents who have bowed the knee in fear to the thugs.

hmm
when the government MAKES me buy mercury light bulbs are they then going to have a special pick-up by hazmat for these used bulbs when they burn out at tax payers expense?? what fools we have running our Country today GGGRRRRRRRRRRR!

We don't know much
The earth, solar system, & the galaxy are always in flux, whether we preceive them or not.

We can slash CO2 output to 0, but China is bringing 5 coal-fired power plants online a mon. and ea. month adding its energy use equal to one year in Fr.

The mid-Atlantic had a very mild winter. Chic. was still getting a ft. of snow a wk. at Easter. Next year it could be reversed. In 2005, no one predicted Katrina, but for 2006 and 2007, terrible storms were predicted during hur. season. Nothing happened. 15 major storms have just been predicted for the 2008 season. Eventually, the prediction will be right.

Warmer climate prob. means a growing season again on Greenland. Maybe the drought in the Am. SE will continue, which is bad for GA, but there was a terrible drought in VA in the early 1600s at the settlement of Jametown, and we were in the midst of a severe cooling then.

What we do not know about weather/ climate change would fill TH for years and not cover it all.

I well remember the blizzards of '78 and '79 in NJ and the doom and gloom positied then--another ice age, loss of growing seasons and arahle land, world starvation, population explosion, yadda. Anyone remember the Club of Rome prognostications in 1976? None happened: world depletion of oil by 2000, world war over water res., famine, mass starvation in large nations like China. Instead, China is thriving, hogging world resources, and looking to be a major ec. force worldwide.


One of the gang supporters
Shows up:

mudmucker writes: 12:34 PM


Unless we move towards alternative energy methods, of which there are many feasible and cost-competitive options, energy is not going to go down in price. That has nothing to do with "greeny" GW policies, it has to do with peak oil. There isn't enough fossil fuels around to supply the world's growing economy.
------
All lies to intimidate
Pure and genuine Bull****

the article is untrue
You all seem to revel in your self declared scientific understanding of GW and how that science disproves teh concerns over GW. Lemmee guess ... you saw "The Great Global Warming Swindle" right? And now you're all experts on the science and how it disproves GW? That movie was full of outright lies and so illogical that they actually disprove their own argument in the movie. Despite everyone's insistence here that science does not supporting GW concerns, no one has actually presented any of that evidence.

"Average global temperatures stabilized in 1998, and then fell 1.1 degrees F the past twelve months, satellite measurements show." This is not true, at least the first part, I'm not sure about the second. 1998 was by far the warmest year on record, and it it was taken out of the data base the temperatures would still be climbing over the last 10 years. It's this selective manipulation of statistics that basically constitutes lying.

For a more complete graph see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Instrumental_Temperature _Record.png

Warmer is better
Not that GW is happening, but if it was, it would mean longer growing seasons, more rain, more bio-productivity, more bio-diversity, bumper crop yields, less winter heating costs, and a host of other positives.

Where is most of the food grown globally today? In the tropics, not in the boreal regions. The hottest place in the country, Imperial Valley, produces the most food per acre.

The demand for ethanol has led to soaring food prices in 3rd-world countries where the poorest of the poor cannot afford corn or rice anymore. Elitist American eco-nazis are not only raising taxes here at home, they are punishing the poor worldwide.

Driessen is a clear voice of reason. Read his books. He is no newcomer to these issues. The man deserves a Nobel Prize, far more than Algore or the IPCC.

the article is untrue

"over thousands of years, rising temperatures preceded higher atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, by hundreds of years – the exact opposite of climate chaos hypotheses."
Actually, that isn't really true. This is the fundamental argument of "the Great Global Warmign Swindle" and it actually disproves their own argument. Temperatures *sometimes* precede CO2 concs. But not always. If you look at the graphs there is a very strong correlation between CO and temp., but it is not a nice gradual curve where one leads to the other. These peaks and troughs go up and down very quickly, from one semi-equilibrium to another. This is eveidence for a positive feedback relationship. It's not that one factor (temp) is leading CO2, it is that both are moving together, and one impacts the other. This confirms the worst fears of GW scientists because it confirms a positive feedback relationship, which means that as CO2 rises temp will go up, which will trigger even more CO2 release, etc etc, until a new "equilibrium" is reached. The problem is, that new equilibrium could be one with 20 feet higher sea levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co2-temperature-plot.svg

Yes the AGW spouters have shown up
to hawk their speil. The all should be locked up for one of two possible reasons. Either they are criminals in search of a fraudulent buck or they are so stupid they can not be allowed outside without a keeper.

mudmucker
no...........we're just not as smart as you

Government policy
Is intentional obstruction to the available energy.
Count the ways, and use a calculator cause you will need one.

Energy crisis is government policy

to Mike the Forester
As a fellow forester, I can't help but find your conclusions disturbing and simplistic.

"more rain"? No one knows for sure, maybe some parts will, maybe others won't.

"more biodiversity"? I don't follow that.

"The demand for ethanol has led to soaring food prices in 3rd-world countries" True, but I doubt you'd find many "eco-Nazi's" promoting biofuels, quite to the contrary. Biofuels are being promoted by large agriculture megacorporations who see the profit to be made with oil so expensive.

With increased temps we would have more tropical diseases, and one other thing you didn't mention -- much higher sea levels, which just might negate any productive land gains in the cooler latitudes with an all around decrease in land area.

I'm done with Newt
I saw the ad today for the first time. Sorry Newt. You have crossed the line and we are no longer allies.

At 45 years of age, I am done voting for anyone who supports unconstitutionality. No Hillary, No Barak, No McCain.

Never. Never. Never. Ever Again.

Even in the absurd event that AGW were real - my federal gov't has no authority to require me to do anything about it. At least Nancy & Newt are simply suggesting we should take action of our own accord. I get the strong feeling my fed gov't won't be simply suggesting I pay more taxes or change my lifestyle.

The revolution is one day closer and today I think it can't come soon enough. Yes, I would love to see Ron Paul emerge as the only voice of moral decency running for president. He is the only candidate that is running for the sake of freedom, not for his own power and glory. He is the only one that is for a limiting the powers of the fed gov't to those enumerated in the
Constitution. He's the only one that is willing to play by the rules.


to Howser
So then why don't you put in some effort and learn about Global Warming? You have the greatest educational tool ever invented right at your fingertips.

mudmucker
I know all I need to know about it sir

to Talent
"Government policy
Is intentional obstruction to the available energy.
Count the ways, and use a calculator cause you will need one.

Energy crisis is government policy"

I can't help but wonder why you are not mentioning Chevron's patent on the electric car battery (what in the world is an oil company doing with a patent on a competing technology that would reduce your reliance on their expensive oil?????) They bought this patent from GM, after they developed it for their successful EV1 electric car. Has Texaco/Chevron brought this technology to market for the benefit of American citizens? Yeah right.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2= HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G &l=50&s1=6969567.PN.&OS=PN/6969567&RS=PN/6969567

You seen convinced that government is the obstructor. In some ways they are, since the government is largely a puppet for corporate interests, and those interests want you to continue buying expensive oil.

Of course
mudmucker writes: 12:54 PM
to talent
"All lies to intimidate
Pure and genuine Bull****"

Can you provide some numbers or evidence to support that claim?
------
ts:
But why play your silly game?
You already know them.

I have come to the place I am done with arfuing about numbers with intentional liars.
So all I expect from the tax hustlers is to use numbers to lie anyway.
Its what they do, their nature is to lie.
Truth does not respect their lies, so the truth is the last thing they want to talk about and acknowledge.

Global warming is about taxing.
Thats all there is to it

to Howser
"I know all I need to know about it sir" Then you wouldn't have any problems reconciling the issues I have raised in my previous posts?

to talent
"But why play your silly game?
You already know them."

On one hand, the theme of this article and subsequent postings is that the science and numbers do not support concerns over GW. You all seem to take pride in this. Yet when prodded to actually show some of this science and numbers, you then revert back to "I am done with arguing about numbers with intentional liars."

Seems pretty hypocritical and convenient to me.

Crisis, created crisis by Government
Is Americans problem, and the problem in all the earth.
Food shortage is a government creation
Energy is a government sponsored policy
Housing sub prime loans disaster is a government created crisis.
The global war on terrorism is a government created war.

Government is the problem today, and the exact opposite of the solution for a damn thing

Sounds like Chevron knows
that oil is going to evolve into car batteries, since, if given enough time, anything is possible.

Back to reality - Let's see: the gov't is restricting oil companies from drilling for oil and Mudmucher wonders why they would be investing in other technologies. Does it really require a Ph.D to figure this one out?


Mudmucher
Sorry you weren't here over the last year when all of your "science" questions were refuted. There will always be some neanderthalls that hang on to outdated science and I do expect you to catch up now that you are here.

Welcome

mudmucker
yes mud.....you are right again............and so is Al Gore. we're all gonna die because people like you with all your infinite intellect say so. you are the ONLY ones with the true facts. I don't argue points with your kind anymore. so sorry, I would like to chat more but I have to make lunch for my kids, then go talk to the rocks outside. tootles

All questions are answered already

"But why play your silly game?
You already know them."

mudmucker writes: 1:12 PM
to talent

On one hand, the theme of this article and subsequent postings is that the science and numbers do not support concerns over GW. You all seem to take pride in this. Yet when prodded to actually show some of this science and numbers, you then revert back to "I am done with arguing about numbers with intentional liars."

Seems pretty hypocritical and convenient to me.
--------

So now the name calling comes, as that is part of the intimidation of liars, as you are one.

So carry on with the name calling, I do not mind and respect your right to call me and all like me names.

You actually think it wins arguments and changes truth.
I do not mind talking to a liar like you, and giving you some respect for your right to lie.
Lie, accuse all you want to.
When you get done with all your lying, the truth is not going to be moved, nor will I.

Global warming is about tax.
That all one needs to know.
Now carry on with your lying "numbers".

to Fuzzy
``the gov't is restricting oil companies from drilling for oil and Mudmucher wonders why they would be investing in other technologies.``

The only investment made by ChevronéTexaco in other technologies is their intitial purchase of this patent to keep it out of the public domain so that you cannot have access to it. They have done nothing with it since its purchase. It expires in 2014 so after that you can expect to see a flood of electric cars available.(the technology was available over 10 years ago, but they don`t want you to know that or have access to it). Along with solar panels, these two will mesh nicely and the energy crisis will be on its way to being over, and American citizens will be energy independent. But not before 20 unnecessary years of high oil prices and oil company megaprofits at your expense.

Seriously ----- look at your cell phone and consider what it can do.

Maybe...
after liberals and RINOs sink our economy the morons who keep electing them might just vote for a conservative provided we have such a choice. We the people are screwing ourselves and have no one else to blame.

Howser
``you are the ONLY ones with the true facts. I don't argue points with your kind anymore``

Actually, quite the contrary, as I have said, the facts are all out there readily available on the internet, you just have to put in the effort and try to filter which information you are reading is biased or not. But sorry to say it, once again it is proving true that conservatives are not very good at actually learning about what they are talking about before they decide to spout off garbage on the internet, TV, or radio waves. And when presented with challenges to support the claims they are making, they just try to deflect the request and shift focus somewhere else.

Sheesh
Chevron owns the technology, which is so promising it will make them billions in profit, but they don't want to use that technology and make those billions because they hate the American people. Is that your point MudMucker?

orlandocajun
that's what I'm waiting for.

to talent
``So now the name calling comes, as that is part of the intimidation of liars, as you are one.``

I`m quite astonished by this statement, if you were to go back through the posts and tally up who is doing the name calling. But really, I couldn`t care less about the name calling. It`s a political website about a contentious issue - of course you`re going to have name calling. I prefer to focus on the science and the facts.

You accuse me of lying. Yet, as seems to be the rule on this website, you provide not one single number or shred of evidence to support this claim.

to Fuzzy
``Chevron owns the technology, which is so promising it will make them billions in profit, but they don't want to use that technology and make those billions because they hate the American people. Is that your point MudMucker?``

No, they wouldn`t make that much money from offfering electric cars to the population. Because then you`d never need to buy another drop of oil. Guess which avenue is more profitable -- $100 oil, or electric car sales.

What they have done is allowed other companies to use the technology in *small* batteries, i.e. for hybrid cars, but the batteries are not large enough to power a fully electric car, and the hybrids are by necessity more complicated and expensive, and not that much more fuel efficient than a regular car, so they do not represent a major threat to US oil consumption. It`s interesting how Chevron allows auto companies to use the batteries in only small sizes, but not for a fully electric car. That`s pretty obviously manipulation of their patent rights.

They aren`t doing this because they hate the American people, what an absurd statement. They are doing this as part of a calculated strategy to maximize profits (that`s what corporations are required to do for their shareholders) and increase their power. And the way to maximize profits in this market is to stall emerging alternative energy technologies and watch oil prices go up, and then rake in the profits when you own a large portion of th oil industry.

Mudmucker
How about nearly every article about global warming on junkscience.com.

And once again. You come to the party late. That is why you are getting so many replies that don't care to debate you. Its already occured over and over and over again. Others with nearly identical pov's as yours have used the same debating tactics and the same acusations that agw deniers are unwilling to do the research.

Its just not true. You aren't going to convince anyone to change their stance on the issue. In fact, when the global warming articles first appeared on TH, your view represented a majority of the posts. Only after more research and information was available, did the trend reverse.

And it had nothing to do with my cell phone.

Government is organized crime.
Whenever I tell people that what government often does is not much different than what organized crime syndicates do, I often hear strong defenses.

"It's not theft! It's not extortion!"

Yeah? Well watch what happens if you don't pay your taxes.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, nor moral. Theft is still theft if the person from whom an item or money is taken does not approve. Most of our money is withheld, so we never get a chance to choose.

There are some things I want government to pay for; Defense, Law Enforcement, Border Enforcement, Roads and Infrastructure, and that's pretty much it. Given government's track record on other things, I vehemently do not want to pay for anything other than what's outlined above.

Their record on Education, for instance, is abysmal, as is welfare and other social spending. Why the hell should I trust government to handle environmental affairs? Especially when they're all too willing to confiscate and control one's private property in the name of some species who happens to live there.

By virtue of the fact that government wants to raise taxes on something means they do not want anyone to curtail usage. Indeed, they depend on people using the taxed item to generate additional revenue.

mudmucker
writes, "Despite everyone's insistence here that science does not supporting GW concerns, no one has actually presented any of that evidence."

This is the exact tactic employed by the global warmism zealots and the politicians riding the wave. Prove its not true!! Dude, one cannot prove nothingness scientifically. The burden is on the global warmism crowd to prove their scaremongering theory has any basis in reality. Theories must be proven with evidence.

In science, if evidence supporting hypothesis A is lacking, then the null hypothesis is correct.

To state that one must prove that nothing dangerous is happening is the height of unsound science and convoluted mental gymnastics.



Mudmucker
I sure hope you have no say in your business's plans for profitability.

You suggest that an oil company would rather spend its resources on what they percieve as an eventual dead-end (oil) instead of bolstering their future stability by pouring more funding into something with a huge upside.

I see why you don't appreciate corporations. You don't understand them.

Wayfinder
It is what it is. How could anyone deny that our Gov't legalizes activities for itself that it criminalizes for it's citizens? Its a daily occurance and it is unconstitutional.

Further, we have a supposedly weighted originalist SCOTUS, yet congress is never challenged on its unconstitutional activities.

to Fuzzy
``You suggest that an oil company would rather spend its resources on what they percieve as an eventual dead-end (oil) instead of bolstering their future stability by pouring more funding into something with a huge upside.``

To the contrary, as has been demonstrated many times, corporations are largely driven to maximize profits within the next 4 years or so. They rarely have long term visions.

After 2014 when their patent expires they will not have a corner on the market because it will be public technology. Why would they try to compete in this then when they can instead maximize profits until thenÉ.

If they teach it
in public school, it must be true.

to Hitchhiker
``Prove its not true!! Dude, one cannot prove nothingness scientifically. The burden is on the global warmism crowd to prove their scaremongering theory has any basis in reality. Theories must be proven with evidence. ``

I almost completley agree. encourage you to follow my links in my previous posts.

To flip your statement around, considering the extremely strong correlation between CO2 and temperature over the Earth`s history, it is incumbent on global warming deniers to `prove` their hypothesis that increasing CO2 concs WON`T have an impact on climate.


We can already prove CO2
increases happen long after temp increases & not before. Why would anyone still be saying that c02 increases preceed temp increases? Unless they just want AGW to be true so badly it hurts.

Dubious Partners
Government, Oil Corporations and Evironmentalists.
All working together to limit, restrict and control energy.

Oh NO!
Cannot be, says the believer.

They are one another's enemies says the manipulated citizen, and the propaganda masters.

Look at the NUMBERS!
Numbers cannot be manipulated, they are as truthful as is 2+2.

Look at the arguments! says the true believer.

The government taxes the corporations, the corporations lose to government tax, says the believer.
The environmentalists saves the planet and keeps out the corporations in building refineries, says the believer.

All have very good points and must find a compromise says the duped citizen.

The compromise?
Oil,gas and energy prices goes up ands up on them all working together.

End result is higher and higher costs, the TRUE goal and what they are in partnership to accomplish.
All the while they act as if they have different goals, ha ha.

Believe what you want to, you will anyway.
As for me, I see it for what it is.

The bottom line.
No matter what comes out of their mouth, the end result and the bottom line is prices go up, and you and I pay for it all.

While they increase their own wealth.
So kiss their butts all you want to, I am not going to join you, who have bought into all this present day lies from all of them.

Government is lying
Oil companies are lying
Environmentalists are lying.
Media is lying
Politicians are lying
And suckers swallow all the bilge from one or the other




to Fuzzzy
``How about nearly every article about global warming on junkscience.com.``

I have read many articles there and on other similar websites, and while I am the first one to argue that skepticism is good, the articles there really do tend to be `junk science``.

``Its already occured over and over and over again. Others with nearly identical pov's as yours have used the same debating tactics and the same acusations that agw deniers are unwilling to do the research. ``

What debating tacticsÉ Asking to see evidence to support one`s claimsÉ Do you have no idea how a helathy debate worksÉ

Once again, you are deflecting the request. In essense, you are saying that debate is over. This seems incredibly ironic, coming from a global warming denier, of the camp who is constantly crying murder over how they believe the media and governments have ended the debate over GW and shut out dissenting opinion. Pretty unbelievable.

Surely you could provide ONE link, ONE shred of evidence to support your claims.

Mudmucker
You mean we should continue on with me providing you links that you dismiss and you providing me with links that I dispute. Sounds wonderful. Really.

Your blanket dismissal of any article from any source that is linked to Junkscience.com, even from peer reviewed journals is sufficient evidence of your bias.

No thanks.

to Fuzzy
Your first link ius to a book. It has not one number or shred of evidence in that link. It is all based on political arguments. Please reference NUMBERS, GRAPHS, EVIDENCE. The internet is out there, surely you can find something.

Your second link talks about spruce trees growing 9000 years ago which suggests that climate back then was warmer than previously thought. It`s interesting, but I`m not sure what relevance this has to the relationship beween CO2 and temps

Your third link talks about the effects of the urban heat island leading to erroneous temperature measurements. The IPCC discusses this in their report and states that they take this into account, and that it is not statistically significant.

And how does this account for the increase in ocean temperaturesÉ

Wayfinder writes:
"Yeah? Well watch what happens if you don't pay your taxes."

But, Wayfinder, taxes are voluntary! It says so right on your W-2s "Voluntary Withholding."

You can "voluntarily" fork over your cash, or you can "voluntarily" go to prison. See? You DO have a choice!

LOL. Like you said, extortion.

Mudmucker
If there are TWO sets of contradicting "facts" you have a theory. Not facts. The debate is OBVIOUSLY not over, as much as you would like it to be.

What research did you do? Rent "An Inconvenient Truth?"

What makes your "facts" more true than our "facts?" That's not political? You happen to be a liberal, aren't you? THAT'S convenient.

to Fuzzy
``You mean we should continue on with me providing you links that you dismiss and you providing me with links that I dispute. Sounds wonderful. Really.

Your blanket dismissal of any article from any source that is linked to Junkscience.com, even from peer reviewed journals is sufficient evidence of your bias.``

You mean I should continue providing links showing ACCEPTED (even by GW deniers!) CHARTS, GRAPHS, NUMBERS, EVIDENCE, linking CO2 and temperature, and that you should continue posting links to either political book websites or interesting scientific tidbits that don`t really have much significance in the broader debateÉ Are you admitting that you have lost the debateÉ

Actually, I said they ``really do tend to be `junk science```` That`s not exactly a blanket dismissal. Many peer-reviewed articles turn out to be either bad or dead-end science. That`s how science works.

MudMucker
And I bet you are liberal just for this very one topic, right? Your sureness of YOUR propaganda has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you are a liberal, right?

Go away.

MudMucker
Our government is screwing us without yuor help, thank you very much. I don't understand your anger here. You are getting what you want, aren't you?

Vindex
``If there are TWO sets of contradicting "facts" you have a theory. Not facts. The debate is OBVIOUSLY not over, as much as you would like it to be.``

Actually, to the contrary, I do not want the debate over. As said earlier, I am the first to argue for open debate. What I would like is for the deniers to provide some real evidence to support their claims, since that is how debate works, and I want to learn more. So far, they have failed.

``What research did you do? Rent "An Inconvenient Truth?"

I have not seen an Inconvenient Truth. I prefer to stick with science and facts. I read the reports by the IPCC, and believe it or not Wikipedia has a wealth of information that I have found to be on the whole pretty fair. I have also taken many university courses on Earth science. I read articles on junkscience and CO2 science.com I follow links provided by all players in the GW debate. I read articles on science.com

What makes your "facts" more true than our "facts?" That's not political? You happen to be a liberal, aren't you? THAT'S convenient.``

Because, once again I am sounding like a broken record, I have provided NUMBERS, GRAPHS, EVIDENCE. The deniers on this site have not. This article is about the science underlying GW theory, and that is what I have provided.


Yes, I`m a liberal. Liber...AL liber...TY. Liberals fought hard for your freedom to have an opinion on GW.

I am going outside now, I`ll try to return in a few hours.

Mudmucker
Those links were not a response to you. And you know full well there are innumerable volumns of links available from both sides of the issue.

Providing you with more links, which you can look up for yourself, so that you can dismiss them out of hand is a waste of time.

Find someone else to play that fools' game with you.

No. I think I will just watch you make your case and dismiss any links you provide because I don't like them. That way we will be on an even playing field.

It's amazing
There are still some hangers oners buying in the AGW scam.

It's a scam! There will not be a 20 feet sea level riase. We are not going to burn up.

What a bunch of idiots. You need to go back to telling ghost stories in the dark. At least there you are not a danger to the rest of mankind.

The real scary thing is this whole scam was created to enslave the world's people and reduce the population. For cripes sake take off your tin foil hats and start thinking for a change. Or at the very least take off your blinders and start looking around.

AGWers need to be sent to an asylum where they will be safe they and wallow around in their delusions all they want.

A political book
that identifies highly regarded scientists who dispute AGW. Perhaps there are graphs in the book? Let me know. I'll be dying to find out.
Maybe they will be a precious as the graph showing how temp increases preceed co2 increases by hundreds of years.


mudmucker writes:
"Because, once again I am sounding like a broken record, I have provided NUMBERS, GRAPHS, EVIDENCE. The deniers on this site have not. This article is about the science underlying GW theory, and that is what I have provided."

Yet you dismiss all the NUMBERS, GRAPHS, EVIDENCE presented for the other side? Yeah, real open minded.

"Yes, I`m a liberal. Liber...AL liber...TY. Liberals fought hard for your freedom to have an opinion on GW."

Oh, Good Lord.... That's it. I am done talking to you. You are either a mental case or a troll. Maybe both.

"I am going outside now, I`ll try to return in a few hours."

Please, don't bother. We won't miss you. I promise.

Island
How true, and dare I say, "how obvious".

I think the thing that saddens me most is that one day, the Goreites will be faced with the reality that AGW was just another in a neverending series of false alarmist crises but will just as easily buy into the next one too.

Its encoded in the liberal dna. A utopian desire for all the world to come together to overcome anything. A desire so overwhelming that if the crisis isn't there, it should be invented.


"Liberals fought hard for your freedom"
Yeah. In Canada.

Fighting hard to avoid service is not how conservatives define fighting.

Or did you mean fought hard to deny liberty, free speech, freedom of religion, freedom from gov't tyranny?

Besides, I estimate that you have only been of age for service for about 3-5 years based on what you write.

Why arfe you guys wasting your
time arguing with this isiot mudhead. He is just a liberal troll who has been here arguing the same set of lies before under a different name.

CDF asks
Run the scenario with only half the people, and then what?
That is why the liberals are working to help the Islamo-fascist-terrorist murderers who will reduce the population by half, including eliminating the liberals who are betraying the US for the terrorists, but who expect to be made kings by the terrorists.

Gorebull warring
The reason that so much of this planet has had drought for so many centuries is that we’ve been in an ice age, and the water needed for normal condensation has been frozen into glaciers. Glaciers are frozen water needed as condensation for barren and frozen lands of this planet, causing drought and flooding. When glaciers melt, some water runs into the oceans. Some water thaws the ground below where the glacier was, and soaks into the ground. Some water evaporates into the upper atmosphere where it becomes normal rainfall for the whole world.

The heat of the sun, and the absence of cold from glaciers and sea ice will cause more water to be evaporated from the oceans, lakes, and rivers into the upper atmosphere than there presently is; and the winds will blow it evenly around the world, providing normal rainfall world-wide, even where there presently is drought, and barren and frozen land, preventing flooding.

The worldwide rainfall will cause long-dormant seeds in barren lands to sprout and grow into new plants: The best way to go green. The new plants will inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen, which we breathe. There will be so many new plants, that we might have to increase the amount of carbon dioxide we generate, to provide enough for all of them

A glacier in Greenland is melting, returning the land to the way it was a millennium ago. Larger crop yields are already the result, and the codfish have returned. Put the UN there.

Snow fell before leaves, and a month before winter started. Parts of the country and the world have record low temperatures and record amounts of snow and ice. We’re entering another ice age. How soon will Greenland be frozen again and the codfish gone? We need global warming as soon as possible.

"cap" = rationing.
"Cap & trade" is a scam within a scam, but somehow or other they figure we'll swallow it for a while since it obscures the issue & for a time will allow people to keep burning fuel by paying more for "offsets," until the dogma & all its presumptions get instituted & set in stone ike Socialist Insecurity.

"C & T" is essentially rationing, but buying & selling of excess ration tickets ("offsets" or "carbon credits") would be permitted. How many "credits" each person would be allotted as their ration of 'carbon' would be set by the government subject to activist lawsuits by the greenies. Since there's no hard objective science to indicate just how much to allot everyone in the 1st place, the allotment will be totally arbitrary, i.e. set by political expediency.

At some point, they'll reduce our allotments.

Of course the ruling elite & the groups they want to favor will get bigger allotments than the rest of us on a variety of pretexts, just watch. It would be like WWII & the folks with "war important" jobs. But this time, the war will never end, & we're the enemy.

Plain fact is, C&T is a meaningless farce that like ethanol just shows this is all about establishing totalitarianism. If the anthrogenic climate change theory were correct, & manmade CO2 levels actually had to be reduced to 1990 levels or less, the cap would have to be set so low there'd be nothing left over to trade; in fact people would starve & freeze.

Don't Tread On Me
The Cap and Trade scheme is just a new way of peddling influence. Noting could be more inviting to corruption.

Don't Tread On Me
"At some point, they'll reduce our allotments."

If you believe, as the AGW "acclaimers" purport to believe: that AGW is occurring; and, that the "ideal" global average temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration have been exceeded; and, that it is essential to return to the ideal to avoid a climate catastrophe; then, CO2 emissions must STOP globally. If you accept the logic, the ultimate global CO2 "cap" must approach zero asymptotically, or the carbon tax must be large enough to force carbon emissions to approach zero asymptotically.

Try to find an AGW "acclaimer" who will acknowledge that reality. Better to "sneak up on it" 7% at a time, rather than "face the music".

And the republicants support it!
Lets not mince words or fail to point out blame. Every theiving, leftist, liberal , treasonous pink elephant is supporting this hoax!
Schwartzentraitor, Global Warming Bush, Mc (no brain)Cain. Slimy Newt Gangwrench et al are all on board! Once again the know nothing, do noting, accomplish nothing republicrimes are riding down the bridge to the far left, the bridge that they themselves built. Wheeee nipartisanship means we are all socialists now!

After being a life long republican, I quit! 30 years of treason and caving in is enough!
I will not vote for anyone But Ron Paul this Nov. I will write him in.

Since republican'ts only act like semi-constitutionalists when a democrud is president, its time to elect a democrud!

The pundits and voters of the lessor of two communists can go jump in the lake!

The party is dead, the modern Pink Elephants killed it!

firetoice: bottom line
Agreed re the "ideal" limit on CO2 emissions. That was basically my point in the last paragraph.

However, it doesn't matter because the real purpose of this has nothing to do with "climate change." They want to micromanage our energy usage overall, & ration our freedom.

Taxation will just be the bare beginnning of it. I find it hard to imagine any leftist big-gov agenda item that CAN'T somehow hitch a ride on AGWT & energy restrictions.

Victimology? Give the "victim" groups more carbon credits as "reparations" or a compensation for their deprived status. (thus buying their vote)

"Income inequity?" Make'em buy more "carbon credits" to do the same stuff.

'New urbanism,' "sprawl", & forcing parents to send kids to schools run & assigned by the elite? Make it difficult & expensive to move to suburbs or to live any distance from one's job. Also, parents have to give private schools CC's to run; public juvenile zoos / indoctrination centers will be exempt.

Control peoples' movements? Fuel & auto use restrictions, GPS tracking ostensibly for mileage based tax assessments, public transit only goes where the elite think you should go.

Control commerce & industry thru issuing or witholding CC's.

Wanna hand out favors & buy support? "Carbon credits" cost the issuing authority nothing.

Endless possibilities! We could one day find ourselves using our carbon ration for the juice to have Internet discussions like this. (Leftie propaganda blessed by the elite, e.g. AGWT cheerleading, will be given CC's gratis)


Oops - More Deniers

We've got our eye on you, pols
"Reasonable and responsible" global warming legislation is a contradiction in terms. There is nothing rational about sacrificing our well-being to unsubstantiated assertions of apocalyptic doom.

Not that we're really surprised by the Counterfeit Cowboy's capitulation. But Newt Gringrich is a different story. He turned hard left on this issue. I wonder if he is being blackmailed into going along with this garbage, if someone has something over him; or if he is just pragmatically jumping on a public issue bandwagon.

Either way, any Republican pol who goes along with this scheme is going on our s**t list. We give you fair warning, GOP.

If the debate
is not over as Muddweller agreed, then why are we writing laws and legislation that will affect millions of people when the debate is not over?

Wendy
Newt is first and foremost a republican. If the current GOP talking points including GW as a cause, then Newt will mouth it. His very career and influence depends on it.

This is my entire point. Party loyalty is just plain stupid. This subject just illustrates why.

As I said above, Townhall will be "falling in line" soon, as well. Most of the shills we are familiar with right here on this thread will be preaching about it, arguing about how the liberals aren't doing enough to stop global warming, etc...

And they will stare blankly at you when you point out how republicans were against it once.

Wendy writes:
"Either way, any Republican pol who goes along with this scheme is going on our s**t list. We give you fair warning, GOP."

I think they have made it pretty clear that they do not WANT or need conservatives in their party.

Good luck with your threats.

I am an
executive committee member in my state GOP, and I can tell you HONESTLY that they actually look for the conservatives that aren't going to tow the line and purposefully push you out. They send emails to other members with special meetings, and use a list to exclude those conservative names so they don't show up.

They REALLY did this during the primary season. There was a straw poll for Mitt Romney and they sent out a special email to only his supporters explaining that they could purchase up to 20 tickets and could do so in advance of the straw poll. The email and letters everyone else got said tickets must be purchased AT the dinner -- one per customer. :)

GOP: Conservatives need not apply!

SUPPORT GLOBAL WARMING

.....Ron ...

.....You are correct ...a warmer Earth is good for mankind ...that is why the Libs and Eco-nuts are against it ...they hate mankind and humans in general ...

.....Consider joining my org. "HATE" (Humans ARE the Environment) ...our mission is to hunt and eat endangered species to help Nature to make extinct species that can no longer adapt to our modern World ...I am currently selling bumper stickers to support the cause of a warmer Earth ...SAVE THE EARTH - SHOOT A POLAR BEAR .....COLOSSUS

Sorry
I meant to say there was a straw poll dinner. Not "for Mitt Romney." It was for all candidates.

And I am not saying anything in particular against Romney, just that this happened. And I only found out about the two separate letters after the fact when it was brought to my attention by a member.

It might explain things to know that most of the establishment here were hired Romney campaign staffers.

So, it's: money, power, the GOP, and in the far off distance, the republican platform that are priorities. In that order.

Needless to say, I won't be consdered for committee member come August. No hard feelings about that on my part. I have divorced myself of the GOP already. They have been like an adulterous partner, anyway.

VINDEX

.....You are correct ...

.....It took me awhile to figure it out, doubts began when GW supported Specter in Pa against a true Conservative in the Primaries ...

.....Now it all makes sense ...all this confusing and contradictory behavior by the GOP ...they no longer want hard core conservatives in the Party .....COLOSSUS

Conservatives
Get in the way of power. It would take a pretty rare strength to forgoe power and wealth on principle alone. The Republicans have figured this out. There is money to be made in our system and power to be gained as long as you please the right people and don't interfere with growth of government, the merger of corporations with government, and globalism.

"Shut your mouth and be a good little republican, and then we will let you play."

BTW, the democratic party is no different, of course. I am just more concerned with what should be my party. The dems are lost from their platform on up. I think criticism of their policies goes without saying. :) I just want opposition for the sake of balance -- not excuses and "compromise." The party elite are A LOT more alike than we want to admit.

Someone made a good example here last week. They were saying it reminded them of the old sheepdog and wolf cartoon. They would beat the crap out of each other while on the clock (in front of the cameras), and then go out for beers together when it was over. I would give them credit for that great observation, but I don't remember who said it.

Again, the point is that party loyalism is just stupid, right or left. There are plenty of sports to waste that kind of energy on.

My computer uses too much energy!!!!!!
mudmucker writes: Saturday, April, 19, 2008 1:01 PM
to Howser
So then why don't you put in some effort and learn about Global Warming? You have the greatest educational tool ever invented right at your fingertips.


Because, it uses too much energy to use my computer. I haven't bought enough 'carbon offsets' or 'energy offsets', or whatever the greenies make me buy if I want to use any energy.
Besides, my computer is about to be repossessed
because my overdue taxes were 90% this year, and inflation was 500%, so I don't even have any money for my basic necessities. Much less a computer. Maybe I'll move to Africa, since it's been depopulated by the horrendous effects of the US economy's downfall. I might can start a whole new industrial revolution, that will in turn make Africa a world leader in inovation, that will help the rest of the 3rd world USA be fed and clothed.

Becky
:)

Could somebody answere
a question for me? All of you are saying you aren't voting for McCain because he's in bed with the libs. Can you name one candidate who has an ice cube's chance in helo of winning? If you can't Then say hello to Madame president and you can be flooded with illegals AND be broke at the same time.

Global Warming Tax
George Bush and his dunderhead cronies along with the DemoNazi Party have gotten this country in one hell'va mess. God have mercy on the upcoming generations. So much for the "Late Great United States."

eastlake joe writes:
"All of you are saying you aren't voting for McCain because he's in bed with the libs. Can you name one candidate who has an ice cube's chance in helo of winning? If you can't Then say hello to Madame president and you can be flooded with illegals AND be broke at the same time."

At least we can say we didn't vote *FOR* any of it.

I'll be damned if I am going to encourage and enable the slide left that the GOP is taking. You can hiss at me all that you want. I will NOT *FOR* this. Give me a chance to vote against it and I will.

The GOP doesn't own my vote, and it is way past time for us to get that point across. Vote for him if you want, but you are nothing more than an enabler. You will have NO right to complain about what you get. I won't hear it.

Sam
If they just followed the law, McCain would be disqualified anyway.

But this is the democrats election to lose. These people are fooling themselves if they think a republican is going to win in November. Not a chance. I am not saying that's a good thing, just the reality. And it is the GOPs own fault as well as the enablers. If we gave the people real conservative government, they would keep voting for it.

They voted for Bush I because of Reagan. They voted for Clinton because of Bush I.

If only the GOP would learn.

eastlake joe writes:
"If you can't Then say hello to Madame president and you can be flooded with illegals AND be broke at the same time."

If we are flooded with illegal aliens and the global warming BS of John McCain, we are going to go broke anyway.

Ecology is local, not national or global
All of my life LA has had smog. In order to change that, they would have to change the way they live in that bowl. However, it is easier to pretend that Wasjington or Detroit can relieve them of that duty.
We need a paradigm shift. It is decisions of local zoning boards that necesitate most driving. So, I say we could shut down the EPA. Every state has one, and confront problems where they occur not in fantasyland.

Some more facts for the
warmie criminals:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5164

Even more; this one
illustrates the some of the known fraulent lies promulgated by the UN Panel of politicians:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9340


Sam
Ron Paul is not the perfect answer, in my opinion, but is a MAJOR step in the right direction. I voted for Ron Paul in my state's primaries.

One thing to counter your assumption that Ron Paul would sweep anything: Ron Paul didn't get anywhere because the media, the GOP, AND the Dems actively worked against him. Which one do you think would change if he were to get the nomination?

I can imagine the media would still never let him address the nation even during the general, and the GOP is really courting Hillary as a republican, anyway.

Your assertion that Ron Paul would mop the floor with them tells me that you believe your vote counts. It doesn't. I think you underestimate the power of an entrenched government oligarchy that spans the dems, the reps, and the media.

Last year, I would have argued against this point, but: it is going to take a bloody revolution to restore our country to its founding principles. I have now SEEN the enemy and it is a much bigger beast than we could ever imagine.

Oops
The reason I say nothing would change if Ron Paul got the nomination, is that the same people at the top of the GOP are at the top of the Dems. They really don't care which party wins. They will still get what they want.

The two party system is just a smokescreen. They would have absolutely NO problem cutting Ron Paul's legs off, even if he were their party's candidate. Hence the reason that I said the reps are actively courting Hillary and planning to throw this election. The American people get to think they have spoken against the corruption of the Republicans and are momentarily placated. After 8 years of more destruction, they will get a republican to supposedly express their anger. And so on and so on.

It's all just a show. Until the entrenched oligarchy is removed, it will continue. "Hacking at the root" to be sure. We are just knocking leaves off it, right now.

The GOP
actually runs *democrats* against Ron Paul in his home district. The only reason that he ran as a libertarian in 1988 was because the GOP told him that they would work against him if he ran.

Ron Paul wants to put a stop to the unadultered power of the olgigarchy. Think they WANT to give up that power? If they could convince this entire nation (or at least make us believe the other 300 million people believed it) that Saddam was capable of creating a "mushroom cloud over manhattan" in an hour's notice, you believe stopping Ron Paul will be a problem for them?

Science is no different than religion..
“extraterrestrial factors like changes in the Earth’s irregular orbit around the sun, solar energy levels, and solar winds that appear to influence the level of cosmic rays reaching Earth, and thus the formation of cloud cover and penetration of infrared radiation from the sun” is most likely the correct answer. I have a question for you. Why is it that we, man, think that we can control any thing of the above? Why is it that the scientists must be right, because they are men, and the data they have come up with is not flawed (Flawed; see an M.D. for that proof)? Who died and said what they have figured out is 100% correct? Who? Science is no different than religion, it is a belief and nothing more, in that you put all your trust in the facts and figures man has created to be true just like a Bible. They cannot even get it right for Hurricanes let alone Tornados at NOAA, and you want the rest of us to believe that what the computer models say, that have been dreamed up by scientists, is correct. I do not have as much faith in man as you must. Man is deceitful, dishonest and corrupt at best and will do anything for or to get the almighty dollar and that would include selling their sole to the devil if that would get them more grants. The only thing I can see is “WE” the people, paying more money out of our pockets, for someone not to put something into or on products as to “GO GREEN” only so it can be labeled “ORGANIC or GREEN” and the rest of the world? Keeps right on a running and could care less what AMERICA thinks because we are no longer in the position of power of knowledge, just greed! It is all about the money to be made……

Taxes Should Be Voted On
It would not be necessary to make a suggestion to vote on tax increases, if the Congress and Senate complied with the Constitution. They do not so they need to be brought under control. No new taxes without the consent of the People. I cannot believe the open talk of stealing the People's money we hear today by our Representatives. They are thieves and therefore criminals.

Bush slime
Who calls this guy Bush a man with integrity? Who says so? Maybe the religious right. That's all. What a nutjob.

Another GOOD reason to stay home in November. In my rational moments, I cannot bring myself to countenance another RINO Republican. Just cannot do it.

THE GLOBAL GORENUTS
will be after more taxes to subsidize heat for "the poor" if one big volcano cooks off anywhere in the world. Wonder what their song will be then!

May not be a tax....
Warrior I hate to tell you this however, they do not need your okay to slap on “FEES” or “SIRCHARGES” for anything, only taxes. So, they may not tax you rather they may fee you instead, let’s say on every gallon of fuel you get!

King Liberal
No they are crooks and scam artists just like the other politicians. The hard evidence provided by real scientists and linked to by posters here unequivocally shows that the AGW arguments are not only not true, but are out and out fraud because the people developing it intentionally falsified data.

The one thing that is consistent in ALL of the so-called solutions to this non problem is that SOMEONE will make money on it and the average person will lose. In the case of the Lamocrat solution we will have a huge carbon tax. Note that none of the current bills that include a carbon tax have an equally offsetting tax decrease in order to make the solution revenue neutral. It has never been intended to be nothing more than a sorry excuse to raise taxes which will then be thrown in another socialist hole in the ground.

The other scheme is the Republicrat desire for a “cap and trade” scheme. This is better known as corruption 101 and “you give me support and I’ll give you a high cap that you can sell”. In the end all this does is invite influence peddling, corruption, and the end point of higher prices for all products.

And what really makes my *ss want to chew tobacco and spit is the fact that there is NO PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH and that becomes more obvious to anyone with half a brain every day. We will all be hit with higher electric bills, higher gas prices, and 8n general higher prices for everything. Once it is absolutely clear to even the stupidest person on the street that the whole thing was a scam will the government undo it??? Of course not. They haven’t undone the fraudulent Freon/ozone hole scam yet or the DDT sam or ANY of their other environmental scams.

This will not end until one of two things happens. We have another convention to turn out the politicians or the public gets fed up and starts shooting them. Under today’s rules you sure as h*ll can’t get them out of office.

I Remember the Oil Crisis ...
Such as sitting in a 3-block line of cars waiting my turn at the gas pump, praying there would be enough for my car sitting on empty. Praying I could last long enough with a "green" license until the "red" flag went down. Seeing gas prices zoom up to over $1/gal when the price had been in the .70s. Then, hearing that huge oil tankers were lined up in the Gulf and could not dock. Where was this "shortage?" Well, it was manufactured to drive prices higher, actually like a tax, don't you think?

So, then, that is the true crux of the matter; higher taxes, prices, and rationing of those things we take foregranted at this minute. I don't trust this government for a minute. I believe we will be monitored electronically for overuse of utilities for heating/AC. So, who decides for me. Well, if the price is too high, isn't that question moot? I guess it will bring the population of U.S. humans way, way down?

Denny
"I believe we will be monitored electronically for overuse of utilities for heating/AC."

They already are doing this:

http://mail.mtprog.com/CD_Layout/Day_3_23.06.06/1115-1300/I D59_Breton_final.pdf

Denny
That link is just about the technology and is old. I can't seem to locate the article about it being trial run in California that I read about last year. But, it IS being trialed here in the states.

damn Gore and Elites to hell
I curse them all to hell. F. bastards.

The Left Coast
"I believe we will be monitored electronically for overuse of utilities for heating/AC."

We are not far from it. If there is going to be any global warming tax or government monioring of power usage, you can be sure it will happen first at ground zero of socialism, California. I have spent the last month in California constructing one of their alternative fuel plants, ethanol. On my first night in town, the air conditioner in the motel room suddenly was cut off. I called the office, and they told me the air conditioning in every room is cut off at a centrally located thermostat from sunset to late morning the next day to conserve energy. I was furious and sweat all night. Every day since, I have learned a little more about the Left Coast. Taxes are outrageous, almost Canadian-like. Everything is taxed beyond anything one sees in other states. This morning, a gallon of gas was $4.45 at a station I drove by.

I have a suggestion for all liberals in the country. Move to California. It will be heaven for you. High taxes, the highest gas prices in the country to curb oil consumption, and the highest cost of living in the country. Gays are welcomed. An English-speaking American would feel like a foreigner here. No one understands English. Diversity? Not when it comes to food. You either eat burritos, pizza or McDonald's. There are not many other food choices. So, liberals, quit complaining. Move to California!!

Welcome, Kool-Aid drinkers!
(and normally, I don't use that term, but...) Every time he opens his mouth, Driessen seems to attract them like flies. He hit all the skeptical cliches in this one, didn't he?

"Average global temperatures stabilized in 1998,"

No they didn't, they shot up in 1998, shot down in 1999, and have been going up ever since.

"and then fell 1.1 degrees F the past twelve months, satellite measurements show."

Yes, because of La Nina, which is a semi-regular weather condition, not a trend.

"Ice core data demonstrate that, over thousands of years, rising temperatures preceded higher atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, by hundreds of years – the exact opposite of climate chaos hypotheses."

Apples and oranges: rising temps initiate CO2 rises (which then contribute to rising temps) under natural conditions. These aren't natural conditions; the CO2 is released independent of temp, and since CO2 is a greenhouse gas, it causes warming.

Cont.
"Interior Greenland and Antarctica appear to be gaining ice mass; they’re certainly not melting."

Actually, they're melting faster than ever on the edges, they're just gaining mass in the interior because of increased snowfall (caused by global warming).

"These inconvenient facts have forced alarmists to rely on computer models that generate Frankenclime monsters realistic enough to scare people into believing climate Armageddon is nigh."

Apparently, according to Driessen, everyone who believes in AGW is an alarmist, including those who don't think it would be that bad (which would include Bjorn Lomburg and Roy Spencer)

"But they can’t reproduce the actual climate of the past century. They cannot make accurate predictions, even one year in the future, much less fifty."

Did Driessen stop reading climate science articles ten years ago? They can, and they have.

"...our still limited understanding of complex, turbulent climate processes that involve the sun, oceans, land masses and atmosphere. They do a poor job of dealing with the effects of water vapor, precipitation and high cirrus clouds on temperatures and climate, because the underlying physics aren’t well understood, notes MIT meteorology professor Richard Lindzen."

True, but I don't need to know the precise condition of your heart to know that eating greasy food isn't good for it. No one's trying to predict the exact climate, they're trying to predict the effect of one very well-understood factor on it.

Cont. cont.
"Like the UN’s politicized climate control panel, the IPCC, models also place too much emphasis on carbon dioxide. They pay insufficient attention to extraterrestrial factors like changes in the Earth’s irregular orbit around the sun, solar energy levels, and solar winds that appear to influence the level of cosmic rays reaching Earth, and thus the formation of cloud cover and penetration of infrared radiation from the sun."

Let's see. Changes in Earth's orbit happen too slowly to cause any detectable change on anything less than a thousand year timescale; solar energy levels and solar winds haven't changed in the last twenty five years while Earth temp have shot up (relative in both cases); and as for cosmic rays, turns out there's no link between them and cloud cover after all.

And could D please come up with some new arguments? He's been using the same ones for five years now. His paranoia level hasn't ebbed at all, either.

Bipartisanship always = tax increases
The only time we now see bipartisan harmony is when both sides are in the process of sticking it to the public. Hide your money under the bed and sew you pockets shut because that's what this 'global warming' is all about.

Inconsistent liberals
Apparently, the only change the left is not for is climate change.

mudmucker
Wikipedia??? Nice try.

I have read the 'featured' articles on AGW on Wikipedia, and I have also dug further and read the online discussions by the editors-- these incredible scientific minds off-handedly disregard items such as this http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority .SenateReport#report , because it's not 'peer-reviewed', but can't stop lapping up hogswill like this http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/inh ofe-global-warming-deniers-scientists-46011008

As a whole, I like Wikipedia, but I always go and read the discussion notes before taking an article as gospel. Too many editors on their are more worried about protecting their vanity than getting facts correct.

Frey
"No they didn't, they shot up in 1998, shot down in 1999, and have been going up ever since."

Wrong again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GlobalTemperaturesSince1 991.png

Note the trendline. (See, Wikipedia does have it uses-- just never take the articles on blind faith.)

Frey
"No they didn't, they shot up in 1998, shot down in 1999, and have been going up ever since."

Correct again!

Any research into global temperatures (for those with a fixation on everything US, global means the globe, not just the US) will show that 2005 and 2007 are some of the warmest years on record. Any graph without a source is very suspect, especially if it has something idiotic like a cooling trend within the warmest decade.

Too bad that the Internet gives so many agenda-based non-scientists the ability to refute actual science. Just try to find a real scientist with real credentials who refutes GW, and you have no choice but to reference some tiny group found on the internet. Walk into any university and talk to anyone in the science divisions and see if you can find the 1%-ers. Maybe look for the ExxonMobile stickers on their doors.

A very tiny percentage of political war mongers insist there are WMD and you pounce, even though the clear majority of people in the know said otherwise. A very tiny percentage of scientists think GW is a hoax and you believe them. If you believe there were WMD and that GW is a hoax, then you are clearly using your agenda as a guide and missing all of the facts.
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