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Saturday, October 21, 2006
Paul Driessen :: Townhall.com Columnist
The real climate change catastrophe
by Paul Driessen
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Every snowstorm, hurricane, deluge or drought generates headlines, horror movies and television specials, demanding action to avoid imminent climate catastrophe. Skeptics are pilloried, labeled “climate criminals,” and threatened with “Nuremberg-style war crimes trials.”

Britain’s Royal Society has demanded that ExxonMobil stop funding researchers who say global warming is primarily the result of natural forces. Meanwhile, scientist James Hansen received $250,000 from Teresa Heinz-Kerry for insisting that warming is due to humans, and “socially responsible” investor services refuse to list or recommend corporations they deem insufficiently sensitive on the subject.

Not surprisingly, companies from Wal-Mart to BP, GE and JP Morgan have brought climate activists into their board rooms, lobbied Congress for climate and ethanol legislation, and retooled to produce new product lines intended to boost tax subsidies, favorable PR and profits.

But are these actions socially responsible or in the best interests of society as a whole?

Asserting “the science is settled” ignores the debate that still rages. Proclaiming that “climate change is real” ignores Earth’s constant, natural warming and cooling.

Vikings raised crops and cattle in Greenland 1000 years ago, while Britons grew grapes in England. Four hundred years later, the Vikings were frozen out, Europe was gripped in a Little Ice Age, and priests performed exorcisms on advancing Swiss glaciers. The globe warmed in 1850-1940, cooled for the next 35 years, then warmed slightly again.

Detroit experienced six snowstorms in April 1868, frosts in August 1869, a 98-degree heat wave in June 1874, and ice-free lakes in January 1877. Wisconsin’s record high of 114 degrees F in July 1936 was followed five years later by a record July low of 46. In 1980, five years after Newsweek’s “new little ice age” cover story, Washington, DC endured 67 days above 90 degrees.

Studies by National Academy of Sciences, NOAA, Danish and other scientists continue to raise inconvenient truths that question and contradict catastrophic climate change theories, computer models and assertions. The “hockey stick” temperature graph (which claimed 1990-2000 was the hottest decade in 1000 years) was shown to be invalid; the Southern Hemisphere has not warmed in the past 25 years; the US is yet to be hit by a major hurricane in 2006; interior Greenland and Antarctica are gaining ice mass, not losing it; and Gulf Stream circulation has not slowed, as claimed in 2005.

Other recent studies conclude the sun’s radiant heat and cosmic ray levels affect planetary warming and cloud formation more strongly than acknowledged by climate alarmists. That’s logical. Why would natural forces that caused climate change and bizarre weather in past centuries suddenly stop working?

Why would we assume (as many climate models do) that energy, transportation and pollution control technologies will suddenly stagnate at 2000 levels, after the amazing advances of the previous century? And can we afford the Quixotic attempt to stall or prevent future climate change?

Just the current Kyoto Protocol could cost the world up to $1 trillion per year, in regulatory bills, higher energy costs and lost productivity. That’s several times more than the price tag for providing the world with clean drinking water and sanitation – which would prevent millions of deaths annually from intestinal diseases.

Over 2 billion of the Earth’s citizens still do not have electricity, to provide basic necessities like lights, refrigeration and modern hospitals. Instead they breathe polluted smoke from wood and dung fires, and die by the millions from lung diseases. But opposition to fossil fuel power plants, in the name of preventing climate change, ensures that these “indigenous” lifestyles, diseases and deaths will continue.

Opposition to hydroelectric projects (damming rivers) and nuclear power (radioactive wastes) likewise perpetuates endemic Third World poverty. So would a new European Union proposal to tax imports from China, India and other poor countries that are exempt from the Kyoto Protocol, because this gives them an “unfair trade advantage” over EU countries that are struggling to meet their Kyoto #1 commitments.

But UK Climate Change Minister Ian Pearson insists that climate change “is one of the most pressing issues facing countries in sub-Saharan Africa.” And environmental zealots blame malaria rates on climate change, to deflect charges that their callous opposition to insecticides is killing African babies.

Elsewhere, government and private studies calculate that the Protocol would cost the United States up to $348 billion in 2012. The average American family of four would pay an extra $2,700 annually for energy and consumer goods, and in US minority communities, the climate treaty would destroy 1.3 million jobs and “substantially affect” standards of living.

Yet, even perfect compliance with Kyoto would result in Earth’s temperature being only 0.2 degrees F less by 2050 than under a business-as-usual scenario. Assuming humans really are the culprits, actually controlling theoretical global temperature increases would require 40 Kyoto treaties – each one more restrictive, each one expanding government control over housing, transportation, heating, cooling and manufacturing decisions.

The real danger is that we will handcuff economies and hammer poor families, to promote solutions which won’t solve a problem that the evidence increasingly suggests is moderate, manageable and primarily natural in origin.

The real catastrophe is that we are already using overwrought claims about a climate cataclysm to justify depriving Earth’s most impoverished citizens of electricity and other modern technologies that would make their lives infinitely better.

Real ethics and social responsibility would weigh these costs and benefits, foster robust debate about every aspect of climate change, ensure continued technological advancement, and give a seat at the decision table to the real stakeholders: not climate alarmists – but those who have to live with the consequences of decisions that affect their access to energy, health, hope, opportunity and prosperity.

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About The Author
Paul Driessen is senior policy adviser for the Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT), which is sponsoring the All Pain No Gain petition against global-warming hype. He also is a senior policy adviser to the Congress of Racial Equality and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green Power - Black Death.

Be the first to read Paul Driessen's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Straw Man Agument
Mr Driessen claims
'Proclaiming that “climate change is real” ignores Earth’s constant, natural warming and cooling.'

This is a fallacy! The argument is not that the earth's climate hasn't changed in the past, or won't change in the future. In-fact the evidence is that the past climate has changed much more that would be liveable in by humans. The argument is that the rapidity and extent of climate change has altered enormously. I refer you
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/images/c/c1/2000_Year_Tempe rature_Comparison.png
The recent anomalous temperature increase cannot be reasonably accounted for without the increases in atmospheric CO2. It is true that the solar link has not been properly established, but it's not for the want of trying. The mechanism is not well understood and there is insufficient evidence to show that solar output is increasing. The most trusted studies show that output is declining, or is at a minimum. At most, the solar contribution to recent warming is small, rather less than that of CO2.

Debate - or Science
One gets the distinct impression from Driessen that he considers that debate is a substitute for science. I don't think this is a line of argument that can be taken seriously.

Mr Driessen claims
'Asserting “the science is settled” ignores the debate that still rages.'

But what is the nature of the so-called debate?
Amongst most scientists, the debate is about minor details. The tiny minority of scientists who are arguing that man is not responsible seem mostly [if not all] to be funded by the fossil-fuel industry via self-proclaimed 'independent' think-tanks like the Heartland, Cato or the George C. Marshall Institutes (there are many others).
Note that this small cadre of scientists are not all climatologists and they mostly publish their spurious scientific arguments in NewsWeek, the Wall Street Journal and other non-scientific outlets. They are mostly not doing any research. There is only a tiny amount of science to support them, but there is a lot of fossil-fuel money ( mostly oil and coal)!
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/global_warming/exxon _report.pdf
http://www.exxonsecrets.org

The majority of climate scientists agree largely with the IPCC reports.
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm

The evidence of GW is 'unequivocal' – IPCC.

'The understanding of anthropogenic warming and cooling influences on climate has improved since the TAR, leading to very high confidence [at least 9 out of 10] that the global average net effect of human activities since 1750 has been one of warming, with a radiative forcing of +1.6 [+0.6 to +2.4] W m–2 (see Figure SPM.2). {2.3., 6.5, 2.9}' - IPCC

Hockey-Stick
I am not going to dissect Driessen's error strewn [ahem] article, suffice to say that Mr Dreissen is unreliable as a source of scientific fact.

Just one of the many errors he makes:
'The “hockey stick” temperature graph (which claimed 1990-2000 was the hottest decade in 1000 years) was shown to be invalid'.

Here is a composite graph that includes the Mann study
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/images/b/bb/1000_Year_Tempe rature_Comparison.png

Note that links to the peer-reviewed scientific article abstracts are provided. The full articles may require subscription.

FYI, the Mann study is the one in royal blue. It seems to fit-in rather well with the other nine studies. Mr Driessen's comments are looking decidedly foolish! Which is of course what they are!

Here is another composite graph for the last two millennia.

http://www.globalwarmingart.com/images/c/c1/2000_Year_Tempe rature_Comparison.png

What Did YOU Do about Climate Change?

Don't forget the ones making the mess (us) will not be those paying for it – our children or grand-children!

Those that deny anthropogenic GW may one-day be looked in the eye by their grand-children and asked, what did you do about climate change grandpa?

I will be able to say I did what I could, I tried to persuade people, but they wouldn't listen!

What will you say?


JP
you are quite versed in the subject,perhaps more so than anyone I've met.
Is this your field or just a personal interest in demasking fraud?
Tom

Stu LOL,nope not a preacher
Just a conservative that see's quite clearly the Socialist agenda in action at a snails pace.
I sell Solar and off grid products,like apliances for remote cabins.
One of the things I sell is the waterless toilet.
Right now my industry is pushing them,saying things like,water is precious,we should'nt waste it,or the diminishing supply of fresh water is at stake.
Forgive me,but I thought that the same amount of water on earth now,has always been the same since the earth began,give or take a Comet or two.
And does'nt it fall from the sky,then start all over again?
If the libs. can put a lock on our water,they can control life in full.
You will have too pay to pee,no more going to the beach or river,they will have a fee on that too,all in the name of protecting the planet.
What a load of sh*t!
That is why I have been so hard on you about the earth warming,it is all about money and power.
Here in California,the left taxes us on a miriad of so called environmental causes,but it all goes in the general fund.
To pay for their social programs.
Here is a site,if you don't mind a quick read,about Socialism in America.
Tell me if you see similarities in the UK.

California Bristlecones
Stu,
The Bristlecone proxy accounts for ALL of the 1983-1998 blade of MBH98's hockey stick blade. Mann weighted the entire series (transforms) on that one proxy. That is, the entire worldwide temperature spike in the 90s was associated with this one proxy. Mann threw out the Saragossa Sea proxies, the Volstock proxies, ....I could go on and on. Mann cherry picked his data.

The NAS complained the Mann's PC1 series (which smoothed out both the Medevil Warm Period and Little Ice Age) had absolutely no certainty associated with it. It also went completly against the IPCC 95 Assessment.

Mann completly ignored the 1997-1998 severe ENSO event (check the SOIs for 1997-99). Coincidently, the hockey stick blade falls off when this event was finished.

If I were you, I would read up on the basics of Principle Component Analysis, and see for yourself what some of the experts say about the slipshod work that Mann has done. You can also read up on Wegmann, Hand von Storch, and Ross McKitrick. Wegmann, BTW was on the NAS Panel, and von Storch briefed Congress. Mann refused to meet with the Panel, and to this date, he never released his full data archive, or FORTRAN source code which was used in MBH98. What is he hiding?

JP, Solar
JP, just to clear up one issue in your last post, do you mean the last 20 years (ie 1986 'till now), or some other 20-year period? I think we'd probably confine in a mental institution or at least have great pity on a scientist who relied on Bristlecone pine ring data for the last few years' temperatures when we have some pretty good mercury thermometers nowdays!

So you're not impressed by the graphs I linked to?
(Again):
http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/17.htm
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

Looks like a hockey stick to me, and the NAS think so too!

From Nature:

"The academy essentially upholds Mann's findings, although the panel concluded that systematic uncertainties in climate records from before 1600 were not communicated as clearly as they could have been. The NAS also confirmed some problems with the statistics. But the mistakes had a relatively minor impact on the overall finding"




Solar, are you a preacher? You'd be great!
I think you're absolutely right about clean fresh water being a major looming issue - even a war-starting one. Have you thought about what might be one major cause of that problem?

Private marketing of fresh water is a strongly supported model of water conservation. There's an irony, free-market believers as conservationists!

The UK government (Conservative or Labour) will tax anything that moves - or sits still, and they have come up with airline fuel taxation as a response to the concerns of the overwhelming majority of climate scientists (you may think them corrupted but surely there must still be many with a sense of integrity - a the rate most professional scientists are paid they really don't do science for the money!). The other political benefit is to the local economy as the gas-guzzling cheap airlines take fewer Brits away, and they holiday at home instead.
Will they put the tax revenue into renewable energy investment, thats the multi-million pound question.



stu: I can't make this stuff up
But no'they are'nt in it for the money.

"Foreign Secretary calls for 'global warming' tax on holidaymakers"
24.10.06

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23371971-details/Foreign+Secretary+calls+for+'global+warming'+tax+on+holidaymakers/article.do

JP-Stu
He does'nt want to hear the truth,the left is in this deep,if we prove it wrong,we will have exposed their church for lying,this is a religion to them.

The next great scare will be water!
Yes STU,water'when the left starts trying to control water more than ever,I hope you open your eye's,this will be the next left scare DuJour.
Higher prices on your water bill,in rhe form of fees,or meters on wells in the middle of nowhere,because a Socialists way of thinking is the water does'nt belong to you,it belongs to the people,so you should pay for it.
It will be disguised as clean a water bill,or Big buss. is over using their share,so lets tax them.
You probably think I'm nuts,but in the very near future,this is going to happen,and I hope you remember this conversation.
Then you will see the true intentions of the liberals/socialists agenda,Power.

The Hockey Stick Is Dead
There is nothing in the NAS Report that backs the Hockey Stick- they admitted the use of one single proxy record (bristlecone foxtail of the Great Basin) for the entire earth for the last 20 years was the cause of the spike. Mann's incorrect use of PC1 built this bias into his data set for the last 20 years of the graph. Or as Hans Von Storch complained, no matter what data you put into the formulae, you always get a hockey stick. McKitrick (1999), as well as McIntyre (2000), and Wegmann (2006) found the same bias.

To put it bluntly, Mann stacked the deck. The NAS being polite, said it differently. Mann himself still refuses to publsih his FORTRAN source code. The blade on the hockey stick is Mann's fantasy. His Principle Components were wrong (either through lousy math, or by design- he wont release his source code).

Oop
...the 10,000 year record high is still at least a likelihood...

Academy affirms hockey-stick graph
JP, Nature reported:

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060626/full/4411032a.html

"the [NAS] committee has a "high level of confidence" that the second half of the twentieth century was warmer than any other period in the past four centuries. But, [committe member] adds, claims for the earlier period covered by the study, from AD 900 to 1600, are less certain."

It seems that they have backed away from claiming that 1998 was the hottest year because tree ring data can't give good single year or single decade resolution for proxy temperature measurement. They still endorse the hockey stick, and although they don't like being seen as that certain, the 10,000 year record high ill at least a likelihood.

"The mean global surface temperature has increased by about 0.3 to 0.6°C since the late 19th century and by about 0.2 to 0.3°C over the last 40 years, which is the period with most reliable data. Recent years have been among the warmest since 1860 - the period for which instrumental records are available."
From:
http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/17.htm
Or look at:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

I work that out to be about a 0.05degC increase expected since 1999 - that would be within the margin of error for measuring temperature over that time period - just look at the small ups and downs in the graph - it could easily seem like we're cooling in the very short term - but there's no denying the hockey stick.

Don't forget the big increases in CO2 in the absence of the Southern Oscillation. How much CO2 do you think Earth and it's ecosystems can take?
We're getting warmer. Water and CO2 are fantastic at absorbing IR. Can't do much about the water. Some don't want to do much about the CO2 either.

I hope you enjoy the snow while you can!

Stu
Anyone who has studied the Mann-Bradely-Hughes (MBH98) IPCC endorsed study of 1999-2003 (the one that produced the famous Hockey Stick Graph) knows that the deck was stacked. Using one part deception (the famous Bristlecone temp proxy), and 2 parts incorrect statistical analysis (Principle Component Analysis), MBH98 was hailed as proof that the 90s was the hottest decade in 2000 years, and 1998 was the hottest year in perhaps 10,000 years. Ignored completely was the significant ENSO (El Nino Southern Oscillation) event (the strongest in 150 years). Since 1999, the earth's global mean temperature has reamined stable. As a matter of fact, several areas of the globe have significantly cooled (the Southern Hemisphere and Central Asia).

Wikipedia still posts the hockey stick graph despite the National Academy of Sciences (NAS)devastating critique of it in June 2006. Mann used one proxy -the California Bristlecone- to base his entire 1980-1998 temp spike. Mann also never gave the NAS or any other group of scientists his full data set or FORTRAN code that "smoothed out" both the Little Ice Age(LIA) and Medevil Warm Period (MWP). Other than activists, no climatoligsts use this discredited graph anyomre.

I won't even bother commenting about the "studies" which demand that AGW is causing increased tropical storm intensities. No scientist worth his slide rule would say such nonsense. Yet, the "science" community attacks Dr Grey (one of the World's premier experts on Tropical Meteorology) because he doesn't toe the line.

BTW, I write this as I look out my window on the fresh cover of new snow. October of 2006 has brought the earliest snowfall in recorded history for the Central Great Lakes.


Stu
Correction'it is happening,but not on a mesurable scale that it will have any harmful effect on humans.
To believe other wise is to fall in with the group,The sky is falling.
Im an optimist and a realist.
If it does happen on the other hand,it will be hundreds of years in the future,and nothing we do aside from not existing,is going to change what the earth has planned for us.
oh and read Shadow Party by David Horowitz,
it might help.

Stu
I never said it was'nt happening.
but most recently,models ahve down played the effects to the point of a 3 degree rise in 100 yrs.
I truly believe the scientists that discovered what is happening are very honest in their findings.
They were only speculating the possibility it was man made,but as a sceients,you must include all variables,but they were quickly shouted over by the group that wants us off petroleum all together.
My problem is the group that took on the crusade of screaming it is caused by man.
The model is NOT'complete.
This is why I just wanted you to see it with an open mind.
There is a very sinister group of people that see a great advantage for power and power.
They are called Socialists.

Spelling
...and I think you mean "bleating", not "bleeting".

Now now, Solar
You haven't actually refuted any of the evidence I've shown you. Global warming is a real phenomenon, one that could well have catastrophic results, and all you can think to do is patronise me. Aren't you above that?

Stu
I tried to get you to do some critical thinking,but to no avail.
So as you walk along with the rest of the sheep blindly following the Socialist group and their bleeting hearts.
Remember'they eat Lamb too,young one.

We need another mass exticntion!
That's the only way I can see to get out of this mess. On one hand we have the left, who are he1l bent on our extermination thru monetary collapse, or just letting our enemies overun us, and the right who refuse to think we have anything at all to do with the any of the problems we face.

We are so entrenched into two completely different opinions we have no room left for compromise.

I believe Rome had the same problem when they ended up giving up on the republic and adopted an emperer because he ended the bickering. The people just got tired of arguing and needed an iron will to tell them what to do. Everything went down hill after that.

We're pathetic!

America used to be a great nation. Now we can't agree on how to assure our own survival when confronted by a common enemy.

Solar: Follow the pro-GW money?
I didn't have to be any kind of genius to find "scientist James Hansen received $250,000 from Teresa Heinz-Kerry" in the piece above. After that, I've really struggled to find anything. Are Greenpeace putting hundreds of thousands into scientists' pockets? Wealthy democratic supporters? What money is being given to the "pro-GW lobby" (by this suppose I mean the overwhelming majority of climate scientists who are genuinely worried). Are scientists concerned they won't get grants approved unless they expect to find further evidence of global warming?
It's hard to avoid the evidence for GW...unless you shut your eyes really tightly...

Stu
Congratulations,now'do the same to the proponenets of GW,like the Kyoto treaty,or polution credits.
Believe me their on both sides,pro and con.
It truly is strictly about money.
I can't say it any clearer.

JohnR
...or swimming against reality...

Bravo to Driessen
Paul Driessen's essay demonstraes that the global warming bandwagon is smothering many important if not key crucial questions. For example, is global warming really the problem it is made out to be, is it really caused by humans, and is the trillions of dollars pricetag of the Kyoto measures going to do anything to significantly reduce warming, or will it actually cause even greater world wide problems, poverty, and suffering? To ignore or attempt to suppress these questions is unconsionable. Mr. Driessen is to be commended for his bravery in swimming against the current of contemporary groupthink and political correctness.


Solar, Follow the Money is right!
Remember the GW denials letter? Here's some conspiracy theory for you:

"Sallie Baliunas is a non-Canadian signatory to the deniers letter. She is a Harvard-Smithsonian Institute astrophysicist who has been giving global warming deniers scientific cover since the mid-1990s. She is a senior scientist at the George C. Marshall Institute (received $310,000 from Exxon Mobil). She co-wrote (with colleague Willie Soon, who did not sign the skeptics letter) the Fraser Institute pamphlet "Global warming: a guide to the science." (The Fraser Institute receives $60,000 a year from Exxon Mobil.) Baliunas is "enviro-sci" host of TechCentralStation.com (received $95,000 from Exxon Mobil) and is on science advisory boards of the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow ($252,000) and the Annapolis Center for Science-Based Public Policy ($427,500). She has given speeches before the American Enterprise Institute ($960,000) and the Heritage Foundation ($340,000). The Heartland Institute ($312,000) publishes her op-ed pieces."

Stu
Believe what you want,but just because a hand full of sceintists agreed that GW was a problem,and Gore made a movie about it,and every time a sceintist disagrees he is shouted down.
You should be very skeptical.
You should be asking why are we coming to conclusions so quickly?
Well'follow the money,their are some devious people in this world,and they will gladly use people who are'nt will to question.
So don't blindly follow,ask the tough questions.
I hope you went to the link I posted.
This is not a religion,it means control of the blind masses,that is what GW is really all about.
Good luck,you'll need it, your're young and I'm not I won't be around to see the results.

Real Science
http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/freon1.htm

I give you links to real science, you give me links to creationist conspiracy theorists who also believe smoking doesn't cause cancer!



Scientists don't even agree
I live in Alaska, where global warming is supposed to be devastating in the near-future.

Last year we came back from vacation and I was flipping through the newspapers, scanning for pertinent info before I tossed them in the recycle pile (for the woodstove). Three articles leaped out at me, all written by University of Alaska scientists.

In one, global warming was a scourge that was causing all sorts of environmental disasters; notably the tamarack trees of Interior Alaska are dying because "a cool, wet summer is almost unknown in Interior Alaska anymore." The second article talked about the cold, wet summer we'd had. The third article talked about how tamarack trees are not indigenous to Interior Alaska, but were imported by the Athabaskans about 200 years ago. They (the trees) thrived during a warm, wet period, but have been in the process of dying off since about the time white man arrived in the Interior because our climate had become colder and drier.

My point is really not to say which of these stories is true. I am not a climatologist (though I know a couple, one of whom believes in GW and the other thinks it's doubtful science) or a forestry person. However, I did notice that three scientists at PhD level couldn't seem to agree on the death of the tamarack trees. So, that makes me think that they can't really be in as monolithic agreement on GW as the media and the hysterics want us to believe.

Solar!
Tell the scientists at the UN Environmental Programme, the University of Virginia, the University of East Anglia, the UK Met Office, NASA and the National Academy of Sciences, the folks responsible for all that data, that they are morons.

stu
Try a real link,and you will see DuPont for who they really are.

http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/freon1.htm

Stu
You do realize any moron can post to Wiki. and cut and paste to their fancy.

Glad you mentioned freons
Solar, you wit. The Guardian is a tabloid and W is a brain surgeon.

Glad you mentioned the freons, we have just about eliminated freon use and now ozone levels are slowly beginning to recover. The link could not be clearer.

We're going to have to do a bit more with the CO2 thing than we did for ozone. It's harder to crack but could be profitable! Are you in for some eco-investing? People will pay good money to save the planet you know!


Still hot!
Sure. It's only the hottest we've been in 150 years.
150 years is a blip compared to the billons of years since plants started photosynthesis.

But see these nice graphs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_records#Proxies:_tree_rings.2C_ice_cores:_the_last_2000_years

The proxy measurements suggest we haven't been this hot in 12000 years. Don't you find the steep rise at the end of the tree rings proxy data even just a little alarming?

Stu
It's more as to how the facts are twisted,to fit their agenda.
Anology: Smoke is hot,therefore it must be the reason we have fires.
Well CO2 gas and other green house gasses are being viewed in the same backward manner,blame man,because!
Well this has been happening long before man ever existed,and who was to blame,you guessed it,Earth.
All the pieces to the model are not in yet,so how can they acurately predict catastrophe.
Easy'their is alot of money to be made in it.
If you don't believe me,look at the story of Freon,and it's demise.
Oh and truthbetold was right,why are you looking at a Tabloid,on par with the enquirer.

Stu
I don't know where you live, but where I live we are NOT having heavy rainstorms. We're begging for rain showers.

Where are the cat 4 and 5 hurricanes? The hurricane season has 9 more days to go for this year and there hasn't even been ONE cat 4 storm and only one weak hurricane even hit the continental US this year.

Not nearly enough data to prove anything, but enough to raise questions about the underlying THEORY.

Hey Stu..
..."...hottest years on record..."

Compare the number of recorded years vs. the life of planet Earth. Insignificant.

Just increases
truthbetold the jumps mean sudden increases, not any decreases. Year-on-year CO2 is only going up!
It's not human adaptation/evolution that is the issue. Humans will die from heat waves, or because they won't be able to feed themselves because of the ecological disruption (less oxygen in warmer water for fish, and so forth) and/or, (in the temperate zones) will begin to die from tropical diseases.

Hot planet:
"Since 1980, the earth has experienced 19 of its 20 hottest years on record, with 2005 and 1998 tied for the hottest and 2002 and 2003 coming in second and third." source:
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/fcons.asp

Mauna Loa data:
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/sio-mlo.htm

Evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


Stu
If there have been jumps, that indicates that there have also been declines or at least the lack of jumps. If "global warming" is SO true why don't these jumps occur each and every year? Isn't Mauna Loa right close to a volcano? Maybe the volcano is releasing CO2 and man has nothing to do with it. That the planet is undeniably getter warmer according to you or who? I remember just a few years ago that the great fear was the coming ice age. Maybe you are too young to remember or just have selective memory and only remember what supports your THEORY. "Global warming" can never be proven any more than the THEORY of evolution can be proven. If evolution is a fact, tell me where did the first energy/material or whatever you want to call it, originate. Science can't create something out of nothing! And "global warming" is just another THEORY to try to explain certain data. If I selct the right data, I can support any THEORY that I might propose, but that doesn't make it true or even scientific. You are telling me that you can definitely say that there is "global warming" based on how many years of data. In the scheme of evolution, the whole history of mankind is just a tiny blip and you want to try to influence the course of evolution based on that. What's the matter? Don't you trust evolution to take care of you? Remember it's the survival of the fittest and "global warming" is just the next test for evolution's adaptive powers to overcome.

Liberal lies
truthbetold I'm not sure what relevance it has where the information comes from. It's a global problem, after all. What facts do you think I'm refusing to be confused by? That there have been two large unpredictable jumps in CO2 in the past few years? That there has been a 19.4% increase in atmospheric CO2 as measured at Mauna Loa since 1958? That the planet is undeniably getting warmer? That CO2 absorbs reflected infrared radiation? Which facts are liberal lies, truthbetold?

Stu
Why do you have to go to a UK site for your information? The last thing I read was that the UK didn't want Chevron to continue to study "global warming" because Chevron didn't agree with UK's belief in "global warming" Once again, the liberal line of Don't confuse me with the FACTS, my mind is already MADE UP! Or the equally valid, I KNOW more than you and therefore, ipso facto, you can't possibly be right.

376ppm !?
I'm mightily indebted to you solar!
Maybe I'm not too bright, but all I can really find in your posts that is relevant is the 275-284ppm CO2 range (the current value seems to be 376ppm if you believe NOAA), and the suggestion that individual hot days have something to do with mean annual temperatures (surely there's a big difference?).

I'm sorry to say it, but your words above read as if you have cut and pasted at random from the writing of anti-global warming propagandists. What does it all mean?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1324379,00.html
links to an article about the two large recent increases in CO2 that can't be explained by El Nino.
It's not cyclical.
It's an experiment that we've never tried before, to drastically increase atmospheric and oceanic carbon dioxide. Like all good science, it's too early to be absolutely sure, but unfortunately the results could be catastrophic before we are absolutely sure.
We can be pretty sure now, and I'm afraid that's good enough for me!
Don't you want your piece of the carbon credit cash?

stu
Now follow closely,you will learn that we are living in a unique time on earth,and no matter what humans do,we have no influence on a Global scale.
The extended Vostok record of climate now enables scientists and others to compare the climatic evolution of the present-day interglacial period (often referred to as the Holocene warm period) in which we are living, with previous periods of global climate warming. As judged from this detailed record which encapsulates the main trends in global climate change, the long, stable Holocene period (the last 10,000 years) appears to be a unique feature of the Earth's climate during the last 420,000 years.
I know you would never find actual facts on a liberal blog, so I'am more than happy to help.

Stu
CO2 mixing ratios from 1006 A.D. to 1978 A.D. The air enclosed in the three ice cores from Law Dome, Antarctica has unparalled age resolution and extends into recent decades, because of the high rate of snow accumulation at the Law Dome drill sites (Etheridge et al. 1996). Etheridge et al. (1996) reported the uncertainty of the ice core CO2 mixing ratios is 1.2 ppm. Preindustrial CO2 mixing ratios were in the range 275-284 ppm, with the lower levels during 1550-1800 A.D., probably as a result of colder global climate (Etheridge et al. 1996). The Law Dome ice core CO2 records show major growth in atmospheric CO2 levels over the industrial period,

(except during 1935-1945 A.D. when levels stabilized or decreased slightly.)

Try and explain then,why in the thirtys we had the hottest days in recorded history.
If co2 levels were lower during that period.

Acetone
partsmom try this link: (or search "MSDS acetone")

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetone.html

Acetone is a very commonly used solvent, and in practice is completely safe with appropriate handling and good ventillation.
The MSDS information always looks alarming but you'd have to inhale it well past the point you could stand, or drink the stuff, for it to be a major concern. There are much nastier organic liquids out there, and some of them are sold by republicans ;-).

Monty
I never said hydro was a solution,I refered to it in the context of cheap and polution free.
I personally still advocate neuclear energy.
But for what it is worth,I could really care less if the cost of electricity rises ten fold,or CA. has blackouts.
I live exclusively on solar.
I will on the other hand,say I told you so,to the left who voted in this legislature.

I was born in Sacramento in 54,and this state has been going downhill since the late 60s.
I would be very happy if half the people would leave because of higher energy costs.
But im afraid the damage to our state is only going to increase,this is why I advocate neuclear over petroleum fired plants.

Cash!!!
Highest EVER carbon dioxide levels (we can measure historical values using polar ice columns) since plants started photosynthesis. That's not cyclical. It's humans burning fossil fuels. The temperature trend is following the CO2 trend closely, as you should expect.

Mr. Driessen clearly has no imagination. Good republicans everywhere should be dreaming up ways of making a killing trading carbon credits and selling eco-friendly technology. Has the US ratified Kyoto yet? Get on to it quick smart and make some cash! Can't you think how to?

Solar
Sorry, I live in California. Was raised in California. And work with California water issues on a daily basis. Yes, I know all about the SWRCB, RWQCBs, DWR, the peripheral canal, the QSA between IID and SDCWA, MWD, and CVWD, the Chino Basin desalter, the fish trucks in the Delta, the mammoth fossils at Diamond Valley Lake, etc., etc. Trust me (or don't). Hydro is not going to save America's energy-wasting rear-end (I had to censor the actual word I used).


And to those who want "solutions" instead of "bemoaning," maybe we could start on those as soon as we agree on the facts. Why waste breath on solutions when you don't even agree there's a problem? That's o.k., the next few years will prove who is correct. What will be will be, regardless of you or me.

toxic solvents
Does anybody know how toxic acetone is? It's one of the few effective solvents that is still legal, and I heard (second- or more- handed) that the Gore family has financial interests in acetone manufacture. Anybody know if it's actually true?

alternates
The Santa Ana River does have a small hydro power station where it comes down out of the mountain; below that there is a large flood control dam, but I don't think it's used for power--too erratic and too shallow, I would think.
I live in a windy area in a southern California mountain pass. A neighbor put up a wind generator several years ago, told my husband that it cost something like $20K, partially offset by subsidies. After a few years it disappeared, don't know the story but obviously became more trouble that it was worth. I have heard from wind farm investors that the maintainance is horrific after a few years.
One problem with hydrogen as fuel is that it costs as much energy to split the dihydrogen monoxide as you get back, not including processing losses, as you generate by oxidizing it. In short, net energy loss.
The theory about Freon R12 is that if and when it does get into the upper atmosphere, the sun's radiation splits it up into chlorine and fluorine, which then react with ozone, turning it into O2 and then bounce off looking for more ozone to react with. A good part of the leakage into the atmosphere could have been prevented by designing air conditioning systems (especially in cars) with self-sealing fittings so that a leak wouldn't empty the whole system. But if chlorine in the upper atmosphere is a problem, have you ever heard anybody talk about swimming pools? How much chlorine evaporates from pools in a summer?

truthbetold
Your welcome buddy'

Pistol : You write
Pistol writes: Saturday, October, 21, 2006 7:47 PM
solar
Facts, and informed opinion always help. I am aware of the nuclear power option. If things ever got to the point of oil costs threatening our economy, i have no doubt that nuclear plants would spring up like weeds. Money talks. In the meantime, the cost of oil has pretty much kept pace with inflation, so at its current level its not a real threat, even though the price tends to rise in leaps that are nasty to people that get used to the last plateau. So when the price is static for a while they go out and buy guzzlers, gas gets costly, VW takes over, gas gets cheap, more guzzlers, gas cheap, Honda arrives, etc.
The storage problem is important for utilization of direct sunlight, which goes off at night. Sunlight use, maybe by steam engines, could well be used to handle the A/C overload which also is a daylight occurance. I remember reading an interesting article about a sun powered steam engine. Quite effective, but storage a problem.

You will get no arguement from me,I agree.
Just because I sell Solar,I do not advocate it for all.
I specialize in off grid systems,you know remote cabins,you can live just as if you were in the city,the cost in Calif. to bring power to a house one quarter of a mile off the power grid can cost as much as a two hundred thousand dollars,and you still have a monthly power bill.
My system cost is roughly starting eighteen thousand to sixty thousand,and no bill each month.

Jimmy Carter
Actually, from what I have read, we don't have to do that. The libs are doing it to themselves. They have less children and abort more than conservatives, so we are winning the population war. I forget where I read it on the internet, but the libs have something like 1.83 children and the conservatives 2.47 on average. On abortion, I believe that the figures were like 2 liberal abortions for every 1 conservative one. The article projected that even California would be close to having a conservative majority by 2050 based solely on the demographics of birth and abortion rates. If you agree that 45 million abortions have taken place since 1973, 30 million of those were of potential liberals assuming that liberals raise liberals children. So my rough calculation of the number of liberals who are NOT voting because they were aborted is about 12 million. Conservatives would have lost about 6 million, giving us a net gain of 6 million.

Monty
You obviously haven't been to Calif. I live in Northern CA. and we have atleast 20 great sites,Auburn dam is and has been proposed for over 50 years now,yet the ecos. and the dems. keep this one tied up.
If you are interested,you can do a search for the "Forest Hill bridge" and read about it.
Your right about CA. screwing up the water systems.
The peripheral canal comes to mind.

Solar
Thank you for valuable information

MyOpine:you wrote
Solar
I remember reading about tanks on a rooftop being used to store solar heated water that was used for hot water and to circulate through walls to heat the house. The Israeli have some kind of open sump system that generates power through heat exchange. Know anything about these systems?

I've read about them,great technology,but the initinal cost is staggering,much like solar grid tie systems that sell power back to the utility.
The money you spend for these sytems are so expensive,that my recomendations to customers,is invest the money in land or stock or anything that will give good return and cut back a bit on your power usage,and you will be way ahead when you retire,over the savings you would have gained
with these systems.

truthbetold
I live in thr Sierra Nevda mountain range near Lake Tahoe.
I've been in Solar since 1979,but selling it since 1989.
The price of panels did come
down a few yrs. ago,but went back up due to market maipulations.
Solar is in my opinion,an excelent sourse of power,but the power conversion rate/loss to point of use is at best 30% loss.
Meaning a 100 watt DC panel will have an effective use of 70 watts of power after it goes to batteries then through an inverter to ac
If you are using it to power dc applianced,then it is closer to 95%

Help control overpopulation..
...have your lib spayed or neutered.

Pistol
I got dihydrous monoxide splashed all over me this morning. Should I seek medical help? Am I in any danger?

Over population
Old computer generated population data that could not calculate changing factors like declining birth rates is useless for predicting the future.

Monty
If you believe our Earth is too overcrowded are you volunteering to jump off?
You do a really great job of bemoaning but I don't hear you propose any viable solution.

There are many viable solutions but they are all squelched by politicians who tuck their tail between their legs and run from environmental groups.

OH,, I don't feel a bit overcrowded. Don't ask me to jump off with you. Adios Amigo

jerubaal
"We've been hearing this for half a century now. We no longer believe you."

Yes, well, I can't think of a better reason to ignore reality. 50 years is a blink of an eye geologically. Like I said, don't believe me. Ask Chevron.

Rumor
I have heard that even a small amount of dihydrous monoxide in the lungs can cause near-instant death. Is this true? How much of this stuff is in the environment? Now much would it cost to clean things up. Even if it cost milliions, its worth it if we saved only one life.

Monty
I haven't seen anyone here say we should *not* be more conservative, or *not* clean up pollution.

I do find it odd that not one pro-kyoto type has made an appearance here.

And life is still way too busy, back to work.

jerubaal
I'd heard about that one. There was also the segment of Penn & Teller's Bull***t!, in which they circulated a petition at the 2003 Earth Day freak-in on the Washington Mall, calling for a ban on dihydrogen oxide (I use inorganic chemistry notation), and they got lots of signatures, a good bit of on-camera hysteria- and not one single so-called "environmentalist" or "ecologist" who had any idea what the h**l they were talking about. It was a chemical; chemicals are evil; therefore, it must be banned. Q.E.D. Any student this ignorant would have flunked my high-school biology class. The so-called "scientists" in this movement are invariably PoliSci majors, or sociologists, or psychologists (aka "Psych majors who failed to get their M.D.'s" where I come from)- or "Dr." John Pike of the "Union of Concerned Scientists", who has been pontificating on how much he hates any and all forms of technology and how useless they are for the last thirty years without anyone ever getting him to reveal what he is a "Dr." of. (Hint; he's not a physicist, and his sheepskin is from Berkeley.)

cheers

eon

The Closer We Get- H*LL
The earth is heating up, the more sin, the hotter it gets, closer to H*ll we get!!!

truthbetold
Blondes aren't that stupid, and besides, they're way more fun.

Monty
We've been hearing this for half a century now. We no longer believe you.

eon
I hope you're aware that one town in California actually did hold hearings on banning dihydrogen monoxide.

I believe that smong the facts they considered was the fact that 100% of all tumors contain the substance.

Like beating your head against the wall
But it's worth repeating in response to statements like: "That's a harsh accusation, but the extremist clearly state that there needs to be a radical reduction in the scourge affecting Mother Earth, namely humans, by as much as fifty to seventy-five percent."

Your world, the world in which we grow forever, and the developing world continues to develop, and in which 6 billion plus people is A-O.K., is predicated on the availability of cheap energy inputs. That is now at an end. Don't take my word for it. Ask Chevron: http://www.willyoujoinus.com.

When energy starts becoming *really* scarce, much sooner than you believe it will (if you believe at all that fossil fuels are nonrenewable in the human timescale), the earth will not be able to sustain the population we have now. Let me try that one again: No cheap energy = no more industrial growth (at least not as required to prop up our debt-based financial system). No more cheap energy = no more "green revolution" (95%+ of our fertilizer is produced from natural gas feedstock). No more cheap energy = no more petrochemicals and plastics (at least like you're used to).

There are a lot of reasons to be more "conservative" when it comes to energy resources. The *possibility* of climate change is one. The mathematical *certainty* of resource depletion is another. Math, physics, and geology are hardly "extremist." Well, only when the study is signed by a politician instead of a peer-reviewed scientist.

Solving the climate problem
Let's face it, the proposals by radical environmentalists, including the Kyoto Protocols, are not meant to solve the global warming problem directly. Their goal is to cripple the US and other leading western powers in order to bring about starvation and death.

That's a harsh accusation, but the extremist clearly state that there needs to be a radical reduction in the scourge affecting Mother Earth, namely humans, by as much as fifty to seventy-five percent.

Is she a blonde?
Kimberly, who posts on these sites, is a blonde too isn't she?

Mountain Rose
Laughed and then i about cried. All the effort and consideration of this and that by the posters here and then to realize that the kid from Minnesota has the same vote the most informed intelligent voter does. AAAaaarggg.

A few salient facts
1. "Global Warming" was recently detected by NASA. On Mars and Pluto. Like Earth, both are approximately 1 degree C. warmer than prior measurements indicate that they should be. Unless Exxon has a plant in Sidonia (next to the infamous "face"), this rather suggests tha the primary source of GW is the Sun.

2. The "Ozone Hole" at each pole is the one part of Earth's atmosphere not shielded by solar ionized particle emission (i.e., the "solar wind") by the Earth's magnetic field (which is a torus-sort of like a very big hollow doughnut- for reasons too abstruse to go into here). When the solar wind increases (as it does in periods of high sunspot activity), more ionized particles hit the "holes at the poles". These in turn ionize the ozone, accelerating the ozone molecules until their V/sec\2 (velocity per second squared) exceeds escape velocity. At which point the little buggers cleverly escape from the ionosphere. This causes a decrease in the net ozone amount in the atmosphere at the poles, hence your "holes in the ozone layer". When will it quiet down? When the sun goes into a low point in the sunspot cycle- about fifty years from now. (Coincidentally, about the time the deep-ecos claim it will take for our efforts to "stop anthpocentric GW" to have any effect. Coincidence? Probably- most of the far-left AGW enthusiasts I know aren't remotely into anything involving actual science- or indeed actual thought.

3. The electric car enthusiasts and H2 powered car fans neglect to answer two minor problems;

A. Where will you get the electricity to rechage all these electric cars? You will be overstraining an electric grid that is already taxed to its utmost to cope with existing demand. And you want to plug in practically every car in the U.S. to a wall socket every night, thereby turning a slack period into yet another peak load period, something a power grid needs like a language needs a glottal stop? Can you say "rolling blackouts"? Can you say, "California's former Governor Gray Davis is a genius?" (Somehow, the latter asinine statement from this lot would not surprise me.)

B. Hydrogen is one of the most volatile elements in nature. Not only is it flammable, it decomposes over a period of days, as it genertes its own heat of formation via the ortho/para "handedness" reaction. It also migrates right through ordinary rubber, so you can forget tanking up your car at the self-service pump. To see how H2 needs to be handled for safety's sake, check out any footage of NASA space launches from back in the 1960s. See all those techincians wearing silvery, full-coverage protective suits, plus gloves, boota, and even self-contained breathing gear with integral oxygen supplies? They were the propellan techs who handled the cryogenic lines that delivered the fuel and oxidizer to the rockets. The oxidizer? Liquid oxygen, or LOX. The fuel? Liquid hydrogen. Burdette Oxygen, in my home state of Ohio, has been handling cryogenic liquids like O2, H2, etc., for decades, with great success and very few problems. Of course, their people are trained like the technicians at Los Alamos, and their safety handbook is about the size of the Greater New York City phone directory. Somehow I can't see your average motorist being able to cope with this level of precautions.

4. As for the environmentalists and their mindset, I suggest you read "All The Trouble In The World" by P.J. O'Rourke, or anything by the late Dixie Lee Ray. Both of them put the deep-ecos into the category O'Rourke refers to as "watermelons"- green on the outside, red on the inside.

P.S. One sure way to tell if you're dealing with an environmentalist is to ask them, "Are you aware that DiHydrogen Oxide is a colorless, tasteless liquid which can corrode almost any substance, given time and which, if ingested in sufficient quantities, can cause death?" The ask them if they think it should be banned. The true "deep-eco" type will immediately demand exatly that. I leave it to any chemists on the board to tell everyone else the punch line onb this one.

cheers

eon


The Best Thing for the Climate
The best thing for the climate would be free, unfettered enterprise. Kyoto-like controls will make things worse by destroying the economies of countries that actually have the know-how to solve the problem (if there is a problem).

I realize our instruments tell us that there might be a warming trend in progress, but the evidence is not conclusive, and measurement errors have not been fully accounted for. To assume the warming trend is human-caused takes an enormous leap of faith. Why else would the skeptical, scientific-minded be referred to as "deniers"?

Global warming has become faith-based, like a religion. For that reason alone, we should not respond to it with public policy. That would violate the non-establishment clause of the first amendment, in a much more dangerous way than allowing a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn somewhere.

Solar
"Hydro is a perfect source,but the enviros. won't let us dam a river in Calif."

What? Almost every river in California is dammed. I think that there is 1 major river system that is not (I can't recall, the Santa Ana? Not sure.)

"Enviros" aren't perfect by far, but neither has been California's experience of manipulating natural water systems.

Pistol
There are plenty of DC appliences. They are made for yachts & motorhomes.
That does not solve the storeage problem though.
I think Solar had the right idea. metoo

Batteries
Batteries have a lot of disadvantages. They are heavy, expensive, bulky and have to be treated right or they conk out. Moreover, they are DC. Household appliances run on AC power, which can be efficiently sent over power lines and DC can't. Battery DC can be converted to AC, but here again there is no such thing as a free lunch. Most commercially feasible energy storage systems are physical. Many hydroelectric dams pump water to an upper level storage pond all night when power generatin capacity exceeds demand and they have excess power. In the day, they sell the hydroelectric power generated as the water flows down through a turbine to the reservoir. This is why i pondered the possibility of using a sun powered steam engine as prime mover to generate power for your house and a pump during the day. At night, you switch your generator from the steam engine to a water driven power source. Next day, you pump the water back uphill to the holding pond. A lot of this technology is entirely feasible, but inconvenient. But these things place a maximum on how much can be charged for a barrel of oil. 200 years ago, American industry settled at the fall line due to the availability of water powered mills. That potential water power is still there, although hardly sufficient to do much more than make a small dent in our power requirements now. A lot of the problem is capital expenditure. Any money spent on alternate sources could be quickly lost if the ragheads merely lowered the price of oil, so no one is spending money to set up an energy source that would lose money.

truthbetold
I don't have time right now,but check in tomorrow and I should have posted by then.

Solar
I remember reading about tanks on a rooftop being used to store solar heated water that was used for hot water and to circulate through walls to heat the house. The Israeli have some kind of open sump system that generates power through heat exchange. Know anything about these systems?

Storage
Is it possible to use some kind of batteries for the storage aspect? Charge them during the day and use them at night to power appliances etc. Some of you know way more than I do, but I can come up with somewhat valid questions for you to answer.

OBTW, thanks for the sharing of knowledge.

Storage
One possibility for storage is pump water up hill, and then use hydro power at night.

solar
Facts, and informed opinion always help. I am aware of the nuclear power option. If things ever got to the point of oil costs threatening our economy, i have no doubt that nuclear plants would spring up like weeds. Money talks. In the meantime, the cost of oil has pretty much kept pace with inflation, so at its current level its not a real threat, even though the price tends to rise in leaps that are nasty to people that get used to the last plateau. So when the price is static for a while they go out and buy guzzlers, gas gets costly, VW takes over, gas gets cheap, more guzzlers, gas cheap, Honda arrives, etc.
The storage problem is important for utilization of direct sunlight, which goes off at night. Sunlight use, maybe by steam engines, could well be used to handle the A/C overload which also is a daylight occurance. I remember reading an interesting article about a sun powered steam engine. Quite effective, but storage a problem.

Pistol - Solar
The article about Undermining American Intelligence? Go check it out.

MyOpine
How right you are about the bought Dumocrat party. Eli Pariser, a big shot in moveon.org is quoted as saying after the 2004 election that the Dumocrat party was bought and therefore belongs to them. I don't remember where I saw the quote, but a tech savvy person shouldn't have any trouble locating it in cyberspace.

Solar
What state do you live in? How long ago did you go solar? Has the cost come down since then and will it continue to do so in your opinion?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Pistol & truth be told
My meager knowledge of Earth changing location of it's poles comes from Gelogical studies of the orientation of crystals forming aligned to poles.
I would guess about 10 degrees. I won't guess any time factor. I hope it is SLOW!

The French Company responsible for outlawing Freon had enough money to buy our Democratic Party and the Environmental Movement OUTRIGHT!
The same way George Soros is doing right now.

Phoenix Lady
Oh'and good post too.
I just got distracted by non-normies.

Phoenix Lady LOL
I've never heard the term befor.
non-normies I love it.


The third way...
...is straight up.

The GW Chicken Littles are flaming non-normies determined to control the rest of us because they can't control themselves.

But solar power from satellites would be a lot more efficient in the long run than just about anything else, including nuclear, plus no troublesome end products.

In the short run, of course, the cost to orbit has to come down at least an order of magnitude. But that's what the X-Prize Cup is all about (shameless blog plug). Not only that, but the National Space Society committee I'm working with will soon have an excellent section of the NSS website up covering Solar Power Satellites authored by experts in the field (in addition to everything else related to building cities in space).

As for Gore the Bore, if you've got the time, you might want to take a look at my novel called The Second American Revolution, about what a Gore act-alike wanted to do to the rest of us--and what happened to him as a result. Just go to Phoenix Lady's Nest on my blog roll, then Phoenix Rising Presents, and The Starfield Valley Tales. The novels are all pdf files, free for download.

Meanwhile, we just need to keep reminding the flaming non-normies that they are non-normies and therefore not worth taking seriously. If they don't like it, tough. They can go to AA, Al-Anon, or Alateen for help dealing with their anger management issues. For the rest of us, laughter (including laughing at them) is the best medicine.


GW blinders on
How about the science that says that global cooling occurred after a gigantic volcanic eruption in the past? Do those non thinkers think that they can pass a law prohibiting volcanic eruptions? I personally believe that the world is more or less a self-correcting system and that extremes are not going to allowed to persist for very long. Also, aren't these the same people who believe that the THEORY of evolution required millions and millions of years to get where we are now. Don't they even BELIEVE that the THEORY of evolution will take care of everything? Are they questioning their own 'religion' of secular humanism?

Response to Article
This is by far the best article I have ever seen on this whole business of Global Warming. As Mr Driessen succinctly points out, natural forces are not even considered in the arguments of alarmists like algore. Anyone with an open mind who has ever cracked a history book should understand that sudden swings in climate can affect human activity. The classic case of the Norse experiment on Greenland should be enough to give pause to the anti-fossil fuel fanatics. But this is a classic case of focusing only on the science that supports your political views.

It makes me shudder to think that the human race hasn't really progressed much since the days when we burned witches at the stake for knowing more than they should.....

jerubaal
And those unthinking masses vote!
That is what is really scary.

Pistol
This is a tough one,that involves many factors.
One is it requires more energy to produce them,than they produce.
But,like all energy sources,the problem is storage.
Oil is unique in the fact that you can speed up or slow down output.
With Solar,you need sun,which limits it's capability,Arizona is an excelent location,yes that state could theoretically provide enough power to be totally independant,and sell excess to other states.
But the upfront costs would be stagering,it would cost every person in the state a quarter of a million each to do such a venture.
My figures are'nt in stone,but their great grand children would never have an electric bill.
This is why neuclear is truly the most cost efective means of generation.
To give an idea to cost,I put my system in my own home,and im totally independant of the grid,my cost was fourty thousand,and I could use more,and Im single.
I hope that helps.

talljohn
THANK YOU for identifying the problem!!

"The real problem is that our pathetic education system is so inadequate that the populace is totally unable to think critically."

OMG this single fact has driven me batty up the wall. I absolutely cannot stand it when in law school, I kept getting shut down or laughed at by the unthinking masses who learned in grade school that global warming is a scientific fact that will kill us all. Then I show them satellite thermal trend imaging of Antarctica for the past ten years and satellite measurements of global sea level rise over the same decade, and one in a hundred people in law school understood the implications of 3 millimeter sea level rise per year - that that equals one foot per century.

The other ninety-nine law students in a hundred sent me numberless speeches from the U.N. to discount my measurements.

Solar, MyOpine
Solar panels are an alternative form of energy source. Since you are in the business, can you compare the relative cost of solar power vs oil generated power in such a way as to come up with the price of a barrel of oil which makes oil electricity cost as much as solar electricity. This puts a market ceiling on oil prices. And from my experience with solar powered satellites, solar power is becoming cheaper while oil is not. Do you think solar panel layouts in hot clear areas like Arizona will some day be a cost effective source of power?
MyOpine
As the earth's shape slowly moves to increase the equator bulge, some scientists believe the earth shifts 90 degrees, putting the poles on the equator. There is controversy here. The precession of the axis changes the angle of the axis of rotation with respect to the ecliptic and so changes the location of the artic circle etc. This occurs much faster than any 90 degree shift in orientation, with old star charts showing that the north star, at which the axis now points, is not the same star it used to be, nor will it always be.

MyOpine
I agree that it had to be $, but who got the $? I didn't know about the toxicity of the new coolants, but I know that they are LESS efficient and therefore require MORE energy to get the same amount of cooling. More energy requires more burning of fossil fuels or coal to produce the extra electricity to get the same amount of cooling.

There was also a big deal about retrofitting older autos in order to use the new coolants. The cost would run about $1500 to $2000 per car. I have an older car (1991) and my mechanic friend who wasn't interested in ripping me off, told me to just replace the gas and add a bottle of special lubricating oil and that would be all I needed. I believe the extra cost for the oil was about $6. I have been running the new gas in my car for at least 7 years and have had no real problems. My only complaint is that my car doesn't get a cool as it used to get with the Freon. I believe that car makers had to increase the size of the AC system to compensate for the inefficiency of the new gas.

Global nonsense
It is time for everyone to re-read Atlas Shrugged.
The uneducated (read majority) of citizens are ignorant of the effects of Big Brother helping them (i.e. controlling their lives.)

chr335
What Jeff was saying is,in order to make Hydrogen you need a whole lot of electricity.
And were not building any new power plants in the US. that I know of.
For this pipe dream to work in Calif. alone,we will need three new neuclear power plants,I can't remember the wattage out put,but they will be bigger than any we have built in the past.
Like it or not,neuclear is the least poluting and the most cost effective means of creating electricity,like 10% of the cost of a petroleum fired plants.
Hydro is a perfect source,but the enviros. won't let us dam a river in Calif.
Solar'I won't even go their.

Limit on oil? Hydrogen cars?
Oil is still forming from vegetation or any organic matter entering the oceans or lakes. Even flushing a toilet adds to the supply but I don't know exactly how long it takes from diner to carburetor.

Hydrogen cars cause visions of the Hindenberg.
Hydrogen is light and raised. The thought of hydrogen cars in an underground parking lot of a high rise makes me cringe.

No, it is not an idea. It is a con
On this planet there are 3 and maybe 4 sources of energy. There is solar energy which can be used directly, generates wind, wave, biologic, and hydro power. The second source is geothermal that generates Old reliable and volcanos. Then there is nuclear. I say mayber 4, since hydrocarbon based energy sources may predate the sun and date to the formation of the solar system.

There are lots of ways to use these, but fuel cells are not those ways. And cannot be for physical chemistry reasons. You see, if it is an endothermic or endoelectrical reaction, it will occur at a non-combusion speed, but will result in the conversion of that material to it's final rest state.

If you give us a million years to research, we will be no closer to an affordable, efficient fuel cell than we are today. Does that mean fuel cells are worthless? No, they are excellent energy storage media. However, they must be filled from one of the other sources.

just an idea
Fuel cells this hydrogen that. Tell me please, where is the fuel cell mine or the hydrogen tree? These things are basically BATTERIES not fuel sources. To make a free hydrogen atom, you use electricity from a regular power plant to break water into hydrogen and oxygen. And when it burns it gives it back (minus loss to entropy).
hey it is just an idea besides we are much closer to getting an affodable efficent fuel cell then we are from getting oil from jupiter.

personally i dont see anyway we will get new energy sources cuz people are too afraid of change.

chr335
I agree.
I don't think we have the ability to control nature in the least.
But if we manage to have a nuke war,then all we will manage to do is remove the human factor.
Earth will still continue on as usual.
If you have two minutes,go to this site,I had no idea.

http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/freon1.htm

Global warming is just like outsourcing
... and third world development, and a whole host of other things that would (and DO) bring legitimate benefits to impoverished nations.

When I hear people complaining about the impact that so-called "outsourcing" has on U.S. jobs, I ask them, "Are you opposed to improving the working conditions and contributing to the economic development of third world nations?" because inevitably, the complainants are the same people who profess to want "world peace" and to "end poverty in our lifetime."

Similarly, I attended a workshop two years ago on (which is to say, opposing) globalization. Most of the speaker there complained of the paternalistic attitude of "first world" nations wanting to ship Coca-Cola, and t-shirts, and technology for building roads, and arms to third world nations.

After a few of these speeches, I asked, "But if these indigenous peoples have decided that they WANT Coca-cola, and something other than mud paths through the Amazon, and ammunition to defend themselves, is it not just as paternalistic to tell them we won't trade with them, because it makes us feel better knowing that they're out there somewhere, acting as our conscience-assuaging third world zoo?"

The room fell silent. And at least one brave soul had the courage to admit, "My goodness, I never thought of it that way!"

Nope. Because autonomy and self-sufficiency are NOT part of the plan.

Corporations are tolerated only to the extent that they are willing to lay back and be social insurers. They are not opposed by the Left because they do not create wealth, they are opposed because they DO.

Ayn Rand had it right back in the 1940s. It would really be something if all of the American corporations just closed up shop here and went someplace else. Then what would the liberals spend? What do you have when you have a government that wants to tax businesses that don't exist? If you want to know, you need only look at sub-Saharan Africa.

Oh Please! NO!
Fuel cells this hydrogen that. Tell me please, where is the fuel cell mine or the hydrogen tree? These things are basically BATTERIES not fuel sources. To make a free hydrogen atom, you use electricity from a regular power plant to break water into hydrogen and oxygen. And when it burns it gives it back (minus loss to entropy).

Global warming baloney
Folks,

All gases are miscible. The various constituents of air (except dihydrogen monoxide and ozone) remain in the same proportion with height until you reach the outer fringes of the atmosphere.

Climate, people, is statistical weather. Weather, as we know, is *always* changing; therefore, the climate is *always* changing. At our current state of knowlege (not supposition or speculation) 99.9% of the change is natural.

Finally, everything we do on this rock is as natural as that done by every other life form and every other inanimate mechanism. Also, let us quit conflating emissions with pollution. Dose and route of administration make the medicine. Dose and route of administration make the poison. Poisonous dosages are higher than medical doses.

solar
you think we should be sceaming global cooling then?
I don't quite get your point

my point is green house gasses do affect the enviornment everything does and even if it is negative for a little bit equilibrium will come back. In other words people need to stop freaking out about stuff we know nothing about

interesting
i knew none of this jeff. You are right we can produce sythtic dimaonds dont know why we cant do the same with oil I can only guess that solids are easier to make or we have not gotten the exact pressure right, or unlike diamonds it is not just the heat and pressue but the time as well, I will have to do reasearch on this.But hopefully we will switch to hydrogen fuel cells or cold fusion before we have to ravage jupiter for oil.

Personally i would like for the power gird in the united states to switch from large massive power plants to smaller neighborhood generating stations using fuel cells or somthing similar. it would save money as there would be no need to create massive amounts so it can be transported over wires, make restoring power after a storm much faster, and we would not have to worry about something like the new york black out that occured back in 2003 from happending again.

whew long post

chr335: Your point?
you think we should be sceaming global cooling then?
I don't quite get your point.

Also Char
You must have mis-typed. There is all sorts of proof of greenhouse effect of greenhouse gases. Without greenhouse warming, this planet would be a frozen ball.

All that is being discussed is whether the greenouse gas level has an uncontrolled dynamic effect or if there are other factors at work.

335
Why do you require a religious contradiction? the only point I was making is that our bureaucratic scientists have stopped being scientists. They have yet to produce oil from heat and pressure, even though they can produce diamonds the same way. They don't even have a chemical sequence that leads to oil from meat. However, once upon a time, when we was first doing oil well drilling, they found the oil in fosil layers, therefore it is fosil fuel.

What we are finding out is that there is lots of oil deeper than it should be. Some of the fields are refilling from below. If it is decayed meat and veggies, that is unlikely. if it is solar material that came with the creation of the planet it is very likely.

It also indicates that there is a great source of oil after the Saudi fields are depleted. Go to Jupiter. :-)

husker jeff
Global warming is one of the religious tenets as is evolution, the source of oil, and the big bang.
umm i have never heard too much argument over the source of oil. if there is some religous controdiction to what i learned (dead plant and animal matter put under intense heat and pressure for millions of year) i would love to hear it.

i dont know solar
no i do think that green house gasses trap heat however the extra heat makes more clouds thus cooling the earth

Truthbetold
You caught me a little slow.

The real reason to ban Freon is $
All the patents had expired.
And the pathetic part of it is the new refrigerants WILL MIX WITH AIR and form toxic substances in contact with any organic substance.
Yes, that is what they use in our Supermarkets.
Freon is the ONLY safe combination of gas for a refrigerant.

Prior to Freon it was Amonia. A good friend of mine and her dog were both killed by an Amonia leak when I was a small boy.

Husker Jeff
Excelent point!
I have an idea it goes to the root of the problem.
Liberals are pessimists to the core,they tend to see the glass half empty.
A true conservative,like Reagan so only the good in America.
You and I see if it gets warmer,then we can enjoy a longer summer,or colder,we might make a profit of winter sports.
It's all a matter of perspective.

Truthbetold
Ozone is a transient substance comprised of 3 oxygen atoms per molecule. It is formed by ionizing the bivalent oxygen. Direct sunlight changes it back. Sort of like a gardener pruning a hedge. We do have topospheric ozone but it is rarely dangerous. Concentrated ozone is a pretty shade of pastel blue, just exactly the same hue you see when you look up on a clear day.
Those same ionized bands ionize clouds so strongly they short to Earth. Yep lightning.
They ionize gasses so strongly as to cause them to glow. Yep Polar Lights.

MyOpine
Then if I understand what you are saying is that ozone is being produced by the gauss pattern of our magnetic poles on a continual basis and, I assume, in quantities that are SO much greater than anything produced by humans that whatever we do on the earth's surface has NO effect on the ozonosphere because the ozone down here CAN'T rise to replenish the ozonosphere.

What then was the REAL reason to ban the use of Freon? Freon is obviously heavier than air as well so how does it affect the ozonosphere?

BrianR
Why is there ozone is the stratoshere then? Why hasn't ALL of it fallen to the earth?

One interesting thing
Is that any time we talk of global warming or cooling, we are told that we will have all sorts of negative things. Floods, fires, earthquakes, droughts. I really don't understand how any change can only lead to bad results. Are we at the pinacle of perfection?

GW BS
Our Ozonosphere is renewed by the gause pattern of our magnetic poles. Ionizing atmospheric oxygen changes it to ozone. Direct sunlight changes ozone back to oxygen. (all catalyctic)
For that reason, most ozone is created at night.
Sunlight confines ozone to the ionized band that creates it. Long Polar days cause seasonal holes. Solar flares blast huge holes that are filled with nitros oxide, (Yeh thats nitric acid as soon as it hits hydrogen). Eventually the holes heal "as gas fills the container in equal proportion."
There is no need for us to interfere with nature. It has a 4 Billion year reputation for doing a good job.

truthbetold: re ozone
Ozone is heavier than oxygen, as it has one more oxygen atom in its molecular form. Therefore it will not rise in air (air is a mixture of gases, primarily nitrogen) faster than oxygen would, and both are heavier than nitrogen.

So you raise an interesting point. I'm not a chemist, but logic would tell me that both would, and do, dissipate in air, but why would either rise if the nitrogen in the atmosphere is lighter than both? And, of course, when ozone interacts with oxygen, it is destroyed in the process, as ozone is very unstable.

Also, don't forget that ozone is also produced by natural phenomena such as lightning.

So many things to say
So little time.

Science has become bureaucracy. If you challenge the beliefs of the senior people in the field, you are in the position of Gallileo and the church.

Global warming is one of the religious tenets as is evolution, the source of oil, and the big bang.

Read "Kicking The Sacred Cow" by Hogan. He challenges all of these required beliefs. I don't say he is right or wrong, but the vitriol by the establishment is amazing.

Just one example. Are you aware that hydrocarbons are the primary component of the atmosphere of Jupiter and Saturn and their moons? And comets? No dinosaurs there to create that.

He has a theory of the creation of the solar system that justifies all of our oil as coming from the same source as the atmospheres of those planets.

Big recommendation.

Monty
I have just concieved a GREAT MASTER PLAN to fix all our problems.

We sneak a cannal in from the Pacific to Death Valley and make Death Valley an inland sea. This will change the weather pattern in the LA Basin and solve the smog problem. Evaporation cooling will make most of the desert livable and when PETA, the Greenies & Tree Huggers have strokes or go over the edge and end up in Napa where they belong it will have solved most of California's problems.

GW BS
I read that when CO2 increases, plants grow faster and bigger and use up all the additional CO2 that is available. Nurserymen who have greenhouses use this FACT to their advantage. They add CO2 in the greenhouse and the plants grow faster, bigger and lusher in less time and they can't put TOO much CO2 into the greenhouses. No matter how much CO2 they put in the greenhouse, the plants use it all up and are ready for more.

Ask some nurserymen what they say about this FACT. If you want more plants then all you need to do is produce more CO2 to help the plants grow.

Ozone:

I have been trying to get an answer to the ozone question for years now, but no one seems to be able to give me an answer that makes any sense.
All gases are one of three things: Lighter than air, Heavier than air or equal to air. If they are lighter than air they will rise. If ozone is lighter than air then it will rise and replenish the ozone in the stratosphere. If ozone is heavier than air then all the ozone in space will sink to the earth. If it is equal to air then it will NOT concentrate in any one place, but will be more or less evenly distributed throughout the entire atmoshere. Does anyone know whether ozone is lighter, heavier or equal to the weight of air? If you can determine that, then you will know what will happen to any ozone produced on earth.



My Opine: Yeah, it's interesting
When this topic comes up the libs seem to just vanish.

Maybe even THEY realize how ridiculous it is? Is that even possible?

fair-weather-sailor
You have just broached a subject I have been worried about. WHERE ARE THEY?
I expected them to be posting all kinds of dire warnings, threats and BS to try to convince us to vote for Algore so he can save us. I am beginning to think that they WANT US TO BE DOOMED! They don't seem to want to help us.

global warming idocy
Enviromentalists are nothing more than other "isms" zealots, such as communism or socialism, (which clearly failed) who are seeking another way to gain control over the rest of us. We need to get the real facts (difficult at best, with the screed that the enviros expond) and make intelligent, well informed decisions!
Global warming is nothing more than a mechanism for the likes of Al Gore to seek support for his personal aggrandizement. Smart Americans will see through that and make informed decisions
Michael Kirby

Humans Cause Warming, Because We Say So!
I have always said that this was not about any actual change that may be taking place, nor its actual causes, but about setting up a rationale and dogma for worldwide energy rationing, which would lead inevitably and inexorably to a de facto world socialist government.

All you have to do is look at some of the braindead responses and proposals for responses, and the general panicky attitude.

What really gives away the game on Kyoto is the fact that it did not affect China and India, two fast-growing economies whose increased CO2 output would dwarf anyone else' cuts. Lefties claim that may be a flaw, but it's a start & can be improved later. I say it wasn't a start; had Kyoto been implemented there would be LESS, not more, motivation to negotiate a new treaty that put real restrictions on the alleged "developing countries" that IIRC included Australia (!?) & South Korea(!!?) If hypothetical anthrogenic global warming (AGW) were real, wouldn't it be better and make more sense to encourage China (a Communist command economy anyway) and India to develop in a fashion that doesn't emit so much carbonb dioxide? Here was an opportunity for Red China to, for the first time in history, demonstrate communism is actually good for something, but they got a pass! Hmmm!

I noticed that this past spring, with constant rehashing of the Katrina/Nwallins story and the predictions of an active hurricane season this yr, the established lefties were mau-mauing the hurricane scholars to blame increased (?) hurricane activity on AGW and the pop media was obviously gearing up to blame the hurricanes on AGW if (rubbing hands gleefully) we scored another Katrina or Hugo or Andrew. Then they would hammer away at the notion that this conclusively PROVES AGW & our American standard of living is at fault for the losses. Then - SURPRISE! - the 2006 season was a dud. Tell me: if an active destructive hurricane season is supposed to "prove" AGW, does it follow that a quiet one disproves it? Why not? If some other factor killed the tropical storms in the Carribean in spite of AGW, then why is it not possible some other factor than AGW caused the previous active seasons? Why is every conclusion arbitrarily skewed toward AGW?

We were told back in the late '80's that we had to do something right then, in a blind panic, or we'd all be dead by now. Last time I checked, I was still alive, & I think all of you are too. Didn't Al Gore's _Earth in the Balance_ projections call for us to be pretty hard up by now?

Some time back there were a lot of stories about how rough AGW was going to be on countries copnfined to low-lying coastal areas like Bangladesh and coastal communities in general. Don't the lefties want the hoi polloi to move away from the beaches anyway? Leaving out the fact that these assertions don't prove the warming is manmade, since when are we entitled to regard the present climate as a permanent immutable 'given'? Until the AGW notion came along, nobody seriously questioned the historicity of natural temperature flutuations. Now they're actually trying to argue the Medieval Warm Period away because it conflicts with the unproven AGW.

There have been repeated strange distortions of the accepted scientific method skewed toward AGW, such as dogmatic assertion of authority (e.g. the Royal Society, the Amer. Academy of Sciences) refusal to divulge data and methods (the "hockey stick" model used in _Inconvenient Truth_), cherry-picked data and methodology flawed suspiciously in favor of the "right" outcome, demonization of dissenters from the establishment line. Too many articles get published in periodicals and journals that start out urging us to stop arguing about whetther AGW is true, but just to assume so and move on the deciding what restrictions we'll submit our lifestyles and livelihoods to in order to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.

The established Left is growing impatient with our insistence on debating their established dogma, & want us to move on to the fun part (for them) of having them dictate what we can do and have in the name of an unproven theory. I predict however the one thing you won't see, just as you didn't see it in 2000 inspite of Al Mr Greenie Gore being the Demmie candidate, is serious discussion of carbon-dioxide induced anthrogenic global warming phenomena and the proposed policies and costs to us of those proposals, as election campaign issues. We need to demand positions and proposals from candidates on these points instead of more Sheehan/Plame/Foley type circuses that treat us as flighty easily distracted pop media addicts.

I'm actually FOR global change...
... and warming. If the globe didn't go through cycles, out here in SoCal we'd probably still be dealing with pesky critters like sabre-toothed cats and wooly mammoths.

You think it's bad when your neighbor's Lab poops in your front yard? Try cleaning up after a mammoth.

Pistol
Great point!
I wonder who they will blame when the poles shift.

Movement of the Earth's Axis Pistol?
That is real cause for fear. Guess you know the Earth flattens at the Poles and bulges at the Equator from centrifugal force?
What do you think changing the locations of flats and bulges will do to the stress on tectonic plates? I think we are already finding out. Notice the increase in earth quakes, volcanic activity, bad storms, tsunami, etc. over the last two decades?
I betcha that is the cause!

Couple of Points
Just a point...the problem in LA is particulate matter, not so much ozone anymore.

Hi Monty
Do your eyes and nostrils burn right now?
Edges shrivel on plants in your yard?
Happens often in LA dosen't it?

How dangerous is ozone? During WW1 the Italians decided it would make a good war gas. Perfect, no cleanup, use it at night and it vanishes with the morning sun. OH BUT; When they released it at dusk the canyons cooled down, the wind shifted and it killed a full Company of Italian Alpine Troops. Worked fine. with daylight it was gone and the Germans never knew how close they were to death, Do you know Monty?

Solar
Thermal vents may well have an effect. My trust lies in line with a small book i just read titled The Ice Age. It is extremely scholarly and deals with weather over the last few million years. Global warming as a modern phenomenon is disposed of by page 5. The scientists in the business say climatic cycles are mainly controlled by the precession of the earth's axis, alterations in the eccentricity of the earth orbit (caused by the influence of the other planet gravity) and tectronic movement of land masses which alter currents involving the movement, heating and cooling of the earth's heat bank. Among other items, they mention that the curent ocean level is 6 or 8 feet below the average over the last few million years, and that the current time is probably the only period in the earth's history with ice caps at both poles. Current hot/cool records fit easily into the variations which are a matter of scientific acknowlegement by the few who make a career study of climate and climate variation. Global warming studies based on computer simulations are a joke. These simulations fail when fed old data in an attempt to predict weather we already have records of. Why would anyone would believe they are accurate about the future when they can't explain the past.

When somebody mentions..
...complains about "global warming" to me, I ask them what should be the proper temperature of the Earth and where is your owner's manual?

BrianRlol
Great point'amazing how they use a super computer to project from one year to 100 yrs. with what they call acuracy,yet the same computer can't predict beyond 3 days .
Could it be,like one poster said,GIGO Garbage in Garbage out.

Primus: LOL!
Exactly.

These climatological "experts" are chicken-littleing all over the place about a fraction of a degree of warming by 2040 or whatever, but can't tell me whether or not the weather's going to be nice enough next weekend for me to go to the range, or whether I should look for my umbrella.

MyOpine
Very well said!

liberal_dialog
You are correct in stating you are too young to remember the 70s.
That is when all this happy cr*p started to some extent.
Only at the time it was global cooling,oops ya think they had it wrong.
I'll say again'GW is a myth!
It is like saying smoke makes heat,greenhouse gasses do not trap heat,they are a biproduct of the earth,the planet is causing this,one degree increase is not GW.
You will not convince me otherwise.
The facts are hand picked by the left...yes left'to make their case.
I said earlier that the ocean bottom is at best 98% unexplored,without this data from Thermal vents,how can they have a complete model.How convienient'

BrianR

To take your predicted forcasts even further... and as George Carlin's Hippy-Dippy Weatherman used to forecast:

"Tonite... DARK. Continuing mostly dark overnight and turning to widely scattered light in the morning".

Yep.. the most accurate forecast I ever heard!

MyOpine
Interesting, and thanks, nothing like learning something new each day.

Reminds me of medicine: the one-size-fits-all approach. It sometimes harms some people more than it helps (all those 'side-effects' mentioned in the commercials).

How about: Electric cars where they Can be used without such effect?

Like anything, use in moderation, and based on the diagnosis.

Back to the laundry! (uh-oh, I'm using water!)

You are worse off Monty
You live in the middle of a natural tempreture inversion. Indians used to call it "The Valley of Smokes" You are also cursed with know nothing Liberals who want you to cheer them for saving you and they do not bother to learn the nature of the substances they offer for your salvation.

For instance electric cars, just like all electric appliances, generate an invisible flux pattern that acts as a catalyst to convert O2 oxygen, to O3 ozone. Direct sunlight converts it right back to oxygen so fast MOST people are unaware it happened BUT in the LA basin often there is no direct sunlight due to the smog so ozone right now reaches concentrations where it stings peoples eyes, kills insects and harms plants. This happens at concentrations around 9ppm. Ozone is a toxic substance that is fatal to humans at the concentration of 14.7ppm.
THINK YOU NEED MORE ELECTRIC CARS MONTY?

chr335
I am all for mixing the two. In fact we just recently had the Green Belt put into place around Lake Ontario, and while it protects some hundreds of thousands (millions?) of acres from the Toronto megalopolis, I think it needs to be extended right up to Lake Huron. The country is just too beautiful to be left to the developers.

proof
it is impossible to prove global warming at this time as our climate data does not go back all that far geologically speaking. we humans are very sort sighted in that we forget things very quickly. I remmeber a story from some african country where a lush forest suddenly turned into a kinda wasteland and people had no idea what had happend and immeditally blamed everything from industry to elephants. It was not untill they checked old records that they found out the area had some kinda 50 year cycle in which it was switched between the dry grassland to lush forest.

Computer modelling
"a study out of the National Center for Atmospheric Research details what nine of the world's top computer models predict for the lurching of climate at its most extreme."

Actually, there are about 110 computer models in use around the world. And many of thenm show little warming, other no warming, and some show a steady cooling. It depends on the kind of data you input into them, making the old Golden Axiom GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out, the only Golden Truth in computer science.

The result of a computer model is mostly dependant on the modeller honesty.

Re Global Warming
Elliott, everybody knows global warming is caused by bovine flatulence(cow farts for you lefties out there). They even had a government study prove it.

Monty
You get no arguement from me or anyone else,that we would all love cleaner air.
But to use GW as to effect this is monumentaly prepostorus,to say the least.
As to the use of energy to match americas use'We need to be using Neuclear,it's a no brainer.
Oh'and to green house gasses,just another myth,I personally don't believe it has a Da*n thing to do with warming the earth.
That would be like saying smoke creates heat,when we all know it is the reverse.
Green house gasses are a biproduct of the earth,eg. Volcanoes etc.
Mans part in this is microscopic at best.

I predict global cooling
over the next three months in the Northern hemisphere, followed immediately by global warming in that same hemisphere. It's called "seasons".

The biggest single source of global warming and greenhouse gases is Al Gore, every time he opens his mouth and spews all that hot air.

Tippling Ted Kennedy is all for alternate energy sources, as long as they don't impose into the view from his Martha's Vineyard estate.

If hypocrisy were an energy source, the Lefties could power entire countries for years to come.

question
one thing that has always bothered me about the enviorment debate is that both sides seem to think that nature and progress are mutually exclusive (in order to have one you have to give up the other). Why is that why cant we as intellegint people find a way to have both? That is what i personally strive for cities that are not just ugly grey concrete jungles, but alive. It might just be a niave dream but it is one i am sure everyone wishes would come true.

Monty
'is it not bad enough that we are fouling our air with pollution'

And my return question: where do Any of say that correcting pollution is a bad thing?

I helped raise river otters for seven years, you think I would Want the rivers polluted?

Please do not tie pollution to global warming. If correcting pollution helps with global warming, so much the better. If we correct pollution problems but it has No effect on global warming, then there's not much else we can do, eh?

'Do you actually believe that the rest of the world can use America-levels of energy without totally trashing the environment'

Who says they have to in order to advance? Becoming decently high-tech doesn't mean factories and other major sites of pollution. You will notice one of the other posters sells Solar Power for a living.

---
And I Must get back to work. gah. Someone else fill in more of the blanks, eh?

Disingenuous
is the stated motive of compassion for the poor. The real motive is protection of the Baal economy.

As messed up as the tree huggers reasoning and pragmatism may be, they do serve as a regulator to the unrestrained rapaciousness that seems to pervade our world.

Politicizing Science
The question to be asked is this: how did global warming become politicized?

I'm old enough to remember back in 1970's how environmentalists were pointing to factories that were wantonly poluting and killing humans, giving humans cancer, etc. The Right wing had the same reaction then they are having now to global warming. The environmental regulation of corporations is a plot to kill capitalism, a communist plot, and fought against it.

Well, they were wrong. Strict environmental laws have not hurt captilalism in this country and we live healthier for it. New industries were created that cater to environmental products and services.

The American people know this. The Right wing chose profit over human lives. Have you no decency, sir? Yet the Right wing has no humility today to say "we were wrong about any environmentalism being a political football back then and might be wrong about it today global warming."

But the real question is this: why is environmentalism a political topic? The Republicans use to consider themselves stewards of the lands and it is Republicans that set aside land for parks and public use.

Why is being a steward of this planet a political pole? I would think everyeone would want clean water, clean air and a healthy planet. Parks for their children.

Global warming is as much scientific opinion is it is fact. Pieces are fact, pieces are opinion. This guy states that the L shaped graphed was shown to be false. Yet that's just one piece of information. There are hundreds of studies showing global warming is a problem. He has not refuted all of those, just the L shaped curve.

I watched "An Inconvienant Truth". What Al Gore is primarily promoting as a solution at the end of the movie is better fuel efficiency in cars. China has a law that minimum fuel efficiency in city is 30Mpg going to 35Mpg in 10 years or something like that. If our cars were that efficient then not only would be contributing to less global warming, but using less oil from the middle east. Win-win.

Personally I think it is time to quit making any attempt to promote environmentalism as strictly a Democratic issue. The 1970s and '80s proved that not only is environmental regulation healthy for our bodies, but the anti-capilism negative impact on Wall Street doesn't exist.

The question is what environmental problems are imperative, what's short-term and what's long-term. What can we afford? Where our are environmental dollars best spent? What are the right priorities. If this guy had sad that global warming is a weak priority relative to other environmental concerns and our dollars best spent elsewhere, I'd have been more sympathetic. Instead, all he engages in is the politics of smear and destruction.

Republicans do themselves no favor by being against every environmental issue. Americans know that is just wrong.





Arrogant lefties
It is the height of arrogance for lefties to blame human beings for climate change. The climate has been changning in cycles since the dawn of time. The earth has been warner and it has been cooler. Anybody who believes that man can do anything about it is stupid.
Also, for jdkchem, you really haven't noticed that who funds the research determines the results? Not to disparage the scientific community but that trend is somewhat disturbing.

Slightly off topic

Used to live in NM,
Sawmill shut down because they could not cut down trees with parasites in them beause the trees were "old growth", the parasites spread to the "new growth". Pretty soon there was no growth and no sawmill.

The worst of the forest fires were in areas where no one was allowed to go in and remove the underbrush. When the lightning or match came, there was an excess of kindling. Bye Bye forest.

Yep Global Warming
For billions of years, our Earth has been in a continuous cycle of warming and cooling. (Ice Ages) Anyone who knows enough to intelligently
discuss Climate Change knows this.
During the early years of mankind we were cursed with various charlatans called "Shaman" or "Witches", etc., who demanded mankind
obey their every wish and sacrifice to bring the four seasons and many people were duped by them.
Today we have charlatans with grand names like "Environmentalist" and "National Academy of Sciences", etc., who feed their ego by pretending to save all of mankind and demanding we obey their every wish and make sacrifices to ward off the natural cycle of Ice Ages and many people are duped by them. they use computer models to demonstrate their theory and they do fool people who do not understand all it is possible to prove with a computer model is the program author can program graphics. A Bugs Bunny cartoon proves exactly the same thing. Most people who understand the Global Warming Hoax think it is a plot to sabotag our National Economy. Abroad that is probably true but the local nut case extroverts here are not so sinister, they just want to dance around shouting "Hey look at me, Im saving the World" and throw temper tantrums if you fail to stand and cheer.

FREON? Ask anyone who has ever worked with freon and they will tell you it is very heavy and does not mix with air. You can feel the weight in a bucket. If you release the freon from your refrigerator, it would flow across the floor, out the door and to the nearest storm drain. It would follow gravity till it encountered sunlight reflecting from the surface of water. Ultraviolet is highly concentrated at that point and the freon would break down to form substances harmful only to mosquitos. If you pour a cup of your wifes laundry bleach down a storm drain you will get the same result.
Our EPA is very protective of mosquitos so don't get caught.
I hate long posts too. This keybord needs some Imodium.

Wow, tough crowd.
I'd be interested in hearing some answers to some or all of the following questions:

(1) I happen to believe that the evidence is strong that manmade emissions to the atmosphere can contribute to a greenhouse effect. HOWEVER, assuming, arguendo, that manmade climate change is a total myth, is it not bad enough that we are fouling our air with pollution, e.g. that almost every major populated region of the country is affected by poor quality air? Isn't that enough to inspire action? Here in L.A., it has been shown (and the polluters admit) that the port complex emissions kill something like 5000 people per year over Long Beach and the south bay. Isn't that bad enough? But if most of you had your way, I venture to presume, we couldn't sue them to clean it up, or we would at least be called communists for trying to get the government to so something.

(2) Do you actually believe that the rest of the world can use America-levels of energy without totally trashing the environment, or that there is even enough energy for them to use? We're already spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives to secure oil resources (i.e. fundamentally, we have an interest in the middle east only because of its energy resources). What if those same resources were now being sought by another 2-4 billion people? So, when you say that the "lefties" are trying to keep the developing world from developing, ask yourself this: Is it the lefties, or is it the elite in America? (I happen to think both.)

Solar off topic :P
There's more photographs than artwork, but here it is:

http://kajm.deviantart.com/gallery/

I really need more practice. My wife and I would like to start a webcomic based on her char and mine, which are in the file (We RP them).

..she's gonna kill me if she finds how much time I've been writing posts today :P We're still sorting out 2 & 1/3 households worth of belongings since we moved here.

Otter off topic
Do you have your art work posted on line?
Id like to see it.

Mass extinction
is another thing they also talk about with GW, but guess what?

Every time there has been a mass extinction, it has opened up all kinds of environmental niches- and they've all been filled. Every time.

Not to say I want anything to do with mass extinctions. I was part of the process of re-introducing otters into Pennsylvania (helped raise otters for 7 years), and there are definitely a lot of creatures I'd prefer to Not see vanish.

But the possibilities for new things to crop up: new life, new medicines derived from it, new insights into Creation...

If GW is something that we can NOT affect, then we have to remember there is a Positive side to it. The equation will always balance.

I'm a simple man...

....who lives in the Great Lakes region, and one of the things I just can't seem to understand about this "Earth is getting hotter" thing?

When watching our local weather, they always put up the "record highs and lows" of the date in history. It sure seems like a huge number of record highs were established in the late 1800's... and I think that pre-dates internal combustion engines and the explosion of the industrial revolution.

I wonder why it was so hot then...

Sting Rays
After a second man was stung through the heart by a sting ray closely after the first, some are now claiming global warming is causing sting rays to attack humans.

Nobility
You are so right'I was in need of money,so I did the ...Now I did say I was in need of money.
Spotted Owl research,and we found that they actually prospered in clear cuts.
Also they found a new species,a hybrid cross between a spotted owl and I can't remember the other.
We not only helped the Owl,we saw a new life begin.
Bad...Bad humans!

Otter
The one missing equation left out of their model,is deep sea Thermal vents,how can you have an acurate model if some of the pieces are missing.
98% of the ocean bottom has'nt even been explored yet,there is a whole lot of gasses coming out of those vents.
But if they included them in the model,they would'nt be able to prove their case.
Could it be they already know this?

I looked at the site, solar, and
The first pic: warmer and wetter.

Well, several times this year they've claimed dryer and hotter for the region I live in. Each time they've done so it has rained, and the 'hot' period was just three weeks out of the three months of their first prediction.

Let's not forget also, that there are several aspects of climate they haven't even a GUESS how to factor into the computer models yet.

2nd pic: solar.

I'd be curious to match up their findings with solar experts I have been reading.

3rd: Uhm. Just HOW do people manage to affect temps thousands of miles out to sea, where the storms form?

Are those people responsible for this year's tropical storm season being less than 60% of last years, with only a few minor hurricanes?


glogal warming
jdkchem, govt agencies don't lie?
True story. Many years back went to 25th High School reunion. Many old friends(small school).
One went to Colorado to become Smokey the Bear.
One of his jobs was to study and report on the horible damage that was caused by the greedy capitalists providing low cost shelters and the state of utopia provided by the enviromentalists.
His report stated that the number of trees in pristine nature (keeping man out) jumped from 11 trees per acre to 31. This meant they were smaller and lower,perfect fodder for fires and with the elemination of fire roads they would burn longer and hotter and faster. Needless to say the report was shelved, and he was in early retirement. This and the wildlife management people who planted some kind of lynx hair to justify taken even more land are now our unbiased
gov't workers.

Otter: lol
Otter,my industry is rampant with these idiots!
But guess who is 95% of my customer base,yup'
Conservatives.
They buy my photovoltaic panels and solar water pumps,just so they can get as far away as possible,from these loons.
I've been living exclusively on solar and selling it for over 20 years.
But liberals would never sacrifice anything.
Except other people.

jdkchem
Have you looked at their site lately?
The first three of four beautifully arranged pictures,Right in the top dead center,is about as biased as they come!
Do you have an open mind?
Take a look at the captions....if you are'nt thrown by how pretty they are.
We all know it's all about packeging and emotion.

http://www.ncar.ucar.edu

Global warming
Isn't it amazing how when ever Bush says something the press will have the left on there giving their "side" but they never want to hear the other side when they have a view that helps their side.... the goal always of having power returned to just a few people...(dictators, imams, or whatever.)
People may make a difference in the quality of air locally ( a valid concern to be sure) but to think they are going to overcome the geomagnetic forces of the Earths celestial north and south poles, the suns solar north and south poles, and the galactal north and south poles is beyond silly. It is much like saying do not allow too many people to jump at once or we might knock the earth out of its orbit. Or even better... we had 1 billion people in 1900.... we have almost 6 billion now... maybe GW is due to an increase in all of this body heat! Makes as much sense as Al Gore.... imagine running around in a private jet to tell us we need to use energy saving light bulbs.... which most of us do already!!!!

solar
'I don't "Feel" I think.'

*nods* and just my luck, I am one of those stuck right solid between the two.

jdkchem: so, because government agencies fund this place, there is absolutely NO chance that the people in those agencies providing the funding, could be liberals? Are not some of the people who run those agencies appointees, and if so, who did quite a bit of appointing from 1992 to 2000, and did Bush purge all those people once he got into office?

Mountain Rose
You are sooo.. right,you rightie!
I got called one too'and you're right,I took it as a compliment,it felt pretty good.
But back to my point,you're right,I love this country,this is why I can't put myself in their mindset.
Maybe synthetic material,eg.polyester/nylon cause cancer...have they done this one yet?

jdkchem: LOL
You have no sence of humor,I was being sarchastic,
Though it has been infiltrated by the left in recent years.
I guess you agreed with the rest of my post though.

Can anyone tell me?
What the next scare DuJour will be after global warming dies off.
Im serious,I've been trying to get ahead of them,but I can't put myself in their mindset.
I don't "Feel" I think,and that is the problem.
Has anyone else tried,I'd love to hear your ideas.

Oh let us pray to the gods of nature
Oh lords, teach us to look beyond our mere humanity and see the more important things of this world: the brown slug, the African mosquito, and head lice. Lords, we promise to sacrifice our lesser humans so that not even one bird egg shell is thinned, so that CO2, that pollution above all pollutants is banned from your creation.

Lords, we pray that with your divine powers, you will place us in charge so we can enforce your will upon the ignorant masses and conservative louts.

We promise that we will forever forgo styrofoam, never mix paper with plastics, and jail anyone caught littering. Amen.

oh now now now...
where, pray tell, would the elitist wealthy lefties go for their photo-ops if we allow the "indiginous peoples" to advance out of their quaint lifestyles?

Having to think up a new crusade against the eeeeeevil western nations would tax their little overworked brains.

NCAR
NCAR a liberal think tank created to promote global warming?

NCAR goes back to 1960, which predates the current global warming craze by a few years. 95% of their funding comes from NSF, NOAA, DOD, DOE, NASA, FAA, and EPA.

I have serious doubts that NCAR is a "liberal think tank." Anyone who would think that is ignorant about government funded research.

Kyoto would have brought down the US
economy. Which is One way of 'down with Capitalism.'


'On July 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was finalized (although it had been fully negotiated, and a penultimate draft was finished), the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 95–0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98)[17], which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or "would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States" (TO THE TUNE OF $400,000,000,000 PER YEAR, BY THE ESTIMATE OF CLINTON'S OWN PEOPLE!). On November 12, 1998, Vice President Al Gore symbolically signed the protocol (IN OTHER WORDS, DIDN'T DO A DAM N THING WITH IT). Both Gore and Senator Joseph Lieberman indicated that the protocol would not be acted upon in the Senate until there was participation by the developing nations [18]. The Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol to the Senate for ratification. (AGAIN- SAT ON IT FOR THREE YEARS, THEN TURNED AROUND AND BLAMED BUSH).

Now. Clinton had three years to get it through and failed to make the slightest effort. He knew quite well what the economic cost was going to do to the country: it would have deepend his failed legacy.

I do have to wonder however: with all the improvements in environmental technology that have occured since then, would we be able to do it cheaper?

I'm guessing Yes. I will BET the Dems make the claim that it would cost more.

And I need to keep working, back later.

justpaul
Otter,

I'll believe that Ted Kennedy is in support of open borderd and free movement when he throws open the gates to his Hyannisport compound so that I can enjoy the view.

I'll believe that John Kerry is in support of alternative forms of energy when he stops opposing the Nantucket Wind Farm project that threatens his personal wind-surfing space.

Until then, it's all just more h ot air adding to the problem they claim they are so concerned about.

Bogus
This whole thing is bogus and started with that leftie book "silent spring" in the 60's. By now, we should be seeing dead birds fall out of the sky, and wild animals attacking us for food. The world will do what it does, and we insignificant human beings can't effect it either way. God will do what God will do. We are just along for the ride.

Gore is thinking about running for pres.
a decision that seems to be prompted by Mark Warners decision not to run. Can you imagine his craziness as part of a national campaign? With the MSM on his side, all we would read about is the merits of his arguements. It will be as if no other scientists have determined that science doesn't support his beliefs. I guess it means an attempt for "down with capitalism" and the demise of the US power. Isn't that what the left wants?

I found an example
of typical droning on about climate change on Drudge this morning,
In the paragraph below taken from the story,
The author includes the National Center for Atmospheric Research(NCAR) this is basicly a liberal think tank devoloped to promote global warming.
Then tells how 9 of the worlds top computers came up with the same conclusion...Duh They're computers!
They will always come to the same conclusion,based on the information entered,asking the same stupid question of the slowest computer will still result in the same answer,just takes longer.
And this was all neatly tucked in as fact,in just one paragraph.
You gotta love these guy's.
You can see the story on Drudge called:Climate Extremes Are Coming, Study Says

"a study out of the National Center for Atmospheric Research details what nine of the world's top computer models predict for the lurching of climate at its most extreme."

The most dangerous thing
Is that libs including global warming advocates are so determined that we all march in lock step to their demands that they are brutally viscious toward anyone who dares to not agree with them.
I hate the way the politicains on both sides of the isle are becoming so corrupt, but I will continue to vote for Republicans, becaue I am truly afraid that if Dems get in they will force evryone to follow their rule.
Look what they have done with their environmental regulations.

The REAL problem
Folks, the real problem is not whether "global warming" exists or not. The real problem is that our pathetic education system is so inadequate that the populace is totally unable to think critically. This supposed "fact" of global warming is so full of holes that any second grader should be able to debunk it in his sleep. But we have supposed "scientists" claiming it is the Holy Grail and our puppy dog populace says "Yup yup yup, sounds good to me. That Algore is a real jenius". Wake up, America, before it is too late.

RightMindedMom, on the nail
Gore couldn't even write his books without plagiarising--I looked at "Earth in the Balance" once at a Cole's in Calgary and saw a rather similar style to "Never Cry Wolf" and "Curse of The Viking Grave", both written by Canadian author Farley Mowat. Of course, as Gore's book is US published and Mowat has (rather vocal) communist sympathies, he cannot easily sue hot-air-Al.

Basically, any statement from someone who falsely claimed to have "invented the internet" shouldn't even be taken with salt but rightaway binned.

Al Gore is a fraud
This guy is an insane nut. He tours the country talking about how WE should stop buying SUVs, start traveling by rail, and watch his stupid movie.

Then he shuts down any dissenting voices, who don't swallow his rants. It's politics all the way. If he can convince the masses that he's SOOO smart, he can wield his socialist power over us. Not gonna happen with me. The guy is a divinity school drop-out. He's not so bright. Don't be taken in by his rants.

'Ozone hole'
Something I've always wondered:

1> Methane is also supposed to affect the Ozone.

2> The Buffalo used to be numbered in the 10s of millions.

3> Buffalo produce Methane. The column of methane rising from those herds must have been Massive. And they'd been doing it far longer than the Industrial age has been going.

4> Why weren't the Indians dying of cancer?

I know. I am not awake yet. Sleep apenia... need coffee!

Global whatever

In the 1970's, the so-called climatic scientists were certain we were about to see a new mini ice age. Summers were cooler.

We were told get rid of freon and the hole in the ozone would get smaller. We did, it got smaller for a while, now it's getting bigger. Why ? I don't know. Do you? Could it be a natural cycle?

Socialist Warming
Global warming (or cooling, depending on when the argument is occurring) is a thinly disguised political tool used by the international socialists to bash capitalist countries.

That's why the PRC (Red China) was left out of Kyoto Treaty.

When I was in Canada (a Kyoto signatory) a couple of years ago, there was a raging debate on how Canada would comply with Kyoto which requires their national economy to cut back or pay huge fines. This debate was one the American MSM completely ignored.

The earth is getting warmer/cooler (I'd prefer warmer), and the socialists are getting hotter.

jerubaal
so far I think you are the only other person besides myself who has used the word 'serf.'

I've been hanging around the politics forum where I post my artwork, and the things I am hearing fit the direction the Dems would like us to go in: no borders, uncontrolled movement across the borders, tax everyone to the max to take care of the whole world, turn our military over to the UN, where they would end up dying in much vaster numbers for far less savory reasons, put an end to companies like Wal-mart and pretty much ensure that the minimum wage would be the Maximum for much of the US public.

Now I know they don't say these things for public consumption, but once in a while one can find things they've said in the past which reflect what they really believe (kerry for example, US troops under UN 'authoritae') (another: Hillary- 'we are going to take things Away from you' (slight, Very slight paraphrase)).

Well, at least like Jerry said, there'll be the Elite to keep the luxury-item business from totally collapsing (yachts, limos, private jets) after they've raised the tax for the rich back to the 70-percent bracket and sent the economy spiralling downward.

Hmmm. See what happens when I am up Waaay too early in the morning? I rant. Just wish I wasn't at least partially RIGHT about what I am ranting on.

Gotta get to work around here. Stuck inside- all we've been getting is rain and cold weather, which for the third time this year has blown away global-warming based predictions for weather in our area.

What Climate Control Really Means
Global climate control will end the middle class; it will bring universal serfdom to all mankind.

The really big danger
is in centralizing government power in the context of a massively slowing economy and very tightly restricted economic freedom leading to loss of liberty in general.

Climate change alarmism is a recipe for a tyranny that the world has never known.

GLOBAL WARMING? BULL PATTIES
It's just another way for the socialist Democrats to keep poor people in need of them and their handouts.

In the ideal liberal world all of us rabble will be riding busses and bicycles instead of driving SUV's and pick-up trucks. While they ride around in their limo's and Lear jets claiming they have to travel like that to ensure our safety and well being. Oh, and deliver your welfare check.

Ann Coulter posted an article here last May, the 5th I believe, titled "It's hard out here for a pump." Go to her archives and check it out. She can say it much better than I can and, of course, hits the nail right on the head.
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