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Saturday, September 08, 2007
Paul Driessen :: Townhall.com Columnist
Global Warming Insanity?
by Paul Driessen
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority,” Marcus Aurelius opined, “but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” An even worse fate would be to end up in minority status and an asylum. Recent developments suggest that this might become the destiny of climate change alarmists.

Now that NASA has corrected its US temperature records, the hottest year on record is no longer 1998, but 1934. Five of the ten hottest years since 1880 were between 1920 and 1940 – and the 15 hottest years since 1880 are spread across seven decades. This suggests natural variation, not a warming trend. Plant and insect remains found at the base of Greenland’s ice sheet indicate that, just 400,000 years ago, the island was blanketed in forests and basking in temperatures perhaps 27 degrees F warmer than today.

Land area temperatures in South America, Africa and Australia have declined slightly over the last few years. Since 1998, sea surface temperatures over much of the world have decreased slightly, while globally averaged atmospheric temperatures have shown no change.

Many US temperature gauges are near air-conditioning exhausts, hot asphalt and other heat sources. Their readings are thus too high and must be revised downward – along with claims about rising temperatures.

Over the past 650,000 years, global temperatures almost always rose or fell first – followed centuries later by changes in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, as warming oceans exhaled CO2 or cooling seas absorbed the gas. (This inconvenient fact is what Al Gore is referring to when he says the temperature-CO2 relationship “is actually very complicated.”)

More scientists are pointing to solar energy levels, cosmic rays and clouds as determinants of climate – and saying CO2 plays only a minor role. Thousands of scientists have questioned claims that humans are causing catastrophic climate change, and over the past year dozens have publicly switched from believers to skeptics about climate Armageddon theories. There is obviously no consensus on climate change.

Latvia and seven other eastern European countries are threatening legal action against EU decisions to restrict their emissions, as they work to grow their economies after decades of impoverishment under Communism. China and India refuse to sacrifice economic growth to concerns about climate chaos. China has surpassed the US as the world’s leading CO2 emitter – and EU carbon dioxide emissions have increased faster than those in the United States, where both population and economic growth have been substantially higher than in Western Europe.

During the just-concluded UN climate conference in Vienna, a number of industrialized countries rejected binding targets of 25-40% greenhouse gas reductions by 2020 – while a bloc of 77 developing nations said industrialized countries should reduce their emissions 80% by that date.

The response of climate alarmists is fodder for psychological textbooks. Greenpeace says cataclysm skeptics are “climate criminals.” NASA scientist James Hansen calls us “court jesters.” Grist magazine wants “Nuremberg-style war crimes trials.” Robert Kennedy, Jr. says we should be treated like “traitors.”

Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit refused to reveal the methodology for his dire-sounding temperature data. “Why should I make the data available,” he asked, “when your aim is to find something wrong with it?” And Senator Barbara Boxer turned climate hearings into inquisitions for catastrophe skeptics, while Congressman Jim Costa walked out on a witness who pointed out that proposed legislation would dramatically increase energy and food prices, cost millions of jobs, and severely hurt poor families – while doing nothing to stabilize global temperatures.

Newsweek said climate holocaust “deniers” had received $19 million from industry, to subvert the “consensus” it claims exists about global warming. It made no mention of the $50 BILLION that alarmists and other beneficiaries have received since 1990 from governments, foundations and corporations – or of its 1975 article, which declared that scientists are “almost unanimous” in believing that a major cooling trend would usher in reduced agricultural productivity, famines and perhaps even a new Little Ice Age.

(Newsweek contributing editor Robert Samuelson called the global warming "denial machine” article “highly contrived” and based on “discredited” accusations about industry funding.)

Alarmists have blamed global warming for hurricanes, tornadoes, malaria, and even the Minneapolis bridge collapse, terrorism, Italian suicides, teenage drinking and “irritability” in mice. By combining far-fetched speculation with various computer-generated temperature projections and worst-case scenarios, they concoct even more ominous auguries, like this whopper from London’s Benfield UCL Hazard Research Centre:

If CO2 levels keep rising, global temperatures could soar, ice caps could melt, oceans could rise dozens of feet – and all that extra water pressure could destabilize Earth’s crust, squeeze out magma and cause volcanoes to erupt. The volcanic gases and dust could then cool the earth, and cause a new ice age.

A 1993 blockbuster movie used a similar what-if pyramid scheme to generate terrifying encounters with raptors and tyrannosaurs. But when the lights came up, people knew it was just a movie.

When it comes to climate change, however, many seem unable to separate science from science fiction – or even distinguish between headline-grabbing pronouncements, preposterous disaster flicks like “The Day After Tomorrow,” and pseudo-documentaries like “An Inconvenient Truth” and “The 11th Hour.” Instead of fostering rational discourse and responsible action, alarmists insist that we “do something” immediately to prevent climate cataclysm.

Al Gore is buying carbon offset indulgences. Leonardo DiCaprio is replacing his incandescent lightbulbs. Cheryl Crow promotes one square per trip to the ladies room. Cate Blanchett will wash her hair less often in her new $10-million Australian mansion. Cameron Diaz promotes “indigenous” lifestyles in Third World countries.

But they all support laws mandating greatly reduced energy use and economic growth – outside of Hollywood and Nashville’s Belle Meade area. In response, Congress has introduced a half-dozen “climate stabilization” bills – and state legislatures are reviewing 375 more – even as the scientific “consensus” fades, Europe’s united front on emissions trading collapses, and countries in the Asia-Pacific Partnership reject mandatory greenhouse gas cutbacks in favor of steady technological progress in pollution control and energy efficiency.

These bills would cost American consumers many billions of dollars a year. But they would reduce average global temperatures by a tiny fraction of the 0.2 degrees F that scientists say the Kyoto Protocol would accomplish by 2050 (assuming CO2 really is a primary cause of climate change).

It’s time to ask: At what point do symbolic gestures and political grandstanding become “doing something” about climate change? At what point do they amount to insanity?

Many suspect that anxiety about climate change was never really about preventing a global warming – or global cooling – catastrophe. Instead, they say, the real purpose is controlling energy use, economic growth and people’s lives. Alarmist efforts to intimidate climate catastrophe skeptics and legislate mandatory energy restrictions suggest that these suspicions are valid, and that climate doomsayers are becoming increasingly desperate.

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About The Author
Paul Driessen is senior policy adviser for the Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT), which is sponsoring the All Pain No Gain petition against global-warming hype. He also is a senior policy adviser to the Congress of Racial Equality and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green Power - Black Death.

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Reasoned and logic
but they won't change the minds of those already made up. And anyone who says differently is a no good filthy liar, right al?

yup, same sh-- alright
Say Frey, have you been over to http://www.surfacestations.org/ ? It's a volunteer effort to get pictures of all of the long-term temperature sites in the US. If you go through their site you'll find descriptions of what a site should have to be a proper register of long-term change. Just little things, like being 100 feet away from roads and buildings, and lack of tree cover (shade makes a huge difference over the long term).

For the sites I looked through they're running about 1/3 meeting their requirements, the others not. That's why corrections like the one that NASA was trying to make are so important. And why their math mistake means a lot.

They're still looking for volunteers to photograph other stations, too, and have directions on how to help. Check it out folks.

further to Frey
What all the above means is that Paul's paragraph 4 is correct. The only refutations that could work are:

1) Correcting mathematically for urban heat sinks. They tried this. See the reference in paragraph 2.

2) Only including those sites that meet the stated requirements of the collecting body. This would mean discarding approximately 2/3 of the collected weather data. Not likely to happen.

3) Cover ears with hands and go La-la-la-la-la. Recommended.

4) Look indignant that anyone questions your religion, loudly proclaim that it's settled science (as was the flat earth and Aristotelian universe, in their times), cast aspersions at any who dare disagree, and leave in a huff. This seems to be your preference.

(note to others: I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I was looking for a good way to advertise for http://www.surfacestations.org/ and I want to try to get more folks collecting data for them.)

I see, Frey and others
who support the idea of Anthropogenic Globull Warming.

Obviously, the Earth's climate is a static system in its natural state.


Well, that certainly explains the pesky presence of indigenous Southern California species such as sabre-tooth cats and woolly mammoths tying up our freeways while they wander through traffic.


Oh, wait, they don't! Apparently they died out at the end of the last Ice Age. Damn! Must have been all those SUVs the cave men were driving around!


Someone shoulda passed a law or something!

This Guy is a Scientist?
'Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit refused to reveal the methodology for his dire-sounding temperature data. “Why should I make the data available,” he asked, “when your aim is to find something wrong with it?”'. This guy is a scientist and he doesn't want anyone checking his data for errors? I kind of thought that was basic in the scientific method...you do your research, submit it to your peers for review, and let them try to disprove your theory. If they can't, fine. If they can, then you can scratch one idea off the list and work on the next.

And by the way, I believe the Sheryl Crow "one square of toilet paper" was a joke which was taken seriously by too many people.

Shameless plug
For those determined to convince us that AlBore is right(GloBULL warming is harming the earth), and man is the cause of it, so we should cut down on the use of our cars, walk more, turn our thermostats down, etc etc, BE SURE to catch Hannity's America on the Fox News Channel on Sunday at 9:00 PM(EDT) to see his story about Mr. GloBULL warming himself getting off his private GULF STREAM jet on his way to lecture us about reducing OUR energy useage.

Can you say HYPOCRITE??

Clearly they're wrong
Mr. Driessen wrote:
"Alarmists have blamed global warming for hurricanes, tornadoes, malaria, and even the Minneapolis bridge collapse, terrorism, Italian suicides, teenage drinking and “irritability” in mice."


It's patently obvious that these "alarmists" are wrong, so Mr. Driessen is correct to refer to them as alarmists.
ANYONE with two braincells to rub together knows that "greenhouse gasses" don't cause global warming or any of the disasters listed.
The very fact that George Walker Bush is breathing is the REAL cause of ALL of that. Just ask any Liberal/Democrat who holds a PHd in Bush Derangement Syndrome. They'll lecture you for hours on end about that.

Global Fraud
I have about come to the conclusion that Globull Warming is like amnesty for illegals, the government is going to do enact useless legislation regardless of the evidence and what the citizens want. Here is the latest from the government via Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296143,00.html

It wasn’t long ago when this was the headline:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=143012005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138346,00.html

All of this harkens back to the original news article, which I can no longer find, about polar bears. This article said that proponents of AGW were going to attempt to get the polar bears added to the endangered specie list so that the Government would be forced to take action on Globull Warming. This is despite the evidence that polar bear populations are increasing. So what we have is a sympathetic (and liberal) MSM printing stories about threatened polar bears, liberal wings of the government releasing stories about polar bears in support of their own agenda, and the AGW crowd, including the Bush WH and almost all the candidates, moving right along in spite of the overwhelming evidence that the entire scheme is a fraud.

There is only one good thing on the horizon, there is one top tier candidate who hasn’t signed on to the fraud:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTQzYWY1MGM5NTkyZTM2YWVlMDMzMDlhMzQwNThhNDU=

Ready, Fire, Aim
Climate is changing -- we gotta do something!

Well, the Russians supposedly planted their flag at the bottom of the ocean under the North Pole as a first step toward dominating Arctic resources -- that's something. I heard of a guy who bought an almost abandoned town on Hudson Bay in anticipation of the Northwest Passage (re)opening. That's something. Canada sent its navy into the Arctic in force to announce its claims on part of the riches -- that's something.

The sky is falling
Yeah, right. The best paragraph in the article was the concluding one. The hysteria being fomented over alleged global warming has next to nothing to do with science and everything to do with megolomania. As BrianR alluded to the atmosphere of this planet is huge, complex, and extremely dynamic, meaning that we don't really understand it that well and trying to make projections based on data that spans only about 125 years, which in terms of geological time is less than the blink of an eye, certainly less than statistically significant. Most of these apocolyptic projections are based on computer models which cannot even approximate current climate condidtions when fed known data from only a few years ago. The real telling point is the paranoid insistence on supressing contraraian ideas. If these zealots are intellectually and professionally honest, they would welcome sceptics with the confidence of someone who knows they are right and has empirical data to back them up. Unfortunately, this attitude on the part of AGW proponents prevents rational debate on the topic.
Thank God for greenhouse gasses. Without them, the Earth would have the same climate as the moon.

Computer models
LOL. I know about computer models. I've become a millionaire many times on a spreadsheet. It's all about ASSumptions. Those assumptions factored into the climate computer models are based on poorly understood and sometimes contradictory data. One small change in those assumptions change the outcome considerably.

I keep up with the global warming hysteria on http://junkscience.com/
There are numerous links to studies and articles with discussions of the science.

The only consensus about global warming appears to come from those whose grants are based on "there's a problem." The lies about scientific consensus is telling. Most of the signators of the supposed 2000 scientists who are said to form the consensus have nothing to do with climatology and many aren't even scientists. Furthermore, some who are said to be part of the group sued to get their names off because they did NOT agree.

The GW hysteria is about control, not science.


Zealots
The main thing that has made me skeptical about "global warming" (now conveniently changed to "climate change") is the fanatical fervor of its proponents.

Scientific theory should be open to challenge and rational debate. The zealots who support draconian measures to affect the climate it will permit neither.

Btw, have you noticed that most of the scarifice they advocate is for us regular folks, not for themselves?

Give them something to do
Clearly these people do not have enough real work. Could somebody give them each a plastic garbage bag (30 gallon size) and send them out to clean up the garbage they and their children have strewn from one end of my city to the other? Or perhaps some of them could stand on city street corners with big signs that say PUT DOWN YOUR CELL PHONE, STOP YOUR CAR, LOOK FOR PEDESTRIANS, THEN TURN!

The rest of them can concentrate on hushing their children in public places (and teaching them to sit still in their chairs, especially on airplanes), choose a book from the Great Books list and sit in a comfortable, shady place and read aloud to those kids, and maybe even head down to the local church to see what they might do to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, comfort the dying and that stuff.

In his book Give War A Chance, P.J. O Rourke describes a British soldier standing on top of a building watching the Kuwaities celebrate the end of the war by firing their guns in the air and yelling. *Put that gun down* the soldier yelled, *and pick up a mop and a bucket and CLEAN UP THIS COUNTRY!* Go, thou hysterical hippies, and do likewise.

Full of flaws..
Basically everything in the article is wrong....
>
"More scientists are pointing to solar energy levels cosmic rays etc" really?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6290228.stm
hmmmm...
>
Scientific opinion? What scientific organization claims that AGW isn't real... Oh yeah none.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change
>
Or his bizzare insinuation that the planet isn't
warming... Is that why the arctic has had its worst year of melting for nearly thirty years this year?
>
If you really strongly disagree with me read this
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19426041.100-the-7-biggest-myths-about-climate-change.html
Aren't you parroting at least a few of them?

It is an attempt to control
Pure and simple. If Gore and the followers of his pseudo-science can get the dissent on global warming quelled, they will have a trump card that can be used in any political debate.

The hypocracy of the left is evident in this debate. All the values they claim to hold - openness to new ideas, free speech, and progressive thinking - are completely absent in the global warming debate.

Actually...
this link is laid out better
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11462
The fact is, that quite a few of these outdated myths are used in this article or the comments. Some fully some just in passing.

California in full Gore-Bull Warming
Hysteria.

Last year we had an exceptionally hot summer (and the Gore-Bullies told us it was Global Warming). This year, we had a normal summer, except for the last week of August, which was hot and humid.

I remember much hotter weather in the 1970s, in which it was regularly 112 degrees in August, and I don't remember anyone freaking out about it. Almost nobody had air-conditioning, and we drove around with our car windows down.

But this year, from the reaction of the press you would think that the temperature had never been over the century mark.

Part of the problem is that our media seems to have been taken over by people from somewhere else who are not used to the heat.

Either that, or listening to Al Gore erases their memories and turns their minds to jello.

By the way, the heat wave is over, after only one week.

BTW, we have a drought this year
The people freaking out about Gore-Bull warming should be happy instead, because if they are telling the truth, the water table is due to rise.

Polar Bears
I like polar bear and the latest media trend is to depict these cuddly animals as becoming extinct in 50 years. Horsefeathers, I say. But if they do, there will be a lot more cute furry seals around without a natural predator hunting them down on the ice.

Insanity all right
There are a few points made in this article that need to be expounded upon. First, I would like to see any proof that CO2 caused climate change. I have heard people say it, offer no proof, conclude they are correct, declare the debate over, and call anyone who disagrees a denier of truth, and a criminal.
Secondly, if everything they said were correct, and we were causing the earth to warm, can somebody tell me so the hell what? We're talking about a degree or two higher over a hundred year period. In any given region the temperature fluctuates much more than that everyday from morning to noon and from noon to night. So how is it we don't burst into flames when the temperature increases from 77 degrees at 7:00 am to 93 degrees at noon?
Thirdly, who is to say that a rising temperature is a bad thing? As someone who has lived in freezing conditions, I say bring on the warmer weather. This whole thing is a hoax.

Great article.

Frey
Thanks for making Well Nows point so quickly.

It is obvious that the AGW crowd can stand no heresy. You must believe in man made global warming or else.

It is their religion complete with articles of faith amd priests. (Gore must be their Pope.)

Polar bears were supposedly
disappearing in the '20s and '30s, also.

The world was heating up in the '20s and '30s, also, and then returning to an ice age in the '70s.

Factually, THE SUN is in a period of more intense radiation, and the entire solar system is heating.

The Mars ice caps are really perceptibly melting. Venus is hotter than ever measured. Saturn's southern hemisphere is heating. Jupiter has developed another red-spot storm from heating. Its moons are warming. Even Pluto, now a planetoid, on an orbit away from the sun is heating up.

The earth (prob.) experienced three ice ages (we're still in one because we have polar ice caps) and managed to come out of those glacial periods without human influence.

The earth is warmer and colder according to its axis, internal activity that produces periods of higher or lower volcanic and storm creation, and probably its relationship to the sun and position in the Milky Way.

It wasn't SUVs or coal-fired power plants that caused the glaciers to melt 10,000 years ago and they prob. have very little effect on the earth as a whole. The earth all by itself produces 10s of trillions of tens of water vapor and CO2 all by itself.

Disconnect
Those who believed in Lyell's uniformitarianism assured us that natural selection happened over uninterrupted eons of time. Trouble is, give us one global catastrophe and we then need a new theory, it's called punctuated equilibrium. If you want something bad enough, some theory will give it to you. If there ever was global warming in the past, before the industrial revolution, toss the green house theory. I look for an MSM interview of the "cave men" in the upcoming TV series to get a new perspective on past ice ages.
Incidentally, "The Skeptical Environmentalist" is one of the most reliable scientific studies of global warming. If you care to wade through all the data, we find that a minute rise in temperature seems to be apparent, but not attributable to human activities. All this from a person who believed in the "scientific consensus" but set out to assemble his research assistants to check the data, just to be sure.
P.S., his colleagues in scientific academia called for his head.

Re: . "Full of Flaws"
I think that the reality is this. I think that both sides of the argument are so wrapped up in their egos, funding, and ideologies that they can't face even the simplest of facts associated with the whole AGW argument.

Fact: Not one Kyoto signatory will meet their goals, they can't, it doesn't work. No one will commit economic suicide for a THEORY.

Fact: We do not understand the atmoshpere, global climate, or anything connected with them. The numerous differing points of view and submitted THEORIES prove that.

Fact: Computer models are just that, models. It is an established fact that we do not know how many variables affect cloud formation, atmospheric cross currents, and numerous other factors. Computer models are only as good as the data put into them. The absence of any single factor in the model invalidates the model and fails to support the THEORY.

Final fact, we don't really know diddly about our climate and what makes it work. It is by no means settled science. Even what we regard as settled science today is subject to change as we learn more. It is simply irrational to base some sort of global movement (Kyoto etc.) on science that is subject to change at any moment. What I find remarkbale is how many problems are now blamed on AGW and how many new THEORIES sprout on almost an hourly basis.

We need globull warming
We need to get the earth back to the temperature it belongs.

Trop. atorm Gabriella
Since no major Cat. 5 hurricane has ravaged the mainland US since 2005 and the weather people have been apoplectic predicting wonderfully terrible hurricane activity in both 2006 and 2007, listen this weekend to the hype concerning a trop. storm that may hit the Carolinads briefly and then create some scattered thundershowers up the East Coast into mid-week. You would think it was the wrath of God.

Eveyone is becomning invested in GW. The National Geog. mag. a couple years ago ran an issue and said it would take decades to decide if MGW was a reality, and then last year threw its own observations overboard. Now everything is about carbon footprints. Even the Smithsonian--it has turned some of the exhibits into PC gone wild--is producing garbagy articles with MGW in them.

It's like the lib. mantra that poverty produces crime and only until we eliminate pov. (by taxing you and me to give away our money) can we affect crime rates. Yet the 1930s, during worldwide depression, the US had its lowest crime stats. and highest rates of crime solving. The received wisdom is too often just the "line" that is repeated the most and the loudest.

The many flavors of fanatic pt 1
There are several different varieties of Global Warming fanatics.

1. The worshipers of neopagan earth goddess Gaia. These are the irrational lunatics who believe that anything man does is harmful to the earth. Their goal is to restore the earth to some imagined level of natural splendor where man has no impact on the earth whatsoever. In fact, for the more fanatical of this specie, they would eliminate all mankind, with the exception of themselves of course. After all, you must have worshipers to elevate the goddess. They oppose ALL energy use and development. They live in a variety of places from cardboard boxes in back alleys to large mansions in suburbia. If they vote, these people will vote for the “Green Party”. Usually they don’t vote.
2. The run of the mill environmentalists. These are the Saab driving yuppies of the day. They would drive a hybrid Prius when they go down for their large Caramel Macchiato but can’t “afford” it. They major(ed) in Political Science, Journalism, or Business Administration. Typically they are either in school or haven’t finished school for longer than a few years. They normally live with their parents or in small apartments. All of their ideas in environmentalism come from Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, or in some case, the Earth Liberation League. None of them have taken any kind of science courses since their 6th grade teacher explained the difference between forestland and savannah to them. Their efforts in environmentalism are opposition to any kind of energy development except solar and wind. And promotion of recycling, fluorescent bulbs, and low volume flush toilets. These people vote Democrat. They have given to thought to the impact of their desires and don’t see their ideas impacting themselves.

The many flavors of fanatic pt 2
3. The Limousine Liberal Envirowhacko. These are the Hollywood elite, the “Nouveau riche” seeking to impress their compatriots, or the old money harridans seeking to expunge their “guilt”. They are much like the enviro-yuppie except that they can afford any type of car or device they desire. Typically they drive one or more of the following; Bugatti Veyron , Ferrari Enzo, stretch limo, or if feeling cheap, a Hummer. If they have a degree it will either be in Law or Business with an MBA. They normally live in a 20,000 to 30,000 square foot mansion as their primary home with “summer get-a-ways” at socially desirable locations throughout the world, which they travel to via private jet. If they do anything to support environmentalism it is on the order of installing solar panels on the non-visible side of their roof. These panels will generate approximately 1 kw/hr at peak sunlight in a home that uses 50 kw/hr. They may donate small amounts to the “green” organizations where they get their knowledge. These are the key supporters of the Democratic Party and they always vote Democrat. They assume (rightly) that they will not be impacted by the laws they are pushing because they can either afford to “buy” themselves a way around it, or through additional political favors, will be exempted from the laws.

The many flavors of fanatic pt 3
4. The Liberal Politician. These are the people who chase votes and love power over other people. They believe that government is the answer to all of the world’s problems and that there is no problem that government money cannot solve. Some of them actually believe in environmentalism in the same manner as the yuppie or the limo-liberal, being educated by the “green organizations”. Most do not believe in anything other than politics and getting reelected. Where they have any emotion, it is dedicated to socialism. For them environmentalism serves many purposes. First, it provides a front to show the yuppie and the limo-liberal that the pol cares about their issues and thus is entitled to their vote. Second it provides an excuse for raising taxes that can be spent on anything they desire, as long as a little goes to enviro-causes. Most of the money will go to socialist programs, which serve the bulk of the Dem supporters. Third legislation here creates winner/loser situations that encourage political donations from groups wanting to assure that they get the “winner” category. And last, but not least, it provides that soul satisfying high that causes people to want to be politicians to begin with, power over the masses. Of course they assume they will be exempted from the any laws they pass. This is normal Washington business. This is the Democrat Party with support from some RINO Republicans who think they know a good thing when they see it.

The many flavors of fanatic pt 4
5. The anarchist-communist radical. These are the fruitcakes that show up at the G-8 conferences to break up pavement for rocks to throw and generally riot and create havoc. This last group really doesn’t believe in environmentalism but are included because they will support it and show up for the demonstrations. They support it because the recognize that it is harmful to the Western nations and because the protests give them another venue to riot and create havoc. They know that they will not be impacted by any laws passed in this area because they don’t work and don’t obey laws anyway.
One thing that is common to ALL of these groups is that they all either believe or “know” that they will not be negatively impacted by any laws that are passed

For gretske et al
(unfortunate you have to use THAT handle--but...)

On the nail, that Gore is after control. After having lost his homestate (and the election along with it--and also failed in his pathetic approach to reverse that), he's decided to SKIP the election and force his own regime--in other words a coup-d'etat through gobbledygook.

A thought
I personally believe national weather station have been 'pegged' by global warming fruits to fudge on their numbers. Local tv then reports higher temperatures than the actual temperatures.

Anyone believing in man made global warming is simply ignorant of basic history.

They tell us we had an ice age 50,000 yrs. ago.
I can tell you it was gone when i was a kid 70yrs. ago.

warming?
Last month there was a period of 4 straight days where the high temp in Philadelphia didn't get above 69F. Just for review...I'm talkin' AUGUST here!

The temps are going up and the ice caps are disappearing. We've got to slow down the energy usage, CO2 emissions, and SUV driving of those Martians.

I learned a new term
I don't know if Brian made the globull warming himself or if it has been around, but I love it.
I keep asking the questions, what is the temp we are supposed to be, how will we know when we get there, and how do we keep from going too far? Of course I get the response that I am just being argumentative. No one explains how being powerful enough to cool temps will keep mankind from being powerful enough to freeze everything up.
By the way we in Montana and Wyoming are supposed to get up to 6" of snow tonight in the mountains....the fault of globull warming of course.

.
So everything in the article is wrong, even the new figures on which years have been the hottest?

Face it, you true believers suffered a huge blow to the head with that one. And the implications are staggering. Just tell me this. In light of that revision, why should I believe any of the "facts" that you insist are true?

This whole business of global warming is going to unravel. The same thing happened with the theory that living near a high-tension wire caused cancer. The "facts" were later seen to be wrong. With global warming, the revision from 1998 to 1934 as the "warmest year on record" is just the first of many. And sooner or later junior scientists are going to come forward and say they were pressured into ignoring contrary data.

It will be a huge scandal, and the best thing to do is to distance yourself from it as soon as possible.

Big Brother Lives
"It’s time to ask: At what point do symbolic gestures and political grandstanding become “doing something” about climate change? At what point do they amount to insanity?"

The self-promoting celebrities & pols, & the calculating totalitarians & their established-pop-media allies get to do the gestures & grandstanding. When this crap is enacted into LAW, with enforcement & penalties, & thrust upon us, that will be the 'doing something.'

"Many suspect that anxiety about climate change was never really about preventing a global warming ...catastrophe. Instead, they say, the real purpose is controlling energy use, economic growth and people’s lives."

Exactly what I've been saying all along. 'Climate change' alarmism as it's thrust at us is a perfect vehicle for promoting totalitarianism.

Forget carbon taxes and costs calculated in billions of $. Imagine for virtually every decision of your life, e.g. the size & location of your house, what temp you can run your a/c - furnace, what car you can drive & how much, you had to go to some kind of board or permitting auithority, much like your DMV, building permit, or zoning-planning board, to get permission. That's where we're headed if this keeps up. Imagine we all have to live in urban 'housing projects' in the name of energy efficiency. Once those institutions are in place, no one will ever ask if they're 'working' or if AGW was real in the 1st place.

MarkJ, you're right about Phil Jones & his attitude - it is directly contrary to the scientific method, which REQUIRES that data & methods be published & exposed to criticism.

renny: You're right, THIS is serious!!

Icebers melting, what are the Polar bears to do??

Oh wait, that was 1922..............

John McCaslin’s column
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnMcCaslin/2007/08/17/piltdown_man?page=full&comments=true

“…Washington resident John Lockwood, who while conducting research at the Library of Congress came across an intriguing Page 2 headline in the Nov. 2, 1922 edition of The Washington Post: "Arctic Ocean Getting Warm; Seals Vanish and Icebergs Melt.’”

“The story told how 'reat masses of ice have now been replaced by moraines of earth and stones,' and 'many points well-known glaciers have entirely disappeared.’"


Does any of this sound familiar??? That's what I thought. :-)




Oh sure, keep laughing
I was a globull warming denier myself--until I read this column.

WHO KNEW that globull warming is causing irritability in mice?! Think about it, what if the world were filled with billions of irritable mice?! I don't think we can afford to take that chance.

Immediately, of course, the government needs to fund a study, and cost is no object, to determine whether micean irritablility will result in more headaches, less sex, and ultimately fewer mice? OR will testosterone-driven angry guy-mice resort to the savage raping of headache-impaired lady mice, resulting in a micean boom? (Mouse abortion clinics? DO NOT EVEN go there.)

Now that I realize in how very many ways our lives will be impacted, I'm tending toward supporting destruction of our economy to save the globe. Algor, I bow to your superior reasoning. (And, hey, I like your jet.)

To ., if that IS your real name
Think about it, if the Arctic ice is having its worst melting year in nearly 30 years, then 30 years or so ago, it melted at least as much as now. One could conclude that 30 years ago it was hotter than it is today, and that in the 30 intervening years, it was cooler than it is today.

I'm not sure that PROVES a steady march toward a warmer globe.

Similarly, if NASA has found that the *actual* hottest day on record was back around the time of the Great Depression....

In Defense of Gore
It is true that with his heating sidewalk leading to his heating swimming pool Al doesn't serve as the best example of conservation, and

It is true that in his eight years as president of vice, sorry Clinton thought took me, as Vice President for Clinton, he used none of his power or influence to make changes BUT

He is making hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably millions by now, off of shouting about global warming. Isn't this the American dream? He is showing success. The only thing close to him that I can see is some television ad that says, "just wipe it on your forehead." It doesn't say what it is or if it does anything, just sells it. I wonder if Al owns the company. Bill D.

Polly: Great post! You're right...

never thought about annoyed mice! Yikes!

Actually, I don't know that I'd seen the GloBULL "Warmies" (as Mt.Rose called them on one thread) had mentioned the annoyed mice issue... but you're right, they'd be right on some government funded study...

This whole GloBULL Warming hoax has been deflating, little by little (notice we haven't been hearing so much from algore of late?) but my question is, who and what are we going to have to chuckle about once this thing is finally off the radar???


The 100 year old con
The 100 year old con http://www.InteliOrg.com/archive/FireandIce.pdf on climate change.

In order to be an intelligent reader you must have a basic knowledge. Please do your own homework, a starting point http://www.InteliOrg.com/

Polly + Kyoto
I think you will find that it shows that the temp increase between the previous year and the current year is the greatest for thirty years. think about it. (sea temp in the arctic)
>
Would Kyoto destroy the economy? Britain and Germany are both on target to meet Kyoto obligations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#Increase_in_greenhouse_gas_emission_since_1990
Their economies are alright.

Wiki and Kyoto
two real science organizations if there ever was one. The Kyoto group were all politicians whose sole interest was getting rich and hurting the U.S. economy. Their work was found to be fraudulent.

Wikipedia, has no work, It only has axes that are ground by whoever edited it last.

. what's in your wallet? Are you for the jail or the siminary?

Hey, that's one group I left
off of the list of fanatics. The corrupt buisinessman. I'll do that next.

Vic....
can you think of any group opposing the scientific consensus?
>
My point is that Britain and germany have both achieved (or will) Kyoto. Surely that means it does very little economic damage. Of course you just sidestep that by making the comment that wikipedia is unreliable despite it being inarguably right there.

They have not
achieved their goals. They say they "are on the way" to achieving them. In addition, how do their goals compare to the ones we were assigned? How do they compare to the ones CVhina, India, and Mexico were assigned?

And where is the evidence that their reduction was due to their AGW efforts and not the fact that tjeir economies were already in the trash.

As it stands now, no country has actually met the goals except the ones who have no goals.

HELP!

.....Why are we even discussing this tripe ...the subject has been beaten to death and minds are made up ...

.....the arguement goes like this ...Q. "are you for clean water and clean air"? A. "Yes" ...Q. Scientists agree that man is harming the planet with CO2 emmissions ...do you want to save the Planet"? ...A. "Yes" ...

.....Q. "Do you want the government to impose CSR taxes on big corporations to stop Global warming"? ...A. "Yes"...

.....Now the stage is set for phase two and the scam begins ....taxes are raised on scarce (by fiat) energy supplies ...Government subsidies (Pork, Earmarks whatever)are handed out to farmers and chemical companies to produce Ethanol (google "The Great Ethanol Boondoggle") ...

.....Energy companys seeing the writing on the wall begin running ads boosting the use of alternate fuels and trying to cash in on Carbon Credits issued by Government regulators ...

.....And the consumers ...conditioned and brainwashed by a complicit Liberal media to accept the scam ...bend over ...grab their ankles ...and happily take it up the rear ...

.....COLOSSUS

The Left's Real Agenda

Human induce global warming is a smoke screen (sorry - I couldn’t resist) behind which the left conducts its real agenda, the strategic on-going war on free market economics.

The left hates petroleum because it is the life blood of Western Industrial Capitalism – the mortal enemy of their perennial dream of Global Socialist Utopian government.

It does no good to site genuine scientific data to them. It accomplishes nothing. They have invented their own religion – the Church of Neo-Pagan Anti-Humanism. It is a faith based belief system and world view totally divorced from rationality. Facts don't matter.

In a nut shell, the so called Green Movement is nothing more than the old International Worker’s Movement dressed up in green spandex.

And some people just should not wear spandex.


Correlate Lead Levels & Social Insanity
Someone ought to check whether the decline in Global Warming insanity correlates with declining lead levels in the human food chain...a different polution problem

If you look into it, the majority of the leaders of this global warming movement are scientific novices and/or politiicans...the followers are even more poorly educated..

A scientist who wont submit his data for peer review and public scrutiny is no longer a scientist (Phil Jones) that is a fundamental nature of what makes science a valid methodology.

Low energy use and non-polluting solutions are the right measured approach for the future health of the environment....but social fear and extremes are the tools of despots....Hitler and other despots have used these techniques in the past to gain control of Societies, thus we must look with extreme suspicion on those employing those tactics todays..they are up to no good..

Unfortunately extremists of this type appear to now exist in both primary parties....

The folks who still have their wits about them need to stick together because this shaping up to be a war between social irrationality/fascism and Democratic ideals/social equalitarianism....a fight to the death and a war we cannot afford to lose since it would usher in a new dark age that could extend for hundreds of years, otherwise...

As technology gives man unprecedented control of his environment, there are groups that want to ensure that only they control these technologies for themselves and their friends

It already happened to a certain extent but counterbalanced by Democratic mechanisms...most elitists desire to return us to a feudal system where the majority of humanity are merely powerless serfs in submission to them....




To Dave Stone:
Or, I can continue to live my life guilt-free, even without sending you a dime.

End the argument
The quickest way to end the argument about anthropogenic global warming is to ask a liberal what climatic event ended the previous ice ages.

They have no answer because prior to mankind's ascendancy on this planet, the global climate warmed and cooled as a result of other naturally occurring factors. QED


Numerical Models not data
Appreciate the global warming furor is based almost solely on seven climate models. Models are a small imitation of the real thing and in this case they are only tiny imitations of the real world. Climate models today are the most complex models ever created yet they lack appropriate modeling of clouds, water vapor (2/3 of all green house affect)and input oceans (3/4 of the earth's surface at little more than the air water interface. These models cannot predicate major known phenomenon like ENSO (El Nino) or PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation) that dramatically affect Northern Hemisphere Climate for years and even decades at a time.

Even some of the first scientist that raised the issue that the earth was warming have questioned the emphasis placed on what are best inadequate and incomplete models. Heck we have only had the super computers to runs such for not much more than a decade.

At this point some of the best researchers, those in Tropical Storm research have objected to the suggestion that storms are even increasing world wide, much less caused by global warming.

Yet, the real fraud been perpetrated is the there is something called scientific consensus. That is not the fundamental nature of science and shouldn't be the nature of modern scientists. Odder still is that when Hansen was questioned about the missreporting of surface temperature data, he said that it didn't matter those data weren't used in the models. Think about that one, you don't have to be a scientists.

Is "." Robert?
Someone with as little to contribute as "." has to be just one more of Robert's monikers. I wish TH would track IP addresses to keep the trolls at bay.

As for Britain's economy doing really well, I think the Brit's would disagree. The question for that once great nation is; which will ruin it first, leftism or Islamism?

TRUTH
like Al says,don't confuse me with the truth,my mind is made up.

Making merry over global climate change
Your chortling and snickering is pathetic. Take a look at what is going on, around the planet. For all our technological expertise we cannot make it rain. And climate change is changing weather patterns that deliver the rain.
Google Drought in Australia. Their two major rivers are going dry. That is like the US loosing the Mississippi and the Columbia Rivers.
The Sahel region of africa has dried up. Google Lake Chad. Pity the poor people who live in that region who have to live with the loss of their source of fresh water. Google Glacier melt in Bolivia. These poor people are loosing their fresh water supplies as the glaciers that melt during the summer are disappearing. Or think about the loss of Himalayan glaciers that supply fresh water to India and china. Do we want to put those nuclear nations under great stress? Closer to home follow those category 5 hurricanes hitting Central America. We rarely if ever had category 5's. How long before one hits Miami? Would you be willing to riase your taxes to help rebuild that city or let it lay in ruins like New Orleans?


leftout
Sorry,i didn't mean to leave out Robert[no officer,i'm haven't been drinking]Kennedy.

Cult-Like Tendencies?
It's interesting to read conservative commentary on this topic and the repeated suggestions that people who recognize the seriousness of climate change are exhibiting some kind of psychological abnormality. They are portrayed as "alarmists" who spreading some kind of "hysteria" and making their cause some kind of bizarre cultlike religious crusade.

All of which is interesting in light of the strange tendencies of people leveling those charges. In the face of overwhelming evidence from thousands of climate scientists, worldwide they (1) ignore the science; (2) try to find any possible hole in the science; (3) ignore the majority of scientists and repeatedly parade the statements of a handful of contrarians; or (4) suggest that a former consensus on climate change is now crumbling (even though it's not).

Of course the easiest route is option #1: ignore the science. That makes it easy to portray the global warming "alarmism" as the province of "liberals" or "socialists" (with a frequent implication that they are really the same thing) and Hollywood celebrities (who are, or course, automatically suspected of being airheads unless they happen to be conservatives like Fred Thompson---and thus command serious attention).

And then there is the strange phobia over the very notion that the behavior of human beings (or the holy, infallible free market) could actually have a negative impact on climate. It is as if such a suggestion constitutes blasphemy---despite the simple, abundantly verifiable fact that human beings DO have a wide range of impacts on the natural world, and those impacts can be positive or negative depending on how wisely we design our technologies, how we design our homes and communities, what energy sources we choose, and how efficiently we use (and reuse) natural resources.






Laughed out loud at this from article
Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit refused to reveal the methodology for his dire-sounding temperature data. “Why should I make the data available,” he asked, “when your aim is to find something wrong with it?”
=====================
Yep, sure to have a lot of confidence in this "scientist" who won't provide his methodology. I thought that was the bedrock principle of scientific inquiry, conduct a study so that it could be replicated and confirmed. My guess, he wouldn't want that because he knows it's a crock.

power grab
It is just another way to get more power in government. Crisis after crisis is used to get people to surrender more and more power to government. In this case, a global shadow government with fingers in many governments.

However, not all nations are playing the same game and U.S. consumers are buying cheaper products from foreign companies that don't have to include "environment costs" in their prices. If you want higher costs passed on to consumers (all taxes, environment and other costs are in the prices or the company closes), then you have to find a way to have consumers buy what you make here. Our government policies actually encourage consumers buy foreign by driving U.S. prices even higher than they need to be.

Good article that points out why much of what we are doing is driving even more consumers to foreign purchases and thus, even more lost jobs in our manufacturing areas that normally employed lower skilled Americans at decent wages.

2nd Laugh out loud reference:
If CO2 levels keep rising, global temperatures could soar, ice caps could melt, oceans could rise dozens of feet – and all that extra water pressure could destabilize Earth’s crust, squeeze out magma and cause volcanoes to erupt. The volcanic gases and dust could then cool the earth, and cause a new ice age.
=========================
I thought that a basic concept was that matter cannot be destroyed, only converted. If that is the case, how can converting Ice to Water (same stuff, different state) increase water pressure? What am I missing here? Secondly, why would it raise the level of the oceans when you can have a glass of water and ice filled to the brim and when the ice melts you don't see the water overflow?

chicaree
The question is whether any of the changes you mention are the result of human activities. The revising of the "warmest year on record" from 1998 to 1934 was a big point for us skeptics. A second was the fact that NASA didn't acknowledge the revision publicly, but merely made a change on their website. That shows a lack of integrity on their part. And any scientist who refuses to share his data with the public for fear they will find holes in it gives us skeptics a third point, because that's not the way science works.

You true believers just cannot get these things through your heads. It's all starting to unravel, and the time to turn to a healthy skepticism is now.

@Chicaree
If we had a way to stop all the things you list maybe it would be worth discussing. However, since man has statistically ZERO effect on the global climate, your concerns are wasted bandwidth.

By the way, you do realize that your statement "And climate change is changing weather patterns..." is pretty idiotic. That's like saying that the global economy is changing the way nations spend their money. Well duh.


-B

P.S. Global warming is actually a good thing.

johninoregon
Some of us don't dispute that we impact our envirnoment. We just don't swallow that the current "warming trend" is man-made, hence we reject the over-the-top knee-jerk response to "Do Something."

What if climate change is a natural event...you know, like a larger manifestation of a cycle like the four seasons are a cycle?

What if a warming trend would be a good thing? Giving colder areas a chance to support agriculture?

More people die from cold than from heat each year.

Most Global Warming believers are also Darwinists. Why don't we just ADAPT.

Follow the money. It is a scam. Lets just think Locally...we don't have to Act Globally. Primarily because we really don't have any control over natural processes. We might as well say "Stop Continentl Drift."

Polly
Thanks for the smile! Oh the poor mice!

Paul Driessen
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority,” Marcus Aurelius opined, “but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
================
GREAT opening line! So true! The AGW crowd has already embraced insanity. We will be insane to 'go along' with it. I have a blog about this subject, if anyone is interested.

Making merry over global climate change
Hey, Chicaree. Please, for the last time. The argument is not whether there is “climate change” or not. Earth’s atmosphere is not a static system. It is in a never ending process of “warming up” or “cooling down”. It’s been going on all of Earth’s history.

The argument is what causes “climate change”. Human’s burning so called fossil fuels, or natural cycles of solar radiation output and emence geologicevents.

Did you know this? A long, long, long time ago the Sahara Desert was not a desert. It was a Tropical rain forest. Then a massive ice age happened, and froze a lot of the Earth’s atmospheric moisture and trapped it in glacial ice sheets miles deep. And the atmosphere cooled way down and dried out. That killed all the trees in the Saharan rainforest.

And there were no humans burning fossil fuel and driving around in SUVs. Understand?

I recommend that you read a book that explains all this. “Rare Earth” by Ward and Brownlee. You don’t even have to buy it. It’s probably in your local library.


chickaree
I recommend you pick up a copy of The Skeptical Environmentalist. It'll change your life.

JohninOregon says:
"In the face of overwhelming evidence from thousands of climate scientists, worldwide they (1) ignore the science;"

Are you talking about the AGW proponents here John? Given that thousands of scientists dispute that there is any AGW I could easily assume that it is YOU who "ignore the science".

But in the interest of fairness, let me offer you this challenge:

Produce ONE peer reviewed study that proves that increases in global C02 PRECEDE increases in global temperature.

If you can't then I submit that you are either being mendacious or are a gullible junk science acolyte who is unworthy of lecturing the rest of us on why we should lap up your religious dogma.

Climate Change VS Jihad
It is astonishing to me that so many of the environmental doomsayers are willing to believe that we face imminent destruction from Global Warming, but deny the threat of Jihad. None of the environmental doomsday projections have come true, but they lefties (like compulsive gamblers) are sure that this time it will happen.

Meanwhile, thousands have been killed in terror attacks worldwide, and other attacks thwarted by excellent work on the part of law-enforcement and the much-maligned intelligence community. The response of the left: we are just being paranoid and buying into propaganda and hysteria. They do everything possible to undermine our efforts to stop terror, and oppose the very tools that have prevented terror attacks and saved who knows how many lives.

The common thread of these two positions is that they both weaken our society by undermining our economic strength and our capacity for self-defense. And they wonder why we question their loyalty.

johninoregon
You're the one who is ignoring science. The "warmest year on record" got revised. Hadn't you heard?

And if we can affect climate in a negative way, why not a positive way as well? That is, if some things we are doing are causing global warming, couldn't other things we are doing be causing global cooling? Why would you assume that everything we do warms the planet?

@Vic
Thanks for the well written summary of AGW fanatics. There are other AGW believers of course, just not fanatics. Most of these fall into the "ignorant masses" category. People who are shallow thinkers who can spout bumper sticker phrases but can't hold their own in even a friendly discussion much less go a little deeper into discussions of things like:

Which comes first, C02 or GW?
Can ice cap melting really increase sea level by 20 feet?
Why is global warming a bad thing?
What is causing warming on other planets?
Was warming during medieval times a good thing?
Was the little ice age a bad thing?
How many of the USHCN GHCN sites produce worthless data?
What is the most reliable way of measuring atmospheric temperature and why do Warmies ignore this measurement system?
Can a computer model be made to predict anything the researcher wants it to predict?
Which side has spent more money on propaganda, the Warmies or the "Deniers"?



The alarmists have missed a sure bet
If they could "prove" second hand smoke causes globull warming.....


Well, think of the possibilities!

Title of article
The title needs revision. It's no question.

gwco2skeptic
Exactly right. Terrorism is something real that we all know about. To believe in global warming means accepting the word of scientists whose specialty is in its infancy and whose data is not exactly reliable.

"MISSING LINK" I
Before the NY Times of Algoreasaurus, Kerryassaurus, Newsweekassaurus, Timemagassaurus, there existed the big search for “Missing Link”. Every four to six months one of the major purveyors of ink on a platter would announce the latest discovery in the darkest of dark dark Africa another ape like fossil remains that would prove beyond a reasonable doubt Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. During the then war of the scientific skeptics it was necessary to have a museum thing somewhere which would be the symbol par excellence convincing all believers in Alien Abductions and/or Christian Genesis thinking that good ole ground earth evolution developed Joe Sixpack as well as Albert Einstein; but, what these Evol-Believers needed more than ever before was an exemplar primo a primo of a stand erect pre-historic ape with the mental quick that could play Scrabble. After several years this quasi-competition between the various news media which then included the NBC Today Show with David Garraway and J Fred Muggs evolved where the energetic search for “Missing Link” faded away into who cares already oblivion. Horrors happen when stock options, bonuses, and pay raises scream for a new catalyst into the financial stratosphere thus preserving the variant existence of these dancing dinosaurs sending their offspring off to Yale and summering at Quaque that they create the need for Global Warming – Climate Change.

"MISSING LINK" II
Teresa Heinz Kerry, I will wager my super big bottle of pickles to a considerable measure of your married into fortune – say ten million foundation shares in Heinz Products – to prove or disapprove this climate change hysteria. This action – mother of Kerryasaurrus – goes beyond you putting your money where your mouth is; because, this action - by its mere presence - is wagering vis-à-vis your words and attitudes in contrast to someone who truly believes you are full of digested pickles left floating russet solid in the toilet bowl needing no more than a one liter flush for environmental purposes

"MISSING LINK" II
Teresa Heinz Kerry, I will wager my super big bottle of pickles to a considerable measure of your married into fortune – say ten million foundation shares in Heinz Products – to prove or disapprove this climate change hysteria. This action – mother of Kerryasaurrus – goes beyond you putting your money where your mouth is; because, this action - by its mere presence - is wagering vis-à-vis your words and attitudes in contrast to someone who truly believes you are full of digested pickles left floating russet solid in the toilet bowl needing no more than a one liter flush for environmental purposes

climate change from C02
Hey sorry. i do believe that C02 is the current cause of this climate shift.
We can measure it. A physics law was developed years ago and agreed upon by all scientists that C02, methane and a few other gasses trap heat warming the earth. But you are arguing that C02 is not the cause of global warming. Last time I checked conservatives were saying the Thermometers were wrong or just put in the wrong place like close to cities where it is warmer. Guess the NASA thermometer statement fooled me. Now you are saying global climate change REALLY IS happening. Wow! progress.
I'll check back in a couple of years and see how you are doing. Bye.


For those who really believe in AGW
You really should be looking to move to a cooler climate. And I'll sell you a beautiful lot in Greenland. (You just have to wait a few years for the ice to melt before building or farming.) Get in on it while the price is a few dollars per square mile! Send me your down payment and how many square miles you want.

ID vs. AGW
Would it be starting a whole other discussion to mention that there is more evidence for Intelligent Design than there is for Anthropogenic Globull Warming?

chicaree
What came first? CO2 or Warming? Should we just all stop exhaling since CO2 is so dangerous? Do a little reading. You'll feel better.

Beeblebrox
Rabble-rouser! Did you see how many posts were on the last thread about ID? Sheesh!

Actually (Darwinism and AGW) are very similar. They posit a theory and then try to figure out a way to prove it instead of the other way around.

Virgins and Volcanoes
This is the same old scam revisited.
The priestly class, tired of mundane labor decide to unveil yet another threat to the tribe; a threat that only they can fully comprehend and deal with.
This not only gets them out of regular work, they get recognition, time to lay about in splendor, and they get to extract goods and services from the working stiffs. In short; they get rich selling snake oil.
They come up with new and exciting 'cures' for the dilemma and browbeat the ruling class into chucking virgins into volcanoes, making everybody sing along to their bongo songs, while they are exempt from the rules they set for others.
As Mark Twain said: "It was OK for her, 'cause she did it herself."
I cast a jaundiced eye on the priest class of today. They are tired old bores. Their theories full of holes, they cast aspersions at those who dare question them. Yawn.
Lazlo quotes Twain again: "You want to show us a corpse, trot out a fresh one."

chicaree
The most recent science indicates that CO2 is the RESULT, not the CAUSE, of global warming.

The number 1 greenhouse gas is, of course, water vapor (clouds, to those in Rio Linda). CO2 is way down on the list (below O2).

Believe what you want (it's still allowed in the USA), but do not affect my quality of life with phony science and propaganda. That's a line you do not want to cross.

Lazlo
Couldn't agree more, except that the hysteria is turning into laws that will impact my life and my checkbook. I don't mind if people want to buy the snake oil...I just don't want to be forced to swallow it too.

No one to blame but yourselves
It's always a bad idea to politicize science.

Calling liberals whack jobs, insane and evil may make you feel good, may make you feel self-righteous and one with God, may substitute for your complete lack of sex life, but it will change public minds.

If the debate were left to the scientists then public mood might change.

However, that's not what happened. What happened is that over the last 20 years the right has made their case extremely political and extremely personal. The politics of destruction of Al Gore etc.

Like the boy who cries wolf one too many times, the right will be completely ignored on this issue no matter the science.

That's because the right is far more interested in getting their rocks off bashing liberals than setting the record straight.

That's a tune the public has heard ad nauseum over the last thirty years and quite frankly is getting tired of it.

Your children are not going to thank you. They are going to scorn you for choosing the entertainment motive of gleefully calling liberals insane, over engage in a scientific discussion.

The right wing has castrated itself, made itself completely impotent in the greater publics mind within the US and completely lost any sense of world respect precisely because its all politics of ridicule all-the-time. It's telling, I think, that Reagan had world-wide respect as a conservative leader and NO ONE on the right can come close to matching that today. No one.

You have to give respect to get any. Say what you will about the liberals, but they can preach to the world. Conservatives have boxed themselves into a corner with their hate UN, hate the world, ridicule the UN, ridicule the world attitude.

Driesan and the rest of you are worthless as advocates because you have neutered yourself. There is no notion that anyone would ever respect what you all have to say because the minute someone opens a dialog they get ridiculed to no end.


No one to blame but yourselves
It's always a bad idea to politicize science.

Calling liberals whack jobs, insane and evil may make you feel good, may make you feel self-righteous and one with God, may substitute for your complete lack of sex life, but it will change public minds.

If the debate were left to the scientists then public mood might change.

However, that's not what happened. What happened is that over the last 20 years the right has made their case extremely political and extremely personal. The politics of destruction of Al Gore etc.

Like the boy who cries wolf one too many times, the right will be completely ignored on this issue no matter the science.

That's because the right is far more interested in getting their rocks off bashing liberals than setting the record straight.

That's a tune the public has heard ad nauseum over the last thirty years and quite frankly is getting tired of it.

Your children are not going to thank you. They are going to scorn you for choosing the entertainment motive of gleefully calling liberals insane over engaging in a scientific discussion.

The right wing has castrated itself, made itself completely impotent in the greater publics mind within the US and completely lost any sense of world respect precisely because its all politics of ridicule all-the-time. It's telling, I think, that Reagan had world-wide respect as a conservative leader and NO ONE on the right can come close to matching that today. No one.

You have to give respect to get any. Say what you will about the liberals, but they can preach to the world. Conservatives have boxed themselves into a corner with their hate UN, hate the world, ridicule the UN, ridicule the world attitude.

Driesan and the rest of you are worthless as advocates because you have neutered yourself.


drivebyposting
So, you're saying that Al Gore's proposal isn't political? If anyone on this thread called a Liberal a "whack job" or "evil" I missed it. Insane? Maybe.

Good argument there that conservatives have a complete lack of a "sex life." How did you determine that? Or is that a scientific study done by Al Gore?

Follow the money. Look beneath the hysteria and set aside your prejudices long enough to entertain the notion that "consensus" is not "Science." That computer models are imperfect. And that the political adjenda is what is animating this public debate.

If it was just a scientific discussion we wouldn't even have heard about it, nor would there be stupid SCOTUS decisions that claim CO2 is a pollutant! Get a grip! Do some serious study. You might be surprised that the mantra of Al Gore is based on exaggeration, hype and hysteria.

Al Gore is no scientist...
As one trained in science it was quite easy to know from the get-go that Al Gore was ignorant of science when he stated that the global warming issue is "settled."

Scientists and those knowledgeable of science and its uncertainties would never have uttered that word.

The mantra
> the mantra of Al Gore is based on exaggeration, hype and hysteria.<

Kinda like the mantra that all Muslims want to kill you.

utahnotmormon
Read the Koran lately?

Ahh Utahmoron: Exactly what we's expect

from you. No surprise here.

As the water was up to the gunwales, you'd be saying, "This boat is NOT sinking! You folks are just exaggerating and panicking... This boat is NOT sinking...."


Reality Check Please
In California, as you know...our party is losing numbers. An astonishing 30 of the 32 Republican Assembly districts lost registered Republicans this year. Since 2005, we've lost 370,000 registered Republicans statewide. In just the last eight months, our numbers have declined by 120,000.

In 1967, when Ronald Reagan spoke to the California Republican Assembly, he said:

"We cannot become a narrow sectarian party in which all must swear allegiance to prescribed commandments. Such a party can be highly disciplined, but it does not win elections. This kind of party soon disappears in a blaze of glorious defeat."

According to the polls, nearly three-quarters of our own party support the global warming bill that I signed last year. They want this party to do something more about climate change than simply doubt it. If it is the policy of the Republican Party to ignore the great majority of the world's scientists...to ignore the views of 80 percent of the young people who believe the same...then that party is at odds with the future. The Republican Party needs once again to be the party of Teddy Roosevelt conservationists.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2007/09/schwarzenegger-.html#more


Seventh Degree: Excellent points!!!


Al Gore is obviously and absolutley ignorant of a lot of things... science among them.

While math and science give me hives (they really do...) even I know that no one with two functioning brian cells would ever use the terms "science" and "settled" in the same sentence!


Reality check
A lie told often enough takes on the mantle of truth. No debate is entertained. As Al said, it's "Settled"

I find it appalling that poll numbers trump reasoned debate.

I will continue to dispute the lock-step acceptance of AGW.

When the costs are weighed against the benefits, I will start to listen to the 'alarmists' Til the Gestapo-like tactics that stifle debate on this issue stop, I will dispute the claims of Al Gore.

READ, people. Read. Science that says our puny little selves are destroying the planet that has survived quite well without us for a long, long time is (rightly) subject to skepticism and ridicule.

You can fool all of the people some of the time. Al is on his way to proving that. Doesn't make it true.

Drive by
The reason CA is loosing repubs is that they are moving to AZ, unfortunately, they are bringing their CA Repub ideas with them.

And as far as it goes, so what if the majority believe in global warming?? There seems to be more evidence coming to light every day that refutes the Greenies and Algor. I guess, we should just abandon our principles, and fold, just because the MAJORITY believes we are wrong. There comes a time when you stand for that which you believe is right. It's not like Arneld is a big time intellect or a true conservitive.

Anne writes:
Saturday, September, 08, 2007 2:57 PM
"...Al Gore is obviously and absolutley ignorant of a lot of things... science among them..."

===================

As far as I can tell, this is a man who has "dabbled" in being a clerk in the service/then a short stay at seminary school/ and finally years of politics - ALL without the background necessary for said activities!!!

And yet he pontificates as if he were knowledgeable...and there are those who actually believe him. COUNT ME AS ONE WHO DOES NOT!!!

Great article, Mr. Driessen
"It’s time to ask: At what point do symbolic gestures and political grandstanding become “doing something” about climate change? At what point do they amount to insanity?

Many suspect that anxiety about climate change was never really about preventing a global warming – or global cooling – catastrophe. Instead, they say, the real purpose is controlling energy use, economic growth and people’s lives. Alarmist efforts to intimidate climate catastrophe skeptics and legislate mandatory energy restrictions suggest that these suspicions are valid, and that climate doomsayers are becoming increasingly desperate."

========================
Your summation says it all!

Until abusers of energy such as the celebs you mentioned begin to lessen their footprint on our earth, there is no need to even waste our time listening to them. These people are genuine hypocrites!

On another note, we saw an SUV the other day with a bumper sticker stating the owner has purchased carbon offsets...guess that will help fill Al Gore's bank account and enable him to continue spewing forth lies!!!

Party Politics
Pro-choice Republicans.

Last poll I read sad that upwards of 40% of Republicans were pro-choice.

Ever see one write an op-ed? Ever hear one call into a talk show?

The issue isn't whether *you* believe in global warming. The issue is how Republicans are going to handle the issue.

Well, those Republicans who believe in global warming and who are pro-choice and who are centrists have been frozen out of the political discussion. There can be no dissent within the ranks.

I dare you to find one Town Hall op/ed columnist who supports global warming even though millions of Republicans do. Same with pro-choice. Find a pro-choice Republican even though millions of Republicans are pro-choice.

That's were it's today. And the centrist Republicans are leaving the party in droves. The likes of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are nothing more than thugs who insure the prescribed commandments are saluted by beating up those who are puritanical.

The best line on global warming to date was said by Al Gore, which I'm sure he picked up somewhere else. Al said, "How can you trust scientists who can't predict weather for more than a week out to predict weather 100 years from now?"

Being a total skeptic is the cop out solution. The confidence in global warming models is not 100%, not 50% but something more like 30%. Yet the question before us is are we being responsible parents of future generations given a 30% confidence and we do nothing?

That is the question most people are facing and most people are deciding "yes, we need to do something." Mock them, slight them, and laugh at them all you want. But its bad politics.

Republicans need to quit being Nazi's about what it means to be a Republican. Yes, pro-choice Republicans do exist and their opinions should be welcomed, not ridiculed. Same with global warming. But that ain't happening and the party is dying because of it.

drivebyposting: Did you have a point?
.

Lies, damn lies, & statistic
In graduate school for one quantative methods course, we had to use a statistical model and 10 years of quarterly data to predict anything we wanted. Liking beer, I decided to determine statistically the best predictor of beer sales in the University community. I had to have at least 38 sets of data. Grasping for data, I threw in some wild things (even though logically they are hardly related to beer sales), including GNP. As you guessed, GNP was the best predictor of beer sales in the University community. We all got a laugh from this and the professor used this as an example of the improper use of data and statistics. My grade on this? An "A" of course - the Prof. liked beer too! :-)

drivebyposting
I don't agree with your rubric that it is bad politics to disagree with members of your party, and that dis-unity within the ranks is killing the party.

The Democrats illustrate that only those who walk in lock-step can be a Democrat. So, how can any voter make a selection if all Democrats spout the same "party line?" during the campaign and then vote "their conscience" during their term.

Most "Nazi-like" behavior seems to be exhibited on the Left side of the aisle. AGW is but one example where dissent is suppressed and those who express doubts are demonized as (how did you characterize Hannity and Limbaugh?) THUGS.

I have no great love of Republicans or Democrats, because I think most polititians are corrupt and only concerned with lining their own pockets and getting re-elected. Still, Republicans (if they'd vote according to the principles expressed in the platform) offer a political stance more in line with what I believe.

Scare tactics that we need to embrace and welcome all to the Republican Party that seems at its core to serve to water-down the solid principles that conservatives believe in may be a political ploy, but it's not very honest.

All those
believers in Gore,and global warming crowd, can rest in the knowledge that Osama Bin Laden is in agreement with them. According to his last tape. Course he agrees with most of the liberals on everything.

The many flavors of fanatic pt 5
Sorry I'm late, had to go munch on some nitro. I placed this one at number 5 to keep the anarchist last.

5. The con-man. This group of people make up a large percentage of the AGW crowd. They may or may not believe in the global warming scenario, however the one thing they do believe in is making a buck. Anytime that the government becomes engaged in a policy change it opens the way for profiteering. The conmen know this and will encourage these policy changes, whether they are based on real needs or not. This is why the initial efforts to influence the government to global warming were done by Enron and massive donations were given to Clinton and Gore to help that influence. Enron is the one who developed the Cap and .Trade swindle, as well as the carbon sink myth. Their intent was to have the government develop their standard so that they could profit. These people are usually well educated and are often trained in science. They know that CO2 is not causing the warming, but their motto is “why let facts stand in the way of profit?” These people split their vote between the parties but contribute most heavily to the “in power” party. Their aim is not to forward any political philosophy, but to forward their own financial interests.

Mrs paddy
Pay no attention to the creature behind the curtain. Drivebyposting is a liberal troll who comes on here to change the topic and castigate Republicans at every opportunity. He is not, and has never been a Republican. He is eat up with Bush Derangement Syndrome and loves all things socialist.

It's more correct to say that Al
Gore is selling carbon offsets. He and a Goldman Sachs buddy of his have set up a carbon offsets trading company, and the offsets are provided to Gore because of his association with the company. When Gore was testifying before Congress, he was actually just lobbying for his company, which stands to make mucho dinero if carbon offset trading becomes a reality. Just a run of the mill capitalist - who would have thought it? You know, when it comes to their own rather than someone else's money, practically everyone is a run of the mill capitalist.

Global warming insanity?
Funny that no skeptics of AGW ever get their points pointed in reputable peer reviewed science journals isn`t it? Just for the record the NAS, AAAS,NOAA, NASA and the EPA plus all their overseas counterparts have made public statements saying human induced climate change is real, just like the climatology experts on the IPCC panel The handful of "skeptics" are stooges of big oil and are frankly no more credible than halocaust deniers.

Why does the far right have sooooo many issues with science? Look how many of these kooks tout the asinine notion of teaching creationism to kids in the science class!

Britboy
You seem to have a problem with the facts. There has been a lot more money into the AGW crowd than the opposite. There are more real scientists who don't agree with the fraudulent UN non-science. And finally, everyone who pushes this fraud belongs in jail.

Well folks, I hate to run
again but I need to see about supper and the GA/SC game.

Britboy: Sorry, JUST NOT TRUE!

"....record the NAS, AAAS,NOAA, NASA and the EPA plus all their overseas counterparts have made public statements saying human induced climate change is real, just like the climatology experts on the IPCC panel The handful of "skeptics" are stooges of big oil and are frankly no more credible than halocaust deniers."

You need to do more research!!

And, clearly you missed this in Driessen's column.

"....climate holocaust “deniers” had received $19 million from industry, to subvert the “consensus” it claims exists about global warming. It made no mention of the $50 BILLION that alarmists and other beneficiaries have received since 1990..."


As many of you know
Eventually the earth will be hit by a comet or other cosmic object. When this object strikes it will be a disaster. 98.98876% of mankind will be destroyed. Only Tibetans high up in the mountains will survive. I have developed a shield that can protect us from this catastrophy. Unfortunetly though my prototype works scaling it up is extreamly expensive I need the government to fund my project please help or send your contibutions to: NOT
More sky is falling BS. Besides every couple of hundred thousand years we have an Ice Age. Then the Damn glaciers melt and flood the low lands. People you just gotta buy a camper and keep on the move.

response to chicaree
Chicaree, I presume that the temperature increasing relative to percentage in atmosphere of CO2 increasing that you're referring to is Boyles Law? If this is the case, then please consider:

As wikipedia says (correctly in this case) “For a fixed amount of gas kept at a fixed temperature, P and V are inversely proportional.” Short form: PV=nRT.

Now, overall pressure (P) changes on a regular basis. High and low pressure areas drive weather.

The volume of gas in the atmosphere changes all the time too. A minute percentage is lost to space, even more is lost to solution in water (yes, solubility in water drops as temperature increases, but it's never caused a runaway feedback loop before so why start now?). Note that volume doesn't mean amount, it means the physical, constrained space taken up by that amount. No physical constraints on volume exist (gravitation isn't strong enough) so this formula shouldn't be used in this case.

n is the amount, in Mols, and is increasing (which is the driver of the whole discussion).

R is a constant, and irrelevant to this discussion.

Temperature (T) is the change you're expecting to see. If this is the formula you're basing it on though (and I expect it isn't, but since this law is well known it's possible) then as n increases, T must decrease proportionally to maintain a constant PV value.

further
If that wasn't the formula you meant, please reference which one you were using.

Funny how us anti-anthroprogenics are the ones who are credited with avoiding science.

Global warming insanity?
Anne...then show me a link to a prominent peer reviewed science journal or something like a National Science Academy to back up your claims. You can`t, because they don`t exist. Only ultra free market think tanks tout climate skeptism nowadays because they are ideologically against any government regulation of industry...including banning CFCs despite the proven fact that they destroy Ozone in the Stratosphere. These same groups also opposed the mandatory insertion of scrubbers into power plant cooling towers to stop sulfur emissions from them causing acid rain. They are stooges of industry and not credible.

Oh pa-lease, Britboy, there are so many

links the page would be one blue link after another.

Do your own research.........

Right, like THAT will ever happen!!!!!

Typical of the "warmies" you ONLY want to believe what you want to believe, and put your fingers in your ears, and walk away saying, "I can't hear you.... la la la la la .... I can't hear you...." Typical of a petulant 7 year old.




CHICAREE

.....Listen up my little chickaree ...for tens of thousands of years most of our Southwest was under a shallow sea and our climate was one of a desert ....about ten thousand years ago when the last ice age began to recede ...a one mile thick sheet of ice extended down to New York city ...

.....and now ...grab your socks ...all this climate change is caused by a star ...that's right it is our own Sun that is responsible ...kind of makes man seem like the insignificant little pizz ant he really is ...doesn't it .....COLOSSUS

britboy
Here's a list of prominent folks who would disagree that it's all settled. If the link doesn't work, google "national post" "the deniers" "warming is real" Sorry about the extra width folks.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/environment/story.html?id=4432a41c-7c52-4b74-934e-f0dac3b2bcb8

It's a list of scientists whose research disagrees with the current "consensus". Even though in some cases they don't want their names attached as contrary to the goose that lays the golden eggs (eg the astrophysist who says that of course the sun has a variable output but he doesn't think the sun affects earths climate as much as mankind).

Tell you what, Britboy...
You pay me $5 American for every article I find in a peer-reviewed science journal that does not adhere to the anthropocentric global warming line, and I'll go hunt down some articles for you. But I'll insist that you put up some front money -- say, $200 -- with some neutral party, because you're going to welch, I just know your type.

Deal?

I'm anticipating I'll find at least 400 in the next week. But I want to get paid, it'll take some time. Put up the money, and we'll just see how few peer-reviewed articles there truly are.

Hope your bank account's in good shape, Britboy...

Oh no!
Baseball doc If you are correct we have been warming up for 10000 years already. Pretty soon I'll be able to make tea without the stove. I bet the polar bears will start to go bald soon. I live in the north east when will I be able to plant palm trees?

inkling_revival: You'll get a several

hundred in less than an hour. It'll be the quickest $300-$400 you'll ever have made. :-)

Heck, I've got tons on file that I'll be happy to give you, and I won't even want a cut! LOL

Bet we won't be hearing from Britboy anymore... heh heh heh!


Hold on there, hagar... We haven't had

ONE official "heat wave" all summer.

I wouldn't go buying up a bunch of palm trees too soon.. LOL


Global Warming is a Politicians Dream
Think about it. They love to tax. Tax income. Tax capital gains. Tax death. Tax business transactions. Now, CO2 is deemed a pollutant. But since CO2 is continuously produced by all humans, now the politicians will be able to tax life itself. Oh goody. And it's no accident that the party that tends to be for higher taxes is also the one that's talking up global warming. Want a (partial) cure for global warming, or at least CO2 generation, as it's counted by Kyoto? How about shutting down illegal immigration, since all those illegals just add to the U.S. CO2 emissions? What, you say. I haven't heard any politicians discussing that as an option. No I guess not. Or they could live a simpler lifestyle. What's that you say, Mr. Gore? Did you know John Kerry has written a book about how to live in harmony with environmental principles. John Kerry. Now how funny is that?

Gorebull warmins is for real.
And if you do not believe it, I will jump on my private jet to prove it.

algore

Scientists?
I have heard polititions, Talk show hosts, movie stars and hippies swear that "man made globle warming was real" and that we "mortals" could actually do something about it. I have not heard an accredited scientists with a degree in climatology say that this was true.(and I am a real newshound junky. How come? can someone please explain this to me? However, I have heard many accredited Climatolagists say that it is NOT true and instead of getting a serious debate going, they recieved DEATH THREATS.
And the Globle warming faithful wonder why they have no credability. Think about it and listen to their retoric; They want Globle warming to be real. They want everyone to have to abandon their SUV beside the road. They WANT our economy to tank and allof us middle income people to either die or live under a bridge. In case no one has noticed these are the same EARTH FIRST fanatics that have been trying to destroy our economy for years. (Whales, Spotted Owls, Salmon etc. A hot shot Lawyer for the Siera club once said It's a good thing that the spotted owl evolved in the pacific NW or we would have had to genetically engineer one. Can no one tell when we're being scammed?

Furthermore
I belong to one of those acronymed scientific organizations that gets quoted as saying they believe in global warming from human causes. You know what? Those people that send out such statements are journalists, not scientists. And most if not all of them are Democrats, and they can't stand George Bush, etc. And they don't canvas their membership to see where they are on global warming. They get their fellow journalists together and send out a press release saying "the organization believes ....." But the organization believes nothing they've said. It's just a bunch of overpaid journalists who run things. That's all.

Can no one tell when we're being scammed
uh, apparently not.

Proud member of the tireless minority, AGW heretic and grand pooh-bah of the Earth: "I feel fine!" club

I certainly hope that all these GW
fanatics' statements of 'truth' are being recorded. Won't it be a hoot to play them back in 20 years....at their Nuclear Winter rallies?

In this age of entitlement...
...and personal grandiosity, it is no wonder that there are people who expect even the climate to agree with their assumed truths and expectations.

I still need to know how grapes were grown in the northern UK around the time of the renaissance and yet it is too cool a climate for them now.

Britboy- watch trusting
"esteemed" groups like "The National Science Academy" as supreme authorities. For example, the CDC- which is the first organization that springs to mind for disease control in America- is dead wrong and dangerous in their position on Lyme Disease. It is ruining alot of lives.

I want to know the evidence that shows
that Polar Bears will die if the temperatures are warmer.

All I know is that we had a Polar Bear at the Los Angeles Zoo for many years. Just in case any one is confused, L.A. generally ranges from the lower 60s in the winter to around 100 or so in the summer, with a few days above or below this range.

The Polar Bear lived happily for many years, eating fish and horse meat (no Seals, no Penguins.

He finally died of old age.

The evidence that polar bears will
die if the Earth gets warmer is that over the last 35 years as the Earth got warmer the number of polar bears increased from 5,000 to 25,000. Hmm. OK, let me think about this. I guess that doesn't work out. OK, Al? Mr. Gore???? That's OK. He says it's all settled.

a question of priorities
If social conservatives refuse to accept even the theory of evolution by natural selection in the 21st century, it's rather pointless to discuss global warming with them too.

The scientific consensus in favor of evolution is as strong as for any scientific theory I've ever heard of, something like 99% of all scientists in a dozen different scientific fields. The few skeptics, like Behe, have been debunked, repeatedly. Yet at least three GOP candidates for President simply refused to accept evolution as true.

That level of willful anti-scientific blindness is also getting in the way of an intelligent informed discussion on global warming. Or embryonic stem cell research. Or just about any aspect of science that should not be subordinated to religious dogma or politics.

Alex: You're a hoot! :-)

In fact, just the other day I was lamenting about what we'd have to chuckle about when ronniepaul is left in the dust, and then I thought, "Oh yeah, we still have ga-lo-BULL warming..! No problem!" LOL

But, it's looking as though the wheels are coming off THAT little wagon... So now what???

Not to worry, no doubt the lemming liberals will come up with some other lunatic idea about something that we'll have to chuckle and laugh about.

That's cool! :-)




Britain and Germany and Kyoto
Germany regularly runs 10-13% unemployment. It's normal for Ger. but would be considered in extremis for the US, where we are currently at 4.6% unemployment, lowest since WW II. When unemp. is 7% here, we think we're in a major recssion.

Germany also gets 25% of its power from nuclear plants, which natch, the Greens have now voted to stop producing. But they do not produce either water vapor or CO2.

Ger. has no oil of its own, and all is imported. Gas is $5-6 a liter. Many people simply don't have cars, and the cars they have are mostly deisel. Ams. think a family of four with 2 teens need 5 vehicles, one for each and an SUV for family reunions.

Eng. is not the mess it was 20 years ago before Thatcher, but it is still not the poster child for ec. success. Central heating was practically unheard of merely a quarter century ago. You can still sit around pubs and hear people talking about whether they turned the heat on in Oct.

Even if Ger. and Grt., Brit achieve Kyoto whatevers, does anyone believe Kyoto--which is a UN concoction to stop capitalism in the West-- will in any way affect global temps.? NO. Will it be good in any way for West. society? NO. As Kyoto doesn't apply to China, India, most of Africa, Asia, and S. America, will any nations meeting Kyoto standards mean anything? NO.

The truth is no country will make the Kyoto goals of reducing emissions to 1990 levels or lower, not if they want population growth and job creation, the standard of living their parents enjoyed, and a prosperous future for their children.

SteveL I take umbrage
If you want to admit your ancestors were ape's thats fine I prefer to believe I was made in GOD's image. Now it is possible however that thats just true for me :-}

I'm a proud Denier
I'm proud to be labled as a "Denier" by acolytes of the "The Church of Gorebull Warming".

and I'm in pretty good company according to the article in this link. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

Here's a Long list of Real scientists, (You know climatologists and such) who all think gore is full of it. Including the former head of the UNCC report who had to sue to get his name off the finished report. Kinda blows away the "The science is settled" argument in my opinion.

It's painfully obvious to someone who isn't completely warped by the latest chicken little theory, AGW is just the latest in a Long long list of failed scams and some that changed our lives without ever actually solving a problem.

Lets see, anyone remember a little book named Silent Spring, claiming that DDT would kill all the birds and bees? The inventor would drink the stuff to prove it wasn't harmful, but it didn't make a difference, DDT was banned worldwide, and Millions of people in 3rd world countries died of malaria. (Oh by the way, the author of that book is Gore's heroine, he dedicated "Earth in the Lurch" to her.)

in the 70s it Was global Cooling, and newsweek warned us we would all freeze to death.

In the 80s it was the "Hole in the Ozone Layer" that was going to be our demise unless we all gave up CFCs and Freon in our AC. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about that?

Of course in between we've had minor outbreaks of lunacy, Remember tree huggers killing loggers to save spotted owls?

It's all part of the same lunacy that makes so many people fall for the feces that falls out of Hillary's mouth.

If algore believed in AGW so much how come he refuses to take the bet that some guy offered to prove it?

The AGW crowd wants us to give up our religions and Join theirs.







thank you SteveL
for showing that "the deniers" have won, by how adeptly you try to change topics.

Oh, and last I heard, adult stem cell derived research had about 70 treatments at the field testing stage, and embryonic research had zero. Despite the potential fun in that sub-thread, this discussion is about global warming.

Have you checked out "the deniers" series in the National Post yet? It seems senior scientists (who are less concerned with where their next funding influx are coming from) are more likely to oppose global warming.

Polar Bears
Unless you believe that the polar bears evolved within the last 800 years or so (since the medieval warm period), and never existed before that, then their current existence is proof that they can thrive during warm cycles.

The AGW cultists just invent stories to scare little children. Anyone who actually looks at the real evidence knows its a scam. Anyone who bothers to run an experiment or two can prove that atmospheric CO2 concentration follows global temperatures, not the other way around. The AGW cultists probably also believe that cancer causes smoking.

Some Little Details?
Fascinating how some are quick to dismiss decades of intensive research (much of it repeatedly affirmed) without having a cursory understanding. Often because they listen only to a subset of vocal contrarians (not necessarily research climatologists). But what I'm most interested in is the established, reviewed science, not the highly speculative stuff like geologic cataclysm or the 1970's "global cooling" business that deniers exaggerate based on a Newsweek article (try a search for "global cooling myth").

Then the speculation about Greenland being blanketed in forests because DNA was found under the part of the ice sheet. Greenland hasn't always been representative of major GLOBAL change (if it were ~400,000 years ago, what mammals would've been "basking" in it?). But aren't we lucky to be thriving in such a mild period? Coincidence? And global-scale warming events have been much slower in at least the past 2 million years. Rate of change is important. In the case of ice sheets, it helps determine whether feedbacks cause accelerated flow and disintegration.

On the rest, Frey is right. So much of it has been addressed repeatedly. Just a few to consider:

On the NASA surface temperature error (Driessen doesn't seem to note that this ONLY affected one U.S. dataset, with negligble impact on the global averages):
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/08/global_warming_totally_disprov.php

On solar change (modest contribution to 20th century warming and no trend in cosmic rays regardless of their actual significance), and supposed ocean cooling (which over a few years wouldn't necessarily mean much climatically), the CO2-follows-warming partial truth, and the often misrepresented or misinterpreted research on hurricane influence:
http://globalwarmingtruth.org (#'s 10, 13, 14, and 26)

And on urban heat effects:
http://gristmill.grist.org/print/2006/10/26/224634/48?show_comments=no

Ethanol as an answer
Single issue: how much petroleum is expended to distill a gallon of ethanol? Remember that ethanol is supposed to be a substitute for petroleum. The probable truth has been found as scientists Tad Patzek of Berkeley and David Pinentel of Cornell argue that the process of making ehtanon and transporting it uses more energy than the end product yields. Add one more fact: Distilling corn into ethanol has caused its price to jump, making animal and poor people's food much more expensive. This choice could only be political.

Just for fun
Just for fun, run a simple experiment or two yourself. First, CO2 doesn’t just reflect heat back down to earth. It also reflects heat from external sources (like the sun). The reflective and transmissive characteristics of CO2 at various wavelengths are well known, and simple to measure. Designing an experiment to measure these is trivial. But go ahead, prove it for yourself.

What this means is CO2 has both warming and cooling effects. Which results in a more even temperature; not quite as hot during the day, not quite as cold at night.

Next, its easy to show experimentally that CO2 concentration in the atmosphere follows global temperature. Take a sealed container containing both water and ordinary air. Vary the temperature (while keeping the pressure constant). Measure the temperature and CO2 concentration in the air and plot vs time. If the temperature goes up, the CO2 concentration goes up a little while later. Lower the temperature and a little bit later the CO2 concentration goes down.

Now, for the fun part. Keep the temperature and pressure constant. Change the CO2 partial pressure (try increasing it and then decreasing it). The results are interesting!

That should settle any arguments about human CO2 emissions causing global warming, if you believe your own measurements.

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